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is to square that rhetoric of China's peaceful rise with actions in the South China Sea. Um, land reclamations, building military bases on those artificial islands. How does that go together?
>> Very simple. [clears throat] First of all, Japan in 1945 has to give back all the territory that it has taken from its neighbors. Who did Japan gave all those islands back to? Spratley and Parasel. Who?
>> China.
>> And that is the Chinese version of history.
>> No, that's not the Chinese version. That's historic facts. The United States 7 fleet accompany the Chinese whatever navy that they had at the time. It is you you want the name of the captain of the British of the American ships that sailed in to protect the Chinese Navy. I can find it for you. It's historic fact. If you have a problem with facts, then end of discussion. The fact I I go to America a lot. In America, you talk to anybody who was in the know in Washington DC, they would know that those islands were all given back to China, escorted by the 7th Fleet Navy of the United States.
Forechech. Fore Mr. Chan. A few weeks ago, our Beijing correspondent wrote in a Spiegel cover story about China. This is the end of an era in which the global centers of power were clearly defined and the leading role of the US has never been questioned. Would you share this analysis?
>> Would I share this assessment?
>> Mhm.
>> First of all, you have 1.38 billion people in China. Caught 1.4. before they were very poor 30 some years ago. So for them to seek a better living is a very natural thing for anybody anywhere in the world. And after 40 years of pretty bad history, 50, 60, 70, 80s, they finally figure out and decide to change their ways with the help of Dang Xiaoing. And so the rise of China is in is an [snorts] inevitability. As Henry Kissinger says, for 3,000 years, China was at at the height of human civilization. When Europeans, not my word, Henry's when Europeans were still living in caves, China was already at the height of civilization. And that's true. Now, the last 200 years, China was really out down and out. So much so that Hong Kong was taken by Britain from 10,000 miles away. And so for China today to rise is an is an inevitability. back to the trend line of history of 3,000 years. Could 200 years of bad history reverse 3,000 years of glorious history? Probably not.
So Ronnie, was that 19th party Congress was that a watershed in the history of China in the sense that you know we have returned to our rightful um sort of stature in the community of nations and we're no longer um going to stick to that policy of um you know reluctance and and hiding our true intentions.
>> The answer is a very simple one. Dang Xiaoping said that meaning that we have to hide ourselves. Don't stick out your head, right? Just cl buckle down and do your own thing. That is at a day and age when China was very poor. Its reliance on international affairs is very limited. So of course you do that. Don't cause trouble. But as I said now two things happen. Number one, China's economy is so integrated with the rest of the world. Energy as I mentioned also there's food security and so there is the need that stems from economics number one. Number two, you have the United States. The United States everywhere the Chinese turn Africa, Latin America, Middle East, everywhere you go, America just slap you on the face. That is just a fact. Just check history of the last 30 years in particular the last 20 years. So the Chinese say hey how do we defend ourselves? We have no choice but to take measures that is commensurate with our economic prowess today.
>> So so the fact that he deep heinping enunciated that doesn't mean that it happened that day. It's such a simple-minded way of looking at things that it happened that day, it changed everything. No, there is 30 years of economic development before that that gradually drive China into a position where is so totally dependent in the rest of the world and America acting in its own way that the Chinese feel very threatened. So eventually you have no choice but to have a statement such as what Xiinping has said.
>> So it's Chinese foreign policy as you said about economic interests. It's also about containing the US. I'm trying to paraphrase you here. But it seems to me that there is also an additional element. What he said at the party congress was that he believes it's high time for China to transform itself into a mighty force that could lead the world on political, economic, military and environmental issues. So could you tell us what exactly he has in mind? What are those projects that he's talking about?
>> You know, you mentioned about China containing the United States. Does China have the ability to contain the United States? Or has it been America that has been containing China? And if somebody want to contain you, what are you going to do? Lie down and say, "Rape me." What do you do? You have to do what is necessary for your own people? Of course. So I think you asked a wrong question.
>> It is not China who is containing the United States. It's the United States who is trying to contain China.
>> Point taken.
>> So China have no choice but to react respond. Then to your other question about what exactly what it means.
>> Well, if you are big guy like China, there are certain responsibilities.
>> Mhm. And in fact a lot of people are accusing China today for not taking enough international responsibility. So China tried to take some in international responsibility. Then you come around and say hey hey hey what's your intention no win situation such as the world get wake up grow up get used to it. That's the real politique like it or not. The only thing you can do is be strong enough to protect yourself economically, militarily and otherwise. Right.
>> Right.
>> So, China is doing any any other country would do except that China is a big country.
These discussions is um the world in disorder or world order under pressure and I think there's enormous amount of uncertainty regarding the current world order. But there are some things um perhaps we can agree on. One is China has arrived um or is in the process of arriving on the great power stage. The second is the western dominated order is changing is in crisis possibly crumbling. Do you see um a relation between the two points? Is perhaps one point um favoring the other one?
>> What do you mean by one point? second one of the western world in this order um making the role of China on the international scene even bigger than it was possible before
>> whether the west is in disorder or not the rise of a big country like China no choice will change the world order you don't need to intentionally change anything your presence will change everything. Today's trade of China is about the same as that of the United States. So the two of them has trade of what 4 trillion 5 trillion a piece import export and together. And so you know when you are that big you will change the world whether you like it or not. The answer rather the question rather is is the rest of the world willing to accept that 1.4 billion people want to better their livelihood. Is that legitimate? So the question should not be addressed to me. The question should be addressed to ladies and gentlemen in the audience.
>> What is your impression? How is the west reacting to this rise of China and to its will to to play apparently a new role on the political scene?
>> I have my worries and the reason is the following. The west have been strong for the last 400 years, 4 500 years since renaissance and China has been re waning for the last two 300 years and it is never easy to accept a new player and today the west is very ideological in particular.
>> talking about getting facts right here comes your favorite question Ronnie let's talk a little bit about the South China Sea um which is for all intents and and purposes one of the flash points not only between China and its its neighbors but also in China um in Chinese American relations. Now you know what what a lot of people find hard not only in the west but also in China's neighborhood is to square that rhetoric of China's peaceful rise with actions in the South China Sea. um land reclamations, building military bases on those artificial islands. How does that go together?
>> Very simple. [clears throat] First of all, Japan in 1945 has to give back all the territory that it has taken from its neighbors. Who did Japan gave all those islands back to? Sprley and Parasel. Who?
>> China.
>> And that is the Chinese version of history.
>> No, that's not the Chinese version. That's historic facts.
>> The United States 7 fleet accompany the Chinese whatever navy that they had at the time. It is you. You want the name of the captain of the British of the American ships that sailed in to protect the Chinese Navy. I can find it for you. It's historic fact. If you have a problem with facts, then end of discussion. The fact I I go to America a lot. In America, you talk to anybody who was in the know in Washington DC, they would know that those islands were all given back to China, escorted by the 7 ft navy of the United States. Why? In the 50s, they negotiated with the North Korean. At that time, they were buddy buddy, good friends. They gave some of the islands to the Vietnamese. The rest of it lie there for 70 years. Why is China not do Why did China not do anything for 60 60 years until now?
>> Why?
>> There's an island north of Taiwan only I don't know how far it is. I forgot very close. It has been disputed. It's called the Delu Island or the Japanese call the Senkoku Island. The Chinese call the Delu Island. In the Cairo declaration at the end of the second world war that island together with the whole of the real Q were given back to China and Ronnie just because China is such a big guy wouldn't it be a responsible behavior for a country a global country such as China is um to build trust rather than to to sort of um pour even more gasoline into the fire in a in a region which is even without these tensions already quite tense.
>> Pardon my language. You expect a big guy to to lie down and say rape me?
>> I would expect a big guy to to try and build confidence.
>> Why do they need to build confidence and it just because you blackmail them and take take their bedroom or or or take steal whatever from them and they say, "Oh, I build trust. You can take anything you want from my from me. come to my house, take whatever you want. I am here to build trust. Which country would do that? Why do you expect that out of China? We are approaching the end, but I would like to speak with you about your native city, Hong Kong, which has been in the news um for a long time. Uh now, um why is China undermining the one country, two systems principle in Hong Kong? Why is it arresting leaders of students protest movement? Why um is there no freedom of speech as there used to be?
>> You know, you guys really don't know the facts. [laughter]
>> Okay,
>> we heard that before.
>> Mhm.
>> Do you know that under the Brits, if any newspaper were to criticize a British government, you would not be invited to the next government press conference?
>> You would perhaps not be arrested. Do you know that nobody's arrested in Hong Kong because of that?
>> Do you know that they tap telephones before 1997 by the British regularly? Even the list of names came up. One of them is on my board. So you think the Brits are saints? Think twice. I fault China for not abiding by the basic law. Not because they are too tight, because they are absolutely way too loose. They did not abide by their basic law because they have a policy. The best way to manage Hong Kong is to not manage it. just let it go. Let them manage themselves. Although the basic law demand that they play a certain role, they didn't. And so you have all those things that are happening. Do you know that the press freedom today is far more freer than it was under the Brits? You don't know that
>> because you don't believe it. you reject.
>> Why why is it then that for example one of the activists of the students movement Joshua Wong wasn't allowed to speak at the Asia society.
>> Good question. Thank you for asking. Asia Society of which I'm the global chair until November 1st last year. We never invited anybody to talk about domestic politics. We're a political organization. We never invited any progovernment legislature to speak. So why should we invite any pro uh anti- government legislature to speak? I don't want to be accused of being one-sided. Mhm. We never invited anybody pro or against the Hong Kong government. So why do you force me or the general public force me to accept only those who are anti-Hong government or anti-Bing?
>> But do you understand these young students and their protests? And do you have any any sympathy with them uh for uh demanding a more open and free um society? And
>> let me tell you what happened. What do you think will happen if when the mainland Chinese soccer team play the Hong Kong soccer team and the national anthem is played and the flag of China is hoisted, you have 50 college students turning their back from the flag and showing the middle finger. Is that what you mean by freedom? Is that what you mean by freedom?
>> You know what I mean by freedom?
>> That's the group of young people. Is it right to turn your back against the national flag and and raise your I don't want to do it. Okay. Not this finger but another one. When the national anthem is being played. There are other things in the United States where football players are also doing things when the national anthem is played and they this is possible. I mean you have if
>> America is not the standard.
>> China doesn't have to go by the American standard.
>> Mhm. But perhaps it's
>> Why do you want the Chinese to go according to the American standard?
>> They can burn flags.
>> Some countries you cannot burn flags. Mhm.
>> What make you think that America allowing people to burn the national flag is the only way to go? Fore speech.