Update On The Kosmos Ball Python Gene & What Breeders Are REALLY Saying

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Trap Talk Reptile Network. Coolest Reptile Network in the world. Episode 712. It's a Monday. It's in the afternoon if you're on the East Coast, and it's a morning if you're on the West Coast. But man, I'm your boy MJ. I'm excited. BIGGIE TOP G, freshly out of the gym.

>> What's up? [laughter]

>> What's up?

>> What's going on, man? I'm excited. I I forgot. I love 9:00 a.m. podcastes. I think we should do this more.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Feel fresh.

>> Got a big dog in the house >> covering a big topic. Okay. Um I got to say this is a special Monday nights. Monday day. Monday. I keep saying Monday night. But guys, uh, we all know that we've been talking about many projects throughout the year. It's funny how we're at towards the end of the year. Biggest talk right now when it comes to projects, Cosmos huge. I'm talking like out blows blows out any other talk we've had this year. Um, only because we have so many people vested in the project, so many people excited. I mean, what have you heard overall, Biggie? Anything wrapped around this whole cosmo topic?

>> Well, at first it was all excitement. Um, I was I I'm I'm still very excited about the project.

>> Yeah.

>> Uh, but now there's some question marks and that's what we're going to hear about today. Um, again, exciting project, but uh like other things we've covered uh this year, there's question marks. So,

>> and dude, the reason why I'm so excited about this is because you I've talked about it on this show five years ago when I first saw Cosmos. Um, and I was blown away. I was like, dude, what the heck is this? And I just I've been on I've been on pins and needles since then wondering what that project's going to do, especially here in the United States. I I remember Britney Gobble was the first person I heard that had her hands on it. Then Justin, and then it just kind of started adding up from there. But I don't see much. That's the thing. It's been a long time at this point. I'm not seeing much. Um when you see this Ralph guy post, oh my god, your jaw is dropping. It's like, holy [ __ ] It's like things are things are only elevating for that guy over there with that project here. What's going on with it? I don't know. That's why I want to bring Justin on. I don't want to, you know, for people like you and I, Emilio, that have a good idea of what's happening. Nobody's better than Justin to be on this show to break down what he thinks is happening and what's happening for him. He He's very excited to show off some of the stuff that he has, but again, I want to kind of I kind of want to answer to a lot of the questions that are out there right now.

>> Yeah, I agree. No one no one has more experience with uh more, you know, at the end of the day.

>> Yeah.

>> Shout out to Vunit family. Shout out to the Trapper. Shout out to everyone in the live chat. You guys are definitely in for a treat. Just want to remind all you guys that Trap Talk is seven days a week. Monday through Sunday. You can find a brand new episode right here on the network. All audio platforms as well. Um, Apple Podcast, Spotify, uh, Google Play, iHeart Radio. So, wherever you listen to any of these episodes, thank you so much. Really, really means a lot. And again, thank you for all the love and support. Speaking of support, if you want to support what I have going on further, then please don't hesitate by joining the Trap Talk Patreon family. You click the very first link in the description below. Sonji join the Patreon family. You connect to a Discord and you tap into an amazing Instagram group chat. Over a 100 amazing keepers in the chats and all over the world, too. So, Trappers, you guys are my heart. Vun family members, you guys are my heart. Appreciate all of them support.

Tonight's episode is brought to you by Clutch, number one ball python organization app in the game. You're coming into the ball python game. Come in correct. Come in organized. Come in cutting edge. Start off with Clutch. Okay? If you are already in the ball python game, struggling with organization like myself, then you need to get Clutch. Okay? Clutch will fix all that. Sure. We'll talk a little bit about Clutch uh today with the boys. But yeah, guys, check out Clutch. Find the link in description below. Also, follow them on Instagram to stay updated with any new Clutch updates. Okay.

Also, tonight's episode is brought to you by the Reptile Super Show. Let's go. Reptile Super Show January 10th and 11th. Big E Big E is going to be in attendance. Second January in a row. How do you feel about third? Third? My bad. No, but you're vending second time.

>> Well, I mean, yeah, but I vended with you the first time, so

>> That's true. That's true. Um, okay. Tell us how you feel about going into the Pomona Reptile Super Show. Florida to California. Man, that's that's quite the hall. But how do you feel?

>> Look, the Super Show is nobody does it like Ramy.

>> Yeah.

>> The amount of people in there, the amount of opportunities to grow um our market is, uh, you know, unparalleled. So, I gota be there and we're going to be there every January. So, yeah, very excited.

>> Yeah, it's definitely awesome, man.

Last but not least, shout out to RGI. You got ball python sheds. Turn them into the best by using RGI rare genetic inc. Go to their website, find all the links to RGI in description below. Also follow them on YouTube. Follow their uh IG page as well. A lot of exciting things happening with RGI right now. So stay tuned. And uh Biggie, you ready to get this show started? We got Justin in the background ready to get popping. So you ready or what?

>> Let's do it.

>> All right, shout out TO EVERYONE IN THE CHATS. LET'S GO. LET'S HIT THAT LIKE BUTTON. But it is time. Do what you got to do to get your mind right. Do what you got to do to stay hydrated. This is episode 712. New breed on the block. No, number one breed on the block. Jessica Belulka of Canova Reptiles coming at you guys right now. Let's go.

>> Good.

>> You ready for do more in the future? Trap Talk podcastes?

>> Yes.

>> Only only Trap Talk exclusive.

>> Exclusive only.

>> So stop calling us. [laughter] Rub the spot. Get the club to pop. When I come up with the crop, I love it. Love it or not. I'm hot from the hop to the spot. [music] Get the club to pop. When I come up with the spot, get the club. When I come up with the spot, [music] get the club. When I come up the spot, get the club. When I come up, everybody, we do it. [music] Everybody, we do it. [music] Do [music] it. Do it. [music] [music] Do it.

>> [music] [music]

>> Get the club when I come up with the spot. Get the club when I come up with the spot. [music] Get the club when I come up with the pop.

And we're live. Episode 712. Welcome back, Justin Cabelco.

>> Welcome. It's been a while.

>> Really long time.

>> I thought you were gonna pull the signature pretending like you can't hear me trick that you've done multiple times on this show.

>> I think those are real. I think those are real, >> unfortunately.

>> Hey, Justin, what a year, buddy. 2025. It's already in a wrap. How do you feel?

>> Man, what a year. It's been actually a really exciting ride and uh I'm excited. I'm so pumped for 2026 that I'm ready to be done with this.

>> Yeah.

>> Um, we talked a little bit at Tinley and you didn't have the year you thought you were going to have production-wise, correct? Did you you want to kind of talk about that a little bit real quick before we get into things?

>> Yeah. So, my 2025 started out really hot. Really hot. Like we had we had 60s something clutches in the incubator on January 1st.

>> Oh wow.

>> Already. Like you know, I count my my season a little weird. Anything that is laid after November 1 will hatch in the new year. So I count it as a clutch for next year. Like I've already had we've already hatching having clutches laid for 2026.

>> Okay.

>> But we had this such a crazy hot start and then around June it just dropped off real heavy and we just didn't get very many clutches the second half of this year. And it's been really slow as far as hatching. And for you know for ball python breeders we live by you live and die by the by the game, right? like, oh, I want I want to play those odds. I want to cut those clutches. I want to see what we got. And I've not done a lot of that recently, and it's eating me up. The good news is we're stacking it. It's happening over again. We're stacking it heavy. 2026 already. We have just just full of full of eggs in the incubator and we just can't wait to do it all over.

>> So, I'm sure someone's thinking out there like, why was that the case? Like, why why do you think it dropped the way it did and why did you not expect that to happen? and all that stuff.

>> Yeah, we we had a little bit of like temperature fluctuations in the room, you know.

>> They always say don't put all your eggs in one basket, you know, and yet we all do. We put all our eggs in one incubator, but there are several layers to that. You know, if you have your building [clears throat] on an air conditioning system, all your eggs are literally on the back of that air condition air conditioning system. And ours didn't go out. It just we did a couple weird things where it, you know, our temperatures popped up a little higher than we like. And I just think we may have cued to our some of our girls that, hey, season's over. You know, pack it in. It's summertime, you know, that sort of thing when we typically will kind of keep things neutral and let them to go whenever they want.

>> Um, so I think that's what happened. And it's funny how a a couple hours or a couple days of warm weather can change outlook of your girls, right? But

>> well, true.

>> That's okay. You know, if there's ever a year to make a few less clutches, this is not a bad one for it. I think we were about down about 30% off of and that's okay.

>> You talked about that earlier today, too. I mean, earlier this year as well, right?

>> Yeah. For me, it was uh we were going through a really big drought here in Florida, >> the worst since 2016. Also, uh I felt like in March, winter was over at one point, and then April came in really cold. So, I think that might have affected my situation a little bit. I mean, I don't know. Again, I'm just it's hypothetical, right? But, uh, yeah, I was down uh 20 to 30% as well in in that range. I was expecting a lot more.

>> Yeah.

>> Wow. Interesting. So any of those females that were kind of okay, maybe they needed a year off or whatever, um they they did they took they took the year off.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. And you know what, guys, which both you guys, you know, talk about how crucial ultrasounding is when you have a female that doesn't go that year, dude, you definitely want to know when she's building again because she could be way off her schedule. like she could I've seen with ball pythons at least a girl that laid I remember I'll never forget my very first ball python gave me my first clutch in January and then she skipped the next year and then she laid in June the next year after that and I was like whoa that's so weird um and mind you I was just pairing not really thinking of anything just pairing and that's the way it went but another reason why ultrasounding your females would give you a better idea what's happening with this female that didn't go for you the year before you guys would say right

>> yeah for sure yeah They can definitely go off season a bit. You know, if they miss a year or if they reabsorb or something changes on them, they they kind of lose their schedule a bit, you know, at least some. Um, and I'm seeing in the chat here someone's saying, you know, a lot of people had a slow year. It's really strange, but it seems like there definitely are national trends. I everybody will you know we'll find that even though like you know you're in California obviously I'm in Georgia it's really common for us to have somehow have a similar experience like somehow there's some national weather pattern or something that connects us all um

>> season to season you know when one has a hot season usually a lot of people do

>> yeah and that's crazy because you're you're talking about mostly ball python people that are experienced the same thing

>> but condro like I I produced the most condos I ever did this year so did Bill so did a couple other people. Alex Warren. So, it's so funny how that stuff works. It's It's weird.

>> They all kind of correlate somehow.

>> Yeah.

>> Um All right. Well, listen, again, going back to how crazy of a year it's been. Um I I wish we had eight hours to talk because we could recap everything, but you know, we don't. So, I I want to get down to the meat potatoes, Justin, because Cosmos has been something that I've been drooling over since I saw it five years ago. Um, and and then it was always the same pictures that I was drooing over because those were those iconic Cosmos pictures that were being put around the hobby five years ago from Ralph. And then you finally hear people working it in the in the States. And here we are 5 years later, I don't see much. I I don't know what's going on with it. And then there's rumors that, oh, Cosmos is going to have multiple things in it, I think. And so I was like, is enough. I'm gonna bring Justin on because I know Justin's had multiple clutches. I want to hear what your take's been. I want to hear everything, dude. I want to hear what you have to say about Cosmos.

>> Yeah. Well, you know, I will only be able to tell what my experience is. I'm going like total total transparency, show you guys exactly what I'm seeing um in the, you know, from from all my clutches and everything. I love the project. I'll talk about that first is that first of all, from the moment I saw them from Ralph, I was like so impressed. They're just so crazy. And for someone who loves the granite jeans like I do, you know, Hurricane's one of my favorite jeans. I love the pixel stuff obviously started that. And when I saw the Cosmos, I thought these things are just granite on another level. They look like supers straight off the bat. You know, the clown versions are crazy. And to this day, I love it. However, it's turned to be a little bit more of a complicated project than I initially thought. It seems like, and I can't give you all the answers. I've produced a bunch, but I what I can do is show you all the questions and the things I've learned along the process, and we can kind of learn together a little bit. In a way, this feels like a major throwback because we used to be before shed testing, before less modern ball python stuff. We used to agonize over projects for years trying to figure it out. You know, I was on my Patreon last night. We were I was going through some of this stuff and just showing them kind of prepping a little bit for the show

>> and and we're talking about how in the past, remember the Krypton stuff? Nobody could figure it out for the longest time. He was like, "What is going on here? Why are we getting these weird animals out of clowns?" But he can't make a clown, you know? you can't make a clown version of it and just complicated or the candino things. It's hard to figure things out sometimes um without shed testing for one or without really concrete data. Um and I think I think it's even harder now because people are trying to do combos and they're throwing these combos into what are already such gene-packed animals. So, you know, when you get the results, the results are not as clear as they maybe would have been in the past. So, this feels to me like I'm back to the old school, like just what's figure this out kind of way. Figure these genes out. And I kind of love it, honestly. It's it's I'm not too upset. I I kind of like the challenge.

>> I'm not going to lie. Like, I'm just I'm one of those people where like, okay, you know how we went from VHS to DVDs, you know? Like, I still liked my VHS's. Like I there's something about popping a VHS, rewinding it and watching certain movies on VHS like it or Good Fellows that I always want to do, but then we know like it's DVD and then now the DVD it's all in the computer. Uh, but sometimes people still have a DVD collection. I'm like I'm like that in a sense like with the how shed testing was. Shed testing was like obviously it's so important. There's no question about it. But the the excitement and the like what if, right? Like the whole like unknown of things is what makes ball pythons like what it was. Um, but then also it's like we're in 2025 now. Like it's a whole different ballgame, you know, no pun intended. Go ahead, Milo.

>> And then Justin, uh, you had said to me we were going off of what, at least 25 clutches for you, right?

>> I didn't count. 42 42 clutches.

>> 42 clutches. So guys, this is a very

>> This is a lot of animals. Okay,

>> go ahead, Justin. clutches and and were these Can you remind me how you bought into the Cosmo project because I'm sure people are like what animals did he start with and stuff. So why don't you talk about what animals started really simple I fell in love with them and um the gobbles were buying some from Ralph. I think they were the first to buy them from Ralph and I got mine from the gobbles. So I think they bought four females of which I I acquired two of them. That's how it all started essentially. Um, and so at that point only fe females were available. Options were limited. Um, let me share share my screen here and I'll show you exactly, you know, what those original animals look like and start chatting through it. See, share screen.

>> Let me pull it up. There you go.

>> There you go. Okay. So, originally I two I bought two girls. One being this amazing cosmos clown. And here's one of Ral's original pictures of it. And just phenomenal. Honestly, this is how this is the animals I fell in love with when I first saw him. Like, this is crazy. This is way crazier than any of the other Grant Clown stuff we saw.

>> This is a picture of Britney holding it when uh it came in. And then we finally got on a clutch of eggs. So, I I started with this girl. And then we got this amazing amazing amazing female. And this was a Cosmos hat clown female. again, original picture.

>> That's OG snake right there. Yeah, that's one I've never seen.

>> Yeah, looks really good. You know, just really, really happy. Really, really happy. And then, uh, we eventually got her on eggs. So, let's look just look at some of the babies that these things made and like how it split out, how it kind of, you know, where they came. The two original animals were phenomenal. Like starting with the best stock, right? You got to start with the best stock. Um, the best looking thing. So, we started out with this Cosmos clown and she gave us a clutch burst year and we bred her to an inch red shark DG head clowns. We're trying to make some clowns. They're going to be head DG, but hey, no big deal. And we initially hit on this interesting animal that came out of it which was neither enti or red stripe and it didn't look like a regular clown and it also didn't look like mom.

>> It's not a regular cone,

>> right? There's really only three codoms involved, right? Ini, red stripe, and cosmos.

>> So, when I saw this animal, I said, "What is going on?" You know, this is this is not crazy like the mom I bought. Um, at the time, nobody had mentioned the words white flame. I never heard of it before, you know? This is really early, right? This is this is 2022 when I got that close.

>> Yeah. Well, real quick, it's important you said that. There was no white flame talk back then. There was zero zero mention of a white flame. All I heard was Cosmos. So I want people to pay too.

>> Yeah. Okay. Go ahead.

>> And and not necessarily there's any any nefarious behind that. It's just maybe you know something learned later. So this is the whole clutch. We'll just go through it one by one. So that very weird looking clown that in a lot of ways looked cosmos but in a lot of ways was didn't hold a candle as a mom. Very very standard iny redst stripe clown. Very standard spot clown. [clears throat] A really nice redst stripe cosmos. I feel like this is good quality. I was really proud of this snake. Um had DG. We did get her on eggs last year. Um then we had this animal which I could not explain because it has a little bit of graniting and it's definitely not your average red stripe yet. Nothing like its sister.

>> Right.

>> Yeah.

>> And we got this girl on eggs this year and she threw nothing that looked cosmos. You told me before you told me before, Justin, that heads could throw things off though.

>> Yeah, certain head scan. Certain heads scan, but not head DG.

>> Yeah,

>> but it's this double head DG clown though,

>> right? But I mean, I'm Okay, so look, they're both double head DG clown. Whatever's in this one is in this one as far as head DG clown.

>> I agree.

>> Right. This is this is my the way my brain works. My brain works deductions, right?

>> Yeah.

>> So, they're both head DG clown. We had something making a difference between this animal who looked exactly like I thought it should and this animal who looked like less than but not a regular red stripe. Okay. Then we had another really good cosmos in the clutch. Um and this one looked exactly like it should. This became this the first male hatched in the United States. Um and became my male for all of these future clutches I'm going to show you for the most part. Um then there was a regular spot in there. So, because there was a spot there was male in there just a little bit. So, if you look at our our our odds here, we received out of seven eggs, we got one odd animal that looks sort of cosmos, but not quite right. And then two to me that looked like right on with the ought to be. That one and that one. Okay.

>> Okay.

>> Yeah, that was just first, you know, first step, you know, one one thing. The nice thing is I got that male and you know obviously I grew him as best as I could to get him to breeding and then I had this clutch next year. That's the first clutch he ever produced for me and he's remember that boy. He was gorgeous. I bred him to a chocolate DG head clown and I had this animal which you guys might remember from one of my videos. It was really phenomenal. I was really happy with this and to me I didn't know what a chocolate cosmos clown could look like but to me this was exactly what it you know I was really happy with the result. put it that way. And it was the first DG clown version of it made.

>> I don't see it, Justin.

>> Yeah.

>> You don't see You don't see anything different than

>> It's still It's still stuck on the same clutch 22186. Um

>> Oh, no. You got frozen up. Okay. No, no.

>> Let me kick it out and then just bring it right back in. So, go ahead. Oh, no. I KICKED HIM OUT. DAMN IT. [laughter] SORRY. HEY, he's gonna come right back, guys. Um, but yeah, Amelia's shoulders look great. He's swole as [ __ ] right now. [laughter]

>> Yeah, man. Um, that first clutch.

>> Suspect already. Already suspect.

>> Yeah. Yeah, man.

>> Here he comes.

>> You kicked me out completely.

>> That was Aio. That was not me. That was Aio. [laughter]

>> I don't worries.

>> Okay. He has no controls. Okay. No. Can you share that again, Justin? I'm sorry. There you go.

>> Yeah. Done. Done. Okay. So, yeah. So, this is the next phase. Essentially, we had the male up to size and it's a Cosmos doublehead DG clown, of course, and we bred it to a chocolate DG head clown and we hatched this amazing amazing snake.

>> Wow.

>> Really happy with this one. And this is only my second clutch ever of Cosmos, period. I was just so thrilled to hit this. It's a girl and we're just actually starting to breed her now.

>> Um, so you thought you thought you thought to yourself finally like this is what

>> this looked like this looked, you know, forget what happened in the past. This looked like normal normal life to me. Okay.

>> But then I started looking at the rest of the babies and we have this chocolate cosmos which I think you know maybe not the highest expression but clearly clearly clearly pretty decent.

>> A regular Cosmos. I was pretty happy with that. Another regular Cosmos. And then we got some DGs and chocolate DG. So that was this clutch to me was pretty straightforward. It looked about right. You know, we got four cosmoses out of seven eggs.

>> Okay.

>> And what what female was that that you used? That was the one you had.

>> The chocolate DG head clown. No, chocolate DG head clown.

>> The male. Who was the male? I'm sorry. Who's the male?

>> The cosmos doublehead DG clown

>> that you produced, correct?

>> Yeah.

>> Okay. Okay. All right. So, that's Okay. All right.

>> This This male I made from that original crazy clown. Cosmos girl.

>> Got it. Got it.

>> So, this is where it got a little weird for me. The very next clutch, we use the same male and we brought it to a Super Mario DG. Um, which is again, I was trying to do simple pairings. I was starting to get a little like I don't want to make this really complicated, not tell what's going on. I'm trying to keep things relatively simple.

>> And Super Mario D, gorgeous snake, really reduced pattern, really nice. Um, but it's really straightforward. It's going to throw all mar all Marios to every baby and head, you know, a head DG gene to every baby. And this first baby that came out, I was really, really happy with the Mario Cosmos head DG. Okay. And to me, looks right on. You can definitely see the Mario. You can see Cosmos is really strong in that and gorgeous. Then I got this animal, which I thought that's odd. It's a kind of a weird granite DG Mario, which DG Mario is like, you know, pretty straightforward, but it's really odd granite because my Mario um DGs typically look like this almost always. I've had a lot of these over the years. They're really reduced pattern. They're really clean. They're nice. And so I was looking like, what's that? If this is the D, if this is the Mario pet DG, then the DG version should look like this but brighter. And it looks like And I'm seeing this now. Because DG doesn't change pattern. I think we all agree on that. DG's, you know, beautiful color.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. So, I was I was a little like confused like what's going on here? And then I got another one, the standard Mario DG and then another one that's a little bit granity. But how could it be Cosmos if the original one looks like this? I'm I'm starting to lag a little bit here. You do a refresh.

>> Is Archer gaming right now? Last time that was a problem. [laughter]

>> Better not be a school tunner.

>> I'm using this as the baseline. The DG version of of Cosmos should look like this. Cosmos Mario should look like this. And it didn't.

>> So I only got one clear cosmos out of this clutch.

>> Wow. And how many babies? I'm sorry. How many How many How many babies, Justin, in this clutch

>> at this end? This clutch was seven. You know, again, nothing's impossible. We've seen odds all over the place, right? All of us. We've been doing this a long time. We're big boys. So then I did another clutch. I got a clutch from the same female over again, that original girl, you know, which is, you know, was phenomenal. And I bred it to what I again what I thought was a relatively simple um pairing I did to a clown. So it's clown to clown. This is spotnose confusion ivory. It's paradox but forget that part. You know it doesn't matter visually. Spot confusion ivory clown. So we're go yellow belly to everything and spot confusion and cosmos are the only codons that we're looking for. Right outside of that great results again. Great.

>> Screen screen is screen is stuck again on the other clutch just so you know.

>> Crap. Sorry. Okay. So yeah,

>> so

>> this is we we got a great result from a cosmos clown to spot nose confusion ivory clown. So it's you know con clown all yellow bellies. We're looking for confusion spot and cosmos right and we got great results on this one again from that original girl. Um we got that animal that animal which I loved. You know this is the spot nose gel by confusion cosmos clown.

>> Phenomenal. That's nice.

>> This one was a little odd to me. I was really impressed with it though. It got wonderful color, right?

>> Wow.

>> But then we end up and then we got a yellow belly cosmos clown. Again, looked right.

>> But then we got a couple really odd spot-nose yellow belly clowns who didn't look like

>> regular.

>> Yeah. And they didn't. And then to me around this time is when I started hearing about the white flame and I was like, "Oh, maybe my girls have white flame. That's what you know, that's what the difference." But I wasn't seeing anything in these that had white sides or anything on any of my Cosmos stuff. And we had a regular kind of kind of dark.

>> That's dark

>> yellow belly clown from the from the cosmos. Not confusion.

>> Hey me though, does that look like a regular yellow belly clown to you?

>> No.

>> It's really odd. Yeah, really odd. Again, I can't explain it. And a lot of this stuff went to the pet shop if I couldn't explain. I didn't want to sell it as it's just something, you know.

>> The pet shop that went to the pet shop

>> likely. Yeah, likely. We [snorts] sell we put all kinds of stuff to the pet shop that um we can't explain. We don't want we don't want to take good money for it if we can't guarantee [clears throat] it.

>> Um and we don't want to tell somebody it's a regular yell and give away jeans either. So, I'd rather give away jeans to a pet owner, put it that way, than give them away to someone on a on a morph market auction.

>> That's actually really honest of you. That's really That's really really stand up of you, man. It really is because people could people could know that you're sending them something that is not sure and they could just run with it and [ __ ] pull Houdinis out of their [ __ ] scrambler butt, if you know what I mean.

>> It happens. It happens.

>> Okay.

>> All right. So, then we then we finally got this girl to go. This is the Cosmos hat clown. This again, as crazy as they come, I loved the snake. It was actually sold to me as yellow belly, too. It didn't prove yellow belly, but that was no big deal. Um, I didn't need it to be yellow belly, but at this point, I was like, uh, I I'm just not seeing a clear cosmos versus not Cosmos on these babies, you know, straight across the board,

>> right?

>> So, I bred it to an Exantic DG clown plus a cool project, right? Um, and I got some [snorts] pretty good cosmoses. I got one. That one's a little less than that one. I got three in the clutch. And then I got an oddlook clown again that didn't explain, but doesn't look to me like anything that like the white flame stuff that's been shown.

>> Um, really kind of standard belly but clown.

>> How many cosmos? How many Cosmos did you get in this clutch? Um, this one was pretty good. It was three out of eight.

>> Okay.

>> I consider that good odds at this point. Um,

>> go ahead.

>> So, are we seeing potentially the inconsistencies that we we've seen in the past with other things? Um, those clowns, they don't look they don't scream anything in particular to you, right? That that's that's what you're saying. I mean, to me, those two clowns

>> I'm saying they're odd, but they're not normal, but they're not a gene I can recognize. Yeah. you can't recognize. I mean, I know I can't. We We're both on all three of us are on the same page here. That's the second or third clown I've seen

>> that you can't connect it to any existing

>> uh look

>> and it and obviously it doesn't look cosmos.

>> Correct. Correct. And if you look at these normals too, I mean they are triple heads, but just the patterning of them is a bit interesting I would say.

>> Oh yeah. Um, not enough for me to call it something else, but

>> that one defin then then we could discuss maybe a little more like conclusions about it a little bit. So, this is another really simple clutch. I was going so simple if I could. Um, yellow belly white lace. Beautiful, beautiful animal, but it's going to be since it's super lace, it's going to make lace everything. Half of them be yellow bellies. I brought it to the same Cosmos double hat, you know, animal. And I did get one great animal, the spot-nosed yellow belly lace. Um, Cosmos, sorry, cosmos yellow belly lace. Um, and end up being doublehead dig. Really nice animal. I was really happy with this animal. To me, this is Cosmos all day long. Exactly what it should look like. Next baby. Look at that. This is just lace kind of cosmos, right? I mean, it's definitely nothing like dad, you know.

>> And the next one, this is a really dark, really dark interesting animal for a lace yellow belly. Another, this should be just lace, but look at now I put cosmo, but look at this. Look at this pattern. This is something we never see in lace at all. Um,

>> but all could be is lace.

>> So, Justin, would you say that we're seeing three different interactions on every clutch?

>> Possibly. That that's that's kind of what I'm getting at in the end is that's just a that's just a few clutches of of 42 total that I' I've done. And what I've seen from it, if I would just, you know, a synopsis is I'm I bought two amazing animals are the best they could possibly be in my opinion. As good as I've seen and but my results from them have overall been are hatching around 25% of the clutch is on par with adults, which suggests that it's not just um one gene, right? It suggests it's maybe two because right two should be 25% right or one and four for both those genes to hit to make that crazy look. The challenge is is that I think that the the other gene if there is another one I'm just I'm just surmising. It's not obvious enough for me to say that animal has that other gene, this animal has this other gene. Like it's not I'm not seeing that. I'm seeing oddlooking animals here and there but inconsistent looks. Um, and uh, yeah, to me that's that's the that's the fascinating thing part. And just, you know, just to show my math a little bit, you know, this is this is I was doing the math last night on my Patreon. So, we had 42 clutches, um, 271 total eggs, and 60 animals that I was willing to, um, to label as Cosmos. Like it's clear enough to me to label it,

>> which is exactly 25% which is odd, but but I guess 271 eggs. It should the odds should kind of clear out too, which I don't know if you can share that when I'm presenting it. I don't know if you can share that page just for the visual. There you go. Yeah, I just quick did the math, but assuming I hope I didn't do it wrong right here on national television, but [laughter]

>> 271 eggs, 60 cosmos, clear cosmos, 25% chance per egg, which is

>> kind of what it should be.

>> Half of what it should be if it's one gene and one gene only. And I'm I'm not suggesting that there's going to be conspiracy or anything because I think Ralph has been pretty clear that there's at least a white flame gene, right?

>> Yeah.

>> Um in that's in some of his really nice cosmos. you know to what percent I don't know but I have not been able to identify that gene in my results.

>> Yeah. Um because I can't you know

>> what's crazy to me is I I mean this right here is supposed to be Cosmos yellow belly clown. Mojave, excuse me. Cosmos Mojave yellow belly clown.

>> You're not got to be white flame though or something else, right? It's not it's not it's not IDed as white flame and maybe this is an older pick. So maybe he just didn't know then. But

>> clearly like you're not getting any of this stuff.

>> I have not hatched I mean aside from those that one little clutch where I had a couple that confusion stuff was all very interesting but this is this is I was expecting to hatch half of my clutches to look like this these kind of animals and that's not what I found from you know after my investment is that we're not making half of our clutches look like that. Well, it's like that's why people were spending $30,000 of Cosmos is to make stuff like this. That's why they were spending so much money on it and it's not happening.

>> And then and then it's really hard to believe that a specific head influence or many can hide that type of impact. I I

>> don't not that I've ever seen.

>> I'm not believing that. I'm just not. And especially in that

>> the cat's irrelevant to this story

>> in that especially in that amount of animals. It just it just that isn't a good um response to it at all. Period.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. There's definitely something going on. Again, it doesn't really bother me per se. I think clarity is the key to any of this stuff because everybody who's buying an animal should just know what to expect if possible. again and there's no conspiracy or I don't think that I know of but if you're buying an animal um I think it's important to to realize hey this is going to be my return on investment this these are not the kind of numbers that that doesn't really matter on these are the kind of numbers where it really matters

>> trust let me ask you with your experience in the hobby especially working with like investment type projects if somebody comes in sells an investment a high investment ball python project and then a couple years few years goes by and it turns out not to be what it is and that person comes out and says, "Man, there might be something in the mix." Does that person like do they get dragged to the mud after that? Or like what what what should happen if something were to come out like, "Dude, I'm sorry. This was not just a single gene, this or something else?" Like how does this supposed to play out if it's not a single gene, you know?

>> I mean, the market determines it. The the buyers determine it. It's not something, you know, when you're an early adopter, be it technology or mutations, there's a risk involved. Um, if you if you run and grab a snake from your buddy that he swears he, you know, hatched out, he may not know at all at that point.

>> Yeah.

>> Um, so I think I think to an extent it's it's the buyer's decision how upset they want to be about it. I I'm not. I think I think to me like it was an awesome animal. I got the awesome animal I paid for. I was not upset about that. The fact that it's becoming more complicated and figuring it out to me is par for the course. However, I'm also an old hat at this and I'm not banking all my all my business on one mutation or anything like that, right? It may be harder for someone else.

>> Uh, here's a question, Justin. Um, let's say I buy a $30,000 animal from you, okay? I breed it and I'm confused. I'm not I don't know what I'm looking at. I could come to you, right? Can I come to you and be like, "Hey, what's going on?" Like, would you ever block me or not speak to me if I have questions about a $30,000 snake I bought from you? Um, I'm just wondering if that's how you would handle it.

>> I would handle it just like I handled I I pull up clutch, we'd go through it together, see if you can figure it out, you know, and and I would be learning alongside you if you had different data than me. You that's that's how I operate on this stuff because it it's too it's too critical, especially on a a client like that.

>> I don't know I don't know what better way to operate if you got no guilt on your shoulders. Like if you like if you're like, dude, I have nothing to hide, then what's the point of not talking to people? I'm just saying in general animals. Geez. Yeah. Look at Look at the animals. Yeah. They're they're crazy. And who wouldn't want to work with

>> guys that once you're not willing to address uh issues and you're you're going to continue to double down, you know, anyone out there, right? If you if you're not willing to address issues with your customers or or or the industry, that's where you start to to get into, you know, you lose your reputation. So, wherever that may be, you know,

>> I mean, historically, it's happened to a lot of people. A lot of people, you know, that's why it's also like red flag topics that we always bring up on this show, Alio, like if something doesn't add up, well, then it doesn't add up. Like that's it should add up in this hobby. The thing about pythons, it all adds up eventually. It's not it's not a a five, six year run of what's going on. No, we figure it out by then. This is why Justin has all

The numbers to show it. So, do other people. Um, but then at the end of the day, it's like Justin said, the market determines where this project would go. I mean, from what I'm hearing also, Justin, the prices of Cosmos are coming down by the week. And I'm wondering what the situation of that is all about. Are you bringing them down? Is another investor bringing them down? Is the original guy bringing them down? Like, who's who's taking the >>

I don't see prices. I I put my prices where they are on Morph Market and I'm just trying to I'm trying to be polite to um everyone in the project including my customers and the and the founder. I try to be polite to that. Um what other people are are what other people are uh are putting up there. I don't know. And what they're selling for, I don't know, you know, that's that's the frustrating thing. Um >>

What are you going to sell them for? Like what are you going to do since you are producing them and you are are you just holding back all the nice ones or >>

Yeah, in this scenario what I typically will do is I will just lay low and just let let the market do what it's going to do. If anybody you know is interested in buying one of my animals, I'll be like, "Hey, you know, if you see a better price, if you want to negotiate with me, fine. We'll talk about that. But also, I'm going to also make sure it's really clear what I've discovered as well and we're all on the same page at the time of the purchase. That's the best thing I can possibly do to it. But I don't mind holding back animals. To me, these projects, be it, you know, GHI or banana or, you know, what are the what are the Kodoms of the day that have been high >>

Cosmos now? Yeah. They >> they >> they're really high for a short period of time and then they move into a zone where more people can purchase them. And when they get down into the zone of, you know, think how long strangers stayed in like the five to $7,000 zone, when they get into that zone and everybody is satisfied that they understand it, everybody's happy with it, then I'll have all kinds of cool stuff to sell them at that point. And I'm okay with waiting to then I don't have to make, you know, these really highend sales in order to be, you know, satisfied with the project. >>

Yeah. Go ahead, Milo. >>

Here's my biggest concern, right? Um, you showed a couple banger animals. Um, Brad Boa, um, hit a banger animal with Batman. Um, I sent that animal to you to talk about it because we send each other animals. It's it's this this is what what we do. This is what we love, right? When something cool is hit, >>

You hit it or Brad Boa hits it, we all send it to each other in the chats. Uh, man, this Cosmos project has been going for a bit and I can only remember sending one animal and I sent that one to you and it was from Brad Boa. Uh, that that's alarming. >>

It is. It depends on how you look at it is if you expect it to be just straightfor 50% and you know what's going on. It's alarming in that sense because we you know expectations are important, >>

Right? Expectations are important. Once expectations have been changed, then you can interpret it differently. You can say, "Oh, you know, these are not going to be so prolifically made as your standard code on. You know, those those awesome animals are going to be rarer for longer, which could make it a a better project." >>

Yeah. >>

You know, it's more like a recessive odds at that point. >>

Yeah. >>

Um, and again, I'm not trying to speak into the future, but the the path has been set. People will feel the way they feel. They will figure out they will determine once they figure out how it's going, they're going to determine to what extent they're interested. But I see it as a as a partial positive to be honest with you. Like you said, they've been out for a while. People have been working for a while. I have had 42 clutches and I've not produced, you know, I should have had 130 Cosmos and I have 60. Right? So that tells you that tells you right there like, hey, it's kind of cool. Honestly, this is slow rolling a little bit. It's hard to make good quality animals at the at the regular numbers and and that's kind of that's kind of helpful in a way. >>

Agreeing with you fully. Um clarity is the way. >>

Yeah, >> clarity is the way because if we continue to take long to produce uh these amazing animals with zero information or clarity, guess what happens? The balloon pops and people start to forget. >>

Yep. >>

Yeah. You know, >>

That's true. Clarity is everything, you know. And again, I I don't claim to come out and say like I understand exactly what genes the interaction is and why it's why these percentages are the way they are. I don't know. But I all I can do is like go through my clutches and maybe put one on my channel where I go through a lot of the rest of the clutches, but they're basically all the same. >>

The clutches that I didn't go through are basically the same sort of situation as we showed on the few that we looked at. >>

Justin, how many Super Cosmos have you made? Like have you determined the whole super versions of them yet? Why? Why? How come zero? How come zero? >>

Because I the reason main reason I didn't go for supers was I had those two girls and in a way it felt too valuable to use them for some other project. Um >>

And then I also got nervous again when the odds weren't lining up right. I'm like will I be able to tell if I get a super? Will the odds be what I think they are? And if it was a straightforward like, hey, I always know exactly half the clutch is this and one of four will be a super and it'll be different looking. Um, enough. I got a little I got a little iffy on trying to dive in deeper on it when I'm still looking for basic clarity. >>

But that's coming up soon, I'm assuming. Like now you're gonna >>

This year this year I'm pairing for supers. Yeah. Because in my mind to like now I I've seen what I can see. This is much data as I can have. I have plenty of clutches. And so now I'm looking at it like I'm gonna take one of the really nice animals, bring it back to one of those really nice females and again simple like just straightforward cosmos to cosmos. I'm not want to complicate it and then see what pops out if it maybe helps the you know helps clarity or not. I don't know. >>

So is there a chance that those really nice animals could be supers? >>

See that's a good question. But they did not produce I showed you the clutches from them. They were less than 50%. >>

Yeah. No, I mean, the the really nice animals that we've seen out there, could they potentially be supers? >>

I don't think so because I don't think so. Simply because the ones I bought looked as good as all the ones that are out there and they weren't supers. >>

You bought something that looked just as crazy as this with the white flames on the side. You bought something this extreme? >>

Well, mine didn't have any codes in it. I you know, I showed you the animal I bought. It was It looked as [clears throat] good >>

To your to your knowledge. To your knowledge. >>

What do you mean? Because you said you bought a Cosmos with no other genes in it, but that's what you're being told. You don't know that for sure obviously, right? >>

No. Correct. >>

Yeah. I'm saying I'm saying no other codeoms in it like Mojave Yellow Belly that are no they're known Kodoms, right? I bought a Cosmos clown and a Cosmos head clown. >>

Um and to at time of purchase they were just Cosmos. >>

Well, go ahead. >>

Let me say this. He he misided yellow belly already, which is prevalent. >>

Pre-chet testing. Pre-show testing. But yes. Yeah, it's prevalent out there. But >>

that said, a gene originator that has all the experience with said gene shouldn't be misiding a Cosmos yellow belly head clown. >>

It's not ideal. >>

Yeah. >>

I not everybody has massive experience at all times. >>

I mean, you know, listen, I I have misident So, I don't want to I don't want to break anyone with cult. >>

No, no, no. This is not you know >>

you know how are we far away from a cosmos test? >>

Yeah I think so simply because we'd have to send you know Charlie or RGI >>

ideally supers unrelated supers to make a test and >>

that neither of those things exist. >>

Yeah. >>

Um have you sold a lot of Cosmo stuff out there like pets or something like that at all to people? Justin, >>

I say I sold like four or five um now total. >>

Um >>

Have they produced anything have they produced anything yet and have they talked to you about it? >>

I have spoken with I've spoken with all the people who bought them I believe now um you know shared with them what I've learned and I don't think any of them have had a clutch yet. I think I think this year will be >>

um you know one thing that can make this whole topic so touchy it's just like scrambler right? You got people who are so vested into this one project. They don't have a bunch of things going on in the pipeline like you h you do, Justin or Alio. Like they're all in on this one project. And that's dude, that's just a scary thing to do, man. In this game, you just never know. And and I'm sure you could attest to that, Justin. Like you Yeah, you should have a gene that you're passionate about working, but that should not be like your your golden ticket to the [ __ ] main stage. Like you're going to need multiple >>

You never know what the golden ticket's going to be. You need you need multiple streams. Yeah. >>

I mean, some people have the golden ticket. They don't even know they have it yet. You know what I'm saying? Like, it just you don't know. So, that's why I understand like some of these topics are like, man, people start to lose their mind because they they dump their freaking life savings into this and and it's only that one project. And God bless, but man, when [snorts] you mess with people's money, dude, it gets it gets dicey. It really does. >>

So true. Yeah. >>

And it's it's it's a big investment, so it does matter. Justin, have you in your 20 plus years ever seen anything like this? >>

I wouldn't we've seen we've seen things that took a while to figure out like I mentioned earlier, you know, like the cryptic stuff and and it wasn't really clear and people were a little weirded out for a while until they understood. >>

Okay. Um I'm trying to think of a situation where we had you know what one situation might be on Oh actually maybe the perfect situation is the blackhead with the red jean ringer gene >>

which I think do exist but it took a long time to figure out why one blackhead looks so different than another blackhead. Some had floating pattern and some had really nice black packs and like you could buy one but you couldn't produce them really consistently looks just like the dad. I think maybe that would be more analogous to the situation. >>

So, what do people do, Justin? I mean, I You're still excited about Cosmos, which I love, right? >>

For somebody out there, For somebody out there who's not so excited, maybe panicking or not too sure, what what do you want to say to them or what do you recommend? >>

Well, there's two kinds of people. There's two kinds of people. People who have invested in it and people who haven't. Yeah. Right. [laughter] Right. There's people who've invested in it. Should they be panicking? I don't think so. I think you have an amazing animal that is you're not gonna be able to make high numbers, but no one else is either. >>

It it level playing field, right? Maybe it's not what you thought, but everyone else is also in the same playing field. That's the key. Um, [clears throat] so if you invested, I wouldn't panic. I I'm not panicking. I like it. I I I think it's I'm honestly a little bit more excited about it. I was I was looking at it like, oh, I better make a bunch because everyone else in the mother's going to make them, too. And that's just not happened. That's kind of cool, you know, >>

right? >>

And there's people who haven't invested yet. There's no reason they should panic about something they haven't even invested in, you [laughter] know? It's just it's just determine whether or not it's for you, you know? Um for me, it is. It's really really really cool. I would invest in it now even if I hadn't, especially because I know that it's you can't bump them out. Um that's why we invest in recessives a lot. Um, >>

yeah. >>

And you just choose which side of the coin you're on and uh, you know, let it let it play out, you know, long term. >>

I I agree with that. I think it's a top four gene, without a doubt. Um, >>

yeah. >>

And, uh, we just need more information. We need uh, we need to figure it out. >>

Yeah. No one can come out and give all the answers. you know, when you speak with Ralph, I'd love to, you know, hear his you, you know, what he's what he thinks about it, what he's seen, what he's learned. Um, that's just really the path to to knowing everything and and being able to understand it. And again, I'm not prescri giving any prescriptions for exactly how it is. I just want to I want to share how it's been. >>

You never know, Ralph might just come out next week and just drop all these news freaking like stuff that we didn't know and might be like, "Oh [ __ ] here we go." >>

Love that. >>

That'd be amazing. you know, I learned so much, you know, for sure >>

and on trap talk, what better place? You know what I mean? Come on, let's be real. >>

Um, so, okay, question for you, Justin. Are you going to move differently now when it comes to looking at stuff that you've never seen before? Like, you know, if you were to approach this whole Cosmo uh situation with something else and you like it, >>

are you going to move a little differently? You're going to buy it if you like it? I'm just wondering like what you've learned from this. I don't think I've learned from the at all. [laughter] >>

I mean, yeah, it sounds terrible, but I should have learned something from it, maybe. >>

But but reality is is that these are you just don't know until you find out on things, you know, and and just if you love an animal, if you love the look of it, you know, I mean, people every time anybody invests in a dinker, it's it's the same sort of thing. There's a learning process. You're going to find out if if it's genetic, you know, if it's simple, if it's recessive, if it's codom. That's part of the the fun of the game a little bit. And if you don't like any uncertainty, then >>

then there's there are genes that you can buy, >>

you know. >>

Yeah. >>

This wouldn't be one of them right now at this very second. So, I like uncertainty because uncertainty means a lot of people are going to sit on the edge. sit on on the sidelines and and anybody who >>

I mean of course with uncertainty means things can go different ways right but all people stay on the sidelines aren't even in the game >>

I want I want to be playing for a win potentially >>

yes by learning and growing >>

and uncertainty is like man when it's on your side it's the reward on that is God you as you already know Justin like when it's on you that proved it out man it's a good feeling >>

asymmetric risk equals asymmetric reward >>

yep big time. >>

Yeah. >>

Scare money. Scare money. Don't make money. >>

Play big, you win big. That's just how. And then in the same way, if you lose, you you you play you pay play big, you can lose big as well. There's no guarantees, you know? >>

That's why you got to play a lot. >>

Yeah. But also like >>

the more you play, the more you have a chance to win. That's all. >>

But even even when luck doesn't seem to be on your side, just don't give up, dude. Like you just don't like you don't get into a pity party. You don't go to like let me round up everyone who's pissed off right now and let's kind of like [ __ ] on this thing. Like no, man. like you're going to see through it just like everything else. Um, and everything is all about the learning curve and and figuring things out. Like Justin, how many years are you in this game now? Full-time? >>

21. Yeah. >>

20. >>

21. 21 or 22 now. Yeah. Right in that range. >>

And here you are on a podcast still learning, which is wild to me. Okay. It's never ending. And that's how it should be. We should always be learning. >>

I want to bring something up here. Sometimes me and >>

I'll be right back. Go ahead. >>

Sometimes me and Justin will we'll be talking, right? and he'll he'll call me and he'll ask me, "Hey, what do you think?" And I'm like, in my head I'm like, "Bro, hold up, Justin. That that question from you doesn't even feel right." [laughter] You get me? Like, how many times do you get that response, Justin? >>

A lot. But I don't I look at every all all the different breeders is essentially equal. So, I I'm really curious about other people's perspectives on things. >>

It shows who you are, you know. Yeah. >>

Yeah. >>

But um >>

for sure. >>

Yeah. So, you know what we ought to do here at this point is let's let's look at some of the other awesome cosmoses. Let me show show some of the crazy stuff because there's 35 other clutches. Let me just show you like the best of the best kind of some interesting animals and hopefully give inspire people a little bit on >>

what uh >>

I don't know. Are you able to uh get me to uh >>

No, we got to wait for him. But I can't wait to see more animals. I'm telling you. Yeah. >>

I can't wait to see more. >>

Now you don't get to see them. >>

Yeah. So far, the out of the ones you showed, um, if I remember correctly, my favorite was that first one that you were really happy with >>

that the one with DG. >>

Um, >>

yeah, the DG clown chocolate >>

the DG clown chocolate cosmos. Yeah, that thing was was amazing. I didn't think it'd work with chocolate initially and yet it really did. >>

Yeah, it worked out really well. >>

Yeah, now we got away from him. >>

No. I'm just queuing it up here so we can show some show some bangers. >>

You couldn't keep the conversation going for like three minutes. >>

Listen, we we're not the master. We're >>

We're both very, you know, we're a little awkward in our >>

Hope you guys out there people out there. All right. Real sneaky. >>

I hope people realize how crucial I am to these podcasts. >>

You're professional. >>

Thank God. [ __ ] Jesus. I'll be right back. >>

Don't leave. Please don't leave. I'm just kidding. Um, all right. Listen, real quick. Um, Amelio, I I you know, I know I was controlling a lot of the topics tonight or today. Is there anything you want to say to Justin or anything to the people out there who you and what I mean by that like people who were affected by the scrambler topics we had this year? Like we we talked about a lot this year, but at the end of the day, you shouldn't give up on it, right? >>

No, you got to work what you love and then continue to uh to learn as you go with every clutch, just like Justin's doing with every single Cosmo clutch. Um, no. Justin was talking about showing more animals, bro. >>

Show them. Let's do it. >>

Put me Put me back on share if you can. >>

All right. Let's do it. Yeah, let's do it. >>

Let's just uh some of these you have seen as you go through them, but you see some of the variation here and I think you guys will will key into it a little bit. Spots yellow belly cosmos DG. But look at this one compared to some of the ones we come up here. The Cosmos Mario DG. I like that one a lot. >>

Busy, but then you have these that are much busier. I love this snip right here. I love the color of it. >>

Wow, look at that one. >>

Got some of the blackhead stuff. Blackhead yellow belly cosmos. Really interesting there. It really kind of blew up this pattern here on the side a lot. >>

That that red tint is something else, man. Like there's something. >>

Yeah. >>

That's like blackhead is just beautiful. Bringing out that that really nice red on the side and the open sides. Right. >>

See that was another one of my favorite that I saw. >>

This animal turned out really good. Yeah. >>

See that animal I also sent out into the V unit because I loved it. [clears throat] >>

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. This one I was really happy with. Like a really wide backstripe and the mahogany, you know, really really really good stuff. Again, another dark gene that is a bit inconsistent in mahogany. >>

Yes, >>

chocolate. >>

So, here's an interesting one. Chocolate cosmos. And these are very variable. I've catched a couple of these. This is poset monarch. We're about to get a result back on that. Be really cool to prove out. Um, the color tone on these animals is kind of, you know, all over the place. Very interesting. Some of them are kind of tan. Some of them OD seems like it reduces the pattern on it a little bit. Um, compared to some of the other animals. Um, but you can see some of that that granting still in the dorsal. This one is really surprising to me. I don't know what made this result. It was only fire yellow belly in the pairing with cosmos. It's had pi. That does have some effect, but but just look at those sides. >>

Yeah. >>

Again, [snorts] another unusual result from it. Could that be white flame showing itself? >>

Could it be? Again, again, from all my original animals, I wasn't seeing clear white flames. >>

And all those original animals made these. >>

Yeah, it's empty. >>

Where's these interactions coming from exactly? >>

Yeah. >>

Um, >>

yeah, >>

it's one of those lace ones a little bit iffy. This >>

Now, I heard white flame is very subtle. like it's not a like if you if it's isolated by itself in a in a snake, it's it's not visibly >>

I would agree with that based on my results. I have a hard time digging it out if um by itself. >>

Interesting. >>

Some of these are really interesting. >>

There's the original girl. [sighs] Now you admit Justin like somebody Justin Justin somebody somebody new coming into this hobby looking at this stuff don't you think they're going to be turned off on Cosmos right now until things are proven out like you think it's gonna kind of like halt things in a bit or no? >>

I think uncertainty always depresses a market a little bit. People want certainty. You know think about think about the best selling stuff as the stuff that has fully guaranteed you no risk involved. Um, it's, you know, any kind, anytime you're working with a a mutation that figuring things out, learning by it, you're gonna be people who want to sit on the sidelines for that. And sometimes in the past that's been me even. Um, but this to me is a it's it's pretty straightforward in the sense of it's a really, really, really good result. The odds seem to be off. We're trying to figure that out. But I'm still loving the animals. Personally, I'm loving how this looks. >>

I think it's I think it's phenomenal. But again, the other side of the coin is making less equals uh actually increases the chance that the average person can make money at it. >>

Um because what ends up happening, and this is kind of the >>

I want to say it's a dark secret of the the Kodom world is that whenever there's a new Kodom, >>

usually the profits are dominated by whoever has it first. like dominated um because they just produced the crap out of it in such high numbers that unless you're one of the very first investors, you end up kind of like it's like catching a falling knife, right? Um if you know that the other people who who are all kind of a level playing field, we're all making around 25% of the animals that are really desirable, that means that there's a lot more people who can get involved in the action um before the numbers get to be really high. Um, and I think that's that's definitely a positive, >>

Justin. Some of those animals that you showed, and granted I'm I'm a little bit on a delay. What looking at the bigger pictures, >>

um, a lot of those that flaming on some of the simpler combos, >>

that's not normal for it to go all the way up to the dorsal in the back. >>

That's a super white flame. I think >>

I mean >>

whatever the flame or even if it's not flame whatever it's doing to those animals that yellow belly flame that is usually 20 30% of of what it it is normally it's it's it's all the way up like that effects are are really wild and nice. >>

Yeah. Yeah. >>

Really nice. >>

Pardon me. I'm not the best at I you know you know uh explaining what I see. >>

[laughter] >>

Oh, like I mean I know what you mean though. I mean just like look at the whites on the sides of this snake. How it literally almost goes all the way around it. >>

Yeah. >>

Um dude, okay. Again, we don't know, but I'm I'm [ __ ] betting that's a super white flame. That's a Trump flame right there. That's how white that [ __ ] flame is, dude. It's >>

I think that's a super form of something that we're looking at. I really do. Has to be. Like look how extreme that is, >>

right? >>

Many of you Yes, I know. [laughter] >>

Let's say you Let's say your guess you could win a million dollars. If you had a guess right now, what would you say super or not super in that snake? >>

If you had a guess, >>

I mean, I'm not putting money. I don't have enough information. [laughter] >>

You're pretending. I HAVE A MILLION DOLLARS IN MY HAND RIGHT NOW. I WILL GIVE IT TO YOU IF YOU'RE RIGHT. WOULD YOU SAY THAT'S A SUPER OR NOT? ALO, JUST JUST [ __ ] AROUND, PLEASE, FOR ME, FOR THE SAKE OF THE SHOW. >>

Yeah, I guess. I mean, it's there's definitely something different going on there. >>

Justin, what would you say? Justin, if you if it came down to a million- dollar guess right now, you you win a you win a you win a million dollars if you guess this right. What would you say? Super or not super? >>

I would say not just based on I don't think I don't know what pairings are going on over there. I don't I think it may be a little early for it to be likely to be white super white flame. I think a lot of the animals he's made that are Cosmos white flame look phenomenal like that. And I just I everyone I see I love. Um I would love to see the rest of the clutches. >>

I want to see the parents from those clutches and and the parents, you know, it's really those animals are just bar none insanely amazing and and that's what sold me and sold so many people on the project. We love those snakes. >>

Um Yeah. >>

Right. >>

So are people are people buying white flame stuff overseas as well or is all that white flame stuff happening in here? Like I'm curious like are people investing into the co white flame just like cosmos as well separate? >>

I don't think they're doing much separate right now. Now that might change in the future. You know a lot of my clients overseas who have bought some of this stuff they bought, you know, really nice Cosmos white flame clowns. >>

Yeah. >>

Um and they're just they're phen phenomenally good good animals. And some of uh some of my clients though that I speak to over there are like, "Hey, Justin, why am I not getting half of the my my offspring look like these awesome awesome parents? I All I can do is show you what I've you know what I've seen as well. I've seen the same thing." >>

Why are they asking you? You're not the one. [laughter] >>

Well, they shouldn't be asking me, but but you know, I have relationships with them. I have good relationships. >>

Of course, relationships are everything in this hobby. You got You got to have relationships. >>

Yeah. Um so, okay, hey, I got to ask you, Justin. How are you going to work your White Flame stuff that you're hatching out? Is it all going to go back into Cosmos? What are you going to do with your white flame stuff? >>

I don't know if it's white flame or not, but I'm going to do I'm going to keep mixing these together and playing with them and making fantastic snakes at low numbers and enjoying the enjoying the game, making the best looking snakes I can make. Let everyone figure it out. Let let the stories come forward, you know, and and to me, I to me it's it's straightforward. We're pushing forward just like we always would, just knowing that things are more complicated than than straightforward right now on this project. You know, we're still bring taking that uh Cosmos triple head exanthic DG clown and bringing to an exic DG clown female. So maybe we'll get a a crazy crazy, you know, Cosmos Exanic DG clown this year. That'd be that'd be insane. It might be really hard to hit based on what I've seen. And that makes me even more excited. If we can hit that animal, it'll be a really really hard to make crazy good combo. And that's in in my mind, that's like the holy grail. >>

Justin, you you you brought up the red gene with blackhead, right? >>

For me, with the little experience I have with the clutches that I have with Monsoon, and I've heard others bring this up. Have you ever noticed that uh fractal uh darkness [clears throat] that people bring up sometimes with monsoon as something that it's carrying in in uh the monsoon gene? >>

Could could that >>

in the heads you mean >>

here? >>

In the heads you mean like the heads that have their fractal look before they become before you have visuals? >>

Yeah. There's there's like your regular heads and then there's some heads that they have like a dark look to them where it's they call that fractal. Have you heard that before? >>

You know the word fractal was initially given to every hat monsoon that it was visual. I mean people were saying like oh these are all fractals which means hat monsoon and they were it was a way of essentially turning it into a kodom and saying it has a name and the super the superfractal is a monsoon which to me even if it was a kodom you could say it would be cool to call fractal superfractal not fractal monsoon that makes no sense but um I think I think he monsoon just has a look on its own I don't think it required I don't know there's anything else connected to it in my opinion I think >>

it's It's variable as far as how visual it is, but it's always it's almost always visual to some extent. Other codeoms can cover it up to an extent, but but I think it's just a in the same way a hat pie has markers. I think that you know there's there's hat monsoon markers and they're pretty easy to spot if you know what you're looking for if the combo. The reason the reason I brought that up, you know, and I know it was out of left field, is because I've noticed a different look that >>

you would think is almost inheritable and and would make the monsoon different, >>

but what ends up happening is this stuff generally gets separated, >>

right? Say so say there is a another kodom that is connected to a lot of monsoons out there. That means that when you breed them, you know, you breed one of those monsoons, it'd all be you all have monsoons and half of them would have that subtle codon that you're talking about. Okay? [clears throat] Unless people are choosing picking for that code, it'll eventually get weeded out >>

because people want monsoons and they're going to choose based on other factors like what the combo is, what the sex is, etc. And unless people are trying to identify those subtle that's kind of like you know almost every blackhead has lost the red and ringer gene because people didn't know how to recognize them well enough outside of the uh blackhead. Um and then what ends up happening is after a while they start disappear from collections because nobody is breeding for them and they eventually start to disappear. And then my other question, my other question to you is now that you have all this monsoon experience, >>

again, I know this is a Cosmos episode, but I think it kind of connects a little bit. >>

Do your thing, buddy. >>

A few years a few years ago, people were saying that monsoons were hitting at a lower rate, just like we're talking just like we're saying with Cosmos. Was that was that just a myth? >>

I think so. You know what though? I can do a quick I can pull up every monsoon I've ever had and just do the same math I just did on the other one. >>

Okay. >>

A little harder though because some of them be visual, some of them will be visual to head and some of them will be head to head. So it' be harder to do that math quickly. >>

I want I don't see that. I don't see that in my experience. >>

Okay. Okay. For a while the speculation out there was oh where are all these monsoons? Uh you know there could be uh you know something with mortality. There could be they could be hitting at at less you know less less odds. So >>

I think I think the reason why that is because a lot of people were seeing thinking they saw markers and calling things >> hetmonets. Gotcha. Gotcha. >>

And there but but you know when you want something to be true you see all kinds of stuff you know 100%. >>

So um so I think people had a bunch of poset monsoons like this definitely had markers and I didn't get any monsoons out of it. I'm not getting, you know, when I shoot you out of these clutches and then therefore it creates a story that >>

Okay, that's that's that's the reason I brought it up because >>

that's the reason I brought it up because I thought maybe that was something that we could compare >>

but uh you know I wanted to ask >>

this in a little in a way this is the opposite of that because I desperately would love to say I understand all this and I'm seeing all these things and if I had a great story I could tell um then that'd be ideal in scenario like ah this is this and this is this and the odds are fine. If I could say that, I would at this point. >>

Well, the the story is still >>

I don't have a theory. >>

The story is still in production right now. So, don't worry. It's the story the story will come out. Oh, it's gonna come out. Um, it's just being made. [laughter] >>

Yeah. Now, I can't wait. Honestly, I can't wait to see a super now. >>

Yeah, >>

that's actually posted supers. I don't know to, you know, I would love, you know, to have you ask him, you know, to what extent they're proven now and everything, but you know, you hatch things that you claimed were supers um early on and they were amazing again, but all these are amazing. So, how do you say it's slightly more amazing than something else? But >>

yeah, >>

um yeah, there's there potentially could be data on that that you get from >>

So, he did say he produced supers. >>

Yeah, he's posted. In fact, I have a picture. I >>

was looking last night and I just found it. Let's do it. >>

I went on his page and didn't see any supers. I see Cosmo White Flame stuff. I don't see supers. >>

I was looking I was going through last night just finding some pictures. Here's just one. And again, you know, sometimes I would claim something, too, but you find out later I was wrong, you know. So, I'm not saying that I don't know to what extent this is right or wrong. share. I can only share. Hold on. I'm not so technically uh >>

Are you on Instagram? What are you sharing? >>

Yeah, I'm sharing from it was someone I don't know where where I found it, but it was on uh Here we go. >>

It's crazy. Whoa. >>

This is just really This is really old. Um >>

you can tell >>

five six years ago this was posted. Um and I don't know >>

anything other than the picture >>

that's what that's he's calling that a super >>

This is quite different than Yellow Belly Cosmo stuff now. So he may I don't know man. >>

Yeah. >>

What are you think What are you thinking Amelia? >>

I mean if it is it's not doing it for me. Yeah, >>

to me this does not look like a predictable. >>

I'm gonna be honest with you, >>

you know, we could do other things with it obviously, but I mean that that's not doing it for me. >>

Yeah, there's probably updated pictures, new stuff. And again, I just >>

I can see why you didn't go for supers, Justin. [laughter] >>

That wasn't why. That wasn't why because someone says this, you know. Okay, look at >>

I can't hear him. Not to throw anyone under the bus, but somebody has been >>

somebody has um Oh, so not to throw anyone out under the bus, but there was a guy who was putting super hurricane clowns on Facebook for years and then when people bought those animals, they weren't. And I don't think this guy was purposely lying. I think he really wanted to be true. >>

Say that again. Say that again for me. Say that again. What you just said. I'm just saying when someone posts a picture that's a really old picture. So I've posted pictures in the past and said, "Oh, blankety blank." And then five years later when I breed it, I find out I was wrong. You know, so I don't ever begrudge anyone on that, especially pre-shed testing. >>

For sure. >>

I'm saying there's a there's a a gentleman who posted lots and lots of super hurricane clowns on Facebook for years over and over and over again. And when people bought those animals, they were not supers. >>

Yep. >>

Um and I think he wanted them to be supers. I don't think he knew they weren't, but he really because he wanted to be super. So, people are so prone to making mistakes in this industry and no one's immune. >>

I think the biggest thing is have a really good sense of humility ideally and a good sense of self-doubt. So, we all need in this business. >>

I just don't like the amount of uh mistakes on the uh overseas rap sheet right now. It's [laughter] starting to add up. I'm just letting you know, man. >>

It hurts people bad. It does. It hurts the game, dude. It makes people feel like, well, what the hell is this about? And so, listen, Ball Python game is about transparency. It's kind of how we grow. It's how we move. And it's why Justin's willing to come on any show and talk about it because there's nothing to hide. But man, whatever you are trying to hide, it's not going to hide forever. It's going to come out at some point. So, >>

yeah. Justin, I have another question. >>

You may not be hiding, but you just need to show when you learn something ideally. >>

That's it. Go ahead. >>

Justin, I have another question for you. Okay. I know you've worked hurricane forever. >>

Okay. What's going on with this whole split thing, bro? >>

I don't know anything about it, >>

bro. I see the pictures. >>

Every animal this guy posts now is split. Um, how did he not know this? >>

What's split? Remind me. Well, can you please break down what split? >>

Again, I don't know enough. I'm with Justin. But now every animal posted a split and they're saying that the really good hurricanes are hurricane splits and that everyone that's produced really good hurricanes, they were producing hurricane splits. >>

What? >>

Then you'd be it'd be like this situation though. You would see it you'd see literally a split in the jeans when you bred them. You get half of hurricanes and half splits and one quarter both. Right. >>

Yeah. Jeez. >>

And that's what the dude is advocating now. I don't think I I don't see anyone out there claiming that's what they're making >>

other than him. >>

Yes, he's trying to create a buzz again. I I would think. And again, respect to all out there. I'm not attacking anyone, >>

but how did you not know this? Justin, refresh my my brain here. How long have we been working Hurricane? >>

Oh, man. >>

Six plus >>

15 2015 maybe 16. >>

10 years. 10 years. >>

10 years. I mean, that's for me personally. They were out before that even. >>

Yeah. 10 12 years. And this man didn't know he had another gene in in it. >>

I'm I'm calling cap. >>

That's all we're trying. >>

In the end, that's why I tell people you you need to use your eyeballs and just be Yes. >>

Be suspicious. >>

Be suspicious. What's the What's the term? >>

Um >>

well, only only the uh only the paranoid survive. Be a little paranoid. >>

Yeah. you know, >>

and use your eyeballs. Use your eyeballs just because someone claims something, it's no better than their word, >>

and everyone makes mistakes. >>

So, if you don't want to be on the bad side of a mistake, then you need to do some homework, use your eyeballs, think through it, talk to some friends, you know, >>

and if you're, you know, >>

a situation I feel like I was in at one point, um, not too long ago, you know, you cut an egg a little too early and you think the snake has hypo in it and then you tell everyone there's hypo in it. Slow down. Just take your time a little bit and it's okay to be realistic with yourself and tell yourself there's no hypo in that snake and move on. And I just using that as an example. You need to look yourself in the mirror even though you're invested in it. You want it to be what you want to be. But if it's not what it is, you need to [ __ ] realize that and just move on. That's it. Just just work around it. Do what you got. >>

When you've done this when you've done this long enough, you learn to check yourself. When you cut that little window, you're like, "Okay, the odds are the odds are 60% that this animal has what I want." But I have to remember >>

there's 40% still. >>

Okay. [laughter] >>

We've all been there. Okay. >>

What's the Bible say? The hardest deceive above all things, right? >>

We think readers know that. >>

All right, Justin. Anything you want to close off with? Great episode. We had a lot of people comment on how great and impactful this transparent episode was. So, why don't you uh send us off? Anything you want to say to the people tonight? >>

No, man. Just an invitation, I guess, for anyone

Who's working with with uh the Cosmos or anything else? Like, let's, let's share some data. Let's share some results, you know, whatever. You know, it's a little, little plug for Clutch. Clutch helps you really dig down into your results, you know, and see and correlate it over time and run the numbers and everything like that. So, use whatever programmer you're going to use, whether it be question or another one. Like, let's, let's not just show amazing animals only as if they're standalone. There's other babies around them. There's a lot of data around all this stuff. There's ways to understand things and let's, uh, let's be, let's be as transparent as possible and, you know, ask the questions, have the answers. Let's do it.

>> Yeah. Let's put our brains together. That's all we are. We just got to figure this out together. That's all.

Um, >> we've been, we've been talking about Clutch. I love it. I love putting holdbacks in. I love, uh, grading my pairings. I love Clutch. If you haven't tried Clutch out there, try it. Try it for 30 days.

>> I guarantee you're gonna, you're gonna keep it.

Um, >> Justin, man, thank you for all you do and thank you for being our ambassador to the game, >> worldwide, growing it, and >> you know, thank you as always, bro.

>> Oh, and I want to say thanks for being a normal dude, Justin. You're just a [ __ ] normal guy who loves what he does. And it's very comforting to be like working with someone like you who likes to talk about topics like this when you're just yourself, man. I got to say it's very refreshing to see someone just be who they are, you know?

>> Thanks. Yeah, that's all I can, that's all I know how to be. So, keep it easy.

>> All right, guys. Uh, Canova Reptiles on IG, on on YouTube. Please, man, if you really want to tap in next level stuff in the ball python game, join this Patreon. I've only hear nothing but amazing things. Our VIP parties are talk of the town. So, please check it out. But give it up. It's a wrap for Justin Cabela. Happy New Year and holidays, by the way. Give it up, ladies and gentlemen.

>> Guys, see you on the other side.

>> Thank you, bro.

>> Hold on. I need a, I need redemption. Okay, Justin, ask me how it's like having two kids or ask me how it's been.

>> So, how you doing with the two kids, man?

>> Great. I want four more. Easy peasy. Bring it on. More.

>> [laughter]

>> H, >> you know, after three, it's all the same. After three, it's all the same. It doesn't matter three or 10.

>> Been waiting to say that to you. But anyways, thank you so much. Have a good day, Justin. Appreciate you, buddy.

>> All right, see you guys.

>> What a guy. Can't say nothing bad about that guy.

>> I love him. He's, he's, he's awesome. So down to earth and chill.

>> Again, exit out. Come back in. Come on. Exit out. Come back in. Exit out. Come back in. Exit out. Man, good show. I feel great. It's crazy. I got the whole day ahead of me. Normally when I'm done with a podcast, it's like, "All right, better wind down for the night." And it's hard to wind down after Trap Talk because I'm all worked up. I'm excited. I'm really happy. Um, I hope you guys enjoyed this episode. Big E.

>> Yeah. What I said, I said I love that guy, bro.

>> Yeah. Me, too.

>> Yeah. So, great.

>> What better, what better person to lead this game? You know what I'm saying? Like, he, he's, he's just a standup [ __ ] dude who just wants nothing but greatness for this hobby.

>> Yep. Yep. Um, I think people got have a much better understanding of, uh, Cosmos going into your episode with, uh, with Prague and Ralph and, uh,

>> yeah,

>> it's going to be a great conversation.

>> Yeah, you know, honestly, I don't know what to expect. Um, in deep down in my heart, I'm hoping that podcast shines a lot of light on what co, what's happening with Cosmos and Ralph looks great and Devin and and myself, you know, all positive things I'm sure will come out of that episode next week. Um, and that's it, man. Plain and simple. I'm rooting for everybody and this was a great, uh, topic. Um, next week is our, uh, all-star new new breed on the block. We kind of threw this one as a curveball, but we had to cover this, bro. And I mentioned the Big E 2026. You're going to see a lot more Big E and MJ episodes where it's just us because listen, we love the new breeders, dude. But there's a lot of things that aren't discussed that me and Big E could lay down for you guys. So, just be ready for a lot of one-on-one episodes of with me and Big E next year because we just want to inform you guys, keep you guys excited, keep you guys tapped in. Uh, the ball python game is the best game for sure because it's Go ahead.

>> Also, let us know, uh, what you thought of this, uh, midday,

>> uh, podcast.

>> Yeah, I'll do these more, bro. [ __ ] dude. 9 a.m. I'm, I'm built for 9 a.m.s. Let's go.

>> This is pretty good, man. I like we had, we had a, a hella amount of people in in in there. Yeah. I mean, it's awesome. So,

>> yeah, I got all these chores to do, but I'm all excited to go do them now because I'm all amped up. So, it's like,

>> I got stuff to do, too. [laughter]

>> Yeah, it was different, but it was great.

>> All right, Emilio, appreciate you as always, man. Like, you're, you're my go-to, man. When it comes to this type of [ __ ], nobody better, I feel like. And so, I appreciate your passion, your hard work, your dedication, but your loyalty as first and foremost. Um, Billino Reptiles on IG. Go subscribe and also to his Patreon as well. Find the link description below. You're my boy, dog. I appreciate you. But give IT UP. IT'S WIGG. LADIES AND GENTLEMEN,

>> YOU GUYS, [applause]

>> have a good day, bro. We'll talk soon. All right, guys. Thank you so much. Hope you enjoy this episode. Drop a comment, though. Let me know if you think these 9:00 a.m. Pacific Standard Time, 12 Eastern times are are legit. Let me know if you guys like these. I do. If I can free up my night, dude. I'm down to do these morning, uh, episodes all day, every day. But enjoy your week, man. That's all we have. It's Monday. All right, let's get after it this week. Let's go get it. Um, and yeah, make the best of it. I appreciate you guys so much. Hit that like button before you guys leave. Uh, hit that subscribe button. Hit that notification bell. Select all. You'll be reminded every episode you see right here on the screen. Monday through Sunday. The only network giving you brand new content with actual substance. Okay? This isn't just like, "Oh, I got a reptile podcast." No, dude. This is where you learn the real deal Holyfield stuff right here on this network. All audio platforms as well. So, if you don't want to look at us, I don't blame you. Go listen all day every day. Apple podcast, Spotify, Google Play, all the major ones. So, you guys are awesome, man. I really appreciate your love and support. Hit that like button before you guys leave. Please join the Trap Talk Patreon family. Coolest Patreon family in the game. Tap into the network. Tap in to the Discord and the awesome Instagram group chat. Appreciate all the love and support. Shout out to all the sponsors. Find the link in description below. That's all we have for today. Enjoy the rest of your day. Again, thank you so much for the love and support.