Transcription
Every day we're bombarded with ideas, opinions, information, and misinformation. All of which only makes things more confusing. But amidst all the noise, there are voices worth listening to. People who have spent years, sometimes lifetimes, trying to understand the human experience. Experts who may not have all the answers, but who ask better questions than most. That's why we made this show. It's a podcast where we invite the world's leading experts to talk about matters that matter. A space for long, honest conversations about the human condition, philosophy, psychology, meaning, suffering, joy, the mind, and today, death. We discuss what happens when we die. How do we make sense of something so inevitable yet so scary?
Here's our podcast host, Mike, to take us on a beautiful journey, the journey of death. Hello and welcome to the Aperture podcast. Here at Aperture, we recently completed work on a long-form deep dive into the various ways religion has been used and abused throughout the ages to exploit the faith of followers. It got us thinking about the underlying reasons why religion has such a powerful grip on the human psyche. One of the most obvious, you might say cynical reasons is because religion helps us grapple with death. As Joseph Campbell once noted, man is the only creature that consciously knows we are going to die. And religion is one of the very few tools that can help us make sense of that and offer some sort of promise that death might not be the end.
Death is obviously a very taboo subject and not something we typically like to think about. But we decided to lean into the subject of death and we decided the best place to start was with a woman who has been helping people die for well over a decade, who has advocated for end-of-life rights in the California legislature, and who has been profiled on NPR and the Los Angeles Times amongst many other places. I am speaking of Jill Shock, a death doula. Jill, thank you for joining us.
Thanks for having me. I think most of us know what a doula is. It's somebody if you want to have, maybe they do, maybe they don't. People, women who want to have a more natural childbirth would have, maybe if you want to have birth at home, or you just want to do, you just don't want to do a classic hospital birth, would have a doula. Death doula is something we're less familiar with. What is a death doula?
I mean, I think it's a really good using, you know, the image of a birth doula is actually really good for people who haven't heard about it before because like a birth doula might carry a woman through pregnancy to term, through the birth, and then do postpartum work. I would work with people who learn that they have a terminal diagnosis, walk them through their hospice experience, their death, and then grief work afterwards.
Death is something most of us would prefer to not think about. Are we right to be afraid of death?
Not afraid. But I think there is, you know, you, me, you mentioned Joseph Campbell, and it goes kind of back further, um, than that. There's a great philosopher named Saurin Cucard, which is like one of the first people to point out that it's a part of our unique consciousness as humans, you know, to be aware of our death, and that causes both dread and awe, kind of at the same time. So this idea was picked up maybe like a hundred years later, right? By, because no one wants to talk about it, by Ernest Becker, and he writes the book, "The Denial of Death," which basically explains that we kind of have to carry this healthy fear or denial, or we would go crazy. Yes. You know, we have to create an identity, meaningful stuff, names, relationships, religions, cultures, things like that to keep us sane.
So should we be afraid of death?
Uh, no. I think death is easier than people think. I think the thing to be afraid of is suffering.
Okay. Can you describe your religious background? I think you have some religious training of a sort, and to what extent, if any, it informs your current work.
Yeah. So I, I have a master's degree from Vanderbilt Divinity School. So I spent some time, I suppose, in a seminary-like setting. Um, but my study was more about how human humans make meaning when life is interrupted by crisis, illness, or death. Um, so I was less on the biblical and preacher side of the theological education. That I was more in philosophical meaning-making and clinical experience. So I guess that might put me in a more spiritual bracket, but I am a clinical chaplain by trade.
Do you see a through line?
Um, yeah, I think so.
What, how would you describe the through line?
I mean, it's kind of depends on what part of the country you're in, right? Because we have different religious views and different cultural settings. So, I think the through line is people wanting to hold on to something that helps them make meaning, whether that's a deity, um, a church, you know, um, or if it's just the cosmos, or, you know, something simple like being in the ocean or something like that. So, however you connect to something that seems higher than yourself would be a through line.
How does one get into this line of work?
I think you have to experience death.
So then you would describe it as a calling?
Yeah, I would. And I would say that most people who are in this work would also describe it that way.
So most people at least currently do not use death doulas for themselves or within their families. What is it about the traditional, let's say Western or American practice of dying and facing death that you find lacking?
Well, there's two sides to death and dying, right? There's the clinical side, so what you experience on the healthcare end, and then there's the funeral care side. And you kind of get wedged between these two systems, and a lot of people really get swept down the river. I think there's a lot of difficulty now, especially with cancer and the evolving technology of cancer, of where do you draw the line with your quality of life? That's been a really big struggle lately. And then, you mean, being technically alive versus still being really living, capable of living with a quality of life that most of us would consider a baseline for it, sort of being worth staying alive, right?
Yeah. Does everybody need a death doula?
Um, I would say yes. I think it's a really good tool to have, especially because, you know, working between these two industries, they're kind of stuck in their own box. You really need someone who's willing to work in the gray area and help you on both ends, be a true advocate for you. So, doulas are paid directly by the client. So, I have an obligation for to you, you know, to work directly for you and make sure you get what you want. Otherwise, like I said earlier, just getting swept down that river, you know, people lose a lot of power. They lose a lot of money as well, you know.
How do you mean that?
Well, doulas, even though they're an out-of-pocket expense, they can help you save money, especially on the funeral end of things.
How so?
Well, the funeral industry is like, rot with overpricing, and it has been for a very long time. In fact, there's really only one regulation that's placed on them, and it was only placed there in 1984, which is the general pricing list. So, you have to, they have to show you their prices up front, and that can't change. Cuz before they do a switcheroo like in the end, like the thing where you go to the car dealer and you think you know the payment, and then they keep you sitting around for half the day, and by the end, it's like 30% higher, and you're like, "Yeah, I've been here. I may as well just sign the thing."
Yeah. Exactly. Or you want to, you don't want to give your loved one, you know, cheap care, but the truth is, they still make up those prices. So, if you are dealing with the decision of a $12,000 casket or getting care for Mom before she dies, doulas can say, "Why don't we, why don't we do a cremation, save you $12,000, and get Mom that care she needs before?" So, boom, there's like a flip in how you're using the money.
Yeah. Well, that's assuming you can get the Mom on board with that. Now, there's a huge generational thing here, which you, you must see. Well, that's a question. To what extent do you deal with people, clients who want you to work with them? And how many of them are people who want you to work with their parents or their elders? I would imagine generally, generationally, there's a radical difference there. I can't imagine, I can imagine having a death doula in myself. I can't imagine suggesting it to my parents.
Yeah. So I would say the front part of my career, because I started in 2009, was dealing with the Greatest Generation, right? So they were way more difficult. It was easier for me to function in the capacity of a chaplain because things were still more religious, I would say. And now that we're opening up to the Boomers, or what some might call the silver tsunami, um, I see more creativity and openness and a desire to show who they are. I mean, this is the generation of civil rights, rock and roll, you know, Summer of Love. Like they don't want to be like their parents that are super traditional. They're actually really fun. And their kids, you know, it's, it's 50/50 who kind of comes to me. But their kids are also really creative and have good relationships, most of the time, with their parents if they're calling someone like me to get involved.
Fun was not an adjective I was expecting you to use.
It can be fun.
How can it be fun?
If people get in touch with the reality of death, and this is why I call myself a death doula. I don't sugarcoat it because if you're coming to me, we're working with death, right?
Do people come to you saying, "Well, I know it's inevitable, so let's start a relationship now." Or is it more often, "I've got the diagnosis."
Um, I've got the diagnosis.
Okay. Go ahead.
Yeah. I need people to have that in order to move forward.
I see. Cuz I can't work with you for years, you know? I can only work with you in a short period of time.
Yeah. Um, so yeah, it's, um, getting back to the fun part. The fun.
Yeah. So if you have the time and the awareness, you can actually design something that's really unique to you. Like having a party before you die. Those change the whole game because psychologically, both a dying person and the people that they love get to say goodbye, right? Which is, I was always raised to believe there were, I went to, I was raised in a very traditional Irish Catholic family, and there were wakes, and when you're a kid, I don't want to go near the coffin. It looks weird. And the, the mantra that was always repeated is, it's not for the dead person. It's for the living to make their peace with, to see them one last time. Surely what you are suggesting, although it's, can see where it's uncomfortable of a thought at first, is better than, you know, the practices we currently have of going down to a funeral home and seeing, I mean, yes, and it depends on the funeral home, right? Because most funeral homes will encourage an upsell, embalming. Yeah. So they're trying to create something that they've dubbed the memory picture. And as soon as you give your body to a funeral home, they dictate the memory picture. So that might come with embalming, that might come with makeup, cosmeticize, you know, the natural form of the body, which some people could view as healing, some people could view as disrespectful. Sure, you could make that argument.
Um, I cannot believe I've made it this far into my own personal life without having a death truly close to me, a truly a close friend or or an immediate family member. In the most simple and direct terms, what is death like?
Um, shattering. It really, it's almost like, you know, you take off those rose-colored glasses, you know? And so I feel like you're answering from the point of view of the, which was the spirit in which I, I meant it, of to the, to the loved ones around them.
Yeah. Okay. So keep going.
Yes. And with the dying person, it never becomes real until it's real. Mhm. You know, so we as livers, you know, won't feel that feeling until it's true. I think going back to the denial of death, it protects us from that. And it's sort of like, like a woman about to give birth, or like, okay, it's go time. I think the dying person has a really similar rush of thoughts and energy.
I see. Right. They say very often with women that biology tricks them into thinking after they have the first child that it wasn't, it was bad, but it wasn't that bad, because if they truly remembered, nobody would have a second child. That that observation has been made. So it does set in. You think typically with your clients, there is a moment where it, how do they express that?
People know the truth and they express it in different ways. They might never say it out loud. They might be fully open about it with everyone they meet, making everyone uncomfortable. So it really, some of those, yeah. So it's, it depends on the person and how they want to express their coping.
Yeah. Um, what is a good death? And on the other side of the coin, what is a bad death?
It's tricky because I think there is a fantasized version of death, right? That we come across in Hollywood, or if you've never seen a death before, you don't know about the little gurgles and, you know, things that happen that are natural but potentially disturbing. So, I think a good death would be dictated by the person who's dying, whatever that looks like. And that can be really hard because it's their picture, not ours.
What do you mean by that? What would be their picture? What would be, for example?
Well, people can choose how long they go and like, you know, get treatment or, uh, take medication for comfort or not. Yeah. You know, so depending on what choices they make earlier on, it might dictate how their body goes through the death labor. And I think it's important because people will say, "Well, I wish they would have done this," or "Why won't they take the morphine?" or "Why are they taking too much?" You know, you just have to let them lead, and I think that's a good death, no matter what it looks like to us, which is a really difficult concept, too.
Did you have much experience with the actual nuts and bolts of experiencing people dying before you leapt into this line of work?
I, so I grew up in a German Apostolic Church where we always did, uh, open caskets, and we even had services for the dead in cemeteries. So I was really familiar with death and dying and, you know, praying for souls and whatnot. So I think that was a part of my education. I also got my hands on probably some books that weren't age-appropriate when I was young. Like I was reading Holocaust books and Edgar Allan Poe when I was like eight. So I had,
So you're kind of just a professional goth an inclination.
Yeah. Yeah. I had a goth phase for sure.
Gotcha. Yeah. Um, loud and clear. But yeah. Yeah. Sure. All right. Um, how do you, as much as you know, you obviously have some core memories of being open to this, in touch with this, uh, comfortable with this in a way that the average person isn't, still you have your own personal life to lead. How do you, how do you not take your work home with you at the end of the day? Or, or do you?
I don't. Um, I think after 16 years, you learn how to compartmentalize. Um, but also you value what's important, relationships, how they play out in your life, what truly brings you happiness, how you make money, where you live, um, you know, what you spend your money on. You know, it's like, you know, for me, I love food and beverage. I love vacations. I love dinner with friends. Like it's, you know, those moments I really do make them matter because I could get a diagnosis today. I could have something going on right now. And, um, you know, this is this is all we have, what's in front of us, really.
Some people will tell you that when it comes to death, it is harder typically for the family than it is for the individual. You're nodding your head. You find that to be true. To what extent is that true and how?
I think it's harder, the hardest thing for the dying person because I really do think slipping into death is fairly easy and comfortable. But I think it's hardest for the dying person to leave their loved ones. And you'll find that people will actually linger in their unconscious dying phase. So after they're, you know, looks like they're in a deep sleep, um, you know, they still have these strong energetic attachments to people who love them. And sometimes if someone's like at the bedside the whole time, like, okay, maybe let's take a break and see if we can give them the space to not be holding on to your energetic attachment, and that's when they go, or vice versa, you know, they wait till someone gets there, the plane lands, they rush in the room, and then they go, you know. So it really kind of depends on the dying person. But of course, it's hard to watch someone you love die. I think the concept of separation physically forever on both ends is difficult.
And I, I, I, I don't want to ask this question, but I can't help but ask this question. What happens? What change? Is there a physical change that overtakes the body sort of instantly at the moment when someone takes their last breath?
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. It's, it's, um, it's really interesting because they'll take their, so in the final moments of death, they're experiencing something called apnea. We've all heard of sleep apnea. Yes. So there's gaps between the breath. So usually if we're witnessing that, um, we'll see longer pauses. And so there's kind of this will they, won't they, and then when they don't, there's like this in-between breath of waiting, waiting, waiting, and then there's the realization, and then you can start to see the body change color almost instantly. And you can almost, sometimes they'll let out a final sigh, or sometimes they won't, but you can almost see this, like, the word I want to use is "deadening." And it's like, you know, they're dead. Like if you covered up three bodies or whatever, and like one was dead and two were alive, you could probably energetically feel which one wasn't there. And you get that sense of that person is gone.
Yeah. After someone takes their last breath, right? So the language that we still use is someone has passed away. You're saying that person is gone. We never say that person is over, right? And I came over. Yeah. Yeah. That person ended. When let's, you know, we can speculate about what happens to us after we die. That's a possibility. You were, and you are no more. What do you, what is your personal opinion in regard to the existence of a soul? And of course, how does your work inform that? Because that would be the most obvious. Uh, that would be any religious person would be screaming at their speaker or their screen right now. Well, dummy, yes, that's the soul leaving the body, and you're seeing the shell, or whatever word you want to use.
The soul and/or consciousness, you know, it kind of depends on how you categorize those things. Um, I don't know. I'm more of a William James type seeker. I don't,
Okay. Explain that.
Well, I'm constantly looking at other more things like the more what's coming, like what am I noticing? What am I observing? Um, very pragmatic. So my opinions on what happens changes a lot. But there is a common mystic type stream within my work that before people die, they do experience quite a bit, which is in line very much with near-death experiences.
Yeah. And I want to ask you about all these sorts of things. Sure. So at this moment, I'm looking at NDEs and this process that the dying go through and kind of think they're in the same category. I still don't know what happens to people after. You don't even have a, if you don't have a firm conviction, how are any of the rest of us supposed to?
That's a part of the work. So, I mean, you've already answered my question, but I'm going to ask it anyway. Do you feel like you can see, is there any part of you that feels like you can see a soul leaving the body?
Yeah, I think that process, and how would you describe that?
Yeah, just that physicality of, and it's also a feeling like you can feel it. Like I've had, I've had clients, I had a client and their spouse in the room, and when they took their final breath, their wife also passed out. That's kind of how tangible the feeling is of that consciousness or breath or soul, whatever you want to call it, is leaving the body. So you can feel it. Something is happening. But what it is, I think that's up to interpretation.
Have you been present for someone who experienced or claimed to experience a near-death experience?
Yes.
Okay. So, can you talk about that?
Yeah. More than I used to work in a, um, cardiac ICU and on a stroke ward. So in those two settings, you do have people who experience, you know, death for a few moments or a few minutes. And I've had people say that they saw, you know, the light and their ancestors. And, you know, that typical story, like, "Oh, this is easy. This feels good." But then something pulls them back. You know, whatever it is, it's a purpose, like medicine, whatever. It's not your time yet, right?
It's not. Yeah. And that's really magical. And I, I love those stories. And I've also had people be like, "It was black. It was nothing." So, okay. All right. Well, so there's people saying, "It's good. It's easier. There's nothing to fear. Death is not the end." And then there's people saying, "I saw nothing." Nobody's at least saying really bad stuff.
Um, yeah. I mean, that's true. I, I had one gentleman that he, people often enter like hallucinations or, you know, seeing beyond the veil, if you will. And this one guy, he kept having these visions of like animals like having a parade for him and like leaving. So that's really pleasant. Um, but there was one night where the animals seemed like a little scarier, you know? So I don't know. It, I don't know. Just like we have dreams, we have nightmares. Yes. I'm sure that's all folded in somehow, but maybe we don't hear about the dark side of it.
Right. Right. The, that's the most rational explanation is you're entering a sort of dream state and you're in a dream reality. I've heard anecdotally people say that people who've had, um, parents that, you know, approach death in, in the house or whatever, saying the daytimes are okay. It's the nights that are, which on a sort of primal level tracks. Yeah. You know, the thing, the even as a child, or sometimes, let's face it, as an adult, the, the bump, the thing that goes bump in the night doesn't bother you during the day. It bothers you at night.
Do you think the, to what extent would you guess the attitude that people have when they're having, when the line between reality and fantasy or, or the approaching afterlife is, is sort of blurring, is just informed by their mental state of mind? Either the kind of person they've been, an anxious person, an optimistic person, or just where that they have been in. For example, if you knew that you were sick for five years and you've had a lot of time to prepare for it, and you've done the work versus, I was just in a car accident. I was not expecting this to be dying to be my afternoon. It would seem like that's a pretty easy way of explaining why some people have one experience and some have another. It's just how much anx, why we have bad dreams when we're taking anxiety from our day into our sleep.
Yeah. Is that track?
Yeah. And I mean, we'll never really get the stories of people who die instantly and what, I can't imagine what their thought process is. It's probably like, no, you know, what the [ __ ] I don't want to die now. Um, you know, whereas people have time to be prepared have an easier process. So, you know, what are the stories that are coming back to the living?
Yeah. Yeah. Um, this is just salacious stuff, but we're not naming names here. Have you heard any good deathbed confessions?
No, but I do have a, um, I do have a really great, I like to collect, uh, last words. And yeah, the, um, best one, really cool, very cool guy. He was, um, like a car guy, like my dad. And, um, he had a planned death, which is legal in California, and he took the medication, and he was just leaning into it, and he kind of went unconscious for a minute, and then he came out of his, his little dream spell, and he was like, "Pastrami sandwich." And then he went back, and then he died. And I, and his daughters just thought that was great, and they wrote me a card later and and kind of wrote about that, and I just, that was a really good one.
Yeah. That's exactly, I love a good pastrami sandwich. That's exactly how I want to go.
Well, that's your book, huh? Famous last, or just the last words.
Yeah, I take a lot of quotes directly from my clients when I'm working with them. I take handwritten notes, handwritten notes, and I write down things that they say.
Yeah. Yeah. Uh, beyond just the last words, are there particular, and again, you don't want to betray anybody's privacy or confidence, but clients who stay with you in a particular way and who, and why?
Uh, I mean, I try not to connect as much as I might have when I was younger, um, just for self-preservation. But in particular, I'm more curious about narratives around how people make sense of why this is happening to them, you know, like, "I did everything right," or the "Why me?" kind of aspect. And it's hard to have those conversations of, and some clients are open to this, and some clients will be appalled, but, "Why not you?" as well. You know, it, it could be me, it could be you, it could be anybody. One day it will be someone you know, me. Yeah. So there's no difference from one human to another. It's just a matter of when.
We all stubbornly cling to the notion, even though we know it's not true, that life is quote unquote fair. And it, it feels like this, if this doesn't feel like my time, and for most people, we're probably never going to say, "Wow, this is a perfect, this would be a great time for me to die." You know, I was professionally acquainted with Larry King. You remember Larry King? I was 110 years old and still hosting three TV shows, terrified every time, every night when he went to bed because he, he, it was never going to be his time. He wanted to be wearing suspenders and asking people softball interview questions for a thousand years.
Yeah. Yeah. That thing that you're saying about being afraid every night is very common with people who are dying. They will avoid sleep. Yes. Um, because they are, I've heard of people avoiding their bed. Yeah. Their bed, sleep. Um, you know, yeah, they'll sit up on the couch or in their La-Z-Boy, but they will avoid sleep because they know that in those, it's like a liminal state that you enter when you're in REM, and you could easily cross over. And they've probably felt that and maybe even toyed with it a little previously. Yeah. And so, like I said, people know the truth. That's why they avoid sleep because they know it can happen then.
Um, what do you think about euthanasia? You know, it's been in the headlines, the quote-unquote suicide pod or or death pod in one of the Scandinavian countries. There's some awful controversy. And I don't know if, how familiar you are with this.
I'm very familiar with. Putting the specifics of that aside, that ought to have no for a rational person, ought to have no bearing on what you think in general of, should there be, I don't know if humane doesn't seem like a word that typically applies to humans, but you know, a civilized way that we can all sort of, um, as society agree this person is making a rational, informed decision. They're not just feeling a little bummed out. It is their time, and we respect their their right to choose the the time and place and manner of their demise.
Yeah. So different countries, different social attitudes, of course, right? Canada, in Switzerland, and the United States have very differing versions of this because you can have terminal depression or Alzheimer's, dementia, or, you know, MS, and go to a country like, you know, um, Switzerland, and be able to take part in medical aid in dying, where in the United States, you need to have an active terminal illness and you can't be compromised in your mind. Um, at all. So even if you have a history of depression or something like that, you might not qualify. Or Parkinson's, you're off the list. Or you also have to be physically able to take the medication. So an illness like ALS, which should have direct access to this type of exit, um, would be forced not to have access to it. So different countries, different laws, and I think those are really dictated around like the social environment that creates those laws.
I'm gathering your personal opinion as you would wish that as a society we could get to a place where we're more like countries.
Yeah. I helped get the law passed in Southern California for, you know, medical aid in dying.
Tell me about that.
Uh, I mean, the bill was on, when with Governor Brown in, in 2015, and I can't remember which state, but we were, I believe one of the first five, you know, it was like Oregon like in the '90s, and then Washington in like 2008, and then like Colorado and Vermont, and then California or something. So, you know, right now we still have this, people still have a right to die if they have a qualifying terminal illness, and they can just take a drink, um, and go at their own, you know, will, which prevents a lot of suffering. You know, I often, it can be that window between unconscious dying and, and death. Sometimes there's a lot of suffering that takes place, and some people just want to skip that, almost like a woman having an epidural, you know, or twilight birthing from back in the day, right?
You, I would guess, would sometimes be in a challenging position where you have been down this road enough times, you know that somebody is on their way. They're not going to come back, and now we're just prolonging the inevitable. And I, I've heard again anecdotally people have these, you know, uh, advanced directives of just don't keep me alive with machines, I don't want. But then when it comes down.
Yeah. Yeah. So I definitely am a, I'm a strict follower of advanced directives. Those are legal documents. Yes. And, you know, someone can be prosecuted in court by not following those. But many people don't follow up and do that. So people don't understand the conse, the weight of con, potential consequences. And yeah, you have to be really careful who you choose as your agent, um, or power of attorney, because they can choose, once you lose capacity, whatever they want.
So it sounds like you've got some sort of horror stories that that.
Oh yeah. I mean, it happens all the time. Happens all the time. For like, what would be, for example? Um, you know, someone coding, and their husband, you know, in an ICU, someone, so coding is like when the heart stops, go code blue, um, and so the whole like resuscitation team comes in and starts chest compressions. And if the family members say like, "Yes, go intubate, do everything possible," because they're in the moment, and that's not, they're a DNR on paper, you know, but the family in that moment can override it. And that's really sad because CPR is, um, very physical. It can be very brutal, and it doesn't bring everybody back, you know, that's for sure. So, yeah, I've seen it too many times. I've seen people take over care, lock other people out, um, you know, directly go against the wishes of someone who's, you know, impaired. So, yeah, people, it's, this is also a part of death and dying that people's worst coping mechanisms will come up, and that's what they'll drive with. Yes. So you have to be really aware.
Yes. It's a critical time. I mean, to what is your role after the person has died, assuming you've had some pre-existing relationship with the family, because that's a, that's a danger zone. Yeah. You know, families get torn apart, and I, I'm assuming you don't actually get involved with the reading of wills and all of that, but it's a time in life when people need to make some very mature decisions, and it's a time when their wounds, their emotions are as raw as they could ever possibly be. What is your role? How do you approach helping to navigate the family once the, your client has passed away?
Yeah. So, I try to set that up on the first time that I'm meeting this group or this family or the inner circle, whoever is going to be with the client, because I want to pre-educate them that they're going to be functioning in that matter. And so, just the awareness of, you know, if I'm in this headspace, what kind of decisions am I making then versus how do I feel now, and when we're having this discussion up front. And so often times you can just remind them, like, "Remember when we talked about this? Now it's happening." You know, because it does change everything. Changes after somebody dies. So, you know, but still, people still fight. Uh, again, people are going to people, you can't change who they are, but you can educate.
Sure. Okay. Well, let's talk about that. So when you take on a client, and let's say it's their idea, or their idea jointly with their partner, but now they want to bring in say, their adult children. Is everybody always happy to be there? "Hey, come on by. We're meeting with my death doula."
No, some people literally hate me. Um, which is fine. It's not about me. I don't, I'm not the harbinger, you know. I'm just a professional. But I understand. I,
You're not a harbinger, but it's not, I can put myself in their shoes and.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I get it. If, you know, if we're denying death as a coping mechanism, the person who's here to talk about death is your least favorite person. Yeah. So, some kids, yeah, I've had people scream, walk out of the room, yell at me, you know, it's, But I get it. It's a part of the process. But I think one of the hardest things is when people decide to stop treatment, and that's when people get really angry. Yeah. That they didn't try enough, and they didn't, you know, do this or do that, and it's like, you weren't going through the treatment. You don't know what it's like, and none of us know. So, you know, that's just, that's where I'm coming from. I don't get involved with family squabbles, but I do understand why people get, you know, um, angry at me.
Are you familiar with the concept of Swedish death cleaning?
Yes. Okay. Uh, I gather Amy Puller developed a TV show about it.
Oh, I don't know. I, I don't know if it's actually been made. So, it's a thing that I only heard of yesterday.
Yeah. What is Swedish death cleaning?
Uh, one of my clients would call it "d-nesting," right? And that's sort of the joke about it is, what's the difference? Because my parents are of a certain age, and there's, "Don't give me any more stuff. I've already got too much stuff. Here, take this. Here, take this." I mean, I'm hopefully, God willing, not facing death anytime soon, and I feel like I'm already decluttering. What's the difference between decluttering and Swedish death cleaning?
Well, possessions are one of the things that add to meaning-making and the denial of death. So, and we see this with hoarders, right? A lot of times hoarders are people that have experienced very complicated grief, and so they hold on to every single thing that they possibly can to make them feel safe. So, death cleaning is kind of like a version of starting to let go of these possessions over time, or all at once if you know you have a diagnosis. Um, I think the concept of minimalism is catching on now more than ever. Yeah. Um, so that's kind of nice because I've dealt with a lot of hoarders and a lot of like cluttered houses.
Yeah, I was gonna say, the Container Store still seems like they're doing pretty well. Marie Kondo's got a pretty good removal. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of people are still holding on to a lot of, Target still seems pretty busy. Yeah. And I, I do work with professional organizers and, um, professional like declutterers to help with this process after or even before.
Yeah. Um, many of us, perhaps most of us, have people in our lives, older relatives who would not be open to having death doulas when the time of their passing approaches. We obviously can't replace what you do, but what tips can we take from what you've learned and and your techniques to be sort of mini death doulas to our loved ones?
I mean, just follow the lead of the dying person, as hard as that sounds, because some people don't even want hospice care because that's the H word, and that killed their mother with morphine or whatever. People get these, you know, they weave stories together after intense experiences. So, um, you know, I, if you don't have a doula, if you can try to get in touch with a palliative care team, you know, just to talk about options and treatment at the same time, so there's an even conversation. But also, you know, so palliative care and hospice are pros at talking about this. Yeah. So typically, though, it's just such a fast-paced environment, they might not have the time or the staff to take that time with you. Yeah. Which is why there's a gap for doulas, but there's still good medical staff out there.
Do you feel like there are other cultures, obviously, in terms of, um, assisted death or or euthanasia, we've talked about other cultures that have more open-minded views about, you know, being accepting of that and embracing that. But there's this cliché that, you know, in the West we can't deal with it. And then there's this always this beautiful idea of Eastern mysticism that they're perfectly well adjusted, and everybody's, you know, um, internalized a bunch of sayings from Confucius.
Yeah. What are things that we can read or think about or do to, I mean, it's one of these things, I don't know, you use the example of a woman giving birth. There's, you go to Lamaze classes, and I'm sure it's very helpful. Nothing will prepare you. But if the alternative is blocking it out of your mind and pretending it's not going to happen to you until it's too late, what can or should we be doing while we still have the time and the faculties to make our peace with the inevitability of death?
I mean, I guess I want to bring Elizabeth Kubler-Ross in at this point, okay? Because she talks about and did, you know, pragmatic research on the dying and found these patterns of what people experience while they're going through the dying process. And typically, the last one is acceptance. But some people don't get to acceptance until they're in their unconscious dying phase. So there's really nothing you can do to like get people towards that point. They have to reach it themselves. And whether that takes place while they're still kind of earthbound or in their liminal space before they die is really more so up to them.
Does that make sense?
Sort of. But that's a person who's sort of already in the process. How should I be thinking about the fact that I am going to die someday, and that my loved ones are going to die, and we, it's a natural part of life, in the same way. We're not going to celebrate their death in the same way that we celebrate the birth of a child or something like that. But to embrace it as a natural, to make it less of a boogeyman, I guess, is what I'm saying.
Yeah. I think a lot of it is, uh, kind of ego slashing, right? Like, "Why me? Why not you?" You know, like, you absolutely could die today. Have you thought of that? You know, it's like, most people won't go there. But I think like exercising a muscle, there might be a way to exercise, like, "I'm a fragile being. Today could be the last day. Am I happy with where I'm at? How can I make the present, you know, a heaven space?" Like, the present is the good space for you.
Well, okay, maybe here's, I think my last question is just sort of a different way of asking the same question. You've seen, you've been present, really present with any number of people at the moment of their passing. Are there commonalities that you see in terms of the sorts of lives that you think people led who have good deaths versus the people who maybe have bad deaths?
Uh, well, there's two categories of dyers, I, I guess I should say, because remember, good or bad is kind of in the hands of the dyer. Um, but some people are passive, and some people cling. Some people are controlling, you know, stubborn. And some people are like, "Whoop, I'm just gonna go. I'm just gonna go with it. I'm just gonna die." And some people like really hang on for whatever reason. It's a part of their personality. It's their, that energetic flow they've had their entire life. They're not used to letting go, giving up, and, you know, just allowing that. Those are the patterns that I see is that people are kind of one way or the other, and you can kind of see what it's going to be just by learning about their personality and their history and their life.
Well, so that's sort of what I'm getting at is if we want to, to the extent that it is within our control, and very often, I'm sure it would not be, what are things we can address within ourselves in the living years so to speak to, we all want to feel a sense of peace and completion at the end of our lives. You know, we want the novel to have a decent ending. So what are the things that can make us not be the person who's holding on?
Yeah, I mean, this is, it's hard to answer, and it's also a part of my job not to give these direct answers because that's up to you, you know, like, I can't make that happen for you. I can't give you a script that's going to get you there. You have to sit and evaluate your own life and what equals happiness for you. You know, our definitions of happiness are going to be totally different. M, um, so, you know, that's why a great reason hired doula is giving people the time to talk about what matters and then spending what time they have if they haven't thought about it before.
Yeah. All right. Well, thank you for your time. Are there any, uh, books or resources you would recommend that people?
Yes. The Tibetan Book of Death and Dying is BS, right? I mean, it's some guy wrote it in the '80s or whatever. It's a good book. I, but, you know, you, you have to be more theologically inclined to read something like that because it is more of a religious, I see, text. I would say for people who want to know, um, about more about the denial of death, there's a great book by Shelton Solomon called "The Worm at the Core." It expands on Cucard's and Becker's work on the denial of death using social experiments to prove that people act differently when faced with mortality. So that's a really good one. And also, Sheldon Solomon is still a professor at Skidmore College, so he's, he's among us. You know, he's someone who can talk now about this stuff. I'm also a big fan of Elizabeth Kubler-Ross. Um, obviously, there's "On Death and Dying," but there's another great one called "Dying: The Final Stage of Growth," which is all client patient narratives and what dying is like for them. And so, if you really want to dig into the dying experience, that's a great book.
All right. Thank you. And for people who want to know more about you and your work, they can go to deathdoul, deathda.com.
That's right. Thank you so much for your time, Jill.
Thank you. We hope you enjoyed our conversation with Jill Shock. More importantly, we hope it gave you some food for thought. A couple of potential takeaways. What are the sorts of things we can do during the living years to help ensure a sense of completion and finality, and perhaps even peace, when we reach the end? Also, I will confess, I was a little disappointed. I was hoping somebody who has spent so much time physically and emotionally and spiritually present at the time of other people's passing might have a little bit more insight into the possible existence of the human soul or transcendence. Maybe the fact that she's not even sure about that stuff tells us everything we need to know. But we'd like to hear what you think. What are things we can do during our lives to help ensure a quote unquote good death? And what happens to us after we die? Leave your answers to those questions in the comments. And we'd also love to hear the sorts of guests you'd like to hear and see here in the future. Until then, I'm Mike Tully. This has been the Aperture Podcast. [Music] [Music] The world is a big and confusing place. Every day we're bombarded with ideas, opinions, information, and misinformation. All of which only