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[Music] [Music] Thanks for joining us on the exchange with Ed Stetzer, where we discuss truth, thoughts, and theology. On today's show, Ed spoke with a well-known leader and author, Todd Wilson. Now, Todd is the founder and he currently serves as the director of Exponential, whose core focus is distributing thought leadership. He has a passion for starting healthy new churches, and he has written or co-written multiple books, including Spark and Becoming a Level Five Multiplying Church, along with Dave Ferguson. His most recent book is More: Find Your Personal Calling and Live Life to the Fullest Measure.

Before we get to their conversation though, let's hear from Dr. Eric Guyger about why small groups are so important for believers. So here's what we found when we did a massive research project on small groups. This is this was—I mean, this was fascinating, and we shouldn't be surprised because the scripture actually reminds us that we should not give up meeting together. Um, the scripture encourages us to encourage one another daily, as long as it is called today, so none of you will be hardened by sin's deceit. Jesus says that we are to be sanctified by his truth. His word is truth. And he's praying that in John 17, right after he's praying that and right before he's praying that the disciples will be one. And so we see in John 17 that Jesus wants us unified and sanctified, and that happens in community. So we shouldn't be surprised when there's research that says being in a group, being in community is going to have an impact.

But here's what the data said: Those who are in a small group, as opposed to those who are not in a small group, those who are in a small group, they report that they confess their sins more frequently. They give more generously. Um, they share the gospel more regularly. They serve more sacrificially, much more so than those who are not in a group. And so after this massive research project on groups, we just had to walk away from the data and say, here's the deal: Being in a small group, it really does. It matters. It matters. It makes an impact on the hearts of people when the small group is truly a community of people built on the foundation of who Jesus is and what he's done for us.

And so, how do—how does this discipleship relate to groups? Well, just a couple of thoughts, um, when we think about truth. And so here's the takeaway for us from this massive research project on discipleship and on groups: Truth is, you want to be sure you feed your people. Feed your people. And this means to be sure that the content of our groups, what people study, what people ingest together and talk about together and discuss, that they're not just getting together randomly and having conversations that are at the surface level. But if we really want to see transformation happen, the content of our groups is going to take people over and over again to who Jesus is and what he's done for us. We're not going to see transformation happen in our groups if the groups are built on something that is shallow. And so we must feed our people. We must use the environment of a small group to ensure that the lives of that group intersect with the word of God that never changes. So feed your people well. So that's truth posture.

Uh, even when we did the research on transformational discipleship, which was before transformational groups, we found out this: that one aspect of a posture that is teachable, a posture that is soft and moldable for the Lord is when someone is in community. You know, Dietrich Bonhoeffer once said that sin wants to have a man by himself. Sin wants us to remain alone. Sin wants us to be in the darkness and isolation, not in community. But community, the Lord uses it to mature and transform his people. So, we want to apply the truth of God to the hearts of people. Feed your people while they're in a teachable posture. And this is really groups. And so, we want to challenge you to launch groups.

And so, why—why do I want to launch new groups? Well, there's people in your church right now that are not going to get connected in community in your church unless you launch new groups. The—the groups that are already there, they feel established. It's hard sometimes to join a group that's been meeting for 18 months or for two years. And so as you launch new groups, you provide opportunities for people who are not yet connected to enter a posture of interdependence where they can be encouraged and challenged and cared for and loved on by other people in community. So feed your people, launch new groups, and leaders—develop your leaders.

So when you think about the movement of your church, it's not truth posture—leader as if you're the only leader. If you're the youth pastor, you—you shouldn't lead a youth ministry where everything goes back to you. If you're the senior pastor, you don't want to lead a church where all of the discipleship and transformation in that church rest on your ability. There's no such thing as an omnicompetent pastor. And so you want to develop leaders. This is what the scripture teaches us in Ephesians 4. It's actually our role as pastors not to do all of the ministry, but to equip God's people for ministry. And so, as leaders—not just a leader in a local church, but as leaders—apply the truth of the gospel to people's hearts while they're in a teachable posture, the Lord brings about transformation. And the good news is is that small groups can make a significant impact in the hearts of people as the gospel of Jesus is applied to their hearts while they're in community. So your groups, they really matter significantly. They're only going to be transformational if they're rooted in who Jesus is and what he's done.

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Todd, we have known each other for a very long time. Years. 15 plus years. 15 plus years. Wow. Um, okay. So, now you're like being a life planner. I mean, I'm trying to figure out what that is. So, a life planner, is that like something Oprah does? Is that something—I mean, come on, help me understand because I'm talking to people that are working with you that are telling me it's life-changing. So, what's a life planner do?

You know, uh, life planning is all about the idea that God has a story in your life. He's been writing a story. Your—your life is like a book. Uh, every book has chapters, chapters into sections, characters, themes, sub-themes. And it's the idea that if we want to understand what's God for me in the next three chapters, let's look at the first 25 chapters, and it's going to reveal to us a timeline of—of stories and characters. And it is just amazing in the process of life planning. I love it because uh, everyone has a story, and as their story comes to life and they have the ahas of discovery, there is just clarity of what God's—you know, seeing the pattern of what God's already done and then where God's taking them. So what I love about life planning is just helping people uh discover those ahas of clarity of what God has next for them.

Okay. I'm just intrigued by it because I mean, like you talk about the plan in life. I mean, you were working in nuclear submarines and now you're—you're running this thing—uh, you—this ministry—help life planning—you've been involved with Exponential conference, which is now the largest church planting gathering—do we say—on the planet? Is that the official thing—on the planet—on this planet? There could be other planets that have larger, so we don't want to make it all-inclusive—in the universe—um, so—so I mean, how does your—tell us about your life journey—so—so as an example in retrospect of life planning in my own life—uh, we look for—I remember—when’s—if you think about—I remember when’s in your life. Uh, I was five or six years old, and my mother would tell you right now, I would take apart things in the living room, the coffee table, uh, take them apart, put them back together, take them apart, put them back together. I don't know if I was trying to figure out a better way to do it, but the—the—the first signs of an engineer were there. I remember when I was 12 years old, sitting in the back of chemistry class, we didn't even have whiteboards yet. It's a chalkboard. Okay, it's awesome. And the chemistry teacher is up front and he's drawing a picture of an atom, protons, neutrons, and I am fascinated. Um, I went home that day and told my parents, I want to be a nuclear physicist. This is at 12 years old. 12 years of age. At 12 years of age. Wow. Um, within a year, blue-collar family, my dad has hedges in the backyard. I have to go home every day and water the hedges. And I designed the idea that I could have an irrigation system, turn on the hose, and I could go play with the neighbors. So immediately at 13, oh, you need to be an engineer, physicist, I want to be a nuclear engineer. So I—I'm one of those weird people that I want to be a nuclear engineer at 13. I went off and became a nuclear engineer.

Let me just affirm, having known you 15 years, you are one of those weird people. That is weird. And—and I'll just say that the only person I've ever heard—like we talk about their mom—and I know your mother, which is fascinating to me as well. First time ever on the show. I know your mother. Okay. So—so you're 13. I'm 13, and—and now uh, I give you that background because I become a Christian at 22 and wonderful career in the Navy as a nuclear engineer, age 30—33, I go through an early halftime experience, read Bob Buford's halftime book, and I now go through a two-year wrestling match to go into full-time ministry and really a wrestling match, and then you know the rest of the story with Exponential and church planting and other things. Well, if you look back in retrospect and those I remember when moments. Why was I fascinated by a person drawing a picture on the board? It wasn't nuclear physics. It was that idea that someone could draw a picture of something of the future or something they couldn't see and know so much about it. And that's really now when I look back in retrospect, my own calling is doing the same thing with other people. Okay? Helping them create a picture of something they don't yet see. And so that—that I remember when tapped into something in my soul that God put there. And that's what life planning is all about is uncovering those clues in your past. And sometimes there are things you don't even think about until you start to put together that storyline of I remember when.

Okay. So then you—you write your—your book, right? So this is—this is the book that I'm trying to remember how you exactly said to me. The book that was sort of in you for a very long time. You've written some other things. I've written the forward for some things you've written, but it's been church planting stuff primarily. But tell us about this new book.

So, here's—here's what happened in this one: Five years in the writing, and this is a work of the heart. Um, about eight years ago, ironically, it was Bob Buford and the halftime book 15 years ago that propelled me into ministry. Yeah. Let me say—to—we should probably explain. So, Bob Buford is a philanthropist, you know, Christian leader. Uh, he—one of the things he wrote is called Halftime, which helped people sort of in their—in their second half of life—you know, mid—middle age, mid-career people who transition into something that's more about significance than success. So that's when you refer to halftime, that's what we're talking about, right? And so uh, about eight years ago, Bob and I got to know one another, started doing some work with Bob, we really hit it off, and Bob challenged me with this question about eight years ago: He wanted me to do some work with him, and he said I was going to work about 20% of my time with him, and he—"I want you to be 100% in your sweet spot for the 20% of the time you're with me." Meaning, I don't want you to do anything that's not 100% in your sweet spot. And I got to tell you, Ed, immediately like my soul just left, which—it's like, wow, 100% in the sweet spot. Well, then a second thing set in immediately. It's like, well, how will I even know that I'm 100% in my sweet spot? Do I understand it enough? And then the third—the third thought was the kiss of death, which was—why am I getting so excited about 20% of my time in my sweet spot? That put me on a journey of—well, what is a sweet spot? What does it mean to function in your sweet spot? And if—and as an engineer—now, if you look in nature, there are thousands of sweet spots. This room has an acoustic sweet spot. Baseball bats have sweet spots. There's thousands. If you look at the common denominator of every sweet spot, every sweet spot has a purpose, a design, and a position. Purpose, design, position. Purpose, design, position. If you think about the questions men have been asking, men and women since the fall in the Garden of Eden, who am I created to be? Yeah, a design question. What am I made to do? A purpose question. Where the heck am I supposed to do it? A position question. It is not by accident that after the fall in the garden, the—the separation between us and God and our relationship, the—the position of work, the position in eternity, that we now struggle to get back and find our sweet spots. And so, what's happened over the last couple years, I went on a journey of—really, what's it mean to find your own sweet spot that God made you for? And so this book that I've written has been a five-year work of really uh using a framework of a sweet spot: Who am I created to be? What am I made to do? Where am I supposed—

Okay. But the title has meaning—to tell us the title and subtitle. Uh, the idea of More—uh, the book comes out of John 10:10 when—when Jesus says, "I came that you might have life and have it more abundantly or have it to the full." Uh, when you really look behind what that means, uh, I would use this analogy. Um, we can have a marriage; we can walk down the aisle, say our dues, sign the certificate and have a marriage—says nothing about the quality of the marriage. Um, we have to take hold of a—of a solid marriage. We have to work at it. We have to grab it. And when Jesus says, "I came that you might have life and have it more abundantly," really, in the Greek behind it, it's—you might have life and take hold of life more abundantly. In fact, the Greek is—take hold of it exceedingly abundantly more—that you can take hold of life to the overflowing—is what it means—to the fullest overflowing. So if you look at that picture of life—can be more. It can be to the—to exceeding the cup and overflowing. And what is the overflow? It's the overflow of God's love to other people. Our calling is meant to—to take the love that Jesus has for us and overflow it to other people. So the More comes from that idea of John 10:10 of—there is more for us uh here.

Welcome back to the exchange with Ed Stetzer. Our featured guest today is Todd Wilson, the founder of Exponential. We'll have the second part of their conversation in just a minute, but first, Pastor Tony Evans tells us the key to longevity in ministry. [Music]

So, More—the theme that you've kind of laid out there. Um, how does that relate to our own spiritual journey? Because it's not just finding the sweet spot in life, it's about finding your sweet spot and—and living in Christ.

Sure. Um, one of the things that I had to work through in writing the book, Os Guinness, um, who wrote one of the best books out there on calling about a decade ago, Os gave me some coaching when I started this process five years ago. He asked me this question. He said, uh, "Are you just going to write another self-help book here?" And it really threw me back a little bit. Tell me what you mean. He said, well, so many of the books that are out there on calling and other things are really about self-fulfillment. They're about—how do I be more self-fulfilled in life? That really challenged me to look a little deeper at—you—beyond the sweet spot idea, but the definition of calling. And if you look at what a lot of historians and theologians and even the Bible have to say, many people look at a primary calling. And a primary calling would be defined—it's what the Bible talks about most of the time—common to all Christians all the time, everywhere. Our primary calling is to be a disciple, a child of God, a disciple of Jesus who makes disciples wherever we are. We don't have to travel around the world to make disciples. We make them where we are. Well, if you look at that basic primary calling—be a disciple who makes disciples where we are—there's your be, do, go. I'm created to be a disciple who makes disciples. The do—where I am. And that's—we share that primary calling with all Christians everywhere. Universal for believers. Universal for everyone everywhere. Now, if you look in the book of Ephesians, in Ephesians 1, which the book covers Ephesians, in Ephesians 1, we—we see the purpose of the church to be the fullness of Jesus into every crack and cranny of society. Well, our secondary calling is God's unique equipping. He makes us with a unique identity uh to do good works and deeds where we can be most effective. So in our primary calling—shared with everyone—be a disciple who makes disciples where we are. In our unique calling, he equips us to uniquely go on mission—to be a disciple who makes disciples where we are and gives us a unique equipping.

So okay, so how does—how does the unique calling relate to—like spiritual gifts—relate to—like those things?

Sure. Guys, when I—when I hear universal responsibility, universal discipleship, I get that. I hear spiritual gifts. I get that. But help me understand how calling relates to that individual calling.

Yeah. I would again—if we're going to look in—in—in—in Ephesians—like the five-fold gifting out of Ephesians that Jesus himself gave—some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be teachers, some to be shepherds, some evangelists. The idea that Jesus gifts us individually, and we see those gifts in practice. I—I'm more of a leadership, apostle, teacher, and you'll see that in me—in my personal life, with my family, in work—those unique gifts that Jesus gives us—the spiritual gifts he gives us—transcend all domains of life—that absolutely is an expression of our unique personal calling. It's really fascinating to me that in Ephesians 1, uh, Paul talks about the purpose of the church—carry the fullness of Jesus into every crack and cranny of society; Ephesians 2—where God's workmanship—ship—created to do good works that he uniquely prepared for us where we're at. So there's our unique thing. Ephesians 3—for the purpose of building up and reaching maturity. And then what do we see in Ephesians 4? Then Jesus himself gave us unique gifts to accomplish that mission of carrying his fullness into society. And so it's him who equips us with that unique gift. It's—it's really—it's a great process, a picture and process.

Good. All right. So we have known each other primarily through the lens of starting new churches, right? Uh, which is certainly deeply related to the making of disciples, right? We—we—we evangelize and we disciple into existence new churches. But one of the things that we're emphasizing together now is this idea of kind of raising the temperature, if you will, of church planting engagement in the—in the West primarily. That's where we're influencing people in the English-speaking western world. So talk to us a little bit about the—the emphasis—the Level Five emphasis that—that—that you're helping promote and I've sort of jumped on board with you.

Right. Well, through the work at Exponential—at Exponential, we work with—I would say—church entrepreneurs—the folks who are starting new faith communities. They're out on the leading edge of things, and as you know, Ed, with research you've done and just looking at statistics, um, you can really group churches into different categories. We've got churches that are subtracting or declining, and—and a lot of new churches start in that category. Um, churches that are plateaued, churches that are—are adding by addition, churches that are reproducing—they might be starting sites, they're planting churches. And then in a fifth category—when you did the Viral Churches—you and Warren Bird—book we wrote together about churches—wrote together about—about—but churches—you were looking for those churches that spontaneously—over—you know—would reproduce—reach 50%—you know—new convert—50% new church with 50% new converts to the third generation—to the third generation—that's a fifth kind of level of churches. Well, when we go look for those in the United States, we can't find them. It's just hard to find, and that is not the way it's—we have seen it in our lifetime—Vineyard, Calvary Chapel. You know, there—there have been—70s and 80s—some of that, but right now it'd be hard to identify that level of reproduction. And—and if we can assume that that's not the way God wants it to be, that he wants to see it. Uh, you and I are committed together. It's where our journeys have been. What does it look like for us to cooperate with God to see that happening? So at Exponential—Exponential is a conference in Orlando and in LA and also regionals and meetings and—and website—people can get all information—just so they know what Exponential is. Um, what we're trying to do is just with that vocabulary of those five levels of churches, Level one, Level two, three, four, five—what does it look like for us to have pathways—if you—if you're at Level two—to a pathway to three to four to five—if you're at three to five, but to see more reproducing and multiplying churches. And so that's what we're committed to at this point. And it starts with a simple framework and vocabulary for that. And so Level Five is this—uh—higher level of multiplication, which is ironic—you know—whenever you watch movies they're like—you know—"here's a hurricane, it's Category 7"—there's no such thing, right? But they do that—or earthquake is—you know—Victor scale 13, but it's sort of a—you know—a—a way in film—but when it comes to church multiplication—I mean, really around the world we've got sixes, sevens, and eights, but we're just trying to get to five here in the English-speaking western world, right? And so—so what—I mean—we look to—I guess we shouldn't mention some of the countries, but some of the countries are restricted—but I can name right now places that are multiplying at 10 times their Level Five.

So why Level Five? Why don't we go for the church planting movement that we see David Garrison write about?

Right. We're—we want to take one step at a time, Ed. And the idea—Dave Ferguson and I—Dave Ferguson helps run Exponential with me, Community Christian Church in Chicago. Our conviction right now, we call it the one to 10. We want to see in our lifetime, we want to be part of seeing in US churches—us—move from less than 1% of churches at—at a level of multiplication, whether you call it 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, or 10—to 10% of churches doing it. What's it look like to move the needle from 1 to 10? What we feel like we can make a difference in—in the US church, we have defined success with fastest-growing churches, largest churches, the addition lust that we have. Addition, addition lust. We have defined success as what we're now calling Level three. Yeah. Addition growth. Part of what we're trying to do subtly by a Level Five scale is to redefine success. Yeah. So now by making Level three—that we've said is what you want to aspire to be—well, who wants—

To be a level three if you can be a level five? Well, and language shapes you think of level five leader, you know, these these ideas. So, so the reason that that I wrote the forward to your book called it's called level five, isn't it? Right. Becoming a level five multiple level five multiplying church.

And the reason I got on board with it is I think language uh does what the writer of Hebrews says, provokes one another to love and good deeds. And so we want to get to what we've seen in our lifetime: Calvary Chapel and Vineyard church multiplication movements that impact uh North America and and even beyond.

What's your hope as coming coming as we look through the exponential conferences and meetings? What's your hope to see in the next few years? Our hope right now is is exactly what you just said. It's the language and the vocabulary to start a simple sticky language. And we're seeing that already. The the level 1 2 3 4 5. Someone hears it, they remember it, they're using it.

Um we would like to be providing some thought leadership in that partnerships with Lifeway. We're thrilled with our partnership with you where we not just have the language, but we start to see resources. What we want to do is not just help somebody see that they're a level two. We want to help them with a pathway to five. What's it look like for you to be equipped from a two to a five?

Um we've developed an assessment tool called the becoming five assessment tool. Uh that assessment tool 20 minutes for any church to take and it will score them on their past, their present, their future, give them a a pattern and a score on the level five scale. And that our hope and dream is that over the next couple of years, an expanding library of resources develops to help churches not just see where they're at, but then move toward the level five uh behaviors.

For resources, books, and Bible studies mentioned in the show, visit edstzer.com. And while you're there, check out past episodes or read the latest study and analysis from Lifeway Research. Thanks for joining us on the exchange. We hope you'll be back with us again next week. [Music] [Music]