Transcription
These movies are really personal to me, right? Like Zack Snyder's Justice. Like I put my name on that movie, right? Like I literally put my name above the title. It's insanity, right? Like you want to like punch me in the face like I deserve it for that, you know? But my because my point is is that like I wanted people to understand that this to me was like, yeah, it's in my DNA. It's it's it's it's elemental to the way I think.
"Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, Sad, Confused begins now."
Hey guys, it's Josh. Welcome to another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. We are taking a big old look back. 10 years later, director Zack Snyder and I are going to reminisce about Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice. Strap in. Here we go.
Uh, thanks guys as always for checking out the podcast and joining us on Spotify or YouTube, however you're doing it. If you're new to the podcast, where have you been? Check us out. Go back into the archives. 700 episodes are waiting for you. And remember to hit that subscribe button to enjoy all we do over here.
We've done a bunch of these kind of reunion anniversary episodes. Did one for Galaxy Quest with Sam Rockwell and Justin Long. Uh, one with Francis Lawrence and Keanu Reeves for Constantine. I love doing these things. and I hit up Zack, Mr. Snyder, uh, to talk about this one and he was game and we had a great chat. This is a really for comic book heads, for Zack Snyder heads, this is going to be a big old treat for you.
Before we get to that, quick reminder as always, uh, if you want more of what I do, bonus materials, early access, all that kind of fun stuff. patreon.com/happysadconfused. We do a lot of live events here in New York and sometimes elsewhere. Discount codes to that, early access to that. All our podcast episodes go up early over there. Announcements of guests go up there first. Lots of cool stuff. So, if you like what I do, this helps us make more of what we do. patreon.com/happysadconfused.
Um, okay. So, this is a real treat. Zack Snyder's not on the publicity trail. This is a one-off. This is something he did because he wanted to talk with me about this. And um, yeah. Can you believe it? It's been 10 years almost to the day as of like I think about a week or so, week or two from now would be the 10th anniversary exactly of Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice. You have to say the whole title.
Um and it's, you know, it's like all of Zack's work works. Um a controversial title in some ways, a film that has lovers and haters. Um it's a big swing. It came off of Man of Steel, which was pretty hugely celebrated, but even that one had, you know, the end controversy about um Superman killing Zod, all the death and destruction at the end of that film. And this one, he kind of doubled down and went really, really dark, really serious, casting Ben Affleck as Batman, casting Jesse Eisenberg as his Lex Luthor, catching flack for the Martha of it all. And we talk about all of it in this conversation. And yes, we talk about a little bit about the Justice League and the Snyder Cut and the everpresent call for more of Zack to do stuff in the DC universe and whether that could ever even possibly happen and his answer might indeed surprise you.
So, always love chatting with Zack. It's a pleasure, a privilege that he's been on the show a bunch. And like I said, if you guys love comic book movies, Zack's movies, this is this is a real treat. So, without any further ado, please enjoy this chat. 10th anniversary time. Batman v Superman with me and Zack Snyder.
Well, it's always a pleasure to have Zack Snyder on Happy, Sad, Confused, but especially today, Zack. We are celebrating 10 years have gone by in a flash. We're looking back at Batman v Superman. Welcome back to the pod and congratulations on 10 years, man. Good to see you.
Oh, wow. I know. It's crazy, right? 10 years. How did that happen?
How did it happen? Unbelievable. But thanks for having me. This is fun.
Of course. I love this kind of thing. Um, this is also, by the way, I was noticing today I was my I got a few emails noting that I think today or this week is the 40th anniversary of The Dark Knight Returns. So, this is like it's all it's all coming together.
Oh, perfect. Yeah. No, no, it's a very Yeah, I guess right around March, which is my birthday. Um, you know, we had this tradition of uh I think it was literally got set maybe it was on was it on Dawn of the Dead? I don't remember. But for sure on 300 and we did these March releases and we were and before that wasn't a date. People would be like you can't release a movie in March. There's nothing no movies do well in March and then after 300 we were just like March is our date. Let's go.
Totally. So we I have a few movies I've released in March.
Can Before we get into this movie in particular, I mean Dark Knight Returns is obviously such an important marker for you and influences this film in a huge way. doing the math when that when that comic came out, that graphic novel came out. Um, you must have been about 20, I assume, in school. Do you remember when Frank Miller's Dark Knight Returns came out and what it did for you?
Yeah, I remember it well because um it was uh, you know, we were pretty much in the the Watchmen Dark Knight era had really like struck pop culture and I guess the comic book community, you know, more specifically of course, but um for me as uh, you know, on that sort of quest to find the thing that would spark my imagination and, you know, when you're at that age, you're just like, sort of right into college and you're just kind of looking at storytelling at if you're like a junkie for visuals like I am, you know, something so rare the air where those things combine, you know, like these striking images with um, you know, this story that is mythological and, you know, I think the funny thing about comic books is that, you know, people, you know, they talk about, you know, Greek mythology, certain mythologies, and everyone's like, "Oh, that's really cool." Like, you know, I can kind of relate to it. The thing about comic book mythology, it's so personal. You know what I mean? To someone who likes comic books that I think, you know, Dark Knight Returns for me anyway was like it felt like it was written specifically for me. And it had, you know, with mythology in general, like, you know, whatever when you're looking at ancient mythology, you really feel like you're just joining a giant river that you're flowing into yourself and you're like, sort of in, you know, you're looking around. It's a pretty wide river, but it's like you're going with the flow. It feels awesome. It's like very natural where I feel like The Dark Knight Returns is like someone wrote your myth and like specifically that that was amazing. Like, you know, you have this seminal comic book that really profoundly affects you, but with no way of expressing it. You know what I mean? There's no at that point in my life, there was no Batman fighting Superman movie that you could possibly in my wildest dreams could be a reality. Right. So, it laid dormant in my I would I had it. It was on my coffee table, on my desk, wherever I was, I had it. And so, you know, I listen, I'll be 100% honest. I I would still make The Dark Knight Returns as a film if that opportunity arose. Um, because to me it's like the yes, did I steal um or borrow or homage I guess um as much as I could within the context of the mythology that I was creating. Yes. But the thing about Dark Knight Returns is it is a closed loop of like awesomeness that owes nothing to anything except for a in a masterful deconstruction of gods that we all grew up with. And I think that that and really you see that in in BVS. BVS is for me, you know, damn damn the damn the like what the world would think. I was bound and determined to challenge my gods and find out if they were could could handle it.
So So let's contextualize a little bit about where BVS came out of. So Man of Steel comes out. It's uh it's a huge success. It's 870 million to put that in context, folks. That that's more than um I mean 873 million rather is what what BVS made, which by the way, which which is more than the most recent Batman movie. It's more than with all due respect to James Gunn's Superman. I love it, but it made more than that. Like it was a big success. It's critically a divided film. It remains that to this day, BVS, um did what when you think back to the reception, was it what you were expecting? Did it surprise you? Uh give me a sense of like where you were at.
Yeah. Not. And also like if you if you, you know, it is whatever $890 million or whatever it is unadjusted like if you do any kind of inflationary adjustment for that movie, it's like really a billion dollar movie. Yeah. Really exactly a billion dollar movie. So it is a it in in retrospect. I mean listen, this is also I think this movie also was the birth in a lot of ways for the general public. I think more of the director's cut concept for as as it as it pertains to my films and the way I make movies because no director's cut for Man of Steel just wasn't that kind of movie. It's very like we just went straight ahead. Um Watchmen of course um I think famously has two director's cuts. Um and and because, you know, a lot of what was dictating the length of those movies was IMAX. Um, because IMAX at the time, the film pallets were a certain size and if the the movie could only be I think 2 hours and 28 minutes or 2 hours and whatever whatever. Watchmen is the theatrical release pushing to the very edge of it. was that they had told me if the movie if the room was humid, the film would fall off right? Because it the moisture of the, you know, the film laying against the other piece of film, if it was moist, you know, wouldn't be as tight and so the film would fall off. So, so that's literally the length. And so I there was a lot of stuff that and I wasn't going to sacrifice my IMAX release. And so there was a lot of stuff that I that I wanted in Watchmen because I was such a fanatic um for the material. And I think and so the BVS the director's cut of of BVS I think is really the movie that I was trying to make. You know, I think if you watch that movie, um, you really I I think, you know, objectively, it's it's a it's a better movie than the movie that was theatrically released. That's my that's my feeling. I think it's gender people. By the way. And I and I and I don't I still love the theatrical release, and I don't have I'm not mad at it. I just think that the real intent that Chris Terrio and I had was is in the director's cut. You see it?
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So, can you give me a sense of the origins of of BVS? So, so you're making Man of Steel. You you, if I have my timeline correct, you famously announce BVS at that amazing Comic-Con event when you bring out Harry Lennix, and that's just about a month after Man of Steel comes out. So obviously you were thinking about what you were going to do next in production in post.
Very very Yes, we were talking about the sequel. Um, we felt we were very uh happy with um what had happened with Man of Steel as far as its success and, you know, obviously starting a franchise and, you know, how we were going to move forward and, you know, that that concept I think of uh introducing this character in this sort of new universe still, you know, with um homage and with respect to what Chris had done with his Dark Knight trilogy. Um, I think that was that was kind of our that was our way forward, you know.
Mhm. And so the the landscape was very we were very excited and and I think what happened was when we we had this sequence where Superman flies into space and hits that uh satellite and you see the Wayne Enterprises logo on it and frankly you see the Lex Corp logo on the truck, the gas truck that he kicks. So, we knew from early days that we would want to build out a universe where um all these things could exist in a in a in a complete singular mythology that could encapsulate. Green Lantern, Darkseid, the whole thing, you know, right? Wonder Woman. And so, and it was kind of like we had originally thought like how are we going to maybe at the end of this next movie we could have a scene where Batman just appears, right? Like he gets a like as a teaser he gets a um I don't know like a FedEx with a piece of kryptonite in it or something, right? Like that's the end. You know, he opens it and it's like, "John," or some glowing green inside and like, "Vom," you know, we thought that could be cool. But the problem was once you say out loud once you say out loud like maybe Batman's in the movie, right? It's a really it's a difficult thing to to put that um that toothpaste back in the in the.
Right. Let me set aside this beautiful gorgeous character. one more movie. It's too tempting.
It's it's it's literally impossible. And so, and with my extreme uh fondness for um The Dark Knight Returns, I found myself going like, look, you know, we you it's you can't we can't not do it, right? It's um and as a way to introduce or to begin the conversation that there are other heroes in the world, other extraordinary heroes. Bruce Wayne is the obvious, the world's greatest detective is the obvious hinge pin to us finding these other extraordinary characters, right?
Yeah. And traditionally in the comics, he is that he is kind of the leader of the Justice League. He brings the team together as he does in your in your film. And it it canonically it all makes sense. So So you never you you you never went down like a real serious road of like a solo Superman movie. Pretty early on when you and Chris.
We did. We did. We absolutely did. And we were, our plan was, you know, my plan was always to was to hopefully, you know, have this once we sort of established this timeline, we could branch off and and go do this Brainiac movie that would have like a Superman Brainiac like, you know, solo concept. Um, but the Justice League and in the end in my my opinion is that in the end the Justice League full Justice League saga is a Superman story regardless of how much Batman plays into it. In the end, it's a Superman film. Like in the end, after the it's when it's all said and done, Superman is the survivor. He is the savior. He without him there's nothing. You know, it is a Superman-centric universe though I would say Batman is the sacrifice that we need to make to have that world. Um, yeah, and so that was always uh that was always the way we thought about it. And so, yeah, and so, you know, to answer your question, there was this this idea that s that a Superman film couldn't exist without what we're doing or or or would exist instead of I never really thought about it in those terms. You I always thought it was like that that we we were just making like a 14-hour movie, you know.
And and you you told me before that obviously Chris brought you in, Chris Nolan brings you in initially and there is a very very brief conversation of like would it even make sense to continue with his Batman in this universe? But I guess the dealbreaker I mean like I guess if Bale had still still been the Batman at the end of Dark Knight Rises, maybe you seriously consider it. But the the other Batman, the Joseph Gordon-Levitt, is not that's not as clean a story for you.
I I believe that's 100% correct. It's that and though I love uh that concept, um Joseph I think is an amazing actor and it was it's a cool thing, but like I don't think it was for me to to to flesh that out, you know, where Yeah. I think if Bale had stayed, if it had ended with Christian Bale standing on a building overlooking Gotham, you know, like, you know, with silhouetted by the lights of Gotham, you know, then there's a that that's a serious conversation there. He's not in Italy retired drinking wine and relaxing. If he's a if he is a current crime fighter, then I think then those universes could mix could have mixed, you know.
And and maybe if Chris had really thought that that was a potential thing, he might have looked at it differently, but I don't know that. I don't we never really talked about. So once you decide, okay, it's the Batman Superman conflict at the heart and you are going to start building towards a Justice League, was it was it always intent from the beginning like Wonder Woman's going to be in there, we're going to tease Cyborg, we're going to tease Aquaman. Like cuz I guess the broader context is also Marvel meanwhile has Avengers. They're succeeding with their team movie. I don't know if there's pressure at that point to accelerate to a team movie or not. Were you feeling that or did you in retrospect are you happy with the pace you were moving at or would you have slow played it a little more?
It's a good question. I mean, my knee-jerk is that I didn't feel the pressure, but I can't 100% say that's true just because the studio was very excited about, you know, Dawn of Justice was important, you know, in the title, you know, where for me it was like I didn't really need it, but that was a negotiation that was a conversation that we had to kind of tease this Justice League idea. Um, and yeah, I think I think there might have been although I will say my thing was the trilogy, you know, or the trinity, sorry, the trilogy, the trinity like is is really iconic, you know, and I think that DC, the one thing DC has that say Marvel doesn't have or whatever any other comic book it has Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman, right?
Yeah. It's literally it has the three logos, right? Like those logos don't need names. Like you don't have to tell people who they are, you know? Like you can show those three logos and it's like McDonald's, you know, Target and freaking Coca-Cola. Like it's like literally, you know, the three these I like they're just massive IP like beyond IP, you know.
You look at if you look at that Comic-Con footage, that announcement, the crowd goes insane just based not only in the dialogue, but just those two emblems on top of each other. You don't have to say another word. It's just.
No, you don't have to say another word. Yeah. And I think that that, you know, there's and I really loved that. I I I loved the idea that um I would have a scene a shot in the film where those three characters were standing together facing off against something. Right.
Right. You know, that's why and so really the work is like what are they fighting? What could they possibly be fighting? You know.
Those three are powerful.
That's a powerful trio, right? So.
Yeah. So, how did how did that.
Equal. Was that was that pretty early on the process of you and Chris Terrio cracking that that it was that always going to be Luthor was going to be our antagonist, but Doomsday was going to be his his vessel.
His child. Yeah. His creation. Yeah. Sort of using all the stuff that we had on hand. You know, we knew that um we knew that in Kryptonian mythology there was uh Doomsday was had cracked the moon there and had kind of like he was he was around. Um, so it didn't feel like a crazy leap and he really and, you know, famously had already killed Superman in the comics. Um, and so he felt like the right guy. He he to me it was like a credible threat, you know.
Right? I feel like the problem with um Superman, he's not a problem. It's amazing. Is that you have to give him credible threats and the two credible threats are Darkseid and Doomsday. Right? Everyone else is like a problem that he has to work out. Do you believe that there's real jeopardy at the end of the day? At the end of the day, Superman will defeat Lex Luthor. There's no two ways about it. There's no, I mean, it's fine. It's cool. It creates drama, but there's no way you're going to kill Superman. That's impossible. And I was like, "No, we're going to kill Superman at the end of this movie." Like, that's how serious of a threat it is. that we also knew that because it was a birth and resurrection story. Obviously, I'm not we're not lowering him off the cross by accident. You know, this is not like a it's not like a the, you know, the Jesus metaphors are not like, oh, they really went vaguely with that. That was like really I don't know that, you know, it's a real reach, you know, to kind of say that's what's happening. I just felt like that was an important, you know, important, you know, mythological touchstone that if you were avoiding that, you were sort of avoiding the why a little bit of Superman. You were kind of like you were cowtowing to some sort of like I don't know what public pressure or like non-commercialization. I don't know what. But you're just you're you're [ __ ] now, really. Let's be honest.
Instead, you leaned in. You said, "Let's go."
But, by the way, it's the why why I thought it was cool. Like, why I thought it was interesting because like it's it's that exact iconology that makes it more than a comic book that makes it mythological. But if you if you deny the sort of origins and the and the what Superman is and what he represents to culture, then you know, you're just it's just might as well be a popcorn bubblegum [ __ ] thing. You know, you really have to it it to me it's like got real teeth and that's what I was always after, you know, and I think that was the whole deconstruction problem. You know, I think in retrospect I think people they don't like their heroes deconstructed necessarily. You know, they go to the movies to have their heroes.
Right? They want reassurance. They want something that they're there. Now, now I would say that in the end I am a hero's friend, but that doesn't mean that I don't want to I want to make sure that your devotion to those heroes has a bedrock of of testing, right? That allows you to trust them in the end and that they are not manufactured by a focus group or some fake [ __ ] or like the toy makers or, you know, a lot of whatever, you know, all the things like it's literally a focus group, whatever it is, you know, like I I personally think that these movies are really personal to me, right? Like Zack Zack Snyder's Justice. Like, I put my [ __ ] name on that movie, right? Like, I literally put my name above the title. It's insanity, right? Like, you want to like punch me in the face? Like, I deserve it for that, you know? But my because my point is is that like I wanted people to understand that this [ __ ] to me was like, yeah, it's in my DNA. It's it's it's it's elemental to the way I think. And um and so so Batman versus Superman. I think to go back to this sort of deconstruction concept, you know, I've talked about it before, but like I just feel like the thing that Miller does so well in Dark Knight Returns is he literally does that. It's that he literally is challenging the notion of Batman from the beginning. Like what what is his deal? Like why is he in the same way that Watchmen does, but like, you know, like it to me like the one of the great bits in Watchmen is when when Dan can't get it up and he needs to like go do some some superhero, they need to get in their fetishized costumes and go save some people so they can [ __ ] like that's like legitimately like that's that's in the movie. That is what happens. They they need to get aroused by their fetish and and I think that Frank of course was aware of that aspect of, you know, the superhero genre, but instead of that, like he took it like one step further, like one step deeper psychologically to really question instead of and it happens in Watchmen, but really the why of Bruce Wayne's existence. Like like his life is not worth living, you know, unless he's unless he's Batman in the end, you know, like the reins of baptism. You know, I'm born again. Like he's not he's not um, you know, he's not uh complete unless he's like he thinks he's over it. Like I don't need the suit, you know, I don't need that life, but like I'd rather be dead, really, in the end, is what his what his reality is. But anyway, so that really informed for me like this this this Bruce Wayne, this this Batman and this Superman, you know, because like I always obviously even just what what I was saying about how I view Superman, his death and resurrection is a pretty high bar as far as the other death and resurrections that I'm referencing. And so, you know, Batman's always going to be supporting to that. You know what I mean? Like, it's it's it's that, you know, it's if you're like, if you can fly, if you can like transcend death, you are a, you know, a mortal guy like Bruce Wayne who like drinks too much and might be a sex addict. That guy's always gonna be a little bit behind. You know what I'm saying? Like it's.
Yeah. His therapy sessions. I can't compete with this guy. This guy's fine. He's.
Can't compete with him at all. And by the way, I shouldn't I I got to stop trying.
Exactly. Exactly. Sorry about the rant. That was quite a rant there.
No, it was great. It was great.
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So we we've talked about the casting. I know Ben, correct me if I'm wrong, Affleck comes up pretty early on in your in your mind. It's like a it's like a little convincing uh of Ben. He wanted to kind of like know what he was doing and how this Batman was going to be different. You've told me that.
Matias Schoenaerts was was kind of your your backup in a way like if if Ben didn't happen. Is that true?
Um, did you So what what was the final how did you get Ben on board in the end? What what did you say to him that got him to say yes?
You know, I think it had a lot to do with my I did a drawing uh where I took um Ben's face and I put the cowl on it. You know, whatever. It's I know it sounds dumb, but literally took a Sharpie and just like drew the cowl on top of some photocopy of Ben's face. And I guess I convinced myself in that moment that was the way because obviously he's Bruce Wayne, right? Right. He's the most obvious Bruce Wayne I think of all the Batmans anybody who's played Batman. Ben is the best Bruce Wayne. I mean I of course I'm going to say that but I'm always going to say that. But like he's also all the things I like in a Batman which are he's legitimately a big dude, right? He's whatever 6'5 with his boots on. I don't even know what he is. Um, and so he's got that physicality, you know, that I've always longed for in my cinematic Batman. You know, I've always wanted him to be a brawler and I just I really I just I needed that. Like even what I did with the body and with the suit and everything just I wanted him thick and like, you know, I just I just wanted him to be able to really hurt you. Um, and I think that that when I saw but I drawn that on the cowl the cowl on him, I was like, yeah, that's kind of Batman like I guess I'm kind of stuck now. And so it did take convincing, but I think once I was locked in on it and I had those few lunches and conversations with Ben, I feel like he understood that I cared deeply about what iconographically I wanted Batman to be. And I think that just I think he saw that and was like, "All right, pocket. Let's let's do it." Like it's.
I know it's like gonna be haunting me for the rest of my life, but let's do it.
I mean, he's never looked cooler or more badass. I mean, it's it's iconic. Um, I mean, I'm fascinated by by the Luthor cast. You obviously end up with with the great Jesse Eisenberg, but like you kind of ran the gamut, it sounds like. I mean, you've told me you talked to Adam Driver, you talked to Leonardo DiCaprio, like these are they're not necessarily like people you would put on the same page. So, were you like Luthor can go a lot of different ways, I guess. Like were you kind of was it a I don't know was it a long list of people that you were looking at for Luthor? Was it tough to ride long?
I mean, I think at Driver, I think DiCaprio, I think those guys were probably, you know, those conversations were I could see them forming it. But I think, you know, Jesse was like to me he was the most modern. He was the most um I just believed in his his his his smarts, you know, and it wasn't just like normal smarts. It was like another kind of intelligence that it would take. Just being a smart guy is not going to get you're not going to beat Superman who was just like, "Oh, I outthought him. You know, I did this thing." His kind of smarts felt like he could render a diabolical smarts that there wasn't he would be willing to sacrifice quite a bit to win. You know what I mean? Like I and I felt like, you know, just in my conversations with him, I always felt like, okay, I buy it. I buy his I buy his um abilities, you know, and I think that it's he's not just saying these words like I I feel him inventing these ideas as he speaks them. And that to me was really the selling point for for me on Jesse. I just felt like he he was transcended. And then like, you know, of course we don't get to see him in his full shaved head look, you know, until the last moment. Um, and that's and that, you know, if he had come out of the gate like that, it might have been a different take. You know, people might had a different take. They they kind of didn't want maybe a uh Lex Luthor origin story, but I felt like we needed to know. You couldn't just plunk a bald genius down in the middle of the world and be like, "Oh, of course he's a supervillain." Like, you know what I he needed a personal.
It needed a personal touch. You know.
And arguably, as you know, that's probably one of the two areas that that got a little flak at the time. Jesse's like performance is it's a big performance. Like it's and in contrast to the rest of the film, and it's obviously purposeful in that way. And then, you know, we.
I don't know if you test screened the film at all, but like I'm curious like we've talked about and you're probably sick of even hearing the the word Martha, but like to have that appropriated. What is such a a key plot plot point and you're building to that and then to have it be become memeified and kind of made fun of must really stick in your craw a little bit because you know from your perspective it's it's a meaningful.
I mean, 100% my 100% honest reaction to BVS and how it's received in the world is that, you know, it's really the question about like and I've said this quite a bit, like, do you really want a movie that's been had all the edges shaved off it by the focus groups? Do you really want a movie that has been like decisions have been made in the boardroom or tested ideas are being rendered for your enjoyment? Like, do you really want the Kmart version of your story? Is that what you really want? Because like I would argue that like that's fine and and it's fine to like make fun of uh Martha. It is true in canon in it is true in canon that Batman and Superman's mother are both named Martha. That is a fact of the comic book world.
Yes. Whether or not that is a thing that you feel like Batman with the hovering the spear of destiny over Superman's heart. Those words seeing this what he believes a creature that that this thing that he's demonized in his mind.
Yeah. Is got a mother named Martha, if that if there was another thing that could touch him um, you know, that could that could have been cool. We just felt like this was an obvious way in.
And um, yeah, so again, it just goes it just goes I think and I think BVS really landed at this time when, you know, this genre like superheroes and I think I I cut my teeth on Watchmen, you know, and so Watchmen was never a um meant as a glorification of the genre. You know what I mean? It was never meant like there's no Watchmen 2, though it's been suggested. You know, I I I guess my point is that like this is a this is like a novel, you know, like Watchmen is a work of literature. It's not meant to be like franchised and turned into something else. And so like that's where I was sort of coming from with this sort of giant story that we were telling with Superman, BVS, Justice League, and beyond. This was a universe that we a mythological universe that we saw had an ending, you know, and it was like it was only going to, you know, it was like a flower. It was going to bloom and be glorious and then die and and then we would have been done with it, you know. I I look I love the sort of mythological journey that we went on anyway with these these three movies. Like I mean the like intensity of where we ended up with Justice League and how it evolved and where it came from and where like it that whole insanity, which is another we could we'll talk about that on the on the on the 10-year anniversary of Justice League.
Um, because that is a that might be a two-parter um still.
But, you know, I just think that, you know, things like Martha or um, you know, whether or not um Batman should fight. So, we're like the the thing that was funny was like when we were trying for the R rating or the PG-R rating, we were trying for the PG-13 for the movie, the MPAA kept kicking the movie back to us saying like, "It's still an R. It's still an R." I'm like, "What are you talking about? Like, we're taking everything out." And I I remember someone saying, we got a report from the MPA saying like, "We just don't like the idea of Batman fighting Superman." Okay. So, it's kind of a.
That's going to be a hard one to go back into the edit room.
I was like, "I don't know what you guys want then." Like, you know what I mean? Like, you know, he really hits him hard with that like think that's rude. You know, like that feels like an he throws him down on those radiators. Like, that's rude. That's mean. And I'm just like, okay, well, you guys are like, can you please just Okay, let's just pretend it's not Batman versus Superman for one second. Do is that, you know, I just think that like you realized then we should realize then that we were kind of kicking the zeitgeist in the nuts a little bit. You know, that we were going to anger people because they didn't they didn't like I said, they don't want not only do they not want their heroes deconstructed, they don't want their heroes battling each other on a road to deconstructing the why of their existence. You know, that is another sacrilege. But in the end, like I say, in the end, it is a it is meant as a as a witness that confirms their worthiness, you know.
Well, if if it wasn't if you weren't pushing in the ways that you are, we wouldn't be talking with all due respect 10 years later. It would be it would be like a movie that was like liked and went came and went and has no stickiness to it. The best stuff, as you I'm sure you'll agree, is the stuff that often can divide folks and causes conversation and tests our expectations and and you're really good at that.
I'm very familiar with that concept. Well, and I 100% there is no chance that anyone would give a [ __ ] about Batman v Superman if we had done the straight down the road, you know, very commercial version, colorful, bright and shiny movie. It wouldn't be BVS. It would have been B and S.
Right. What do you say to the to the to the the die-hard Snyderverse fans that will never give up hope on seeing you return to seeing the conclusion the the stuff that you had outlined for Justice League 2 and three? If you're speaking to them directly, should they keep the hope alive? Is it worth it at this point? I mean, what what do you say?
All I'll say about that is that, you know, first of all, the fact again that we're talking about even just that is testament to and I think confirms in some way the the the validity of the mythology that we were working on. Like the the kind of the obviously those heroes touch a nerve. Obviously those heroes are meant to in the end uplift and confirm sort of the human existence or the why of, you know, this crazy ride we're all on. You know, they tend to be a metaphor, you know, like for all of us, I think. And and so, you know, not to be too self-important, but like I think that and and by the way, I'm just a.
shepherd of those characters. Obviously, they've already been taken and are going, you know, other people will take them and other people will take them after that, and that's how it should be.
>> Yeah.
>> But I would never say that there's no way. I would never because I was on the ride that created Justice League. And if if you were in my shoes, there were numerous times, dark times when I would say there is no chance that there will ever be my version of Justice League will never exist and it can't. Cost, politics, everything stood against it and yet it exists. And you know, I think the fans should never forget that they did that, you know, and they also did a lot of, you know, we raised a ton of money for suicide prevention and they really did a lot of good and I think that they catch a lot of flack for being toxic or whatever, >> but they literally saved human lives. So, you can go [ __ ] yourself if that's what you think.
>> Have Have you entertained seriously kind of turning that outline for Justice League 2 and three into into a comic or an animated feature? if if someone gave you the wherewithal to do that, is that an option in your head?
>> No, no, we've absolutely talked about it quite a bit and um sure uh yeah, I mean we live in a world where um all that's possible and whatever form it would take Broadway musical um unexpected but sure >> you know that would be amazing. uh and the lines of communication. I mean, James has been very kind. He said, "You've been very kind."
>> Look, I have no like I I I I wish them all the best. And I don't have any like it is what it is. It kind of the it's a weed, you know, the the the that three movie trilogy is a weed that just won't die, you know, and so it it it doesn't need to like it grows on its own. it has its own life and it doesn't really is not concerned I don't think um with James's Superman which is amazing and you know all the best to them and I I I can't wait to see the next movie and it's just awesome. It just really to me it's it's just not the same thing. It's just like a different thing.
Is there anything when you saw James's version that I mean only James could do in that way that you appreciated in his in his >> of course James is singular in his like in his storytelling in his ability to kind of channel like u sort of mythological pop culture into like what I would consider just iconic and and very particular uh point of view that's that's both poignant and funny and all the things, you know, and I think he's like he, you know, he's he's the best at it that I can think of, and I think that he's a he's a great steward of that of that world. So, you know, that's good. That's great for fans.
>> You both You both are class acts. I'll I'll leave you I'll leave you with this if you'll indulge me for a second. Just looking ahead, you've shot another film, which I'm very excited about. the last photograph which which I don't know how much you want to say right now but this has been a project that's been around for a while and is going to be a bit of a change of a pace for you. It's an indep
>> Yeah, it was absolutely a project we've always had. We've been trying to make it for years, for almost 18 years. We've always had it. Tiny movie. We were always trying to slip it between projects. Um, and I uh, you know, famously, you know, we were we were getting ready to do this UFC movie and then the UFC was negotiating its rights deal and so we were like, let's just wait until that's all squared away. And I had this weird window and I was like, "Let's just go shoot last photograph." And um sure enough, I I called, you know, Fraud Stewart and said like, "What are you guys doing? Do you want to go to like Colombia and shoot a movie?" And they were like, "Sure." I go, "You might have to carry some cases cuz it's uh it's we don't have a ton of money." And so I was the DP, the camera operator, the director.
>> Wow.
>> And uh we just Yeah. which ran all over Colombia and Iceland and we shot some here and in the Amazon and yeah, it was so fun. It was just like incredible just to be like it was just raw and just it was just real and and the guys did an amazing job. Everybody working out the movie did an amazing job. I was so I'm so proud of what those guys and what we were able to do is what you'll see soon. But yeah, it was really incredible and what an experience. And
>> can you say anything about the plan in terms of like I don't think it has officially a studio or streamer.
>> No, no one's seen the movie yet. No one's seen it. It's like literally we're just I'm just I'm here. I'm cutting it right in the other room. So it's like it's definitely a mystery project right now, but soon enough.
>> Okay. And then last thing for you just going uh forward is is Brawler still on the agenda? Are you thinking about
>> Yeah, Brawler's on the agenda. Um there's a few other things that we've been really excited about and talking about. Uh I I've kind of given them the I've kind of given them the front slot and to see if they can work it out. Um but there's a a bunch of other things that I think are really exciting um that we that we you know that we could that we could jump to and um super excited about all those all those possibilities. But this but the last photograph right now has got my full attention. So
>> fair enough. Fair enough. Well, good luck with the rest of the edit. I'm sure we'll talk about that one hopefully before too long. And um
>> Oh, yeah.
>> And no, thanks, man. You're you're always the best in in chatting about all things. And I love that you you came on to kind of help look back at this really special piece of work, which means a lot to a lot of people, should mean a lot to you. And like I said, it's a testament. We're talking 10 years later. We'll do the same for some of your other films and some anniversaries if you'll indulge me. But um absolutely, congratulations, man. I appreciate it.
>> All right. Well, thank I really appreciate you uh you know wanting to talk about it because I do love the movie and it's uh it's really fun to um to look back at it because it's really it's it's honestly stood the test of time. So
>> definitely definitely. Thanks buddy.
>> And so ends another edition of Happy Sad Confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley and I definitely wasn't pressured to do this by Josh.