WORLD'S #1 COUPLES THERAPIST: "If Your Partner Says THIS, the Relationship Is in TROUBLE!"

Couples come in basically saying, "Doctor, can you change my partner? I think you guys should just break up and stop torturing each other or I'm just not the right person for you."

Dr. Orna Girl is a clinical psychologist, psychoanalyst, and a writer. The star of the groundbreaking show Couple Therapy. She explores the depths of human relationships and trauma. Everyone feels like they've dated a narcissist. How accurate are they? 100% accurate.

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What would you say are the top three things you hear when someone first comes in to your office? I often joke about it that that most couples come in saying that they have problems in communication. Now, I understand that it looks like a problem in communication because the way couples interact with each other is by mostly by talking, although there's a lot of non-verbal talking through one's feet. But where whatever is going on between them manifests is going to be in their communication. So, couples typically think, if only we could communicate better, our problems would be solved. Um, so that's the number one thing that people come in with. Then there are particular kind of we could say content areas that couples come complaining about depending on where they are in their life cycle. Very common one is division of labor. It's not fair. Who's doing what more? Questions around intimacy whether it's sex or spending time together or connecting. Then there are ways in which their early childhood manifests in their couple's life. But I'd say those are like the key areas.

So it sounded like when you were saying people come in and they think communication's the issue. Yeah. The look on your face was that's not really the issue. So what is the issue? Right. Well, there are many issues, but the thing is when you when you guide people into how to communicate better and how to really speak and listen to each other and get to the heart of the issue, usually they're real issues that are underlying the issues of communication. And often people make communication difficult because it's hard for them to touch the real issues. So they defensively create problems in communication. So when you're asking what are the real issues, at least from my perspective, I think if I had to like summarize it in the in the most succinct way, I would say the real issue that couples face is that they're building a relationship or living with another person who's different from them. And that is really hard. It's very exciting. It's a source of growth. It's it's a source of desire. It's a source of lots of good things. But it's also incredibly difficult and annoying. Whether it's like the small habits of another person or the deepest core of who they are and their values and their politics, there are many ways in which the otherness of your partner infringes on you and puts you in all sorts of like difficult positions.

Yeah. I mean, I'm thinking back to it. I remember when my wife and I when we were just dating and when we lived together for a brief amount of time, that was when I was like, "Oh, I think we could be good together." Because it was it felt easy to go to work, be in the same space. We kind of had a good distribution of household responsibilities. Like, we we felt like we had a flow. It's really interesting to me because when I look earlier in my dating life and when I speak to so many people myself, sometimes you can be such good partners when you're boyfriend and girlfriend or whatever your makeup may be, but then when you move in together, you're not as good roommates. Yeah. And it feels like that transition is where so much of this is discovered.

Yes. That is probably the first round in which things are discovered like the living together. And you can think of it as compatibility that some people just have similar habits or you know they they like the dishwasher loaded a particular way similarly or and and it makes it easy. But if you if you go kind of deeper under, I think part of it is how do you respond to otherness? How do you respond to someone who's different from you in the smallest way and in the biggest way? And for some of us, differentness poses a lot of issues, a lot of problems. It feels intrusive. It makes you question your own beliefs. It's you you you immediately get into questioning who's right, who's wrong, who's top, who's bottom, otherness can trigger a lot of stuff. Whatever the otherness is. And for some people, it's more easygoing. It's easier to just accept the fact that people have different habits. Part of it is compatibility and part of it is like can you really are you ready to tolerate another person and to adjust to another person and and change in response to letting someone else into your life.

I'm really appreciating the language with which you're explaining this because I genuinely don't believe I've heard it that simply before and that well. And I say that because I think we often make it about do we have compatibility? Do we have chemistry? Do we have connection? And really, you're so right that it's feeling otherred or otherness that really causes all of our conflict. And and I have I have a Oh, I want to apologize. We never introduce Nico. I think Nico is making me aware now. Nico is saying like, "Wait, you left me out." So, this beautiful being that we have roaming around us at all times is Nico, who we're very grateful is here and is even more beautiful in person.

When Radhi and I first started living together, we found that we had very a very small example, we had very different routines in how we liked to host and entertain. So if we had friends over, we both want to have dinner with them, but then after having dinner, I want to hang out on the couch. I want to talk to them. I want to relax. I want to spend time with them. Radi wants to get into the kitchen and clean while everyone's there and then go to hanging. Yeah. and I want to hang out with everyone and then I want to go and clean when everyone's left. Totally get it. And mine comes from how I was raised. So that's what we did in my house and hers comes from how she was raised. Right now I don't think there's a better or worse. I think it's a preference. But what I found was that when I would hang out straight after eating and I wouldn't clean up, there were times when Radhi would see that as me not valuing her responsibility. Exactly. shaking responsibility or you expect me to do everything and that's not how I felt but that's how it came across.

That's why what you're saying resonates with me so strongly because the otherness of activity also leads to the otherness of emotion and all of a sudden now you're filling in the gaps of that space of being otherred. So to her it became I'm disrespected, I'm not valued, uh you're sherking responsibility, you're lazy, whatever it may have been. Exactly. And for me, it became, well, I'm just trying to hang out. What's wrong with you? Why can't you just have fun? You know, why do you have to be so fixated on cleaning up? Like, why are you so whatever it may be, right?

So, now perfect. Can I borrow this from from my book? Yeah. Yeah, please. cuz this is like a perfect example and just the way you said it also that that's exactly it that there's a space of difference and you don't understand why you're different and you immediately start building theories that are basically meant to answer the question I how am I right and what's wrong with you right because difference we can't just it's very hard for us to just let difference sit there and just say we're just different and how are we going to move with this difference? What's the best way to move with it? We immediately start like involving I don't know what it is. It's like our ego or or something about who we are that's at question with difference. And that's where a lot of the trouble starts coming in. Like you build theories like she's building a theory that you're like sherking responsibility or oh here is another guy just wanting the woman in the kitchen. Yeah. And you're like oh here is a wife that doesn't want to have fun. She's just going to be like nagging me to do this that and the other. I mean we know the theories. It's very easy to kind of inject theories in there. But part of what happens in in coup's work and you you don't know you don't have to do it through therapy but part of what happens is you start tracking the automatic way that you assign all these scripts to your partner to avoid just dealing with the discomfort of otherness.

I think of it sometimes like a thorn, like a thorn that gets stuck in you that disrupts your way of thinking about things. Like suddenly there's another way of doing things and you're like, "Wait a minute. Do I have to think about how I'm doing things at all? Do I have to question what I'm doing? And how am I going to respond to that provocation?" M and what's the difference between like I feel like for a lot of people they maybe in the beginning they'll just fold and do what their partner wants because it's easier right and then maybe many years later they'll be like I changed for you I did that for you I did all these things for you but you didn't value me and you know you haven't changed or whatever it may be totally there's a lot of different versions of that that's one version what's the right balance between looking for the right solution and looking for.

I I'm not a fan of the word compromise. What are your thoughts on the word compromise? Uh could you say a little bit more just Oh, that's interesting. I I don't love So, for example, for me, I don't believe I think compromise is us both saying, well, okay, well, I'll do a little bit of this for you if you do a little bit of this for me. Whereas to me it's like well can we work together to figure out what makes the most sense and what is actually the most practical best effective solution where everyone's happier and I don't think that means some like for example with this situation we have now believed that it is nicer to host as long as Radhi has the peace of mind that everything will be clean that evening. Yeah. We've come to a conclusion which I don't think is a compromise for either of us. It's a feeling that we both found a solution together. And compromise to me makes me feel like I gave up something or I lost out on something or she did something for me that's important. If she said to me, Jay, it is so important to me that we clean up right away. I would value that and I would do it. I don't want to do it because I feel forced to or I have to. That's my issue with it.

I'm thinking about how I work it out with couples when first of all couples need to abandon the idea that one of them is completely right and one of them is wrong. Right? You you you want to approach the difference with the idea that you're equal partners, that you each have a valid point of view even if it's different. And that's actually not an easy thing to get to. It's so hard. So hard. Right. I see that being the biggest challenge for couples. And it would be interesting to think about like why is it so hard for us? But it's very hard. But once you approach a difference in terms of it simply being two equal partners struggling with difference then you want to create a space and I agree with you that to simply compromise is sometimes just a quick fix and it kind of it's like a band-aid that underneath it can breed resentments and and you can eventually somehow go back to the idea that it's not fair. or I compromise more than you or but to do what you're suggesting doing which is to really put both minds to it and arrive at a conclusion together is actually really hard. You have to overcome both a lot of your own convictions, selfish needs and really work for the good of the relationship of the total the total good.

That's why I often say that couples form between them like a political system. It's like the first political system of how do you resolve difference? Are you going to be like autocratic or democratic in terms of how you resolve a difference? Interesting. I like that. Sometimes I go back to um reminding people of how when you have two kids playing and wanting to play with the same toy, like how do you coach kids on what to do in that case? Do you take turns? Do you give both kids the same toy? Do you just remove the kids from the situation and say, "Oh, they can't play well together." Do you leave one kid crying, having to compromise in a way that was just really depriving for them and they were not ready for? All this to say that this solution that you're suggesting, which is to really put your minds together and figure out a solution that is good for everyone, is hard. I do think it's the best one, but I think it requires a certain kind of honesty and willing to give up a certain kind of investment, selfish investment in the thing that that you believe in. You have to like relax your convictions.

It It makes so much sense to me because I feel like most issues are this. Yeah. And most people are not solving this. Yeah. and we're lost trying to solve some other puzzle. And I couldn't agree with you more that whether I'm talking to a family member, a friend, a coaching client, or I'm watching something on TV or hearing from someone about something, this is the problem. Yep. And this is the root of it that we don't want to accept that someone else may be right and we may be wrong. That someone else may have a better idea than ours and ours may be worse. and that the way their parents did things might actually supersede the way our parents did things. And we don't like that because it makes us feel almost disloyal to our own upbringing. There's like a feeling of I'm betraying what my parents did. I'm betraying tradition. Y there's a ego conflict there of but this is my identity. This is who I am. And by telling me there's another way, a better way, you're almost making me feel like my identity is becoming more and more insignificant day by day. And I'm losing something that grounds me. What's going to happen to me if I don't have this identity? Exactly. And the loyalty can be to to parents. It can be to to a particular group that you're associated with. It could be to your religion. And it can be to a an ideology or a belief system that that you feel like your yourself kind of depends on.

No one wants to be in a relationship where their partner is just waiting for them to change for the relationship to really start. We're self-centered. We we've got like, you know, the the our perceptive field and we don't really see the other. and working through that and and getting to a more humble place where you understand that you've been more selfish and then in certain ways you are exploiting your partner. It's an important piece of the work. There's a certain level of acceptance that has to happen. Of course, we want to change and get better and grow with each other, but you can't really be in a conditional relationship. That's not going to work.

How do you open up to the idea that someone else's value may be helpful without devaluing yourself? Almost. How do you open up to the idea that someone else and you can build something together without feeling like you're losing and merging yourself? Because I think what's interesting here is the person often with the better idea is also not doing it to find a common solution. they also just want you to go their way and so we're also not being led perfectly if that makes sense right you know ideally you want to create conditions where it stops being about who's right who's wrong but again it's for the the the good of everyone like the you ideally you want kind of the questions of the ego to kind of drop to the background and to really get into the state of mind where both participants feel acknowledged, safe, and they don't have to worry about their their identity or their ego or their or their personal investment. And they have a feeling that they're going to gain something for the good of the couple or the family or the unit that there's something that exceeds them that will benefit from this. And and to get there, there are many ways to get there. But um I know what I try to do in my practice is to create first of all a sense of you know what people call now in in popular language like a a safe space. And what does that mean? It means a space in which what matters to you in a deep way is heard, is respected. You may not necessarily get exactly your way, but you feel on a basic human level that your dignity, your your the things you care about that really matter to you are seen and respected and that whoever's negotiating with you will take that into account, not just kind of, you know, bulldoze over you. And when people feel cared for in this way by the therapist or eventually by their partner, they're willing to do a lot. I think people were all mostly we have like an incredibly generous creative spirit within us that if we stop feeling threatened, we we want to operate from there for the better of everyone. And I think when you get to a solution where one person feels, "Oh, I got my way." And the other one didn't, it never ultimately feels good. It might feel good in the moment, like you got a momentary win, but you're left with this kind of churning, uncomfortable feeling that you took something that you shouldn't have taken from someone.

Yeah. I think I think the challenge that people experience is like let's say it's the holidays and I'm saying to you I'm like I know we're going to your families for Christmas. I just want you to know that I really feel uncomfortable around your parents because I feel like they're always, you know, picking at my career or they're always making me feel a bit insecure about something like this or maybe they're somewhat downplaying some of my achievements or whatever. I just want you to know that sometimes I feel triggered like let's say I say that to my partner. Yeah, very untrue for my life but actually it's a very common thing for others. and your partner doesn't have what I find today is people don't have the capability to validate you right without feeling like they're invalidating themselves. Yeah. So the person responding to that goes, "How can you say that about my parents? They love you. I mean, they love you. Like what are you talking about? Like oh my god, they they've got you an amazing gift. Like it's a surprise. Like you don't even know. Like you know, oh my god, they were just asking about you yesterday." And you're like, "No, I get that. I'm not saying they're not loving, but I just feel like I get really triggered because of this, this, and this." and they're like, "Look, you're just crazy. Like, just, you know, don't worry about it. Like, just just it's not a big deal." And it's not that that person is mean. Your your partner is not being mean, but they don't realize because they're so scared. Or they'll say something to you like, "I can't believe you can say that about my parents. My parents are loving, wonderful people, and now you feel really hurt and pushed away because you're like, well, wait a minute." So I find that often when people share how they actually feel, the person on the receiving end doesn't know how to receive that totally because they're scared that if they accept that then then they have to accept that their parents are the worst people on the planet or whatever else comes with that criticism.

How do we how do we kind of wrap our head around that? Yeah, you're you're capturing something very significant. I think first of all just to understand why is that kind of moment so difficult before even trying to think of the solution. I think one of the thing it brings up for people let's say to to go with the example you're raising it brings up both conflicting loyalties what you were saying earlier loyalty to your family of origin loyalty to your culture loyalty to yourself your sense of goodness versus your loyalty to taking care of your partner and caring about their feelings. That's a real inner conflict that that kind of predicament puts the receiving partner in. They're conflicted between these loyalties. Just to underline something here, to be in a state of inner conflict is difficult. It's difficult for all of us. We like simple solutions. We like right or wrong. We like good or bad. We don't like I love my parents. They're awesome. They've taken such good care of me, but they're also hurting my partner. It's it's very uncomfortable for all of us to be in inner conflict. So to understand that putting your your partner in that position is already asking them to sit in a difficult position for themselves. So what to do in that case? I think what I do when I work with couples when they're in that kind of predicament is I help both of them understand the difficulties they're going through in having the conversation. not the solution but why is the conversation difficult let's say the receiving partner whose parents are criticized I might slow them down and first of all ask them to talk about what kind of position that puts them in like to try to describe the inner conflict it puts them in like their love for their parents and I ask the partner to understand that they're asking their partner to position themselves away from their parents and that's a hard thing to do. And I'm asking the the receiving partner to understand that the person who's let's say criticizing their parents or talking about being triggered is also a complex person who's talking about having multiple kinds of feelings. They can both appreciate the parents, appreciate their connection to the parents and have another kind of feeling. We're talking about kind of expanding the the spectrum of what people can hear and feel hear from each other feel in themselves and calm down about it. It's okay to have conflicting multiple feelings and nothing has to be like an immediate resolution. Okay, that means I'm never coming to Thanksgiving with your parents or I'm going to be a jerk and not talk to your father. It's okay to have all these feelings and sit and eat the turkey.

Yeah. A lot of I feel like a lot of men feel caught in between their mom and their wife if they're in a absolutely heterosexual relationship. Like there's this conflict of oh my gosh, I've got to choose between my mom and my wife or my girlfriend or whatever whatever it may be. Which is true. Which is true. It's true. You have to make a transition. When you get involved with a significant other, you're making a transition. And I mean I I love the fact that you brought up the idea of loyalties which is so powerful for all of us. Loyalties to family, loyalties to ideas. There is an element of making a transition from belonging to one group to belonging to a new family or new group and and that is hard. It's hard for the person and it's hard for the mother and it's hard for everyone.

Let's talk about that because I think culturally and different cultures have different expectations too. So for example in the Indian culture yeah it's generally seen that the woman becomes a part of the man's family. Now that's a very traditional idea. I was very fortunate to grow up in a home that was far more broad-minded than that and we don't I don't subscribe to it at all. What generation are you? I'm like first generation in in England. First generation in England. Yeah. First generation in England. I definitely don't subscribe to that idea. To me, it's dehumanizing of the individual who kind of becomes like, oh, you were you're like an object. Yeah. You're like an object that's now been placed over. Now, do I believe that we're part of each other's families? Of course. But I think for me, it was very clear that we were now building something together. Yeah. And that became the priority. And the buildings that we both came from were homes that we could always visit and be a part of, but we had to be very careful in curating the home. And I I explain this the way I like couples to think about it because I know a lot of people who when I say this to them, they get robbed the wrong way because they're like, "What about culture? What about tradition? What about my family values?" Going back to loyalty. Yeah. And I like people to think about it like designing a home. And we were talking about that earlier. Yeah. So, you grew up in a certain home and your partner grew up in a certain home. And I'm guessing when you move into a home or you rent an apartment or whatever it is that you both decide to do together, you design it to your tastes together. It would be very rare for you to say, "I want this to look exactly like my mom's home." And it would be very rare for that person to say, "I want this to look exactly like my dad's home." Chances are you're both going to come together and you maybe one of the partners takes the lead because the other person doesn't have much interest or talent or skill and you end up creating this space. But the point was you knew you were creating something together, right? And so I like to think about it like that where it's like, okay, well, we're designing something together and that doesn't mean we don't take influence and inspiration from the homes we came from, but we're not trying to mirror those homes perfectly, no matter how amazing they were.

How do we open up our minds to that? Because I think so many people just go, "Well, no, this is how it's done and this is how it's meant to be." People come into relationships probably with your idea that they're going to create something together and that's their kind of conscious mind. But then as the relationship starts to kind of take shape, all sorts of unconscious loyalties, so true, creep in. And then a person might believe that they're creating this new home, but they suddenly feel like, to use it metaphorically, but the foyer has to look a certain way, and they don't even know why, but it's coming from their family of origin. A certain kind of It makes me think also of um queer couples that that were raised by straight parents. They have to really rebrand everything and recreate. they can't rely on the old model, but they don't have another model to rely on yet. So, it creates like all these like confusions like wait, are we trying to build kind of a straight like relationship or are we creating something totally new? And it's hard to create new. I mean, it's it's there's something that's easy when you rely on like an old model that was handed down to you and you don't have to like reinvent things and you don't have to think and wonder what's right, what's wrong. You're just kind of repeating something that was done.

Yeah. It it comes up again around questions of raising children. That's like then it starts all over again like what's the right way to raise children and you know I don't know sleep training or this is just Yeah. And then both your parents have ideas on how you should raise the kids too. And now you're fighting about what your parents think is the right way to raise kids. You're like well my mom raised me and she did a great job. And then you're like, well, my mom raised me and she did a great job and now it's like my mom's better than your mom and and it's you. But that's that is what people are those are the conversations people are having, right? Like that's what you're hearing too.

Yes, I'm hearing that a lot when people have the experience of letting go of the right, wrong, either or when they work through problems in a different way, they it does get internalized and people get the hang of it and the and the good feeling of oh my god, it's not my ego doesn't have to be at stake with every discussion or right wrong is not the only way to think about things. There there are like so vast other ways to think about difference and when you get into the groove of that the world opens up. Yeah. I think we need to give people a vocabulary for that. Yeah. And and it's really hard when we've lived in a very logical rational world. Yeah. Where like you learned math and there was something there was a right answer and there was a wrong answer. Right. Although even in math it's not true. There are many ways to get to a solution. Yeah. But the way we were taught in school, there was always a right and wrong answer. So, we don't really have the ability like, and I keep coming to art as a way of talking about it. It's like art just doesn't have a lot of right or wrong. It's just taste. Yeah. And taste can taste is not good or bad. It's just taste. It's just like you could put a color that doesn't make sense next to another color and it could work and it could not work, but you're not looking at it in a binary way. You have a reason for why it's placed there. Yeah. And and I think we've in in trying to get to right and wrong. We've lost our reasoning power. Yeah. Of like why am I doing this? Why are we doing this? How are we behaving?

How quickly do you know when you meet someone whether they're going to make it or not? A couple. Yeah. You know, I don't make quick judgments. I really refrain from that because I think humans to me, I mean, and I've been working as a psychologist and analyst for many years, but humans to me remain in in principle remain a certain kind of mystery. There's something about humans that is like ever surprising to me. And when a couple walks in, they might look like they have like the most intense kind of hair raising problems. My general approach is I want the mystery of why they're together and what they're trying to have with each other reveal itself and and I want to line up with that part of them. So I try really try not to rush to any kind of judgment. Oh, these guys are never going to make it. I mean, there are certain things that let's say bother me when with couples. I mean, when they're very committed to a certain stance of let's say contempt or put downs or if you want you can call it abuse although abuse is a complicated word nowadays but there's a certain kind of um pleasure in sadism that some couples develop that they get hooked on a certain kind of sat masochistic dynamic that I'm I'm not into and if I can't convince a couple, most couples want to get out of that. They don't enjoy it. Um I'm not talking about kink. I'm talking about like a pernitious kind of mutually destructive way of engaging. And if I can't convince a couple to move out of that mode, if there's something that is too tempting for them, then either I I think you guys should just break up and stop torturing each other or I'm just not the right person for you. I don't want to be in the presence of that. Um, but that mostly people are not into that. They might get stuck in that kind of pattern and they look for me to help them, but most people want to get out of that and and they go for the honey, you know, they go for the good.

If you just help them figure out how if if a couple's stuck in the blame game like look this is all your fault and then the other person's like well I've been trying my best you know but it's really what you've been doing how do you start rewiring that conversation what does it take what are the steps to getting out of the blame game which seems to be such a common place right it's big um there's no there's no one way because people get stuck in that blame game which is pernicious um for different reasons. My job and when people are in that kind of pattern is to convince each of them to kind of release the grip they have like be a little less convinced and sure about their own narrative. just get a little less stubborn about your narrative and start getting curious about other ways to see things and then start getting curious about yourself rather than hyperfocus on your partner and put everything outside like try to pull back from that hyperfocus and start asking yourself questions. Why does this thing bother me so much? What is the thing that is like making me crazy? Like if if we went back to like the example of like the the dinner parties, like why is it so important to clean right after? What's the fear? If the if the dishes sit there for another 2 hours, what what's the issue? Like look back at yourself. Don't focus on your partner. What's he doing not doing? What's getting stirred up in you? And usually you find really interesting things there. Like when people are really willing to like pull away from their partner and look into themselves, they're like, "Oh, this is really interesting. This is kind of reminding me of blah blah blah." And then suddenly it's less about the partner and there's a whole world to discover about yourself and and and the whole intensity of blame goes down and then people get curious about each other, you know, and you're going to be like, "Oh yeah, I noticed that your mom is like so fidious and she's so afraid of germs and what happened to her when she was a kid and like a whole world opens and and the whole blame thing becomes less interesting."

Yeah. I remember doing that for myself and realizing I thought I'd been tolerant of my partner and then realized my wife's actually been so tolerant of me. Like you have that kind of 180° view where you just go, "Oh, wait a minute. I thought I was the one like doing everything." But that's because I never kept score on her scorecard. Yeah. Right. It was very easy for you to always look at things through your lens. Totally. You can always count the amount of overtime hours you did. It's the same at work. You can always count the amount of effort you've put in, but you never see anyone else's effort. You never see and and we also miss the like when our partner lets us off with bad behavior or a bad mood. You don't take note of that. No. But then when your partner when you, you know, react to your partner's bad mood or whatever, you're like, "Oh my god, look, I held back and I was doing that for me." Yeah. Why aren't you doing that for me?

But when you you're describing this change in you, the thing that is interesting to me and I I often try to bring couples attention to that is I would assume that when you had that change, it actually felt really good. Oh, for sure. Right. People are so afraid that they're going to lose something, but they gain something when they go through that change. That's what I was talking about earlier. like the world opens and and good feelings come in like, "Oh, we're both in it together. We're not like, oh, she's bad, I'm good, and like she's to blame." And it's suddenly like, "Oh, we're both human together. We're both flawed. We're both awesome." Yeah.

What happens when objectively someone is being genuinely taking taken advantage of? So it's like they're doing all the chores. They're contributing 50% financially. They're their feelings are not heard or seen. Yeah. They're never validated. The person does actually have an expectation that you're meant to do all this. This is who you are. This is your role in life. Yeah. How does someone think through that when they still feel the person's a good person? And first of all, I have to say it's more rare than you'd think. Oh, interesting. Yeah. It sometimes looks like that, like one person could be like, you know, like you're saying, doing all the work and the other person is like mooching off them and but when you look at the relationship, often what you find is that they're contributing in some other very subtle way. It could be not something you can really put your finger on, but they're like the let's say they're loyal to the couplehood. They're holding like the the the whatever that thing of the boat is called, the keel of the boat. They're they're like the most romantic and holding on to the deepest idea of what the couple is despite all the fighting or they might be contributing in ways that are hard to account for. and and it's important to to unearth that and give each person a sense of what their contribution really is.

Some of the work that I have to do with couples is make people aware and accountable for where they are being selfish because we all have an inclination to, as you said earlier, to only see our own work and only see our own point of view. And we're selfish and we're not even selfish. We're self-centered. We we've got like you know the the our perceptive field and we don't really see the other and working through that and and getting to a more humble place where you understand that you've been more selfish and then in certain ways you are exploiting your partner. It's an important piece of the work. I have to go about it. It's it's hard for all of us to acknowledge that. So I have to bo go about it gingerly and and sensitively with people and and give a lot of reinforcement for being willing to take on that less pretty part of ourselves. But ultimately, like you were saying earlier, it's it's it's a gratifying process. That that's why it it sounds almost like polyanish or corny especially nowadays, but I do believe in the goodness of people. We ultimately want what's good for our partner. Yeah. It's just that we want what's good for our partner, but maybe we don't know what's good for them. Yeah. Right. And we often think we know what's good for our partner or right for our partner. And that's sometimes our greatest mistake. Yeah. Because we're not really listening to them or right taking in from them what they're saying and and feeling. We're self-centered. We're narcissistic in many ways. There there's a way in which our world view is limited by being, you know, the way especially the way we're raised.

I actually wonder what you'd think about this because I think it's it's very different in Western versus other cultures. But but we're raised with such a focus on the self. I mean, there's a certain kind of narcissism built into our culture that makes it harder for us to be in in deep relationships. Mhm. Do do you have thoughts on this? Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I I feel that to me relationships have to be about growth and service. And I think we think that they're about pleasure and ease. Yeah. And self. And self. And that's what I mean by pleasure. Pleasure is always the self is always linked to pleasure generally and ease and comfort. And it's funny because growth and service are the exact opposite. So growth is the opposite of ease and comfort and service is the opposite of self-centeredness. Yeah, it mean I have just had fun. So, it's like we have lots of fun. Things are great. But I've become a better human because of this relationship. Absolutely. On so many levels. I've become more self-aware. I've become less egotistical. I've become more conscious of my flaws. And it's happened all in a less judgmental way. And I think that's the part that I think people get wrong is that we say this is the person that we want to love forever, but they end up becoming the person we judge forever. Yeah. And they become the person that we criticize forever. And they become the person that we complain about forever. And the person you said you wanted to love forever becomes the person who actually gets the least loving part of you. Yes. And so when I say growth and service, I don't mean subservience. when I say service and I don't mean judgment when I say growth because I think a lot of people think oh well if I'm going to point out all my partner's flaws so that they can grow and I look I'm helping them and I'm like well no that you know Radi's never done that to me and I think that's one of the reasons why we have a healthy relationship because we both don't do that we both feel like we're guiding and coaching each other on things we both opt in and say we want to work on

What would you say if you had to characterize each of your basic stances towards each other. Well, how would you describe it? Oh, that's interesting. I I don't know if I've even have the vocabulary for that. It's a great question. Um, I would say I am completely in awe of my wife. I love her. I find her to be the most adorable, wonderful human being. I can like look at a, you know, a video or a picture of her and I just, it's we've been together for 11 years and I'll just feel this like overarching feeling of love towards her. That's my stance. I would have to ask her for this question. I guess perceive it. I think I think if she was answering this in a question to you or when I wasn't in the room, Yeah. I think she'd say that she has a deep sense of respect. And I don't want to use the word adoration out of context, but like there's a if if she's sharing how she feels with me in private or in a in a special moment or through a friend who said something to me, it would it would be that I think she just she trusts me deeply. She has a very positive feeling towards me as a human, let alone just as a partner. Yeah. That's amazing. And I don't Yeah. And you know sometimes I have to get that out of there but you know it's but that but that's what you're describing sort of what you're it's like the space that you're creating for each other right to live in that that kind of basic stance like when you were asking earlier like what what are couples that will not make it. I mean that's that's what you want. You want the couple to create that kind of space between them to live in that you're creating the world in which you're living.

How do you encourage them to do that when they're saying to you, you know, when he Yeah. When I look at my partner, he's like, I know he's a good guy at heart. I I know I know he's I know he means well, but he just you know all he does is watch football all weekend and like he always forgets my birthday and you know it's just like it's always about like spending time with his family and like you know I don't even think he even he never wants to talk about his feelings like you if that's what you're hearing it's very difficult and I do hear I do hear that exactly how do you encourage them to heal that well hopefully you know to have that kind of stance that you described so beautifully like that you each kind of provide for each other. First of all, it you have to have that capacity inside you, right? Meaning it speaks to some way that you come into the relationship with a capacity to love, right? Like a capacity to experience those kind of feelings towards another person. And then which is great and I believe most of us have that. I mean most of us have enough good inside us that we have that it's

Just now, how do you create the conditions where that is the thing that can come out? Couples come into treatment basically. I often joke about the fact that couples come in basically saying, "Doctor, can you change my partner?" That's like, they won't say it, but that's really why couples come into my office. "Can you please change my partner? Everything will be okay if you just change her."

But when you get people less invested in what we were saying earlier, like the blame, blame, blame, and he did this, she did that, and get them back into this feeling of awe about another person, this feeling like, "But actually, look at them. They're just so wonderful in some elemental way, in some way that I know. I know their goodness." Remember that feeling? Like, approach them from that place, you're creating the conditions for that person to thrive, right? When, when your, when your wife looks at you with adoration, that's when your best self will come out. When your wife looks at you like, "Ugh, you're up again." For sure. You're just like, "I don't care anymore. I'm, I'm going to go play video games." Like, who needs that, right? So, you're, you're by the way you're looking at your partner, you're inviting certain parts of themselves out. And I remind people of that. We respond to each other. We respond to the gaze, to the, the music we're sending each other. And it, it invites different parts of us out.

What about when someone feels, "I've given them too many chances. I've, I've given them that lens for too long and they're just not shifting. But they've not done anything terrible where I need to leave them. But they're also not making any progress on this path. And I kept looking at them with a loving lens, with a compassionate lens, but I just keep running out of patience." In that case, I would need to hear from the partner, "What's going on?" I mean, some people, I mean, is the partner depressed? I don't know what, what's going on there. Like, if, if really a lot is on, is being offered and the partner can't pick up on those nutrients, what's going on? Are they, maybe they're going through something? Maybe they're, maybe there's something completely different going on on their end. Some kind of grudge or something that they haven't had a chance to, to really articulate. I mean, that would be interesting for me if that happens. That's not the typical thing that happens between people. Interesting. I mean, typically, if you put good out, good will come back. And I like that idea of when you look at your partner in a certain way, it's what they feel and it's what you feel. And I think it goes back to that human need we all have of wanting someone to believe in us. Yeah. There's such a feeling like, I believe everyone has that at the core. Of course. Like, everyone. But, but there's very few people who believe in you, or at least make you feel that way. Yeah.

It starts, obviously, you know, you know, I'm a psychoanalyst, so I'm eventually going to go back to childhood. But it starts with the way whoever raised you looked at you. Like, what was the, you know, it doesn't have to be the mother, but what was the look in your mother's eye when she saw you? Did the mother's eyes ultimately sparkle and like, "Oh, my baby," or did the mother always say, "Ugh, you're always disappointing." Right? That there's like this basic way in which we're invited into the world or not, that stays with us. And, and that's a powerful kind of early, early platform from which we operate.

What's the first hard question you should ask yourself in a relationship? I would say, um, maybe, "Am I ready to let someone else in with their otherness, with the challenge to my narcissism? Am I ready for that?" This is sort of following everything we've been saying. That's a great question. Can I give? Yeah. Can I give? Yeah. Yeah. And can I hold space for someone else to have to go through their transformation? Yeah. Because chances are, they're not going to come fully formed. Right. And even if they're perfect on my wedding day or right now, chances are they're going to go through stuff. Yeah. And being honest with myself. Because I think sometimes we feel guilty. I know a lot of people who say to me, "Jay, I would have stayed with him." Like they're someone that they're dating. They're not married. They're not in a committed relationship. They're like, "I would have stayed with him, but I don't think I can for what he has to go through and grow through." Wow. You know, he's not ambitious. He needs to figure out his career. He's struggling with his mental health. Like, I don't know if I want to be the person to go through it with him. Right. Although, I would also say in that case, you're not ready. You're not ready. And no one wants to be in a relationship where their partner is just waiting for them to change for the relationship to really start. You want to feel like your relationship is your home, not the future home you're going to have if you change. Yeah. There's a certain level of acceptance that has to happen. And of course, we want to change and get better and grow with each other, but you can't really be in a conditional relationship. "I'm going to love you when you change. I'm going to be generous with you when you change." That's not the real thing. That is what people want. That's, that's not going to work.

I literally feel like we find someone that we find attractive and that we enjoy our time with, and then we want to change everything else about them. True. Like, that's literally what we're looking for. Because you'll meet people who like, they'll find the person who actually has everything set up for the future, but we're not attracted to them and we don't like hanging out with them. And so we're like, "Oh, I can't be with you, obviously." But then we the opposite. We're like, "Oh, yeah, you're my person. I'm attracted to you. We love hanging out and having drinks and we have good banter and we can, you know, we can spar verbally." Yeah. And you must be the perfect person for me, even though I don't like anything about your actual life. What? Like, you're not ambitious, you don't have a good career, you don't make enough, like all the stuff that we think is important, right?

I would probably frame it differently. Please. I would say the person that you really kind of get hooked on to and feel like you are the person I want to be with, probably has in them components of things that are really important for you to revisit and work on that are not easy. And, but you don't know that. You don't know that. You just, in your gut, you're terribly attracted to that person. And, and no matter all the other good partners that seem to have all the good qualities are not sticking. And then that one partner, that one person you keep going back to because there's something there. Then the preoccupation with wanting to change that partner is typically some way that you're working through something deep within yourself. Because you know, ultimately, I mean, even when people talk about ambition or, or it's like, it's not about that. Like, why do you need your partner to be so ambitious? You go be ambitious if you want ambition. It's, it's usually you're working through something.

There was a couple on the show that, that were a great example of that, where the woman started off with like, really intense complaints about her husband, that he's not ambitious. And ultimately, we learned that a lot of it had to do with like her mom and father, like a repeat of some kind of old story that never got resolved between her parents. And she was totally working it out through her husband. And once she got focused on the parents and on her early history, she was suddenly back to like, the best friendship in the world with her husband. They, they were just like, so adorable together, you know? It's, it's often something else that creates this kind of, "You got to change for me." Yeah. Yeah. Because it reminds us of something from, it reminds us of something that we haven't resolved, or that your parents haven't resolved, or it could be like, I don't know if we want to get into that, but it could be like something like politically that wasn't resolved. I'll just say in general, that that couldn't resolve a certain issue of passports between them that had to do with one of them being Palestinian and like not having like statehood and would fight with their partner about passports, but it had nothing to do with the partner. It didn't even have to do with their own families. It had to do with Palestinian identity. All sorts of things make their way into what seems like an issue between the partners that come from really other places. Yeah. Yeah.

So, I'm, I'm, when people start like blaming their partner for stuff, for me, it's like a riddle. Yeah. What is this really about? And those are the kind of questions that if we reflect on it ourselves too, it can help us so much. I mean, are you, do you find that are women more prone to be the fixes? First of all, I think things are changing as far as genders, so it's a little hard to make real statements about like women and men. But if I had to kind of say something general, I'd say women are, they're raised to be more kind of tuned into the ins and outs of a relationship and kind of take care of the relationship in a certain way in terms of like talking more, bringing feelings to the table. And men are more tuned into like the frame around the relationship and, and a certain kind of loyalty over time. They, they add a certain rudder to the relationship. So, it, it's different ways of tending to the relationship. But even that, it changes a lot. And of course, it then looks very different in queer relationships. So, of course. But that's kind of my crude generalization about women and men. Yeah.

How, how have you helped men who struggle to open up about their emotions open up? Because I think sometimes there's a lot of pressure for a man to show up emotionally, right? But he may never have had that training or that vocabulary or that safe space his whole life. Well, he probably has anti-training, right? Men, men are, I mean, again, it's different nowadays, but typically men are raised to disavow their feelings, focus on, um, power, protection. I mean, important functions, not, not to minimize that. There's, there's a lot of value in those, but, but they're, they're raised to turn away from their feelings. And I, what I do in my work with men is I, in a way, teach them to pay attention to small hints about their emotional world, and they're always there. A stomach ache, a tightness in the chest, a habit that is not good for them. And to follow those beginning hints and clues and try to get curious about what else can they tell me about their emotions. And when they start getting in touch with feelings, it's usually, it's very gratifying. It's, it feels good to get in touch with your feelings. It, it feels good. You feel more grounded. Your, your world gets richer and your relationships get better. So, it's, it's really starting from the little clues from, and, and developing curiosity and then kind of developing a menu, like a vocabulary for all these little things that happen in you. Like from having like three words for feelings, like, "I'm angry, I'm bored, I'm happy," you know, you can start expanding to 12 words and then eventually to like 70 words and then it, you know, it gets, it gets interesting. Yeah.

And I feel like people have to be patient. Mhm. That's what I found in relationships the most, that a lot of us are waiting for everything to change at the next therapy session. Yeah. The next 24 hours. Yeah. The next argument. Or we just learned that in therapy, it should be solved now. Right. And I'm like, "You realize they've been practicing that habit for like generations." Generations. Yeah. And generations. Even more than 29 years. And so I just feel like we've lost our ability to be patient because there's so much choice. Yeah. And there's a feeling that, well, someone must be able to do all these things. Yeah.

What do we do when we think that way? I'm a big advocate for, you know, slowness. I mean, psychoanalysis is a slow process. We spend like several times a week and over years like slowly attending to things. I think when people are offered the experience of going through things slowly, they suddenly remember, "Oh, this is actually good for me." I mean, rather than scrolling through like a million quick videos or, or snippets of things or like just the headlines of news, to sink into something is actually gratifying. M. Right. It's, it, it feels good. You just, you just have to be guided. You have to offer people a frame, like the analytic frame. Like, people sit in my office, a couple sits for an hour without looking at their phones, and we're slowly working through things, and then it feels good and things really happen. So, it's just having the experience. Yeah.

Let's, I want to focus on a different life cycle part of relationships. When people are starting to date, are there things that they can look for that show the sign of someone being a strong partner for them or a weak partner? You know, that so much happens early on when we just meet people that is unconscious. So much is unconscious. Like years later, you'll, you'll be able to analyze why you really liked this person or what went wrong. So, it's hard to make people really fully aware of what's moving them. I would say, listen to your gut. Your gut is telling you important things, and it might be telling you important things about yourself, about your own history. It might be telling you to keep repeating the same mistakes, or it might be telling you something really worth listening to about the other person that is good. Don't be afraid. So, listen to your gut. I would also say, listen to what the other person is telling you. People often disclose a lot about themselves right at the beginning, and we often don't listen. I know that from when patients come into my practice and I'm having first sessions with people, often people tell me everything right at the beginning, even, even in the way they, they're like late to a session and the way they explain it, they might be telling me a lot about their whole life history, just, just in the very beginning. So, listen. Don't ignore information that's right in front of you. Like, um, Hillary was actually telling me that a friend of hers, um, dated someone who, I think on their first date, told her, "I have a suitcase of unpaid bills under my bed." And she thought it's funny and ignored that. Of course, only later, later, later to find out. I mean, this person was like a mess. Yeah. It sounded funny on the fact, it sounded funny, but they're telling you real information. So, listen. Listen to what people are telling you. Listen is generally a good, a good piece of advice. Yeah.

If someone tells you that they have a bad relationship with their parents, are there certain things to expect or is that too general? First of all, that's an interesting piece of information. Talking about listening, I would immediately get curious, like, what, what is the person telling me? Is the person telling me something about early trauma? And, um, I'd want to know what happened and how did this person, what does it mean to not have a good relationship with a parent after trauma? So, I'd want to know what happened, um, and is the person you're getting to know, are they, let's say, did something bad happen to them with their family of origin and they have developed a certain kind of wisdom where they know how to separate themselves from, from earlier traumatic experiences or not good experiences and they've kind of formed their own personhood in a way that you can trust? Or is this, I mean, to the other end of things, is someone in a way stuck in something that they kind of have not found a way to work their way out of and they're going to be forever stuck in a certain old pattern that they really need to be doing the work to move out of? So, you know, I mean, I'm, I'm giving two extremes. Like, one is, I've had like something bad happen to me or this was not good and I'm, I'm, I've just worked my way out of it and I'm separate from this family of origin. Or on the other extreme is, yeah, I hold a grudge and I'm forever begrudging these parents and really, I'm going to be repeating that in this relationship too, because this is my life story. Grudge.

It's so hard because it seems like long-term relationships, which is what we all want, require three types of healing. Like, that person needs to heal, you need to heal, and then you need to heal together, right? And you need to make space for them to heal, they need to make space for you to heal, you need to make space for yourself to heal, and they, there's so much healing required. Yeah. And it requires so much patience, compassion, empathy, like almost endless to some degree. Again, I'm not talking about abusive or, you know, uh, violent relationships. We're talking about a relationship that's not abusive or violent. There's, there's like endless amounts because, you know, it's like things were great and then you had a child and then the childhood challenges and then you went through that together. And I've had so many friends this year go through a miscarriage and like, M, that created new things in their relationship that they didn't have before because they both dealt with grief differently. Yeah. Samsara life is difficult. I mean, life's amazing, but life is full of, I mean, you know, Americans think that life is about pleasure and happiness. I mean, life is a challenge. I mean, there, I mean, death is embedded in life. I mean, we're, life is full of difficulties. There's always loss. There's always a challenge. There, it's, it's the stuff of life. And I welcome that. That's what life is about.

How do you know your relationship is strong enough? How do you prepare? Not that you can ever prepare for anything like that. But how do you know you're in a strong, healthy relationship? Because I think up until now, the only marker we've had, which I don't agree with, is we never argue. So a lot of people will be like, "Oh, I have a great relationship. We never argue," right? Which is that sounds scary. I agree. But I feel like that's been our only metric. Yeah. Of how we perceive. If we say someone has a great marriage, like they never argue. Have you seen them? Like it's great, right? Like it's not, we don't have more than that. We don't have a bigger grading exercise to. We, we do length. So we say, "Oh, they've been together for 30 years. They must have a great marriage." So we use length as a marker of success. We use not arguing or like they rarely have, you know, disagreements or whatever it may be as a marker of success. And we have, "Oh, they have a beautiful family." Like if they have kids and it's, it feels like we have very basic markers to assume that someone has a healthy relationship. How do we make sure we're in a strong, healthy relationship? What does that look like?

First of all, I would say that what we said earlier, that kind of stance, when you spend time with a couple, when you spend time with a couple, you, they have, they build a certain, there's a way that there's an atmosphere around them that you can, it's palpable. And if the atmosphere around them is of a certain kind of mutual respect, adoration, a certain kind of acceptance, that is, that is a good relationship. That is a good world to live in. They've created a world in which they, there, there is space for them to thrive. So, it's, it's sort of the music of a relationship. Is it a music of like, mutual respect, adoration, or is it a, a music of "gotcha, this is where you failed, this is where you messed up"? So, that's one dimension. I would say if a couple is, uh, changing together, meaning, is there room for each of them to change at their own speed and together as a couple, do they go through changes and evolutions? That's a really good quality of the relationship that it's, it's, you know, that it doesn't break under pressure, but it changes under pressure. That's, that's a very strong quality. I, and couples that don't argue scare me. I don't know what, how they, what, what happens there. What do they just not talk? Or do they not reveal ways in which they're different? Or is that scary? Um, tell me more on that. I like that. Like, what, how do you not never argue? Like, what are you just the same person? Have you, have you become like enshed with each other and everything about you that is different, you just repress or dissociate? Are you so afraid of conflict? Are you, where are you each? Have you vanished? It just seems unreal. I think the ability to face differences and, and back to what we were talking about earlier, find how, how have you faced your differences? How do you work through your differences is what's really interesting about a relationship, and that's where its life is.

But can I ask you, what would you say about the markers of like a good relationship? I really appreciate your answer. I think it's, um, it's, it's, it's unique. I've, I've not heard those things before and I appreciate that a lot. I think one where both people don't expect the other person to value what they value, but they allow the other person to have their values and they have their own. Mhm. And both people respect each other's values, but they don't want the other person to believe as strongly about theirs. Yeah. Because I just think that that's pretty difficult if you're honest. Yeah. It's easy if you're living at a surface level and a superficial level to be like, "Oh, we both value family." And it's like, "Well, you don't really, like maybe it's second on your list, but first on your list is your career. Let's just be honest." There's nothing wrong with that, but let's be honest about it. And hey, for it's not really family. It's specifically your kids. It's not the whole family. So, let's really be, let's get really honest about that. And then we may realize we have different values. That doesn't break our relationship because I respect and we know where we stand. So, I think that's a sign of a healthy relationship when we could be really, that's what I think honesty is. I don't think honesty is, "I did this. What did you do?" That's a part of honesty. But the real honesty is like, it's like the depth of your, what you believe in. Yeah. What I really, can I really tell you what I believe in and you're okay with it? Yeah. And of course, when that changes, it can be hard. Yeah. And I think that's a sign of a good relationship is how we deal with new information and change. And that doesn't mean you have to stay together if the information is not what you want to hear or isn't right for you. But I think a strong and healthy relationship is where you are with most changes and you're able to flow rather than saying, "Well, you're not the same person. You, you were, I thought you were this, right?" And they're like, "Yeah, we've been together for 10 years." And so I think a healthy relationship is one that allows for different iterations of each other. Yeah. And what that comes with and rather than trying to hold on to the person you had on your wedding day, right? You're open to the idea that they're actually going to be different every day and every decade. Yeah.

I would say I hope the relationship is one where you don't depend on the other person for everything. Yeah. When you have other people in your life, you have friends, you have family, you have parents, you have other people you can turn to, as well as turning to your partner. Yeah. But it isn't an overdependence on them, or it isn't the opposite, which is an overreliance on everyone else and no dependence on them. Right? When it comes to my relationship, I talk to my partner. When it comes to other stuff, I have other people to talk about it with. Right? Like that balance of, if we're talking about issues in the relationship, I don't need to talk to someone else. I need to talk to my partner about it. They're the person I need to go to. But if I have issues with something that came up today and actually I love venting with my mom or my brother or whatever, then then that's who I'm going to turn to. Yeah. So, that's what comes to mind at least. And can I go back and ask you, I'm just curious what you think about like, what for you is like a, a sign of a bad relationship?

I want to ask you too. I have a really interesting perspective on love and relationships, and it comes from my mom. Like, I believe my mom made me believe that I was lovable, and that I feel that in my core. And so giving love for me feels very easy because I feel like I was showered in it since I was a kid. And when I say love, I mean love. I don't mean things. I don't mean stuff. I don't mean, I, I mean just, I think my mom loves me. And I've always felt that my mom's love was a shield to early trauma that I did experience, but didn't penetrate the shield. And so I feel very lucky. So I feel like I could love the whole world and never run out. Um, and it's, uh, and it comes from my mom. My mom gets the credit for that. Wow. And what you were saying when you were like, "Does the mom have that look in her eyes?" Yeah. I was like, "My mom has that." I could totally resonate. I was like, "Yeah, that's my mom." So that's why you can. Yeah. So I have an unlimited. I feel an unlimited. And of course, I feel very connected to God. I feel connected to source. I, so I feel a very unlimited sense of love. Yeah. It shows up in different ways. Sometimes setting love is setting boundaries and not overgiving or compassion fatigue, and, you know, all those things have to be taken into account. But I think when you ask me what's a sign of a, a unhealthy relationship or or a bad relationship, I think it's when I feel that we're both only looking at the other person's mistakes. We're not looking at our own. Mhm. And we're looking for all accountability to be taken by the other person. Yeah. And not ours. And we're not willing to at certain times be potentially the savior of the relationship when we're thinking, "Well, they should be doing it too." And I think a healthy relationship is recognizing, "Some days you're going to carry me, and sometimes I'm going to carry you." Yeah. And yes, it may have looked like I carried you for the last two years, but you may carry me for the next two. Yeah. And I don't want to live in a world where we're counting every day whether everything is 50/50. Yeah. Because I don't think it works that way.

Like my wife was, there were, you know, when we first got married and we moved to New York, and she was away from her family, and she never once complained to me. She missed her family a lot, and she told me she missed them. And where is her family? In London. Yeah. And she missed her family a lot. But she didn't complain to me. She didn't nag me. She didn't tell me like, "It was all my fault that she was away from her family." And so I know she tolerated a lot. And at the same time, all I wanted was for her to be with her family because I knew how much that meant to her. And I would say that in those early years, she was so patient and so tolerant with the fact that we'd moved here for my work and my mission and my purpose, and I was living my dream. But a part of my dream is also seeing her happy. So my dream wasn't complete either, right? But I think the point is, she carried me those years because she didn't feel like a weight. She could have, but she chose not to, even though she was honest about how she felt, but it wasn't like it was my fault. It didn't feel projected onto me. Yeah. And then she's been through such an evolution in the last couple of years where her role in our life has changed, her career's taken off, her purpose has blossomed, so much has happened. And I feel I've been there for her, or she's been finding herself and discovering herself, and I've been open to that. And I'm like, "But if she was like looking at it in the early days and like, 'I moved for you, I did all this for you. What are you doing for me? You're just living your dream.'" Yeah. If she said that to me, I don't know if we would have survived, right? And then now when she needed a partner to give her space to blossom and grow, if she would have left me before for all those reasons or whatever, then she may not have found a person who is willing to. And I wasn't doing it because she did it for me. I was doing it because I love her. Yeah. And I think that's what it is. You're motivated from a place of, it's not like I'm counting. I'm just doing this because I love you. I'm not, I'm not doing this because. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Does that make sense? I don't know. Sorry, I took a windy road to explain. No, no, no. It's, it also ties to a few of the things we've been talking about. It sort of, it even ties to like the question of like, if someone says, "I'm estranged from my family of origin," like, again, is it like a stance of like, "They didn't do enough for me, grudge, grudge, grudge," or is it a stance of, "I'm taking responsibility for myself"? Yeah. And, and I think it all comes down to the, the old wisdom of just, "What can I do? What can I control? What can I, what can I focus on?" It's not about what I can't control and what I don't think about or the blame game. Or the blame game.

I was going to ask you about some of more of those things actually. Like, what are your thoughts on how often do you hear the word "gaslighting" in the office? Is it common? Yeah, there, there are a bunch of words that I hear a lot now in the office that I think come from TikTok. Yeah. Yeah. Gaslighting, um, triggers, trauma, um, love bombing. Love bombing. Yeah. Recently there was a lot of love bombing. I'm like, "What are your reactions to this word?" So, when I say the word "love bombing," yeah. What are your initial? What are your instant thoughts? My instant thoughts are, first of all, I'm old because I, I came in with a different vocabulary. Um, and I typically ask people to, or there's another one, "activated." "I'm activated." That's people are using that a lot. Triggered and activated. Um, I typically ask people to, I like play dumb and I say, "Tell me what you mean. I don't know what you mean." Because the, usually the, the way people use these words is they have a feeling about something, but they don't exactly know what that something is. So they grab a word, I guess, from TikTok that kind of supposedly captures it, and then they're done thinking. They stop investigating themselves, or they stop really, they're just like, "Aha, I found the culprit. Gaslighting. That's what's happening to me. I don't have to think about it anymore. Someone is bad." You know, it's usually, I love that. I agree with you. Yeah. It's usually a lot more complicated than, "I found the word and someone is bad." Yeah. It's almost a relief we feel when we find the word. Yeah. But actually, he's a narcissist. He's a narcissist. He's gaslighting me. So, I feel like the world has, everyone feels like they've dated a narcissist. Mhm. How accurate are they? 100% accurate because we all have parts of ourselves that are narcissistically oriented, meaning they are to protect our sense of self. Some people move more to the extreme and they're really like deeply wounded and and have to spend a lot of energy protecting themselves and working around their ego. But most of us, in certain situations, were provoked to behave in more narcissistic ways. And when we're offered other conditions, we can be more open and interested in the world. Mhm. So, it's usually the way it's used in pop language, it's usually just like a word that covers up a whole other world of things. I think when people talk about, "I've dated a narcissist," they're like, "That person didn't give me enough attention." And what's that about that? There, there could be so much there, like, what went on between the two of you? Why? What happened? Where were you in that? It's, it doesn't tell you much. Yeah. I'm so happy to hear that because I do think that the word is a relief. It's not that it's wrong. It's just that don't stop unpacking it there. Yeah. So those words are really helpful for you to categorize, summarize your experience, but don't feel that that's the end of the investigation. Like, there's so much more. Exactly. And you're actually doing yourself a disservice. Yeah. And the moment you're thinking about, "I found a word that finds all the problem outside of me," you're deluding yourself.

When you find couples come in with financial issues. Mhm. Is it really about money? Money is a big issue for people. Money is a big issue for people. You know, the question of money, one of the questions that people that couples deal with when they're fighting or debating about money is the deep question of "mine versus ours." What's mine and what are we sharing? And the most concrete version of it is money. But it's everything. It's time. It's attention. It's airtime. It's sex. It's so much is like mine versus ours. But money is like, especially in our culture, money is like the most concrete way to talk about it and to fight about it. Like, if you're making more money than your spouse or than your partner, who pays for dinner? Like, what, what's the vibe between the two of you? Is it shared money or is it, "No, we're still going Dutch," right? Fights about money are, are, are about the concreteness of money, but they're also about where do I begin and end, and what's us together. And then there's a whole other thing with money, which is money is also something to do with our relationship with reality, right? You, you, I mean, back to the idea of someone hiding a suitcase with bills, unpaid bills under the bed. Like, how realistic is your relationship with reality, with what you have, with what you're making? Like, when people talk about money, they're talking about reality in certain ways.

What I, I usually ask people, "How do you think money should play out between the two of you?" If you're making more money than your partner, what is your ideology on this? What do you really think should happen? Does that give you more power? Does that mean you should be making more of the decisions? Does that mean your partner should be paying for less? How do you think about it? Each of you, just, what's your basic ideology? Which is hard for people to acknowledge, right? They, they want to feel like, "No, money doesn't matter," but it matters to everyone in some way or another. They have an ideology. So, are they willing to put it on the table to be honest with how they think about it? And then once you compare these ideologies, then we can have a discussion. It's back to the idea of like, the, the couple creating the, their political backdrop, like, "What is the politics of this relationship?" Are you like socialist or are you capitalist? Are you, what's your economic system? Disagree. What if we vote differently? You probably will disagree on some level. You will somewhere you will disagree, and then it's going to get interesting. It's going to be like a congress, like, right, debating what's the right way to do it. But it's better to have that debate on the table rather than acted out in those, like, what was that film? There was that. Oh my god. It's a film in which, um, the, there's a shipwreck. There's this couple that are sitting at the dinner table and they're looking at each other like, "Who's going to pull out the credit card?" Oh, I don't know. Brilliant scene. Everything about their relationship was in that scene. I don't know. With her kind of pretending she lost her card. Oh, okay. And him reluctantly pulling out his credit card. And then there was, it was just like perfect. I was thinking of a movie called Fair Play. I didn't see that. Did you see that? I heard about it. I didn't see it. I would think you'd, I don't know if you'd enjoy it. I don't know your taste in movies, but I think it's really interesting. It's a story about where it's a movie made about a couple who are competing for the same job because they work at the same company. Oh. But it's really dark. And it really goes into that the psychology of competition, gender roles, the pay gap, everything. And it shows how it tow, it just, it just shows you what's going on inside of our heads that doesn't often come out. And, and, and just how we all feel. And it's so interesting how society and all of this has such a play on how we feel about our role and who we are. Today, we have so many more people to look that and view and see how their lives are going.

I had, I had a friend who his girlfriend made more money than him. Mhm. And he did really well for himself, but she made more money than him. So she, but she expected him to pay for everything. And she wanted him not only to pay for dinners and rent, and she wanted him to buy her a car. She, because she believed that that's because he's a man. Because he's the man. That's how she should be treated. And that was, you know, that was for her. Imagine them having a conversation. They ended up breaking up. But what would their conversation sound like? Literally this. "I deserve this. I'm a queen. I'm a princess. I'm like, this is how I should be treated." Like this. Do you think she would, she said something like this? She said stuff like this. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. That's amazing. Yeah. That's amazing. And you see a lot of this language on TikTok and things like that about what a high value man is, what a high value woman is. And a lot of the language and vocabulary out there today, what is it, what is meant by a high value man? I mean, there's lots of different definitions, but generally it's someone who does have a good career, makes a lot of money, does well for themselves, and, you know, that the obvious definition of it. Well, it's not obvious. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, but the, to me, it's not obvious. Yeah. But it's just interesting to hear how these societal ideas kind of, because then we're like, "Oh, but you're not with a high value man, you know," and it's really interesting because in my world, a high value man would be someone who has good values, like, right, being like ethics. Ethics. Yeah. Exactly. Like character, moral character, strength and courage and bravery and, you know, honesty and, you know, that's what I would consider a high value person, forget a high value man. Yeah. Um, and it's interesting how all this language at play kind of cascades ideas quickly, like you said, because it's easier rather than saying, "I'm with a good man," it's easier if I'm with a high value man. But, you know, what does that mean, right? Um, yeah.

I was going to ask you, do more people want more intimacy or more sex? I think it depends, first of all, it's, it's a complicated thing to draw the line between intimacy and sex. Oh, interesting. Okay. And I think it depends very much on the stage of the relationship. Early on, one of the things, I mean, we all know that one of the things that binds people, one of the strongest glues is sex, like passion and excitement about each other and like, you know, wanting to get into bed together. And then at some point, people start coming to terms with like differences, differences in scripts, differences in appetite. I know that the, like the stereotype is that men are more focused on sex and want more sex and women want less or it's less important to them. I don't think that's actually true. I think again, it's very hard to make generalizations and it changes between like straight and queer couples. So, it's, it's really not necessarily about the biology, but, um, but I think typically there, there are different focuses for men and women. And then later in the relationship, things change because I think later in the relationship, the, the, the line between sex and intimacy gets very blurry. Mhm. And I think generally, everyone wants both intimacy and sex. Everyone wants it and everyone wishes it for themselves and, and wants it in large quantities. Everyone needs it, but they focus on different things. And no one has energy for it, and no one has energy for it. And anyway, a lot of it is about wanting to feel desire of some sort. That's what it is. That's really what it is. And not necessarily wanting, you know, "Oh, I need to have it three times a week," or "I need this," or "I need that." It's, it's, it's a lot about the experience of desire and being desired. That is really kind of the, the thing we all want. The, the to be living in desire rather than living in a certain kind of deadness. That's ultimately what everyone wants.

That's so powerful because it goes back to what we were talking about earlier of like, we just want someone to believe in us. Yeah. It's like, we just want that feeling of like, "I have value. I have something to give. I'm wanted. I'm desired. I'm needed." And people want to feel desire, to feel desired, and also to feel desire for the other. And it's so interesting because it feels like our partners are the people that make us feel the least of everything because it's like, our partner makes us feel the least desired. Our partner makes us feel the least important. We almost have this worry that if I say too many nice things to my partner, they'll get a big head. Or if I'm too nice to them, they'll think that they're better than me. Like, I feel like there's a subconscious, this isn't something someone would say, but there's this subconscious belief of that I shouldn't honor my partner too much because it almost puts me in a weak place. Like a zero-sum kind of. Yeah. Like almost like a feeling of like weakness. Like if I compliment them too much, I'm weaker in this relationship because I'm the one who needs them more. It's a fear of vulnerability, of showing that you depend, showing that you need, showing that you desire. It puts you in a vulnerable place. Correct. Yeah. But it's, I mean, I think, but that's what everything is. But yeah, people thrive in feeling wanted and appreciated. Anything that makes people more stingy, I think is problematic. I think stinginess, withholding is like destructive. Give more. Give, give, give, give freely. Create a good environment around you.

Or thank you for your time and energy today. You've been so gracious and I've genuinely loved talking to you. I felt like I had, I felt like I had so many new thoughts and ideas today just being in your presence and now I'm like, now I know what it feels like to be in the room with you and I'm like, honestly, I mean that, like, I just felt like everything was firing in my mind and I was connecting dots that I haven't before. So thank you. It was such a joy. Me too, Jay. It was wonderful questions and I love all the both the vignettes that you bring in that are immediately like, "Oh my god, the whole world is in this vignette," and the questions you're asking, they're right at the core. Thank you. You're so kind. Or we end every On Purpose interview with the final five. These questions have to be answered in one word to one sentence maximum. Okay. So, these are your final five. Okay. The first question is, what is the best relationship advice you've ever heard or received? Stay in your own lane. The best relationship. Why? How is

That? How does that tell me? It means don't intrude on someone else's journey. Like stay in your own lane. Do the thing you're supposed to do and live and let live. Yeah. That's that's the best way to create a good environment for a relationship.

Second question. What is the worst relationship advice you've ever heard or received? Don't let him get away with it. Why is that bad advice? Cuz that's paranoid. It's like a like be suspicious, be paranoid, don't give the benefit of the doubt, guard your own. It's not a good attitude because because the way you the way you approach the way you look at a person, speaking of what we've that's what you're going to get back. If you're paranoid about someone, they're going to be bad. Yeah. And it steals your energy. And it steals your energy. Right.

Question number three. What's something you used to believe was true about couples, but now you have a different view on it? Maybe. I used to believe that compatibility is the most important thing. And now I think like I said earlier that the capacity to love someone who's different from you is the best source of growth. So well said. I love it. I'm like I'm sold on that idea. That's everything. Great. We've been spending too much time trying to find this like perfect match, perfect fit who's like it's just like there isn't. I think about that with my wife all the time. is so different. We couldn't be more different. Yeah. Like in every way. In so many ways. And I'm I love being alone. She loves being surrounded by family. Like Yeah. I'm I'm super driven, focused, ambitious. She's fun, playful, doesn't take life seriously. That's great, though. Like, it's just But it's so different. I'm I'm always on time. I like order. I like structure. I like system. She believes in fairness. Yeah. Spontaneity and complete, you know. Yeah. And so that initially did create so many rifts and challenges. Like it it was hard because it was like I was ready to go on time. She's not. Yeah. To me that's a big issue. It's a big issue. I want systems in order. I want to plan our weekend out or our vacation. And she's like let's just go and see how it goes. I'm like that's like my worst nightmare is to like turn up somewhere and see how it goes. Like what if it's booked, right? What if the show's booked? What if the scuba diving is booked? Like whatever it is. like what it's all that's like my work.

So, how how do you do it now? How do you do the lateness not lateness? I realized that a lot of the things I wanted to be on time for didn't matter. Yeah. There were things that were and things that didn't. It was me holding myself to a standard that wasn't always necessary. Yeah. It comes back to her with the plates. It was the same thing. It was like sometimes it is important to be on time. Like today, it was important for me to be on time for you. Yeah, sometimes it's not important for me to be on time because it's casual and it's friends and you everyone's kind of turning up and you've got a window to turn up in like but I still want to be there on time because that's just my training because my mom always told me if you're not early you're late and so that comes from that training of just military discipline which is what I live my life by. So I had to learn that for the late thing. And then when it came on the um the vacations we planned we both wanted one day on one day off. So if we go on vacation for seven days three or four of the days are planned and three or four of the days are spontaneous and we actually I actually love that. So it worked out whereas I used to do seven days planned but that would exhaust me. Yeah. And so now I'm like oh this is actually a healthier solution. So yeah taking from that.

Question number four. What is the most difficult relationship you've ever had to help or solve? I I have two things that come to mind. One is a relationship in which um I did feel like one one in the couple was just too my explanation is that he was just too traumatized and he kept um really um viciously abusing his wife in my presence. Um, and I really tried everything. And I believe they really wanted to change, but I I tried everything and I had no impact on him. No impact. Like he tried I I sent him to read books. I I worked with him individually some some of the time. I had to like remove him from the room some of the sessions and and do some work. I I really put my heart and soul into helping them get out of this like extreme form of like blame and abuse and um I did not make a dent. Aside from the fact that I felt bad that I couldn't help them, it was also really a toxic situation to be in. Like the the sessions were just awful for me. Um, so that was probably the worst. And they didn't they stayed together or They actually stayed together. They did. I mean, I think the work eventually did help them um to some degree, but it was awful.

When do you know divorce is the right choice? With that couple, I thought divorce was the right choice and they chose not to. I I I just couldn't imagine like why would a family keep going w with that level of toxicity? Um I I wouldn't wish it on anyone, but they chose to stay together and that's I mean people live the way they want to live. What can I do? But that would have been a situation where I would say that the pain of divorce is worth it because you I don't think it's a good idea to live in that kind of abusive blamy environment day in day out. Another difficult situation was a couple that I cared about deeply and I really really understood them. It wasn't abuse, but they couldn't they couldn't stop repeating a certain pattern that was a direct replay of each of their childhood traumas. It wasn't abuse. It was just like issues around abandonment. And that was very hard. The common denominator is situations where I'm I'm doing my best and I can't affect change. That's hard.

How do you deal with that? I try hard. I'm like relentless. I mean, I I will work with couples. I will sweat. I will put my heart into it. Um, I'll think about it later. I'll read. I'll talk to colleagues. I'll I I I try. I'm like, if I take on a couple, I'm like in it. But ultimately, you know, stay in your own lane. People are going to live their life. I'll I'll bring the horse to the water if they repeatedly won't drink. It's I I've got my life to live. Yeah.

Fifth and final question. If you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be? Ah, okay. Do no harm. Do no harm. Beautiful. Yeah. Mara, thank you so much. Thank you. If you love this episode, you're going to love my conversation with Matthew Hussie on how to get over your ex and find true love in your relationships. People should be compassionate to themselves, but extend that compassion to your future self. Because truly extending your compassion to your future self is doing something that gives him or her a shot at a happy and a peaceful.