How does a marketer influence people's behavior? This is a bleach for curtains. This is a bleach for tulle. This is a bleach for black lace underwear. Bleach for black underwear. Aggressively sell. The marketer's task is to find a new sales market. Everyone is unhappy with their marketer. A good professional marketer can sell anything. How to hire a marketer who will drown your business in leads? So, let's pour money into advertising, give it TV, media, outdoor. That is, a person must be ready to tear for your brand. [music] Friends, hello. With you is another issue of the podcast "On the Rise". And today we have a marketing guru. A legend. A legend. Viktor Shkipin, Senior Vice President of Sberbank, who made it Sber, but left after that. That is, no, no, no, it's already in the past, yes. Head of Marketing at VTB, Alfa-Bank, and the person who created Alpha Future People. And this, by the way, is not a trifle, it's already more than just marketing. Hello, Viktor. Uh, thank you for coming. And let's start. Stepan, you surely have a lot of questions. I don't have questions, uh, but I want to finally tell our viewers today in this podcast who marketers are. In fact, not like a very large number of people think now. What kind of people are they? How much are they truly titans of thought? How much do they influence society? Why do women shave their legs? Why do you buy a diamond ring when you propose? Why is Santa Claus red, not green? These are all the doings of marketers. And today, we will finally talk about this, about the influence of these people, about their place in business, about how they shape consumer culture, and what the meaning of their work is. Well, uh, let's start, probably, with the most, so to speak, with a definition. So, marketers and their work in general. What is it? How can we answer this question to our viewer? And why are marketers needed by companies? Yes, what is their job? Listen, well, it's simple. Uh, those who determine where the company is moving, what it sells, and what value it sells. Therefore, when I make such loud statements, my entrepreneur friends tell me: "Vid, wait, why am I in the company?" That is, it is always traditionally believed that where the company is running, who it works for, and how, well, with what product, what pricing, this is the lot of the owner or the lot of the commercial director. Right. Therefore, a marketer is, first of all, a businessman. The best marketers are people who have brains like businessmen. And the best businessmen are simply, by definition, brilliant marketers. That is, these are the two main friends in the company, the owner and the marketer. Even the commercial director, who traditionally earns many times more than the marketer, influences the company less when you have something to sell, when you have the right price, when you have demand from clients, buyers, selling becomes a purely functional matter. You set up a regional network, sales representatives, or put them on marketplaces. If the product hits, the so-called product-market fit happened, that's it. There's a good saying from some marketing grandee: if the product is good and the advertising is right, the sales department is simply not needed. People will just come to the window, put money down, and take your product. If you need a strong sales function, then something is wrong with your product. Or you've messed up something with pricing. So, sorry for the long answer, but the marketing function and why marketing is needed by a company? Uh, so that the owner and the CEO have someone to rely on in their thoughts, so that someone can vet his ideas and say whether they are right or wrong. And so that there is someone in the organization who is wildly dissatisfied, who walks around and bothers everyone and says, "Guys, aren't we doing bullshit?" That's the marketing function. By the way, today I had a call. And a person asks me, he says: "Stepan, how much, well, how much does a marketing director earn? That's how he asked me." I say: "Well, it's a strange question, of course, but I'd like to hear your opinion on this." I'm not a marketing director. It varies greatly. It depends on the scale of the business. And here, I think, any cost for a company should be within reason. In my understanding, any salary, I apologize for such a vague answer, but I think it's the most correct. Salary should be proportional to the piece of the pie that the employee brings. Therefore, it is obvious that marketing directors of large banks, large companies can earn six-figure sums, and in small companies significantly less. Simply because the turnover that you influence, if it is measured in tens of billions, and you are responsible for a billion-dollar budget, that is, the degree of responsibility, then, naturally, the level of competence that you need. And in my understanding, money is always equal to the level of responsibility very much. Therefore, from this point of view, it can vary by several times. So you can't give a number, did I understand correctly? Listen, well, in medium-sized companies, a marketing director can earn 500,000 a month. A marketer, with a capital 'M', as we consider a real marketer. Well, there are those for 500,000, of course, I think you have to look for them. I think, well, I think there are, depending on the level of business again. Listen, I think it's all a bit of a finger in the air. I'll answer completely differently. So, there are two favorite questions. One is: "How much should a marketing director be paid?" The second is: where to find a good marketing director? Ah, and there are two disarming answers to this. Ah, how much should a finance director be paid and how much should a commercial director be paid? And the person is like: "Well, there's some range, some amount." I say: "Why should a marketer be different?" Well, yes. And the second question is, where is the good marketer here? I say: "Where do you find a good lawyer? Where do you find a good salesman?" You look for them. And you go either to a recruitment agency, or you poach from competitors, or you train your own, right? So, this discussion that marketing should be different from any other specialist, and I'll counter even more. I'll say that not only the level of responsibility, but also the level of significance of this position in business, yes, undoubtedly. That is, conditionally speaking, somewhere in some steel production, a marketer has his own tasks, and he probably doesn't influence profitability very much. But in some startup, which is entirely focused on making a product or service fashionable, guys, he should earn more than the CEO, because everything depends on him. And, well, that's also an interesting thesis, right? Why should a marketer or any employee earn more than the CEO? The analogy is also simple. CEO or owner are different things. Ah, and owner and CEO. These can be different people, us. No, both are explained. No, when the owner is the CEO. Ah, yes. No, why? At certain levels, well, in one of my businesses, well, mainly, yes, in Dubai, in the Dubai one, our CEO is Tanya. Tanya, hello. She gets categorically You haven't seen Tanya yet, by the way. You waved so listlessly, you should have waved like kittens. Ah, so, she gets categorically more than we take out of the business. Why? Because in good football clubs, who gets more: the forward or the coach? Any of the forwards gets categorically more than the coach of that team, because the coach is not needed there if the team doesn't score goals. Therefore, you should be absolutely normal about the fact that if you have a specialist who carries the whole game, he should get paid. If you are an owner who has not yet started to receive any significant income from your company, you just have to accept it and wait that you have a team of people to whom you just pay, pay, pay, pay, until this whole mechanism gets going. Until you go bankrupt, or until you go bankrupt, or until, well, at least, if you go bankrupt, you understand that you did everything you could, right? You hired professionals, they ran well on the field. Well. And then you start taking out money, and already, well, they've done their job. Therefore, there is nothing wrong with your employees earning more than the CEO in the moment, and you as the owner, who is just waiting for a return on investment. Listen, it's also interesting, before we get to the kung fu of marketing, I recently heard an opinion at a conference from a rather large, very big headhunting agency, who say: "So you know," he says, "we don't know a single large business that is happy with its marketing director. Everyone," he says, "is just unhappy with their marketing now, but many are afraid to change." Uh-huh. Afraid to change. How can you explain this? It's just an interesting point, right? Because for me, this is a very understandable moment. This is a typical situation for Russia, that when you need to cut costs, what's the first thing you cut? You cut the cow's name. That is, marketing is cut, roughly. Then some time passes, sales get even worse, they say: "Let's cut something else, let's cut marketing again." Yes. And so it continues. And at the same time, dissatisfaction with the leaders of the function. How can you, how do you yourself look at this? Because I was very surprised. I, well, the conversation was about the job market and so on, how the marketing market is doing. He says, you know, everyone is unhappy with their marketers. I have a slightly different representative sample. And I'll say this: those who are really aggressive, those who want to develop, those who are driven, they are unhappy with their marketer. Those who, yes, everything is fine, who don't understand why marketing is needed, they have a good girl, she's been a secretary for 5 years, and he appointed her as a marketer after that. He's happy with everyone. Why? She also took courses on Skillbox. Ah, yes, another course. Yes, yes, yes. So, look, when you don't know what to expect, everything is fine for you. As soon as, as they say, Slava hasn't seen a carrot, you haven't seen it either. But as soon as you look around, listen to our podcast, you study as a leader yourself, and you realize that, as in that Mowgli story, damn, I used to crack nuts with this thing, right? As soon as you understand what you should actually demand from marketing, that your marketer should be an energizer and drive your business, you look at the one who is in that position and say: "Dude, why are you just doing corporate calendars, corporate New Year, and also holding two exhibitions a year, and that's it?" And he might look at you and say: "Uncle, what were you demanding from me?" And this moment, I like it when owners start being unhappy with their marketers. It means that they are at least starting to expect something from them. And when he is with you, as a dowry to the commercial department, bring this, bring that, well, something is running around, everything is fine. I'll take on the role of translator. So, the corporate guys from these huge companies are gathered, and they are just, well, if you don't know, in small and medium-sized businesses, half of what you're saying is incomprehensible. They don't have an advertising budget, they are dissatisfied. They are not that the marketers are dissatisfied, they don't have marketing at all. They don't have this marketing process. They do. I'll argue now. Firstly, I've already, as Zhvanetsky said, left big sex and switched to coaching. For 4 years now, I haven't had a secretary, a driver, or a marketing department. I'm my own, as in that wonderful vulgar anecdote about a small entrepreneur, he says: "I have such services because I work alone for now." Yes. Well. No, that's not true. I'll say that even if you work alone as an entrepreneur, 1/3 of your brain is your marketing director. If you have a team of five people, someone in it performs something else, including marketing. That is, are we definitely not talking, with Andrey, about if you have a marketing department and you are dissatisfied with it. You might have the function itself assigned to, say, the person who handles sales. So here, it's more about saying that a smart entrepreneur, understanding what marketing is, realizes that either he has no such function at all, which is already bad, or he realizes that the one who is supposedly carrying it out is not coping with it, which is also bad. Either you take it on yourself, or you need to allocate this function, right? So this is already a good start to a conversation even with yourself, when you realize something is wrong with my marketing, either you yourself are not doing anything about it, or the one you entrusted with it is not doing anything about it, or it's time to think about whether I have marketing at all. Now I will translate for you. So, nine out of ten entrepreneurs in small and medium businesses, 99 out of 100, they equate the words marketing and advertising. You say marketing, you say marketing, and they have an associative chain in their head like you have the word advertising. That's why I say that it's unclear what you're saying, because you're saying marketing, and they hear what we call advertising. Let's separate these into different countries and explain to the viewer what marketing is. How we understand it, but not at the level of strategy, well, market share capture and the answer to the sacred question, why us, not them, why him, not me. How should I have been in this mission, right? Let's just, well, let's break it down to applied Kotler. Here's another point. We need to explain what marketing is, how it differs from advertising. You'll shoot. Well, first of all, you've removed, of course, the most important thing, you've taken out the brain from the organism and you say: "Let's answer the question: why is it key?" It's key at all. But if we don't answer it, why do we have, for example, a brilliant product and so on, then it's also a very key question, not from the perspective of channels, but in what packaging we will deliver our product. For me personally, marketing is, besides creating a product, the shell and transport, how the candy will reach our consumer and who that consumer is. From this point of view, it goes beyond advertising channels. That is, first you need to understand who the buyer is, who thinks about this, who in the company thinks about this. Marketing. What is he like, what need are we fulfilling for him? Marketing. At what moment, at what moment should we approach him? With what argument to the buyer? So, according to your allegory, marketing is the one who makes the candy recipe. Yes. Yes. Not the wrapper, of course. And the wrapper. And the wrapper too. And the wrapper too. And from this point of view, this is marketing, the function, advertising is just transport. when we have created the product, endowed it with all the qualities, determined who will go for it, and have delivered it. This small movement, which is also very important. It is important, it is important, but without this part, without this part of understanding, it won't work. A simple example. Say, beauty salons, there are a dime a dozen in the neighborhood. Yes, there are many of them in every area. How can a beauty salon stand out from the rest? How to stand out? First, it's most often understanding the audience, in which neighborhood you live. If you have a neighborhood, well, I'll give my example, I live in Krylatka, right? It's a very different story, from the point of view. Excuse me, this is not an ordinary neighborhood, by the way. It's a wonderful neighborhood. Yes, yes. By the way, the best years of my life. Yes, yes. Far from Sau. We don't read from Sau at all. So the question of understanding, right? Who is the key audience? There are many beauty salons. At the same time, there are, for example, several quite affluent residential complexes, whose residents are now traveling to another district and would like a separate, special service, not like the mass one that everyone has. This is the first. Second, what service do you focus on, what are you best at? For example, there are massage salons, and there are anti-aging. Uh-huh. There are spa treatments, right? There are spas, and there are healthy backs, and so on. And the question. And how many anti-aging studios do you have? I like the voice with which this is said. Well, listen, how many anti-aging studios do you have in the neighborhood? If there is one, then maybe one. But at the same time, everyone in the neighborhood who thinks about health and so on, they are all your clients. And you have no competition. At the same time, this is just a reformulation of the product offering within. You have all the formal specialists. You need to organize this, say, invite a nutritionist. The question is: how should business think? And the answer to this question, for me, is marketing. Well, and now, and now the question. Yes. Here's your version now. I'll tell you now. What Andrey said is a great example of whose task it is to think about positioning, about who you are targeting, how you differ, the owner or the marketer? Yes. But precisely no. That's why I say that a marketer is your main asset in the company, because you think through him, he brings you hypotheses, he shoots them down for you. Therefore, the question of which niche you will occupy, how empty it will be, and how promising it is, your marketer answers. Therefore, uh, at one time, in my Telegram channel, one of the first posts had a rather provocative title: if your commercial director buys a Cayenne at the end of the year, then your marketer should also earn enough to buy a Cayenne, because it's their joint success. That is, if you met the plan or exceeded it, it means you sold at those prices that everything worked out. Therefore, the marketer sits to your right always. Viktor mentioned his channel. Be sure to subscribe and read it. It's very cool. I'm personally subscribed and read it. You'll find the link in the comments. Go and subscribe, don't miss it. It's really useful. I try very hard. Yes, I never thought that at 50 I would start a Telegram channel. And do you write the posts yourself or do you have a copywriter? Absolutely. No, always absolutely. I read about it on paper. Yes, yes. I liked it very much. Well, yes. Something hurt me. I write. So, picking up on the high note about beauty salons. So, look, everything is correct. Remember what Andrey said, the candy and the wrapper. Speaking of beauty salons, it seems like, well, what's there, what kind of marketing? In fact, deep marketing is to understand that within all this, the first task of marketing is to find that niche that is most profitable and most promising, or simply, in the end, where there is no competition. You can say: "We are a beauty salon for pensioners. We are a beauty salon for schoolgirls. We are a beauty salon for men, yes? Or for pensioner men. Who said they don't want to look good? Yes, we want to look good." Well. So, first, you find a unique niche, where it's not a red ocean, but a blue one. Next, what do they need? What services will they go for? And with what language to formulate it? Because you're right, you can just say, osteo, that handrosis, or you can say healthy back, you can say beauty, you can say anti-aging. So then you choose which projectiles will hit the heart of this audience you have chosen. Well. And then all this has already happened. You have a unique product, you go to sell it. You pay exactly the same for rent, you pay exactly the same to your doctors, you pay exactly the same for Instagram posts, and so on, and so on. And, but the problem is that you already sell a little differently, with slightly different words, and already for slightly different money, because any narrowly focused thing costs more. So, glass glue costs more than universal glue. A beauty salon for schoolgirls costs more than an average beauty salon. As soon as you offer something special, we'll talk about how we made Frau Schmied in one of the next posts. So, such a brand. We just took a donor. I believe that in business there should always be someone you are attacking, your feeding base. For us, Frau Schmied was the feeding base - it was bleach. It's ordinary bleach. We thought: "Why is it so standard with bleach?" Again, excuse me, translate, please. So we all understood, you are attacking someone, feeding base, but people don't understand that clients don't appear out of nowhere, that they are all someone's clients before that. We need to complicate it. I'll be here, like, I'll be, you know, I'll simplify. I'm on your side, guys. I'll translate for you, you know, for Let's go, let's go. Feeding. Okay. Feeding base, right? So you started a business. It's not that they will immediately give you clients, who will, you know, appear and print revenue for you. Of course. No, you have to understand who you will take from, from which product, from which counterparty, from which supplier, from which business. For example, we looked, there was Vanish bleach, there was a role, a bucket. And everyone thought, "Well, Vanya, these are monsters." But we made a lot of small formulations. We collected them from all over Europe. This is bleach for curtains. This is bleach for tulle, this is bleach for black lace underwear. This was our hit, by the way. Bleach. Bleach for black underwear. Well, laundry detergent. And what do you wash your lace underwear with? You know? I don't wash. You wear it until it's worn out, right? Yes, yes. So that it smells. It's more convenient that way. Well, partly. Well, everyone has their own preferences. Yes, yes. Yes. But in fact, it sells for more later in Japanese appliances, right? And you're not just, you know, so, as soon as you find these micro-niches, you can break down one product that you are hunting for, right, break it down into micro-niches and satisfy narrower needs. That's it. And instead of buying one thing, a decent woman now goes and grabs several products for each of her needs. And as I say, that we all, to show that we are the masters in the house. Each of you has shoe glue, right? Leather glue, glass glue, which we never use for anything. Then we throw it away every 5 years, buy new. So think, maybe there is some market for beauty salons. You say: "I'm not fighting with everyone, I choose them as a feeding base and I'll gnaw at them from this side." Well, by the way, from the point of view, no, excuse me, from the point of view of positioning, excellent, I'll give two examples, quite large international ones. And to the question of whether it's always necessary for business to go and look for a blue ocean and so on. The first is Dollar Shave Club. The guys went into confrontation with Gillette. That is, it's just a small company. They came from this business, who came out with the thesis: "One razor is enough for men to shave normally." And the razor should cost, like, $2. The company was eventually bought for a billion US dollars. This is the first. And the second story, I am even familiar with these guys, I was in the States at one time at a conference. This is Action, this is a deodorant stick, it would seem, they also came out, also a blue ocean, damn. The guys gathered in the kitchen, invested $200,000. They had everything they had. What did they do? Positioning, when people love to run, when they run, traces remain on their shirts. All the marketing was like this: "You ran, there are no traces." And all the marketing was not in media advertising, but people who run left reviews. $200,000 was the starting story. Such sales volumes, they were also bought by, I think, either Johnson & Johnson or Lever Brothers for a billion dollars. To the question of who invented it. Marketers are not merchants, because there is no uniqueness of the product, right? Not merchants, there are no innovations, not financiers. This was invented by marketers, both products absolutely. So I'm starting the Skolkovo EMBA module, where there are wonderful business owners, the first persons, and I show on the slide the names of departments in the company. Lawyers, financiers, security officers, IT, salespeople. I say, guys, which of these departments can increase your turnover tenfold in a year? Everyone says: "Well, probably, I don't know, salespeople, security officers can, yes." Well, and you need to know the scheme. Yes, and salespeople, I say: "Go and ask them to sell at least 30% more. And even then there will be a revolution from within. They will say:

"How should we sell?" Like, give us this, give us that. And who else can do this? They say: "Well, okay, since we are on the module, on marketing, we will answer marketing." Now explain why. I say: "Exactly that example."

Because commercial people, they will not come up with new ideas for you, they will not come up with a new sales market for you, they can simply, how to say, sell more aggressively. The task of a marketer is to find a new sales market.

And my favorite example, when, ah, do you remember, in Moscow there was the first such building, Donstroy Scarlet Sails. An apartment there cost a unit of dollars. And all the market brokers, they hunted for new Russians, as they were called then, and tried to sell them these apartments. The product was the same, the discounts were the same, the prices were the same.

And one guy, at his own expense, took a vacation, flew to some conditional Neryu, he says, there's a long pass, to some large oil-bearing plant, and for a candy and a cognac, he arranged to speak at a board meeting with such a free question. And he just said: "Guys, where are you going to live when you retire?" They say: "In Moscow. And where will your children study?" In Gubkin. And where will they live? Well, somewhere.

He says: "Guys, let's get the best house in Moscow right now, you can afford it, and there, for the uncles, it was, well, normal spending money, right? He left there a dollar millionaire himself."

So, what did he do? He sold a product that existed, was on the market, to which no one had yet offered it. That is, and it is precisely in this way that marketers are obliged and can increase your turnover 10 times.

They can say: "Listen, this thing that we sell to this industry, maybe try it here and here and here. Somewhere it will take off." There. And that's precisely why there's such high demand for marketers.

That's why, going back three questions, why are they dissatisfied with them? Because a normal owner, he understands with his gut that this guy can find him something new, something huge, and he sits and deals with, ah, Instagram posts and New Year's calendars.

And this is where dissatisfaction arises, even with the agency, the advertising budget is discussed in correspondence. Yes. Yes. All day long.

And, by the way, another thought along the same lines, about what you said about One Dollar Shave Club and your example about salons. And sometimes you can act asymmetrically, not in the main discipline, but in a parallel one. That is, One Dollar Shave Club won not because of the product, but because of the delivery system, remember? A subscription system. Yes, subscriptions.

They didn't fight with Gillette. Where it's impossible to fight with Gillette. Can they make a product better than Gillette? No. They said: "Guys, we'll give you a subscription, and a new razor will be delivered to you every morning or every few days somehow." That is, they approached it with a different value.

Exactly the same with beauty salons. I recently went to a barbershop in the morning to shave. I opened Yandex, and nowhere, damn it, near my house is there a barbershop open from 8:00 AM. Well [expletive] Well, really [expletive] Well, because you, you looked at it as an owner, and you understand that you're bringing out one "hare" who works from 8:00 AM or 7:00 AM and all the business beards. He doesn't even need an administrator. Came, opened the salon, poured himself tasty coffee, sat, waited.

Absolutely correct. Because when you're a bearded businessman, especially on Monday morning, you need to shave. I don't know how you solve this problem. You wait for it to open, right, until ten. But it's no longer 10:00 AM. There. Well, overall there's no problem. Shave Club, right? There.

Well, that is, you understand, and I never, for me, ideal marketing is when a salon opened in Patriki, they only do hairstyles for women, they do nothing else. No matter how much money you offer them, they won't cut your hair. They do a 15-minute styling. Well, a madam arrived in Patriki, got her hair freshly styled. Absolutely correct. And left, yes. There, that's marketing.

Or you live in Patriki, you need to get your hair styled before work, right? So, well, that's it, let's stop, stop, stop. Pot, don't boil. I wanted to hit a sore spot. Sorry, interrupter. No, it's all right. You just need to, you've picked up speed, you're great.

Listen, next, it needs to be for money. You, yes, the continuation is for money. The question is, why not? Here's your monetization. Of what? Well, what? Oh, up to this point, then *beep*, and then, then go to the paid channel. Yes. And go to Viktor Shkipin's channel about marketing, to Andrey Sokin's channel about management, marketing, and everything in the world, and to my channel about what pains my soul.

No, well, I don't have significantly fewer subscribers than you. So, first of all, thank you very much for your answers. Uh, it really makes you want to draw a line. A very big problem is that in business, people confuse marketing with advertising, because advertising is this visible part, right, what we watch on TV or somewhere else. And it's very easy to reduce it to that.

I have a different analogy. That is, when it's boring to explain according to Kotler that marketing is product, price, place, and advertising included, I say: "Listen, really, marketing is the best analogy I've found - it's boys meeting girls."

The entire process from how a boy dresses, how he chooses how to dress to please a specific girl, chooses a place to catch her to successfully meet her there, and chooses this grand approach that he will tell her, meaning, and also chooses the girl herself, so that, well, like, he can successfully pursue one, but he cannot successfully pursue another. This entire process is marketing.

If you want to understand, the best film about marketing made in Hollywood is "Hitch." Uh, exactly where the guy helps boys meet girls. The entire process he goes through with them is what a marketer should do.

Well, also find, package. 100%. And you know what many people are thinking about now, and I'm specifically working on this with many. And now several very large businessmen have come with this task. I am grateful to them for speaking honestly about it. Each of us is a brand.

The boy, as I described, goes on a Friday evening to meet a girl. He first mentally draws the image that the girl will fall for. That is, he tries to get into her head. He thinks that way, right? He understands that if I wear some kind of this brand, it will be too flashy. I'll catch some desperate provincial girls there. If this, if it's without any brand at all, then I might even end the evening without a provincial girl. There. And so on.

He tries to get into her head, to look at himself as a product. From the buyer's perspective. And this is the moment when a person begins to realize that he is a brand. And when I work with people who, ah, how to say, come to me and say: "Help me work on my brand," we break it down using absolutely the same criteria as Andrey breaks down his own brand, right, as I broke down the brands of Sberbank, Nvido, there, Coca-Cola and so on.

That is, we look at who his target audiences are, because we, as a brand, have several. Our parents, our friends, our wife, our children, our employers, our children's teachers, right? That is, there are many, many for whom we must be something.

And the first question, as you rightly say, and he teaches, well, girls for boys, right, he, you look, you put yourself, as imperialists say, in your parents' shoes and think what you need to do to please them. You look at your children and think what you need to do to be a hero for them, what will be these markers for them, right, primary, secondary, tertiary, right?

Next, you look at the reason to believe, that is, you can claim something, but we marketers know that people now simply don't believe anything. They need, look, I say A because B C D E. And then everything, when you work with your personal brand, who are you? I am so-and-so, how will you prove it? And look, third-party opinion, emotional evidence, rational evidence, right, show what's under the hood, right, and so on, and so on.

Therefore, it is very... And you hit the nail right on the head. Each of us is a brand. And when we start thinking about what we are like as a brand, damn, do the same with your business.

It's not just by chance that Viktor always wears red glasses. It's not just by chance that I'm always wearing a hat. Ah, oh yes, those are red glasses. I decided to make it just my, well, such an external marker. I hope that, uh, as in that joke, that Lidochka knew all of Eugene Onegin by heart, but they didn't extend her because of that. There.

And I understand that I wouldn't want to be remembered for red glasses, and you wouldn't want me to be remembered for a hat. No, that's what I wanted. Ah, well, you, but I want to. Yes. Well, I'm still younger. I, you'll come later, yes, then we'll only fight. There.

Ah, that is, as a brand, you must possess certain attributes, as you say, with whom you partner, how you look, right, what signals you send out there. And, guys, I beg you, please, remember that there is a digital footprint behind all of you. Where you go, with whom you speak, what you comment on. Uh-uh, make a fool of yourself once and then it's very expensive to clean up your reputation online. So remember that you are a brand, and to spoil a brand, as we know, is very easy.

Well, by the way, an excellent thesis. Uh-uh, if we are all brands, then we are all marketers for ourselves. And from this point of view, here's an excellent, simple story, when people, if we talk about personal marketing, and it's also marketing, and our channel is about growth, about everything, about such a mature position and about different aspects of life, not just about business. So, we say that in personal relationships, this is wonderful.

And a simple example, getting a good job for an employer. You come to be hired, and that's also marketing, how he looks at you, as what, how you position yourself to a potential employer, how you present yourself, as whom you are perceived.

And at the same time, in many industries where there is a shortage of employees, marketing, brand marketing of the brand, is the question. Often, when hiring a great specialist, I will honestly say that as a marketing director of a fairly large company, I also have to sell the company and the position, understanding, so that I understand that this person has a wide choice, many people are hunting for him, and I really need this specialist, and I really want to hire him.

And what is this question about? And this is also marketing, and what kind! This is organizational marketing. Yes. So, regarding hiring, excuse me, I'm moderating everything strictly. A strictly excellent topic. Don't let them, friends, don't let them gloss over this interesting topic. Call, write, speak.

Here, Shkipin started talking about marketing for employees, and we will talk about that now. Thank God, my favorite topic. Well, by the way, I have a question. I thought you wanted to gloss over it, there, well, I wanted a kind of, well, personal question. Interesting.

I can claim that the analogy about dating will go into Zembov's lectures with a reference to me and say: "Like, Stepan suggested to me: 'Great analogy, dating marketing.'" He, by the way, teaches in the next auditorium. Here you can listen to his lecture on management. Go on, go on, listen. Ah, with pleasure.

Listen, every case must have an honest name, right, and that's exactly where you're going, by the way, about the importance of marketing. I'm studying at that very EMBA, and Viktor taught us. And I want to say from myself that my personal observation, uh-uh, the group is large, many entrepreneurs, and in every module I observe how much people write.

For me, the indicator of a good lecture on a popular topic is the notes. Uh, it's engagement, firstly, how many questions are asked. And secondly, it's the notes. So, in your lectures, uh, first of all, well, the guys said it was indeed one of the best modules, very strong. And secondly, I saw how much the entrepreneurs wrote.

Mm-hmm. Are you aware that you can now decrypt things? Entrepreneurs. Well, obviously. Listen, you know, you don't write what the lecturer tells you, you write the same thought. And a good entrepreneur, he doesn't even write a thought, he writes a to-do list. Remember, I said right away, he writes to his HR director about this.

Listen, do you remember I asked a question? I always say on the third day: "Guys, raise your hands, who has already fired their marketing director properly, so that a third would fire them." Well, because really, if you're all, let's go to us, to us. Everything to us. I understand it's not right. Oh well, okay, let's go. To us, to us.

So, look, I saw, in short, on the internet, you won't believe it, so, but I saw courses, courses that were called something like this. So, how to hire a marketer who will drown your business in leads? [laughter]

Well, that wasn't a cheat as an answer, but let's ask how. Well, that is, wait. Well, first of all, let's pay attention. The question for you, everything you said, what you said, what is it? It's clickbait. Absolutely, yes. They hit the pain point directly.

They understand that most entrepreneurs don't understand the difference at all, that a marketer shouldn't bring leads, but he has a pain, and he probably understands somewhere that it's more likely a marketer, not an accountant, who should bring leads. Therefore, what was said is an awesome example of how people sell their courses. Yes, maybe there, if they are decent people, they will then say that, guys, there's marketing, there are leads, there, these are different things, but they hit the pain point. Hitting the pain point is incredibly important.

I had such a professor from whom I studied. He, uh, was English and no, American. He used to say that "when I see pain, I smell money." When I see pain, I smell money. That is, the example I gave is when they understood that, aha, what is the main pain point for the segment of entrepreneurs - leads. What do I sell? I sell about marketing. So, I will connect what I have to their pain. Glued it together, illogically, but they certainly got leads themselves.

About hiring, about hiring. Well, come on, come on, come on. About hiring, about hiring. The next question is of interest. Objectively, from the point of view of how we see it, marketing here, three, so three old marketers gathered. Uh, well, Yan, I'm younger than you. And this, this will pass, as I know. There. But you won't see it anymore. [expletive] what. Perhaps, Stepan, perhaps we will see it. With your eyesight. We will observe you from above. With your eyesight. Well, I'm fine, not much. She's 40 years old.

So, uh, a good marketer, where to look, how to find. And most importantly, a very important question for you, how to check, like how to vet, what to look at, what in their experience to look at? Because it's obvious that the one conducting the interview, well, even an average marketer, he'll kind of, well, throw smart words at him, uh, overwhelm him. We know that, like, as it was said in scripture, well, not by words, but by deeds judge. So what should you pay attention to?

Here I divide, ah, in hiring, two such centers of competence. The first obvious one is hard skills. And for this, there is a certain competence map that describes what a person should know, at what level a person should be to master the subject and do something either hands-on, or even if he works with an agency, he could check the agency.

Because it often happens, Viktor gave an example, right, they appointed a secretary as a marketer, ah, and hired a good agency. Question: will a good agency work well? Not a damn thing. Because if an unqualified person tries to manage even a very cool agency, nothing good will come of it. There's a wonderful saying, "as the brief, so the creative." Yes. Yes. Yes.

The second question, which for me is probably much more important, is how a person thinks. Unconventional thinking. And I just bombard them with questions and points, for example, a question. Listen, I can ask any task from the market. A simple, simple example. You have a product, ah, and we need to launch it into such-and-such a market. What will you do? I don't set limits, for example.

Or, for example, our STM share, uh, in the ZO segment, for example, is 15%, we need to raise it to 25%. Give me an action plan that you will implement. If a person starts telling me: "So, we'll pour money into advertising, give TV, media, outdoor, and so on." That's not for me, not our way, because I can easily delegate that to an agency.

If a person says: "So, what kind of product do we have? And in what niche is it? And in what niche? And for whom is it? Is it premium, non-premium? And who are our competitors there? He first asks me the right questions, and then starts looking: "Aha, then I would do it here, here, here, here, like this." And this built-in communication part, and then, and the channels remain outside the scope altogether, then this is my passenger, this is a person with whom I will gladly work.

This is not a passenger, this is your brother, it turns out, your team, your command. Team, team, of course. So, Viktor, here, well, nothing to add, nothing to take away. Everything is correct.

I answered exactly the same as Andrey. I would say, and the most important thing is to check if he has oil pressure in his head. What for? Well, is he not a fool? There. Ah, well, that is, in fact, it's really important to understand the logic of thought. That is, by the questions he asks, and how he approaches the problem, if he floats on the surface, how to sell, that's definitely not the way.

If he delves into the essence of the product, if he starts thinking about who we are for, what pain we solve, how to segment customer bases, and starts looking for the problem not in a lack of communication, because there's never enough money, money is always needed. There. And even at Sber, even at Sber, even at Sber there's a budget that needs to be divided into some segments, because everyone wants, all business lines want, I thought Sber had enough art.

Well, Sber is probably the only unique place where you can implement what, what, when, what I liked most there, that for any initiatives, ah, funding will be found. One and two, there is a sufficiently large credit of trust in marketing. That is, if you consider it necessary, you must be prepared that in nine out of ten cases they will be dissatisfied with you, you will take the blame, but they will give you a chance. And this is how strong companies differ, Sber is simply ready to back it up with money. Awesome.

There. But now a little about something else. When I hire employees or, well, hire or when I consult companies, I'm sometimes asked: "Look at the guys, and pick, help me pick a marketer." And very often I say: "Guys, if there are marketers among you, ah, write to me in private messages if you're looking for a job, send your resume." That is, I honestly start working, without even wanting to, as a recruiting agent.

Khanuma. Oh, good name, right? Khanumarketing. Khanumarketing. Ah, the creative hasn't died. Copywriter. Hasn't died. Keys to the pun room. Please bring them here.

And this understanding of how many questions a person asks. And, uh, immediately flowing into the second part of your answer, the question of where to find them. A person must have a burning eye. Because I've seen when they take a person with such, as in that joke, as in the movie "Our cable is certified." And he has such a track record that you immediately want to marry him, right. And then you see, a person sits there very tired of life. Oh, there is such a thing. He has already seen everything, been everywhere, and everything is already normal for him. And you understand that he came to you simply, well, to continue his career path. To wait for retirement or, well, or to wait for retirement or there for a mortgage, so that he can pay the mortgage, by the way, in my opinion, this is the worst candidate.

No one, dear viewers, there is no one worse than a demotivated professional, because no one else explains so expertly why it won't work. You are absolutely right. Well, yes.

And, and you as an owner, why do you need an EMBA? Well, Andrey won't let me lie. An owner is obliged to understand, at least by one bayonet, as they say, what each of his departments does. Otherwise, they'll hang such noodles on your ears, a financier can generally, as Anna Blinovskaya will tell you, lead you to ruin and and further, yes, a marketer can simply clip the wings that your product or your company actually has. Just let such a "hare" loose.

His main thing is not to... Can I use another word, not "hare"? But my surname is Zaytsev. And I kind of understand that, yes. I didn't think, didn't realize, yes. And, uh, some Velo-Zaytsev is sitting there, for whom the main thing is to pay off his sluggish mortgage.

Yes. So, I have this saying, that it's better to have a person who has never been involved in marketing in your company, but he adores your company, adores your product, his eye is burning. You take one of your specialists, train him, and such a person will become a much more valuable asset for the organization than a sluggish, very expensive, very serious specialist.

That is, a person must be ready to fight for your brand. And then he will be a normal marketer. Then he will go around and "chpok" everyone. Production, guys, you're not doing it right. Salespeople, guys, you're not selling correctly. You're not calling back immediately, right, he'll "chpok" finance, guys. Why do we have such pricing? Let's try differently. That is, a marketer must be incredibly passionate, and you can't buy passion with money. You can buy competencies.

And that's why I always say: "Guys, you'll find the most passionate person, or you take a fan of your brand from social media, they say: 'Dude, I like how you argue with everyone in chats for our brand. Come to me, let's try to work together.' And then you take, ah, someone from some grandees and take them. Guys, you won't drive your business into debt if you take one of the good specialists for half a year. Just put through, train this person, set up a proper KPI system, you can take any 'hare'." Yes, that's the best advice.

There. And you will both improve the KPI system in your business, and train the person, and at least see for yourselves, right. But then, in the end, you will have a wonderful, driven person who will fight for your brand by inertia. There. Yes. Well, three people. Well, guys, this is truly better.

I have better confirmation for this case. There's a sports goods store, a chain with an orange sign. I won't say which one in the podcast. It's exactly the same story there. So, they took a person who managed another department, but was devoted to the company, very loyal, very energetic. And for a year we worked together with this person. This was even before the lockdown.

Mm-hmm. And until now, this person, you've seen him from the outside, right, this person? Well, we, I, it's all just like in my example. I was a mentor for a year to a person in a large company, meaning, which is 30 years old, where the marketing director was not hired, but cultivated through this invited mentor, a loyal, meaning, very energetic, very interested person. A year of work and still, 6 years have passed, I support it.

I also have similar cases in terms of mentoring and a certain "over," because often specialists of this level lack a vision code, ah, but it can be attracted. These are hard skills, they can be taught. And for soft skills, I want to return to Viktor's answer. Please, because one of the points is, well, a burning eye. That's super clear.

Let's add, gentlemen, such a basic gentleman's set for a good marketer, because, well, we understand it exists, so to speak. I won't believe it now if you say that we say, we consider a person a professional marketer if he previously worked for 10 years in a company with an advertising budget of 30,000 rubles a month. Well, he simply didn't have the resources to try anything. Well, your question is about the weight of the game. Games, yes, you can show on a very... Your answer, the gentleman's set of such a marketer, what he has in his baggage, look, competence at the budget level is still needed. Not necessarily billions, but I often see when people did it, they just, well,

They are incompetent at this level of budgets. This, well, should not be a giant gap. That is, figuratively speaking, a person with marketing for 500,000 ends up in a company with a budget of a billion there. Why? Because the channels are different, the split is different, the tasks are different. This needs to be understood. Either you take, as Viktor said, a mentor who helps. What is important is that, well, I would add from myself, a very important story that now, it seems to me, I'm interested in your opinion on this topic: awareness, trends, and patterns of behavior change so quickly, and in marketing, it's very important to catch up. Often, you can simply boost a company by catching some trendy things with a minimal budget. Here's a simple example. Now it's labu, it's, you know, girls on a swing. I was sure you'd mention it. You've already started selling it. Question. That's exactly what I wanted to tell you about. The trend of "bu" started. We have no "labu" for sale, or there are few. Marketing is like: "What, what to do? How to do it?" Well, we have "faglers," scary things with teeth, these stories. And we're like, I say: "Guys, I don't know what we have. Right now, "labu" will come to us. "Faglers" are "labu" for the rich." We have "faglers," and we, well, we launch a story with these "faglers" on social media. And what happens? That is, at that moment, a young audience appears, like a protest. "Labu" is about brands, and they start pushing "faglers" themselves because "fagler" is cool, and we raised "labu," and we raised this trend. I tell my team: "Guys, this is the question, this is the thinking that is super important, awareness. You see a trend, super," it's important to see it. And moreover, when should a marketer see a growing trend very early? Because when everyone sees it, it's already too late, everyone will do it. And he sees this and responds to it, yes. And this awareness is extremely important. When you are 360, it hasn't started in the general field yet, marketing already sees it. Cool. I had a student, who said: "My competence, he is your competitor." But he is, of course, at a completely different level than, say, Detsky Mir, but he imports goods from China. And there are many who, yes, make relatively easy money. But those who succeed are those who are the first to catch the trend that will happen in 2 months, because logistics are needed to buy for distribution. Remember those things that spun like this on fingers, spinners? Spinners. He made money on that. Attempts. And then, yes, attempts. And then this very interesting story, when again, it's a businessman, it's an owner, or it's a marketer, he must understand that, uh, it started trending in China. Out of ten trends, only one reaches us. You won't buy all ten, right? So then this understanding of how to correctly catch the hype is also a huge competence. Those who are watching us now, surely many trade on marketplaces. And you can get into trouble with a product like that, by not catching the trend. And therefore, this, well, this can only be done by making mistakes, yes, by making mistakes. Anyway, okay, the question we had was different, awareness. Let's add awareness. Listen, I will probably be too academic and boring, but I will never call a marketer someone who doesn't know how to work with research, who doesn't understand why research is needed. Applause. You don't necessarily have to graduate from sociology, but if you present any of your hypotheses to management based on "I'm an artist, I see it this way," then the answer is no. If you don't have money for research, go launch it on Telegram among your subscribers, say it with GPT. And what? How much for GPT? By the way, it's clear that there is professional research, some super expensive ones that we buy from research companies, with focus groups, large research, and so on. But if there's no money, then you were significantly cut off from information before. But in the era of neural networks, first of all, you have a browser that automatically translates from English to Russian. If you can't find research here, look for something there, look for an analog, look for some kind of case somewhere. It used to be difficult to do this in different languages, now it's easy. I understand where you're going with this. I will say categorically no. I will argue here. If I am the owner, and you come to me as a marketer and say in the header. In the header, plus, but the minus is that you come and say: "Listen, I did some research, I asked ChatGPT a question." I will say: "Dude, seriously now. You want me to invest money, enter a new region, buy a new product line, introduce a new category, change prices, because ChatGPT told you something?" And I will answer yes. Why? Because clients on Facebook are a prohibited organization in Russia, in social networks. Clients, figuratively speaking, I am young, I can speak like this. So, the "pogonty" have already been banned. So, uh, well, respected people on social media brag about asking ChatGPT what pills to take based on their tests, and they take them, and they put their health on its answers. And if they put their health on its answers, then money is even cheaper. I am not interested in the health of "kinty." I am interested in my money. Listen, look, from the point of view, I appeal from the point of view. Let's, let's add some practice, when there's no money, as the great one sang, there's no love. Yes. Yes. With research, how to research when there's no money, let me help. Yes, I say that there should be a practical story. First, there is research like exit, when a buyer leaves a store and is asked something: "Can you, with minimal effort, even your future employees, employees of the regional office, and so on, stand near competitors' stores and ask people: 'Why did you come?'" No one will take you to the police for this. This is done calmly. Without you standing on the store's territory. It's allowed. This is an important point. Well, you can't brag about this on the platform. Well, sorry, sorry. This is the first point. The first point. The second, the second point. Thank God, there are panels, there is, there is Buron, there are panels where, in principle, for 100-200 thousand rubles, if you don't need, like, I don't know, I sometimes have a problem. Let's look at all diaper buyers in Russia. It's expensive, damn it. But, but if, but if, but this is a global product, when you launch it federally across the country. For a small business, you can create such a panel, identify triggers, and do it automatically for 50-100 thousand rubles. Don't exaggerate, let's return the word. Yes, why is it absolutely correct? So, I just mean a panel is when you join with someone else, yes, or you just buy the results. Uh, our researchers in Russia have had everything for a long time, for almost all categories. Some they just post for free, some you can simply do desk research, assign them to find research on this topic with a clear sample, with clear geography, a clear timeframe. And I'll tell you, GPT can help with this: it can help find that classic, correctly done research that answered your question. Yes, in no case should you make an aggregated decision from ChatGPT. And I'm provoking, as you understand. Yes, yes. Then look, I have one more life hack that I'm just giving away. The cheapest and simplest research you can do is to survey your front-line staff, those who communicate with clients every day, they know everything. At one time, I worked at Coca-Cola, I had a long journey at Coca-Cola from a sales representative in St. Petersburg to the retail marketing director for the CIS. And when I worked in the field in St. Petersburg, beautiful nymphs from Moscow, from marketing, in white pants, very beautiful, came and taught us how to work. They explained to us how to sell, what advertising campaigns awaited us, what arguments to use, gave us some scripts. And I said: "Listen, my good one, you sit here with me, in my old car, sorry, the seat is worn out, there's no air conditioning. Let's go, I have 40 visits a day. Come on, you go and actually hear what needs to be done to sell more Coca-Cola than Pepsi is squeezing us out, what advertising campaigns are working, what, on the contrary, are ruining our image." That is, those guys who make 40 visits a day, sit in the call center, stand behind the counter. Guys, they know much more than the board of directors sitting on the thirty-fifth floor. And this is the research that your company must have. Once a month, marketing, or a marketer, or your assistant, doesn't matter who, collects this panel of opinions, what helps you sell, what hinders you from selling, and you listen to it, damn it, as the first question at all your beautiful meetings, where you have pens, water on the table, please, listen to the voice of your salespeople. This is a very, very important point. This is research. Research, yes, I fully support. I have a question there, sorry, a lot of expression because it's lived experience. I support. And the lower a person is in the organizational hierarchy, the more they know what works and what doesn't. They can write the script themselves. At NVIDIA, at one time, when we wanted to strengthen the promotion of a particular brand, a particular category, I gathered the best salespeople who sold this brand best in Russia, or were leaders in sales of this category. When we needed to promote miles, we simply took guys from all stores who sold miles best, in proportion to other cars, and asked them: "Guys, how did they come to us, they explained everything." Then it's formatted as a script and given to all other salespeople. And the sales of miles went up. Because we didn't, forgive me, we didn't try to force things from the office over tea. We just went and asked, guys, how to do it. Guys came, said: "This is how." We said: "Great, thank you, it all worked out." Listen to your front-line staff. I want to illustrate with a very simple life hack. I recommend everyone not to neglect Hollywood in the sense of how they know how to make business biographical films. There's an awesome movie about Domahozeka, who made those mops with wringing. With wonderful actors. And there's a moment when she comes to their meeting, shows her mop. He says: "We are all marketers and researchers here." And she says: "And I'm a housewife, I wash floors." Like, I know better what a mop should be like. It's heavy, it hurts your back, there are other things. At one time, I heard from a top manager at Amazon at a conference, he says: "It's very strange that business so closely monitors negativity regarding clients, that they don't like NPS, CSAT, and so on." And this experience is studied to improve business. Very rarely does business, under a microscope, study its happy clients, trying to understand why they are happy, what makes them happy in the company, and project this experience onto it. That is, turn around a little from negativity, look at the positive, this is what you are talking about, and pay attention to the delighted clients. What, why are they happy? Perhaps this is excellent food for marketing, in part, how to make others happy too, by focusing attention. Listen, respect, awesome point of view. I will definitely steal this thought for my channel and even write about it today. Everything is correct, because you are right. We look at why the bombers are not reaching us, as in that famous case. Everything is correct. Or, with simple steps, you can understand. Only look, very important, I am a fan of this idea when not all clients are equally useful. You look at clients with the best LTV, Lifetime Value. And you look at them and understand: "Oh, I want exactly such characters for myself, right? To clone them, you need to understand why this, and I always love the word "hares." Why?" In this sense, you can. This is a good meaning, yes. Why did this hare come to me? He's good. Good. I'm happy with him. I'm very happy. You sit this client on your lap and say: "Dude, let's talk, what do you want for New Year, my sweet?" That's for New Year. You say: "Listen, what did you pay attention to? What communication? On which network? What words of mine caught your attention? What product did you buy first? This is very important. What product do you come for? No one comes to McDonald's for a cola or fries, although money is made on this. Everyone comes for a good burger. You need to understand, children come for fries better. Children, especially, well, perhaps, maybe they really focus on fries. We have a client, our company CoffeeMani, we have been working with them for a very long time, and they have a competition among chefs for the best children's dish. And only once did fries not win. Well, yes, well, there are really masterpieces made there, and the chef who invented the dish that won against fries is like a demigod there, well, well, guys do everything perfectly. I don't really understand the CoffeeMani phenomenon, but I understand one thing: the reason for one of the phenomena is consistently good quality and delicious food, which they, like McDonald's, may their souls rest in peace, know how to replicate. And you go in, this comparison is not liked. No, but it's a shame, because McDonald's, the beauty of McDonald's, besides many, many things, you remember, I spend a whole day at McDonald's in Skolkovo, but they have achieved that when you go to New York, you go to Singapore, you go to Tver, you know what to expect. And this is what CoffeeMani is incredibly strong at, that they managed not only to create awesome products, but they managed to maintain the quality of all their locations. This is what I wanted to tell you about: only McDonald's is united by standardization and taste, while CoffeeMani is united by service. Teresa by service. When I met Igor Zhuravlev, he is the owner. Looking at him, after talking, I just understood why CoffeeMani is like that. Because when we came to talk about something, the first thing he asked was: "Are you hungry, do you want to eat?" I say: "I've already eaten." He says: "No, no, first you need to eat." I'm like, first, this. I say: "Listen, now I understand why you, why why you, why this is just such a love for what you do." This hospitality just radiates from him. I say, marketing or not marketing, he creates the impression of a person who loves his job. And second, I carefully watched a long interview with him, and a film, perhaps Oleg Torbosov also did one with him, and Pasha Gitleman, many Grebenk Mimi Mishnyuk did Grebenk, yes. I really liked it. In him, I saw a healthy, calm, unpretentious system. Very cool. Still, returning to me is difficult. It's okay. It's just that I had many lazy employees, and I'm very used to, like, we remind you of them, yes, like. It's okay, it's okay, it's okay. I feel very acutely when they try to knock me off track. Yes, I'm an old grandpa, but I still have my thoughts. Yes. Speaking of good clients, you just gave a ridiculously cool presentation. And, uh, this story when you try to dissect, uh, the best clients, which none of us do. What burger did you come for? Then, I repeat, it's very important in which channel you saw the communication. There's a wonderful anecdote about how a Brazilian national football team coach came to a Russian team training session and sees how our coach is drilling all the footballers. He says: "Listen, why are you training everyone like this, so that everyone does the same thing?" He says: "Because they need to be versatile, and everyone should do this, and this, and this." He says: "No, I do it differently. I understand the strong side of each of my players, and I only develop it in each, but to a cosmic level." So you need to understand these best, best, your most profitable clients, what brought them to you. And only replicate that. Because why do you need other clients if you have 100% of people with high LTV in your database? To hell with the others, let them go to your competitors, yes. That's why it's an incredibly important story. Guys, please, listen to this part of the program again, up to Andrey's comment about how one of the... We started with research, right? Research is not necessarily this, this, this research is when the owner himself goes to his salespeople, goes to the best clients. Wonderful Mikhail Peregudov, founder of Food Party, who successfully sold to Yandex. Misha, you owe me a bottle of wine because I introduced you to Yandex, they bought your business. Not good, right? You bought 911, you promised me wine. Well. So, he himself asked his assistant, she would export an Excel file for him every Friday. For him, CRM was an Excel file. The most profitable clients and those who have been with the company the longest. And he called them all, saying: "Hello, this is Misha Peregudov, Food Party, you are my best client. Can we talk?" And people, especially when the owner calls, introduces himself as the owner. Well, you have to be a completely hopeless creature not to talk, right? Yes. And people talked, told stories. And as soon as you, as the owner, start doing research, consider that you already have research in the organization. Here's another super tip. Excellent practice of Detsky Mir. For those who follow my social media, you regularly see that two or three times a year, where am I? I am in a children's store in absolutely any role. I carry carts, I arrange goods, I stick stickers. All this is for what? In the window, yes, to understand your business, not at the level of "I'm here on an inspection," of course, but as a line specialist, and store directors have such a task to show. And you don't have it in the rules, this must be in the rules. This is not my rule. This is a labor landing party, the entire office, including the general director. Including the general director, and Mary Ivanovna too, including, start, if she doesn't do it. Well, of course, of course. And Masha, in this regard, sets an excellent example by the fact that really, on some day, soon it will be back to school, and you can see Maria Sergeevna Davydovna, the general director of Detsky Mir, working in a t-shirt in a store, and the entire top management as well. Want to understand your business? Go out into the field. McDonald's, which you are talking about, had a golden rule. All top management had to stand in the hall. Moreover, this is what many McDonald's have stolen as an idea, as a technology. I'll say more, I was their supplier. I was responsible for working with McDonald's from Coca-Cola for several years. And moreover, I have a rule: all those who work with you, your main suppliers, and they also should, well, if employees stand twice a year, sell burgers, then we, as suppliers, once a year. Or I stood at the checkout. They don't let you at the checkout. Not at the checkout either. Checkout is certification and so on. I was frying potatoes. As it happened, one of these labor landing parties caught me. I say: "Guys, sorry, I'm on a business trip in Austria." They say: "In 10 minutes, they sent me the address of a restaurant in Austria. They say: "Go there." I say: "I'm not very good at Austrian." They say: "It doesn't matter, you'll be there, yes, you'll be frying patties." I threw out a whole tray of shrimp with my own hands. That is, it was around the year 2000, maybe the third for us, breaded shrimp at McDonald's. I threw it all out with my own hands because the deadline had passed, they hadn't bought it for 15 minutes, we throw it out. So it was monstrous. Well, they have this practice, when you understand that, that it's really not a deception. It's not a deception. McDonald's, yes, McDonald's lives by this. But, you know, there's another amazing second part to these labor landing parties. When lawyers, security officers, tax officers go, you slightly remember who pays your salary. Because many departments in organizations are engaged in preventing, not taking risks. And half of my time, as a marketer, and yours, is spent fighting internal demons. And if the entire organization plays for the marketer and passes him the ball so he can score, then the organization is successful. But when you, as a marketer, have to go around, like no, you have to prove that you are not [ __ ] that you are not [ __ ] you have already proven it, but they still try to explain that, yes, once again, look here, there's this paper, here's that. And therefore, in those organizations where I work as a consultant, I say: "Guys, you need to set up all your departments so that you all play for marketing, for sales, and go out into the field." And before my eyes, when we arranged such a thing in one organization, the chief lawyer complained about how many papers he had to fill out. And he was consciously, everything was staged like that, he was put in a position that should sell, and his task is like, try to sell. And he says: "So, damn it, I spent 3/4 of the time filling out damn papers." They asked him in short later: "So, maybe we should change the processes?" He said: "Damn it, yes." So, this story that everyone should end up in the field, everyone should understand who pays the money, because otherwise it turns out that marketing cannot be the only one who understands customer pain. Everyone should understand it. Marketing and HR cannot be the only ones who understand employee pain. Everyone should understand it, yes? And there, correctly, absolutely, like Maria, as the general director, it is the owner's task to be in the field himself. He himself started from the fields. And he should push the employee. Listen, you see what a big topic. Your question about research and all this. By the way, I also spent 2 years at the Detsky Mir reception desk accepting returns and playing music. I can even name specific Detsky Mir stores where I sat. Really. So, I think that moreover, you can write 100 points on how an organization can increase sales, reduce returns, and so on. Well, then I could, but now, then now I can't. That's Andrey's job. Well, then not Andrey, Andrey works diligently on this. Yes, well, by the way, by the way, a simple example. Just the simplicity, this is also an excellent case, I'll tell the guys, yes. For Detsky Mir, like for any large retailer, a queue at the checkout is a problem. Well, it's a problem because it immediately ruins NPS, people stand, and during peak hours, and you have a balance between and so on. The question is, our research, Six Laboratory, which was tasked with what to do about queues. And there were many options. After that, guys came, stood behind the cashiers, stood, watched, watched, watched, then they said: "Listen, there is a standard operation, to do it, you need to press four buttons. We can change it to one." They changed it to one button, it flew. And how simple, as an example. Just as an example. Was it difficult to program? No, was it difficult to identify? Listen, all this we would have identified if we had initially talked to the guys and given them a word to say: "Guys, if you could speed up the queue, what would you do?" But this is a slightly different form of work. I have a friend Oleg Braginsky, he even organized a school for troubleshooters. I know him. Yes. Yes. A huge smart person. I worked with him at Alfa-Bank. So, he does exactly that, he stands behind and goes through the processes. And you just need to want to do this, yes. That is, really, when you really want to reduce the queue, you want to increase sales. To increase traffic, you need to understand how much we lose on queues, etc., etc. You start to sort it all out, and in the end, you realize that you put four damn operations on one button. But this restlessness of the first person, the restlessness of the businessman, the restlessness of the marketer, this is what makes great companies great, yes, when everyone is restless. And this continuous kaizen, yes, if today is good, tomorrow should be even better. Today clients give us 4.5, so tomorrow 4.6. Let's do it now. I want to do this, but I also want to answer my own question, which I asked half an hour ago, and supplement your wonderful answers to also be useful, so as not to be just thinking I'm interrupting you. So, from the gentleman's set of a marketer, which should be in everyone, to the ability to work

With research, burning eyes, and all of the above mentioned by colleagues, I want to add that he must definitely be a good manager. No one usually asks this in interviews, but if you simply count how many minutes of the workday are spent, on what the marketer records, it will turn out that he spends about 80% of his working time on management and accounting of the processes he manages. This is his operational activity. If he is a brilliant creative, a magnificent strategist, and all that, but he cannot simply set these wheels in motion as a leader. It doesn't work, his deadlines are missed, his employees cannot work according to them, it won't fly. This is the first point, a very important one. And the second, I want to share, uh, I want to share a life hack for interviewing marketers and, by the way, not only. And you will then say how you think this life hack works, doesn't work, that I use it myself. If you are unable to conduct an interview with some professional employee, for example, a marketer, because he knows more than you, and you only know about the market, how much he knows, then there is a fantastic life hack that I use. For all his answers, ask three to four clarifying questions, because asking clarifying questions is not a problem at all. But the truth is that a professional relaxes from clarifying questions because he knows all the answers. And if the question is idiotic, he will tell you directly that you are asking about something that does not exist. And a dishonest unprofessional person gets tense from clarifying questions, because he thinks that you know, since you are asking, and now you will expose him. And simply by observing how a person reacts to clarification, one, second, third, fourth, going deeper, you can calmly draw a conclusion: "Pro, not pro." What do you say? By the way, cool. Good, cool. I've been using this for many years. Well, in that case, well, brilliant advice. I usually just invite an agency that knows better than me. You can use this for any profession. Really great. Even for interviewing housekeepers. And now the client. Yes. Now look, we had a very cool analogy that Viktor said. Yes. Forgive me, I'm interrupting again. You've given me an idea that is also very, very important. I will simply regret it if I don't tell you about it. A good professional always spends part of his energy on clearing out bullshit. More precisely, he builds his path through bullshit. That is, a good manager is different from a bad one. You said all this correctly, that a marketer should also be a good manager. For me, the sign of a good manager is to make his work effective. A weak manager and a weak person, coming to work, accepts all the rules of the game. He says: "Yes." Damn, but what bureaucracy you have? But how do you have this, how do you have everything bad, here this, here like that. He sighs sadly and gets into this game and becomes part of the bullshit. Don't fight the bullshit. The task of a strong person, a strong manager, and even a strong boss who hires a subordinate is to ensure that the person does not lie down under the processes, but actively fights the bullshit within the organization. That is, and I didn't learn this right away, I learned this by the age of 40, that it's easier to fight, but to eliminate the processes that you or your people will be dealing with three-quarters of the time, because you will be judged, your boss, collectors will not judge you by how heroically you fought the bullshit. But did you achieve the result or not? You say: "Yes, I fought the bullshit. There's so much bullshit around here." He tells you: "No, wait, tell me what you did?" Therefore, guys, when you start your first job, meaning, first go to your workplace in the first month, understand, separate the bullshit from the non-bullshit and do everything possible to either shift it to someone else, to subordinates, to other departments, to anyone, to relieve yourself, right? And regulations help a lot. Yes, I learned from VTB about regulations. You became an emperor of regulations, right? I became one, because my senior colleagues explained to me that, let's put it this way, regulations protect you from bullshit. Create, approve, sign, then it's not mine. Right. And then your hands are free to engage in creation and receive annual bonuses for what is expected of you. Yes. And in parallel, as a bonus, you will gain the reputation of a very structured, systemic person who fights for clarity of processes. Even if you are not like that. Don't compromise, don't compromise with bullshit. It's good for you, for the organization, and for your bonus. Exactly. Accepted, accepted. In short, transition. Well, you agree, it was worth it. I actually fully support it. I was showing off to the camera. Showed off. In short, you said the next topic very well, that everyone should be able to, as the song goes, "try walking in my shoes," right? So, walk in other people's shoes. And I think it's very important for our viewers, for entrepreneurs, for future potential marketers, to highlight people, why people react to something, that is, how people react to marketing. There are so many wonderful, cool cases. I even want to use this as an example to start the conversation, and we'll talk in this remaining block about how a marketer influences people's behavior, even shapes behavior culture somewhere. It's normal. My favorite case is the store "Pay Less" and "Polesie." So, maybe now I'll tell you, you'll remember, they took a store of cheap mass-market shoes, simply, well, expensive. Overnight, they redid the whole thing, so instead of PLS, Pay Less, they called it Polesie. And they invited designers, bloggers to the opening, rewrote the price tags 10 times, and filmed how they reacted. They were like, "Well, this is real luxury, this is delight." And it's the same cheap shoes, which were simply with rewritten price tags. What do we see? We see that the product packaging, the external reaction from bloggers and others, it all starts to influence your behavior. The war of iPhones and Androids. This is my favorite story. This is where, well, bloody bloody battles. I even know, well, people's relationships break. A girl stops dating a boy if they have an iPhone, Android. It happens. Why? I really like the joke that every Android owner spends an average of 7 minutes a day explaining why they didn't buy an iPhone. Well, I hope I haven't offended anyone. Well, well, as an Android owner, I don't confirm this. Twelve minutes. In short, tell me, Viktor, what do you think, why does this happen at all? That is, why do marketers have such a strong influence on people? Should marketers have some responsibility for this? How? Well, yes, from the perspective of people, that is, how should people relate to a company's marketing? Sometimes it's completely toxic. Or can marketing be ecological for a business, good, promoting something valuable? Yes, I'll add. Yes, people often think that marketers are pushing something on them, and when they push something on you, you don't notice. Here, here, here is the question. Ordinary consumers, far from marketing, and this is the majority, even we ourselves, figuratively speaking, often fall for it and live in this world, but there is a negative perception of marketing. As Stepan correctly said, when marketing is good, we enjoy something, make decisions, without even thinking, where is the dividing line, this is important, and from the consumer's side, but it will still be a reference to marketers. Well, the question is very relevant, because marketing carries a huge responsibility, because a good professional marketer can sell anything, good or bad, and many marketers sell bad things, yes? And therefore, there is responsibility, because people can be very strongly, you know, as in that book you already mentioned, do not tempt, do not tempt these little ones, right? That is, you should not provoke people into actions that lead their lives, their priorities astray, right? And because what is marketing? Marketing is creating value, or rather, no, I'll say it differently. First, creating value, and second, then selling that value. If you start creating value from some nonsense and actually sell it to a person, something that he really doesn't need, but it brings you a lot of money, then this is probably absolutely categorically wrong, right? There are marketing advocates, they will say: "Wait, but I still sold him value. He got pleasure in the moment from what I sell." He came to the arcade. Yes. Yes. He lost his wife's paycheck, lost it. He got pleasure, he got it. Everything, he paid me for pleasure. In principle, there's nothing to argue with, right? Because you sell an emotion, right? On the one hand, everything is correct. On the other hand, this understanding that you are selling real value that will make a person's life better, probably there is such a dividing line and criterion for what is good to do in life, what is bad. But here again, it's not just about marketers, because in the same arcades, financiers, salespeople, builders, security guards also work. They also participate in things that are not very good. Yes, it's just that the marketer, being at the tip of the spear, can multiply the work of all these people tenfold, or simply leave it somewhere somewhere. Therefore, toxicity, non-toxicity is also very important that marketers should always ask themselves the question: "Am I selling something that people don't need? Am I diverting their money to something they could use to educate children, relax, go on vacation? Because, in general, we live in a world of false symbols. And, we understand that, in principle, our civilization is going a little bit in the wrong direction, and a person can spend several years of his life to buy a better car. A person can spend 10 years of his life to move closer to the center to an apartment. Yes, we are not taught to separate what is imposed on us from what actually brings us pleasure in life. Listen, it's interesting, as a marketer, but looking from the perspective of an ordinary person, do people have any chance to resist this? You say: "You need to separate." I agree with you. That is, the ethics of marketing, for example, remains outside the scope in this part. But can an ordinary person in the world of media, this environment, background, and so on, resist this or even understand it, translate it into conscious action, is he capable of it, is it possible, or is it just rhetoric, but we understand that all people will somehow be either victims or heroes of marketing, or predators, or prey, right, yes, or prey, but in any case, they will live led. Listen, let's. Yes, let's. Well, well, you two tell me, you already. Well, I understand that it's definitely right to ask the question, have you achieved enlightenment in this area? Because anyway, if we had achieved enlightenment, we probably wouldn't be doing all this, but would be playing at home with children and reading, yes, good books. But no, we need something. But to both of you, the question is, can you say that you have at least, you know, if you can't walk in that direction, lie in that direction. Have you already lied in that direction, that these external imposed markers are not important to you? Or is it, okay, I'll ask more carefully. Ten years ago, and you ten years ago, did you become wiser, did you fall for it less, or conversely, do you have even more Christmas tree ornaments hanging in front of you now? Well, that's actually one of my arguments from those 7 minutes when I explain why I don't have an iPhone, but because I fell for it less. At some point for you, to some extent, a symbol. Well, let's not get into symbolism. The story is that we still buy and consume something. And I still need clothes with a logo sometimes. It's just that there's a difference between someone buying clothes with a logo because their dream is to buy clothes with a logo, and there's a utilitarian conscious moment that I understand that I'm going somewhere now, well, to some place, and I just need to dress appropriately instrumentally there to be perceived correctly. I buy. You haven't achieved enlightenment yet. Well, then I'll find out now. Ah, well, I go to church too. If we're talking about that, but I'm doing business, I have a job, I sometimes attend events, and in Russian culture, they meet by appearance. If we're talking about, yes, about the logo example, it's a very simple story, but if we're talking about something else, I am a modern successful entrepreneur who has enough income to meet all the demands of girls from Patriki. I have an ordinary Chinese car, not a luxury foreign car, because it's a good car for its price and quality, which solves family tasks. So, I haven't updated my phone for 3 years because it works. It's the most ordinary phone. And now I'm sitting at a podcast, and I need to make an impression, but I'm not dressed in any logos to make an impression of a successful entrepreneur. So, what I managed to achieve by working in marketing, yes, I'm not so susceptible, I pay attention from a business point of view, but I buy goods that are needed, not those that are sold. Well, so, yes, answering everything you said, only one thing bothered me, that there are events where brands are needed. No, no, it's not the brand that's needed, it's dressing appropriately. Sometimes it's a brand, sometimes it's not. Wait, and as a senior colleague, if I can say so, there's a 10-year difference, you shouldn't go to those events where brands are needed, which look outward, right, because at the events I try to attend, any brand on the outside, except for some cheap ones, will be perceived as rather negative for a person. When if someone in my circle appears with Louis Vuitton, Fendi, Gucci, then those people with whom I strive to communicate in life, they will look at such a person very askance. This means, well, I'm sure you don't have such clothes, right? This means that something is wrong with the person, right? Either he is not someone with whom it is worth doing business or communicating, right? But I would say, the presence of a good tag here is at some point more important. There is such an interesting aspect, it's called Self-reward. It's very rarely talked about in marketing. It's very wrong to think that people buy expensive goods to show the whole world that they are successful. Very often people say: "Listen, Vasya is good, Vasya is great, tell yourself." You endured this asshole boss for a whole year and still earned your bonus, treat yourself with this, with this, right? That is, and you need this, or as they say, you deserve it, right? This is a wonderful, powerful marketing symbol. Therefore, when you do something, tell a person that, by buying me, my beauty salon, my cosmetics, my clothes, my resort, you are buying it to show, to say thank you to yourself, to that little Masha, to that little Petya, to that little Vitya, who sits inside you and should be pleased. Yes. And this self-reward is a powerful driver that marketing should also use. It is used very little. We always somehow say, buy this so that others see it. And few say: "Buy this so that others don't see it, but you enjoy it." Everything worked out for me. When I shopped at TSUM for the first time, I was amazed by everything that was happening. This stylist stood next to me and whispered in my ear: "You deserve it, you're great, you can afford it." And I stood there, I realized that I could afford it, but I, well, I just grew up a little differently. This is bullshit. How would I answer this question for myself? I have definitely learned with age and experience to understand influence. And I just understand it clearly. Where is the marketing component, where is it not. And then it's just a matter of priorities. That is, I choose things, probably everything, because I like them, regardless of the tag, brand, and so on. But the story with encouragement, you are absolutely right. It is. You encourage yourself with some brands. Yes, that's it. That's just encouragement, closing some gestalts, some childhood ones. So I absolutely don't care who thinks what about it, because, you know, I enjoy hugging something, or sitting down, or doing something. This is self-encouragement. I don't care at all what anyone says. Notice that we are all showing off, that we, yes, we are not like that, I'm waiting for the tram, we all buy for ourselves, but damn it, deep down, for self-encouragement, you, you, me still have a list of brands: ding, what we'll treat ourselves with. I have Sony written on all these brands, because it's PlayStation games. It costs 5,000 rubles. Well, that is, and in fact, we still need to understand that brands live, we just use them to satisfy different values. And including, even when we move towards enlightenment, I have a very close friend, Mitya, who can buy any car. He bought a Skoda. Just a beautiful, brand new car. It's just an amazing car. In fact, it's just that Skoda is not currently on the Russian market. What they are doing now is beyond good and evil, but for him it's absolutely natural, because he doesn't strain himself, he doesn't please himself, he just chose, absolutely no noise for him, he takes what he wants, he liked it, he bought it. I have a very close friend Marina, who can, dress in any clothes. That is, she absolutely, yes, can wear anything in the world. She says: "I like Ralph Lauren." So she wears this tweed, cool, denim-tweed, cozy, cashmere stuff. This is her. So it's not cheap for me. It's not cheap at all, yes, but she buys it for its consumer properties. And the smartest people send signals with whatever they wear. There's a good joke, if you read the channel, it was there. It's not a joke, it's supposedly a real story, when remember, Abramovich was the first to start wearing cheap Cali. No, it was either Swatch, or Casio, something like that, it doesn't matter. Ah, well, it was definitely with some watch, yes, let's call them Casio. And he was the first among all the oligarchs to do this, everyone was like: "Wow, Roman Arkadyevich is giving it." And there's a funny story when one of the junior managers came to a meeting with an invited question: "Damn, he also has some Swatch." Abramovich looked at him intently and said: "Young man, isn't it too early for you?" So we all send, yes, some of your Omega? Give it back, yes? Yes. Let's stop showing off, yes? You are still entitled to expensive watches, yes, like everyone else, yes? Therefore, never, that is, always, when I say, for example, that I work with people as brands, yes, there, consulting, this is where you should always, well, not start, but it's one of the derivatives. How does your product look? No, there is nothing that people don't read. Everything about how you are dressed, how you behave, where you live, whether you talk about it or not, yes, it all sends small, small signals. There are no unimportant things. Therefore, as soon as you start building yourself as a brand, you have to, as they say in the army, prepare the plywood for inspection. You have to very clearly go through all aspects where your personality integrates with the universe. What signal are you sending with each of these things? If you are building a brand, excuse me, you will have to dress somehow, you will have to drive something or talk about it or not talk about it, and so on, and so on, yes? So there are no unimportant aspects. We are such creatures that we cannot just be ourselves, right? No, you can be yourself, but you have invented who you are anyway, right? And then you owe me, if you want to send this signal outward, that this is you. That is, if you say: "I, I, I, here, here, I have a very close friend, a very famous actor, and at some point, the one with whom you had a podcast recently and you wrote about it in your channel? Let's not talk about it, yes? And at some point I started saying: "Why is it like this? This is, I say, quite a, well, a kitschy story. Why? Where from?" He says: "You know, I realized that I want to relax. I honestly answered for myself that I have always liked this, this specific flashy golden style. He says: "I've been breaking myself for many years, then I thought: 'Damn it, I like it, it's me.'" Yes. Therefore, when you express yourself, you also think about it, you are clearly like this now, who do you want to be in general? But I still read you through external attributes, yes, and you show me through them not who you are. But who you want me to perceive you as? Absolutely. But we come to this point. We've gotten quite deep. I like it. That's good. Guys, we're still sober, by the way. You need enough strength within to understand that if anything, well, you know, you're not afraid to make a wrong first impression. And this saying that you can only make a first impression once, [ __ ] it's once for you, I have plenty of resources, I'll have a second chance. What do you think about this hellish lagomania that's happening now, where everyone is like, showing off their watches, sneakers, filming TikToks about it? It's always been there, all the marketers' tricks, it's always been there, I think it's always been there. Well, why, guys? Well, if we even look at such a blessed swamp of the Soviet Union, warm, in which everyone sat and didn't croak, guys, then there were no fewer markers of success than now. Moreover, they were even clearer then. Because the gap was bigger. The gap was bigger. Figuratively speaking. Do you have a Kopeyka Zhiguli or someone has a six Zhiguli, yes? Or someone has a Volga. Or someone has a Volga with a driver, and someone has a denim jacket. And someone wore bell-bottoms. And what is he showing by wearing bell-bottoms? And someone, figuratively speaking, went to Bulgaria. And someone moved from a communal apartment, you know, to a private one. So, listen, in any society, even among slaves in Egypt, even among people in a concentration camp, I am sure that there are always some markers when one shows that he has achieved something more than another. Unfortunately, and to our great regret, in the world this measuring often happens by external attributes, and not, uh, in some field, how to say, intellectual. Therefore, I really like those communities, those cultures where people consciously move away from external factors. Monks, whether Orthodox, Tibetan, or Arab guys who wear kanduras, yes, which are the same. And this is what I'm spending a lot of time in Dubai now. I really like their approach, no matter how much money you have, you look the same as, say, your, I don't know, classmate who is younger. I really liked the story that is now lost in education, that in school there was a school uniform, a formal uniform, just in some schools it exists, in some it doesn't. When it doesn't, it's a very specific story. Any communities where you can stand out due to your human qualities, or due to your intelligence, or due to something else. So I really believe, in principle, that this consumer society, unfortunately, is leading humanity in the wrong direction. Well, okay, why am I like some kind of preacher now? It suits you. Uh, let's do a blitz, very short. Short, short. Blitz, what do we buy today? Things or emotions? Always only emotions. Got it. I fully support that. When does consumption stop being the norm and become an addiction? For everyone, the line is very different, and for each category, the line is different. But the moment you realize that you are constantly thinking about needing to buy something, you are already, damn it, completely off track. If your head is filled with purchases, not creation, not work, not children, then, guys, you need to be treated. Is it possible to sell ecologically? without inflating artificial demand. Well, you need to create products so that demand is not artificial, but natural. It is possible and necessary to sell ecologically. And moreover, I think that any, well, if marketers are watching us, then guys, believe me, that most of you will eventually come to the point where you want to work in companies that are cool, beautiful, and honest. Well, we have to strive for something in life besides a salary, right? So I think one of the main joys in life is, first, not working with assholes. And second, it's working in companies that are truly meaningful, create meaning, and create value. Create value. Therefore, this is the highest, in short, the highest joy of a marketer is to earn a lot of money in an organization that is pleasant to work in, which creates meaning. What? What do you think awaits us next? Will people move towards consciousness, or will there be even more consumption, will the consumer society develop? Your prediction? Mmm, I think humanity will be very divided. Some will move more towards consciousness, others towards consumption. And but it's gratifying that there's a good saying that I'm waiting to tell my young son, because he doesn't understand yet. But I will tell him my favorite formula, that those who read books will always rule those who watch TV. Therefore, society will still follow those who are about meaning, about spirituality, and for everyone else, consumerism will remain. I support that. And the last question. Yes. What product or service would you not advertise for any money? Yes, many such, a whole list. That is, everything that destroys families, destroys health, destroys, uh, values. I would not work in politics in Russia now. Thank you. Well, we have Viktor Shkipin, the best marketer in the country, as our guest. Yes, and Andrey and I are also nothing. Thank you. You've been listening to the "On the Rise" podcast. All that we discussed today, links to Viktor's channels and our co-hosts can be found in the description. Subscribe and don't be indifferent. Be sure to leave comments after you watch this episode. And we'll stay in touch, on the rise.

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Тренды маркетинга, которые взорвут ваш бизнес! Секреты топ-маркетолога Виктора Шкипина

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