Transcription
Uh, briefly, as, um, if you're, uh, if you're dead set and just arguing about the early church, then I'll just leave. But go ahead. I'm interested. Like to argue about whether Trinity is in the Hebrew Bible? I'd love to debate you on that. Most definitely. I'd like to debate you on that one. All right, cool. Awesome. You know Hebrew, right? I do indeed. Precisely. That's why you're gonna make my case for me. Okay, so no, you will. I'm do exactly the opposite. Uh, I'll bet you will. I mean, let's not be arrogant. Be a little humble, brother, because I want to be nice to you. All right, sure.
First of all, as an orthodox Jew, who is the Holy Spirit to you? The Holy Spirit is a, uh, is is a is a way that God, um, man, that God, um, relates and, uh, what's the word, um, it's it's a way that God interacts with the with the world. So then why do you have toic reference where the Holy Spirit is speaking to your God? I'm going to show you because it's a, it's a way of interaction. With, hear my question. Repeat my question. What was my question? Question you asked was, why is it that in our vinck texts, it talks about the Holy Spirit speaking to people? No, and I didn't say that. No, I thought that's what you said. Sorry. No, I said the Holy Spirit speaking to your God, speaking to, speaking to God. It's a, it's it's really it's really it's really an allegory of, uh, of of different, different aspects of God speaking, uh, to different aspects of God. Good example. I'll give, I'll give you an example where, where, where this when this comes into play. One of our prayers, um, that we say on, uh, on some fast days, uh, we start speaking, as it were, to God's attribute of Mercy. Now, if you know about, um, about Jewish, uh, orthodox Jewish theology, um, you know that, you know that we don't actually believe that God has eternal attributes that, uh, that that are real. And so, and so what does it mean when we speak to the attribute of Mercy? It means that we're speaking to the way that God relates to the world in fashion. Joshua, let's have a discussion. No preaching.
So these are not real attributes. They're fake attributes. Okay, number one. Tell people that what you believe in a, you tell them, explain that what you believe because I'm going to show you in your, in your T. But I want people to know that you believe in what they call the, sorry for my mispronunciation, S and the 10. Yes. Okay. So I want people to know, Rabbi, Judaism has been mixed in with Gnostic teaching, and they think it's based on the T. Could you also confirm for everyone? I just want everyone to know this, so I'm not putting words in your mouth, that you also believe in transmigration of the souls? That you do accept the type of reincarnation? Um, it's, it's, it's debated amongst the rabbis, but that is the, that is the general view. S Gan disagrees with this, but this is the generally held view. Generally held. It's because one voice, the sense doesn't mean all voices, the sense. So I'm, I'm glad you're honest. So now I want to ask you this question. You admit that it's one aspect of God speaking to the other aspect of God, right? Yes. Good. So a literal thing, um, none of the rabbi interpret this as, none of the commentaries, um, interpret these these MIM as as literal, um, they they interpret as as teaching a certain type of allegorical lesson. Okay, it's, yeah, but but the, uh, but the literal read is different aspects. Okay, it's irrelevant whether you take it literally or allegorically. Even if we, with your interpretation, what is it telling you? What are you supposed to learn from the spirit speaking to God? So God is speaking to himself in a different moment. What are you supposed to learn from that? Well, it, it really depends on which aspects that it mentions. Usually, when it mentions God, just, um, just as, uh, as we would say, Stam, as a just God, in, in the name itself, so that usually refers to God in terms of a merciful God. And usually the Holy Spirit, um, refers to, refers to God in, in an attribute of judgment. And so we have, sorry, uh, let me rep my question. I don't think you got it. No, no, I'm explaining the reason I'm answering you. So the reason why you'll have the two speaking to each other, right, in a, in a mid, in a mid, in an allegory, which is what a mid really is, um, that's the meaning of the word, um, is, is because it's, it's teaching about a discussion between, between the merciful aspect and the, and the judgment aspect. So these attributes are being personified. So either you're telling me that here we have a case where attributes are speaking as of their persons, and they're not, and I'm still trying to figure out then what are you supposed to learn from this fictional discussion between attributes and our persons, which you didn't answer. You just repeated that it depends on the specific, it depends on specific passage. The Holy Spirit kept crying, enough preaching. Lamentations Rabba 3:60. The Holy Spirit kept crying, "You have seen, oh Lord, the wrong done to me." So now allegorize this for me. Why is the Holy Spirit crying out to the Lord? I'm not familiar with this particular passage, I'll be honest. I'll have to have a look at the commentaries if you hold on just a second. That's fine. Okay, because Med is something that we use commentaries to understand. Yeah, let me see if I can find it. 9, right? Yeah, limitation 3. We find it. Yeah, yeah. Hold on a second. Let me see if I can get an online. Try, try to interact. I don't want to hear too much pring. I'm not preaching. I'm just, uh, just here to explain. Um, hold on a second. You on the same thing I am. Yeah, I'm trying to find the the RBA for you. Limitations. So Safari, I use this as well. You're not the only one. Yeah, okay, okay. Well, three, what was it? Was it 3:60 or 3:6 where the Holy Spirit cries out? Sorry, where the Holy Spirit cries out. Yeah, I'm looking for that thing. Let me see. In the meantime, while they're getting this together, everybody just go ahead and hit the like button as you guys are coming in. Helps the stream. Hit the algorithm. So everybody smash the like button. Like if you're Disobedience, go ahead and 4:34, strike it right in its mouth. All right, everybody, hit that like button. We got almost 2,000 people in here already. So let's get the likes up to 2,000. Ladies and gents. Okay, if you can't find it, that's fine. I'll give you others. But I haven't found it yet. Okay, that's fine. Okay, well, have you managed to find it in the? I'm not going to be able find it either. But, uh, I, I do have this, uh, check that should be probably easier to look through. Yes. And right here, I just W to Psalm five. Well, I, okay, you can. Yes, I have it here. Quoted the Hebrews here. I quote it accurately. I just want the Holy Spirit responds and says, "To cause those who love me to inherit substance." So you believe the Holy Spirit speaks, right? Yeah, in, uh, in, in a manner of speaking, yes. Yeah, he's speaking, right? In a manner of speaking. The Holy Spirit speaks. I don't know what manner of speaking is either. He speaks or he doesn't. Like God speaks. So God speaks in a manner. So you admit the Holy Spirit has a personal dimension, right? Um, in the same way that God does. Yeah. Well, thank you. You're now one step closer to the Trinity. Good job. I thought you're going to refute me. Good. So you admit that the Holy Spirit has a personal mention in the same way that God does. So now, because it's an aspect God, okay, and that aspect is a personal aspect. Is it a personal aspect that it can interact with God in the way that God interacts with with himself? Yes. So when God interacts with himself, is he really interacting in a way that there is a differentiation within God? So that these different aspects, they are personal aspects that truly interact, or are you saying God is a schizoph Fric? Neither. It's a, it's it's a way in, it's a way in which that in reality, it's not actually happening, but it's a thing. Al, it's fake. It's not reality. So can, let me finish my sentence, please. Not if you're get, I thought you gonna be polite. Let me finish my sentence. Okay, go ahead. Um, it's not that it, it's not that the, they're talking to, that God is talking to himself in reality, because God has no to talk himself in in reality. All that this is is the rabbis teaching us lessons about God by speak to himself. Josh, you know, I cut you up because you repeated the same point five times, but you haven't refused. You haven't actually argued against the point I've made. Yes, I have, because you said God is not speaking in reality. So let me repeat my objection. So when God gives you the Jew the impression that the spirit is speaking and interacting with him, you're saying that's not reality. So he's play acting. You said it's not reality. So what lesson am I supposed to learn without your rabbis brainwashing me to say, no, this is not real? If I read the text and I have the spirit interacting with you and with God, and God is an act of spirit, without your rabbis brainwashing me, this is the rabbis. You're quoting the rabbis. Are you cutting me off? No, I'm quoting their admission. The spirit speaks. Now, their explanation is not what I'm endorsing. Do you understand the difference? Okay, so let me repat. Who say, who's saying says it in the passage? You have right there. The says in her left hand, rich is and honor. In length of days. What he say? Did he say this is not love substance? That's his interpretation. Where does he say it's not reality? Where did he say it's not a reality? He's interpreting the, the left hand as as a, as as as one thing, and the right hand is another thing. No, well, my right hand is not my left hand. But where did he say when the spirit responds and says, "To cause those who love me to inherit substance"? Where does he say that's not reality? Huh? It's in front of me. Show me where. You just said what he said that in the medis never. The medis never speaks and and explains itself. That's not what a medish does. Totaling of what a med is. Can we go back to the first? Okay, Josh, let's go back to the first point. You just confirm what I said that if I just read this without your Rabbi commentary, because you just said to everyone's being recorded that this is not explaining itself. That's exactly my point. M. So if I don't let your rabbis brainwash me in order not to see what this plainly says, then the plain reading is the spirit is a person, not like you and me. I'm not saying he's flesh and blood, distinct from God, who interacts with God and with with Israel. That was my point. I don't need your RBI interpretation. I want the plain reading of the text right here. Plain reading. I don't need your rabbis. I don't believe them, just like you don't believe my Christian rabbis. So if I deal with the text and put it your commentary in mine, even a blind man can see the spirit is personal. He speaks and engages. He can be grieved, and he speaks with God. That's now a step closer to the Trinity. I have a question for you. Good. In this passage, you say that the Holy Spirit, is it? Now, I'm, I'm not, I'm not going to contradict what you said. I'm just asking, where do you actually see in this specific passage that the Holy Spirit is speaking to, speaking to God? Oh, I didn't say here. It was the other one. Limitations Rabba, right? But, but you are saying it about this one. No, no. Said the Holy Spirit speaks, and the Holy Spirit responds and says, "If I'm responding, that means I'm hearing and interacting to cause those who love me." That's a personal pronoun, last time I checked. Me. Yeah. Okay. So I don't care how your rabbis interpret, just like you don't care how my Christian scholars interpret it, okay? Commentary that is what is at the end of the day. I'm going to ask you a third time because we're spending week. Can you show me in this passage where your Rabbi allegorized this? I know that you have rabbis that try to allegorize statements here. Where does he explain it the way you did to try to get around it? Well, because, because when you look at, at the, at the verse that he's, that he's interpreting here, you see that what he says has very little to do with the verse itself. Therefore, it is an allegory of the verse. Yeah, I didn't ask for your explanation. I asked for his. Stop reading into him what you think he means. Now, the Heavenly voice, is the Heavenly voice an allegory? The bat that you rabbis refer to, is that an actual voice that you can hear from God? The basal is, is it literally means a daughter of a voice, which means that it's, um, which means that it's, um, it's like a prophecy, but less than a prophecy. Yes, I, I know that. But is it, you allegorize that, or you going to believe that it's actually God speaking in some sense? I'm not saying he speaks like me. It's, it's not, it's not, it's not the direct word of God. It's the indirect word of God. And is it God indirectly speaking? Yes or no? Yes. Indirectly. Good. Good. Because according to what I just read here, the Heavenly voice is the Holy Spirit speaking. Yeah, it's right. It's something which is less than prophecy, which is why, which is, which is why if you look at other parts of the, uh, of of the rinic canon, you can see that, uh, that prophecy is the, is the, is the top level of of communication between man and God. The second level down is regular Holy Spirit talk, and the third level down is, um, is the basal. Okay, maybe I wasn't clear. According to this source, the batle is the Holy Spirit speaking. Which part you didn't get? The Heavenly voice. It says, this is where the Holy Spirit spoke three times here. Rabbi Alar said that the Holy Spirit appeared in three places in the court of Shem, as it says, and Judah recognized and said, "She is more righteous than I." Perhaps he did not say this, but rather someone else said it in his presence. A Heavenly voice went forth and said, "Here's a second time, she is more righteous than he." In the court of Samuel, as it says, "Here I am, testify against me before the Lord and before his anointed." And they said, "You have not defrauded us." A holy voice went forth and said, "He is telling the truth in the matter." In the court of Solomon, as it says, 1 Kings 3:26, "Give her the living child and by no means kill her, kill him. She is his mother." A Heavenly voice went forth and said, "She is his mother." So according to your rabbis, in these three passages, she is his mother. That was the Heavenly Voice. Who is the Holy Spirit? Yeah, I, I suppose you're right. Okay, I'm glad you're at least being honest. I appreciate that because I want to get off of this. I want to go into the plurals in the Hebrew. But here's another one. All right. And if you say that you lose Nothing by doing so, beware, for the Holy Spirit cries out and says, Proverbs 21:23, "He who guards his mouth and his tongue guards his soul from trouble." So we've already established, you've already agreed with me, the Holy Spirit is a personal aspect. That's why he can speak. So we don't need to debate that, right? Yeah, sure. Okay. All right, that's good. Now, I'm going to use kab.org because I don't want to use a Christian translation because you're going to say, "Ah, Christian translation butchering it." All right, okay. Let's go here. And you to read the Hebrew, right? Sure. Oh, okay. I know what your answer is going to be, but I want people to hear it for themselves. Okay. All right, right here. Now, let me see. Let me. I have to. Do you have it? Because I got to. Oh, let me make this screen a little smaller. I have it. I have it. Okay. Now, you admit that here, elim, right? Yeah. Okay. So we're not gonna debate. It's a spirit of God. So you have Elohim and the spirit of God, right? Now, this verb hovering. Yeah. You know, it's used one other place, right? In the, just see if I can remember. I'll tell you where. Here, I'll get it for you. Omy 3:211, because I'm want to see. I want to see if you're. And I, I give you a benefit that you're honest. You're not just for pics. Deuteronomy 3211, talking. Hold on a second. Yeah, says. Okay. So I want everyone. So here it's liking God to an eagle that hovers over its fledglings. Right? Does it say that about God? Yeah. So the Lord guided them alone, and there was no alen. Does. Okay. So we agree. Now, here it says the Lord is being likened to an eagle that hovers over its fledglings. I want to see if you understand the metaphor. The metaphor of an eagle hovering over its nest, that's because it's going to protect the nest and provide for those in the nest, right? Because it's like God doing that for you in the desert. Think for a second. Yeah, read it so you don't think I'm making it up. I'm just thinking. I'm. Let me think for a second. Go, go. Ah, Josh. Right. Go ahead. Yeah. So Eagles, obviously, is a type of bird. So they, uh, so they look after. They look after their, um, their, um, their b, the baby birds. Yep. Um, and the way they do that is they, they hover over them, make sure that, uh, that the prey don't come and take them or that nothing happens. But that shows awareness on the part of the, because the eagle must know that's her nest and not someone else's nest, right? Yeah. So that shows that the eagle has awareness, of course. Okay, I'm glad you're man. You, you're, I'm starting to respect you a lot more. And because it has awareness, it's aware these are my young. I have to protect them, right? Yeah. All right. Now, let's go back to Genesis 1. What does it say about the spirit then? Because it uses the same verb. What does this imply about the spirit's cognition? I see. I see what you're trying to say. You're trying to say that because it uses the word hovering, that therefore it also implies awareness. Now, I'm not going to deny that the spirit of God, which I don't see as distinct from God, as, um, is aware. I wouldn't disagree with that. Good. However, I would disagree that you can actually tell it from this verse. Not, not for any real reason, but doesn't look like it from that particular verse. Yeah, don't jump the gun. I'm GNA show it to you because you've already established two facts. Number one, the spirit of God and God are there. Number two, you've established that the verb hovering is used for an eagle that has awareness and that's being liken to God, that God hovers over you, that means he has awareness. But here's the other evidence, which Rabbi tried to explain away, saying God is speaking to the angels. Just before you do, just, just before you do that, you don't actually need the verse to know that God, or indeed his spirit, which we, which I don't see as distinct from him, as has awareness from any particular verse. You don't need that. All you need to know is that God is God, and therefore obviously he has awareness. And if his spirit is him, then of course that has awareness too. It's obvious. No, that's obvious because You'll let me finish the point because I'm going to ask you who's God speaking to, and don't tell me the angels, that's not going to work. So if you were patient, Josh, I know what you believe. Be patient, because in Genesis 1, he said, "God, God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness." So he's talking to someone who he's going to involve in creating, and that's not angels, because angels don't create. So who's he talking to, Josh? No, that's, uh, that's it's, it's, it's not true because involving some. Now, hold on a second. Involving some, involving them in creation does not mean that they're actually going to create themselves. Sorry. You want to bet? It says, "Let us make man in our image and our likeness." There's no need to talk in the plural, "Let us make man in our image and our likeness," if God alone is creating, unless there's someone else involved in the creation. So don't give me a post Haw explanation. Deal with unless, unless it is teaching us, um, the, uh, the, the lesson that a leader should always consult with those beneath them, even if, even if those beneath them are not actually going to take, take part in the action. Don't give me your copot rinic interpret. I know your. Can you argue with it? You AR. I'm gonna argue it very easily. Go ahead. Be patient because in Genesis 2:7, I'm going to show you who the other entity was that God used to create men. Be patient. Take it easy. I'm not your rabbis who give this excuse. I know what you're going to say. I know you're going to say the voice. What is the breath of life that God breathed into the nostrils of man? What's the breath of life? Breath of life. What's the breath of life? It's, it's the soul. No, right? He breathes in the soul. No, it comes in. No, the breath of life is the breath that makes man alive. Yeah, exactly. And that, and that is the soul. No, that is the spirit. Hold on, Josh. Let me show you. It's the soul. I'm gonna use your own books. Not me. No, it's the spirit. Here. I'm gonna show you. Here you go. From your own tanak. I didn't use the Christian Bible. Here you go. Uh, now, here, who created man? "The Spirit of God made me, and the breath of the Almighty keeps me alive." So this is Hebrew parallelism. So see, you Hebrew parallelism, because I don't know if the rabbis taught you that yet. Okay, I learned about this when I did Biblical Hebrew. Ael, don't worry. Can you tell me? Be patient. So you can answer in the second line. The Almighty corresponds to who in the first line? God, because God is the Almighty. Oh, good. So the breath in the second line corresponds to who in the first line? Spirit. You just destroyed your case and proved mine. So the breath is the spirit. Good job, Josh. No. Yes. No, because, because in Genesis 2, it doesn't, it doesn't use the word r. It doesn't use the, it, it says the Breath of Life. Irrelevant. Irrelevant. Over there, we only see, we only see the, um, the verb, and he blew. It doesn't say he blew the spirit into him. It just says b. Here, just like, let me respond to you. Take it easy. Don't manifest. Muslims manifest. Not you. You're not a Muslim. Take it easy. Just like here, it didn't say he blew the spirit, but we know the breath here is the spirit from the parallel. Okay, sure. But that's not the same. That's not the same. You want to bet? Is the same. Let's go. Oh, man. You're getting me tired because I have to repeat myself. I know it's the same. Because unless you believe Genesis 1 and 2 are two different creation accounts. Genesis 1 already prepared me to know who the breath is because it starts with. So do you believe they're two different creation accounts or they're one in the same? You're jumping. Oh, my goodness. Okay, you are. I'm GNA make it easy for you. Please explain to me, please, what Genesis 1:2 has to do with, with, with the verse in Genesis 2. I've forgotten which. Very easy. Because is Genesis 1, 2, and 26 talking about the spirit and the creation of man? In 26, it doesn't say the spirit created man, and you know it. Okay, let's do this. This guy's Wast of our time. In Job, it says that. In Genesis, it doesn't say that. Let's try it again. It doesn't say that. God blew the. Listen to my argument. Listen to my argument. Is Genesis 1:26 about the of man? Yeah, of course. Okay, but hold on. It says, "Male and female, he created them." Now, can you tell me the order in which he created the male and female, just from Genesis 1? Don't go to Genesis 2. Male, male and female, he C them. He C them together. But in Genesis 2, it says the male came first, female came later. But you can't use that. So reading this, is it the same creation account in Genesis 2? Yes. Okay, I want everyone to hear it because he's wasting time. Yeah, was time. Okay, Josh, let me explain how you just admit Genesis 1 and 2, they're talking about the same creation, but one will come and fill out the details. So in Genesis 1, if I have Genesis 1, it says he created man, male and female. Genesis 2 then comes, fills it out. First came the male, then the female. But would you deny it's the same God that created male and female in Genesis? God. But wait, hold on here. It says Elohim in Genesis 2. It says I don't. Yes. So, but it doesn't use the same name. It says Hashem Elohim here. Just Eloh. I've explained that near the beginning. The different names of God are merely different attributes of God. The different way referring to him are just different aspects of him. That wasn't my objection, buddy. Okay, me. If everyone heard your logic, you said because in Genesis 2, it doesn't use the word, therefore it's not the same spirit, even though Genesis 2 is expanding on what's in Genesis 1. So I'm, that's not actually what I mean. Because it sounded like, it sounded like when you said, and he, when, when it says in Genesis 2, and go, and, and, and he blew into his nostrils the, uh, the, the, the soul of life. It doesn't say soul, dude. Stop saying soul. It says breath. Nish means soul. No, that word there wasn't. We're not talking about. We're talking about the breath of life. That's not what it says. Okay. And he blew, and he blew in his nostrils. You can keep preaching, buddy. I want people. I'm telling what the verse says here. Here, hold on. Bible too. Oh, my goodness. This guy can. He's manifesting like a job. Okay, hold on. Okay, hold on, dude. Okay, okay. Blue. All right, okay. Hold on. Let's see what is, uh, nishma. Lexically is the soul. Wait, wait, wait, wait. Read the lexican. Hold on. I know the lexican says breath, spirit, and soul. And also puff, wind, anger, vital breath, divine inspiration, intellectual and animal. And then here in Deuter 20:16, what's the word here? Not allow anything. That's a very. It's a very silly translation. Translated anything that what? Any anything that has a soul. You, you shall not. No, you, you shall not let live any soul. That's what it. That's. You said it's a silly translation, right? Okay, hold on. Translation. Take it easy, bro. It's transla as a verb when it's clearly a noun. Okay, I don't know why it does that. Okay, I don't know. Yeah, well, hold on. Let's see. Rashi, maybe he'll help you. Let's see. Rashi. Rashi. Hold on. Let's go. We'll go to Rashi. Hold on, buddy. Because I'm trying to do all I can to get you to say on topic, but I'll work with you. I'll work with you. Come on, Rashi, help this guy out. Deuteronomy 20:16. All right, now he translated as soul, right? Like you, like it. Any soul. Okay, hold on. Well, you know what? I should give Rashi's commentary. Hold on. Just. I'm GNA. I'm GNA let Rashi help you out. Hold on one second. One second. [Music] Buddy. Okay, he doesn't have a commentary there. Good. Let's go. Now Genesis. Rashi, you help this guy out because you know you agree with him. So they won't say I'm bias. All right. It means soul. Does it mean breath? Okay, all righty there. Whoa, there Nelly. Okay, 77. Wait, so how did Rashi, uh, translated and he breathed into his nostrils the soul of. No, take it, take it easy. Can you take it easy? Let me finish. I'm helping. I'm letting him help you to refute me. Take it easy. I'm letting him. You refute me. He made him of earthly matter and of heavenly matter. The body of earthly matter, the soul of heavenly matter. Because on the first day, heaven. On the second day, he created the firmament of the Heavenly beings. On the third day, and let the dry land appear for the earthly beings. On the fourth day, he created luminaries for the Heavenly beings. On the fifth. All right, we got that for the earthly. And the sixth, it became necessary to create for both Heavenly and Earthly beings. For if not, there would be jealousy in the creation. For these would exceed by these creation one day. So he doesn't really say much. Okay, so you and agree. So I'm helping him to help you. Okay, so you're saying it's the soul of life, right? Yes. Okay. Now, in Genesis 2, I'm GNA turn against you. Just be patient. I promise you, I will. In Genesis 2, these translations are all bad. We're going to go with yours. In Genesis 2, do you agree that in Genesis 1, the spirit played a role in creation? Um, played a role, yeah. Right here. This right here. The, the only that that, yeah, I mean, he was hovering over. The spirit of God was hovering over the. You agree? Okay. Do you agree that in Genesis 2, it's expanding on Genesis 1? It's, it's fitting, fitting in the details of Genesis 1. And do you agree that in Genesis 2, the God of Genesis 1 is Hashem? Because you say Hashem of Genesis 2. Okay. So now, what I want to ask you, consistency. Where do you find the spirit in Genesis 2? What role does he play in Genesis 2? He's not mentioned. I didn't ask. Just like you believe Genesis is an expansion of Genesis 1, and therefore it's filling out the details. Can you show me where the spirit is mentioned and the specific role he plays in the creation of man? Because Job 33:4 says, "The Spirit of God has made me." But according to you, that's not Genesis 1:26. So don't do the tap dance. Because when God said, "Let us make man," that was in the spirit. Spirit. And the breath is not the spirit. So where did Job 33:4 get that the Spirit of God made man? Where do you find that in Genesis 1 and 2? Because it's hearkening back to Genesis 1 and 2. I want you and Rashi to bail yourself out of this one. No. Okay, let me think for a second. Think about. So people understand what I'm saying. Let me show you the verse again. Unless you're saying Job made it up. Okay. Even a blind man can say that Job 33:4 has in mind Genesis 1 and Genesis 2. But according to you, Genesis 2, the breath of life should be the soul of life, not breath, because you want to tap dance. That's okay. I'll tap dance with you and Rashi. I like to that. I need to lose weight. So now, where do you find in Genesis 1 and 2 that the Spirit of God made man? Don't appeal to Genesis 6, because you just said God wasn't speaking to the spirit. So where does it say in your Torah the Spirit made man? Show it to me from Genesis 1. Yeah. And since you don't like the fact that nishat was translated breath, I'm going to show you Psalm 3. Let me go to kabad. Okay. Now, you want to see where the spirit created the stars? Okay, to prove my point that the Breath of Life is the spirit that comes out, not the soul of man, because I'm gonna ask you another question. But see, I told you I'm gonna let Rashi to help you to refute me, so I can take both you and Rashi at the same time. Hold on. I've, uh, I've had a look. I've consulted the, I've consulted the Malbim, consulted Malbim, which is another one of our commentaries. I'm going to with you. I'm going to agree with you, um, that that the specific aspect of, of God that created man was, um, was the, uh, was the, the Spirit of God. Oh, so I was right after 15 minutes of wasting my time. I was right. I had to look into it first. I hadn't come across that. AR. Do you know God was speaking to the spirit? No. God wasn't speaking to the spirit. The who did they say speak? Man to. Let us make man. Then. No, you're not gonna find that in any of our commentaries that God spoke to the spirit. I know I'm not going to find it in your commentaries because your. Okay, all right, okay. Well, after 20 minutes to waste my time, he said I was right about the spirit creat. Okay, now my friend, who made the host of heaven? What's the word? Breath. Don't tell me it's because I know what it is, but I want you to tell me. What is it that is say it again? And the RO came out of what? PIV his mouth. The breath of his mouth. Just like the breath came out of God's mouth that he blew. Yeah. Oh, and you don't see that the breath of the spirit then? Yeah, with the breath of his mouth, all the host. Yeah. Okay, but hold on, hold on. No, no, that's not my point. You wasted 20 minutes of my life, and I'm not getting younger, but that's that's okay. Hold on. So when it says in Genesis 2:7, when God breathed the breath of life, that breath that came out of him, I said that's the spirit that gives life. You go, no, no, the soul. So now it says that the ru comes out of his mouth. Isn't that also where the breath comes out from God's mouth? I mean, based on this, there's the breath coming coming out of his mouth. The ru comes from his mouth. But it says, so now you can't play the game saying it's meaning soul. So now, if the ru comes out of his mouth, then when God breathes, what is he breathing out of himself? He's, he's breathing the breath out of himself. What is that breath here, buddy? The breath of his mouth. So you just admit is what? Say it again. Means what? Breath. Only breath. Are we gonna play that game? It means both. Oh, so you just now help me prove that what God breathes out of his mouth is the very ru and spirit. So why'd you waste 20 minutes of my time when you now agreed with me? Well, because I haven't come across this argument before. That's why. Oh, okay. Well, now I want to show you something from Job. All right, okay. Now we're going to go into plural. I need you to explain this to me, my friend. Okay. First, let's see Job 31:15. Okay, okay. Now, it do. Can you confirm it uses the word made us both? U, hold on. I can't on mine. Yeah. Did not one form us both in the wom? Like in the sh. Right. Sh. Yes, that's the same. Okay. Now, guys, W. Okay. Now, please, you'll break my heart if you lie to me. I swear. I'll be broken if you lie to me. Job 35:10. 35:10. 35:10. Hold on. Okay, can you tell us what the Hebrew is for "my maker"? Hold on one second. Let me just get it up. Um, hold on one second. 35:10. 35. The word here, ooy. Ooy. Is what again? My maker. No, no, no. What is the form of Assa here? Is it singular or plural participle? Ah, well, it's either pual or plural because it's got the. So it could be actually a paal. Al. I know you're going to say it's plural. No, I'm not going to say anything anyway. So I'm going to go with that. Let's say it's plural. Okay. Plural. Okay. I'm not going to go with it here. I want everyone to see here. It says Cal form participle, masculine plural, construct. Yeah. Masculine plural. So, okay. But you're going to go with me that it's plural? Yeah, I'll okay with that. It doesn't really affect me. Okay. So if it's plural, then let's go with plural, like you said you would. So it's my what? Maker or makers? Uh, in the same way that we translate, mean literally means owners. In the singular, owner. Um, yeah, we translate this. Hold on. What did you translate? I didn't hear you. In the same way that in Exodus, when it talks about a specific owner, it says it in the plural. But no, that that's wrong because in Exodus 25:1, 21:5-6, you're assuming that he's being presented before his ruler as opposed to being a witness before God that he's selling himself into perpetual servitude to his master. That's an assumption. I'm not talking about. Because by the way, Orthodox Jews, they don't like to pronounce God's name. They'll say Hashem or they'll say Elohim. That's not what I was saying. I was talking about. What are you referring to? I was I was talking about. Hold on. Let me just get up the verse. Hold on. Okay. Is that Exodus? All right, now hold on a second. Hold on, hold on a second. Sorry. I thought you referring to because you said an owner and a. Yeah, hold on a second. I'm wrong. It's not in, it's not Exodus. I'm WR. Hold on a second. See if I can find the verse. Hold on. See if I can find Ecclesiastes. Where would you list it? Guys, we got a total of 3,300 people watching from Sam's channel and my channel. 2, 200 here. So let's make sure we get the likes up, guys. We're not even at a thousand likes right now. What's going on? James James Rogers, you're a liar, son of Satan. There was no debate about the Trinity for centuries. Stop lying. Go ahead. Go ahead, my friend. Goad. Yeah, let's get the light up. Hold on one second. Before you read, if you go to Judges, J. Right before you read, can you hear me? Josh. Yeah, go ahead. Josh. If you go to Judges chapter. Hello. Hold on. Hold on a second. We can hear you. Ay, he can hear you, but he's telling me where to go. We can hear you. What's going on? Okay, you go to Judges chapter 2, verse 11. We'll go there. We'll go to judges. Hold on one second. Judes. Okay. Yeah, I was just addressing the audience here, guys. We need to get the likes up, man. Let's get the likes up to 2,000 on the on the channel. Um, and Sam, Sam, you got almost a thousand people watching over there. So everybody watching, guys, hit the like button. It helps push the streams. Okay, so everybody hit the like button from both. If you're watching from both, hit the like button on both. All right. All right. Yeah, I know what he's referring to. Yes, I do understand that there will be plural nouns used for singular subjects, but that wasn't my argument. This is not a plural noun. It's a plural participle. It's a verbal adjective. That's different than using nouns in the plural. I'm aware of this. Okay, I'm aware of that. We're talking because you're talking about now verbs, plural participles. This is a verbal adjective. So I know that plural nouns can be used for singular subjects. My argument isn't simply that it's plural participles, not just plural nouns, and plural pronouns. Now, for example, Ecclesiastes 12:1. Can you tell us what the word here for bar is? I can't see it on there because it's not there. So I have to get it on mine. Let me. It's zoomed in too much. So I'll get it online. You want me to zoom? I'll zoom in down. Hold on. Hold on one second. I'll bring it down for you. I've almost got it. Ecclesiastes chapter. You got it right there. Here. I've got it now. Okay. B e. B. Yes, it's. It's got the Y there, meaning. Say it again. It's got the Y there. B e. Plural. Yeah. Plural. So literally, it's remember you're creators, right? In a literal way. Way. But again, we don't. We don't. So Job 35:10, it's literally, if I translate literally, okay, my makers, your creators, creators. So it's plural, right? Yeah, it's, it's, it's written in the plural. It many times it's written in the plural. Many times. No, not many times. When it comes to, yeah, many times. Many times. I can show times. [Music] When I know my brethen. Humanity. Plural verbs, plural participles are used for plural subjects. Rarely will you find it, if at all, for a singular subject. I'm not talking about plural nouns. I'm not talking about plural nouns like Eon. Plural verbs, plural participles are rarely, if at all, used for singular subjects. So I, sorry, what you don't seem to quite understand is that there isn't really a clear distinction in Biblical Hebrew grammar between participles and nouns. There isn't actually a clear distinction between them. Yeah, I know you have to say that. That's fine. No, it's, it's true. Example, for example, how do you say a Creator? You say Bor. How do you say one who creates? The same word. B. Right? It's, it's exactly the same word. So B, you could translate it either way, right? Because, because all participles are in fact nouns. What a participle is, brother Humanity, in the context, when a word is used as a noun, like a descriptive noun, common noun, it will be clear, like ELO. Well, I don't want to offend you, but I can say Elohim. But when you want to use that noun in a way that's either showing an action, not a noun, then there's a way that can be written to make it singular or plural. So now, what would be the singular of my Creator? Um, my Creator would be B e. So why wasn't it then placed in the singular? You mean, you mean your creator? It would be, um, B. Yeah, you're your creator. Okay. Let's go to your. How do you say your creator in singular? Singular. And how do you say it in the plural? I can't even hear your accent. E. Okay. And how. I agree with you. That's what it says here. I'm saying words. The distinction you're making in Biblical Hebrew, nouns and participles, doesn't really exist. Okay. But brother, Humanity, you just admit there's a singular form of this word. It didn't have to be in the plural, right? Yes. So why are we arguing when you're confirming every point I'm making? I don't get it. You just, because when I brought up, when I brought up, um, the point about about about Bim, you said that, uh, that, um, that that's different because those are nouns. Was these are participles? I'm saying that distinction isn't really real. No, it is real because if you heard what I said, we can tell from the text whether it's being used as a noun, like if I say Adon, or if it's being used in the context, not as a noun, but as a verbal adjective. That was my point. It, that's why I say when it's being used, you can. I think they always mean. I swear, I don't want to waste time. I'll con. Not wasting time. I think this is an important. I don't want to waste time because I want to now ask you another thing. Genesis. Okay, we're going to Jacob. Yeah. Okay. Now, what does Jacob say? "Their God had been revealed to me." Yeah. What is the Hebrew for revealed to me again? Of course, it's in the plural. Now, here's for sure a verb. Yeah. Okay. Say it again. It's what? It's, it's a plural verb. So if I were to say to the audience, literally, it says, "Their God, they had been revealed to me." They had been revealed to me. That to him. They had been revealed to him. Yeah. They had been revealed. Who's they? God. But of course, which is also plural. So there you go. But I'm want to show you. Hold on. What? See, brother, I know it's why it's plural because right here it's going to tell you why there's a distinction. Can you explain why in verse one, it says, "Elohim said to Jacob, Arise and go up to Bethel and abide there, and make an altar to E, who appeared to you." Now, here it's plural, Elohim. But then it says, "Jacob, go honor the E, who appeared to you at Bethel." Do you see the difference? Of course, I see the difference. Okay. So now Elohim is plural. I'm going to show you why in a minute. But then it says, doesn't say go make an altar to the Elohim will appear to you. It says, go to make an altar to the E, singular, appear to you. Why that distinction?
You want, do you want my answer? Please give it to me. I want to hear it out. Go ahead. Right. The my answer, which is the traditional Rabbinic answer, is that the beginning where it says Elohim refers to God in his strict, um, in his strict, um, mode of judgment. And the word, and the word Kael, um, which is the shortened version, is refers to God as, um, as a, uh, as as a in his in his aspect of kindness. And therefore, God in his aspect of judgment, in strict justice, is speaking to Jacob, and he says, "Arise and go up to Bethel and abide there, and make there an altar to to God in his aspect of kindness, who appeared to you when you fled from your brother."
Oh, okay. So if I show you where the word Elohim is used in reference to God being merciful and compassionate, what would you say then? Then there's an explanation as to why over there, judgment, even though it looks like mercy.
Okay, guys, did you guys catch it? Right. Yeah, I want you to hear what he just said. He's not deriving from the texts, he's interpreting it in light of what Rabbinic Judaism says, and he thinks we're gonna accept it. That's fine. I'm expecting you to accept it. Okay, but you're here, you're trying to refute me from proving the Trinity. And you'll, of course, you want, you got to refute me. And for me to see the error of my way, you're not, you're actually, actually so far, you've proved my case. But just to sum up why your explanation is not going to make sense, I'm going to show you. Number one, guys, he admits this says Elohim said to Jacob, "Arise and go up to Bethel and abide there, and make there an altar to El singular, who appeared to you when you fled from your brother Esau." Then he admits, I just want people to remind what you just admitted. He built there an altar and he called the place El Bethel. I'm saying, so it doesn't sound like the letter L, Bethel, God of the house of God. For there, Elohim, they had been revealed to him. He admits, had been revealed to him. It's plural. So literally, they had been revealed to him. Now I'm going to show you why it's plural, not your explanation. I'm going to show you from Tanakh. You ready? Sure. All right. Actually more than one God. How do we know what, how do we know it's actually plural? It's actually more than one God. It's not just one. No, because when we say that God is one, it means that even though there's a plurality, it's not a plurality of gods, but Divine Persons that make up God. Because I don't expect Hebrew to use modern terminology for precision.
Okay, now here's the answer. Why Elohim said, Elohim said to Jacob, "When you go back to Bethel, build an altar to the El who appeared to you." Here's the answer, buddy. Genesis 31:10-13: "And it came to pass at the time the animals came into heat that I lifted up my eyes and saw in a dream, and behold, the he-goats that mounted the animals were ring-speckled and striped. An angel of God said to me in a dream, 'Jacob.' And I said, 'Here I am.' And he said, 'Now lift your eyes and see that all he-goats mounting the animals are ring-speckled and striped, for I have seen all that Laban is doing to you. I am the God of Bethel.'" Who's the God of Bethel? God is the God of Bethel.
Okay, let's try it again. "An angel of God said to me in a dream, 'Jacob.'" Angel of God. I know what you're saying. You want to prove from this that therefore the angel of God is God because he speaks as if he is God. I would like to refute you on this. Let me prove it and refute you. Because your attention to Deuteronomy chapter 29. Because in Deuteronomy chapter 29, yeah, I know I'm waiting for you to make so I can refute it. Go ahead. I'm gonna let you have it. Says, "Moses summoned all Israel and said to them, 'You have seen all that Hashem did before your very eyes in the land of Egypt to Pharaoh and to all his courtiers and his whole country, the wondrous feats that you saw with your own eyes, those prodigious signs and marvels. Yet to this day, God has not given you a mind to understand or eyes to see or ears to hear. I led you through the wilderness 40 years. The cloth on your back did not wear out, nor did the sandals on your feet. You had no bread to eat and no wine or other intoxicant to drink. You may know that I am Hashem your God.'" Is Moses God? No. Of course not. No one. I respond to you because I knew you're going to go. See, you think I don't know your arguments. Number one, the context makes clear that God is speaking through Moses so that the speakers can collapse, so that Moses doesn't have to say, "God said," because you already started the narrative by Moses telling you it's God speaking. In this passage that I gave you, it didn't have the angel of God saying, "Thus says the Lord," "This is what the Lord says to you, Jacob." It's a false analogy. So do say that there. Either it doesn't say, "Thus said the Lord." Moses doesn't say that. You just read it that Hashem said, Hashem did. So he already began by identifying Hashem. He starts by referring to God in the third person, and then he refers to God in the first person as if he is God. Did you hear?
Okay, repeat my objection. Let's see if you understood my objection. Your objection is that over there, the context makes it clear that, um, that Moses is quoting God. I would argue that that's clear. Every time that the angel quotes God. No, that's where I'm now going to bring my second objection to your argument. Genesis 48:15-16. See, buddy, I've heard your arguments. You haven't heard mine. You should have spent time reading and watching my rebuttal so you'd be better prepared. No, because here, Jacob is blessing his grandchildren, and he blessed Joseph and said, "God before my fathers Abraham and Isaac walked, God who sustained me as long as I'm alive until this day. May the angel who redeemed me from all harm bless the youths." Now, the verb "bless" is it plural or singular? Singular. Who's blessing the grandchildren? God wants the angel. So Jacob wants the angel to bless the youths. And who redeemed Jacob from all his, all the evil? The angel. So why did he begin by mentioning God of Abraham and Isaac? God. He's talking to God. And ask, he's talking to the children, and he's using the same language. "God before my fathers Abraham and Isaac walked, God who sustained me as long as I'm alive until this day." The angel. He's using the same speech for God and the angel. So I'm gonna ask you the question. It's a prayer. Did you let me finish the point? Or you getting excited? All right. I, I'll God. He's praying to God, but all of a sudden he uses the singular verb, "May he bless." What happened to God? He forgot about God. He started with God, but ends up with the angel blessing them. So where's your God in this prayer? He's, he's asking, he's asking God to get the angel to bless. That's not what it says. Stop distorting the Hebrew. He's speaking God, God, angel. May he. He didn't ask God to have the angel bless. He's speaking to his grandchildren and invoking the angel to bless. He didn't say, "God, can you have the angel bless them?" Stop butchering the Hebrew, dude. He's not butchering the Hebrew. At first, then he addresses the angel. Say it again. First, he addresses God, then he addresses the angel. So why is it then singular verb? Why isn't it plural at that point? He's just addressing the angel. So he forgot about God all of a sudden. Forget about God. He's just not addressing him at this point. No, you know why? Because the God of Abraham is the angel who said, "I'm the God of Bethel." No, I'm quoting your Tanakh, and all you can say is no.
All right, how about because, because, okay, answer me this. Why would it be that the messenger of God, I, because that's what the word mal literally means, a messenger, why would it be that God's messenger is God? That doesn't even make sense. Because God tells us he is God in Exodus 23. I'm going, I'm already anticipating you, brother. Take it easy, man. The messenger of God isn't God because the messenger of God is a messenger. Guys, notice messenger. It's not me, buddy. But if you're my messenger, messenger, and you're human, I'm human. Does that mean because you're my messenger, you're not human? No. So wait, wait. You're the messenger of me, and because you're not me, that means you're not human because I'm human and you're not me, so you're not human? No, that's a double negative. That's exactly your logic. Because the messenger is not the God that sent him, but he has the nature of God. That's why we say that Old Testament teaches the Trinity. Here, no. Okay, just read. Messenger of God is a vehicle for God to speak to people, like just like Moses, just like. Okay, can you show me then where it says of Moses, "May Moses bless the lads," or "My name is in Moses"? Let me get there, buddy. Here, Exodus 23:20-23. I'm going to show you how your rabbis had a problem with this passage because they had a problem with the fact that Joshua worshiped him. I want to get it to you. Wait, just be patient. "Behold, I am sending an angel before you to guard your way on the journey and to bring you to the place that I have prepared. Beware of him and obey him. Do not rebel against him, for he will not forgive your transgression, for my name is in him." Who is this messenger that has God's name in him, embodying the name of God, who can forgive sins or punish you? Who is this guy? He doesn't need a name. He's a, he's a messenger of God. He's an angel. Doesn't need. "My name is within him." But it's in front of me, right? So, so when when God's name is within the angel, that means there's an added level of divinity that, uh, that means that that we have to respect him more than a regular angel. Wait, wait, wait. I want to repeat that. Added level of what? Of of divinity. Guys, he just admitted that the angel is divine. No, an added level of divinity within the angel doesn't mean the angel itself is divine. Wait, hold on. If divinity is in him, then that means he's not divine. Yeah, I love your logic. I didn't say if divinity is within him, that means he's not divine. I said if divinity is not with him, it is. If div, if if divinity is within him, that does not mean that he is divine. You want to bet? That's because God is explaining. God is explaining why he can forgive sins or punish you. Please don't tell me he will not forgive your transgression. Okay, watch here. See, I knew you're gonna do that. See, buddy, I'm a chess player. Okay, take it easy, man. I'm going to show you that it means if you don't obey him, he'll punish you, but if you obey him, he'll forgive you. Take it easy. I knew you're gonna say this argument. But here's your burial. Zechariah 3:3-4. The angel has the power to forgive sins here. Zechariah 3:3-4. "Now Joshua was wearing filthy garments standing before the angel. And he," and this is your translation, buddy, so you know who the "he" is, "the angel raised his voice and said to those standing before him, saying, 'Take the filthy garments off of him.' And he said to him, 'See, I have removed your iniquity from you and I have clad you with clean garments.'" How does the angel forgive sins, buddy? It's right there in front of you. Yeah, that's what I thought. It's, uh, it's, it's a vision.
Hey, boss, do you want to come back? Because we, we entertain you, but we have other people. Come back. We'll have more conversation. All right, fine. Josh, seriously, you're more than welcome to come back, man. All right. Do you have a, uh, do you have a way I could contact you? Yeah, uh, yeah, I'll put an email address in the, and we'll have more conversation about the Trinity in the Hebrew scriptures and then about Messianic prophecy. I want to talk about Messianic prophecy that even Rashi admits is about Messiah. And then we can talk about your two Messiahs, Messiah ben Joseph, who will be killed, and Messiah ben David. So let's come back and talk about, let's set it up sometime this week. Uh, okay. I put my email address in the chat. So if you want to get in touch. Yes. So next conversation, I want to talk about your rabbis talking about two Messiahs. Messiah ben Joseph will be killed, fulfilling Zechariah 12:10, because you don't like to tell people that you do believe in a Messiah who will be killed. Right? I, I've told people this on many occasions. You, me, before. Good. We'll talk about it then. Isaiah 53, where your Tovia Singer tries to deny its Messianic implication, but admits it in other places. But we'll talk. We'll reach out to you. All right, all right, buddy. All right, take care, man. Thanks for coming. Get in contact. Yes. Bring them up next time. We'll do it next time on Messianic. Will I definitely will. All right.