BILL GATES REVEALS: "I Was Wrong About Success…"

This is a world where somebody can have over a hundred billion dollars. What is that? These fortunes are almost illegitimate unless, in a very smart way, given back. One of the biggest names in business, tech, and philanthropy, exploring and investing in innovative solutions to some of the world's toughest problems, Bill Gates.

Starting with Microsoft, where I had monomaniacal focus, giving up weekends and vacation wasn't some big sacrifice. I loved it. The idea that everybody would use a computer was somewhat ridiculed, so it was kind of fun saying, "No, no, this is really going to be mainstream."

If you look at it from the outside, you see Steve Jobs and yourself having this competition. Envy, jealousy? What was it actually like? He said, "We were the General Motors, and he was Mercedes."

Social networking, we're still arguing about what the policy should be. Algorithms reward outrageous things, even if they're not at all factual.

I've always underestimated how incredible my father was. He would say, "Hey, I'm sorry I worked so hard," and I'd say, "No, no, that was fine." I feel lucky that he lived as long as he did. It brings tears to my eyes because he was incredible.

Do you remember one of the final conversations you had with him? The number one health and wellness podcast, Jay Shetty. Jay Shetty. He won the only Jay. There's so much conversation today, I feel, about work-life balance. Do you think that that sacrifice and that dedicated time was necessary for the levels of success, or would it have been possible in another way?

No, I think for Microsoft to be successful, even though we were the first, and we had a broader concept of software than the other companies, we needed to be, uh, what I would call hardcore. And, you know, in that case, the work is what I want to do. It's, it's not like, "Oh God, you know, I've got to earn a little bit more money." It's, you know, this is the thing that...

Throughout my childhood, I was so lucky, you know, because of my parents and some early friends, school I went to. I had these exposures to computers that were very rare. And so I had, you know, all these thousands of hours of programming experience and great feedback on, "Okay, how do you do it better?" from the very best adults. I got to see what was coming, and the idea of being part of making that real, you know, I woke up and said, "Okay, I, I'd love to get to work."

My younger self could stay in, you know, days at a time. I, I don't do that now, but then it was just in no way a hardship, you know, because I, I, you know, felt we were part of something that, uh, was would be very empowering. And, you know, competitively, I wanted us to be the ones to make it happen.

One of your favorite quotes that I've always loved is, you've said, "We overestimate what we can do in one year and we underestimate what we can do in 10 years." At the beginning, did you over or underestimate yourself?

Well, people when they would hear us say, "A computer on every desk and in every home, uh, running Microsoft software," they were like, "You kids are really out of it." I mean, "Every desk, every home?" You know, "What would people do with these things?" But because the chips were improving exponentially, doubling every couple of years, it allowed us to think of the computing part as essentially being free. And so the only thing that would hold you back is, you know, "Okay, can you help people with photographs? Can you help them with documents? Can you help them stay in touch with people far away or find information?" And we knew over time, uh, that as these things got better, it would be part of the mainstream. And so as people sort of came around to that, they were like, "Wow, whether it's at work or at home, this is just part of how people do things." Uh, and we wanted, you know, to get it out to everyone, you know, students everywhere, you know, even in the countries that are low-income.

You mentioned your parents earlier, and when I was reading this book, I felt like they are such a big part of this book and the storytelling and the incredible experiences and memory. And one of the things you mention is you say that they felt that they accepted that you were different from your peers. And I was wondering, in what way? How did you know that they had seen that and accepted that?

Well, it definitely confounded them that sometimes I was pushing back in a pretty tough way, you know, as though, you know, we were in some competition. Uh, they would hear from teachers, and they were very good about staying in touch with my teachers. You know, some teachers would say, "This kid should be skipped." Uh, had one or two grades. Some teachers would say, "This kid should be held back." You know, so that kind of is what, you know, make up your mind.

I had one experience where I worked on a report about the state of Delaware, and I ended up doing this 200-page report with a great wood cover. Well, the other kids turned in, you know, five or 10-page reports. And it was very embarrassing that I thought, "Wow, did I, you know, kind of overdo this thing?" And yet, you know, that ability to concentrate, you know, would hold me in good stead. In terms of reading long books and applying that concentration and curiosity, first to cards, then to math, and then finally to software, and how would software change the world? Uh, but, you know, they never were quite sure what to do. And, you know, sending me to a therapist actually ended up being brilliant. Uh, and sending me to a very nice private school where the classes were a bit smaller. And, you know, I could get, I always got an unfair share of attention from the teachers. You know, we'd have like 15 people in the class, but, you know, almost 20% of the teacher time in terms of telling me what to read or, you know, marking my writing up. You know, I got an unfair share partly because my curiosity or energy level, you know, did mark me out in both positive and negative ways.

Yeah, what influence do you think Dr. Cressy actually had on you? Because therapy at that time, and in your early age, looking back on it now, what do you feel it gave you? What skills did it give you?

Well, it's a very, it was a very rare thing. In fact, the other people coming to him were these couples that were having arguments. And so, in a, I hope, privacy-appropriate way, he would kind of give me a sense of that. He gave me a few IQ tests. He, you know, had me read about Freud and all these things. But slowly but surely, he was saying to me that fighting your parents really has no purpose. I mean, they really do love you. They're on your side. You should apply your energy, uh, towards other things. And, you know, eventually, he made me feel kind of foolish. Like, "Yeah, why was I taking these?" What I thought were kind of arbitrary rules, or where my mom would say, "You should respect me," and I'd say, "Well, you know, I don't know." And a little bit as I figured out, I could understand things like playing cards as well or better than my grandmother, or, you know, I could read books that had complicated things. I was a bit showing off to saying, "Because my cognition is good, why should you be able to set arbitrary rules?" But anyway, I'm embarrassed when I think about it now. Uh, but Dr. Cressy was so encouraging to me in general. And then got across, he probably understood at the first meeting, you know, that I, uh, had to be convinced to make change. But he did it in this super nice way. And, and so the idea that, "No, my parents, yes, they're imperfect, but wow, they're on my side." That changed my behavior.

And did he also have these beautiful ways of, you said he never belittled you, and I believe he used to mention to you, "You're going to win," or he wanted you to win. And I feel like that's what, what did those things do? Because it's almost like you're saying he made you have this, almost this realization that you were wrong, but it seemed like he did it in a very graceful, elegant way. Like, how did he do that?

Absolutely. They, you know, I thought, "Oh, I need to be so clever to win, and I'm going to apply all this energy to win." And so the idea when he says, "No, you're going to win," it's like, "Oh, I see. It's not because I'm clever, it's because it's us. You know, they care for me and they're trying, you know, to help me." And, you know, their main concern is, "Am I ready, you know, to go out in the world? And if I have capabilities, will I develop those and use those?" And, you know, my mom always had a way of kind of pushing me to do more. I said to her once, you know, "You told me to go to the heart of school." And she said, "No, I never actually said that." And I said to her, "Well, wait a minute. When other parents would come over, you'd say, 'How bad they must feel that their kid didn't go to college,' or something like that." So, okay, it was indirect, but, you know, it was kind of there. So, you know, my mom certainly encouraged me, you know, and sometimes I felt overwhelmed by that. But my eventual reaction to just, "Okay, try to outdo any levels she set," and it ended up working out well.

What was something that you didn't value about your mom at that time that now, looking back, you say, "No, I do value that"?

Well, things like table manners. I'm like, "Well, you know, okay, I have to take the ketchup and put it in a bowl and then do this, and I'm not supposed to put my elbows on the table." And, you know, she was just, you know, trying to make sure I was, uh, civilized. A little bit, you know, uh, what I would wear. And they definitely got me engaged with adults. You know, my social skills were slow to develop with people other than a few boys like myself. But with adults, because they were having them over, and I, you know, got so I could ask those adults to talk about what they were doing, that was really valuable to me. Because I ended up, through that and through one of my early friends, having more of an outlook of, "Okay, where am I headed?" at quite a young age, which was super helpful.

It's so funny, as I was reading the book, I was reminded of, so when I graduated from college, I didn't go to my graduation ceremony because I left to become a monk. And my parents, they were very kind and accepting of my decision. But my mother still has this feeling that she doesn't have a picture of me graduating wearing the hat and, you know, holding my certificate. And I remember I was having the same feeling that you were, where my mom would always say to me, "Oh, when I go to my friend's houses, they're telling me about all the jobs that their kids are doing and the apartment they just moved into, and you're just there being a monk." Like, you know, she'd say that to me. And it was always kind of feeling like that, that sense of pressure to live up to something she wanted me to do, even though there was love and there was acceptance. And I was wondering for you, like, you, you said it yourself, she was such a powerhouse, she had such high expectations. When did you feel that you reached that, or do you feel you've reached that?

Well, unfortunately, my mom passed away in her early 60s. She, she got breast cancer. And so I had gotten married six months before she passed away. So she never got to see that. I tried to follow her example as a parent. She never got to see the foundation get going. My dad actually ran the foundation and got it off to a fantastic start, so he was involved. But her sort of dictate about, "Okay, if you are successful, you have to give back." It's a shame that she didn't get to kind of participate and see that I'm fulfilling what she said, despite all the times I pushed back on her.

Do you still feel that today? That it's almost like she, her voice is in your head, and she's present in that way?

Oh, absolutely. The, you know, the sense I have of, "Okay, I've got to do this and do that." Well, that's, you know, really came from her. My dad more set the example of being calm and thoughtful, you know, also great, great values. But much, you know, it wasn't through the interaction. He would, you know, leave pretty early. And if my mom had to escalate to call him in, you knew you better give in, because that was kind of the ultimate thing. But, yeah, so each in their own way, he through example, her through high expectations, deserve a lot of credit. And, you know, part of this book is to really honor them, and two of the young friends I had who set me on a great path.

Well, it's pretty insane. This is a world where somebody can have over a hundred billion dollars. I mean, that, you know, what is that? You know, you don't want to just give that to children and create some dynasty. That's not even a favor to them. Sadly, the wealth metric is an easier one to compute than, you know, the impact you've had philanthropically. I have a good friendship both with Jeff Bezos and Mark Zuckerberg. Elon stands by himself. Maybe that drives everybody else together? I don't know.

I was wondering, what was your biggest realization about your father from writing this book?

It's weird. I've always underestimated how incredible my father was. His values, even the exchange with my mom, you know, before they get married. Um, his one of his dreams was to be a federal judge, and he eventually, that was offered to him. And because his law firm would have had great difficulty, he said, "No, I'm not going to do that." And I had written him a note saying, "Gosh, I hope it's not because you had to pay all that tuition that you're not getting to do this." And I'd forgotten he'd written me back such a nice note. So, you know, in digging through, I'm amazed we end up keeping those things. It was so touching to me. Now, I, you know, I'll spend my whole life trying to live up to the example he set.

What was it like finding that reply, forgetting that he had replied? I mean, no.

Well, certainly it brings tears to my eyes because, you know, he was incredible. And towards the end of his life, we did get a little more direct, you know, where he would say, "Hey, I'm sorry I worked so hard." And I'd say, "No, no, that was fine to, uh, to be doing that." You know, and so instead of things being sort of through my mom when she was gone, he had to build up that communication in a way that was far more intimate. You know, I feel lucky that he lived as long as he did.

How did, how does that, as that relationship evolves? Like, it felt like when I was reading Source Code, I felt like your father was there to always save you in these moments. Like he'd pick up the phone, he'd be involved in, you know, talking to you and your friends. Like he was there in these very pivotal moments that felt like almost professional support from him, of course, based on his intelligence and background as well. But it sounds like that evolved to a much more emotive, intimate space. Like, what does that look like for a father and a son across all those years?

You know, and when I was going off to college, you know, I'd call my parents every couple of weeks. But, you know, you couldn't like text and send photos and so. But I always knew, you know, that they were supportive. And so I actually got into a little bit of trouble where I'd taken my colleagues into the computer center and done some of the early Microsoft BASIC work. And the college, as they filled the position to supervise that computer center, we're like, "Wow, did you break the rules?" And, you know, my dad was always so kind of wise, you know, when I ever was like, "Oh my God, I may have screwed up here. I better get on top of this." You know, that's a time where I call him in, and his advice is very helpful. You know, then later, we have a customer who's not paying us, and our very first customer. Another case where my dad encouraged me to stay the course. So it wasn't in those days that I talked to him a lot, but that when I was in trouble, he was the one person, you know, who was so sophisticated and, you know, on my side, that his advice really did help at a lot of key turning points. And, you know, then later, when we have a relationship where we actually talk intimately, I was able to to thank him for that.

Do you remember one of the final conversations you had with him?

Well, he got Alzheimer's, and he, because he was such a nice person, he was still like super nice. You know, always worried, "Did his caregivers get enough meals?" Or, you know, eventually, the fact he grew up in the Depression showed, because he'd be worried about, "Are we buying too expensive a meal?" You know, even though he had as much money as he could ever need. You know, so, you know, we got back to his basic character, which was just very friendly and thoughtful. So, yes, I feel like in his case, we did have those conversations that I never got to have with my mom.

There's the one phone call you described, the three words he used of "I hear you," when he was talking to the school. And that left such a strong imprint. Could you tell us why that was such a big moment for you at that time?

Well, I was in this contract discussion with this group I thought owed me some computer time. So that's the first time that my dad is pitching in to help. And, you know, I thought, "What's he going to do? Is he going to threaten them or be tough on them?" And no, not at all. The fact that they sort of gave their side of the argument, and then he just simply said, "I hear you." Which was this very way of saying, "You know, I don't agree with that. Let's try and reach a compromise here. You have your point of view." So just the way he said, "I hear you," you know, kept things really calm, didn't acknowledge or attack their position, so we could get on to the, "Hey, you know, if you meet these guys halfway, isn't that okay for both of you?" Here, which is what eventually came out of it. And so the idea of being subtle and helping to find that common ground, I was young enough that that kind of blew my mind. Yeah, wow, you can kind of hold your ground but without being provocative.

What would you say is the one way your mother influenced your parenting style, and then your father influenced your parenting style?

Well, this idea that is actually kind of school called "Love and Logic," where you make expectations to the child very, very clear, and you make consequences very, very clear. And in an unemotional way, you say, "No, you're going to have to go to your room because we agreed if you did this, that's what happens." My dad practiced that approach. My mom probably wanted to, but then if she was frustrated, you know, she'd be, "Oh, I'm so disappointed," and kind of bring emotion into it. So the intensity of how much my mom cared, I think that was great. And I think kind of that calm, predictable, "Hey, the world works in a clear way, and you know, I'm on top of the world, and here's what I need from you." You know, that very much came from my dad. So I tried to be a little more around, you know, my wife Melinda deserves all the credit, you know, that our kids have come out so well because she was really around. But I tried to be, that's the one thing I did a bit differently than my dad was, was more, more intense vacation time, a little bit more of a direct communication, not through their mother.

How did you reconcile that towards the end about your father's style and how did you make space for that and accept that in that generation?

You know, my dad's career was a very big thing. In fact, having all sorts of adults around for events, you know, was connected to his career. And, you know, he did very well. He was a top lawyer in Seattle. So I never resented the idea that my dad was very busy. You know, you had kids early, you know, the man's career is important. Later, my mom also, not only is doing volunteer activities, but as people wanted women on boards because she had the right background, she got a huge number of those opportunities. And she got a little busy herself. You know, I don't think the amount of time is the only key factor there.

Yeah, I'd have to agree. I was, when I was reading it too, I was thinking that. And this is what I found so interesting, Bill, when I was reading Source Code, that even though you have lived such an otherworldly life in so many ways, there were so many relatable moments from a parenting standpoint. And when I was reading it, I was thinking about my father too, who wasn't around a lot when I was younger. He was working. Both my parents had to work. And to the point you just made right now, like my father wasn't there when I was playing rugby, or he wasn't there when I was swimming for my local club, or he wasn't there on the sidelines cheering. And for me, that really allowed me to become the man I wanted to be. And it allowed me to have more freedom, almost, to not feel like there was this heavy expectation. And I've always seen that as a positive thing because it allowed me to have a broader definition of what it meant to be a man, what it meant to be a son, what it meant to go off and discover something that I was passionate about. And so even seeing you kind of having your mother be the one who was almost, you know, pushing the expectation and what the family should be, but then having a bit of freedom, it was interesting to see how that impacted you to be able to push back, to be able to, you know, even at one point, like you said in that letter, parent him almost in his decision. And played that role. So it was refreshing for me to read a book about you where I was, where I was actually seeing parts of myself in certain relationships in a very relatable way. Did you, did you ever anticipate that when you were writing it?

I was surprised. You know, so when I'm describing going on those hikes, I was thinking, "Boy, would I have let my son go off?" And we really are holding back children a bit more, you know, out of a sense of, okay, ultimate safety, I guess. But, you know, in that generation, I was allowed to take trips and hikes, and I think it benefited me. And so writing the book, I was like, "Wow." And you've talked with people like Jonathan Haidt about this, "Are we a bit overprotecting?" You know, kids so that they don't get to make mistakes or try themselves out or mature the way that is best for them.

Do you think schools are failing children?

If you have 30 people in a class, it's pretty tough. You're going to have some kids who are behind and some who are ahead. You know, even the best teacher has got a big challenge with that. Education, I wouldn't say is much better or worse today than a few decades ago. We've always thought, "Okay, when we bring the computer in, will that be helpful?" And certainly, if you want to find information, it's been great. We're still working on that now with AI. Maybe a personal tutor will be encouraging and work on your level. It's early days, but I've been out seeing some of that in classrooms. People like Sal Khan with Khan Academy, that our foundation is helping to support. But education, the computer has not made it so, wow, kids learn a lot more today than they did a long time ago. And I still believe we can change that. But it means if you're in one of those large classes, you can feel lost. And, you know, we're missing great human potential.

You tend to manage other people the way you manage yourself. The first time I felt it was when I was hiring people who moved their family and they had kids, and I was like, "If I can't pay this guy's check, this is rude." You know, he's got a real problem, and I'm kind of implicitly promising him, "I've got this thing figured out." So that scared me.

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What are we getting wrong? Because it sounds like you felt maybe the computer would give people that impetus and the ability to download more and learn more. Where have we gone wrong?

Well, the key is motivation. If you have a kid who's super motivated, then yes, going to the Khan website and doing hours of math problems, that's great. But in a way, that takes the kid who's in that top 20% and makes him even more intimidating to the others. And, you know, people can come in. If a kid in eighth grade says, "Is math a subject you have any confidence in?" If they answer no to that, they're five times more likely to drop out. And so we do lose kids, and it's more out of motivation. And so most of the stuff we've done on the computer is about, "Okay, if you are motivated, we'll help you out," and not so much about how you make it feel relevant to them and give them a sense of success. And maybe this time around, with these AI personal tutors, we'll get that right. But kids check out of, "No, I'm not one of those kids who's good at math," even though for a lot of professions, and, you know, for college courses, we require Algebra 2 tests to be passed in order to go on, and, you know, even be a nurse or a policeman. So we have work to do. Yeah, but more on the motivational side.

Yeah, I really, I really appreciate you saying that, actually. Because I do think that we think about changing education is so theoretical and functional, but it is the drive, it is the motivation. And I was thinking about how we put limits on ourselves. When I finished sixth grade, I remember before I went to high school, my favorite subject was math in sixth grade, and my least favorite subject was art. And then when I finished high school, my most favorite subject was art, and my least favorite subject was math. And it was just fascinating to me how that completely flipped over a seven-year period. And as I've grown up in my own life, I found that art and design, philosophy, economics are far more where I naturally gravitate toward. But so much of that up until sixth grade was the limits or the things that were expected of me, as opposed to what I was motivated and driven towards. And I was thinking about something you said in the book, you said that if you were growing up today, you would have been diagnosed with being on the autism spectrum. And I was wondering, how would that have affected you? How do you think that would have affected you?

Yeah, I'm fascinated by that because for some people, being given a label is a pejorative to them, and almost feels shameful. Although we know, you know, being on the spectrum gives you almost some superpowers of concentration that if you find the right place, it can be helpful. Other people, they're glad when they get that because then it, they say, "Oh, that's why my social skills were slow to develop," and, you know, "Here's some strategies that people like me have used. I'm not alone in this. I fit into this." And it's actually a reasonably common thing. There isn't like some medicine, ADHD, you know, which I probably also would have been diagnosed with. They do have Focalin, after all, a variety of things they give kids for that. And I still wonder about that. I haven't chosen as an adult to get a diagnosis or use those medicines. I think eventually you learn to adapt. I still kind of rock a little bit that when I'm thinking hard, and without even knowing it, and it does bother people sometimes. And that's definitely kind of a, what they call self-simulation behavior, that makes it pretty likely I fit into that diagnosis.

Do you think it would have changed your trajectory of success? Have you thought about that?

Or I worry that I might have thought of it as pejorative. It's really how you communicate it. I mean, if you say, "Hey, here's a kid who doesn't socialize at all, and you're destined to never be good at those things." You know, obviously, to create a company, hire people, motivate people, go out and sell the dream of computing, I've had to, even though I'm not a natural, develop a lot of social behaviors. And it might have discouraged me unless it was done in a very tasteful way. You know, I think of that Dr. Cressy experience, where he didn't make me feel terrible while enlightening me that I was wasting my time, as well as my parents' time.

Did you continue therapy after that, or ever go?

Yes, again. Most periods of my life, I found it useful to have a therapist where I'm talking to about, you know, what's confusing or what's troubling. I think, you know, I'm very lucky to have that. I think particularly if you have a life where some extreme things happen, that luck is a huge part of that to keep you on the ground. A good therapist can play an invaluable role there. So, yeah, I've benefited to this day from those kind of conversations.

Well, I was thinking about in the book, obviously, you beautifully introduced us to Kent, and obviously the loss of Kent seems to be a place in your memory that's naturally so difficult and fuzzy. And you talk about in the book how you're not quite sure what your parents would have said, and how it all felt. And I was just wondering if there were any, did you have support at that time through therapy and other ways to deal with that grief?

No, and I've been looking recently. People like Anderson Cooper are talking about, "Okay, how do you deal with grief?" And a lot of what they come up with is that if you can keep talking about the person and what you got from them, you're kind of honoring them. You know, Kent's parents obviously were the most affected by this because, you know, they would never have this incredible son, and who would have no doubt gone off and done incredible things. And I remember spending time with them for like a year afterwards, and then feeling a bit guilty that as I got busy, I didn't do that as much. You know, in the book, I actually start out where I've seen Kent's father. I run into him right as I'm starting work on the book, and, you know, we can talk about what a great influence he had on me. And, you know, so I did, I did think that was helpful. But boy, it took me a long time because death, it was just such a shocking thing. I have this idyllic childhood, other than Kent's death, nothing at all traumatic. And we're talking all the time, you know, a little bit. I reach out to Paul to kind of feel Paul Allen, who goes on to found Microsoft with me, to step in and be that super close friend. But back then, the idea of how you dealt with trauma was mostly, "Hey, buck up, get on with things," which after a few months, I did.

And also at that time, you're talking about how he actually invited you on the trip he went to, and like you're talking just before he goes off, and then all of a sudden you're like, "Wait a minute, we used to talk every day." Or, you know, and that it can feel so disassociated from yourself in that moment. It feels like, how did you revisit that? When did you kind of turn towards working through the grief?

As you wrote the book, did it feel like you were revisiting it? Because definitely, you know, at that high school, when I built a hall in his name, and gone out there and talked a little bit about the role that Kent played in my evolution, you know, so some efforts to honor him. Sadly, you know, Paul Allen, also the other key friend in this book, died I think about six years ago from cancer. And, you know, he also was very key at getting me on the right path. And there wouldn't be, you know, without those two friends, you know, there really wouldn't probably wouldn't be anything like Microsoft.

You talk about how Paul was setting you little challenges and would ask you to try this or do that, and then you'd go ahead. And I was thinking, how amazing to have a friend that could motivate and inspire you in that way. And then I was thinking about what you just said when I was reading the book, that it felt like you told so many stories of so many people in your life that are no longer here now. And so grief wasn't just about Kent or Paul, it was, there's so many individuals that you've had life with that you're having to process that with. What has been helpful for you, genuinely, deeply inside, that has led to some sort of helpful direction with that grief of writing a book about all these wonderful people that you've lost?

Well, most of my life has been about looking forward. Yeah, and, "Okay, let's get this innovation, let's do it first." And, you know, whether it's software, saving children's lives, which is the big foundation thing. And it is a little bit unnatural for me to look back because you have to say, "Okay, how do I describe my relationship with my mom in an open, honest way and yet honor her?" You know, "How do I talk about Kent, where I don't know if he'd lived what would have happened, but probably something that he would have very much been a part of it?" And so it's awkward to look back because you have to deal with these things and talk about, "Should I have spent more time with his parents afterwards?" You know, because eventually I stopped doing that. But, you know, this year I turned 70. Mentally, I don't feel like I think of a 70-year-old. But, you know, it means, you know, I'm in the final third, no doubt, of what I've been very lucky to live. And so, you know, I really did force myself. I know there's some lessons out of this, you know, telling people how lucky I was, and maybe a few lessons for them as parents or how they navigate success. And so once we got going on it, I've enjoyed it quite a bit, I have to say. When I'm reviewing it and editing it, I'm very slow because I'm reliving these things. So it always takes me about three times longer to take some pages and edit than I predict, or if it was something like about climate or pandemics, you know, I'm pretty fast. There's no deep emotion that I have to relive as I'm editing something scientific.

What was your favorite part to relive, and what was the hardest part to relive?

Well, everything about the fascination we had. And you're like, "What? We see this thing. These computers are going to be amazing, but no one else is saying that. So we must be wrong." That's crazy. And, you know, that contradiction. So, you know, Paul actually, I helped him get a job out in Boston so he could be out there and bugging me that, "Okay, should we go build a company?" And then finally, when this Kit computer, which is so limited, but it's the beginning of the revolution, when that comes out, then, you know, Paul's argument, "We should go and do something," he wins because we don't want to be left behind. We want to be there from the very beginning. And then we meet a few people, although it was still very small, we meet other people like Steve Wozniak, Steve Jobs, who also have been infected with this idea of, "Okay, we're onto something that is going to be huge."

Paul, I mean, the research that you did to find in this book, I was, every time I was reading, I was just like, "How do you have so much detail?" I was really blown away by the level of detail both in the storytelling, every moment. And then even there's that note that you have that says, "Steve Jobs called, was rude." And I was just like, you know, even just having that back then. I was laughing as I read it. And I was wondering, like, I feel like from the outside, and naturally, and you talk about this later on in the book, how we see people as this sliver of who they are, and people have a public profile, and that becomes their brand. And if you look at it from the outside, you see Steve Jobs and yourself having this competition, envy, jealousy, kind of like arch-rival, nemesis kind of portrayal. What was it actually like? Because it in the book, it comes across much more inviting them as opposed to this kind of harsh rivalry.

Well, I had a fantastic relationship with Steve. You know, early on, I got to do the BASIC, which they called Apple BASIC, that went with every Apple II computer. So I worked with both Jobs and Wozniak to get that done. Then later, as Steve has a kind of small group inside Apple doing the Macintosh, he invited Microsoft to write application software, a spreadsheet, word processor for it. And so we actually had as many people as they did, and we worked very closely on that project. And he and I loved the fact that that ended up being a key Apple product. Um, then he leaves Apple. I talk to him about NeXT, but I never thought that computer would do that well. So he was disappointed. But then when he goes back, and he's on it, it's unbelievable what a great job he did because Apple went from being on the way to die to being the world's most valuable company. And Steve had really matured. And it was something. And I, you know, we helped write software for that. Then later, when Steve is sick, we had about five different conversations where we got to talk about kids and, you know, had computers done well. And, you know, where he was pretty thoughtful. It's amazing to me that Steve, his skill set and mine, other than, okay, you know, madman leader, drawing people in, but his taste in design and user interface, and even his intuition about people, he was just genius in a way you can't explain. He didn't look at code and write code, whereas, you know, my thing is, "Hey, I'm an engineer. Here's the code, let's make it faster and smaller." So actually, that allowed us to get along because, you know, what he was super good at, I was not good at. I envied those just incredible talents that he has. In some ways, he's more singular. You know, if you say to me, "Are there other people like you who are great at writing code and conceptualizing?" Yeah, I can name a number of people, including many who worked with me. But I don't know somebody who's, who I say, "Oh yeah, you know, he's just like Steve Jobs." Wow.

Well, that's very humble of you as well. I mean, that's it's beautiful to hear. What were some of those final conversations like that you had with him that were potentially? I always felt like he was so philosophical, and maybe more so in those moments.

Yeah, we did one public appearance, you know, where we were being thoughtful about the friendship. Walt Mossberg had us on stage together, which was definitely a fun thing and surprised people because Steve was very harsh. You know, he was a, you know, he said we were the General Motors and he was like the Mercedes. But, you know, all in, it was all very fair. Well, we reflected that computers really hadn't improved education. And we're both, he and I, had given speeches saying, "Of course, this will make education five times better." And we're like, "Wow, we got that one wrong." Maybe, maybe next round, we'll deliver on that promise. And, you know, how unusual it was, even a little lonely, that when you were so successful, and then you're having doubts about, "Are we making mistakes here?" Both of us had had kids by then. He was actually, of course, he not only did Apple, he did the Pixar stuff. And because that was a realm I'm not in, I could sincerely tell him what a brilliant job he did. Now, partly picking people, but that's kind of amazing. Now part of Disney. And both a sense of thankfulness, although, you know, he was very, and just hoping some new drug would come along. And tragically, it didn't.

Was there a memorable piece of advice or conversation where you said something to him, or he said something to you, that has stayed with you?

Well, the fact that, you know, why were we both so competitive and pushing ahead? I think both of us, in his case, he's an orphan, so he has a more complicated childhood that maybe can explain his zeal. I don't have any like that. You know, even though Kent died, that's not why. Well, before that, I was somehow always pushing as hard as I could be.

And you know, I think both of us, you know, being thankful for what we'd been able to work on. I mean, you know, we got more of a front-row seat and helped build this thing. Steve never got around to doing philanthropy. Now, his, uh, widow, Lauren, is doing great philanthropy. So, you know, that's, uh, I'm sure he, he'd be proud of that, but he didn't get to that stage, and I was just getting into that stage. So I shared with him a little bit about, "Wow, a lot of children die, and we don't do much to stop that." And that kind of intrigued him, but then he never got to pursue it.

Yeah, you're, you're reminding me of something I read in Bob Iger's book, where he was talking about how there was a time when Spielberg, George Lucas, they'd all sit together, and then they'd watch each other's movies and give them feedback. And they all felt very confident doing that because they knew their strengths and their uniqueness were so diverse. And so they didn't feel threatened that, "Oh, well, Steph's going to steal my idea," or, you know, "George Lucas is going to steal my idea." Because they felt so confident. And it sounds like even for yourself, as competitors, to talk, to have a relationship. Does that still happen today? Do, do competitors talk? Do they pick up the phone to each other, or is that very rare? Because it feels like it feels definitely now so less.

I have a, a good friendship both with, uh, Jeff Bezos and Mark Zuckerberg. Elon stands by himself. Uh, maybe that drives everybody else together. I don't know. Uh, and, you know, over time, I think Elon, uh, as he gets older, maybe he'll mellow out a little bit. And, uh, you know, probably be an incredible philanthropist based on everything else that he's done. But yes, there is some good conversation. You know, Larry Ellison is now in a phase where he's doing some excellent, uh, philanthropy. And we're all a bit more reflectable. I mean, hopefully, by the time you get to 70, you've been, you've been hyper successful, you can, you know, relax and let your guard down a little bit and, you know, laugh about, uh, the things you got wrong.

Yeah, what, what was some of the advice that you've given to Mark, or especially earlier on his journey, or even more recently?

Well, you know, Microsoft, the one big challenge we had is we were so successful by the late '90s that we got into antitrust difficulties. And in retrospect, we could have handled that better. And so I've been very, uh, open with Mark. You know, I used to brag that I didn't have an office in DC and I didn't, you know, what a great country, that I didn't have to talk to politicians. Well, that was a mistake. Uh, and, you know, now, you know, you've got all of them going to the inauguration. And, you know, so they're not, they're not making that mistake. Uh, maybe they have, they corrected too much in the other direction. Well, you know, his history will, will judge. So, yeah, I'm, you know, it's weird to be kind of an elder statesman.

You know, Satya, who runs Microsoft, has done such a, a brilliant job. And you, one of my great fears when I left Microsoft to go do philanthropy was how bad I would feel if it wasn't doing well. And so Steve Ballmer did a great job, and now Satya with this AI generation. So I, that's another great blessing is that not only the value of the stock, but also the fact I can just focus on, "Okay, what about polio and malaria?" You know, knowing that they're, they're taking the, the company to new heights. You know, what, what a great blessing, uh, that's been for me.

Yeah, it seems like, I love what you were just saying now that, you know, maybe there'll be a time when Elon turns to philanthropy. And you talked about others. And it, and it seems that that turning point for you is so key. And I feel like you were one of the first, not that it wasn't done before, but one of the first to do it in a really big way, to be able to move away from this big company that you founded, world-changing, um, generation-changing, and then turning to that and that service element. To me, I was intrigued as to why do you believe that that's almost where every one of these people need to go? Like, why is it that you believe that turning to a life of service and giving back is core for Elon, whoever else it may be?

Well, it's pretty insane. This is a world where somebody can have over a hundred billion dollars. I mean, that, you know, what is that? And it's not, you know, you don't want to just give that to children and create some dynasty. That's not even a favor to them. You want to give that back. So these are unprecedented fortunes. And if you're a great innovator and you know how to gather scientists together and think about problems, then there are some government is risk-averse, and particularly poor countries don't have that capacity to think about eradicating malaria or solving malnutrition. It, there is something that philanthropy can have these outsized results in terms of lives saved, almost like, you know, a great startup, uh, does on the, uh, of innovation. So getting those minds to turn those capacities to equity, to the poorest, both inside the US and outside the US. You know, I feel that, you know, we've got the Golden Rule. We're, we're supposed to care about people. There are times when it feels like sympathy for poor people outside the country is lower today, uh, than it's been. But I know that'll come back around because of the, the moral logic there. I think, uh, I, I believe is, is very, very strong. And I, you know, I found it so fulfilling. You, I created a, a group called The Giving Pledge of of people who've, uh, committed to give the majority of their wealth away. And we learn from each other, hopefully, we inspire each other, and hopefully, we change the societal expectations that if you have even a modest fortune, most of it should combine with your, your talents and make the world a, a bit more of a, a fair, fair place.

Yeah, I think I, I think it's absolutely brilliant because I was really fortunate when I, when I went out and lived, uh, as part of my time as a monk in India. We helped, uh, put together a well, the monks were doing already, but I got to be a part of it. Uh, helped build a, um, daily food distribution service in India that feeds a million kids a day. And it was all in exactly what you're saying, like to help the malnutrition children. And now they're even trying to figure out how much protein into having it. Lear, like trying to figure out the actual composition as well. And I remember seeing that so early in my life. Like I would have gone out there first time in my teens, and then later on when I became a monk in my early 20s. But the reason I raise it is because I think it goes back to what the point you made earlier about motivation. And one thing I've really been trying to figure out with the right partner recently is how, when I grew up, I remember my dad used to read the rich list. And he'd have the rich list, like the Sunday Times, or whatever it was. And so as a kid, I would see my dad. And on the back of it would be the rich list. And I was thinking, "How incredible would it be if kids grew up with a service list?" And how would that change motivation? Because I feel we reward, we repeat what we reward. And I feel like we've never really seen that case study yet, up until maybe, you know, your case study and, and the people that are following with The Giving Pledge, that service becomes a natural part of life at that scale. I think we see it in smaller communities. You see people with very little actually doing so much, but you don't necessarily see it at that level. And so I find that changing that drive and motivation early on, which it seems like your mother had for you, your impact of faith had in you. I think that could be huge. I don't know what you think about people seeing a service list instead of a rich list, or whatever the right word is.

Sadly, the wealth metric is an easier one to compute than, you know, the impact you've had philanthropically. And part of the beauty of philanthropy is there's many causes out there. You know, I've tried to think through, "Okay, you know, since we know how to save lives for $1,000 per life saved, wow, we better, you know, use this money, uh, as absolutely best we can." And I do think we're going to see a rise in philanthropy. I mean, you know, these fortunes are almost illegitimate unless they are in a very smart way given back. If it's consumption, if it's dynasty, I don't think society should feel that good about it. And, you know, I, I sat down with Bernie Sanders, and he said, "No, he would outlaw billionaires." I, I think that's a mistake. I think allowing in America, in particular, wild innovation, wild risk-taking, is good. But then on the backside of that, there, there should be a strong expectation. And I think role models help a lot. You know, Warren Buffett, in a very different industry, very different skill set, you know, he's always been a role model. And was the one who, who even when I was, uh, still building the fortune, said, "Okay, your mom is right. You know, and here's some books you should read." You know, Carnegie's Gospel of Wealth, the history of what Rockefeller did. And, you know, because this will be an important, as as important a measure of your impact as, as making the money.

Yeah, I think that's such a brilliant lesson and wonderful one to pass on. What I think it was Trump who mentioned recently that you'd asked to see him to have a discussion. Did that meeting ever happen?

Yeah, I had a, a very long and actually very impressive dinner. In terms of, he asked good questions. You know, I talked about over 10 million people are alive because of US generosity with HIV medicines, going back to, uh, President Bush in 2003. And, you know, I encourage him to keep that as a priority and to accelerate innovation. You know, there's an idea that you might be able to cure AIDS that we're working on, and he could help accelerate that. I talked about polio eradication and how, uh, his leadership and the US government resources are very important there. And, you know, I'm sure everybody's trying to meet with him. The fact he gave me that long period of time was actually pretty thoughtful in his questions. You know, somebody may come along later and tell him to cut that money, but I make the argument as best I can, uh, that, you know, the moral purpose of the US and how we're thought of. And, you know, the fact that a cure is, is on its way, that's worthwhile. You know, so this administration in, in charge, and, you know, trying to help them, you know, they're willing to cancel old things, some of which should maybe be canceled, some which shouldn't. You know, so they're, you know, helping direct them so they'll use their open-mindedness to do different things and try and make that come out well. I, you, I think that's, that's worth trying.

Yeah, what, what do you see as the moral purpose of the United States, and the way you mentioned it just now?

Well, we've been the shining light of not only being a democracy ourselves and, you know, having political opponents respect each other and work well together, but also, you know, saying that even though we're in this very powerful position, we won't abuse that position. And, okay, if we allowed ourselves, you know, to let other people spend too little on some things, you know, there's, there's a balance there. But if you become too much of a bully and you're not keeping democracy, which, you know, requires reducing the polarization, uh, and bridging some of these divides, and that's a little bit scary. You know, democracy is a, a fragile concept. And particularly at a time when AI is coming along, and the government will have to play a strong role and saying, "Okay, these jobs have been lost, but we're more productive overall, and therefore here's how we help, uh, those people." You know, how do we keep AI as a primarily beneficial thing versus a, a thing that bad people use and it messes up these job markets? That I expect the 2028 presidential debate AI policies will be the most important thing. And I was a little bit surprised in this election that wasn't, uh, discussed hardly at all.

Yeah, that's such a good point. I, I didn't actually think of that, but you're right, it didn't, it didn't come up.

A tool. Yeah, that's f- what, how, I mean, how do you prepare for something like that? It would need, need to be surrounded by the right people and having the parties.

Well, you've got to educate everyone. You know, you can't count on the technologists to shape these things. You know, social networking, we're still arguing about what the policy should be. And, you know, the fact that algorithms reward outrageous things that even if they're not at all factual, and AI heightens all of that. And, you know, this is an era where getting the politicians to see the technology, including all this good stuff, personal tutors, better medical care, even making the government more efficient. You know, this is the most promising set of tools because bureaucratic paperwork, you know, AI is actually pretty darn good at at reading and, uh, processing, uh, those kinds of things. So, you know, we're on the precipice of the AI breakthroughs. The reliability and, uh, capabilities, you know, it's kind of an extension of what I worked on as a, a child, you know, personal computers, then internet, then cell phones, and now AI. But it's because it's, it's super intelligence. It's of a different character. And we'll, it'll put us to the test on how we work together within the US and how, how countries work together.

Yeah, it's, uh, interesting because as you talking about social media there, I think Mark Zuckerberg on Joe Rogan was saying that they are taking away their fact-checkers. And I believe X is doing something similar. What was your take on that? You know, this whole thing of how you balance free speech versus not, you know, discouraging people from using vaccines when that would be beneficial for them, or even extreme stuff like Holocaust denial, or some bad things there.

I'm a little bit disappointed that my generation hasn't got a clear prescription to how, uh, we achieve both the goals, free speech, and yet, uh, uh, reasonable discourse that's not misleading people. I mean, during the pandemic, you know, the negativity about vaccines, some of which, you know, had me being some, you know, weird misbehaving actor, you know, which was a lot of craziness. You know, clearly over a million people died who should have benefited, uh, from the vaccine. And next time, you know, whether it's an out-of-control AI or the next pandemic, the impact of of not getting facts out could be much more dramatic. I mean, the next, you could have a pathogen that was 10 times or 20 times as fatal as COVID was. Particularly once H comes along, the fatality rate is actually reasonably modest, and and mostly older people. So politics meets AI, uh, is, is where a lot of our fates will be determined, even in the, the next 10 years.

And how do you see a role in that?

Well, hopefully, there's some things I, I really do, uh, understand about that. And whether it's giving advice to Microsoft, in my foundation work on education and health, you know, using it. You know, the place where you have the greatest shortage of teachers and doctors is in poor countries in Africa. And so the fact that these things, you know, can give farmers advice, and give a pregnant woman advice, and look at what your kid is eating and say, "No, you need more protein in this diet." And it's essentially free, you know, the way that computing was free that I saw when I was young. Now we're getting into this even more radical thing of intelligence will, uh, basically be free. You know, that's kind of wild stuff. So I hope both with some specific ideas, but then with the lessons of a past of, you know, where we've been able to shape things so far, you know, so that I think personal computing has largely been an empowering thing. You know, I was reading this book Nexus where Harari says, then when the printing press comes along, it actually is books about witches, uh, and how you find witches that are the best-selling. So just thinking because we have new capabilities that we necessarily use them at first in a net beneficial way, that's sadly a, a naive concept.

Yeah, that, I mean, you've raised such a good point there. Even this idea, I loved what you said that you said you wish your generation could have figured out how to have not have these extreme polarizing conversations, but actually find this healthy middle ground, whether that be through algorithms, whether that be through how we use technology. What is it that, why do we keep doing that? It almost feels like that's a repeated mistake where we come across this horizon of this new world, new technology, new ideas, but then we always use it for almost the same thing, or something that feels, you know, insignificant compared to what it could do. Where, where are we going wrong? Why can't we get that right?

Well, it's kind of amazing how well humanity has done. You know, the, you know, the violent death rate over hundreds of years have gone down a lot. You know, more recently, we've gotten, uh, vaccines out to children and gotten the annual death rate from 10 million a year at the turn of the century down to about 5 million. Vaccines being the biggest, uh, part of that, because we got them out to most of the world's children. So humanity, for a, a being that grew up in these small hunter-gatherer groups, now, you know, we have big cities, complex technology. Our ability to get along, you know, in some ways has been good. You know, nuclear weapons that when I was young, you know, my greatest fear was, "Okay, there was going to be a nuclear war." And I do worry the current generation, uh, doesn't have that exposure to it. So, you know, the arms treaties and, you know, spending too much money on building those weapons. I do worry that we've lost, uh, track on that one. But at least, you know, we haven't, uh, used those. And, you know, we've done pretty well so far. And, you know, will we this time? I think this is, is probably the hardest innovation because, you know, we do have human limitations. They, even I, when I see an outrageous article against somebody I don't like politically, I'm very tempted to click on it and have it tell me, "Yeah, he's even stupider than you thought," or, you know, "He, this is a mistake." You know, we're all, uh, subject, uh, to that. And, and we do like to form into groups. But, you know, all of humanity, ideally, is a group where philanthropically and, you know, government generosity, we can think of ourselves being part of that, as opposed to much, you know, our clan or, uh, race or nation.

Yeah, I think on a global level, it requires what you were saying. And on a personal level, it requires us to almost be able to evaluate, assimilate, assess, you know, have, have self-awareness, allow for self-reflection, space for, you know, the things we don't have time for anymore. You know, I was, uh, looking into something called the Third Space Theory. And how in the past, you had your home, you had work, and then you had church or temple or community center. And how those three spaces, that third space was a place you could look back on home and work and say, "I could treat my wife a little bit better," or "I could have spoken to my colleague a bit better." And that third space allowed that time and energy where it was all about reflecting on how you could improve. But today, we've lost three spaces into two into one, where we work from home, live at home, and the screen is our third space. And so that lack of having a physical body or building that gives you permission to step back from your whole life, not play a role there, and actually survey what's going on in your life, we've lost that.

Yeah, that's a shame. Uh, you know, the decline of religion is a, a very strong trend. You'd hope there'd be a modern religion that takes whatever is put people off, and yet preserves kind of this Golden Rule and this, "Okay, at a local community level, we're supposed to help each other." If you expect government to figure out how to solve things, you know, it's too bureaucratic. The local church-based groups, "Oh, this person needs help. I have extra time." You know, is way more effective. And so we expect too much from government, in a way. So I hope we can re-energize, you know, perhaps through a type of religious modernization, or maybe just a community thing that is maybe spiritual, but not, not, uh, labeled as, as religion. That local engagement where you see other people, that I think we need more of it.

Absolutely, absolutely. Bill, I've got you for a couple more moments. And, uh, there's a few things I wanted to ask you. One was, you talked about how in the book, how being the smartest person in the room, and that status was something that you may be hid behind, and your insecurities were hidden behind. And I was wondering, is that something that you've been able to put down, and God, and take that away as time has moved on? How, how were you able to do that?

Yeah, I've mellowed a little bit. Uh, you know, to learn how to work with people who are intelligent in different ways. You know, Microsoft, I had to get marketing, sales. At the foundation, you know, people who go out in the field and do heroic work. And so my, you know, sort of single view of, "Okay, math capacity is, you know, this, this great thing." I've, I've mellowed and, you know, been able to bring in different skill sets. But no, I, I started off being pretty bad at that.

What were those insecurities that you were hiding?

Well, you, you tend to manage other people the way you manage yourself. And so when I make a mistake in programming or math, I'm very tough on myself. And, you know, I'm like, "You need to spend more time, you need to work harder." And it's kind of a tough love, "Don't fool yourself" thing. And so my early management style worked for people like me, but not as well for other people. And so year by year, you know, I did grow with Microsoft. A lot of entrepreneurs, you know, don't stay as as CEO. And you have to bring in someone else. I wanted to do that. And so by bringing in some other people, I got better at that. I would say moving over to the foundation was another level of how you, you bring in, uh, different mix of talent. And so, yeah, I'm trying. I'm still trying. I, I'll be better a year from now.

Well, I was most excited that you said there's still two more books coming after this one to talk about the different areas of your life. And I, I really enjoyed this one so much. I'm so excited for people to read it, to to get to know you better, to get to know the people that have changed your life for the better and allow you to do all the incredible philanthropic work you do today. And I, I honestly am so inspired by the work you do today. And I, I really hope that I can, uh, be involved in some small way. So I thank you deeply.

Well, thank you. It's been fantastic. Means the world.

Bill, we, we end every episode with a final five. These questions have to be asked and answered in one word to one sentence maximum. So, Bill Gates, these are your final five. The first question is, what is the best advice you've ever heard or received?

Finding what you really enjoy doing, uh, and hopefully there's some job that that has that, uh, as opposed to, you know, what jobs pay well or other people push you to. If you're doing something you really enjoy, that's hard to beat.

And you found that early?

Oh, I was super lucky on on that. You know, computers were there, uh, right when I needed them.

Second question: What is the worst advice you've ever heard or received?

People will tell you not to take risks. And it's very well-intentioned, uh, but there are contexts. You know, when you're young, you know, like people say, "Okay, it must have been scary to drop out." Not really. I mean, I could have gone back. You know, there's no flesh wounds involved, uh, in in failure. You know, so failure's, you know, probably a better teacher and, and more of an okay thing. And I think this whole safety thing, physical safety, you know, emotional safety, in many cases, that we, we've gone too far.

Yeah, did, but did dropping out at that time feel like a big risk?

No, it didn't. Even the first time. I felt it was when I was hiring people who moved their family and they had kids. And I was like, "If I can't pay this guy's check, this is rude." You know, he's got a real problem. And I'm kind of implicitly promising him I've got this thing figured out. Uh, so that scared me.

Yeah, was that, there's a scene in The Social Network where you're on stage, and Mark Zuckerberg's in your, in the auditorium, and then they leave and they say, "The speaker just said the next Bill Gates could be sitting in this room." And then Mark goes, "That is Bill Gates." Is that true?

That is absolutely true. Mark and I have laughed about that a lot. That our experience at Harvard, dropping out of Harvard, you know, telling people that, "Hey, we saw something other people didn't see." Very, very similar.

Question number three: What would you say is the most important problem the smartest people on the planet should be solving right now?

There's many candidates: you know, making sure we don't use nuclear weapons, avoid bioterrorism, climate change, caring for the poorest, which we're kind of losing that. But I would say shaping AI has, for me, uh, risen to the the top of that list. I, we need to do all those. We can't just skip, you know, any of those. But this one is, is going to be a very big deal in, in the next decade.

And what would be your advice to the biggest business leaders in the world in regard to that?

Well, I don't think you can count on them. Their competitive framework is to go full speed. And so only government's in a position to say, "Wait a minute, slowed down." You know, for the good stuff, you want them to lower the price and get it done sooner. And so we can't. Although yes, they should be part of the dialogue, and they're humans and citizens too. But you can't count on them because the metric for them is to go full speed.

Question number four: What is your favorite mental health habit?

You know, it's a very big deal for me to get time reading and and thinking by myself. Whether it's on a walk or going driving. When I was CEO of Microsoft, I took two full weeks, think weeks, one every six months, where I would just go off by myself and think, "Okay, is Microsoft on track? What are the trends?" Towards the end, I'd write a memo, which actually, uh, was kind of valuable as we navigated the twists and turns, like when the internet comes along, or, you know, software is not reliable enough. You know, I need that time to think. Even though I love quick thinking, you know, being in a meeting and spotting a mistake, most of my good work comes from the kind of slow thinking where I'm off being reflective and maybe coming up with some non-obvious ideas. You know, maybe it's a little bit my, you know, being on the spectrum. I, I need that, that refreshment. You know, when I, I see my schedule with lots of social interaction for a week, then I'll try and make sure the next week has a little bit less of that. But, you know, to maintain creativity, you have to have some calmness and be not behind. If you feel like you're behind, like you turn on your email, like, "Ah, uh, oh, I'm late." You know, that, that your creativity gets squeezed out.

One, one of the first things, and does that think we need to be in nature? Are you away from everything? Is it, are you simply thinking? Are you taking books? Are you journaling? Or is it?

I'm taking books to read, but I'm also taking very long walks, um, on your own, and just thinking about things. And I love, I take a tablet of paper and write things down quite a bit. And, you know, I'm, I'm pretty religious. I'm not taking phone calls. I'm not browsing the news. You know, the news can wait. You know, I'm off by myself, 24 hours, that whole time. Uh, somebody can stick some food in, uh, but, uh, and, and, you know, that's kind of extreme. You know, there's people like Harari who meditate, kind of an unbelievable. I almost envy, uh, him. I don't think I would go that far, but we should be more in his direction than we are.

Yeah, absolutely. Uh, and what, what's the book you've gifted most? Actually, I'm intrigued because you're such a big reader. You recommend so many great books. What's the book you've gifted to people close to you the most?

There's a Stephen Pinker book called *Better Angels of Our Nature*, uh, that talks about even though in the short run, we see how tough things are, if we zoom out a little bit and say, "Okay, 200 years ago, to be a woman, to be gay, you know, 30% of children die, you know, lifespan, uh, is less than 50 years." You know, that's not saying there's a guarantee that those bad things we talked about won't happen. But people are a little overwrought and saying, "Okay, you know, this approach to government is failing, maybe we should try something radical like not, you know, being fully democratic." I'm like, "Whoa, whoa, wait a minute here." Yes, we need to feel bad about the, the, the things we're not doing, but we also need to have a perspective. The, the system of scientific inquiry and democracy and widening our circle of care, you know, beyond our, our family, clan, nation, as, as we discover new things and we can share more resources, that really is working. You know, it sounds, uh, naive, uh, to say that, but, you know, the books that really go through that, uh, I, I find, you know, guide how I think about the world.

Absolutely. Fifth and final question: If you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be?

Well, if you look at all these religious texts, you know, I'd say the, the thing they all eventually come back to is is the Golden Rule, which is to treat people how you would like to be treated. You know, I mean, say that you're about to be born and you don't know if you're going to be born a woman or an African. This is a, a thing that Warren Buffett taught me. You know, what you get to construct the world and how fair it is, and then you will randomly pick, and you will be born in some place, in some way. And, you know, I think the construct that would guide the world, you'd want for that, is is very much going back to that Golden Rule. Not, "Okay, let's win wars," you know, "Let's outcompete," or, you know, "Have have more money or resources than than other people." And so it's kind of a, it's one of the few universal truths that, um, we, we should have that guide our behavior.

I love that, Bill. Thank you so much for your time on on Purpose today. And genuinely so grateful for your time and energy. It was thrilling to talk to you. And I love getting an early copy of the book and being ahead of the world on it. So thank you so much.

Well, you know, I've loved our conversation. So look forward to more. Thank you.

If you enjoyed this podcast, you're going to love my conversation with Michelle Obama, where she opens up on how to stay with your partner when they're changing and the four check-ins you should be doing in your relationship. We'll also talk about how to deal with relationships when they're under stress. If you're going through something right now with your partner or someone you're seeing, this is the episode for you. No wonder our kids are struggling. We have a new technology, and we've just taken it in hook, line, and sinker. And we have to be mindful for our kids. They'll just be thumbing through this stuff, you know, their their minds never sleeping.