Transcription
But are you Egyptian?
I am Egyptian.
Please don't say that. Please don't.
Shalom.
Yes, that I accept because that you know there there is a difference between conceptually what it means for you as a Jew and what it means when it's coming from a Muslim. So it's completely different concept. Christian, Coptic, Jewish.
I'm Christian. Reformed Christian.
Reformed Christian. Were you born Christian or no?
Mertad.
Oh yes. Proudly. Proudly.
So what brought what took you out of Islam?
Uh okay. Between the public the public information in Islam and the actual reality they are completely two completely distinct. Like you start with um almost everything Muslims know about Islam is from the founding document is not real. The whole idea for example start with the most famous one Islam means peace. If you study history and I know you know enough about it, it's a crime scene. You know, like you know Abbas is.
Yeah.
Uh the guy eating his food over dead bodies and then he says uh you know this is the nicest meal I had in my life and then dig out the amayadin from the grave and beat them up and the corpse and then burn them. And then you can go from that to whichever one. And then the effect they did in I don't know how many civilization and languages in the region Islam destroyed including my own. You know the Coptic is gone. It's it's literical language. The Berber uh the Calaldian the Assyrian the the Phoenician. So, and I it's it's a system that's incoherent, internally incoherent, internally in contradictory. And you actually have to be extremely selective in accepting and rejecting. I haven't met a single Muslim in my life, including my family member, who can who is willing to logically accept the conclusion of Islam.
What? Because there's.
What do you believe the conclusion of Islam is?
Uh if you're going to take it the the the the precept correctly. So let's talk about the 90% uh Sunni. Uh logically you have to carry on waring against every single person until everyone is submitted to you. And logically if there is extraterrestrial life we have to fight those as well. Like because the Quran the Quran literally say I know you know Arabic fight those who are next to you of the infidels. Oh when you finish with those there is the next one. When you finish with those the next one and on and on and on it goes. It's like really.
And so.
Finally.
Sorry.
No.
Okay. Yeah. Do the finally and then I'll ask my question.
Yeah. I if it actually you know every single belief system must answer the most basic question because we're talking is how did we get here because we disagree sometime what's the problem uh how how you solve the problem how it end how it end in Islam I don't see the idea of drinking and fornicating for eternity to be actually appealing so it's like if that paradise exists I'll pass.
And so This is my my question is so I can very easily see how someone who has left Islam would arrive at the conclusions you've arrived at. But 20 years ago, 10 years ago, 5 years ago, whenever it was that you when you were deep in it, how did you relate to all the ayat and the concepts that you're describing?
So fight those that you didn't know. didn't know it because you know this is not a claim and we can go through it statistically by the way uh over 90 probably close to 97% of the Muslim globally have no clue what Islam teaches why uh until very recently every single translation of hadith and you know that is mistransation in some places uh so unless you know classic Arabic you really don't know it uh so within the Arabs we have um how many now 200 or 300 million Arabs Arabic speaking and out of those if you take say 10% illiterate so we're talking about 250 million those who know classic Arabic are even minority of that and those who spending the time to read alkari and all the rest are even minority of that so the people who actually spend the time to read all This are extreme minority. The rest of them they know it as much as European, Roman, Catholic and middle ages knew about Christianity. You know what the priest tell them. So one once I study start studying reading it for myself is like uh yeah there isn't a single thing I was told at school or we was told in general that's actually turned out to be correct. Starting from we only have one Quran that's not true you know oh the Quran is perfectly preserved from the time of Muhammad that's not true we have and and on and on and.
The initial question what was the initial doubts what were the initial doubts for you?
I don't know if you know that hadith or not when one of in Muhammad saying to one an older man Ofar.
Uh raid raid so you can uh gain the the daughter of the yellow people the blondes. So it's like uh so your your motivation is not uh go and tell these people about this wonderful religion we have. It's like go and loot them.
The women. You know that's what they did in Egypt. That's what they did in everywhere. There's no argument.
I spend about I spent about a year about a year a year and a half actually reading uh the footnotes like not not picking up a year in Tabari but reading a Tabari all 22 volumes of it.
Yeah.
You know going to read things like uh uh you know.
Do you read Arabic?
No. Yeah, if you got very weak Arabic.
Like like the ruling of how Islam treats the people and it's it's not written it's it's written by their scholars like okay uh dude uh we've been we've been played that that's that's the Islamic section.
Where should somebody who is wanting to get a balanced understanding of both what Islam teaches and how it's practiced What is a good place for people who are watching this today to to go to? Where would you advise they go? Because I can tell you what I do.
What I do.
Okay.
It's not the right thing to do.
I look in the sources. Um, so I go to the the primary sources, whether it's Tabari, whether it's Bkari, whether it's Quran, whether it's.
And I look for subjects that interest me. And so I'll find confirmation bias. And what what's going on with the Jews? What's going on with the slaves? What's going on? And you the the the problem the problem with that you have you have several kind of Islam that exist uh and completely unrelated to each other. You have the culture Islam which is the majority of people you would run into that's what they are. It's their uh culture identity and if you ask them to recite you a single surah in the Quran you know it's like I don't know what that means. Uh and if you site to them hadith from Bkar is like I don't accept that. It's like okay I was talking with someone in in real life and I'm quoting Bkhari said I don't accept that I said that makes you a cafer according to the majority rejecting Bkari according to Sunni scholars makes you mort that so you cannot say I reject Bkari and I'm a Muslim doesn't work this way but so those are one group and I would have to uh deal with deal with them as you deal with kids when someone says says I'm a nice Muslim is like okay I'll hold you to this.
Okay then you have to act nice not say it oh I like peace then you have to act accordingly.
Then uh you have the uh the the the founding document Islam is that's when you use it when you're when you argue with someone yeah because I really don't care how you feel is like oh I feel we we should be at peace with everybody sorry dude if if that's what you feel If that's what you believe, there is no place for you in in Islam because that's not the teaching. Like when you started, you you said, I said, I hate that because you know intentionally what it means in Islam is I'm not going to kill you.
Yeah.
Because Muhammad said ink don't start don't salute Jews or Christian and if you meet them in the way push them to the narrow side of the road. So he is religiously he's commanded not to tell you as a Jew salamkum.
So because it really doesn't mean peace to you at all. It means you know something else. So, but actually just for my audience because I've made many videos on salamlayum. It's one of my favorite things to do is to bring Muslims with salamlayum because it gets very varied responses.
Could you just explain that further? Could you break down what it means when a Muslim wishes a Muslim salam and then why they refuse to give salam to Alab the people of the book?
Okay. Because be because it's basically it will be considered offering you a a treaty. There is peace between us. We are not going to harm you. But when for a non-Muslim Muslim are commanded not to start you by by saying to Jews and Christians uh alaykum and if you said to themalamu alaykum they were the ones who understand Islam they saidum.
Because they don't trust you wishing them peace because Muhammad Aisha said to Muhammad oh the Jews when they come and greet you they saidum which it means nothing in Hebrew but anyway uh so for modern Muslim we said it just means high. No it doesn't. It's a religious act uh to mean your life is sacred from us and that's not offered to non-Muslim because by default your life is not sacred. There are hierarchy of life within Islam. Uh we we don't rank on the same level ontologically. So it doesn't mean what people think high. It means I'm not going to kill you.
And so then is the inverse true? Do you believe that there is an an is there an obligation to to be in a state of war with the with the with.
Absolutely the the verse I quoted to you early fight those who are next to you. Yeah. Near. And as long as there is kufar near, you fight them. That the the irony is when the the I I know you probably hear that a lot. Oh no, we only fight those who uh either prevent us from spreading Islam uh or fight us. The irony is that actually early Muslim were not allowed because Muhammad said so were not allowed to take the Quran to non-Muslim country. So you're you're spreading Islam, but you're not allowed to take the Quran. So I'm in Egypt. I don't speak Arabic. We were coped and you're coming to me to spread Islam and a a langu and and a religion that's explicitly must be performed in Arabic. He said, "Oh, but I'm not going to show it to you and you cannot study it until you become a Muslim."
Okay, what if I don't? I'm going to kill you. And even if you then do become a Muslim in the early days there was the that you became a moi which was a lower level if I understand correctly. So there was the Arab Muslims, there was a a racial hierarchy and if you were Arab you were on a higher level and then all of the.
It depends and there is there there is different Arabs and the different hierarchy with Arabs because they have a as well the descendant of Muhammad the the irony there is a very interesting book in Arabic it's called it's the the noble family in Jordan because they were getting paid uh stipens from the Ottomans. So they had to register their family lineage. So quite a lot of tribes you have guys is their lineage is they back to Hijaz.
Yeah.
That's when they came where they came and you have the family tree and everything. But hey, they've been there since the time of Canaan apparently.
Yeah. Do you do you think there's an argument that Islam has evolved? The Muslims have evolved?
So you get Islam cannot Muslims can evolve. Islam can't because two reasons. You already have the door is closed like something as as a Jew you you have in in every single legal system in philosophy, you have uh you have the the normative and the situational and then the existential. So you have you uh the the ten commandment for you are the normative.
Yeah.
And then you have the uh if then the casuistic laws explain to you what happened. Those are situation or in common law will be in Britain common law be called case laws and so uh your law by design it's always evolving because I give you the normative that's what you shall not do. don't murder then you have to go is every life taken is a murder what's the definition of murder and so on Islam closed that door because it consider any innovation to be.
And Muhammad says so it's already the innovation and reformation is considered to be in hell.
So I have we have yeah last sentence we have couple of historical couple of cases is where people try to reform Islam and they actually reform it themselves out of Islam. Ahmedi, Bahai, Drews, Quran only. And you know, Ahmedi and Bahan, Drew, Ahmedi and Bahai, they are illegal in every single Muslim country. They are illegal in every Middle Eastern country except one.
Yeah.
You know are the the second 1977 Pakistan constitution actually made Ahmedi illegal in the constitution.
And so you're not going to get any push back on that area what I would push back on certain.
I know I know because the Muslims aren't here to defend themselves so I'm going to take on the role and because I'm not Muslim I'm going to take one of the most controversial subjects and show how there's been a degree of reform. So in Sahib Bkari Abu Dah Muslim basically it's no it's called because there are there are six volume those are the more authentic for Sunni.
Yeah.
And Aisha gives her age as being six when she marries and nine when she the marriage is consummated is a very interesting word to is for relation between a 50-year-old man and a 90-year-old woman. Um, consummation. It wouldn't be called Yeah. 50. It would not be called consummating in British law today, but okay. They consummate the marriage at that age. Up until very recently, there was no question. Six and nine was the age at which the marriage took place.
Yeah. Now they're going with the Asma age of 17 and 19.
17 18 they come up with all the you start counting the ages of after she hits puberty like they've come up with entire lots of bida lots of innovation. It didn't exist before it exists now.
Yeah. There is a problem I have with that reasoning.
Yeah.
According to Sunni Bkari is the most authentic book. They said it's the the uh the the the the next book after the Quran. So in the hierarchy of authenticity, Bkari is at the top.
Yeah.
So if this guy get it wrong, anybody below him is out.
Yeah. Because you cannot go to and you cannot go to Muhammad to to go for as age when she died 100 years of age and he says the most authentic one said that but he was wrong and I'm going to the weakest one. No, you know it doesn't work this way. Secondly, let's give them Aisha.
Yeah.
It's a special case for Muhammad.
You know.
Yeah. Like marrying his his son, his daughter, his daughter, it's a special case for him. Let's let's give him that.
The problem is it's still actually in the Quran. You know, the surah 654.
Going to have to open up the Quran.
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Because you know and the Arabic you cannot say anything because that that you you know enough Arabic to know there is three different uh word for negation. L there are three different ones. L means they don't ever.
Yeah.
L it means they will not in the future. Lamb means the not yet.
Yeah. So the Arabic the perfect Arabic book says meaning they will in the future.
And so this is talking about menstruation for for those that I hadn't remembered the ay but I know the um it's talking about um.
Women.
Who haven't yet started menstruating exactly there's no such thing as a woman who hasn't started men. So not menrating yet that's not a woman that's a child. The other problem is I think I think I probably one of your friends's friends uh the apostate prophet David Wood is the one who made this point quite interestingly is it I had to look it up because I wasn't interesting in the whole subject of them at all the the the in according to Muslim linguistic sources means 15 years of age those are the ones they have for eternity.
I didn't know that. So again, that's.
You know because it's like what you're spending eternity defflowering 15 years old. I'm sorry. I'll pass.
Yeah. No. And one of the other things which is crazy when you actually look at the sid of Muhammad is that he's married to one woman for most of his life, Khadijah, who's older than him. Then she passes away and then he just goes crazy.
And.
Yeah, there is a Lebanese author uh his name is Mustafa Joha. I think they killed him. Uh he wrote a book called Islam. Uh the the crisis of mind in Islam or the crisis of nationality in Islam. And he actually took that scene after Muhammad Khadijah his his uncle Abu Talib took him to segment Freud to have a discussion about you know so according to Mustafa Ja it's postad because the 25 years or 20 years age gap that's why he had is because she violated him.
Her she violated him he was a victim or of the of of Khadijah that's Mustafa Ja.
And you know, he violated the other one I'm I'm trying to find where is that book.
But at the same time by the way many people don't realize at the same time he's marrying Aisha he's also marrying Za who's an older woman he's still younger than him but much much older than Aisha I mean teenagers older than Aisha at this point but um and this is the stat he's and there's m there's confusion amongst the Muslims as to which one did he marry the six-year-old first or did he marry.
He there there is one common phrase when you read about his wives generally speaking there is one common phrase you will find like tell you about who he's marrying she was pretty.
You know that's a very common phrase you read it about Safia you read about or you know.
So they're the two Jewish ones for for the audience was a slave.
Oh yeah. He killed Yeah.
Who he married his father and.
Yeah. And then Yeah.
No, Mariam. He didn't Mariam he didn't marry.
No. No. Not No. With Rhonda there's there's dispute as to whether he married. So he enslaved her. She was a concubine.
Yeah.
And then there's a question. Some Muslims believe she converted to Islam and he married her and others say that she remained Jewish and he didn't marry her.
You know give me give me a single subject where you one subject where you have a unanimous agreement of Muslim wife. Actually it means.
One there isn't you know.
So I have I have a challenge for you.
Say something nice about Islam.
I actually you know that's not a challenge at all I love the idea that's how even the Muslim who don't understand anything about it are so uh loyal to the system and the halfreligious one would get up at 5:'lock or 3:00 in the morning to go pray.
Yeah.
And it's something I wish Christians do. It's like, yeah, I I like that and I like the idea.
Again, it's absurd. I still like it. That's the their their starting position is we are right. Now, let's go and find out why we're right. They start from the position is Islam is right. Why? Let me go and find out. They don't get to that like as a conclusion. They don't do that. And if you give them an ample evidence like I I had a friend of mine is very committed Muslim and he said if I have um scientific, rational, logical and physical evidence to prove something in the Quran is wrong, I will still believe the Quran. So this is I guess this this I know I said I think I know I've said this is my final question nine times now but this is my final question because I think it's a good one to end on is I've been of the belief for maybe almost a decade now that the most sensible strategy any Jewish person can take when dealing with Muslims is to take the to treat them as we would have treated Christians. So if you told my ancestors 500 years ago that our closest friends in 500 years time will be the Christians, they'd look at you like you were crazy because the Christians were doing untold evil to us 500 years ago.
Absolutely.
And today they are the most benevolent, kind friends that the Jewish people have. And I I've been under the impression you could take a similar approach with Islam and I've gone even more extreme than that and saying that I think many Jews pick a fight that will never win. So I have friends who have big platforms and they use it to attack Islam.
And if you attack Islam there's two billion Muslims deep conviction. So here here's my question. So my question for you is.
My strategy has been one of trying to plant seeds of Zionism among some Muslims. Show that the state of Israel can coexist theologically with Islam. It's not something I'll ever be aware.
Yeah, I've Yeah, I've seen you doing that.
And so my my rationale there is we're not going to end Islam. Islam there's two billion people they as you described the loyalty that they have the iman that the the ummah the Muslims have loy loyal loyalty and ignorance simultaneously.
Yeah, whatever it's there incredible loyalty and and deep faith one of my favorite videos I ever made was I went around the UK streets with a picture of Haram Sharif Mas ala sakra the dome of the rock and the Alexa mosque and I'm asking Muslims, "Are you willing to die for Alaka?" They're like, "Yes." Said, "Okay, can you point to it on this picture?" Every single one pointed to the wrong building.
They're willing to die.
But yeah, the the funny thing is that actually the whole of Jerusalem has no significant role religiously in the history of Islam. It's Am Husini who made it religious thing. You know.
I I have no real strong anyway. Um, yeah my my strategy yeah, is that a sensible approach or do you think we.
Okay, there's a little there no there there are two things there's a different problem with the uh your analogy because remember the first program against Jews in Europe was in uh 1099 when the way that the crusade they programmed the Jews in Germany but before that from the 3rd century Christian theologian was absolutely anti-semitic from John Chrisam to Andrews to you know and and to to Hillary and on and on. It took the people the leoty 800 years to act on what the theology was was saying. So because people were dismissing the the accusation of DSI it was coming from John Christ in the third century and people said that's not true and the ley rejected. The problem is Islam the foundation was uh the text and the people were instrument in it but it could be actually done in a different way because uh the the level of anti-semitism in Islam today is actually important is not organic to Islam. Jews had a checkered history with Islam. There is a defense from the ruler. They've been persecuted. They've been massacred and they lived in uh relative peace. Secondass system citizen but relative peace. It was not the sustained atrocity of European uh Catholicism. It it never was that. So I probably would go with the idea that guys, you know, you're not actually acting Islam because that's was never Islam. That's European anti-semitism. We're acting like a Christian now because that level of hatred is imported again am Hassani Johan Leers uh, you know, and and all the rest because we literally when I was in in my teen uh the the book not the protocol of the elder of Zion it was the protocol of the order of Zion and the precepts of the Talmud was translated by Shia Abd Naser Naser's brother so it was from the highest level on and because if it was imported then you can actually say okay go back to genuine Islam as you like to say which didn't have that level of antise-mitism logically it didn't because for Christian first century you know uh for for us to be right for some theologian took it you must be wrong because we couldn't put the you know and especially when you start having Greek philosopher becoming Christian for Christian they thought theologically I must defeat the Jews.
Otherwise I'm wrong but when Islam came you didn't have a state you didn't have you were already persecuted minority so the the intellectual and significant enemy for Islam was Christianity.
It wasn't the Jews you know in in the cosmic thing you were an afterthought so it didn't develop Christian level of anti-semitism And so I would think not to act to treat them as Christians, but to point out to them that you are acting as Christians, which is scandalous for Muslims.
Yeah. I was going to say for a Muslim that's the worst insult you could give many of them.
Yeah.