Tshwane police chief testifies at Madlanga Commission

Under E, I will touch on TMPD 012024 stroke 2025 land invas and then I will start with my concluding remarks.

A introduction. I, the undersigned Yolander Katherine Renee Faru, do hereby make oath and say that I am an adult female residing in Pritoria. My place of work is the Chwani Metrop Police Department headquarters, and that is in Pritoria West, having assumed the role of the commissioner of Chwani Metrop Police on the 1st of October 2023.

Save where otherwise stated or where it appears from the context to the contrary, the facts contained herein are within my personal knowledge and are to the best of my knowledge and belief both true and correct, and I do swear positively thereto. In respect of my time before my appointment, I rely mostly on documents which I have access to by virtue of my position and which are under my control. Over the course of my position, I have consulted officials under me to obtain more information and context in relation to certain matters particularly set out below, where I make reference to the regulatory framework that is based on my interpretation and how such has been applied. I do not understand that the statement requires me to make legal submissions and accordingly refrain from doing so.

I depose to the statement to assist the judicial commission of inquiry into criminality, political interference and corruption in the criminal justice system arising from the specific allegation made public by Lieutenant General Guanazi on 6th July 2025. I do not intend to be verbose in the statement and will try to deal with specific areas of concern relevant to the terms of reference of the commission.

Recently, I have observed certain things within the Chwani Metrop Police Department, also TMPD, which has led me to take certain corrective steps, and where necessary, consequence management is in progress. However, over the past weeks, I have come to learn with great shock and dismay on what was apparently taking place in the TMPD, whether it was, uh, before my tenure or whether it was now in this time. It is not, it would seem, issues of irregularities, but clear systems of siphoning of money and criminal activities.

"Before, sorry, Commissioner, um, I'm just thinking, you, you are saying, uh, the siphoning of money, uh, both before and during your, your tenure, are matters that you, or rather, is a matter you became aware of now, now recently. Um, what do you think a commissioner needs to do to be aware of such a phenomenon, um, as and when it arises?"

"Chairperson, well, I'm just thinking, if there was no Malanga Commission, when would you have become aware of this phenomenon?"

"Chairperson, I will indicate in terms of the stopping at the ad hoc and I will explain when it will be, it will make sense and the picture will get clearer. In terms of the, I was appointed as the commissioner of Chwani Metrop Police Department, and the matter that we are referring to, it, uh, mostly is, uh, the APSS. So I will definitely, I will delve into that and I will also, um, recommendations and then also corrective measures and also moving forward, I will definitely, it will be part of my statement and I will go into detail in that regard."

"Let's leave it for that."

"Thank you. Thank you."

"Maybe just to follow up from what the chairperson is saying. Um, would I be correct to say that you, as, as the chairperson, may well be saying is that you've been following the commission and the testimonies of witnesses?"

"When I had time, I did follow the, the commission. I have a little bit of insomnia, so yes, I did, but not all the time. But, um, obviously, when it became alarming to me was 18 March, at the end of the commission, and then 19 March, and then I will also then say what action I took immediately, 20 March. So, yes, um, mostly was for me concerning, although it isn't concerning when it comes to, uh, any law enforcement department, because you do look into it and then see if those things are happening in your department. So you don't just look into, look at a commission where other matters were highlighted and you think, it's as long as they don't mention my department, it's not in my department. You do need to go and go see what is happening in your department. So, in terms of that, yes, we, I did follow the commission."

"Thank you. Please continue."

The structure of the statement is as follows. First, I deal with my appointment, that will be 8.1. 8.2, second, I deal at a high level with the procurement prescripts and my understanding. 8.3, third, I will deal with TMPD 02 2016 stroke 2017, which is the controversial tender for physical guarding of the city of Chwani assets. 8.4, fourth, I deal with TMPD1 2024 2025, which relates to the prevention of unlawful occupation and illegal occupiers of the city's assets. May note the name of that tender is land invasion. 8.5, fifth and last, I would then like the commission to allow me to make some concluding remarks.

And then nine, I want to again just put it on the record. I will assist the commission as best as I can, including elaborating beyond the statement as may be required, and also if I have the information with me, but also if I don't have it, I will also submit if I have to. So let me start with my background and appointment.

I'm currently, as I said, employed as a Chief of Police for the Chuani Metropolitan Police Department from the 1st of October 2023. I started my law enforcement career in Cape Town in 1998. I was employed by the City of Cape Town Traffic Services, and I was working my way up until I was a Deputy Commissioner. From Deputy Commissioner, I was acting as the Chief of Police from February 2016 until I left the employee of the City of Cape Town to start up, operationalize the Nelson Mandela Bay Metrop Police Department. They were established, but they were not operationalized yet. So, I, during that time when I was in Nelson Mandela Bay, coming from Cape Town going to Nelson Mandela Bay, it was quite a rude awakening. When I came to Nelson Mandela Bay, um, in terms of the staff, in terms of resources, in terms of putting systems in place, etc. I was there until I had a five-year contract, and I was there until my contract obviously ran out. Then I applied by the City of Chuani when I saw the position in the newspaper for the Chief of Police position at the Chuani Metro Police Department. I was successful, and I started there, first, as I said, 1st of October 2023.

My qualifications include a National Diploma in Policing and also a BTech degree in Policing, both from UNISA. I have a Traffic Diploma Kumlaudi that I obtained at Gene Low Traffic College in Brackenfell in Cape Town. And then I also did my Municipal Police qualifications at the Philippi SAPS Philippi College, also in Cape Town.

Currently, Commissioners, I'm the only female Metrop Police Commissioner in the country, and also the national chairperson of the Metrop Police Commissioners Forum, which is convened on a quarterly basis around the country where Metrop Police Departments are established. And I was also appointed as the Province Community Safety Champion of Integration. I'm in possession of my security clearance certificate, which is on the level of top secret. It was renewed on the 3rd of December 2025, and it will be valid till the 31st of December 2030.

I will now move over to my role at the TMPD. TMPD was established in April.

"Sorry, Commissioner, just to check, uh, mathematically, would you say that's over 15 years or so experience in the municipal policing environment?"

"It's actually more."

"More. Okay, thank you."

My role at the TMPD was established. The TMPD was established in April 2002 in terms of section 64A of the South African Police Service Act, number 68 of 1995, as amended. Like other metro municipal police services, the TMPD's functions include traffic policing, bylaw enforcement, and crime prevention. I'm appointed as the executive head of the TMPD as per section 64C of the act, and in my role as such, I am the Chief of Police for the TMPD. I exercise control over the entire TMPD and I'm accountable to the Chief Executive Officer or the City Manager as per section 64B of the act. I'm an employee and official within the City of Chwani Municipality Directorate Community Safety. My rank and my designation is that of a Commissioner.

"Commissioner, before, sorry, before you proceed, in, in practical terms, what does it mean that you are accountable to the City Manager? In, in practical terms, what does that mean?"

"Uh, thank you, Commissioner. That, that is in terms of the SAPS Act. The City Manager will be my administrative head. I, I asked the question because we've, we've had, uh, a debate, if you like, um, in respect of Egeni, where there were issues about the power to appoint, uh, and the delegation of powers being removed and moved around, the instance of the City Manager, and it turned on what does it mean that, uh, the Chief of Police is accountable to the, to the City Manager. Does it mean the City Manager can, for example, um, step in and make appointments where the act says you're responsible for making appointments as Chief of Police, but the City Manager is accounting officer, um, and therefore the bearer ultimately of, of authority as CEO of the institution, can she step in and make appointments that the act says you're responsible for? So, when I say practically, what does it mean? I'm trying to resolve that question."

"Uh, thank you, Commissioner. Although I'm the only one that's accountable to the City Manager, the City Manager cannot step in and start appointing, um, my subordinates. I am the, if you, if you look at the act, if I'm coming to that, is that, um, by my functions is the next that I under 64 C 2A 2H is my functions under the act, and it clearly says that I'm responsible for recruitment, appointment, promotion, and the transfer of members of the municipal police service. It's straight out of the act, Commissioner. So, the City Manager is responsible for my appointment, and then my appointment must be endorsed, endorsed by the council, City Council. So, you take it to council, and then they will endorse my appointment. So, no, he cannot. The act is very, very clear. I'm responsible for recruitment, appointment, promotion, and the transfer of members of the TMP."

"Thank you."

"Thank you, Commissioner. My role and functions are set out in section 64 C 2 A2H. And I'm just going to briefly, I'm not going to put everything down, which I think is important, uh, for the commission. I must maintain an impartial, accountable, transparent, and efficient municipal police service. Number two, uh, I already, but I will reiterate, I'm responsible for the recruitment, appointment, promotion, and the transfer of members of the municipal police service. Number three, I'm responsible for managing discipline of the municipal police service. And then number four is just in terms of the, uh, the annual policing plan that I must make sure that that plan, who sets out the priorities and objectives of the TMPD for the following financial year, provided that that plan, in so far as it relates to prevention of crime, shall be developed in cooperation with SAPS. So, that plan we do every year. Each and every commission on their own, but you must do it in hand in hand with a provincial commissioner wherever you are deployed, and the provincial commissioner will sign off your annual police plan. Then in terms of 16.5, perform such duties as may from time to time be imposed by the Chief Executive Officer, City Manager, or a municipality, City Manager of the municipality. So, that means that the City Manager can request, um, or impose certain duties, and I'm the only one, as you can see, Commissioner, 16.5 is not saying enter the Metrop Police Officers, it's only myself when it comes to the City Manager. Then in terms of 17, over and above the four responsibilities are set out in my employment contract and relevant instrument, which the applicable regulations and performance standards and plans, meaning that I sign a performance agreement, and there is certain, um, um, performance, um, targets that I must meet. I must also, that is also hand in hand with the IDP of your municipality, the SDF, and, um, you must make sure that you perform, uh, accordingly. Then in terms of 17, over and above the four step, my responsibility, I set out, I think I'm just, I've mentioned that one."

"Sorry, Commissioner, maybe before you go further, I just wanted to highlight, would part of those instruments include the MFMA, the Municipal Finance Management Act?"

"Yes. Yes. It was also the Municipal Finance Management Act. Operational budget as well as capital budget."

"Thank you."

"Then in terms of 18, consequently, I have ultimate, ultimate responsibility for all the operations of the TMPD as prescribed by the act. In executing of my duties, I am assisted by four appointed Deputy Commissioners, and I've got one vacant acting Deputy Commissioner post. If, uh, the Commissioners will just allow me, I just want to, uh, elaborate a little bit when it comes to that in terms of the responsibilities of the Deputy Commissioners that was appointed. I've got Deputy Commissioner Nomsa Schlapo. She's responsible for Regional Policing. Now, Regional Policing in the City of Chuani, uh, I've got seven regions in the City of Chuani, of which Region One is my Soshanguve, Mabopane, Rosslyn, and Ga-Rankuwa, that is Region One. Region Two, in terms of the City of Chuani, is Hammanskraal, Wonderboom, Soshanguve, Temba, etc. Region Three is where we are, CBD, Sunnyside, Hatfield, Arcadia, Atteridgeville. Then Region Four, Centurion, Oliven, that is my Region Four, and all the others that goes with it. Region Five and Seven is together because it's, um, if you look at Kalin, it's five, and then we just put it together with, um, Bronkhorstspruit. And then Number Six is Mamelodi, and those are the regions that Deputy Commissioner Nomsa is responsible for. She's got 36 regional officers, same like the police stations we have in the City of Chuani. She must make sure that she's got the deployment where the community are. So, the, we make sure that you in the region and not deployed maybe from the, the headquarters in Pretoria West. In terms of Region Three, Pretoria West is also part of, um, Region Three. Then in terms of Deputy Commissioner SA Bles, he will also come before this committee because he was the caretaker from 1st of July 2024 until February 28th of February 2025 of the APSS. So, Deputy Commissioner SA Bles is responsible for training and innovation, and he is also standing in as being my Staff Officer. Training and innovation is not only for when we have basic intake. It's also to make sure the skills of the Metrop Police are sharpened, and we make sure that they are aware of if there's any regulation that changed or any act, and then refresher training, firearm shooting training, all of that to make sure that the officer can do his or her work outside. In terms of the Deputy Commissioner Umarasid Lamini, his responsibilities is administration and support, of which finance, HR related matters, as well as internal affairs. Then there's Deputy Commissioner Reo Spiss. I'm sure everybody knows Reo Spiss by now."

"18.3 Deputy Commissioner Umarasid Lamini. Does procurement fall under any of, uh, the what you have itemized?"

"So, say again, Commissioner."

"Does procurement fall under any of the matters that you've itemized, in terms of, uh, Deputy Commissioner Masid Lamini?"

"Yes."

"Yes. Deputy Commissioner, uh, um, Umarasid Lamini is responsible for all administration and support, even if it comes to ARTO, if it comes to, um, uniform, um, if it comes to supply chain management. So, anything other than the operational field."

"All right."

"And APSS, he is responsible for."

"Yeah, you are probably aware why I'm asking that question. I'm asking that question because evidence of the exchange of emails between Deputy Commissioner Lamini and the CFO, Mr. Nissi, has been led before this commission, and that evidence related to procurement. So, that's why I'm asking the question that I've just asked."

"Yes, he's also responsible for procurement. It also falls under him."

"Thank you."

"But I'm sure, Commissioner, when we come to that, uh, we will zoom in and then I can actually put it in context."

"All right. All right."

"In terms of, um,"

"Thank you. Where he was responsible, and then if that also is part of his duties. So,"

"Thank you."

"I will assist the commission in that regard."

"Thank you."

"In terms of Deputy Commissioner Evo Spiss, he is responsible for the Asset Protection and Security Services Department within the Chuani Metrop Police Department. So, if I say it's responsible for asset protection and security services, I refer to the assets of the municipality, whether the reservoirs, whether it is the, um, substations, whether it is the libraries, whether it is any building of the municipality. He must make sure that there is no vandalism, no theft, no break-ins, and he must work hand in hand with the COO, which is the custodian of those assets. He's also, um, responsible for the, the personnel to make sure they are safe where they are. Is that his function? In terms of 8.5, Deputy Commissioner position for specialized policing is currently vacant. However, I've got an acting Deputy Commissioner there, Simon Machuani. Now, the specialized services is all the units within the Chuani Metrop Police Department. Whether it's the freeway, whether it is the social crime prevention, whether it is, um, cable theft, whether it is, um, the ones that is dealing with, um, the drug-related matters, all those units is under the Deputy Commissioner of Specialized Services."

"And there are overlaps between that and, uh, 18.1, Deputy Commissioner responsible for Regional Policing. The Deputy responsible for Regional Policing is performing the three functions. She must make sure within a region she's doing the traffic enforcement, the bylaw enforcement, and the crime prevention. However, when something is complex, we send the units in, if, because if you, if you're only going to, we work shifts, so if I'm going to deal with a complaint and I'm on arrest, and I'm on night shift, then that complaint never gets dealt with. But if I give, for example, a bylaw complaint where you need to issue a fine, you need to follow up after 7 days, you need to make sure you then, because otherwise, if you don't have that unit, sometimes the staff is not, I'm on arrest day, I don't hand over, the next one is giving a fine again, and that complaint gets never ever solved. They specialize in, in, in whatever complaints that we're dealing with, and they also make sure that, um, whatever the complaint, if it's a long-term complaint, it runs its conclusion."

"Thank you."

"So, they, they, you are correct, they do overlap. I do encourage if they sit and plan that if you have a drug problem in your region, and you must make sure that you sit with your counterpart, whether it's the drug unit, whether it is the unit that, uh, uh, also assist with the drug-related, if it's at schools that you want maybe talks, you get social crime prevention in, that is a unit. So, all that is, we encourage to do that, because they won't be able to do all of those on their own."

"Thank you, Commissioner."

"Sorry, Commissioner. Thank you. Just, uh, to interrupt you before you go to paragraph 19. Can I just ask you a few questions around your Deputy Commissioners? Miss Yumay."

"If all of them, that's Nomsa, Sean, Bumashi, and Rivers, and the acting, how long have they, have they been with the TMPD individually?"

"The, I, I appointed two, three deputies in my, since 1st of October 2023 to date."

"Yes."

"I appointed three of the deputies, uh, I appointed, um, um, Deputy Commissioner Nomsa and Schlapo, 1st of June 2024, together with Deputy Commissioner SA Bles. They were appointed the same date. In terms of, uh, Deputy Commissioner Evo Spiss, I appointed him 1st of March 2025. Then in terms of, uh, Deputy Commissioner Umazi Lamini, when I came, he was already at the TMPD, uh, Metrop Police Department. And then in terms of, um, the acting Deputy Commissioner Simon Machuani, I've appointed him to act in that position until I'm going to fill that position."

"And how long was Omar Zamini? How long has he been? I think very, very long since the inception of the TMP."

"Okay."

"He's been a, a Deputy Commissioner for a very, very long time. He's been Staff Officer with then, uh, uh, Chief, the late Chief, and then he was with Deputy, he was with Commissioner, um, Johann. Um, so he is really for a very, very, very long time in the Metro Police Department."

"Okay. Okay."

"He's the longest serving Deputy Commissioner."

"Longest serving. Okay. And then in terms of Mr. Speaker, um, we understand that he had retired. Um, can you just explain how he got back to your, to your unit?"

"He applied. The post was advertised."

"Okay."

"And, um, uh, he was the most, uh, competent person in the interview. He was exemplary in the interview."

"Okay."

"So, um, he was the best candidate."

"Was the best candidate."

"Definitely the best candidate. That's why he was appointed."

"Thank you."

"Just before you leave the issue of the deputies. Uh, good morning, Commissioner Faru."

"Good morning, Commissioner Kumaru. Uh, in what I have renumbered 13.1, you say you are in possession of security clearance, and you say it's a top-level, uh, clearance. It's on page five of your statement. So, I wanted to ask you, do your deputies also have in their possession the security clearance?"

"Commissioner, I'm going to be very honest with, not all of the deputies have got, um, um, the clearance, SSA clearance."

"Why is that? Is it a requirement or is it not a requirement?"

"As I said, when I, uh, um, it, it is a teething process to, to get your clearance. Um, that is why I'm, I'm doing my clearance through SSA. It is a very long process also, uh, to do it. However, the dep, the Commissioners of the, of the Metrop Police, the deputies of, of the Metrop Police, the brigadiers of the Metrop Police, they should all have this clearance. I know some of the deputies don't have, uh, um, um, it was brought under my attention. Some were supposed to go and did not, or one was supposed to go and did not go. I, I know of that. In terms of the others, I, I know that they do have, and then maybe theirs must just be renewed. But if, if they are your subordinates, is it not your responsibility to ensure that they have security clearance? Because in the earlier paragraphs, I think it's paragraph 7, you, you raised an issue about criminality, and you say it shocked and dismayed you because the issues that have come out of this commission, according to you, amount to siphoning of money and criminal activities. And one of the people against whom these accusations are leveled is a deputy, uh, within the TMPD. So, why has he not been subjected to a form of vetting or security clearance?"

"Commissioner, um, that is one of the things that we will have to sharpen up. I think, uh, we must be honest when we come to this commission. Maybe we have taken it for granted. This is one of the things that must be compulsory. If, if when I applied by the City of Chuani, it was compulsory. It was one of it, but was in the advertisement or one of the requirements that said that you must be security cleared. So, I think it's important that, uh, uh, this is one of the things that we, we will have to sharpen on, and then it should be from the start."

"Commissioner, can, can you please flag that it, it really should not wait for recommendations from this commission? You are responsible for appointment of deputies. So, you should look into that. You don't have to wait for a report from this commission. And then on the issue of the members of the TMPD, I'm not talking about the deputies now. I'm talking about the entire force. Can you just give us a number, more or less? How many are the TMPD?"

"How many do I have? I will give you also, um, I went to go, I knew you were going to ask that question. So, I went to go, I went to go make sure that I have the totals. Um, I've got 3,626 Chuani Metrop Police Department officers. But I made sure, uh, because remember, Commissioner, some retire, some, uh, you know, um, are not with us anymore, some resign. So, I wanted the current total. So, the current total is 3,626. And then I've got, um, administrative staff, that's 245. And then I've got APSS as 1,271. Yes."

"And can you tell us if they have been subjected to vetting or if it is a requirement within TMPD that your 3,626 officers should be vetted?"

"Yes, Commissioner. We do that on an annual basis because we, we make sure that we do that. Um, because you can't get your firearm license renewed. We do not want to give somebody a firearm that's got a section on 10 or two or section 10 or three against them. So, we make sure that the fingerprints are taken. I've got a division that only does that, and we make sure that we, we, we, we, uh, test you and make sure that you are vetted. So, yes, Commissioner, that, that is being done. I can promise you that. And we've picked up quite a lot of things because if you obtain, um, or are arrested when you maybe are on leave, or you will not pick it up. If it is that is maybe in uniform, it's easier. So, that is a mechanism for us as well in, in Chuani, that, um, we pick that up. Um, so I can guarantee you that, yes, we are very strict when it comes to that."

"I think you'll agree with me that we don't want criminals within the force. Commissioner, one thing that I hate is a criminal in uniform."

"Yes."

"And then the last one, sorry, I have to go back to the issue of, um, security clearance, and I don't want you to reveal state secrets here. Maybe let's just keep it to what the terms of reference of this commission are, and maybe the allegations against, uh, Deputy Commissioner Lamini. What does it entail? If somebody has to undergo this process and they get a security clearance, what is it that SSA is looking for? And please don't disclose their security, and don't disclose how they go about the process. I'm just looking at what are they looking for to ensure that the wrong people do not get appointed to the senior positions."

"Commissioner, I will just be very umbrella because I just received my top secret, meaning I must make sure that I keep that top secret and I'm not arrested. So, um, Commissioner, obviously they look at your financials, they also look at your associates, um, they look at quite a few things. Um, I think it is a very, very good, you go with this top secret, you go for, um, polygraph as well, you are subjected to a polygraph, they interview also, um, um, people, uh, that you previously worked with, obviously family members, etc., etc., but it's quite an extensive process, and it's a very good process, um, within SSA. They actually do, can they also do the lifestyle audit? I will say, um, so I will say it's a very, very good, uh, uh, um, um, assessment that they do, um, um, and it is something that should be written in your advert. So, before you even, if you look at the advert and, and, and then we know from the start, you've got integrity, if you don't want to, uh, the job, and you must go for your clearance, you must not even apply. Stay, whatever you want to do. So, I think it's important that, uh, we, we must bring it in, like you have said, Commissioner, we need to put it from certain levels, we need to put it in the advertisement, and make sure you either going to object yourself to one, because we do know it is, it is a, a process that we say that you will, we will start the process with you, or that you will come with my one. They wanted me to come with my security clearance already."

"Thank you, Mr. Skak. Thank you, Commissioner. Please proceed."

"Apologies. Perhaps before you, you go there, the 18.5, that's the vacant position. How long has this been vacant?"

"This position has been vacant for a, for a while. We did start the process. I think we've, we've started the process already. Um, I'm speaking under correction, two, twice or thrice. However, I'm not just going to appoint somebody because I must fill the position. I want to make sure the person is fit for purpose. So, if we're going to, if I'm going to appoint a Deputy Commissioner for Specialized Services, it will be a person that will be able to perform the function. So, I will rather, if, if the candidates are not fit, I will rather than, uh, make sure that we, uh, readvertise. So, that is the only reason why the position hasn't been filled yet."

"Just to be clear, how long is a while?"

"When I came, it was already vacant."

"Okay. Thank you."

"Can I continue?"

"Please."

The TMPD is a municipal police service of the Chuani Metropolis, City of Chuani, and we receive a budget allocation from the city to run its operations and to fulfill its mandate. As such, the officials of the TMPD work closely with city officials from other departments, both administratively and operationally. The TMPD does not procure services on its own. Instead, it is the city's Supply Chain Management Finance Department that does the procurement and management of contracts, authorizing services and payments of such services. However, we do play a role that we have to make sure that in the department of, um, Deputy Commissioner Glamini, that he needs to process the invoices and create certain documents in order to go to the CFO, Accounts Payable. And then he must also make sure there's checks and balances before it goes to the department of the CFO, who is responsible for the payment, if they are happy with whatever documents is submitted to them or on the system."

"Payments are at a later stage of the process. That is after appointments have been made. Um, in this sentence, you say that the TMPD provides in input into the procurement process from inception. Um, what role exactly does it play at those earlier stages, that is before an appointment has been made?"

"Are you referring to the tenders? Uh, uh, Commissioner."

"Let's look at, uh, maybe it will clarify what you mean. Let's look at your last sentence of paragraph 20."

"Yes, that is what I mean. But."

"However, the TMPD as the end user will provide input into the procurement process. I understand that to refer to, um, stages before the actual, uh, appointment, because when you substantiated, you referred to a role that's played by, uh, Deputy Commissioner Lamini's section."

"That role being, or rather, that role relating to payments."

"Yes. So, my point is, payments are at a very late stage, which is the procurement process has actually been finalized, a contract is in place, and then there are payments to the successful bidder once services have been, uh, provided. So, what I'm saying is, you refer to procurement process, which I understand to refer to a stage before an appointment."

"Uh, Commissioner, there's also, uh, Chairperson, there's stages before, as a technical, if you want to procure, um, any equipment, you, as the technical expert, will have to assist, especially when it comes to the beginning stages, BC, or specifications, BC, you need to assist them with what exactly is the product that you, as the law enforcer, wants, because the person, the civilian person won't. So, you will obviously, it, we will start with what, what, what is the end, what, what do you want the product to do, and then from you, obviously work your way back. So, there, we assist with technical expertise. Um, however, when it comes to the Supply Chain Management, it is completely with a, with a CFO, and is also, he's also the chairperson of the BAC, and then etc., uh, um, but we must give that technical, and even if we, if we give the technical advice, there's always somebody from Supply Chain Management that also guide, guide them in terms of the Supply Chain Management policy."

"Just to make sure I understand, um, what you've referred to specifically is the bid specification."

"Specifications."

"Because TMPD."

"Will actually be the client in this instance, and therefore they should be involved in, uh, the bid specification. What exactly is required? You've specified that. Is there anything else that you would mention, um, in which TMPD participates before the actual appointment, before the conclusion of a contract?"

"It should only be, um, uh, as I said, as a technical advice to assist with that, but it, it should not be, um, to be part of the, uh, Supply Chain Management when it, when it, when it is their role. That is their role. Um, so we should not be involved in, in that part."

"Not in the bid evaluation, not in the bid adjudication, not at those stages of the process. It must be the, the, the department of the CFO that must be involved in all of that, because there is, um, if, if people also like, if this is the, they take it to, to the CFO, will identify where it must go, and then they will do it in terms of, if you are meeting the requirements of the, obviously, of the advertisement or what, of the product, and, um, there are things that, that is non-negotiable, you must meet it, and then, um, so they will do that type of, make sure that whoever is there is, is compliant in terms of what they are looking for."

"Thank you. Thank you."

"Commissioner, you, you're discussing the tender process, as I understand it. Can, can I just ask a slightly different question? We, we've had evidence about the procurement of ad hoc security services. Now, as I understood the evidence, the companies that are required, or that are requested to provide that service, are already on a panel. Right? So, you've done that tender process, and now you have a panel, and you must select, uh, ad hoc services from that panel. What is the role or the involvement of Deputy Commissioner Zamini in that process of selecting who the companies that, that are invited to now provide ad hoc services at, at, at any site?"

"Commissioner, that should be with, uh, APSS. That should be strictly with, uh, the Asset Protection and Security Service Department, because that's why you've got, um, people appointed there that will fulfill that role."

"So, that, that will fall under Deputy Commissioner Speed?"

"Yes, 100% Commissioner."

"Okay. May, maybe then explain a little bit more what do you mean when you say that Deputy Commissioner Lamini is involved with procurement? You, you have, you have clarified the payment processes, invoices, but apart from that, what does it mean that he's responsible for procurement?"

"His, his role as administration and support, meaning if, if you operate person, you won't know the SCM processes or, or procurement processes or how to get to the procurement. So, he is there to support, um, assist them to, to, if, if I am the, uh, um, if I am Specialized Services and I require, um, maybe dog food, for example, um, he must assist me, and, and I am the person that know what the dogs need, if they need nutrition, if they need a vet, uh, uh, when must they get the injections, etc. So, I will have that, he will make sure that I, um, um, um, do it the correct way, because as operational person, you won't know how to follow that. So, they will, will have to assist, but they can also do it on their own, but they can go to him to ask for assistance as well."

"With sticking with that example, that kind of procurement, um, it doesn't go to the city, it is something that gets sorted out at TMPD level? Is, is that what your explanation means?"

"No, all procurement goes to the city. We don't ourselves procure. No, no, uh, uh, um, Commissioner. All procurement processes are finalized by the CFO. Okay. It goes to the CFO. It goes to the BAC. Okay. All procurement. There's nothing that TMPD on their own will have their own little, uh, uh, um, BACs, and that we will just be the, as I said, we will assist in, in attending when, because we are the expert, and, and we will also assist in getting the specifications right. However, everything is with the, uh, the CFO. We do not have the department. He doesn't have his own department. He is also not a CFO."

"Okay. Just, just to make sure I understand. So, the, the administrative person or operational person that you say must obtain or get dog food. That's a person sitting at the city, not TMPD?"

"Not TMPD, at the city."

"Thank you. That clarifies it. Thank you."

"At the city. I think we, we sort of got lost, Commissioner Faru, because when Commissioner Baloy asked you a question, she had moved on from a normal tender process and was asking about ad hoc security services, and the question was, in that process, does TMPD play a part? And I had understood the evidence we had before the Easter break to be that the person who issued, uh, purchase orders is actually somebody from the TMPD. So, I'm a little confused now when you say it's, it's the city, not TMPD, because then how does Mr. Nissi, and we'll come to him later on, how does he get involved in all these things that we've come to know about?"

"Commissioner, I think there's a little bit of a confusion. If it is, remember that tender or, or that month to month is already in place."

"Yes."

"So, yes, there will be a creation by our side. However."

"When you say your side, TMPD?"

"It will be TMPD. It will be administrative. It will be under admin, administrative and support."

"They will create that. But in order for them, and then, um, the, the invoice must come, the person responsible by, uh, APSS must make sure the invoice that he must, he must make sure it gets stamped, and yes, we did deploy 10 security guards, uh, ad hoc, at the Madlanga Commission. Um, and then it must be verified, because we also have people that go check, we must make sure that your check-in is verified. So, once that, uh, uh, invoice, then you're supposed to only process that invoice."

"So, to that extent, TMPD does play a part in procurement."

"Yes. If it, if it comes to that part. But when it comes to payment, it goes to the CFO to pay after he has also satisfied that the documents that we've done our checks and balances."

"And Commissioner, why are you trying to implicate the Madanga Commission now? You, you're putting us on trial, and that was not the purpose of the question."

"I've got the punchline."

"I'm forcing Chair to come and give evidence now."

"I've got a punchline, Commissioner, when I'm done."

"Thank you. Can I just interfere or continue so that we follow, um, this? You are, you are saying that in the entire procurement process, other than at specification stage, the TMPD does not play a role. For example, no one from TMPD would sit in the BAC committee, the Bid Evaluation Committee. But the evaluation committee is the, is the, chairperson there is the CFO, if it comes to the City of Jani, he is the chairperson of the, of the, of the Bid Evaluation Committee."

"I'm just following up from the question from the chair. Would there be someone from the TMPD?"

"TMPD play a role with a, uh, I like we said, with a bid specifications. Like today, um, um, um, Deputy Commissioner Spee is in the BEC. He will be there. But with the bid evaluation committee, the chairperson there is the CFO. So, yes, we do play a role. However, the chairperson is there, the, the CFO is the chairperson there."

"Okay, thank you. And."

"You say Bid Evaluation Committee is chaired by the CFO. You mean the Bid Adjudication Committee?"

"The BIC, BIC."

"BIC."

"Yes. Thank you."

"BIC is the chief person."

"And who is the, just to make, I'm, Oh, please go ahead. Please go ahead. I was just follow."

"Just to make sure I understand. I understood perfectly when you said that, um, the TMPD plays a role in the bid specification process. That I understood, because it's the client, as it were. So, and, uh, it is the TMPD that knows what they want."

"Yes."

"Now, you said, uh, Deputy Commissioner Spee is at the, you be, uh, Bid Evaluation Committee, not adjudication. So, BEC."

"What role exactly does he play there? Is, is he a member of the BEC, or, or does he have observer status?"

"Obviously, he will have to make sure also when he's there as the, um, product expert. Let me put it that way."

"Is he a member? Is he a member?"

"Yes, he will then be a member, and he's, he will be then appointed by the City Manager gives you that letter. Okay. That's exactly what I was trying to establish earlier when I asked you what role exactly the TMPD plays, and what you emphasized was the role that it plays in the bid specification process."

"So, so I, I now hear something additional, which is participation even in the BEC."

"Yes."

"Yeah. Is there anything else that you may have left out, uh, just in the procurement process?"

"If, if you appoint, although you have the admin, administrator, administration and support, but if you have, uh, product expert, that person will be the project manager from TMPD. I just wanted to add that, and it will come into context later. So, if."

"Please, please repeat that. I'm not sure."

"If, say, say Deputy Commissioner Spee is now by the BEC."

"Mhm."

"So, it won't be that the Deputy Commissioner of Admin and Support is running that role or running. Is it, is it will be Deputy Commissioner Spee because it is in relation to his product or his area of, or his scope."

"So, that is why he is there. I just wanted to make that clear. That's why he is there."

"So, if it relates to some, some other section, it will be another deputy, the relevant deputy."

"You, you are correct."

"Thank you."

"Thank you."

"I'm correct. Relevant to the product."

"Thank you. Can I just, I did, I do apologize that we said we'll try and not interrupt you, but I just want to clarify a few things, Chair, and I wouldn't want to settle you with picking up files, but I just put it on the record that's file two of, and page one, just assist now. This is at specification level for the initial tender, the security tender. Let's just, page one of file two. Are you there, Commissioner?"

"I'm there. Thank you."

"Thank you. So, you'll see this relates to, uh, you'll see that that relates to the security tender TMPD25 2016."

"The, the number before the years, 2015, 2016."

"Smudged."

"Yeah. On my copy, I assume it is with."

"Apologies, I'm just making one point. Truly, it's not relevant as such, but what we."

"But, but, but from the content, do you agree with Mrs. Kakani that that's the, that's the tender?"

"Um, I just want to, Commissioners, as you can see there, if you go to contact person, for example, um, and the per, the where you, the person there, as I explained now, that was the product expert."

"Before you go there, do you want to please confirm what Mr. Kakan, um, wanted you to confirm, which is the tender number, whether it's what O2, Mrs. Kak?"

"Is it?"

"It's apologies. It looks like O2."

"That's, does, that's, does, that's, does, that's O2."

"Yes."

"Oh."

"Yes."

"Yes."

"All right."

"All right. Essentially, my point is that obviously this relates to gardening services. Um, but what we see there is a certain, as a contact person, as you've started, is Director Malachi. Who's Director Malachi? Director Malachi is, uh, the director for protection and services by IPSS. And ordinarily, does he report to you?"

"He reports to Deputy Commissioner Spee."

"Okay. And then, so that this is at this point of specification. If we go further, at page 202, I do apologize. Um, where do we see here, Mr. Kany, that this is about specification? Just refer us to the relevant part."

"Oh, apologies, Chair. I think it's, um, it's literally from the point where it's starting from a, what's this thing, compulsory briefing session, uh, for the tender."

"But it's not that there's a word that says specification."

"All right. All right. Please continue."

"Thank you. I, but I'll refer to chapter at 202. This is the, the process. This is where this tender is being at valuation level, and it states, um, in the middle of the."

page. There's be evaluation committee members, you see that?

>> Yes, I see it.

>> And you see that Mr. Chug Malachi is part of the BC?

>> Yes, I see.

>> Okay. Thank you. That the point I was just making is the involvement of of the of um TMPD in the entire process. Thank you, Chair.

>> Perhaps Commissioner uh Mrs. Kakani, the the answer to the chairperson's question, you find it in file one, at page 57. That's part of the uh, I think that document is called the Supply Chain Management Policy. If you go to page 57 and then paragraph two, right at the bottom, tells you who constitutes the BC and paragraph B thereof. Do you see where I'm reading, Commissioner?

>> That file one that had your statement?

>> Oh, and that's file two.

>> The one that has your statement?

>> On my statement?

>> Yes, the file that has your statement.

>> Okay.

>> Thank you, Commissioner.

>> At page 57, so this is the Supply Chain Management Policy that we are looking at. 57 2B, it tells you who, in fact, two tells you who makes up the BC. And B says, it will be composed of officials from the departments requiring the goods and services. I think that's what that's the answer to the chairperson's question, who is in the BC and what is their role. You see that?

>> Yes, I see that, Commissioner.

>> Thank you.

>> I see that, Commissioner.

>> Thank you. Thank you, Commissioner. Is there anything that stops Mr. Ni from appointing an official from TMPD into the BAC? Is that precluded? Because he's the one who constitutes these committees. Is, is there anything that stops him from appointing the same Mr. Malachi to be a member of the BAC?

>> Commissioner, if I can, if I can see what you are referring to, then I can maybe um, I know that uh uh evidence leader has now uh pointed out uh in terms of the BC and um, as well as the BS conditions that there is now um, that Commissioner Baloya has now made clear here. If there's any way that you, if, if we come there, if you can just point that out for me so that I can just uh look at that evidence in page 57, 57.

>> Sorry. Uh, on page 57 of ania YF1.

>> Yes.

>> Commissioner Baloy referred you to the Bid Evaluation Committee and its composition. And the main paragraph two says, "All the standing BEC's established by the accounting officer must," and then B says, "composed of officials from the departments requiring goods and services." So those are the end users. And then if you go to page 59, I'm not sure if this is the rest of the policy. There seem to be the concluding pages missing, but it deals with the composition of the bid adjudication committee, and you see that in 2.2, 24.3. And I had understood you to be saying earlier that the CFO is responsible for the procurement process. So he will appoint members of these committees. And my question was, is there anything that precludes him from appointing a Commissioner Piece or a Mr. Malaji to be members of the BAC? So it is all tied to chair's question. Does the TMPD play any role in the procurement process? And we've established that at specifications, they are there. We've established that at evaluation, they should be there. The policies say so. So the last leg of it is in the adjudication phase. Is there anything that precludes the CFO from appointing a TMPD official to be a member of the adjudication committee?

>> Uh, Commissioner, my understanding is that the accounting officer is, is appointing the accounting officer.

>> The City Manager.

>> The City Manager. So, is there anything that precludes the City Manager from appointing a Commissioner Piece to be a member of the BIC?

>> You, you talking about the City Manager?

>> Yes.

>> Remember, we're concerned with whether TMPD plays any role in the adjudication process. And I had understood your earlier answer to be, they don't play a role there. But my question is, is there anything that stops whoever the appointing authority is from appointing a TMPD officer or any of the deputies or even you to sit in the BAC to evaluate or adjudicate a particular tender? And to be fair to you, Commissioner, if, if you are not sure, maybe you can provide the answer at a later date or through a supplementary statement because it's going to be important when we make our recommendations. If we see that there are gaps in how security services are procured, then we should close that gap as well.

>> So if you don't have an answer right now, it's unfair of me to, you know, on the spot expect you to give the answer. It's something that if you're not sure, you can deal with it at a later stage.

>> Commissioner, I will prefer to to give a supplementary in that regard. I want to make 100% sure. I want to uh, dot my eyes and make sure that I, I give a, I look at all the, I could look at the MFMA, I look at the SCM. I, I really want to give a proper answer. So, and you are correct. So if there is maybe um, recommendations that we can put in place and if it is that something has happened or it can happen in future, we, we will have to make sure that that doesn't repeat itself again, or maybe if it hasn't happened in future, it can happen in future. So I will prefer that I get that homework and then I will give the supplementary uh, a detailed one also and put also from the SCM policy and also look at all uh municipal sorts of policies and how it can be done. So if I can be able to get homework, I will prefer that.

>> If I understand Commissioner Kumalo's question correctly, it relates to um, the appointment of members of the Bid Adjudication Committee. Um, I want to take you back to the BEC, the Bid Evaluation Committee, and uh, paragraph two at page 57, um, which uh, Commissioner referred you to. I see there's reference there to the word "standing". "All the standing BEC's established by the accounting officer must," then AB and so on. I just want to focus on the word "standing". Um, what exactly, what's the import of that word here? Um, does it suggest that there are standing BEC's and also ad hoc BEC's, or what exactly is the import of that word?

>> Commissioner, and how I understand it, if, if you in that in that relation, it is, "must". It must not, it must be a BC that is obviously signed off by the accounting officer. I cannot have my own um, BEC.

>> Um, it must be uh, uh, standing BEC's established by the county of that is how I >> understand it. Um, my main uh, um, um, two words I'm taking from there or three words is the, "it must be established by the".

>> >> I, yes, I do realize of course that as the Commissioner of the TMPD, you are not necessarily an expert in procurement. So perhaps we, we are putting you in a difficult position.

>> Not to, Commissioner.

>> Sorry. Sorry.

>> Sorry. You said what?

>> I said no. Commissioner, this is very good. Um.

>> Yes.

>> You, you cannot walk away from here and you don't learn.

>> Yes.

>> Or, or maybe you've, you've read it. I've read it a thousand times.

>> Yes.

>> But I see commissioners breaking it down. So, um, it, it gives me, it gives me, I'm, I'm, I'm learning something and it's good to learn. Yes. So, um, um, I'm, I'm, as you say that, I'm not an expert when it comes to uh, supply chain management, obviously. Um.

>> Of course, it does not, I'm not suggesting that you know nothing about it. Not at all. Um, perhaps when you do that supplementary affidavit, you may also just want to touch on uh, the, the import of the word "standing" in uh, in 242, paragraph 20, clause 24.22. Um, but of course, if, um, somebody with more knowledge on matters relating to procurement will be called, then is that person who may.

>> Don't give my homework away, Commissioner.

>> The the necessary evidence in this.

>> I will write it out 20 times and I won't forget.

>> Thank you. Thank you. Yes, Mrs. S. Before that, uh, maybe Commissioner, as you do that exercise, uh, you, you should look when you look at 24, 1B, it's the one that speaks about a standing uh, Bid Evaluation Committee. And then it tells us who, what committees those are. I think it's Services, Infrastructure, and Corporate Services. Those are your standing committees. And then when you then go on to another paragraph 2515 at page 59, it says, "The accounting officer may appoint other special BEC's as and when the need arises." So keep, keep that in mind.

>> But also keep, look at the functions of the standing committees. Uh, so for example, you will find somewhere that the Corporate Services uh, standing committee BEC is also responsible for TMPD tenders, among, among others. So maybe that whole 2425, look at that as you try to resolve who's responsible for what.

>> Thank you, Commissioner. I'll do that. Thank you.

>> Thank you, Commissioners. And of course, I think other people from SCM are still going to come. Perhaps they will also try and break down this uh, these issues about the BEC's. Um, in terms of the budgets, um, from the specification stage onwards, how do you have any knowledge how that is dealt with? So, for example, for these security services, what informs the budget and how far, what powers would the user department have in relation to budget? So, for example, if it's 800 million, would it, how would it be determined? It's the amount of sites that is um, allocated and then, or how many sites that needs to be um, guarded? And then obviously, it will be make sure that uh, the, how much it, the amount that must be paid to the service provider, how many guards, and then that will be, if you, that you will times that per month and then obviously by 12. So that, that actually informs the budget.

>> Yeah. Okay. Then what I'm, I'm trying to get at is whether, for example, let's take, let's say a certain official that is responsible, um, Mr. Malaji, for example, and I'm not picking up, um, picking on him. He would inform in the specification meeting or committee that we require this budget for these services or for this tender. And then let the other members know that this is what we require, let's say 800 million. And then who has the final decide, decision on the actual funds that would be the value? Would it be the CFO?

>> The, the, the budget will, it's, it's every year. So the budget is already there. So in terms of how many um, we've got um, as I said, we've got, we've got insource security that is um, um, we've got insource and outsource security. You know, the insource is the 1,271 that we have.

>> Perhaps maybe let me clarify my question. And I do apologize. If in a scenario where the budget is there, no way of checking whether the budget requested is higher than what it should be. The budget as requested is linked to how many sites are being guarded. If there's more budget that needs to, that is required, for example, if there may be you require more guards at a site because of vandalism and breaking, say you are only at one, but because of whatever situation, you need to require more. However, there must be a reason why you put additional guards. That is what when I um stumbled across the ADOC, I wanted to know what influence ADOC. What is your definition of ADOC? Because you cannot just put additional guards, but nothing has happened to influence that. That is just for me, logic. What, what made you put the decal guards there? That for me, uh, uh, it was the, the, the crux that I would like to go in more deeper when I come to that um, topic, why I stopped the ADOC um, deployment. If, if I will be allowed, Commissioners, if I can do that. I would really want to, what made me stop it, and I would like to go more deep into that when I come to that paragraph or that heading.

>> Thank you. Please proceed. We will come back to it. So you, at, I think you will start with paragraph 21. I'm at 12 of 23 to your statement. If you file one, please apologize. That is file one. So, paragraph 20, we were dealing with paragraph 20 of your statement.

>> Yes.

>> Proceed to paragraph 21.

>> In my capacity as the Chief of TMPD and um, the accounting officer, I do sign service level agreements drafted by legal services and supply chain management which relates to TMPD. In so far as I may be so authorized, directly or through a delegation where necessary, I delegate signing powers. This is probably a small matter, but I'm used to the concept "accounting officer" in relation to in this.

>> To TMPD.

>> Is that term ever used? Is it ever used?

>> I know of only one accounting officer, which is the City Manager.

>> The City Manager. Yes.

>> So in my capacity as the Chief of Police of TMPD, I do sign service level agreements.

>> I'm not saying you're wrong. You know it better. I think, Commissioner, it's just that I'm not used to.

>> Yeah.

>> I agree, Commissioner.

>> All right. So, so we scratch out uh.

>> And accounting officer.

>> And accounting officer sentence. Agreed.

>> All right. Thank you.

>> Agreed, Commissioner.

>> Thank you.

>> I have sufficient experience in municipal policing and management of municipal policing as stated above. Since 2016, I've been at the helm of municipal police departments. This position requires you to have ultimate responsibility and oversee the running of the department. However, Commissioners, do not forget, I have deputy commissioners as per page seven because you cannot expect the President of the country must be responsible for the whole country. That's why he's got ministers. So the same with me. I'm not abdicating my responsibility. Definitely not. That's why I meet with my deputy commissioners Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays. On a Monday, Deputy Commissioner of Admin and Support is only joining because on a one Wednesday, midweek, we want to see how the crime look. Friday, prepare for the weekend. And then I have a special budget meeting every month. There were times that I didn't have it due to reasons. However, that is the measures I put in place to to make sure that I can also have my finger on the pulse. I must continue to caution that my role is management, and therefore I rely on the information provided to me from the deputy commissioners or acting deputy commissioners or any other person who is authorized to perform such. You must also be aware of the various dynamics that have plagued municipalities, such as fraud and corruption, procurement best practices in terms of C, the law, regulations.

>> Apologies, apologies, Commissioner Chair. I'm not certain where the time for breaking, whether it would be 11 or quarter 11 before we start this new topic. 11.

>> So you, or you want us to now, before we start?

>> The procurement best practices.

>> Correct. Let's adjourn and resume at uh, 25 past 11. Thank you, Chair. Thank you, Commissioner Faroh. Would you please then continue from um, section C, paragraph 23 of your statement. We should be able to move with some sort of speed, but um, yeah, please take us through. Thank you.

>> Procurement best practices. The laws, regulations, and policies relating to procurement are all well-meaning and are aiming at ensuring a fair, transparent, and competitive procurement of services and goods. This originates from section 217 of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa of 1996, which we also know as the Constitution, which demands that procurement for goods and services by an organ of state must be done in accordance with a system which is fair, equitable, transparent, competitive, and cost-effective. In terms of chapter 11 of the Local Government Municipal Finance Management Act, number 56 of 2003, the MFMA deals with the procurement of goods and services for municipalities. Section 111 thereof requires each municipality to have and implement a Supply Chain Management Policy. Such a policy must be fair, equitable, transparent, competitive, and cost-effective. Section 112 sets out what the policy should cover, and I need not regurgitate, save to highlight the following which is required: that the policy should cover the range of procurement processes that the municipality may use, including tenders, quotations, auctions, and other types of competitive bidding procedures and mechanisms for each type of procurement process are open and transparent, pre-qualification and process processes for tenders or other bids, bid documentation, advertising and invitations of contracts, procedures and mechanisms for the opening, registering and recording of bids in the presence of interested persons, the evaluation of bids to ensure best value for money, negotiation for the final terms of contracts and approval of bids, then compulsory disclosure of any conflicts of interest in respect of prospective contractors and exclusion of such prospective contractors from the tenders or bids, participation of persons who are not officials of the municipality, and measures for combating fraud, corruption, favoritism, and unfair and irregular practices, and the promotion or promoting of the ethics of officials and other role players involved in the procurement process. The city has adopted a Supply Chain Management Policy, marked herein as Annex A YF1, which is in line with the Constitution and other applicable legislation, national and local regulations, ordinances, circulars, and policies relating to procurement. The city's Supply Chain Management Policy has been reviewed and amended from time to time. For present purposes, I will rely on the latest one which has been adopted by the Council. The policy identifies the following as pillars of the city's Supply Chain Management: Number one, for 26.1, fairness and equity; 26.2, transparency; 26.3, competitive and cost-effective; and 26.4, value for money. 27. Paragraph 27. Further, the policy sets out the principles which include accountability, efficiency, effectiveness, fairness, legality, transparency, responsiveness, informed decision-making, integrity, consistency, competitiveness, and sustainability. Paragraph 29. In terms of paragraphs 9 of the policy, it sets out the roles and responsibilities for the various role players in the procurement process. In respect of it, I point out the main responsibilities: Paragraph 9.1, the Council must maintain oversight over the implementation of the Supply Chain Management Policy. Paragraph 9.2, two, the Executive Mayor must provide general political guidance over the fiscal and financial affairs of the municipality as per section 52 of the MFMA. In this regard, he or she may monitor and oversee the exercise of responsibilities assigned to the accounting officer and the chief financial officer, but may not interfere with the exercise of these responsibilities. Paragraph 9.3, the accounting officer is obliged to develop and implement the effective and efficient supply management system that is fair, equitable, transparent, competitive, and cost-effective for the acquisition of goods, services, and works. Paragraph 9.4, the chief financial officer is administratively in charge of the budget and treasury office. He or she must perform budgeting, accounting and analysis, financial reporting, cash management system, debt management, supply chain management, financial management review, and other duties as may be delegated to him or her. It is imperative that there is compliance with procurement processes and principles to ensure that the city and more relevantly, the TMPD functions optimally and properly. Ultimately, the city and or TMPD will procure services and goods in a manner that will be cost-efficient and therefore fulfill its mandate in line with the pre-approved plans. It is important to observe that all procurement-related legislation, regulations, and more specifically the SCM policy are clear on condemning issues that have become notorious in procurement. These include unethical conduct, fraud, corruption, manipulation of procurement, conflict of interest, and misconduct by officials. It is a force that leads to tenders being awarded corruptly, and goods acquired at all services provided at exorbitant prices or at prices higher than market value. This will exhaust the budget and resources, thus leading to the inability of the municipality or the TMPD in this case to meet its obligations. Moreover, when tenders are awarded in this fashion, the expenditure will be irregular, fruitless, and wasteful. The force usually leads to qualified audits from the Auditor General. I now want to turn to the to deal with the unit which is responsible for asset protection. I want to start with a handover.

>> Commissioner, just before you move on, um, just as a way of understanding, within TMPD, I would take it obviously you try and ensure that these values and principles are adhered to.

>> Yes.

>> Okay.

>> I agree. All right. We've seen the testimony of a certain certain Goi um, who came before the commission, and it was clear, and we're still going to go there, that he had some involvement in how um, TMPD procured services or in the in the procurement of services for TMPD. Just as a request for your comment, how would it be correct or wrong for for certain cause to have been involved in that fashion?

>> Southern Cor had no right to interfere in any procurement related matters within the TMPD. He has no authority. He had no permission. I was not aware that he is busy interfering. I don't know Sen Corsy. I never made contact with him. The first time I saw Southern Cory was on the Mlanga Commission. So I want to state it categorically. He had no authority to interfere in any TMPD procurement related matters.

>> Are there other surgeon causes who are interfering in TMPD processes? We've only seen one so far. My worry is that could be the tip of the iceberg.

>> Commissioner Kumalo, if there's any other persons or persons that is interfering or think of interfering when it comes to TMPD procurement issues, we will deal with them.

>> Has, has any politician or political party or somebody outside of the TMPD ever given you an instruction to support any service provider or to appoint any individual to a particular position? Have you, since you have been head of TMPD, ever received pressure from a political party or an outsider to make such appointments, whether they are HR related or procurement related?

>> None has approached me, Commissioner Kumalu, and I don't think they will.

>> You've never experienced that?

>> I have not approached me since I'm here. I've started the 1st of October 2023. None of them has contacted me. I've met with nobody on or off record. Nobody has contacted me to date, and they will not contact me after today in terms of any procurement related issues when it comes to TMPD or to assist with HR related or appointments. No, Commissioner Kumalo, and I am under oath.

>> Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Scott. Commissioner, you, you've answered these questions from Commissioner Kumalo, and and it's, it's about procurement matters, which is also the focus of your statement. But you would also be aware of our terms of reference that we're not just confined to to looking at matters of corruption that may be limited to to procurement. We, we have a wider mandate. Um, that relates that includes infiltration by criminal syndicates. Uh, the nature, consequence of infiltration in the facilitation of organized crimes, suppression of >> investigations, inducement into criminal uh, or other unlawful activities, commission of criminal offenses, and then aiding and abetting criminal activity. Uh, failure to act on credible intelligence, uh, benefiting financially or politically from syndicate operations. All, all of that is not directly, yes, it does in the broader scheme of things encompass uh, procurement corruption, but what I've read for you now, very quickly, is wider than that. When it comes to the TMPD, um, are you aware of, are you not aware of criminal conduct that involves members of the TMPD, even just allegations, uh, that would involve members of the TMPD, which is not necessarily about procurement?

>> Thank you, Commissioner Baloy. Commissioner, um, we have a very active Internal Affairs uh within the Tshwane Metro Police Department, headed by um, Brigadier Danny Manar. Yes, we came across that, especially when I came to the city of Tshwane, and um, we've dealt with him through consequence management. Quite a few, we have to put also measures in place and make sure from the low, the first supervisor, if your member is found wanting, that first supervisor must also be held accountable. You should know where your member is. So we are putting measures in place to make sure that we are have a type of a credible TMPD. I do not take kindly to corruption at all. A, a Commissioner, I do not want to see a TMPD officer that's a criminal in uniform. That is not what I want to stand for. We are in charge of the capital city. We are supposed to be the shining star. So we do put measures in place, and we're coming down harsh on those that, even if it's not to to do with procurement, anything that is not within the code of conduct and the oath that they have taken, we need to make sure that we are cleaning up. I'm only talking about TMPD, but we must clean up all the Metro Police Departments, including all law enforcement departments. We really need to have an introspect and make sure that we do that. We cannot just say it is not happening in my backyard. However, whatever we pick up, not only through the commission, we need to make sure we put measures in place that it does not happen in your department or in your city or even in the country as well.

>> I may just follow up on my own question. The, we, in, in, in evidence about another municipality, metro rather, there are there suggestions, for example,

>> that officers are implicated in truck hijackings, for example. Um, I think somewhere there's been suggestions, not necessarily for that municipality, but suggestions about involvement in cash-in-transit, facilitating those things. Is this an issue that in TMPD you, you have had to deal with or you are aware of suggestions and allegations that your officers, some may may be involved with that?

>> Uh, when I came to TMPD, it was September. There was a rest of TMPD officers that was involved in a, a, a, I think it was truck hijacking.

>> Truck hijacking, it was involved. That was my welcome to TMPD. So we are not naive, and we know um, some of the officers uh, uh, can work together. So we are not naive in terms of that. We do um, um, make sure that we, uh, um, put measures in place for that. Um, complaints, when, when I came, yes, I received complaints like that, um, in the last year or two, not so much. However, we are not naive that those things are not taking place. Um, there were certain hotspots that uh, uh, um, I had to put measures in place, whether it is only for, for, where it only for when bribes are taken, hotspots where you wait for somebody that's coming from, uh, uh, a pub, maybe, you know, people are drunk, which I, um, you should not be driving drunk also, and not, not have cash in your car to make sure that you bribe an officer. I've requested the officers to actually arrest people that do that. Then I will applaud them if you arrest somebody that's bribing you, not the other way around. So, yes, Commissioner, we had that complaints. Um, we are putting measures in place, definitely in that regard. I've got the Integrity Unit as well. And besides the Internal Affairs Unit, now the Integrity Unit visits the parades, that Integrity Unit goes to these hotspots to see where we get complaints from. They mostly deal only with fraud and corruption cases. So, yes, Commissioner, we do have to put extra measures in place. You cannot just have your normal measures in place.

>> Thank you.

>> Can I just follow up on this? Uh, and Commissioner Faroh, to be fair to you, you don't have to respond now, so you can do it by way of a supplementary statement. Uh, issues arose with another municipality. There was no specific allegation against TMPD. So, remember you said you were going to deal with the vetting issue and the BEC/BAC issue in the supplementary.

>> So, can you add these two other issues? Uh, how TMPD responds to IPID's uh recommendations. So, in other words, if there was an investigation by IPID and they have made recommendations that have to be implemented by TMPD, what is TMPD's attitude to that? Because we have heard from Euri, for example, that if somebody is being charged criminally, then they don't act against that person internally. They wait, I wait the outcome of the criminal case before they act against somebody, even if there's clear uh, evidence of wrongdoing, uh, especially misconduct of a serious nature which falls short of criminal conduct. That's the third issue. How you deal with IPID. The fourth issue, it came up, but there was no specific allegation against TMPD, is the issue of whether there are any private companies or security companies that use blue lights and have been given that authority by TMPD, if you are aware of any such cases within TMPD. So please don't respond now. It's unfair to put you on the spot, but by way of a supplementary statement, you can cover those issues.

>> I will most definitely do that, uh, Commissioner Kumalo, definitely.

>> And I think the evidence leaders will assist you and remind you if needs be. Uh, they don't need to remind me. Commissioner Kumalo, you will have it. Thank you. Thank you, Commissioner.

>> May I continue?

>> No, just to follow up on the question before one forgets. Um, you talk about measures in place that have been put in. Um, if you can just explain just briefly, what kind of measures would that, would those be? One, and two, when would you say those measures were effective, if you had to assist? And, and I'm asking this because some of the things that we'll go through later on would have happened after you joined. So I just wanted to get clarity on that before we go further while we're dealing with the suspect.

>> You, you referring to uh, in terms of misconduct or what we are currently dealing with?

>> Just ensuring that the, there is no corruption, fraud, and all of those things.

>> You, you spoke about having put measures in place. As I said, we, we want to make sure that, um, um, the, like you, like the Commissioner Baloy has alluded to. Corruption is not only when it comes to the the tender side, and, and, and, and that is that is the, the, this one part of it. Corruption also when you stop a vehicle, when you accept goods that you're not supposed to, and you're not issuing the fine that you're not supposed to issue. Corruption can be anything. Uh, giving information you're not supposed to give to assist in a tender. Uh, so in terms of the, uh, discipline side, as I said, we put, we, we had the Integrity Unit already in place. However, we also encourage the public to report. We encourage the public to report any form of corruption when it comes to uh, TMPD, and not only report it on social media. We want the public to be part of cleaning up any law enforcement department, obviously, but we would like them also not to participate uh, in, in, in any form of corruption, whether it is a fine that you want to get out of, or because you are driving drunk. In terms of the, uh, procurement side that you want, you alluded to. Um, obviously, we've picked up uh, number one, you, you have a, a deputy in charge, which is quite, it's a Major General, it's quite a high level of accountability. It's just under the Commissioner of Police. By putting a Commissioner, a Deputy Commissioner in charge of administration of of support, that is quite a, a huge thing. However, we all know why are we here, and we all know why TMPD is here, and obviously, PE people will also come before the commission to explain their role in terms of what they did or what they were not supposed to do. We have meetings, as I said, we have regular meetings in in that regard. We also make sure that accountability is also for each and every deputy commissioner. But as I say, we moving forward. We take everything that comes to us. We also, I'm going to plan a very big workshop with from um, the top until the full colonels, so that we can look at each and every measure and make sure that whatever there is that shouldn't have happened and cannot happen, that we will put that measures in place as well, and then each and everyone must take accountability for it.

>> Thank you. Perhaps before we move on again, you talk about meetings with your deputy commissioners. How often do you have meetings with them, or how often do you require briefings from them?

>> Three times a week I'm meeting with my deputy commissioners, 7:30 in the morning until completion, Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays.

>> And they would brief you about everything that is important, and you'd ask questions, or you'd rely on them to give you any update?

>> Correct.

>> Okay.

>> Correct.

>> Thank you.

>> But it doesn't stop them from making contact with me after the meeting or in the in between dates if an emergency occurs.

>> Thank you. Please proceed to the handover of asset protection to TMPD.

>> Handover of asset protection to TMPD. This section aims to highlight the movement of the Asset Protection and Security Services Unit (APS) to Tshwane Metro Police Department. In respect of this process, I highlight the following: The City of Tshwane Security Division was incorporated into the TMPD when TMPD was established in 2002. On 15 April 2021, the then Executive Mayor of Tshwane, Councillor Randall Williams, placed the asset protection function and personnel in the office of the City Manager, reporting to Mr. Nava Pale. Then from December 2023 till June 2024, the asset protection security services was managed by Mrs. Pedi Marota, the Group Head in the office of the City Manager. 1st July 2024, the City Manager transferred the asset protection and security service back to the care of Tshwane Metro Police Department. I then instructed Deputy Commissioner Bles, responsible for training and innovation, and standing in as the Staff Officer, to oversee this process in light of the imperative need for a senior figure at the level of a rank of Deputy Commissioner to manage the process, which comprised of a wide range of junior level officials. It might also be noted that in terms of APSS, there is a lot of supervisory staff that is still required. This was intended to be a temporary measure while I started the process to appoint a fully-fledged Deputy Commissioner for Asset Protection Security Services. At the time of the handover of APSS back to TMPD, 1st July 2024, I did not receive a handover report. A report was then emailed by me to me by Group Palei Marota nine months later during April 2025. What this meant, Commissioners, is that for the longest time, I could not properly acquaint myself with what was happening with APSS. However, I did not wait for a handover report to try understand the complexity of APSS. The process of handover was not a user handover, which had clear guidelines and made the process extremely complicated, as can be seen by the email attached and the report marked herein as Annex A YF2, which is in the bundle. As I stated above, the APSS is a huge responsibility. Bearing in mind, Commissioners, I still have a TMPD to run, and as, as could be imagined, involves the physical security services to protecting the assets and persons of the City of Tshwane. It was imperative for me that I get someone senior in rank to temporarily oversee, as I already alluded to, and that was Deputy Commissioner Bles, and he over, he was overseeing the unit from 1st of July 2024 until 28th of February 2025, whereas 1st of March 2025, I've appointed Deputy Commissioner Revo Spiss, and he became the head of the unit. Sorry, Commissioner. If you turn to page 60 of the file that you have, file one. Is that the report that you got that you are referring to?

>> Just say again the NXer.

>> F YF2.

>> Y F2.

>> At page 60. That is correct. And if you can just go to page 65, is the email that accompanied the report.

>> Thank you. And not, we will, we'll come back to it later on. Thank you. Please proceed.

>> Jessica, can, when you say you'll come back to the report itself?

>> To the report to interrogate detail. This is unless the commissioner has specific questions, we can deal with. You have one question, but I'm happy to leave it until you get back to it.

>> I think in fairness, you can ask, Commissioner.

>> All right. Uh, Commissioner, at page 60, that report, sorry, paragraph three, uh, that very first, first paragraph in quotes, the implementation of, you see where I'm reading? Commissioner.

>> Is it by the, uh, background, background, Commissioner?

>> And then the very first paragraph in quotes, it says, "The implementation of the processes regarding the absorption of security guards is a critical deliverable for this administration. Extensive consultation discussion have taken place on this matter to ensure it occurs seamlessly." And then the next paragraph, it says, "It is for this reason that I took the decision to place this process in the office of the City Manager, uh, through PL, Mr. P." You see where I'm reading that, that absorption, is that what is commonly or has been commonly referred to as insourcing of of of security?

>> Commissioner, I prefer.

>> Is it the, is it the same thing?

>> Yes, Commissioner. I prefer the word in-house capacity building, building in-house capacity.

>> So, yes, Commissioner, that is correct. Um, we have 1,271 of that at the moment.

>> And we intend to actually build more in-house capacity so that we cannot be reliant moving forward on outsourcing.

>> That actually is really my question. It is, if, if this big decision was made to insource, these are people that were previously provided by contractors, as I, as I imagine, these people that are now being insourced, they were previously uh, procured on contracted services, right?

>> Yes. Yes.

>> And now you bring them in-house. Why is it that there is still this um, procurement of external security that costs you nearly a billion rand, if in fact, uh, this insourcing uh, was achieved its purpose, which is to bring the service in-house so that you're not reliant, and yet we see from your expenditure uh, that in fact you're heavily reliant on external security. Can you just explain how it was conceived and how it has worked out or not worked out?

>> Um, Commissioner Baloy, there's two scenarios here. If you, if you have built your in-house capacity, it goes with your pension fund. It goes with your medical aid. It goes with all that. You must make sure that you have your um, resources, whether it's uniform, whether it is the vehicles, and you must make sure that they also trained in, in up to a certain level. So the, the, the municipality can, if, if you look at one officer, you will actually maybe need four, if you look at the system and everything. So you need to make sure that it's, it's a gradual, uh, type of u, um, um, um, to insource you, it takes time. It is not an easy, uh, it might look easy, but it's not easy. We, um, if you look at the, the current 1,271, it was already in, in-house capacity was built or insourced in 2019 at the moment, but we are still busy with the training, and then every year we, we make sure they get certain benefits. So you need to have a proper plan in place to make sure that you, even if it's small amounts, if I, I've already drafted a plan how I wanted to eventually insource, and it will take plus minus 6 years to 7 years to to completely insource. It can be quicker. It all depends on budget, uh, uh, permitted. However, I just took a plan that is, uh, but if more budget becomes available, it can be quicker, and also the training of, of, of, of, you need to train, you need to give uniform, it is really, it is the cost will be a little bit more than what we have at the moment, but the long-term, as you say, as you see, I would prefer to have in-house capacity than to sit with the with the issues that we're sitting with at the moment. Um, to stay away from from from from tenders, uh, uh, um, and just make sure that we build our in-house capacity. Also, if you're going to your, your, your, um, infrastructure, you need to have control over your infrastructure yourself. That is what I believe. The moment you outsource, you also don't have completely and full control over your infrastructure, which is critical.

>> So, is it fair, looking at what it is now, which is this heavy reliance on on external contractors to provide the service, is it fair to say that, uh, even after this first attempt at insourcing, which you say it's six years now, is still training, that in fact, even after that, the city continued to be reliant on external?

>> Yes, it's.

>> External services. So it's, it's not as if there was a, a gain to the city. There may have been a gain to the job security of these, these security guards who were previously provided by a contractor. There is that gain. But the city itself, it doesn't appear that since that exercise, there's been any, any gain budget-wise and control of your own assets. Is that a fair?

>> That is, that is a, that is fair. Um, um, Commissioner.

>> Um, we must also know that we have the City of Tshwane has got a lot of sites.

>> And if you look at the infrastructure that we are protecting, your reservoirs, your, your substations, um, those are things that you cannot leave and wait for until you will be able to insource. Unfortunately, those are the things that you must protect. Um, so the city is at the moment looking and busy with really, uh, to, to have a more vigorous plan. The city has requested me to come up with a plan that is like I said, that I've, I've come up with a plan. However, if you look at budget, however, also how budget becomes available, you can, it's a plan that I, that I have to, to make sure in terms of the budget that I have, and then also a reduction in, uh, we already done an assessment, uh, uh, through, uh, Deputy Commissioner Revo Spiss, in terms of how many guards do you really require? For example, at the library, do you, do you need, you don't need the same at the library that you will need at the water reservoir. So that assessment, we have done already, and also a risk assessment. So to, in order for us, and we started already with even a reduction when it comes to the security guards.

>> Is there a municipality, whether a metro or not, that has successfully, if at all, absorbed otherwise outsourced security services, that has brought it in-house, and it is provided solely in-house security services?

>> I think Nelson Mandela, yes, one or two municipalities that I'm aware of that they do have their own security um department within.

>> And they actually never even had um, maybe outsourced. So I think there's one or two that didn't even started with outsource.

>> Yes, that have their security uh, division that is within the Safety and Security Directorate, and they look after, like I've explained, no, after the assets and the and the personnel of of the municipality.

>> And comparable to, to, I ask because you say you are busy with that project, looking at that, and it is budget, uh, dependent, really, Commissioner.

>> Metros especially, maybe that are comparable. Have you done that kind of comparison?

>> I've done the comparison, how successful, whether anyone has done it, and how successful has it been.

>> I've done that comparison. I, I went even for fact-finding, but they sit with the same issues that I, budget dependent, and then also it depends on how many sites you have. If you, if you look at a small municipality, it's easier for them because they just have a little bit of sites and the type of sites that you have. Is it a site that, um, like I make an example, is it a library, or are we talking it about a big substation that 68% of the City of Tshwane, if that substation is not physically guarded, will be in darkness? I'm just making an example. So we need, I, I needed to do, and we've done it. Uh, uh, um, myself and Deputy Commissioner Spiss, we looked at all of those, and we have plans, and I can promise you, Commissioner, starting with the new financial year, we already actually started with a reduction in security in security uh, personnel by doing our assessment and looking into it, and and certain um, security companies have received letters that we are doing a reduction in in security guards.

>> Thank you. Thank you, Mr.

>> Thank you. Just, just to follow up. Is Commissioner Spie, how long is he appointed? Is on a contract basis?

>> Space.

>> Commissioner Space.

>> Yes. How long will he be at your Deputy Commissioner?

>> He is permanent.

>> Permanent?

>> Until he feels he will leave or he reaches the age that he cannot work anymore. So he is permanently at the TMPD. It is not a contract uh position, sir.

>> Okay. Thank you. Please proceed.

>> Handover. I think I've done the handover.

>> Paragraph 33.

>> 33.

>> Thank you so much, evidence leader. You are so kind. The subject matters required services of.

The below-mentioned tenders were within the umbrella of asset protection and therefore fell within APSS. When Deputy Commissioner Spe took over, he actively engaged in a process of auditing and checking how the unit was operating. As he has testified, he has identified a number of irregularities and all sorts of wrongdoing within the APSS. We are taking some corrective measures in this regard, including consequence management, and we have put procedures for the request for adult services in place.

I must continue to caution again that my role is management and therefore I rely on the information provided to me. I also am not very close to the details and therefore the appropriate person to talk to operational matters are those directly responsible for a particular function or department or unit. I'm not saying that I am not briefed. However, I say this to highlight that the most relevant person to talk to APS and the tenders below obviously was Deputy Commissioner Spiss. He already appeared in front of this commission. I do not wish to repeat also what Deputy Commissioner Spec has already said before the commission. I've gone through his statement and documents, and they appear accurate in relation to the knowledge I have. I therefore have nothing additional to add to his statement.

Okay. Can you please correct the last sentence of paragraph 34? I think what you are trying to say there is you've put controls in place to ensure that when ad hoc services are requested, it is done properly. Now, the way it reads now, that's not what it says. We have put controls in place, a correct commissioner, and also a um procedure or process in how you will request or acquire adult services to ensure that there's no abuse.

Yes, 100% Commissioner Kumalo, 100%. Also to ensure that when you require ADOC, or you, if you, we have a requesting department, say in in in in if it's water and sanitation, for example, you request to us. TMPD, TMPD will go do an assessment in terms of what your request is, and based on our risk assessment, we will then obviously reply to you, or we will, we will add. However, it will come from your budget. It will not come from a budget that I must request additional again. So that is the the procedures that we also have put in place.

I understood the problem though. Um, I think both when Sergeant Gossi was testifying and also when Commissioner Space was, or rather Deputy Commissioner Spie was testifying, to be that is, I understood the problem to be more with regard to who gets appointed to do the ad hoc services. Uh, I, I'm not so sure that the requests, the filling in of a form and so on, address that problem. The problem is with the allocation. I know based on what you said that of course it would not be the TMPD that does the allocations, but I'm not sure to what extent this addresses the problem in the light of what the the real problem is.

Are you referring to the, the allocation, the allocation take from the 22 companies?

Is it Gobis 85?

Gobis 85, um, is the entity that received the lion's share of all ad hoc allocations. That's why I say the the problem appears to be with the allocations. So the filling in of the forms and so on and so on. I'm not so sure to what extent, if at all, that addresses the real problem. Do you follow me?

Yeah.

Do you want me to respond?

You actually, I think you, paragraph 49 of your, your statement does refer to the lion's share received by Gobis 8. But right now, I'm addressing your attempt at addressing the problem, and I'm saying I do not see that that assists in addressing the problem.

Commissioner, that was part of his, my one-on-one briefings with him. Um, although I'm just now touching on that as an example. We need to look at the entire process and not only in terms of, I just use that now, um, um, as an example in terms of because ADOC was this ADOC, and then invoices come. Uh, I was just using that as an example. Um, however, you are correct, Commissioner, uh, Chairperson. We are looking at the entire food chain. We cannot just look into ADOC in isolation. The the the the end of the food chain will be building completely in-house capacity.

Mhm.

That is my ultimate goal.

So we are working towards that goal, Commissioner. So you are correct, Commissioner. We're looking into its and everything.

Thank you. Thank you. The, I mean, the the ad hoc service, this this measure that you've put in place, that there must be an application or a form that requests. Surely when you have this discussion with Commissioner Space, if if he's the inventor of the idea, you must have discussed how you see it being a control mechanism, how, if it is implemented and it is implemented successfully, how does it work to be a control mechanism? And and I think that's what the chair is trying to get out of you.

Yes.

I think when it comes to the to the ADOC, also the fact of the that you need to look within your budget because previously ADOC was over and above, and then it must come from TMPD. So the COO is in charge of the most of the um infrastructure related sites. Let me put it that way. And if there is not a good enough reason for you to have ADOC, you will not even apply for it. I can guarantee you, Commissioners, since we put the measures in place, one or two we received, and it was actually needed because of external whatever measures. We have not received requests for ADOC. So that alone tells me a lot.

Over how long a period was that? That is when you received only two?

Since I've stopped it, uh, Commissioner. Since I've stopped it, I think it was, um, just over a year ago.

It was just over a year ago.

Over a year ago.

12th March 2025.

Okay. And roughly how many of these? But I would imagine it was quite a lot. Roughly how many would, uh, would these ad hoc services be requested?

Uh, Commissioner, if I come after this, it will go to that, um, paragraph where I will say why I stopped it. I will also give the amount. I will just, um, give the month. The the the it was 37, uh, I think it was 20 additional than it was supposed to for one month.

Yeah. Yeah. No, no, no. Obviously, there is a significant reduction if over a period of a year there's only two. No, thank you. Let me know. So I only received two, and it was definitely legit, uh, in terms of that, uh, it met the the criteria.

Thank you.

Why we should put additional. So that's why I'm saying that is already a control measure.

Yes. Yes.

Because we haven't received.

So the question of who these get allocated to, which is the question I asked you earlier, would be secondary, as it were. If you have this very significant reduction.

100% Commissioner.

All right. Thank you. Can I follow up on the chair's question? Uh, are these security companies vetted? The security companies that the City of Swani TMPD uses, are they vetted?

Commissioner, we've, um, put the security, uh, committee to say, yes.

No, no, I'm, I'm, I was just, security committee in place. The committee was supposed to be in place where you have SSA, you have, uh, the COO, you have obviously finance there. And when the, when the unit came over, I saw that that committee is not there. We immediately put that committee in place, and that is one of the things that we say the security companies must be vetted.

But are they? That's my question. Are they vetted?

So the short answer is no. And to to go back to the chair's point on matters of tenders, those who benefit from tenders will obviously seek to create an environment for ad hoc services to continue. So if you've got a reservoir or other things, even if there was no criminal activity there, if they want you to deploy security there, people will do things. And I'm not accusing anybody. So please don't take this to mean that I'm making an accusation. But it's easy for somebody to create an environment that would necessitate the need for ad hoc services to be, you know, required. That's why vetting is important. You must look at who owns these companies. You know, what kind of people are they? So are you going to take steps to put the committee back in place?

Definitely, Commissioner, definitely. Um, you are correct, Commissioner, and that people can create, we are aware of that, that people can create maybe a situation, sabotage, let us call it sabotage, in order for you. And we've already put measures in place, especially with a reduction. We, we obviously expect that there's going to be a backlash. People are not going to just say, "I experienced it." March the 12th of March 2025. People are not just going to go say, "Oh, no, it's fine. Let let us do something else." So I am well aware of that, Commissioner. And what we do, the regional policing that I alluded to, we make sure that where you have reservoirs that we know, you need to include it now in your plan as well. That is also part of my.

Um, Commissioner.

We know from the evidence of of Deputy Commissioner Spee that you, there is a tender process now that is underway.

Um, the previous or your current service providers were appointed by way of an agreed court order. So vetting would not have even been a feature, it seems. In the current process, is there a requirement, uh, that for for companies to be vetted? For the companies that are successful, to be vetted? And is that, and I'm asking about the current tender process, as what was advertised? Do bidders understand that, uh, they would be required to be vetted? And that, and in addition, so that's one. Two, that it would be a disqualifier? Has a decision been made that it will be a disqualifier if a company is not successful, whatever that means when it is vetted? And do bidders, have they been made to understand that, or is that your internal thinking and processes which have not been made public to bidders?

Commissioner, I think if we want to get this right, we, we need to, we, we cannot wait for another 3 years for another tender, and then they take you to court for another 6 years. Um, I think it's important that we this time do it correctly. Um, you do know that the tender went for property, and then obviously the tender was not awarded, and that's why the process has been started obviously from scratch now, where, uh, Deputy Commissioner SP has been appointed also to run it from TMPD site. So I think, a commissioner, if it, if it, if it's not there, it should be included, commissioner, definitely. Um, as I said, we've got the committee, the security committee, and that was one of the recommendations from the security, actually from SSA, the person that's sitting there, um, even before the, uh, um, before the commission, that is one of the the recommendations, and it's already as part of our minutes that that must be done, uh, commissioner. So I think we must have spelled on that, commissioner. So.

If it is part of the recommendations already, one expects that it is part of the current process, the the selection process that you're running, and bidders understand that you're going to apply that.

Yes, Commissioner. We will also use the minutes of that security committee, um, as part of our, uh, terms of reference.

Okay.

Because that committee was appointed by the city manager.

Yeah. I, I guess I'm, I'm probing a different, uh, aspect of this, which is, you do have the the recommendation from that committee, and that recommendation has been approved, but that's an internal process. Whether bidders who submitted tenders in this new process, um, which is still subject to evaluation, whether the bidders who participate in that know that's one of the requirements to succeed in, in, to be awarded the tender, or to be included on the panel, whether they know that's one of the requirements they must meet, is really the question that I'm asking. And and if, if, if you don't have an immediate answer, I'm happy for you to address it, okay.

Uh, in a supplementary statement, or whoever's dealing with procurement and this tender in particular, if they're going to be testifying, that they should deal with that. I would prefer that I add it to my homework. Commissioner Baloy, and, uh, that let me take responsibility for that as the as the Commissioner of TMPD.

Okay. Thank you, Commissioner.

Because you see, uh, Commissioner Faru, as you said earlier, you don't want criminals in the service. I, I had chair correcting me that it's not a force, it's a service. Um, so in the metro police service, you, you don't want criminals, and you cannot, in the same breath, be comfortable with having security companies that have criminals in them looking after the municipality's properties and assets, because it defeats the whole purpose.

Definitely, Commissioner, you are.

So to to Commissioner Baloy's point, going forward, it is something that should be, you can fix the past, but going forward, there's no reason you can have this as a requirement.

Definitely, Commissioner, you are correct, Commissioner. I agree with you 100%. Thank you, Commissioners. The, I just wanted us to locate the statement for Commissioner Piece. It's in the small file. Uh, but you don't need to refer to it. It's, it's just item seven of that statement. We'll get to it later on. of that supplementary plan.

Commissioner Faroh, please proceed. So to.

May I proceed?

Yes.

Thank you. If, if I'm correct, I'm at the top of T, paragraph, uh, 36. Is it 36?

Yes.

Okay. Yes.

Thank you.

You must focus, evidence leader. TMPD 0220 2016/2017 Security Services. At the outset, I point out that tender TMPD 02 2016/2017 was issued, adjudicated, and awarded before my time with TMPD. Bearing in mind, Commissioners, I only started 1st of October 2023. The tender was, according to the water appointment letters, managed by Director Malachi and Mr. Nava Pale within the asset protection unit when it was still under the office of the city manager. In this regard, I referred to annex YF3. As mentioned earlier, the unit was relocated under my control within the asset protection and security services division from 1st July 20. I think that should be 2024, Commissioners, not 2025. Can I ask that that be corrected?

Yes.

Thank you, Chair Chairperson. In this regard, I referred to annexer YF4. Moreover, by the time I was appointed, the procurement process had run its course. The tender started on 1st March 2022, based on a court ruling that was issued on 22nd of October 2021, and I know Commissioner, um, Spec, actually went more into detail in that regard. That's why I do not wish to delve in the occurrences before my time and also prior to the APSS unit transferred to the TMPD. Where I comment, I rely on the facts again that have since come to light and or known to me. Put simply, I will provide a high-level background and comment meaningfully on what I discovered in terms of tender TMPD2620 2017. It relates to a tender issued for the TMPD for the supply of provision of physical security services to protect the property, assets, and the persons of the City of Chuan for a period of 3 years. A copy of the tender document and advert is attached hereto, marked as YF5. The approved budget contract value over the three years was an amount of 800 million rand, spread over three years as follows. As could be seen, this is a huge figure, close to almost 1 billion rand. The financial breakdown was as follows, although it was then delayed since the contract was only implemented in 2022. In 2020, 5, 2020, 2016, the amount was 2,37.

237 million.

23, thank you, Chairperson. 237 million, 632, and 200 rand. Chairperson, are you happy?

You did not say thousand. 632,000.

632.

200.

Yes.

Thank you so much, uh, Chairperson.

We, we won't judge you. We've seen worse. 216, 217, 245 million, 949,300. 2017, 2018, 254 million, 65,600. I do not have a sufficient background in relation to the procurement of the services, evaluation of the bids, and recommendations for these appointments. I therefore cannot state whether any service provider was favored or not. It is apparent from the court order of 2020, 22nd October 2021, that the city and Label Liang Malachi Trading Pty Ltd somehow agreed that bidders recommended by the bid evaluation committee would be appointed to provide the services ultimately. And pursuant to the official court order, the city awarded the service to 22 service providers for 3 years, effective from 1 March 2022 to 28th February 2025. A new tender process started in 2024 to replace the existing tender that would have expired on 28th February 2025. Deputy Commissioner Spiss has already come before the commission, and I believe he has provided the relevant context. Also, at the moment, the new tender, we are busy with that process. As I said, today we are busy with the BAC, and Deputy Commissioner SP has been appointed as the as the, uh, um, responsible person. Also, Commissioners, I know you're going to ask why is this process taking so long? It was my same question, Commissioners. Why, if we know, we don't start 9 months before the time, or even longer, start with the process so that we can not wait for the for the tender, uh, uh, to lapse and you go for a month to month? Commissioners, it can be, as you know, that that is what the environment has been creating for a very long time, that we allow it to lapse and then we just renew it on a monthly, monthly basis, and that we want to come to an end. We don't want that to continue in that fashion anymore. As I already alluded, ultimately my goal, and sooner rather than later, is just to build in-house capacity and not have this function outsourced. Commissioners, next I address the request for additional funding as it was emailed to Deputy Commissioner Spiss by Deputy Commissioner, um, Lamini, that more funds were required.

Can you, can I, can I just stop you? I just want to ask just two questions, perhaps. The report that you got, just want to confirm for the record, it included the tender for TMPD. If you go to page 61 of that file, at the bottom there, paragraph 4.2.1, 2.1, it talks about appointed security service providers.

I'm, I'm still getting there. Just repeat again, sorry, Commissioner.

Page 61.

61.

I'm there.

At the bottom, paragraph 4.2.1.

I'm there. Thank you. The, the city, it, the city appointed 22 security service providers, and then it explains the services. This is the same tender that we're dealing with now. I just wanted to check on your side, did you try and investigate anything about this tender when you got to this report?

In terms of the old tender?

In the security, security 2016/2017 tender?

Correct.

Try to investigate?

Yes.

No, I did not investigate it.

Okay.

Not at all.

Okay. And then in terms of your, of, of dealing with this report, did you ask for any briefing on it, or you were happy with how it is?

The briefing from.

From the person who compiled it, or anyone else who may be involved, or you were happy with the report itself as it stands?

We, we did request, and we did have several conversations. However, we did not receive the written one, which we received at a very late stage, and by the time we've received the written, uh, document, rightfully so, in what you put in an email, we had to already figure out, um, the complexity of APSS. This also comes, the report comes a month after I've already also stumbled across, and, uh, uh, the ADOC. Remember, the ADOC I stopped 12th March 2025. The report came April 2025.

Correct.

And if you look at the report, um, there's not much that is said even about ADOC, if you look at the report itself.

Yes, that, that's why I was going to ask about your satisfaction about the report.

Yes, the report, um, yes, it, it was broad. However, you needed to make sure that you do your, uh, proper assessment of of of of the sites, etc., to get more information. And then also in terms of the resources, um, um, for example, APSS didn't add any vehicles, um, for example. So, uh, the the handover of the staff, all of that, um, and I understand the predicament that, uh, uh, um, the group at Palei was in. She also just was overseeing and and was in the office of the city manager. So we had to obviously make sure that we do our, our assessments and make sure that we, uh, know APSS from start, and whatever measures that we have to put in place, we have to put in place from TMPD site.

Okay, let me perhaps see if I understand it correctly. So you got this report. This is now 9 months after you, APSS was transferred to you. So for that period, let's assume it's some vacuum. Um, we'll, we'll come back to it. When you get this report, am I understanding you correctly to say you then did an assessment whether what it said was correct or not in terms of the sites and everything else?

When Deputy Commissioner Space was appointed, that the assessment already started.

Yes. So we actually started, um, already the assessment. Remember, he was appointed 1st March 2025. Yes, he took from this report. However, most of the things in this report, we already knew, um, through that we have done our own type of, uh, um, figuring out what APSS is about, and, and what we need to know. We did our own, uh, type of, um, you need to start with your organizational structure. You needed to find out, um, where, what, what, what was it intended? You needed to look at the function, you needed to look at what, what is the function of APSS? Are they performing it? All those things were done.

And all these problems about ad hoc, you identified them at the time?

At the time, ADOC deployment, obviously, if you don't bring it to a person's attention, ADOC appointments was not done. There was no procedure, procedure in place. So if there's no procedure in place and no written rule, that is how ADOC, um, deployment came about.

Okay. Thanks. So we'll come back to it.

Can I, can I just follow up? Um, and based on an earlier discussion, you, you said that you have these meetings on a regular basis with your, with your deputy commissioners, and one of those meetings is the budget meeting that happens, I think you said monthly. The budget meeting. Isn't that meeting the forum? And here you must, you must say how it works and what kind of information serves in that budget committee. But sitting where I'm sitting, I would have expected that the big expenditure on on ad hoc services, not only is it big in number, but it's exhausting your your budget, what you've been allocated for security services, that I would have thought it's it's something that comes up in your budget meeting because you are tracking. That's where you discuss how are we doing financially. Is that, is that what happens? And why would you not have picked up in those budget meetings that you have a problem with ADOC services? Even if at that time you don't know it's ADOC services, but you see a depletion of your budget going down very quickly. Should you not have picked it up there, in the in the way that those meetings, monthly meetings work?

Commissioner, in terms of the, if, if you have the budget, and, um, the depletion will only come close to the end. The depletion will not be immediately. So, yes, in that meeting, we, uh, um, watchman services is the, is the name that came up a lot. There was also that we did not sometimes get the entire budget. Maybe you get, um, 500,000, and then by the adjustment budget, you will have to actually, um, apply or write to to request because you're going to run out of funding if you take the amount. Am I talking about the the amount of of of of sites that we are had to deploy at? That is not ad services. That alone, your budget is running already. So you will apply for that. If it comes to the the the the ADOC, um, as I will also come to that, the ADOC services, the, um, where I picked up, yes, the ADOC services is where an email was sent from Deputy Commissioner Lamini to Deputy Commissioner Spiss to say that we, there is 20 additional sites. That sparks me to look at this and say, um, I think I sent three consecutive emails that day to say, number one, 20 additional sites because I'm thinking nobody, as you say correctly so, Commissioner, at that meetings came and said, we have an issue, there were break-ins, for example, or there was vandalism, or brought something to my attention that we required, uh, ADOC, um, deployment. So I wanted to know, if you look at the emails, what is this adult services, and why did you require 20 additional? For me, that was just a red flag. I also wanted to know who approved it, and I requested, uh, Deputy Commissioner Spe to do an investigation in that regard. I also requested him to stop it with immediate effect and to put a process in place on how to manage and how are you requesting, um, adult services. Needless to say, Commissioners, if I might just continue, after I stopped at adult services, and only now in hindsight, I can see a smear campaign started against me. Number one, my qualifications. It was said that I misrepresented my qualifications. Number two, it was said that I received a 450,000 voucher. I don't know from who. A forensic investigation was done, and I welcomed it because I know it's not true. I've requested the the the people that do the forensic investigation not let because metropolis can do certified copies. I'm not going to give you certified copies. I want you to go to the university to go verify my qualifications. My qualifications were verified. Number two, who will give you a 450,000 rand voucher coming from anonymous WhatsApp? That was also showed that, uh, that it is also lies.

In, uh, you mentioned the voucher in paragraph 51. Yes. Of your statement, Commissioner.

And there's no indication who the voucher was from or what it was for?

The, the anonymous WhatsApp text you are referring to. Did it mention who the voucher came from or what it was for?

Commissioner, I don't know what the voucher for supposed to be for, and I've never heard in my life that you can get such a big voucher. So there was no detail, even, um, from the person who made the allegation.

The, the 450,000, what the voucher was for? No, there was no explanation.

No, Commissioner.

Okay. So you say it was an anonymous.

Anonymous WhatsApp, Commissioner.

WhatsApp text. All right.

But please continue with your response to Commissioner Baloy.

Commissioner Baloy, let me, let me, let me tell you what, what I'm struggling with. Um, I'm, I'm struggling. I know that you become aware, and then you give, you become aware, um, that there's a request for further funding, and, and then you, you give the instructions as you did. We've heard that from Commissioner Space. What, what I'm struggling with, or what's not clear to me, is that you become aware because at the point where Deputy Commissioner Lamini says to Commissioner Speech, Deputy Commissioner Speech, we've run out of money, you need to go and ask for more money, that's when you become aware because I think you're copied or something.

But yes, I'm copied. Yes.

You become aware of it. But I'm, I'm concerned about your lack of awareness before that email, when in fact you, on your account, you have these monthly budget meetings, and, and I don't understand them. That's why I was hoping that you would explain how these budget meetings work, what kind of conversations you have, what kind of information is presented to you, to meet a layperson, uh, who, and who's outside of your systems. I, I assume that in a budget meeting, one of the things that you would do is to track your performance, your, your, your financial performance against budget.

Yes.

So I expect that there you would pick up how you are doing with with the expenses, security expenses. So long before, uh, Deputy Commissioner Lamini says to Deputy Commissioner Space, we've run out of money, you need to go and get money. Long before that, you would have picked it up from your meetings and then and then taken action to do the kind of investigation that you say you then instructed to give the kind of instructions that you gave. So I'm struggling with that, that you become aware only late in the day, and yet you seem to have a vehicle of these meetings that should be your alert mechanism. Can you just explain why it is you would not have picked this up from your budget meetings?

Commissioner, in terms of the ADOC, you could only pick up the ADOC if the ADOC, obviously, Commissioner, is done in the correct way. Let me start there. If the ADOC is not done in a way that it's supposed to be, with all that is why we are picking this up now, and it's in, in, in, is in this commission that we pick up that people have done the ADOC, whether they were authorized to do it, whether it was in a manner that they are supposed to do it. So if people are doing things not in the manner that you do it transparent, and people are doing it in a way that they don't want it to be transparent, then, Commissioner Baloy, then you will not immediately pick it up.

Uh, Commissioner Mallaloy.

Is it a case of, in the, in these budget meetings, you, you, there are no reports? There was no report, for example, um, about, here's the budget for ADOC security services that we were allocated, if there is a budget for that.

I don't recall the evidence of commissioners specific.

You don't get a budget for?

For adult services. You get for for security.

Yes. Does it mean that in your budget meetings, there's no specific reports that that delineates that says, this is how we are doing. We are spending, and we are spending it. We've spent so much on ad hoc services? So I understand you saying that you know people procure services, uh, not in a transparent manner, and you know all sorts of games get played there. I, I understand. I can see that part, how it would happen. But you have a bud, a regular budget meeting, and I, I would have thought that in your budget meeting, you would, among other specific items, be told, here's where we are spending, and we are spending so much on ad hoc services, and this is the impact of it on our budget. Are you saying nothing of sorts happens in your meeting?

We, we, there is a presentation that is done, uh, Commissioner Baloy, where, um, we discuss each and every, um, line item, obviously. Um, maybe if I can also just submit that presentation, uh, to, to put it more into context of what was discussed, as as part of my supplementary.

I will appreciate that. If it's, then, then.

You can do that. But let me ask this, maybe finally. As you sit there, are you saying in this, in these meetings, as a specific line item, there would have been, there would not have been discussions, or there was no discussions about adult services and what they were costing you and what they were doing to your budget? Are you saying it didn't happen?

Commissioner, the watchman, um, services is, is always a bone of contention. That was that was the.

Watchmen is ADOC?

Watchman services. No. ADOC is more. I will say watchman services is the budget that I get for where the sites that I deploy. So that will be the outsource.

Okay.

So that will be what we pay. The ADOC services is over and above.

Yes.

So the, we will discuss obviously that, um, um, um, invoices are received for, but I'm talking about where we deploy at the sites.

Yes. Outsource where you are legally deployed. So ADOC is when deployment is taking place, as I explained, and, uh, deployment are taking place, like we've picked up the, let me just use that as an example, the 20 extra. So that didn't go through the budget committee, you, you understand, uh, Commissioner? It never went through the budget committee because if that went through the budget committee, obviously I would have asked questions and say, what is this, and who authorized it, like I've asked on the email. So, um, the ad hoc didn't have also a process in place. You cannot just, uh, uh, put ADOC, and as I already explained, and there's no process in place. So, uh, uh, um, Commissioner Lawyer, as I said, we received APSS, we, uh, we figured out APSS complexity as we go along. I stopped the ADOC the March. I got a report the month after, the April, of things that I've already figured out, or me and, and Deputy Commissioner Bles, that had extra responsibility that we already, uh, had to figure out. So in terms of the ADOC, the ADOC is not like, um, like now it is a before request and not deploy, and then you just bring the invoice.

Okay. All right. We'll leave it for now.

I, I, I want to make sure that I, I understand you, Commissioner. Um, your explanation seems to suggest, um, in particular because of your reference to sites, um, it seems to suggest that, uh, what would be budgeted for would be, um, security guards who would, um, perform services at the sites.

Yes. Let's go.

Which basically suggests that there was no budget allocation at all for ad hoc services.

Yes, Commissioner. If that is what you are saying, I, I find that, uh, a bit strange because my understanding is that there has been, and for a while, in existence, the facility of the provision of ad hoc services, and if that is so, surely that would be budgeted for. Money would not simply be taken from the budget provided for rendering services at sites. I just want to make sure that I understand you correctly when you say there would be no budget whatsoever for ad hoc services. If, if that is your testimony, then, uh, I, I find it a bit strange.

Commissioner, the.

If I'm mistaken.

Tell me to my face that I am mistaken. Commissioner, the budget received is for the outsource security at the sites. So the budget that you receive 1st of July every year is for that. ADOC is when you require over and above security guards. I made an example where I say, for example, if you have a library, for example, you've deployed two there, however, all of a sudden, there's vandalism, there's theft, um, or whatever, or you renovate it, so you put additional now. So that will be, or something happened.

Then you will put ADOC.

Yeah. I get, I get the the examples, um, but my, my point is more this, this is something that the municipality foresees.

So the municipality knows that, um, issues like those will arise. It's not even may arise. They will arise.

And, uh, I suggest to you that this is something that that has been happening. I would even say for as long as municipality and TMPD have been in existence. And if that be so, it, it sounds very strange to me, uh, to be told that despite this foreseeability, there would be no provision in terms of the budget for for for for these occurrences. That sounds strange to me. There, there's just a budget for the provision of security services at sites, and that's it. And then you just take money from that budget when something that is foreseeable does indeed arise, as it should, or as it will. That, that sounds strange to me.

I, I think, Commissioner, um, I think the CFO will be able to actually give you more context in that regard. Yes.

And he will be able to explain to you,

In terms of, um, the allocation in that regard. Yes. And, and, and possibly even the accounting officer, the city manager, if.

If the city manager will be called. Yes. Yes.

Thank you, Commissioner.

This is not meant to put you on the spot, but it's just wanting to understand your testimony. Thank you.

Commissioner, I appreciate. I really appreciate.

Thank you.

It is, it is, it is also letting. I, I came here. I'm at university. I came to learn as well. Commissioner.

Thank you. Instructive.

Thank you.

Thank you, Commissioner.

Yes, Mrs.

Thank you. I, of course, we will reserve some of the questions for the CFO, but I would imagine, and we'll go to it at a later point. Again, it is part of your duties to at least manage the TMPD and the finances. And what the chair is saying is saying, at the very least, or the commissioners, their questions are, at the very least, you ought to foresee what services are required by this institution, that or not institution, by this unit that was transferred to you, and therefore you need to ensure, as part of, as I understand it, management, to foresee that this is the amount and try and track previously how much has been used in order to plan for the future. Um, would you say that has happened, or that happened with adult services for this contract?

You receive the budget of, um, watchman services. You don't receive additional, um, and then if, if you require more, then you obviously, you, um, have to put in documentation, especially when it comes to the adjustment budget. So the, the, that budget, we receive. We do not have influence over that budget. That budget, you just receive the budget. I do not request the amount of budget. That is a budget that you receive from the group financial services, which is, um, obviously the responsibility of the CFO. So if I can, if I can answer like that.

Okay. Thank you. And it, it would still be part of your duties as a senior manager to at least prevent, um, mismanagement, irregular expenditure, and wasteful expenditure, so to speak.

Okay.

Yes, that is part of my duties.

Thank you. Even on the the question of the budget allocation on which you say that TMPD has no no input. There's a lot wrong with that as well, if, if indeed that's the position, because the, the people who do the allocation, they may not necessarily have an intimate knowledge of what you actually require in terms of funds. So it, it seems to make practical sense to me that there should be an input by the various sections/departments within Swan.

Of course, the inputs do not necessarily mean that you will get what you indicated you want.

So that's something else.

Um, but not having an input at all, um, there's a lot wrong with it.

No, Commissioner, we do have input into, we all have input, all the different departments. You do put your request.

Oh, then I.

What I was trying to say is that I do not have control over that eventually what you get, or which is exactly the point I was making.

Yes.

So, no, you are correct.

No, maybe I didn't bring it across.

Yeah. Yeah. You went to the tail end.

Yes. But no, we do have, we have regular meetings, um, several meetings where you obviously each one must do their presentation.

You will have to come there and explain. It's not just, it's a very intense meeting.

No, thank you.

No, we definitely have have that in.

That makes perfect sense. Thank you very much. Thank you, chair. I see that it is a minute to one. Perhaps it looks like I, I thought we are left with a few pages and I thought we could finish, but let's take the lunch adjournment and resume at 2 p.m. Let's adjourn.

Thank you, Chair. Your statement. We were at, uh, paragraph, I think 43, where to start with paragraph 43. Um, I think we had touched a bit, uh, just at a high level, but I'd like us to start with it, uh, fresh, just to refresh ourselves. Thank you. Uh, thank you. Um, before I start, I just reflected, uh, um, Commissioner Baloy. Um, the APS wasn't insourced when it moved over to the city manager's office. It was just changed in management. I don't know if, if, if it, uh, if I understood it correctly that it said it was insourced when it moved to the office of the city manager. It was actually just a movement of management, not insourced.

Okay.

So I just wanted to correct that if it maybe is confusing.

Okay. All right.

Thank you. So thank you so much, Commissioners, and Chair Chairperson, if I can start, I'll just read. I did touch on on on on on this paragraph as well as the next one, but I just would like to read it into record. Uh, thank you, Chairperson. Request for additional funding. I initially became aware of a request for additional funding or an extension of the existing budget relating to the additional sites through emails from Deputy Commissioner Lamini to Deputy Commissioner Revo Space on 12th March 2025. This email from Deputy Commissioner Lamini stated that the deployment of the ADOC security guards had grown exponentially and indicated that an extra 37 sites were added in January 2025 with a further six sites added in February 2025. In total, it came to 43 sites. I was copied in this email and notily it attaches invoices for ADOC services for January and February 2025. That must also just be corrected to Commissioners. I see is 2026. It should be 2025. A copy of this email is attached hereto, marked as YF6. Upon receiving this communication, I became aware of the cost and the fact that there was no clarity of the procurement of this ADOC security services. It was also not apparent that there was a proper procedure in place. I immediately instructed Deputy Commissioner Spiss to stop the adoc security services as it was not clear how it came about and it may lead to order queries and greatly affect the City of Chuani as a whole due to this unexplained and unauthorized expenditure. I also instructed Deputy Commissioner Spiss to initiate a new control measure specifically related to the deployment of adult guards and to launch an investigation in this regard that must lead to consequence management. This was duly implemented as seen by the email from Deputy Commissioner SP marked as annexer YF7. As a result of this action, a new procedure was or process was created wherein it would be required for any department that seeks any adoc security to complete an application form for motivation and commitment that their budget and their funding may be used after APS conducted a security risk assessment that warrants the deployment of additional guards. It is a prerequisite for the form to be signed off by the respective requesting departments, group heads, and the cluster head. I later learned from Deputy Commissioner Bles that the request for additional funding emanates from a message received from this Chief Financial Officer, Mr. Garrett Mani, on the 25th of February 2025, as per the attached WhatsApp screenshot marked as annexer YF8. It would seem that the rising cost largely emanated from the unauthorized and irregular deployment of ADOC security services by Inspector Aya Piri. He had no authority to issue such directives. Deputy Commissioner Spiss has already come before the commission, and I believe he has provided the relevant context.

Commissioner, can, can you stop there? I want to get clarity from you because the email which you refer to as Y7 in your statement is on page 85 of the same bundle, and I could be wrong here, so you will correct me if I'm wrong. I had understood Commissioner Specs evidence to be that when he sent this email, it was ignored, and his subordinate said to him, "Please put that in a formal letter, not in an email. If it's in an email, I'm not going to implement." And that's what caused, uh, issues. And he needed to be disciplined for that. Is that correct? Is that your understanding? Because your statement seems to suggest that the process was implemented, and proof of that is this email where I had understood Commissioner Speech to be saying his email was ignored, and when he inquired why it was ignored, he was told by his subordinate that he has to put that instruction in a formal letter, not in an email. And the evidence leaders will will assist me here, that's that's just my recollection of what the evidence was. If you remember it differently, you.

can tell us that you remember it differently.

Commissioner Kumalo, if a subordinate is giving him that, I'm I'm expecting that he should have charged the subordinate for insubordination.

But but what I don't expect is for you to come to the commission and say this was duly implemented as seen in the email. Commissioner, what I want to say is that deputy commissioner Spe and I've seen this email now deputy commissioner Spe when I've um given him the instruction he started with it immediately. So I also now see here by um YF7 it's the email of um deputy commissioner speaks to uh the deputy director Malati uh are we on 84 commissioner uh YF7 am I correct? Yes. Why? Why seven is on page 85? this um 85 this uh evidence here is the remember he responded in an email to me and then that he's going to implement I speak under correction or it was implemented this one that you are referring to now commissioner in terms of that um I have not received that in that information that you have you have now given me in writing that that is the case commissioner uh Kumalo.

Okay. If if you don't have that information, then may maybe it's fine. But that that was my recollection of uh Commissioner Spie's evidence.

Understood. Uh Commissioner Kumal. So it may be something that you need to follow up. Yes, I will. We cannot rely on your assurance if that assurance is not factual.

No, definitely Commissioner. And then I expect him if a subordinate is telling him that that he should have taken action against that subordinate uh commissioner. So I I will

I understood that he did eventually but the initial reaction was that there was resistance to his uh to his email. So maybe we can leave that there for now.

But I will still follow up Commissioner Kumalo just for my for my own sanity. Thank you, Commissioner.

I think I'm number 49.

Sorry. While we are on the point, uh I think in the next section you deal with uh Inspector Perry. So the question I'm going to ask is those letters when commissioner space showed us the letters there were at least two of them >> that were not signed by commissioner piri. They were signed by one person or two other people >> and I would need to know why action is only taken against piri and not those two other people.

So if you can just anticipate that and maybe deal with it as well. Commissioner Romelo Commissioner I've as I said we've launched the investigation um we are still busy with um um investigation is this now over this Easter period also I've also wrote to the commission uh requesting certain information as well to the secret secretariat of the commission and I will follow up in that regard but commission I um I can really assure you uh it will not just be um one person any person that's implicated even if it takes for us a day or two or a week or two to come to uh to that we we will obviously make sure that if a person was involved in in in matters that they shouldn't have as I said consequence management will be implemented I can promise you that

because even people who process the payments remember there's the request to the security company for ad hoc services and it comes from inspector period now when invoices come in and people processed all payments. Do they not care that Piri was not authorized to issue those instructions? Why do they authorize payments running into millions, tens if not hundreds of millions when the person who issued the ad hoc instructions was not authorized to do so? Commissioner Kumalo, you're 100% we have already we know who processed it. We have the names of of the people that from the whole food chain. I can guarantee you we are busy with that um investigation. We know exactly I've requested uh through internal affairs um the authorization I I requested who stamped it. I requested based on what so yes I can guarantee you commissioner Kumalu we are busy and then um it is not the first or the second or the third person that we are dealing with. I promise you we are really looking at it thoroughly and as we look into it commissioner Kumalo we also look into the process it's no use we are dealing with the people that has done this but the process we need to look at and we need to correct the process so we are doing u both of that uh commissioner kumalo I can promise you that

commissioner can can I think just to exploit the discussion about piriing um please turn to page 98 of the file you have in front of you. File one >> 98.

Correct. This is as you suggest part of the corrective measures. Correct.

Give me a minute. I'm pulling them out. Uh, that's correct.

Correct. Oh, let me wait for commissioners.

I I have a different 98.

Apologies.

Okay. I'll I'll give you my file when we finish and see if what needs to be corrected. Uh my 98 is a document that starts at page 96 and it's a memorandum tenders to be advertised.

Do you have the same commission?

No no commissioner commissioner I have the actually the suspension in the meantime. Apologies Commissioner Kumar will resolve this issue.

Thank you. You will see that >> I'm still a >> um >> till further notice.

Apologies commissioners. Um at page 98 is a letter a letter signed by yourself. Notice of intention to suspend Piri. Correct.

That's correct.

And at the bottom there is your signature.

Correct.

That's correct.

Right. And we know that the emails about um stopping ad hoc services or security services happened or the concern rather on 12th March 2025. Correct.

That's correct. Would you explain why it takes a year to discipline Kiring? Commissioners, allow me just to just explain um remember I've requested um Commissioner Spiss to investigate. Then I think by June 2025, he sent it to the internal city's um car department which then also responded that there is um in terms of what they've read that he can be disciplined. Then we sent it to the internal affairs department of TMPD to do a thorough investigation in that regard. Um, in terms of the TMPD, they then couldn't get certain information because we do not have access to to certain information. It was then um um sent to deputy commissioner um Lamini I think 30th of July and then uh deputy commissioner Dlamini obviously um did not send that documents further bearing in mind he's responsible for internal affairs in the meantime deputy commissioner Spiss was meeting with uh the walks as well as um Ibrief gift me uh um other departments um he met with them Febru um July August, September and October. They were then busy with the process uh obviously um to make sure that they get more evidence. Uh for that moment we did not want to disturb the process. Then deputy commissioner Spiss followed up in terms of um what happened to the document and then obviously we've learned that um Brigadeier Danny Bernard did forward it to the head of that department which is deputy commissioner Lamini and then um we found out then uh you know the documents was there by him and then obviously upon finding that out we um put medicine in place and then obviously um the systems and we made sure then that um um in terms of other information that also came to our attention that we had then enough also to do what I um pre- suspension and then suspension in that regard the investigation we haven't received the feedback obviously from the hawks back and the other department that we that was busy with a parallel um investigation um however However, we the process has been been started and um we will now run with the process. Advocacy Kakan just to be fair to Commissioner Faroh, if you can go to file 8. This is what I was referring to. Uh Commissioner's PC statement starts on page 37 of that file. Apologies, commissioner. Which page?

Uh 49.

49.

So his statement starts on 37.

Okay.

But if you go to page 12 of it, maybe on page 48.

Are you there?

I am there. You see the email he refers to is paragraph 41. That's the same email you were referring to. Uh and then it continues. And then if you look at page 49 on paragraph 46 he says during the following months it was mentioned at monthly budget meetings that there were still payments of ad hoc guards as more invoices were submitted by one specific service provider goois 85. I then issued a written instruction on 24th June 2025,

okay,

to stop the deployment of ad hoc services and made clear that no more will be allowed beyond 1 July 2025. Do you see that? So it was not implemented in March. It was only implemented

in July

in July because he had been told that he can't do it by an email. There must be a written letter issued. So that's how the process uh unfolded.

Thank you, Commissioner.

Okay.

Thank you.

Thank you, Commissioner. I will I will follow up on that. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you, Commissioner. I I I'm I'm going to press on this point a bit and and because this is the these are the problems that we see. What we have is a is a serious issue of someone who essentially causes about 13 million good loss, but it takes a year to actually take action against them. What it would mean is that every time that he's at the office, apart from what we we you are able to find out, he's a he's a risk or he exposes the municipality or the the the the TMPD. Would you accept that? And I I'm truly I'm not convinced of that there were these investigations for over a year unless you can accept that it was truly an oversight of some sort on your part or Commissioner Sp's part. I cannot understand why it would take 12 months literally to discipline him um for something so obvious.

I cannot accept that. Um I just explained that it is not that easy. It's a complex investigation in terms of you need to look at the invoices. You need to um make sure uh uh that you have all the evidence as well. Um the same with any investigation. If you're going to take the person um are you going to suspend the person and keep the person 12 months at home? The person is not in in in in direct doing this uh or he's not doing this anymore. So he he doesn't have control over doing that. So we had to I had to also make sure if we want to um that is um departments that is investigating and watching I had to make sure that we do that as well. So at the moment as I said that we feel that we have now um over and above even what we have we have more than to actually go ahead with the with the case as well and as I said we are still waiting on other departments but we can't wait on them uh rightfully so if it's any criminal matter we cannot wait for the criminal uh investigation to conclude in order for us not to do departmental in terms of the the one what that I will uh agree with is the one in terms of that it was emailed already on the 30th of July um to to the head of the department and there should have been more engagement from the head although deputy commissioner Spiss has done his part by following up on a monthly basis he even engaged with the external uh investigators on a monthly basis so I cannot accept the deputy commissioner's piece failed in his in that regard however However, I I'm also looking at the time frame. I'm looking at the 30th of July that it was mailed to um um um the head of that unit. And I'm also looking at the bigger picture. So, the investigations the more it's the same like it's here. The more you touch one thing, you you another thing comes up. So, the investigation is vast. And as I said, we've also rightfully so, as the chairperson has said, we also looking at other uh people in the food chain that was involved in this. It's not only the one person. So the more we investigate and we ask questions, the more names are popping up. So I'm requesting that we do the investigation. It is at a very sensitive point at this moment. And um um I'm even prepared to give the outcome and um how far we came once we have now uh do the investigation into all the others as well and also the consequence management. I think commissioner it it seems that the from the statement of of deputy commissioner space it it does seem uh that there may have been movement it's speed movement because if you look at paragraph 47 commissioner Kumalo referred you to 46 at 47 yes uh this is where commissioner speed says he received an email from goobies Yes.

And then that was on the 26th of June 25.

And then if you read and then in 48 he becomes aware that Piri is the one that issues issued those letters and then you read on the steps that he took

and then you get to 52 paragraph 52.

Yes, I'm there.

And then it says on 30 Jul July >> Oh, internal audit completed the reports. This is about a month later and request to deputy lamini lamini and it seems uh deputy commissioner lamin is the one that sat with the report from the 30th of July the way I read this paragraph until the 10th of March 2026. Is that your understanding as well of what happened? Uh uh thank you Commissioner Baloy. That is the 30th of June July that I referred to that um Brigadier Manarees has forwarded to the head which is uh you are 100% deputy chief um Damini. I'm also looking at that in in that regard.

Yeah. Um that is what I said that allow me to investigate and um um the reason why uh uh uh is it because um with um the person that we are supposed to discipline that other things will come out

the so so allow me because we are really advanced at the states in this regard. I'm talking about the internal investigation not the one with the with with with the external ones. So I'm asking allow me just to complete I am prepared to give the feedback in in this regard that is also one of the things I'm looking commissioner you are 100%.

Yes. Well I was going to suggest that uh perhaps it is for deputy commissioner lamini when he comes to testify uh to explain to Mr. Kakane why from the 30th of July 2025 he sat with this report until the 10th of March 2026

and immediately when I received it on the very same day I action it.

Yes. Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you, Commissioner. Please proceed. It would seem that the rising cause lights emanated from unauthorized. I think I've I've I've read that 48. Am I correct? Uh commissioners, uh

please read it again.

You want me to read it again?

Yes.

Okay, I'll do that. It will seem that the rising cost largely emanated from unauthorized and irregular deployment of adoc security services by Inspector Apiri. He had no authority to issue such directives. Deputy Commissioner Spiss has already come before the commission and I believe he has provided the relevant context. It is clear that the large beneficiary of the irregular deployment is an entity called Gubies 85 Security Solutions PTY LTD to the tune of about or almost 14 million rand. I was not particularly aware of the role of Deputy Commissioner Lamini and Chief Financial Officer Mr. Garrett Mani. In all of this, I took and trusted them as dedicated officials. I placed reliance on their advisers and they had never given me any reason to doubt or suspect them. I must say I was taken aback by what came also out of this commission then if I can go to the aftermath.

Apologies just to clarify at 48 when when did you learn that Mr. Piri was not allowed or authorized to issue the directives or notice of deployment.

He is not not at this level. And

then when did you understand that?

When did I understand

that he's not authorized?

When the deputy commissioner speaks obviously has done his um and when he briefed me in terms of who has authorized this and then I think it's also in his statement.

Okay. Thank you. Please proceed.

Aftermath of stopping adoc services. I commissioners, I did touch on this, but I just wanted to read it into record as well. Upon my decision to stop the funds, I faced a smear campaign that questioned my qualifications and acceptance of a 45,000 rand voucher. I do not understand at that point.

450,000

450,000 rand. Yes, Commissioner. I did not understand at that moment but in hindsight I am of the opinion it stems from that decision of mine to stop the ado uh deployment. I stood by my decision as I was doing it for the greater benefit of the city and TMPD. I'm referring to page um 4 YF9. I later learned of the irregularities in the procurement and payment for the security services. Deputy Commissioner Spe has already come before the commission and I believe he has provided the relevant context. I have since taken measures to suspend inspector Alpiri who issued the further deployment letters as seen by annexer YF10. In addition to this consequent management is being implemented. Deputy Commissioner Damin is also currently on suspension. allegations which derive from this commission are being thoroughly also investigated and therefore I cannot elaborate further here in in order to protect the incredity of these investigations as I already alluded to and this is not only from the commission this is just added there's also as I said what I discovered what we discovered in terms of the investigation now why are you only looking at further deployment letters why are you not auditing past deployment letters because it looks like your scope is narrow here. If you are only uh looking at somebody who issued further deployment letters, this suggests that those that were issued before the decision, you you ignoring those.

We did we did not find any other than the the two, but we are also looking historically and we are looking at that with the internal affairs. They are looking at historically and they're looking at we want the scope to be as wide as possible. uh Commissioner Kumalo even if we must go back and really come to the bottom of this we are really going back uh uh really the information that we are requiring uh um some is difficult to uh acquire however, we are not going to back down

because it looks

we are not going to back down

it looks like there was no accountability at least in terms of as I understand it the way this ad hoc deployments work uh these were emergency services So if you need emergency guarding services at a water plant or at a facility of the city, there would be these letters that are issued. But there doesn't seem to be uh any monitoring of service levels to determine whether what Goobis tells you. If Gooby says, for example, we employed 13 security guards at this reservoir, it doesn't seem like anybody checked that that was in fact the case, that it was in fact 13 guards at this price per guard. And I mean, this is public funds. people people just approved invoices without checking service levels without uh you know enforcing if if if there were breaches of some of these service levels. There were no consequences because it looks like these companies continued providing services. In fact to this day they continue to provide services just not additional uh ad hoc services. Commissioner um if you go as far back you will find that yes that is why I said the moment um it was handed over uh find out the complexity of complexity of this put measures in place that is ongoing so you are correct in the past I couldn't find that there's a meas in place in terms of um checking up and making sure contracted services that where you deploy you what do you what you must have uniform you must have this equipment are you there are is it the right amount of staff and then the level is the A grade B grade that that is one of the things that we also are checking to make sure surprise visit that at any given time the guards that is supposed to be in terms of the service level agreement are there and penalty clauses must be implemented The penalty clauses is is very important. So if you found it is against the SLA, you need to activate the penalty clause that is in the SLA. So commissioner Kumali, you are correct. Those were some of the things that we found that was lagging and that we correcting in terms of moving forward. Thank you. Ju just before we move to the next section, you are saying that you are still investigating all of these things internally. Correct.

Correct. And obviously it would seem that until such time you finish the investigation, you wouldn't know how far the rot goes if we to call it a rot.

Correct.

It is not such a big section.

Okay.

It's not a big section that is dealing with the matter. So

So the investigations are going to be concluded.

Definitely. Definitely. It's not a big section. So um we in the meantime has put measures in place also mitigating and we're not waiting for the investigation to be concluded. So um we are busy uh um also putting the as I said it runs par parallel but it's not a big section and we know exactly who and then we are really at the end of this investigation in terms of bringing the others to book as well.

Thank you commissioners. I think it's for just so that we follow the the the correspondence around the stoppage of these ad hoc services so that we just in the interest of time can I refer you to file three.

Yes, I have it. Okay.

I got it. It

page

page uh 337 337

33 right at the beginning. at the beginning. Um, if you go I think with the sequence of emails, you go to 343.

Is it just is it file three?

File three. Yes.

On page

3 43. Um, or starting from 342 at the bottom.

I'm starting by 657.

Yes. 53.

So

yes, four is 65. What is that? He's fric. 342 at the bottom. That's an email. Mr. Farah, are you there?

35 342

342 at the bottom.

Yes, I'm there.

I'm just trying to make sure we all follow. So, this is the the email from Umashi Damini to Commissioner Rivos, please. COPing amongst others yourself, Deputy Commissioner Bles and somewhere in the bottom um Chugu Malachi. And then in that email, this is where this this is where he's asking essentially that we there must be um more funding.

Yes.

And he explains that there's an increased usage of ad hoc services. And then at page 342, the response from Commissioner SP is to ask 3 minutes later who approved and the or mandated the ad hoc services. Correct.

That's correct.

Correct. And you were still copied in that. There's absolutely no trick with what I'm doing. It's just so that we follow that discussion we were having because I think we got broken somehow in understanding the sequence at page 341. That's at the bottom. That's your email. Can I take it? COP means chief of police.

Commissioner of police.

Okay. Commissioner of police. Um at the bottom you then write to Umashi Lamini and Commissioner SP and you say you actually you express um shock about that there's 30 additional sites just for January and you ask who approved this and you ask Commissioner Bles. Can you just maybe explain that to us perhaps in the understanding of ad oxides as the debate has been had?

You want me to explain the email?

Correct. You're shocked around this thing so that we just follow as we go.

It took me 7 minutes to to to respond to this email uh what I read in the two emails. I've then wanted to know the 30 additional sites only for January 2025. I see there's four exclamation marks. And then who approved this? The reason why I said deputy commissioner Bles remember he was still January and February overseeing um ABSS. Deputy commissioners this only started 1st of March. Then I wanted to know did he approved it? DC Bles then I said I'm not signing of any documentation or requesting additional funds. that moment I was in Mako and I said uh I'm currently in Mako I'm not going to entertain this this is peace please launch investigation in this regard because he was appointed the first this is 11 days after he was appointed then I also then again responded added to the below email this behavior must stop as it will cause audit queries which will not only affect the department but the coot as a whole I'm not going to request additional budget for unauthorized adox site I will request an investigation and consequence management. Two reports must be drafted. One and that is obviously after invest the authorized adoc sites and then also the unauthorized authorized ones is are easy because we aware of it. Then I al again a few minutes after that sent another mail to say deputy commissioners please please stop any adult deployment until the correct procedure determined by you have been implemented bearing in mind there is no additional funding already. Then I actually uh Commissioner Kumalo I actually uh uh referred to this this email and and further to the ADOC deployment that is a respond from Revo SPI obviously to Malati uh C see deployment cease deployment if guards stop the deployment of all adult guards as with effect tomorrow morning. That is why I this was actually the the email that I referred to Commissioner Kumalo where he then immediately you see that is on the 12 just uh uh a few minutes after I send the email uh actually four minutes that he actually gave that instruction. The one that uh commissioner that you you alluded to that he he gave him that lip. I was not not aware of that because that will be between him and him and and and and his um immediate deputy commissioner. But as I said I want to look into that as well. So that formal letter is on 3:47.

Yes, Commissioner.

And the point was that the the 12th March email was ignored. So Malachi ignored it, did not implement it. Reasons were given that it can be in an email. It has to be uh in a formal letter and that formal letter you see followed 3 months later.

Yeah.

3 and 1/2 months later and it's on page 347.

I I do see that commissioner and as I said I I want to look into that as well. Thank you commissioner.

Perhaps it would be unfair to ask you. Um it it should have been an issue that commissioner SP would have explained.

Yes.

If you say immediate

Yes.

Why does it take another two or three months?

No, I'm going to look into that definitely.

Um to then action that.

Yes.

Um because these are the things we just say it's going to take time and then

I think Commissioner Kumar was saying then you know it's public funds that are being used.

Oh definitely.

Correct. Jessica can we've learned in this commission that immediately does not mean immediate

at least commissioner my immediate is immediate but um be rest assured I'm going to look into all of this because that was my instruction to everyone I will look into that definitely I expect if I give instruction everybody must follow it

thank you commissioner Kumalo I was restraining myself from highlighting immediately Um, and then if you go to page 338,

still the same file.

Same file. Yes. Uh, this is just the last um point.

Let's give the page again.

338.

338. And then

now this is what comes under cover this email. Correct.

Yes. Yes. Yes. And when you see it, and apologies for jumping around, when you see it, you see two things. Um, what you see is that there's in this is in January, so it's alone.

Yes.

You've got Troutic Protection Services that has ad hoc sites.

Yes. Then we have Moalahadi security.

Yes.

And then we've got goois 85 solutions security.

That's correct.

Which has sites according to this up to 37.

That's correct.

Which total 14 million. And obviously we understand that there would have been 22 companies or service providers.

Just at the time did it strike you that Gopus seems to have been this efficient or favored

that is part of the investigation

now at the time. Yeah, definitely. When I when I saw it, definitely definitely.

And then just to follow up um with the investigation, how would it cover whether actually the invoices or the actual deployments? If they say they had two guns, how would how would we know that they actually had two guns?

Um or they just did not have anyone inside.

Exactly. Is that part of your in

that is definitely part of my investigation to um as I said what is the reasoning for 20 additional so we are looking at it what is the reasoning for that where were they attendance everything we're looking into we definitely looking into all of those

and so would I be then be correct or maybe I'm wrong to say that previously there there wasn't a method to double check that perhaps or was there

they they have the personnel that must do that um checks

also there are people

yeah they there is people that must do the checks um contract services that must do the checks to see does it you as I said uh also ADOC um let me not use ADOC surprise visit just to see also in terms I've explained it in terms of the SLA you must have the SLA with The SL is very detailed to see if you are in uniform, the equipment that you must have, the type of guard that you must have, also the amount of guards that you must have there because we are aware that you must maybe have five but then you deploy two. So we are aware of that. So you have that component that must check on that.

Okay.

Yes. Nothing.

Before you leave this page, uh, Commissioner Far, just so that it doesn't look like this commission is picking on Gooby Security for whatever reason, I I can't remember where I read this and you you don't have to give us a detailed answer now, but I just need clarity on the three entities that we see on page 338. through that.

Are you also investigating whether or not any of those entities are owned by city officials?

We're looking at everything, Commissioner Kumar,

because in one of the documents I have seen, I cannot remember which one. Uh there was an allegation made that the the first one there Triotic is is owned by city officials as in city of Swani officials. That may or may not be true but my question is simply whether you are investigating that as well.

And then uh commissioner um we will do our investigation in terms of obviously the alloc allocation etc. when the CFO comes um in ter they have all the information of that security company um I would prefer that you also pose that question to the CFO. I would really prefer that. But in terms of our investigation, we obviously looking also at at um um um you have the 22 companies and then we look at the um how regular and how many and then that will also be part of our questions. Definitely.

Thank you.

Definitely. Uh, Commissioner Kumalo,

but I thought Commissioner Kumalo was asking, does your investigation include investigating ownership of these companies that are on your panel? Obviously we we are looking into all of that because we we as you said I've read in the supply chain management policy when I started and it says you must not uh uh one of it says that you must not conflict of interest must be so we all we we taking the supply chain management policy and see was there any contravention also from from the site and and so that we can have a more detailed type of investigation as I said we don't want to we we are not only zooming coming in if if we are one by one now consequence manage it must it doesn't mean we are just dealing with a one person we have to now start from A and ended C we have to get it right so yes uh commissioner Baloy we are looking into every single thing I can promise you that

just to assist commissioner Kumalo I think I think the it has been in the media if I may refer you Just out of interest on that choic um that's file six page 548. It's all chs that was shared. Yes. Thank you so much. Thank you. on 549. That's Yeah.

Yes. That's that's what I just wanted to locate uh your understanding perhaps. Um I I didn't intend to at least go through this at this point in time. Thank you.

Yes.

Please put that file away. Yes.

Yes. Okay. Could you please then continue uh from page 55 of your statement?

Sorry. We put away file three.

Yes. I will then continue with TMPD01 2024 stroke 2025 land invasion tender TMPD01 2024 2025 relates to the procurement of services for the monitoring and prevention of illegal land and building occupation as well as the demolition of any illegal structures. The appointment will be for 3 years on and an as and when required basis meaning only when there is land invasion. So you will and then those that must patrol um to prevent the land invasion. It will obviously be the hotspots. I attach a copy of the invitation to the bit marked as YF11. The tender advertisement request we call it a TAR or T was signed off by me on the 27th of May 2024. I then appointed Brigadier Cipu Sebastian Nomao and Brigadier J. Mabunda as a departmental representatives at the bit evaluation committee BAC. The reason why I appointed Brigadier um NOMO, he was that time acting deputy commissioner of specialized services and Brigadier Babunda is the head of land invasion.

Commissioner Faru, you confusing me now. When I asked you this earlier, you said only the city manager can make this appointments. Now you are saying to us I appointed these people as representatives to the BC.

This of this is in terms of the T but what's the difference? The T is the tender advertisement request they that I this is one page that I sign off. So in terms of this it should be the uh the city manager. Yes.

you are confusing me. Who who appoints members of the BEC? Remember that was my earlier question and you said no it can be you or the CFO is the city manager. Does this not suggest that you appointed

or does it mean nominate

nominate?

You nominate and then the city manager appoints approves.

Commissioner Kumalo nominate. Yes.

Thank you Commissioner. the tender procurement process. Um, I will just correct that, Commissioner Kumalo. The tender procurement process was successfully concluded and ultimately eight biders were awarded a tender. Then the tender process was also subjected to property. Property review is done by group audit and risk. They check that the process was followed correctly in appointing these eight companies. I do not know how the tender was evaluated. However, Brigadier Cipu numer will then also come before this committee so that he can just also put it more into context. He will only be be giving evidence in terms of that entire process. I do not know how the tender was evaluated and he will also assist he he assisted with technical expertise on behalf of TMPD and he will be able to give more context in this regard once he appears before the commission. Concluding remarks. In conclusion, I wish to reiterate that my tenure as commissioner to the principles of integrity as well as transparency and the rule of law. Since my appointment, I have endeavored to ensure that the TMPD operates not only as an efficient and effective law enforcement agency, but also as a responsible organ of state that adheres strictly to the procurement frameworks set out in the constitution and the MFMA. I have a specific duty to report corruption under section 34 of the prevention and combating of corrupt activities act 2004. And I'm not only doing it because if I fail I it could result in a 10-year prison sentence. I do it because you that is the right thing to do. The independent police investigative directorate also known as IP in terms of the IP act 2011 is broader. Section 29 requires all SAPs members and commissioners. We are appointed under the SAPS act 68 of 1995 to notify IP immediately after becoming aware of graft or other cases falling within IP's mandate. Contravenous carry also up to two years imprisonment. Have you have you have you reported any matters to IP?

We we going to do that uh commission. I promise you we as I said the our investigation we already reported to other organs of state as I said um we are going to in when the investigation is eventually um concluded. We are going to make sure any contravention that was there in terms of any law act we will report it and report it to the national organ of state. What we've picked up commissioner is if if you start charging people they resign and then they just go to somewhere else and then everybody just leave the case and nothing comes of it because the person has left the employee of whatever municipality. We are not going to allow that. We will still pursue any other contravention and any act. That is what I given to my investigating um head to do that is now acting um deputy commissioner Danny Manar.

Yes. I think my my question is more general uh than than specific. I think in your testimony earlier in the day um you you you said that you've had cases of members of TMPD being arrested for different things. Um and one of the examples you gave was bribery for example. And so my question it being general is do you have any cases not not necessarily arising from this procurement matters that we are concerned with now but do you have any pending matters that have been reported to to IP and that IPD is handling on in respect of the TMPD? Definitely commissioner. We also have a meeting a quarterly meeting with IP.

Yes.

And uh as um I didn't actually answer Commissioner Kumalu when you asked do we implement the recommendations. Yes, we do.

Yes, we do.

You you offered to deal with it in a sub

but I just wanted to say yes all the recommendations coming from IP they I also get the reports and I make sure that is one of the things that I monitor to make sure that we implement it. So, and I'm I'm assuming in your supplementary you can give us the statistics. I'll do that. You can say for example over the past 3 years. Definitely

there were this number of IP recommendations all of them were implemented. Those that were not implemented was the reason.

May I correct Commission? Can I have it from the 1st of October 2023 that was under my

Yes.

Thank you so much Commissioner Kumalo. You are so kind.

Thank you,

Commissioner. you you rightly um point out or lament

yes

that people resign yes

and then the then that's the end of that matter but but isn't the solution to that that matters must be reported to the se

definitely

as as I've understood it uh with eur in respect of echur in similar cases it's that complaints and I think commissioner spee as he then was

yes

um referred matters to the seps and then those matters were then referred to IPED from the seps they go to iPad isn't that what should be the practice in fact the way to circumvent people escaping uh criminal prosecution or or consequences for what is effectively criminal conduct that complaints should be lodged with a saps and that way a person resigns they get out of the clause of the iPad but they remain under police under police jurisdiction. Have you have Have you considered

You are 100% Commissioner Baloy. Um as I alluded when I did my background I'm also the chair of the of the national commissioners forum of the country. We even took that matter up at the national level. We don't only want it to happen at uh TMPD. What we also do, we dregister you as a as a as a as a metrop police officer or more a traffic officer so that you can't also jump to go from one department and we also looking at the database that we can also share that information. So you are correct and also we said we don't want uh to wait on the South African police service and iPad or whoever is investigating to give us a feedback. We need to follow up and if we see that it stays too long with a person, you need to you you can follow up with a senior you need to we need to start following up and not leave it and say I'm waiting on iPad. I'm waiting on the South African police service. We need to trace our case numbers and we need to trace our our cases that we report. So that is what we as the commissioners of the country also want to what busy with actually and we're looking at standardizing it on a on a national level.

Thank you. Thank you commissioner. Now, uh, paragraph 61. In my commitment, I have taken proactive steps, including the instruction of new control measures to mitigate risk of irregular expenditure and to safeguard the city's resources. Given what I've learned, I believe it is important that we continue to pay close attention to procurement processes and internal interferences in the man manipulation on ongoing process within the TMPD. That must also be done without interference from the person that maybe wants to claim I'm monitoring, but then you interfere as well. I remain fully committed to assisting this commission in its mandate. I hope that the information and documentation provided in the statement supplemented by the testimony of deputy commissioners and officials I have designated and the supplementary homework that I've received. I'm just adding that Commissioner Kumalo, my homework that I received will provide the necessary clarity on the matters under inquiry. I would also like to highlight to the commission to assist in protecting those that expose fraud and corruption and any form of irregularities because of what I have experienced. One becomes a target as soon as you expose corrupt activities. And I'm sure after I've appeared in front of this commission, it will not stop. However, commissioners, I will do this over and over again. I will also want to make use of this opportunity to thank the the commissioners and all the evidence leaders and everybody behind the scenes. If it was so much intense for me in terms of making sure that you give your state your statement is there and your evidence and making sure you meet regularly with the evidence leader. I really can not even imagine how must it be for the commissioners that sits here on a daily basis. I really want from my side to thank you for what you are doing for the country and for the province province of Haeng and I wish that this can be rolled out after to all the municipalities within the borders of South Africa. Thank you commissioners for the opportunity that I could have given be a witness in front of this commission and also have given some clarity and also some information in terms of what was in the statement and then also the evidence that was attached. Thank you commissioners.

Thank you. Thank thank you. I think we might have missed the the bold a bit. Um I think we had started with that we'll let Commissioner Faroh go through her statements uh and then be not as interruptive but I think we we took some time interrupting.

Um in the interest of time there are areas that I would like to probe with. Um I will not go to too much detail in the interest of time.

Um

um Commissioner um thank you for um your remarks. Um I just want to say that uh what is uh bothersome is uh that in many instances starting with subs and now um there has been a lot of movement by the institutions concerned the action being taken against officials. Um but what's bothersome about that is that for what has been diverged at this commission, it seems that it would have

been business as usual. That is quite bothersome. I'm not necessarily directing this at you but uh at the institutions concerned and uh we are talking what this is only subsuri and subs you know only at the top top level at the level of generals. Yes, there may be an odd brigadeier and so on here and there. So that's a very small window, if I may call it, both at subs and also nationally in terms of only a guru only.

So it's quite bothersome because um these institutions cannot possibly be outliers. One believes that uh what we see is replicated throughout the country. That's quite bothersome. But thank you. Yes, Mrs. Kakani.

Mrs. Skakani, sorry. Uh, we kept interrupting. So, I've almost exhausted all my questions. I only have one. So, if you indulge me, I will ask it now and then allow you the rest of the afternoon to deal with what you wanted to deal with.

Commissioner, please feel free even if you have two, three, four. Commissioner Baro, my my concern was with the asset protection and security services. You in your statement had set out what the mandate of a metrop police is and you referred to section 64 and the alphabetical letters BC that follow. And I did not see anywhere in those sections where it falls within a mandate of a metrop police to be responsible for protection of uh municipal property and I think you rightly said that the owner, the person who's accountable for these properties is actually the COO. Uh, is it right that uh the metrop police should be responsible for this and what has been your experience when you were at uh, I think you were at Nelson Mandela Bay and then City of Cape Town at some point. Is it the same in those municipalities that the metrop police department is responsible for this function of asset protection and security services or is the position different there?

Thank you Commissioner Kumalo. Uh, it does not fall under the metrop police. Commissioner Kumalo, it falls under, it is a leg on its own um in Nelson Mandela Bay under uh safety and security. The same within uh the City of Cape Town. City of Cape Town also has got metrop police, they've got traffic services, they've got law enforcement, and they've got VIP uh services. So Metrop Police does not, it does not fall under Metrop Police also in the City of Kya. So it it seems like Tuan is confused because you corrected yourself and said it was not an insourcing. It was almost a a parallel movement from one section within city of uh Tuani to another. Even Swani is confused because they they're not quite sure where this department or this section or this function should fall. I mean, is that not a problem? Because I'm I'm not sure that the metrop police are qualified and I could be wrong. I'm not sure that they are qualified to deal with this department because their function is really by law enforcement and assisting with crime prevention and all those things that you have mentioned now to be dishing out tenders where you spending billions of random. We had was 2.9 billion the other day. I mean, it's it's a serious concern to me because I don't know that the metrop police are qualified to be dealing with those things.

Commissioner, I was the city manager, the accounting officer gave me the letter 1st of July 2024 and he says um asset APSS is with you now. I believe when there was, remember when we established um metrop police all over the country um like in Cape Town, they took traffic services, law enforcement services and they made it a metrop police with all the others. The same happened here when they had to start the metrop police in 2002. So whatever departments you had that was more like a law enforcement safety, it was under there. That's why originally when they did start the metropolis, APSS was part of Metropolis 2002 and then as I said, 2021, April it was moved away uh via a memo from the then um executive mayor Randall Williams and then the first of July 2024 it came back to Metrop Police. Should it be with Metrop Police? Commissioner Kumalo, you're going to get me into trouble. Um, I would say if if you protect maybe the assets of the city, who is the owner of the assets of the city? So it must either be with a COO who's got the infrastructure, whether it is the um reservoirs or whether it is the uh uh um um electrical substations or the TSO who responsible for all the buildings of the municipality. Uh, so.

I'm saying because here's the thing. When you do eventually insource all the security guards, if you do, let me not say when, if you do eventually insource all the security guards. They won't become metrop police officers because they are not appointed in terms of the subs act.

Yes. So they will become employees of the City of Swani and they will become security guards working for.

TMPD can be responsible for them. So that's why I don't understand why that function because it is outsourced, TMPD is responsible for it. But if it were insourced, those people would not be TMPD officers and they would therefore be employees falling under a different department. But I mean uh maybe the CFO is better placed to ask answer some of these questions. I was just posing it to hear your view. And if you don't want to get into trouble and you prefer not to answer.

I'm I'm a person is happy that chair is happy that we we allow you to say I will leave it for the CFO.

Unfortunately, I have to be honest, Commissioner Kumalo and and that was my honest opinion. Uh, because Commissioner, you are correct. If you if you look at who is the owner, if you look at anybody's property, um Metrop Police is not looking after you. You've got your own security company. So, you as the owner of that house, the state is not going to put a policeman outside your house or metrop police officer. You as the owner of the house must make sure that you have even security measures in place, whether it's a camera, whether it's you must make sure you've got a fence around your house and then you must make sure that maybe a security company will respond if you press a pennet button. So that is that is logical thinking and you are correct Commissioner Kumalo.

Thank you Mr. Skakan. Before you go, let me commissioner in the very last paragraph for your statement where you speak about um protection of whistleblowers effectively the I mean you you expressing something similar to what deputy commissioner speaks um expressed and and his his experience. My question is does the city have any measures or anything in place that protect or that protects or that seeks at least to to provide protection to to people who want to speak to whistleblowers.

And and if the city has, what in fact does it have in place? The the city is allowing you to obviously um if there's information that you want to come forward that you that you can do that whether it is through the the group uh uh um an audit and risk, whether it is through the office of the city manager uh the the city do have measures in place. What I'm really referring to uh uh commissioner is that um if I take uh deputy for Mr. Spe remarks that he's a spy and and and there silly remarks that that is being made um where I think you should applaud people that come forward to actually are not part of the pack and wants to make sure that we do the things the right way.

Commissioner uh uh uh chairperson, I said um I'm going to I'm going to say something uh on a lighter note when I leave here. Um chairperson Madlanga, you will have to pay leola because my surname is going to change to commission Madlanga wherever I enter. The Faru is gone. When I walk out of here, I will send my family over. Um so that is um um commissioner spee that is his name Mlanga. There's no space anymore and I find it I actually find it. Yes, we can laugh about it. However, I actually feel if you in this country come forward against fraud and corruption, why are you becoming the target? People don't want to be around you. People feel like you know uh what are you doing? You're supposed to come to work to do your work and to do it the right way in terms of all the policies and procedures that are there. However, the moment you speak out or you are a person that makes sure that you stop, as I said, when I stopped that adok immediately, there was things fabricated. I'm I'm asking the question to to establish whether the system, I'm asking about the system, whether the the the city has a a system in place which allows people for example to speak confidentially um without fear that what they say will soon be told back to whoever they were telling about. Is that's what I'm I'm trying to figure out.

But what you're explaining as as requiring protection from, it seems to me that that's more a cultural issue of an organization, even country uh that we have that problem. People even when you've got the mechanisms in place, eventually people will come to know you're going to testify in court and they're going to ostracize you and those kind of things seem to require some cultural changes. That's not the kind of question I'm asking. I'm asking system in terms of systems in place for example, if comm deputy commissioner spee is being harassed or you even because you have taken the kind of steps and decisions that you have taken in the discharge of your functions. Does you does the city have in place things like such employees will be disciplined? For example, if if if you harass me because I'm doing my job and I've stopped you from from spending money and I've actually started disciplinary processes against you. Does the city have a system and a culture where action can be taken against those people to to discourage that kind of behavior? Because there's a level at which it's behavior and cultures that have developed over time and something has to be done to stop it. But that's a different conversation to is there anything in place at all or we don't have anything in place that allow people to act without fear uh with some kind of protection. It may not be perfect, but there are ways I can go anonymously.

Yes. To you know, to report the chief financial officer for having you know instructed that purchase orders must be created long after the service had been provided. Is there anything like that in the city is really what I'm trying to determine.

I think we have something in place. We've got a fraud line. We we have but I think uh uh commissioner because we have never had a type of a commission of inquiry. It needs to be refined to include also uh when it comes to appear in front of a commission. I think it's just as you said, it's maybe standard. However, we need to make sure that we look into that and maybe not only in municipalities but all government uh uh establishments and departments to make sure the same it was with CO. We never knew CO and then we had to put things in place in terms of CO. We never knew wearing mask and all of that. So the same thing, the commission is a very good thing of inquiry and I think whatever policies we have or directives we have of SOPs we have, we need to refine it now around that. That is even part of mine at my department that I'm going to work uh with as part of my workshop that I want to include it so people can feel free. But then it needs to be it needs to be in each and every department. It maybe comes from also as I said, we need to refine it and include it and then we must make sure that there is I'm I'm maybe lucky that I have uh um um my uh detail with me because of the post that I have. However, it's not everybody that's got the detail because of the post that they have. And we maybe need to look at that and then also make it easier for people, much much more easier to report and that you know also there's going to be consequence management because it's no use to report and that person stay in the government environment or in the municipality and that person is even aware confidentiality is also very important and that person is aware you are the person that came forward. So all of that we will have to maybe refine it a little bit to make sure we include uh the commission as well and then also what we experience practically and maybe make that also part of a of of um outcome. Uh commissioner uh beloy, I think that will help a lot. Thank you commissioner. The second is a is a clarification on something that we dealt with earlier. But maybe before I do that, let me conclude this part by saying you have for example under the.

I think the commission's act >> where it's a criminal offense to interfere with the work of the commission. So if if someone who testify has testified or is about to testify is being harassed in whatever way you the the perpetrator may well easily fall into you are interfering with the work of the commission and it may well be that in the city uh or in the forum of police chiefs you may want to start that kind of discussion.

But the second thing that I wanted to raise is and it's more to clarify in the the correction that you made. Remember we had the discussion about insourcing and and just moving moving people across and I accept the correction that that you have made. But does it mean therefore that swan has never done an insourcing uh exercise?

The 1,271 was in insult or capacity built in 2019 so that's why we have the outsource.

And the 1,271 was insourced.

Okay. However, as I said, it was insourced. But they did not um include or make sure that there's a plan and we did it now. Let us train them. Let us make sure they um have um um um medical aid. Let make sure they've got pension. Those things were not so they were insourced but they failed to implement that plan.

Okay. So, so that is also what I was busy with now all the time and we had now we we picked that up and we made sure that um we over the three-year period first you get your medical aid. They also didn't get a 13 check so all those things we had to actually uh uh make sure that we we we that insource staff or the capacity built inhouse capacity that then we make sure we correct that before we can even.

In-house capacity build more. Let Let's first correct that.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Mrs.

Thank you, commissioners, and thank you, Commissioner Fo. I will try to just highlight a few points and ask when necessary for you to assist us. Um, back to your statement. Um, you've spoken about your duties or roles and functions and part of it is that you bear the ultimate responsibility for the TMPD.

Yes, that's correct. And part of that also goes to recruitment, appointments, promotion, trans um transfer of members and part of that also includes managing discipline.

That's correct. Correct. Would you and in and then and you and you've spoken to us or testified that you are engaged in a corrective measures for those members that you have since discovered that there was something wrong.

That's correct. And that would be Mr. Piri and there's further um investigations into other.

That's correct. And hopefully I think you you can agree with me where I was having a difficulty that in order for these things to happen, they do need to move with some speed otherwise we they become problematic.

Yes, definitely when when it's um except when there's a complexity about our date, but definitely you are correct and and and and that is what I do with all my investigations. This is just a little bit different.

Indeed. You are correct. And then in terms of your deputy commissioner, the one that's vacant, what's the how long has you said it's been a while. What are the plans about? We have now started the process again or you.

Yes, we have already started the process. Okay. Um, it's just now the holidays that came in between but uh definitely uh um but I want to put it on record if I again don't find the right person. I will have to readvertise again. I'm not just going to appoint somebody for the sake of appointing.

Thank you. And also I think we've gone too many things. My job is truly to lead evidence more than have views. Um, can we go to to the file uh file three? I'm just dealing with the part of the evidence. I apologize that I just at least have to put a record. I think it's there. Thank you. I've got it. Page 382. Got it. Okay. Thank you. I'm there.

Thank you. You see this is a notification for deployment um for goois.

Yes. And at Thank you. Uh, I'm not going to be too long on this. It's just a matter of highlighting the evidence what builds up.

Yes. The problem that we are facing.

This is a a notice um and I would imagine there's no doubt about it. But at the bottom there we see that the person who is signing and will obviously put it to him whether he's the it's his signature.

Is Mr. Pierce.

100%. And commissioner SP has spoken or came to testify and identified that Mr. P signed these notices and that he was not authorized.

Yes. And I suspect and and earlier on you said the same.

I I agree. And then they go these deployments go up to page um um up to page.

424. Correct. And in the majority they are signed by Mr. P.

Yes, that's correct. Perhaps to avoid spec well at the risk of speculation um would you know why he would be the one that signing? What are the possibilities for signing these deployments or maybe let me put it this way in terms of his um level where is he and who does he report to and as far as you on what could this happen properly?

Obviously, this is not I've already said um previously. This is what we picked up and it costed an investigation and that we found obviously that um this this is also stemming from the email that was sent to say that is um um on the 12th of March. This is part of that investigation. Correct.

And that is part of that evidence correct.

That um um um these sites. So it's stemming from there and obviously if if if he is today on on on suspension and then we and then there's a investigation still more investigation pending clearly that this is not what should have been done.

And who does he report to? You as I said uh there is um other members that we also looked at and we must also remember I said previously APSS doesn't have a proper command and control system in place.

Yes. Yes. So yes, we are looking at everybody even the person that is uh reporting to in terms of this we are also looking at the time um because remember he was transferred also if he was also at although he's a um a metrop police officer he was um or he is assisting or was assisting at APS with this movement and everything movement of staff from one um management to another. I will call it understand what you're saying. The he is in TMPD.

You he was it's a team he was a TMPD officer but with the movement uh uh Commissioner Baloy they've moved the staff. Staff had a choice if you want to move with to um to the office of the city manager to obviously assist because you can't leave a vacuum. So some remained behind when they when that was maybe assisting and and and said um you know I will they had the choice I will remain others went with. So there is where pir's involvement came in terms of um inspector perry of um a aps so he was then um part of assisting there by APS.

Yeah, um I thought I understand the the I understood the structure as you're explaining it but now I'm confused. Initially they were they were moved to the city manager's office.

Yes. 100%. And then returned now to.

Back to TMPD.

TMPD. Yes. 100%. So where is he sitting now? At the date at the date of uh page 382 which is the 15th of January 2025 period 40.

That he was back at Metro Police because remember 1st of July 2024.

Yes. They moved back. So he's at in TMPD at the time as he issues these instructions.

And he reports to somebody. Who does he report to?

He he must he must report to somebody.

No, definitely he's reporting to somebody.

Yes. Um, I must just double check. But I um that's why I don't want to I want to give names here if I'm not 150% sure who does he report to because of the back and forth and back and forth. So why would the overall head where he's sitting. Oh, the overall head is Lamini the overall head.

No, no, no, no. Who is the overhead?

The overall head will be um deputy commissioner space.

Where is now?

Yes. Yes.

All right. But at January 2025.

That was um deputy commissioner.

Bes.

It was Bles at the time. Okay. So his at January 2025 his ultimate head would have been Bles at that time.

That's correct, Commissioner.

Okay. That's correct.

Thank you. My apologies for confusing you.

Just for while we are on this, the other person I was talking about is on 399 and 400.

So, you'll see that for those two purchase orders.

Say again the the number uh.

Page 399 and 400.

I'm there. So, those are the two during that period. Okay.

That were not signed by.

And my my question was.

This is one of the person that was not suspended.

Yes. No, we are.

If the investigation has revealed.

This is the 100% you are correct. You are correct. We are looking at actually if we can't find actually more uh if you look at the the the first one there was there was a little bit of a stack. So this one we also checking and and also I said the person that we also said in terms of uh the the invoices and did you check uh is it according to um um um the standards and why is it supposed to be done. So yes that is that is part of the the truth and you are correct. So this Dr. Mandy Sab is a senior superintendent. Does he also um I don't know whether it's a he or she do they re report to.

Also? Yes. Um, to pol that time and um now to space that is correct.

That is correct. And you're saying that obviously there's still going there's some reasoning why.

Yes, he. He's not placed on suspension.

Yes. Yes. Yes. There's a reasoning to do that. Um, that's that's that. Um, then I think the next section which I'm going to run through very quickly in the interest of time as well is what has happened in your department. Um, and for that could you could you please take 55.

Now this is a file um containing WhatsApp chats um and I think you may be familiar with them and in the commission when Sergeant Kosig came to testify. If you take me to the page, I.

I I'll take you to. But I'm just saying the the I'm telling what this is about.

That's fine. Um, and I understand um you may be at a disadvantage in the sense that these are not your WhatsApps, but I just want to highlight a few things for you. Um, then we'll go to the to to the other issues. One is that what we see in these chats generally is that there is a close relationship between the CFO that Mr. Nissi and Mr. and go sajori and if you look at it, they call each other bras, they go to the shooting rage, they seem to have a very cozy and very close relationship between the two of them um I don't want to take you through to each but just accept that's what what I'm saying um as an example if you go to the to page 10 of that file Monday.

Um, they talk about where are you my brother and they refer to okay my bro uh we can meet tomorrow and there are quite regular meetings between the two of them. Um, that's the f that's the first point that uh just in the interest of time but also they share a lot of uh documents that are internal within the city. Um, I'm going to go through that document now. If you go to page 65.

I'm there. At page 65. This is you'll see it's a screenshot and I don't want you to engage with the contents but essentially this is a screenshot of a text of an email that is drafted by um Nissi um and is forwarded to to Sergeant Going. You see that? And also he then has a message underneath that says please read and confirm if all is in good order before I send that would read to me that he's asking for because his permission.

About sending a message in an official capacity. Then another example of this brotherhood is at page 96. And there. And then at the just below the meat section uh Sergeant Coy um take it for granted that that's his number zero tolerance he says compliments my brother indeed I in you I found a true other you see this coziness between the two of them.

I do. Then if you then turn to the following p at page 99 that's the CFO sending a tender advert to Mr. and go and then he advises him and says refer to I have sent the above to bey regroup on it. Now, I accept that you you're not the the person that wrote that message, but what it does suggest is that rightly or wrongly, the CFO is sending an internal um advert as it were to to certain go and it seems that they say we need to regroup on it, meaning there is some uh coordinated effort of some of some sort.

Correct. Yes. That's how it reads anyway. Yeah. Yeah. This is how I. The CFO will come through.

Yes. The CFO will obviously. And then if you turn over to page 800. It would seem towards the bottom. The CFO says he's going to Deben. He's going for a massive business deal. That's you see that. So they also clearly share some and then if you go to the following page 102 um then it's an example of another meeting and the CFO says can we meet today please? So it's another incident of these regular meetings between the two of them.

And as you can see the file is thick h with a lot of messages exchanged between them. And then 103 is a continuation of that. Okay. Then if you go to page 114 at the bottom there there are engagements at the last message. This is from CFO. He says just finished. What time do you think you can be this side? You think I can get a bank account in the meantime? I don't want to delay any further. And then the follow at the following page then he then also says let's meet.

Correct. Correct. So, and then go to 117 then it's a at the bottom it is Mr. a photo and then below it this is CFO saying it's okay my brother we are managing this guy my brother I just wanted to show you Bongulu will never win right.

Now what I'm trying to point out to you is that they seem to have some interaction between them and because he seems to have some access to the CFO of some nature. Another example of their close relationship is graphic at page 125 towards the bottom there. It's at 18 February where he says I'm um I was thinking of you. That's again a very close relationship that we see. But I want us to then go to towards February towards March.

Go to page 133.

1. 133. I'm there. And the CFO asks um Sergeant Goi who's the Pongo or Joe Mabunda from TMPD.

Right. And then next page um.

Oh, would that be yourself? Where does he get a photo of me? I'm My apologies, commissioners. I'm just now shocked to see there's a photo of me. Yeah. Is that uh Seo? Do you know?

Yes. And this is the day um I think it's the second day that I'm at Chwani Metropolis where I called all the seniors in my boardroom and I introduced myself. Second or the third day. This is where this photo is stemming from.

Um, I see. Yes. So yes, this is um Brigadier um Cipo Sebastian. Here I introduce myself as the new commissioner. I called uh all of them into the boardroom so that they can not see me through a email or messages. I wanted them to meet me in person. So this photo is is from 2023.

Okay. And then um Jabunda the following page at one not following at page 136. This is um the investigation that Celius Brink talks about. I think we referred to it about one of the suppliers uh about the investigation into a security tender. Do you know anything about this?

No, I don't. Yeah. So, as you can see, it's not it is from a political party.

Yeah, that's fine. Then go to 141.

I'm there. Thank you. Uh at the top we start with a lot of calls between the two of them. But then towards the bottom the second last the CFO says is general winning.

Do you know general by any chance? Who do they refer general as? I don't know if it's a general in South African police service um because we do not have um generals in in metropolis or in the metropolis. We've got um commissioners and.

Correct. Deputy commissioners. So.

No, that's fine. You I think the testimony. I think if I'm not mistaken, I think uh what was revealed in the evidence was that between um Mr. Mesi and Sergeant Goi the general was um.

Deputy commissioner. Mashamini. Mash. I was going to just put it because I'm going to juxtapose it later on. Yes. He he is on a general a general he is on a rank of a major general and um.

I'm not I'm not suggesting that that was the official but. When they communicated when they said general they were referring to.

I understand. To deputy commissioner.

I understand. Yeah. Yeah. And do you know if just out of curiosity whether there was any relation between Damini and the CFO? Do they know each other? Do you know?

No relationship that I am aware of. um on several occasions even in the management meeting if there's a matter then then I'm the one that leazing with the CFO because remember we are 6 and 56 appointment appointees. So um no there's no relationship um yes in terms of his administrative um support function he will deal with obviously with the CFO's um departments and if he's acting in my state then definitely will y with the CFO but Um, no relationship that I'm aware of openly. Definitely not.

No, that's fine. Thanks. We start to see this is now in March 2025 and you'll correct me if I'm wrong. This is the just after the ad hoc services uh were signed off by.

Okay. Just to contextualize it or at least I see the evidence leading to. Then we're at 142 at the top.

I'm there. He then says this is now Sergeant Coy. He confirmed it will be sorted now. Now now he will give feedback soon before 12. Then below that CFO says okay it's not yet in my system. You see that? And then cross his fingers.

See that? Then then we go over to 143. At the top. There's a message where he says he said he won't disappoint.

I see that message. Below that CFO says thanks in 42. And then below that says morning captain. This is a forwarded message and I I'll locate it. Please just confirm from Fu to I'm processing the issue and I've spoken to Kane and Vi also to increase the target value as the amount is a bit higher and as soon as all of them are released I will let you know for his intervention to ensure that Tommy makes payment urgently. You see this is an engagement about money. H I can see that definitely.

Correct. Do you know of Kane and who's he?

I don't know who's the captain because he's greeting morning captain. Um, in terms of um, I don't know who Vousy is and who is this message to the CFO because I see these are the reason but it has been established. I think that's where he comes from. Okay, thank you. Um, if it's to the CFO, if I the names that I can and I don't know because there's no surname so I don't want to assume that the uh I know I do know there's a cane and Tommy when it is in the um uh um SEM the supply chain management the uh Vussy I because there's lots of VI so I don't know really so I don't want to know assume.

Yes. But um if I just look at because you say this is our CFO of Chani that uh I do know that Kane and Tommy uh um those names.

Okay. If it is that they are referring to that because there's no surnames.

That's fair. And you say both if if it is the right ones both Kane and Tommy are in supply chain management.

Yes, they are. They all the group financial services. Yes. Yes, they are. Thank you. Definitely Commissioner Abalo if it is them.

Thank you. But the just to contextualize this, I do apologize. Just leave that file open. Go to file six.

Six. Got it. I'm getting good at this. I've got it.

You've got it. Let me wait for the commissioners. In the meantime, turn to page 427.

427. Yes. 427 in the middle. Well, let me just first contextualize. These are WhatsApp chats between Umashi Zamini General and Zero Tolerance who's Gossi.

Okay. Sergeant Goi.

In the middle there's a message and and I read it. It says, "Morning, Captain."

That's chat number four.

Chat number four indeed. Sorry. I apologize.

Yes. Can you see?

Yes. Yes, there number four. Thank you. Uh chair, it says, "Morning captain. Please just confirm for FU to UGI. I am processing the issue and I've spoken to Kane and Vi also to increase the target value as the amount is a bit higher and as soon as all of them are released, I will let you know for his intervention to ensure that Tommy makes payment urgently."

You see, it's identical.

It's identical. So this message was then forwarded by um Sergeant Goi.

Okay. To CFO for for payment. So the discussion is around payment. All right. While we are there, you will then go down in the same file towards the I think chat seven and it says is the general winning, right? You see that with three question marks.

Yeah, I see. If you then go to the to file five, you see that?

Yes. Same message.

Identical. Right. So what seems to be happening is that Gorsi is playing middleman.

Between the two about discussions. You see?

Yes, I do. All right. Then go down uh still at 143 file five. Now commissioners, you may just put away file file six. We we'll come back to it later.

Go to file five.

55. I think that's where we were.

Oh, where we were?

Yes. Then the second last message from Sergeant Goen is yes we have warned busy with creating requisitions and at the same time releasing them in order for buyers to create POS. You see that?

I see the message. Now, he's owning the process and says we have won um the but either way he's in the middle of it. Now you'll recall earlier we're dealing about ethics in the SCM policy. Um, just at your level at would you say that Sergeant Go has any role to play in these discussions?

Definitely not. Isn't Sosi from the South African Police Service?

Yes, it is. He is not employee of the city of Jani or supply chain management. I know it I failed to understand what is his role.

Okay. But then it would be a problem if that was the case.

Yes, definitely. Okay. What it would also highlight is that within the TMPD there is a problem.

No, definitely he is if he is um playing a role that he's not supposed to from a external department. Um, also in terms of um um the previous all the messages that you have um written to record and took us through um yes, it's concerning definitely.

With the CFO general who's also an important figure here is is your deputy commissioner.

Yes, he is. Okay. You you turn to the next page 144 and there and I'm not picking you will see that surgeon because he then sends a Kubis invoice he's not employed by he sends a goop is invoice to CFO and the the caption there is that this one is for the previous financial year we will engage later we'll engage later on how to address it in order to avoid post factor.

You see that.

I see. There are two possibilities how he could be in position of that invoice other than finding it in the floor. It's either he has it from Kubis or someone within the TMPD gave him and we see there at the bottom the signature in the invoice is TP Malaj.

One could assume that it has to be Mr. to good marage.

Yes, that's correct. Then the message below is thanks for go to the following page. I will try I think I will try and um the next at the top there's a message evening captain. You see that?

Yes, I do. Right. Can I ask you and I do apologize commissioners to go to file six. Just say again. Sorry.

429.

42. 429. Apologies.

Got it. At the top it's chat one.

Yes. You'll see that message is identical to the message at page 145.

Yes, it's identical. And that would also again indicate that.

There is a web of sorts.

Yes, definitely. And Sergeant Goi plays some role in that web.

And then at page 145 of the file 5 then CFO says thank you for it. Much appreciated.

Much appreciated. Let's push to finalize everything tomorrow so we can pay those guys before Friday. At the bottom there's another message from him. The second last one he says please extend my gratitude to the general. He has delivered POS as per the request have been approved. See you later.

Yes, I see that. Um, that's just on that segment. Um, now what I was trying to achieve or to show you is that you've got an intervention around the same time of these ADOC payments.

Yes. Where there was a request for funding. But there is this it may it may be or may not be related but you've got Kubis being central here and also their invoice is being processed so to speak and you've got someone external that is there that seems to be the facilitator.

And just to avoid any any waste of time surgeon go did come and testify and um didn't dispute that he did play some role in assisting in the ev in the in in the processing of payments but it may be from the fact that it out of his nobility not not anything what we then then go to is the relationship between we're still going to come to this far is the relationship that I'd like us to go through with your employee or deputy commissioner and.

Sergeant Goen that's in file six. May we at this point just take a quick quick uh comfort break. Let's agend. Our spokesperson will indicate when we're coming back. It won't be long. That's a J.