Responsible Gold Mining Principles

[Music] [Music] Well, good morning everyone. It's a pleasure to have you, like every Tuesday, joining me in front of my, you know, fireplace in Miami. Probably the only fireplace in Florida. Haven't used it since I've moved in, obviously, and probably won't use it for the next few decades.

Today, I'm actually very, very excited because we have a, you know, a very esteemed guest, a good friend of mine, Terry Heyman. Which, I mean, we were just before I opened this, this conversation, we were just recalling good memories of breakfast and dinners and drinks in London. So that was a, that was a good conversation. Hi Terry, how you doing today? How are you?

Very well, thank you. Nice to see you, Remy, and thank you so much for inviting me on today.

My pleasure. I mean, we have a lot of things to talk about. I mean, I'm very interested in, you know, what the World Gold Council has done for the few years, a few years back, to you today, and especially with the Responsible Gold Mining Principles that you recently released. I mean, we're gonna have a lot to talk about.

I just want to mention right away also to, to our attendees, that as always, this is meant to be as interactive as possible. I always have my eyes on the chat. So if you have any questions, you know, I'm going to try to grab it and put it inside the conversation so that Terry can give us his perspective, both as a, you know, mining industry veteran. Gosh, I make you sound like a, you're gonna hate me before the end of this, but anyway. And from the World Gold Council also. So please do feel free to do so, to, to ask any question.

As always, a little tradition that we have here is that my favorite, but for the first, you know, two minutes, I'm gonna use that time just to make our little, you know, present our disclaimer. So basically, the opinions expressed by today's panelists, so that would be lovely Terry, are their personal views and may not reflect the views of the organization that they represent. Whenever possible, AMI has verified the accuracy of the information provided by third parties, but does not, under any circumstances, accept responsibility for any inaccuracies should they remain unverified. It is expected that webinar attendees will use the information provided in this webinar in conjunction with other information and with sound management practices. AMI, therefore, will not assume responsibility for commercial loss due to business decisions made based on the use or non-use of the information provided in today's webinar.

Not only is it very dry to read, but you had to understand my French accent, which hasn't improved since last week, and I don't plan to have any, any, any improvement in the near future. But as I was saying, first of all, thank you for joining us. You probably all know already about America's Market Intelligence, with you, a lot of, you know, counterparty risk assessment or advising to mining companies for social license to operate, a series of, of understanding, especially up above the ground risk. We also have AMI, African Market Intelligence, that now covers also, you know, 36 out of 54 countries in Africa. So still a little way to go, but usually the most important countries. And so that, that's for AMI.

Let me just maybe turn to, to Terry. I'm gonna ask you a very hard question, Terry. Maybe for some, I don't think there's any, but that don't know about the World Gold Council. Can you just tell us first, a little description of the World Gold Council? I told you that's gonna be away from the hard questions. Good for you.

Well, of course, very happy to. And let me just say again, thank you for having me. And it's so nice to have a conversation with somebody, and it's a, what, one-on-one. And of course, welcome everybody else who's this again. But it's a very different experience when you're say, hear one-on-one with with everybody else again, and you've been good and got your coffee. I'm afraid I'm, I'm already work significantly through the day. I'm in London. So that, the World Gold Council is the market development organization for the gold industry. We really exist to make sure that gold continues to be relevant in today's world, and that people understand the role that gold can play. So we are a membership association. Our members are the world's leading gold mining companies, 26 of the world's leading gold mining companies, names you're recognized from the biggest miners in the world, like Barrick and Newmont, AngloGold Ashanti, to some sort of companies. And just recently, Hummingbird Resources joined, a small producer operating out in West Africa. And all of our members share a commitment that gold plays an important role in today's world. Gold has, has played a role that gold is well understood for thousands of years. People often ask me, Terry, why does the World Gold Council need to exist? Everybody knows what gold is, and the more gold is valuable. And that is true, and there are very few people familiar with gold. I think what's changing is society and expectations, the role that gold can play, how gold is used as a store of value, and we're seeing that at the moment that play out very strongly. And also this broader question as to what is the role of gold mining companies play. And a lot of the recent work that I've read has been talking to that element around responsible mining, and what does that mean? And, and why is the mining industry important in, when responsibly undertaken, contributing to sustained social and economic development in the countries and communities that are fortunate enough to have gold reserves in the ground. And remember, you've done a lot of work in that area and are familiar with that. So, look, we're based out of London, and we're really very global in our, in our intent. We do quite a lot of policy work, engaging with policymakers about the design of markets, gold markets, and particularly in China and in India, the world's two largest gold demand markets. Gold in both of those countries, and indeed most of Asia, is predominantly bought in the form of jewelry, but in many ways, it's wearable wealth, and it's a store of value. Gold has an office in New York, a lot of connection with the institutional investors marketplace as well, as we sponsor a couple of gold ETFs. And then we just engaged globally on issues that are related to the gold market.

So absolutely. In case you have the chance, like I have from time to time, to talk to Terry and have an open conversation. I mean, now that's so many, you know, interesting conversations on the importance of gold and the vision from different societies. I remember one conversation we had specifically on jewelry in India and the importance of how, you know, especially in gender relations, in issues of, you know, traditional societies, how the perception of gold and a role that gold plays into maintaining some societal structure or potentially moving forward in one direction or another is very different from one country to to the next. And I think that that's something that, you know, we sometimes tend to be, you know, very much focused. If you're a junior miner, you focus on your exploration and drilling campaign. If you're an investor, you focus on the stock exchange, another other element. But I think, you know, if you, when you talk to people from the World Gold Council, there's this comprehensive vision of what gold means and how the sector itself should be reformed, improved, and integrating a series of different variables. And one of these, you know, transitions, Terry, to the issue of sustainability. Obviously, we're seeing across the, the, the, the industry, a push towards more sustainability in terms of, of sourcing minerals, in terms of ensuring transparency of supply chains, has been pushed by consumers, by the markets, by a series of, of norms. And I know, obviously, we are reaching to the, to the Responsible Gold Mining Principles. But this is not the first initiative that the World Gold Council takes. Can you actually give us a little bit and a perspective of a series of different, you know, indexes and and and and and and guidelines you've encouraged for sustainability in the gold sector, please?

Of course. So, like, a few thoughts on that. I mean, I'm speaking to that connectedness, if you like, across the entirety of the gold supply chain. Okay? It's a privilege of working at the World Gold Council that we get to see that. And, and I have been at mines and, and, and been and seen at the, your face where the gold is being extracted, through to refiners, and understanding the role that refiners play in this industry, to spending time in, not just in China and India, but probably particularly in China and India, given they are such important demand markers for gold, understanding the mentality towards gold in, in both of those markets, and how people think about gold, the role the gold plays in, in people's lives. And the fact that gold is so important in terms of financial security and financial resilience. And to me, that all comes together in this idea around the gold markets contributing meaningfully to society. And it relies on and is underpinned by a sustainable gold mining industry. And so I think we're seeing across the board this, this questions around, and actually, I think it's being exacerbated by COVID and prompt some interesting discussions. What is the role of business? And how does business contribute? And how does business make people's lives better? And I see that in the gold industry across all parts of the gold supply chain.

So, to answer your question, we give a little bit of a background of some of the specific initiatives that we've worked on at the World Gold Council. And again, what we do is predominantly looking at demand for gold and think about who's buying gold, why they're buying gold, how that changes over time. I was on a call earlier today, just talking about changing retail consumer demand for for retail jewelry in India, and how, as all over the world, children don't want to do the same thing their parents did, want to create their new traditions, and what that means. And, and it's interesting, just in this broader perspective, but although the vast majority of our focus is on demand, we've recognized for a number of years that there is, as you say, this increasing question around sustainability, around responsible business, and responsible sourcing, and what that means in the gold context. Because it's been a little bit of time in in Florida, and certainly in the UK, and many other places, you go into your supermarket, and you go and buy fresh produce, and you get a lot of information now as to where that comes from and how it's been produced. Is it organic? Or is it produced like this? And I thought you were gonna say there was a lot of gold in Florida, but that's much more into the supermarket and a store, much more than in the ground here. But that's fine. Yeah.

You know, I think it's just an interesting perspective to look at this broader question around responsible sourcing and responsible business practices and expectations on what we know about where our goods and come from and the path that they've taken to reach us. And you're right, consumer interest is increasing across the board, probably different sectors at a different pace, and happy to talk about that. But we're also seeing about increasing interest now, particularly across the investor community. And investors understanding. And let me go back to our paths. Our paths really started back in 2010, 2011, when there were questions starting to be asked around gold as it related to severe human rights abuses and, and particularly in regard to serious issues of conflict. Now, I think everybody, you're certainly I'm sure everybody in the call, be familiar with concerns around diamonds and blood diamonds and some of the developments that had happened there. And some of these questions were starting to be asked around gold and, and other minerals, with a particular focus, but not limited to, the Democratic Republic of Congo. So we were asked by our members, and I'd stress it really as a member-led organization, to CEO and that organization, our board comprises pretty much the CEOs of all our member companies, and very much under their direction, we look to what the gold mining industry should be doing to address concerns related to the severe human rights abuses and, and, and serious conflict. And that led to in 2012, us putting out the Conflict-Free Gold Standard, which is the first industry-wide approach to defining how you operate a business responsibly in conflict-affected areas. That's important because the gold industry finds itself, as you well know, in at the frontier. Often, it is an industry that that goes into where the reserves are, and that often means going into higher-risk jurisdictions and, and figuring out how you do that in a responsible manner. But crucially, and this really underpinned the work on the Conflict-Free Gold Standard, and it underpins work continuing today on responsible gold mining, where you can go and make a positive difference, you should do that. Because so many of these countries and communities need that economic activity, need that capital brought in, need the skills to be able to develop and transform their economy. So the Conflict-Free Gold Standard was really the starting point in many ways for us. And we went through a very extensive consultation process. It was linked in to some of the international efforts that were going on at the time, the OECD in particular, as was doing and is continuing to do a lot of work around responsible sourcing. I'm happy to come back and talk on that if you've got more questions.

The other big initiative that we, we've looked at and done, and probably people on the call be familiar with, and it comes in a bit of a different angle, but I think it's very complementary, is again, at the direction and instigation, really, from our members, looking at accounting for gold mining and how to develop metrics that speak to the economics of gold mining, you know, in a way that communicates clearly and consistently the costs associated with gold mining. And so that led to us in 2013, I think, putting out the guidance note on all-in costs and all-in sustaining costs. And you'll be aware, and that very quickly gained traction across the marketplace. And it's unusual nowadays to find a gold mining company that doesn't report using all-in sustaining costs, and sometimes all-in costs as well. And really, the driver for that was to help better communicate costs associated with gold mining. It's a really important part of the overall sustainability agenda, to be able to explain where the value goes, to be able to explain the costs associated with gold mining, and to have proper grown-up conversations about how those, that value should be equitably distributed across governments, across the the shareholders in companies, across others who are involved in in managing to produce gold, employs community representatives, others. So, yes, it's an accounting metric. It's a non-GAAP accounting metric. They may be very clear to non-GAAP, but I think that has helped provide additional transparency into the economics of gold mining. And to me, that's part of this overall, overall mission around helping build trust and confidence in the gold mining sector. And the sustainability angle is a very important part of that. It comes with understanding what these companies are doing, how they're operating, how they communicate both their impact and the economics to the people they're engaged with, so that they can do what they're about, which is making a return for shareholders, whilst at the same time benefiting all of those other stakeholders that are involved in the gold mining process.

Absolutely. And I, I love yours about the same time. It puts me a series of problems. I have 17 full of questions with what you actually brought today, right? We've got time. I've got time. So again, we have five hours of coffee chat. Parties. [Laughter] But I mean, the idea, you mentioned the importance of investors looking into it. And we do see it. I mean, the investment that we work with, they look at reputation or impact, obviously, but more than anything, they also understand that, you know, with that sustainability, without mitigation above the ground risk, it's the project do not move forward. If you can't get in social license to operate, then the capacity for an investor to have an interesting return on investment is that much, much limited. You mentioned issues of very specific areas. I think what's very important with the Responsible Gold Mining Principles is that it gives guidelines when you actually work on formalization processes, for example, with informal miners, when you try to make the separation between there's a formal industrial regulated mining with criminal organization backs, and formal miners. And I do realize there's a large gap in between, obviously. And so those are those are elements that I think if we have time, we can probably, you know, touch upon a little more. But I'm interested in the structure of the RGMPs themselves. I mean, obviously, you, you built your decision on integrating inside the RGMP, the Sustainable Development Goals. I'm coming from the UN, my pages, I was a fan of this, obviously. But what was the logic when you actually integrated those RGMPs? What was the main objective? And then potentially, how do you track it down afterwards? And it says the feasibility as an implementation of it? That's a long question. I realized.

No, no, it's not as long as my answers, ready. So, um, the background to the to the Responsible Gold Mining Principles, to some extent, it builds on some of the earlier initiatives we've done. And look, there are more things we've done in the past, but but those are probably the two most meaningful in terms of building industry-wide approaches that the entirety of the sector gets on board with and says, yep, this helps us, this is the right thing to do, it helps us to achieve good practice and to measure ourselves against others, but it also helps us as an industry to better communicate collectively what we're doing and what we're about. In September 2017, we had a board meeting, again, CEOs from our member companies, and there was a discussion around, look, we as an industry feel that we're doing a lot around sustainability. Could we be doing more? Maybe. But we're doing a lot, but we're not, not able to articulate effectively all that we're doing and to communicate what constitutes responsible gold mining. Investors come to us and say, okay, yeah, I can see the Conflict-Free Gold Standard, and that's great, but that just addresses issues around human rights and conflict. What about environmental issues? What about governance? We see things like the Cyanide Code, that's been around for a long time, and is in the gold sector, really important, given the the use of cyanide, really important in terms of managing cyanide effectively, which is a material risk and put the gold miners. But that's just one aspect. How do we, as investors and as other stakeholders, know what we should be looking for, asking, what actually defines responsible gold mining in the totality? And so what we did, and the board asked Gary Goldberg, who at the time was the CEO of Newmont, to oversee this initiative on on behalf of our board. We got together a task force of representatives from member companies, and we put out what we thought were the material issues that speak to responsible gold mining. We went out, we consulted very widely on that. So we put out an initial draft, we went and did a lot of external consultation, very grateful to everybody who participated in that. There might be some people on the call who involved in that process, had lots of bilaterals. We also were fortunate enough that a number of institutions hosted roundtable discussions for us across five continents, including organizations like the World Bank, Inter-American Development Bank, some Indian think tanks in South Africa, and some outreach in in in Asia. And went back to the drawing board there, not that through the hopper again, again, with member input and learning, did another round of a draft and consultation, and eventually, two years on, September 2019, put out this document. Now, I think that there are a few areas where we have moved the definition forward as to what constitutes responsible gold mining. And can talk about those. Artisanal and small-scale mining, and the relationship between large scale and artisanal is one area. But in large part, what we have done, and we make no bones about it, and we're very clear, is to pull out existing good practice, best practice, across all of these different standards and codes that exist, and put it in one document that is very accessible. And if anybody hasn't already gone and taken a look at this, please do, it's up on our website. That really makes it an organizing framework. And that is really what it is, it's an organizing framework, grouped under environmental, social, and governance. We actually chose, in the way we've set this up, to start with the governance, because we think if you can't get your governance right, how do you manage environmental and social? And sets out at the highest level, ten themes, ten overarching themes that speak to, in each of environmental, social, and governance, what a responsible gold mining company should do. And then under each of those, feed themes, a number of sub-themes, so that there are 51 principles in total. Again, that to us is this organizing framework that defines everything that should be considered material to running a responsible gold mining company. That was released in September 2019. Last year, we're sort of six, seven months on now, probably a little bit more, losing track. All of our members have committed to implement this. You can talk more about that process. But we really hope that this again, will become very widespread across the gold mining industry, beyond just the members of the World Gold Council.

So looking at from the perspective of mining companies and government, when they're looking at those RGMPs, I'm trying to assess the law of each one. Obviously, the mining companies to mainstream inside account that they're the operations and report it and be able to, you know, gain this label of sustainability. What would be the role from, from maybe governmental actors? I'm asking because you mentioned, you know, people may be listening. I just realized we have two ministers of Mines in your attendance right now, one from Latin America, one from Africa. Is there any interest in to, you know, RGMPs? How can we, you know, what is in terms of your conversation with key ministerial actors or key economic actors that might not be also from the mining sector, but my take could play in terms of the poor, you know, framework of mining or the regulatory framework of mining? What is, I had you work with them, and what is your views on how you can implement better those RGMPs through the mining companies?

Look, it's a great question. And thank you. And I think we have worked on and developed the RGMPs with a very wide range of stakeholders. For mining to be successful, it needs the support and engagement of of a broad group of stakeholders. And the government has to be involved. Communities, near and far from the mine sites, have to be involved. Investors. Well, I think the RGMP does. Let me just back up a moment. And I said, oh, there, we have a very firm belief at the World Gold Council, and I know this is shared by our members, that when gold mining is undertaken responsibly, it has the potential to drive significant and sustained social and economic development. And the mining industry can and should be a partner in supporting social and economic development in those communities and countries where where they operate. Now, a really important condition of that is those mines operate responsibly. And we talked a little bit about that and can talk more to that. One of the questions that always comes up is, what does that mean? And for mines and mining companies to be able to demonstrate to their local stakeholders, including governments, what they are doing, how they are putting management systems and processes in place around responsible operating. And vice versa, how governments can hold them to account. Having this organizing framework that very clearly sets out, as I said, ten overarching themes, 51 individual principles, that enables that dialogue and the conversation. I think is really meaningful. And I think government should be going to any gold producer and asking them whether they're implementing this, how they're implementing it, what it means in terms of what they're doing. And it's a great basis for a conversation where you can very clearly go, yeah, that's important, that's important, that's important, and have a structured conversation around what a mining company is doing to proactively manage these issues. It helps, I think, bridge two sometimes there, that sometimes there has been great conversations, sometimes there has been potentially being their lack of conversations, or for whatever reasons, the conversations haven't gone off as as as best as they could. This is a very simple, and we hope accessible. Now, there's a lot of detail behind all of this. So when I talk about its simplicity and accessibility, don't get me wrong, that it's kind of superficial. It's not. The Responsible Gold Mining Principles are quite accessible. They're widely available in a range of different languages. It provides a great basis for conversation. There's a lot more underpinning it in terms of the assurance process. And I should have mentioned earlier, all companies to implement the RGMPs were required to publicly disclose their conformance, to get external assurance on that. It really is designed to provide that additional confidence that it's not just a company saying, we're doing this, it's somebody's really gone and robustly checked that that is the case. And there's a good amount of underlying supporting documentation around that. But at its core, this is a pretty simple list of 51 things that any gold mining company should be doing, should be able to demonstrate how they are proactively managing that, and engage in conversations that support. They just go back to this idea of supporting responsible mining, driving sustained social and economic development. I thank you very much. We had already a question on, um, by the way, community relations. I'll address it just afterwards. I just wanted to do a follow-up first question on what you were saying from the mining company, when when talking about reporting the results. And obviously, we interact on a daily basis, you do also with mining companies, as to three people that do a lot of reporting. How do they not feel that is just another reporting on top of the ones that they were doing before? And how has it changed? And how is it different? I already have the answer, but I want to ask you first. Now, you said it was only gonna be easy questions. So here is the tough question, which is, I think a lot of things that people might want to know. If you want to gain the confidence, and if you want to make sure that, you know, the reporting is actually in line with the reality on the ground, who's a series of different perception, not only the one from the industry. What about, you know, third-party assessment? And making sure that, you know, we know a lot of indexes that are very good and say, the Responsible Mining Foundation index, but that's self-reporting. A lot of those are self-reporting. You know, we're doing on the ground, a series of our own, you know, assessments with, you know, different local universities or different. And how do we bridge that gap so that either the small pilot projects that some of people like us are doing become a little more established and can really serve as a checking balance for mining companies that do this in the best ways, in constructive ways? And how do we make sure that people are putting money into, not just say, oh, this is self-reporting. You see what do you see what saying? It's all yours. And then we go to community relations. Nick, water, just a little warning. Your head of fine. Good. Good. So, um, okay. I was being a little bit flippant before. I think it's important to have proper discussions and and hard questions and to, of course, age in those and don't get me wrong on that. And the assurance piece is really important. And the assurance piece is quite candidly what sometimes gets our members going, well, okay, there's there's a lot of work to do around that. And how do we manage that? And how do we, the my general manager is already getting overwhelmed with a number of things that they need to do. So a few thoughts on that. Firstly, I think it's really important that there is this public disclosure and you do have external assurance on it. It's so actually, I said at the beginning, I've got a couple of different roles at the World Gold Council. In addition to leading I work on membership initiatives, I'm the CFO of the organization as well. We have to go through financial reporting. We get external assurance on financial reporting. The auditors come in, they kick the tires, they ask some difficult questions, they really look to see that what we are presenting in terms of financial statements are correct and accurate and, and don't misrepresent the reality. And it's a, yeah, it's an exercise that you have to be invested in and engaged in and commit to. But in absolutely, it is important, both in giving the confidence for our board that they know what's going on inside the organization, but also we learn things through that process. And that's right. And so I think there is a recognition across the industry that what we are used to and very used to in financial reporting and assurance, or the auditing you get on our financial reporting, is going to happen around sustainability or non-financial reporting. The, there's also recognition that that can bring value, that you can learn from that, that you find opportunities for performance improvements, that you potentially identify potential challenges down the road before those of materialize. And there's a ton of value to be attached to that. And, and I think a lot of companies have seen that and understand that and, and value that. I think the really important element is to make sure that what we're not doing with the best within the world to the assurance community, it is creating work that doesn't have duplicate of work, that doesn't have any benefit and value, that the assurance companies come in and do does things that is not value-adding, they're not really looking at what's happening, and/or they're doing duplication because they're going through different approaches that are out there and providing assurance against both. So we're doing quite a lot with our members, but also the assurance community, to make sure that the assurance is robust, and at the same time, the assurance is linked into existing assurance processes, and the assurance can serve to improve performance ultimately. And then we just talked a little bit about the process we went through even before launching the Responsible Gold Mining Principles, very aware of wanting to make sure that the assurance was was value-adding to implementing companies, as well as to external stakeholders. So we worked with the assurance community, and we actually contracted with one of them to help us in developing their assurance framework, to make sure that you can actually provide assurance against these principles. That is a principles-based approach. We went with the the assurance to to mine sites. Two of our members very kindly volunteered to be pilots, and they've been public about it and talked about it as well. So Savannah Stillwater in South Africa, Cantoro Gold in the DRC. And we actually went with a team of auditors, of assurance providers, and said, here are the near finalized Responsible Gold Mining Principles. If you were here on a live assurance, could you actually assure against this? And that led to a few tweaks and changes, because it's really important. We want to know that when you invite an assurance provider to come and scrutinize you, that they can come out of that and say, yes, you do conform, or no, you don't. That really is, is important to mourn and make sure that process works. So I'm not sure that we will learn as we get more and more of the assurance undertaken, how that process works, and there may be a need to refine or improve that. I think that's true across the board in terms of sustainability assurance, and we're seeing more and more different types of sustainability reporting and assurance, and we're all learning from it. But it is a really important part of this overall approach. So maybe something that would ever lose. Yes, to the question from from Carlos Torres. Carlos Torres is one of the leading mining lawyers in Ecuador. When you talk about assurance, when you talk about, you know, be able to quantify, you know, potential impact they would have on investment capacity for mining companies to make sure that they address issues of sustainability, probably through engineering, through through environmental preservation, and others. I think the question from Carlos is interesting because naturally relates to the relationship with community. I'm just going to read this question and encourage others to to ask questions they want to, because with Terry, I can spend five hours in autopilot talking about anything in the world related to business. But here's a question from Carlos: How about what is now called the community permit, I miss the community, which by the way relates to community acceptance of the project, which has nothing or little to do with technical issues, with people's perceptions on mining projects. Sometimes it reads down on political positions. What should be implemented to this new affair? It's true, when you actually bring insurance companies, when you look at sustainability assurance, they can indeed look at, you know, the quality of tailings, they can look at, you know, the quality of processes inside the company, they can look at issues of, you know, technical and engineering matters. But when it comes to political acceptance, in the large scope, how do those RGMPs tackle this issue of political acceptance, please feel it. I died of desire to answer that question also. So please go for it first, and then I can. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So we'd love to hear your views on on that as well. And, and, and look, I think firstly, I would say that that concept, and that the recognition of having community acceptance is becoming increasingly important in the investor community. And it's becoming increasingly important because the investors realize if they want to be able to get a return on their investment, you need this, the support and engagement of communities. We've, we've all seen and no examples of of gold mines that haven't delivered their full potential because they haven't had the backing and support of of communities. And I think that is translating itself into how companies engage and act and increasingly talk to what they are doing to win over and to engage with communities. What we've included in those Responsible Gold Mining Principles is is not a sort of a tick yes or no, do you have community acceptance? What we have done is talk to them in a few different places. So the first is on the governance. We look at impact assessment and the degree to which and just recognizing the need for companies to undertake impact assessments and to understand how they are going to, how their operations and activities do and, and will impact on the communities around a mine site. And that might be local, it might be further afield. And there are good reasons why sometimes further afield communities get impacted as well, transport routes and other things. So that impact assessment, and the fact that a company is undertaking an impact assessment and has used an impact assessment to inform the way they run their business, is something that you, as an external assurance provider, can come in and look at. And then we have a whole section and that impact assessment isn't just around communities, but that's one area where where this is covered. And then there is a whole theme around communities. And actually, I talked about these 10 themes and the underlying principles. We have more underlying principles on the community than any other. So there are 10 themes, community as one of them, sits under the social, social pillar. That there are more individual principles around community, which speaks to the importance that is given to community and the recognition of the different levels or the different needs to engage. And that includes issues like community engagement, and what are the processes? And a lot of this does look at management systems and management processes that are in place, because those are observable and measurable. But it also looks at issues like gender and diversity, and what a company is doing to to engage with potentially historically underrepresented groups from the community, and make sure that they are not just going to the first person from the community that puts their hands up and says, I am the community representative, and you only need to listen to me, but the companies work a bit harder to understand different voices. Again, that is measurable. That is something that you can demonstrate what you have done. And then looking at things like, and links into environmental, and some of the harder, you talked about tailings before, what, what a company is doing around community response plans and emergency evacuation plans. And the really unfortunate events from Brumadinho and some of the learnings there around the failings around being able to alert the community in a timely basis. So there are lots of individual aspects around engaging with community and preparedness with the community. There are definitive steps that got that companies can take. Do we say, do you have the political support of the community? No, that's a very hard thing to measure, and it won't be a universal, or very rarely will there be a universal, so everybody's in exactly the same place, not least because as humans, we all have different views on different things all the time. But the steps that mining companies can take, and and the importance they place in recognizing that that engagement of the community is essential to help them give their license to operate. But Remy, that that's just sort of where I come from my perspective. You, you've spent a lot of time looking at these issues and a lot of time on on the ground, and would be great to hear your perspectives as well.

I taught about the topics for semesters and on the ground. So I might, I might have, I don't have time to put everything I want to say. But let me just address, very, very quickly, first of all, the question on perception, political perception of mining versus let's say, hard data, engineering that can be quantified. In any case, you can only answer with perception, fears, concerns, with some real scientific data. There's no other way to do something. The COVID-19 crisis teaches us, for example, that's only with clear scientific protocol they can sometimes tame the fears of people that face what they perceive as a danger or concern of world. So that, that's why I'm saying the RGMPs are still very important, addressing this, even if they actually do not address directly the issues of political acceptance of other, uh, communities. There are ways to quantify this, and I'm Terry, where I'm happy to discuss this later with you. But there are very interesting ways to quantify the acceptance of a project or not. It has to be, in any way, it has to be folded up with obviously an integration, understanding of creation of value around the territory. If any one among the attendants wants to, you know, get some more information, I would just encourage you to look at tasks in a coffee chat. We always send you the videos or put them on our LinkedIn page. But there's a lot of local content from last week that's on, you know, community perception, that's on political risk, that's on criminal organization and impact on communities. So there's a lot of data that can be here. But what was interesting is, you know, if you compliment those RGMPs that say, with for example, we developed a toolkit of relationship with communities together with the Canadian government and a former president of PDAC. So there's there's ways of addressing communities, of understanding how to build trust and so on. They root there indeed be a risk if the company believes that just with the RGMP, with that engaging more on a qualitative social level, communities, when we solve everything, obviously. And I'm sure you know, Terry, agrees with me that, you know, it's not by just saying, look, I got the LP MP label, I don't have to interact with the community that, you know, solve the issue. Everybody understands that. Investors understand that also. They know of the reason can have within criminal organization may be a very negative impact or delay on the license to operate of a project for environmental concerns, all this. So obviously, yes, the RGMPs need to be also, you know, you know, complemented with an on-the-ground daily interaction with community, which is harder right now with with COVID, obviously. But can be supplemented also with third parties. And I don't want to preach for our own, you know, work, but there's, there's a lot. We're happy to share this information of ways that this can be done. Okay. But yes, the issue of RGMP does provide this framework based on Sustainable Development Goals of the United Nations. Therefore, one day, you know, accepted, but also opposition forces to the mining industry to try to find a common way, in a common ground of moving forward for the creation of value, the creation of values for the territories. And, and there are ways where I'm happy to continue that. So surely plenty of conversation in the future with with Terry on this. I think the elements of a third-party assessment should maybe go a little further in terms of acceptance with communities. I'm thinking about, you know, what Carlos is probably talking about, because we work with acquiring their boutique and I, all the the induced communities against mining and try to understand their concerns. So there needs to be probably an extra step. But that is a very good first step already from there from cancer and provide the basis for, you know, a successful progress for mining companies. And I know, accept. And I just let me build on on that a little bit and talk to some specific areas. I mean, free, prior, and informed consent is clearly a particular topic of issue is engagement with communities. And it's only one issue. We explicitly talked about the need for free, prior, and informed consent within within the RGMPs. So I agree with you. I think that the RGMPs set the bar high. What we've also tried to do with them, though, is set this as a universal level for every gold mining company needs to be operating at that level. Some companies will need to and decide it's appropriate to go in deeper in specific areas because those are the issues that are most material to them. Others will have other topics. And one of the questions that I often get asked is, where will gold mining companies find it most difficult to comply with the RGMPs? And the answer is the classic, it depends. It really does depend on your individual circumstances. And for some, community will be top of the top of the list, and, and what they need to do to to gain that political acceptance and, and demonstrate how they are engaging in a meaningful way. For others, it will be other other topics. And, and it would be disingenuous to say every gold mining company has the same set of of issues. That's not the case.

Now, you make me smile because I always started my university classes, the first of the first class, when you say hi to everyone the same way. People were scared in my classes. There was a look of engineering, a lot of the economics, you know, some numbers. I said, don't worry, if my class is very easy, I'm gonna give you the question to every single answer. To be some question I'm gonna be asking even at the exam. I said, yes, the answer is, it depends. But not good luck to know. It depends on what. And explain me what. I'm obviously you can't replicate the the the guidelines. It's always a question of be able to implement it, understand the specific concept and the context. That would demand a certain type of implementation, a certain timeline, the certainly focus to specific stakeholders. I'm happy to to help anyone who wants to implement and those guidelines. But that's obviously the key to the success of it. But without those guys, you know, you can't have the strong, you know, perceptive base on the United Nations Sustainable Development Goals, backed by the industry. So that's one side of the equation. Let's be honest, Terry, but also in understood, understood by different groups. And we probably, you have been reaching out to different people that are not interesting, you know, not really supporting for the mining industries, that they can discuss this. We're probably gonna have no further coffee chat. But that's by having this kind of roadmap in the middle for the conversation that people move forward. I'm gonna ask you one question, Terry, because we've got two questions that are very, very similar. One of them was was very positive and just, you know, someone I realized, you Tim Valentine, actually, I know Jim, so absent CEO of two gold producers. I can say that we're very lucky to have Terry to talk to us. The World Gold Council has a manual on responsible gold mining. That's the positive. And then one that was just sent to me that was asking, but

Do all the companies really have to, you know, they're obligated as a term to your dear to the are GMP that areas referred to? So let me just, before you answer, don't be, don't be shy, don't be afraid. I mean, Terry, even if I'm French and he's in London, Siamese, I'm the historical nemesis of the country. He actually answers all my questions. So go for it. That's absolutely fine.

There is absolutely, I mean, so firstly, thank you. And and I really hope that the response, "Gold Mining Principles," and indeed the rest of the work we do, the World Gold Council can help the entirety of the gold industry understand the contribution that this sector makes and think about how to continue to raise practices. And I say "continue" because there is so much work, good work, that happens that sometimes we, as a sector, don't always talk about enough. And it's not to say that there aren't issues and challenges. Of course, there are, and we've got to find the right way to address both.

We've had lots of conversations with our board, again, CEOs of our member companies, and it's been complete agreement that conformance with the Responsible Gold Mining Principles is a condition of membership for the World Gold Council. It is as simple as that. There is a commitment from the industry, from our members, to support and and to really demonstrate their commitment to responsible mining. And I think that a lot of that comes from, if you like, historically, the sense of, "Okay, we are, with varying degrees of, if you like, intensity, been working on different topics within that overall ESG." If you speak to any mining company, they will tell you that they have been thinking about, any decent mining company, health and safety has been ingrained into the way you think about things for 20 odd years, probably more than that. Environmental responsibility has also had a similarly long tenure. And some areas are getting more importance now, and I think it would be fair to say, probably areas around gender and diversity haven't always been as deeply rooted in in coal mining companies, but are increasingly coming to the fore. So part of this is around the industry saying, "Look, this isn't, we've just, this isn't news. It's not like we've just woken up and embraced the ESG revolution. These are things that we have been working on progressively." And we, as an industry, want to make it very clear that we are committed to responsible mining, period. And that is why conformance with the RGMPs is a membership condition.

At the same time, it does say that there is a recognition that there are areas that need improvement, and that we've, I think, been quite stretching in what we've set out and what the industry needs to do. So there's actually a three-year implementation timeline from the launch in September 2019 to full conformance and for the implementation with external assurance. And so until we get to that point, they'll wait and see what happens. But very clearly, and and this isn't just, these were not lightly undertaken that those decisions by our board, that this should be a membership requirement. It is going to be a fair amount of work, fair amount of money spent, both internally and with external assurance providers. But I've spoken with a lot of our member companies, and they're really proud of what they're doing. And you're seeing that in some of the reporting that's coming out now on sustainability reporting, where companies are talking about their commitment to the RGMPs, even linking it to executive compensation.

I mean, what one comment, and first of all, the element of executive compensation is is essential. You just open a gate for another hour of conversation. Come back to it. But the question that I had and the comment that I wanted to make, and you mentioned something that is very important, which is the mining industry is very segmented. Segmented in the sense of people that usually work for the mining industry are mainly geologists, mining engineers. It's not such that there is a diverse population, but it's really much more people that are rooting into the hardcore science or geology and other elements. And when it comes to talking with communities, when I talk to social, political, sometimes other political elements, it's very far away from from their sphere of comfort. And I feel that initially, the mining industry has gone through the classic, no, erm, or the kind of companies that would kind of be able to really do your due diligence or analysis of, no, environmental consequences and impact, and sometimes just use the same people to be able to talk about social, political aspects, you know, do a few pages on communities and so on. But it's really completely different. Like I can't tell you anything about water management. I can tell you water is water, that's all I can tell you. But I can really tell you about, you know, socio-economics and relationship between communities and others. And when I talk to my, you know, my colleagues from more the environmental engineering side, they admit that this is really two things completely different. And we, and I think those RGMP principles are starting to really move, you know, together into that movement of understanding that there needs to be really specialization. Because if that is not taken seriously as 'm as a as a topic by itself, with the real experts on that topic, then we're going to continue seeing what we've been saying for the last decade or so, which is probably around 200, you know, projects that are not in Latin America, a little less in Africa, on different levels of development. But that's the key limitation to to the sector.

I'd like to ask you one thing, and we have this question a couple of times. You mentioned that different mining companies were engaging differently with those RGMPs. So if I'm going to ask you names of who are the best mining companies and others, if you want to share them, I'm okay. But there was there was a question also from Vera Tostado from the Canadian Embassy in Mexico City, especially for junior miners and junior companies. Do they actually fit also into this process? And do they face different challenges that big companies? Obviously, that they do. But what, what can you tell to anyone from the community embassy in Mexico City that engages with junior miners in the gold sector, or they can actually mainstream those RGMPs inside their operations also?

Sure. So really important, and really important for us. And thank you, Remi, for giving me the opportunity to talk about this, because anybody, we want to see adoption across the entirety of the gold mining sector. And our members, before I'm very conscious, our members tend to be the larger, we have some smaller producers as well, but they tend to be the larger, well-established, well-capitalized businesses that put and have historically put a lot of effort and resource behind sustainability. What I would say is that the RGMPs are principle-oriented. That as such, they should be able to apply to all different types of gold mining, this large-scale. They're not really intended for artisanal. And I think I'd build on your point just now of the recognition, and this has been there for a while, and I think it's just been more formalized in kind of that to make a successful operation needs not just addressing the technical risks, but the non-technical risks as well, the, the social and the sustainability risks. And that particularly for juniors that are thinking about what one day, how they, their exit, or what that might look like, there is increasing, as you know, due diligence from any larger mining company thinking about acquiring a potential junior or development project, around how that company has managed its sustainability footprint. And that speaks right to the, the anthropologists. And I mean, I've had lots of conversations with with mining companies that say, "Look, we've got it all wrong. We said we send in the geologists first. Actually, we should send in the anthropologist first." Because that, it's right at the beginning that you start to set expectations. Now, I, I would again encourage every company to take a look at this and figure out how this applies to them. It's not, we've deliberately done this in a principles-based way. It's not rules-based. It's not saying this is exactly what needs to happen. And think about how you apply this. I think it's that the driver is, yes, doing the right thing for your the communities and employees that you're engaged with, but also accessing capital over the long term. I have no doubt that the more you're able to demonstrate how you are conforming with the Responsible Gold Mining Principles, that is going to open access to to capital.

And then we just touch on the first part of your question, these different companies looking at this in different ways. What I mean by that is is twofold. One, it is principles, and different companies do just think about principles in in different ways. You can still have assurance on it, but it's a set of principles. The second is so much of what our company does, sort of implements and operationalizes the RGMPs will depend on what they have done to date. And different companies have just gone about that in different ways. So some people have dedicated sustainability teams that manage the whole process. Some people pull people in from different departments. Some companies are already following, I mean, every company is following sustainability practices to some extent. That's building off that the laws and regulations that are already in place. There may be following some schemes. For example, if you've got financing from the IFC, you'll be following the IFC Performance Standards. If you're an ICMM member, you'll be following the ICMM's performance expectations. If you're a member of the Mining Association of Canada, you'll be following Towards Sustainable Mining. You might be a member of none of those and doing different things. Every company starts from a different perspective and what their existing practices look like. And we are not saying you will need to implement this in exactly the same way. You need to pull this person out or give this title. Or there is flexibility, and there should be flexibility. But ultimately, there is a set of principles that we believe can apply to every gold mining company operating globally. And that kind of development process we've gone through, we think, and with our feedback, but we think we've got a good product that can work for all types of gold mining companies.

Wonderful. I'm arriving to the, you know, difficult moment where I have four very interesting questions. We just have five minutes. So let me just try to address two of those questions quickly and then ask you the two rapid-fire. Let's go. Okay. So what does the World Gold Council oops, what small minor that in that was mentioned? It's not really focused on that. It's all miners. It's much more for larger mining companies. However, on our experience working with mining companies in their formalization processes, it is very important for, you know, that the mining companies shows a series of guidelines and then we can apply to that. So miners part of the trust relationship is a way to show that it's not only for as low to the mine, the large mining company does it also. So it's also very interesting for miners that could be then adapted and probably could help you at RGM. I'm trying to see and with some of our partners, I'm thinking of Pact. I see they were connected also and trying to do something for us. My second question, so I'm just jumping on this. We looked at. Let me ask you a question. You turn RGMP is applied to mining operations that are not only gold. Under normal asking the question is one of the great copper experts in in Chile. So assume is talking about operations whether Chile copper was one of the materials, minerals, and in gold was there. Who they also applied to companies that actually work on pouring metallic operations? So with first four, they on on ASM, hugely important topic for this industry and area. We're paying attention to an area where we're engaged in some of the global policymaking dialogue around ASM. I mentioned the OECD earlier. You might have seen they put out a call to action from the multi-stakeholder group around ASM. We're part of that group and other initiatives like that. Also, in the Responsible Gold Mining Principles, as you noted earlier, there is a principle in there around large-scale miners helping to formalize access to market, call responsible ASM. And that's, as far as I'm aware, is the first time that anybody has actually set out in in writing that needs to be followed a process for engagement around ASM. That clearly needs to be done in the right way, and that's really important. And there are lots of complexities about that. You know that better than I do. But it is in there, and it is part of these principles around that engagement with responsible ASM. Yeah, it is fundamental. If you guys are looking for best practices, just Google AMIS, many Latin American mining risk. There's a white paper with a specific part on ASM formalizing. So you have plenty of information there.

Quick question from Nora Farini, and then there's a second question afterwards. How does your practice book compare with the responsible mining assurance standard? Do they overlap? Are both coined in some way? I know you mentioned other nexus at the very beginning of the other of this coffee chat, but can you address specifically the response? Yeah, and this and this answers the copper question as well. So we have designed our principles to be focused on gold. That being said, I would say that somewhere in the region of 90 to 95 percent applies across all different minerals. But we wanted to do something, we are the World Gold Council, we wanted to do something that that is focused on gold. I was on a panel at PDAC in February, just really briefly, where we talked about overtime. I would love to see there being convergence across these different standards and that it's this sort of alphabet soup of different industry initiatives is simplified. And we're actively participating in some of those conversations. And I know most of the co-panelists with you at this PDAC, and there was a great panel.

We haven't talked about it, but I heard from other others. The last question, which is probably the most important one. So you have less than a second or a minute to answer it. Where is the role of stakeholder, different stakeholders and investors in implementing or those RGMPs? And we worked specifically with regional stakeholders, sometimes not from the mining sphere, to try to create some alliances and build a balance of power in favor of mining companies that are facing strong in strong position and thinking about projects in Colombia, Peru, I mean, everywhere in the world, specific projects. But how can those RGMPs serve other stakeholders and and investors? Where is their role in trying to make sure that they are implemented?

I'd go back to where I started. This is really designed to support sustained social and economic development wherever gold mining occurs. All stakeholders who are involved should be raising the RGMPs with any gold producer, with any junior looking at gold mining, and go, "Look, this is best practice for responsible gold mining. Are you following it? Talk to me about how you are following it, or if you're not, why not?" And it's going to present you more challenges if you're not following it than if you are. Be part of that engagement approach to help support responsible gold mining because that really does have the potential to bring benefits to everybody.

Great guys. This is Noon and in New York, Miami, Toronto. It's 5:00 p.m. in in in London. So we're gonna leave Harry. Thank you for for your time. I'm gonna let you go to doing, you know, closest pub or whatever you do in this environment. We're not there yet. I'm gonna get there to you. Remind everybody, stay safe and look after yourselves. Very unusual times and big lot to learn about how to manage community safety effectively and fairly. Early on the quarter to manage yourselves effectively as well. Exactly. And please guys, send any question you might have. My email is easily available. You can find it. Just send questions. I'm happy to follow up with, you know, future coffee chats. This video will be uploaded, as always, and sent to you. Anyone who requests this. We're here to share best practices and whatever we can do to all the community and and value creation and sustainable mining practices. That's our role. So please let us know. Terry, so pleasure as always. Looking forward to. Thanks everybody. First selling him.

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