Transcription
I think the majority of people have never asked themselves that question, like, why do I make money? What is the point of me making all this money? What is my goal in life? How do I want this to perpetuate beyond my lifetime?
I'm Sheree. I'm Jean. And I'm Holly. And we're the Tiger Sisters. We are your Wall Street and Silicon Valley big sisters. And we're a top 10 business podcast on Spotify where we talk about money, power, and love.
When most of us think about wealth, we think about salaries, investments, and maybe retirement accounts. But ultra high net worth families live in a completely different financial universe. That world is run through family offices, private companies that manage everything from investments to philanthropy to legacy planning. And at the center of one of those, and the most respected, is Bessemer Trust. Our guest today is Holly McDonald, the current COO and incoming CEO of Bessemer Trust. Holly has spent her career helping families preserve, grow, and pass on their wealth, while also building her own framework of balance and priorities with purpose. Today, we're talking about what family offices actually do, how the wealthiest manage their money differently, and what lessons anyone can use in their own financial lives.
Welcome to the Tiger Sisters podcast, Holly. Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here. Thank you for having me.
So, our first question is for those who don't know, what exactly is a family office, and what qualifies as ultra high net worth?
So, I think a family office is really a dedicated team who is helping, certainly, with your financial life, but really all aspects of your financial life. Um, and that would include everything from investment management to help with tax planning, estate planning, philanthropy. Really importantly, and something that I think can get lost in this discussion of family offices, is it's not just about accumulating wealth, growing wealth, and and even preserving wealth. That's certainly very, very important. I think, certainly for us, it's really about how you're bringing peace of mind to your clients all across the board. So, not just wealth, but really well-being for the overall family. And that's not easy, but it's super important. And that's where we get a lot of satisfaction out of working very closely with our clients.
Yeah, that sounds kind of like priceless peace of mind.
Yes. But also, if we were to put a price on it, how do you, where is there like a dollar amount that qualifies as ultra high net worth?
I'd say our average client has around $100 million that we're we're managing. So, it's, yeah, hard to define. Different firms define it differently, but, um, that's kind of where where we are right now.
Yeah. All right. We have something to aspire to.
In the next year or two.
Give it six months. Going to give it a good six months for us.
Today's episode is presented by SoFi, the all-in-one finance app that helps you bank, borrow, and invest your money in one place.
Okay. So, I would love to ask you, so you're stepping into the role of CEO at one of the most prestigious family offices in the world. So, what personal values guide you as you prepare for this next chapter of your leadership?
Yeah. So, I, I think maybe just starting with something basic but very important is just integrity. Um, I feel very fortunate to be at a firm where, uh, I feel like I'm able to be my authentic self. I'm able to uphold all of my values. They're very much aligned with our firm and importantly with our clients. So, one thing that's different about us being privately owned, being in only one line of business, and working with these families is that we really sit on the same side of the table as our clients and can be their true trusted advisor. We're not selling them things or pushing products or doing other things, uh, that I think in a lot of the other business models, um, can, uh, can occur and and and do occur. Uh, and so really, that integrity and alignment, um, for me personally, and being able to express that at work has been super important and rewarding.
Yeah, that's actually a really important point. Like when you say it and I think about it, I'm like, "Oh, that's so true." Because so many other money managers have funds that they're basically trying to push, and then they also get a basis or like percentage point off of. So it's like, how can you really say you're truly the fiduciary duty if you also have these other competing goals?
Yeah. You think about it, if you're part of a public company, your ultimate responsibility is to your shareholder, um, which makes sense. Um, that's kind of what you're waking up thinking about. No, that doesn't mean you're doing something on purpose bad to your clients or you're a bad person or something like that, but you could see how at some point, over the course of the relationship, there is likely to be some type of conflict in your goals. Um, and we really are able to avoid that. That's that's the cornerstone of of everything we do. Once you have that alignment, you can then think really clearly, how can I best help my client? That's all we're thinking about. Uh, whether it's that we need to build out new services or do something different or innovate in a different way. Uh, we're able to think about that very clearly. That doesn't mean we're always 100% making the the right decision or, but we have the right incentives and the right alignment, and so we can also pivot where we see that we need to.
I saw online that Bessemer Trust handles $200 billion AUM. You've had previous roles as like CIO, COO, and now incoming CEO. Number one, can you do everything? Like, you're good at everything?
What can't you do?
Yeah. What can't you do?
Is this a real question?
And how has your role transformed and how do you see it transforming further?
Uh, great, great question. Um, I certainly can't do everything. I think one thing I've gotten, um, good at over the years is identifying people who can do things that I can't do as well, or that we need as a firm, and really enabling them and unleashing them to to do those things. So, if I, I think if I have one, um, really important differentiated skill, it's probably that, that identifying that talent and supporting them to do it so that collectively as a team, we can do everything. So, I can't do it myself. I think, uh, if I tried to do everything myself, I would implode and, you know, or blow up or, or something, and that would not be a good way to to go about it. I think that's actually a good myth to just bust for you people out there who are growing in their career, that they need to do everything. Really aspiring to do that is not healthy. That you want would like to certainly always improve. I think for me, this year I've really been focusing in my COO role, uh, improving in technology and operations. That's something that I've been interested in, and I've touched lightly in in different roles, but now I have the opportunity to dig a lot deeper into it. Been focused on our Gen AI procedures and processes and getting the right people again involved in that. That's been super rewarding and something I'm not, I wouldn't say, you know, a few years ago I would have put, you know, top of the list of of my skills. So, important to always be improving, but not trying to do everything. You know, you really need to do some things like sleep and have a life and have fun. And, you know, I'm sure you're alluding to, you know, balance. Balance is sort of an elusive concept as well. I think this, there's this image of some balance being perfectly aligned, which never really happens, as we know. Uh, but over time, that the things that are important to you professionally and personally, that you are prioritizing that over time and making time for all of those things, otherwise something's going to really get out of whack.
Yeah, I mean, one thing we talked about earlier is that concept of having it all, and how it's like, kind of like quite outdated at this point, and I feel like most women don't really ascribe to that versus it's more so like, you can have it all, but not at the same time, or like, where do you weigh in on that?
Yeah, I, I totally agree with having it all, but not at the same time. Um, or not always at the same time. Yeah.
I think there are certain moments where you may want to lean into one part of your your life, uh, where you have a big goal, and it's kind of, you sort of know it's like that moment you, you really better lean in into it. I think for me now, career-wise, it's, it's certainly that moment. I'll be taking on, uh, the CEO role early next year. This is a good time to be really focused, um, on my job. That doesn't mean I'm ignoring my twin 12-year-olds. Uh, just spoke to them before coming on here, hearing about their latest grades and homework and, you know, their processes around that. Um, and, you know, my husband's a great supporter. There were times when I leaned into either my relationship with him or my a focus on my kids. I actually, at one point, took, you know, it was a career lateral or down move. Um, he had an opportunity to, uh, take a role in Brazil. We had wanted to live abroad at some point. I was able to shift and get a job there in my the company I was working with at the time. Again, it was sort of lateral or down, >> but I thought that was a good moment to really invest more in my personal life. Um, we had our our kids there. I was >> really focused on them. Um, at the time, again, still am, but just hour-wise, a lot early on, especially with, you know, two two little babies who are depending on you to feed them and take care of them. You know, that has to be number one priority. Um, but then, you know, at other moments, you can, you can shift a bit and, you know, sort of keep those things going that are important to you, but maybe lean more in to another part. I think one thing is just, I was reflecting on this conversation. I think it's so cool, by the way, that you combine, um, sort of the the hardcore finance and technology with, uh, just how it can all come together for for people, and they're real humans doing this.
Yeah. Exactly.
We're not chatbots doing these things. We're real people doing doing these things. Uh, but if if you have a long-term goal to keep moving up in your career and have a family and and do all these things, I, it can be good to just think about not kind of stepping out of the race at any point, or not even the race, like just the effort, you know. I think that's one thing that I've seen, um, you women, certain moments can feel really overwhelming when all of these things are maybe coming at you at one time, and it can be tempting, I think, to just say, "I'm going to take myself out of this." Now, there can be some really rational reasons to do that, and maybe some different on on-ramps that you can get back in. So, I'm not saying never, but, you know, if there's a way that you can sort of keep these things going, even acknowledging that you're not super leaning in to to one thing right now, um, you can, uh, Dr. Laura Morgan Roberts is someone that I've had the chance to interact with, who's talks a lot about inclusivity, and it's, it's kind of like the ability to fade a little bit, like have a little more flexibility at a certain moment. That doesn't, that's okay. Everyone is doing that, whether they're telling you or not. You know,
True.
Sometimes, um, you know, people are going out shopping during lunch and not telling anyone, but, you know, they're doing a lot of things. And I, I was actually thinking about, you know, some colleagues I used to work with, you men who would go to a golf store like every day during lunch, and they're not telling anyone what they're doing, right? If you wanted to go, it's the same thing, right? It's okay, um, you can fade a little bit, >> but to not fully take yourself out because it feels overwhelming. If you can hang in there, uh, I think that's that's been one thing that's really helped me, um, in my career, even when it felt, you know, rough or or tough, uh, to just stick stick with it.
I'm obsessed with this.
That's such good. That's >> like the new modernday >> like how the modern woman should be thinking about it, less in terms of balance, more in terms of priorities and different seasons, different chapters, and how you can, I don't know, weight different things differently at different points in your life.
100%. Really well said.
And I love you said that. Get it better.
No, I love your phrasing of like, it's okay to fade a little bit. It's like fading in and out of like having more intensity versus less intensity at different times for different reasons.
Yeah. And not taking yourself out completely.
Yeah.
And you say that because it's, it's harder to get back.
It's really hard to get get back in. Okay. You know, it's not impossible. And I think there are certain industries or or sectors or companies where it's easier to do that, um, than others. But, you know, I, my experience in finance is that there's, it's a pretty high entry cost, essentially. And so once you're in there and you have a good role, um, and again, you know, I, I think we often high achievers put so much pressure on themselves to be performing at this A+ I'm giving it my 100% every single day level all the time. And I think it can actually be quite healthy. And this is really regardless of where you are in your life or your career. But I found that where you do fade a little bit, and that could just be like, I'm not going to go to this networking event tonight. I'm going to go home and like read a book and write in my journal and hang out with my kids a little bit, or or just sleep or do yoga, or whatever it may be.
All sounds great.
All sounds great, right? Um, but then the next day, guess what? You might have a much better idea at work.
That saves you hours and hours. That's that's what I, I some of my best ideas are when I'm going for a run in the morning, um, with our our little dog, and I see him doing something funny, and I'm like, "Oh, wait. I should really be doing X at work with my team." You know, it just pops in my brain, and and that's way more effective than had I just been sitting at my desk trying to, you know, banging my head against my computer trying to come up with a new idea. Fading a little, taking a new perspective, taking a breath. Um, it's not at all, uh, I think hurting productivity. I think that can actually help your your medium-term productivity.
Yeah. It's like maximizing what I call shower thoughts.
Yes.
Right? Like when you're in the shower, you have the best ideas, and it's because you're not, I don't know, you're not distracted by all the million things that are going on around you, and you're not like at your desk trying to like grind away.
100%. Yeah. And for whatever, I think for everyone, that can be a different thing, whether it's, yeah, exercising, showering, just walking around. You know, Jeff Bezos has has said this, his most productive hour is just he walks around in the morning, like doing nothing for an hour, and I think comes up with these brilliant ideas.
It's redefining productivity.
Yeah.
Yeah. Or redefining how to set yourself up for productivity.
I think that's right.
So, Sheree, how do you think about your checking and savings account? Because for me, checking is money that I need to use in the next three to four months, and then savings is everything after that, like long-term. And because of that, I feel like most of us don't think about the interest that we could be earning on those accounts.
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So, back to the topic of family offices. So, how do family offices manage money differently from the way that most people think about personal finance, in terms of the preservation, growth, and passing on wealth?
So, I, I think there are actually more similarities in in terms of how family offices are, uh, approaching wealth than than not. Um, and I was reflecting on this, obviously, most of the time I am thinking about this ultra high net worth space, as well as, uh, family offices specifically, but I, I do think a lot of the, the principles can be applied, you know, more broadly.
Um, maybe just to start with, probably the most important thing, like, what is the purpose of the wealth? What is one trying to do with their wealth? Are they trying to preserve it? If they are, for what reason? Um, now, it sounds like, well, of course, you want to preserve it, but, but really, in asking these questions, why, I think it can then help set the other priorities. So, for example, if the purpose of the wealth is to pass along to the next generation, all right, great. So, we know that that can help, um, with a lot of the structuring and, um, tax considerations and and things like that. If, alternatively, the purpose is to increase the wealth for philanthropy, for a really important cause for a family, you know, that may lead to a different structure, asset allocation, types of, um, investments that the family office will be making. So, again, it sounds very basic, but I think that's super important to to start with that, um, and then it goes down, you know, levels from there. Um, if the purpose is to pass it along to the next generation, what are the values associated with the family that you really want to pass along? Because I think, you know, ultimately, >> we really take a step back. Why would you want to pass along your wealth? Like, is it just so your kids can have a super easy life and never worry about things? Like, probably not, >> right? Um, and the majority of our our clients, actually about two-thirds are are our first generation wealth creators. So, they've created a business, >> probably worked very hard, had a lot of grit. Um, and in creating that, >> had a lot of success. >> And so, you know, really, I think the last thing you want is for your children to have no view on on any of that, right? Often, you you really want to pass along those those values as well. So, thinking about how you can use the wealth to really enable them, uh, perhaps to have more choices about how they're spending their time. Um, are they maybe in a better position to be an entrepreneur because they're, you know, receiving this wealth, or they can be, um, a social worker and not make as much money, but, but still have, you know, lifestyle that they they had desired. So, it, it's really kind of drilling down, I think, into those values is is a super important starting point, and then, you know, you can go from there, and we can get super detailed on every technical area that you need to make sure that you're aligned with those goals. But I thought I would just mention that because that's probably the most most important thing.
Yeah. I guess in asking your clients their reasons, is there a most common reason that you hear, and anything surprising?
I'd say the most common is preservation. I've worked very, very hard. Our family has worked very hard at some generation. You know, this, this is both for those who are inheriting the wealth. You know, someone along the way made this money and was super successful, and so preserving it, I think, really is is top of the list. Um, and I'd say along with that, growing it to allow for financial goals to be met, because if you're overly focused on preservation and not doing anything with the wealth, inflation itself will just erode it.
Yeah.
And so whether you, you really want to grow a lot, or you just are trying to preserve and keep up with inflation, there's at least some strategy, you know, that we need to be employing, um, to to really maintain the purchasing power of that wealth over time. So, I'd say that's kind of the most common denominator. Uh, and then from there, and Gene, maybe back to your other question as well, you know, some unique things that family offices might be doing that, um, you know, I'm not doing in my my personal life. Um, not meeting that ultra high net worth, you know, level either, myself personally, um, and not having a lot of time to be thinking, you know, purely about my personal finances either. So, we have to be, my husband and I have to be super organized about how we approach that. But family offices, you know, they may have an interest in a particular, um, type of investment, or I'd say more, some are more invested in or interested in one-off opportunities, >> where they can spend some time analyzing them and and putting a bunch of them together, and, you know, that's not going to be realistic for me to be doing. I'm very busy with my job and my family, etc. So, but if you have a full team that's focused on that, there might be more bespoke investments. Um, there may be a general theme as well, you know, for family offices and just ultra high net worth individuals not needing as to necessarily spend as much of that money over time. That can afford them the opportunity to invest in less liquid assets like private equity, venture capital, you know, things where you're not expecting to get your money back for five to 10 to more years, um, and you have enough certainty around that that you can make those investments. I think for people that are early on in their career, um, you don't know as much about your future liquidity needs. You don't know, okay, I'm feeling good about my salary now. Will I have enough to buy a house in in five years? You know, you wouldn't necessarily want to be investing >> so much that you couldn't meet your other goals along the way. There's more uncertainty around that. So, that's maybe a difference with family office, where they typically have a much longer time horizon.
Yeah. And so have maybe more flexibility.
Yeah. And it affords them the ability to get into these more like illiquid or alternative asset classes that are one, typically just not available to retail investors because of the minimums, and then two, they just don't have that, uh, sort of like runway to be able to play in that area.
Exactly.
Yeah. One thing we've spent some time on is, and I think we've been pretty successful at, is coming up with a way in which, uh, smaller pools of capital, where we're managing it, um, they can also have exposure to private markets. M. >> We've seen excise >> returns there, and particularly, you know, when you're able to get with the top managers, as as we've been, you lucky enough to partner with some of the top managers in the space, >> but you may have even, again, even for an ultra high net worth family, they may have an account for a grandchild that's quite small in the dollars. We still would like the ability for those accounts to take advantage of this opportunity in the market. So, that's something we've spent some time on, and and thankfully, we're able to even for much smaller, uh, amounts of money, get access to those exciting investment opportunities.
Oh, that's awesome. Um, so for everyone who's watching who isn't high net worth, how do they, >> how can you sort of like translate everything that you know and you've learned and you've done over the last 20 plus years to their own approach to investing, or like, what do you do in your own life where you're sort of like maximizing and tapping into this knowledge that you have?
Yeah. So, I, I, it was a really a great opportunity to talk to you about this because I hadn't really thought that much about some of these concepts before, but I think it's quite applicable at the individual level. You know, I'm, I'm not going to be going out and and, uh, creating my own family office. That would be silly. I'll just invest in in my firm. Um, but you can, anyone could essentially think of having their own mini family office, even if it's just themself, or or themself and their partner, spouse, and having some regular dialogue around their financial goals, >> the why. What are we working hard for? What are are we aligned? Um, let's let's talk about that. Um, how are we going to get there? Are there some strategies where we can automate our, uh, goal achievement in a sense? So, for example, I know that of my paycheck, I want to save a certain portion. I want to need to spend a certain portion, and maybe there's some portion that I'd like to, you know, donate to important causes. Um, can I set up like automatic movement of money to meet those goals? Whether it's separate accounts or or, um, just separate ledgers, um, so I don't have to remember that every time I'm getting my paycheck. It's just, it's just kind of happening, and then with some regularity, I'm reviewing that and making some decisions around it. Um, so, it's, it is there is a way, I think, to essentially kind of create a mini family office, um, you know, for yourself. And, and one theme that we've seen in working with our clients, and that I, I would say, uh, in reading industry research, is is consistent with this, is that people are more comfortable, or there's more of a desire to talk more about money. It's less of a taboo subject. I think you're really driving a lot of this. Um, >> yeah, we're really all of your your listeners, um, >> and followers. And it's, I think it's really important and fascinating. You know, we found that when there is greater communication, you're able to have a higher chance of meeting those goals and having it be a positive experience for everyone who's involved in it. So, that's been, I, I think an important shift, and, and one that we encourage our clients, and I would encourage, you know, everyone to think about. And communication does not need to be like, there are different degrees of being open about one's wealth. You know, I'm not suggesting running around telling everyone how much you're making or something, but maybe with your, you know, partner or spouse, that you know, you say, "Wow, it might be helpful to to add this into the conversation." I've shared this before. Um, and just to challenge yourself to, to think, is there a benefit to being a little bit more open and having a discussion about this? Um, and even just to think, you know, very objectively with yourself about it, you know, why am I working hard? What is my goal? Am I on track to achieve that?
Yeah.
Well, it's interesting. Like, we don't learn to ask ourselves those questions in school. Like, there's no class on that. And also, it depends on the environment that you grew up in. Like, a lot of times, like you said, I think in a lot of families, it's taboo to talk about money. It's uncomfortable. You don't really, some people don't have those conversations with their parents, or maybe their parents don't even know.
Yeah. Or their parents sort of like hide all of that from them, and they, they just don't grow up in an environment where it's natural.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
So, I feel like really, it can be really tricky. Um, so, I'm not saying this is an an easy thing, and it may be of starting walking before running. I would say, you know, um, talking a little bit about it, you know, not sort of cornering your parents and saying, "What are you leaving for me?" or, you know, something like that, but just kind of opening opening that that conversation, um, taking it step by step, I think can be can be really healthy.
Yeah. I love your approach of coming at it from like a framework where you're like asking these questions first, because I like, even thinking about myself and thinking about everyone who's like watching this or listening, I think the majority of people have never asked themselves that question, like, why do I make money? Like, what is the point of me making all this money? What is my goal in life? Like, what do I, where do I want to be when I'm 80? And like, how do I want this to perpetuate, you know, beyond my lifetime?
Well, because those are scary and deep and philosophical questions that are not for the everyday. You know what I mean? Those are, I mean, maybe they're shower thoughts, but they are more of like a sit down, reflect.
And also, in addition to that, like, what are the options? You know, like, what can this be for? I don't know, you know.
And I, yeah, I, I totally agree. And, you know, >> I think I'm still in the point of my life where I'm, I'm hopefully in wealth creation mode. I'm working hard. I'm trying to balance all these things. I'm not stopping and reflecting every day, um, about these topics, and, and I think just to the point of like, automating some of this, you know, can you put a calendar reminder in once a year, >> as you get maybe into the new year, you know, that's when you're going to spend two hours doing this, or yeah, >> maybe it's once, um, a quarter. I, you know, whatever it may be, but literally like put it in your calendar, like this is a meeting I need to do. Um, and almost with your savings, I think this is a bill I need to pay. It's the same thing as a bill. I'm paying it to myself, saving it for my goal. Um, and so just, yeah, creating some some guardrails for for yourself because it's not, um, it's really not possible to think about this all the time. You know, again, thankfully, people are engaged in the activities they're doing. But once in a while to check in, I think is is helpful.
Yeah. I think even if you're just having that conversation with yourself, like if you're not partnered, and you have that conversation with yourself, it's like building a family office of one.
Absolutely. Absolutely. And, and once a year, I'm going to write down some things for myself and ask myself these questions and set my goals.
100%.
So, can you give us an example of like, how would you answer that question >> that that you're posing? I'm putting you on this model.
That's a good one. We're getting, we're getting.
Well, because I need a model. I need to model on something because I don't, I don't know how I would answer.
Yeah. No, I love, I love it. Um, I actually majored in philosophy in college, which is >> Oh, yes. Um, um, and there's a, a great, uh, Socrates quote, um, that goes to mind. I mean, you know, what's a conversation without Plato and Socrates? Um, so, "The unexamined life is is not worth living." No, it's, it's a little extreme, but, you know, per philosophical discussions, you know, you kind of start with the extreme and then see where where you end up. So, um, I think reflecting, uh, you know, periodically is is super important. One thing I've realized about myself is that I get a lot of satisfaction, um, out of work. Now, why is that? I, I, I believe in what my firm is doing, I really enjoy working with, with, um, other motivated people. I love seeing other people do well in their career, and if I've been able to help them in some way, I get a lot of satisfaction, um, you know, out of that. Um, I am not as motivated by money. I'm going to not send this to my boss. Tell him I'm super motivated by money. No, of course, you know, but, but it, for me, it's, it's really about the intrinsic value of of the work and contribution that's super motivating to me. Yeah.
Um, you know, money, at the end of the day, can be more of like the, the goal stick or the, the measure of if other people are seeing that I'm doing well, too. So, I, you know, you know, and I joke with my husband, like, I, I love our, our home. I love our family setup. Like, if we happen to win the lottery tomorrow, I would not want to move. Like, moving's a pain in the, you know what, like, it takes a lot of energy. I love spending time with my family, investing in in my relationship with my husband and my kids, um, and, you know, and working, I get a lot of satisfaction out of that. So, it's not, there's not sort of some endgame, you know, that I'm, I'm looking for. Um, I did read a, you know, a good book just about thinking about the different phases of your life and kind of planning for them. Um, Arthur C. Brooks, Strength to Strength, and, uh, you're too young to read it right now. It's more about like preparing for retirement, but there were some, you know, good takeaways because in, in all phases of life, I think you can have kind of an arc to your goals in your, you know, career, whether that's, um, a career in a typical sense, or just the things that you're contributing and aspiring to. Um, and so, yeah, for me, that, that's a good, you know, guiding principle. And then just realizing, too, over time, I kind of always knew I would want to be married and have kids, but I, I didn't know exactly how, you know, this would all work out. But, um, you know, spending quality time with my family is also extremely important to me. Um, I like spending non-quality time with them is sort of less important. So, when I'm traveling for work or whatnot, you know, I am, I'm okay with that not being there for every single second. Uh, but then when I am there, really making it, um, you know, high value, quality time, I think is for me, you know, what's really important. And that's different for other people. Some people would prefer to have a lot more time there and, you know, maybe a little less time on on work, and I get it. You just sort of have to reflect for yourself what the right mix is.
Yeah. And hearing you talk about this, I can see how clear your priorities are to you. And I think it's, it's inspiring me to ask those questions of myself to get clear on my own priorities and how they stack up.
Yeah. I think they become clearer over time. I know, um, you know, early on in my career, they weren't as clear. Uh, certainly, I was just working really, really hard and didn't exactly know why, >> or what I was doing, or how this would all work out. Um, and it would be overwhelming if I, uh, if I thought about it too much, but, >> yeah, so don't be too hard on yourself.
I love the Socrates. We're just three liberal arts girlies at heart, like who went to liberal arts schools and then worked in more technical fields. Well, I think it's, it's interesting because, you know, the, the tides changed so much.
Um, I know just not that many years ago, you know, you had to be only a computer science major.
And now, like, it's great if you're an amazing, uh, computer engineer and you understand how to use AI, and like that was a great path for you to go down if that's your passion, but if you were just sort of pushed into that because you thought it was the cool or trendy, like, thing to be doing, you know, your job could be automated away with AI. And so I don't know, I think the liberal arts are a really good place to start because it teaches you how to think and analyze, and then you can always acquire the technical skills.
Mhm.
Later.
That's what I've been saying.
A book for the liberal arts.
Yeah.
We're talking our book all al all together, but I also could not have made it as a computer science engineer. So.
So, Holly, on our podcast, our tagline is, we say we talk about money, power, and love. And for much of your career, you worked, um, in finance, and also in very male-dominated environments, similar to us working in finance and tech. And so in those spaces, I'd love to hear a little bit more about power moves, if you have any, like, what is your superpower to surviving and thriving in those spaces? Um, and how can I be more like you?
That's sweet. I'll, I'll just say a couple things that come to mind and would love to hear your thoughts on this, too. I think to a certain extent, um, tech, where I, I don't have any experience, is almost more male-dominated than finance now. So, anyway, would love to hear your reflections as well. Um, I think a couple, couple of things have have helped. Listening well, >> and part of that, asking good questions, >> um, can be super helpful. And, you know, finding where your own background, whether it's your gender, or just your different perspective, or, you know, whatever it may be, can actually be an advantage. To not be like everyone else. Um, I'm not underplaying the significant challenges that underrepresented groups may and do face, because they're they're real, and they're there. Uh, but there can be opportunities where you actually do have an advantage. So, I just, maybe a couple of examples. This probably relates more towards, um, last company I worked at, rather than my, my current firm, which I think is, you know, really great and inclusive. We have about, um, our executive committee is at least half female. Um, and we're making strides, you know, really across the board, and, um, having a diverse workforce, which I think is important because that's just, we're in a people business, and we're working with the world, and we want to just, you know, make sure that people are able to connect, um, you know, appropriately, but still keeping a meritocracy at the heart of of all we do. Um, but, you know, going back to to power moves, you know, I think especially just thinking about in a, um, in industries, and again, more this is more earlier in my career, when it really was more skewed in this direction, >> but I was in a sales role, for example, where I was covering hedge fund managers, >> which are tend to be male. There's few female, uh, hedge fund managers out there, but tend to be male. Um, I found by asking them good questions and listening, and maybe it was an advantage being female, >> um, that they could be felt they didn't need to like have a macho ego competition with me, and we could just have a different type of dialogue. >> Um, I was able to form really strong relationships, hear what they really were trying to accomplish, and then help them accomplish that really effectively. >> Um, so, yeah, listening and asking good questions, I think, is a, a good place to start. You can accumulate a lot of information, >> that you then figure out when to use, and then at some point, you know, you have a power move, but it's based on a lot of information you've collected over time, and you're like, "Now's the moment. Okay, I'm going to do this."
We often say information is power on this podcast.
We say that all the time.
Yeah. And the only way you can get information is if you're actively listening, >> and then you basically you ask, ask the right questions, and then someone is willing to like share that information with you. So, there's like so much that goes into that.
Yeah. And I think one thing I've, um, learned a lot from my, my boss, our current CEO, is just the power of asking good questions.
And it sometimes you can ask them even if you think you know the whole answer, and you just totally disagree with whatever the other person is saying, >> but it's not going to be super helpful just to say, "I completely disagree with you." You know, but you could instead ask that person a question, and maybe you don't, maybe you're, you're too confident in your own view, you haven't thought of something. So, you know, just asking someone, "Well, did you think about this?" or "How did you think about that?" >> um, you can, a, learn, but, you know, b, maybe make your point, um, in a more collaborative way that, you know, will keep you aligned with your, your colleague, or your client, or, you know, whoever you're engaging with.
I see this is a power move. Like, instead of outright saying to someone, "Well, I don't agree with that," or "I think you're wrong in this way," it's like framing it to be like, "Oh, well, did you think about this aspect of your argument?"
Exactly. Exactly. And either you're going to learn something that you hadn't considered.
Yeah.
Or you'll make them analyze it.
Or they'll figure out they're wrong.
Or they'll figure out wrong, and then, but they'll be kind of happier to work with you maybe because you didn't sort of call them out.
Um, >> right. And especially like when you do this, you know, how you do it, uh, particularly in a big group, it can be powerful to ask questions rather than just calling someone out, you know, aggressively.
Um, that can lead to a better team environment, one where people feel more encouraged to share their ideas.
Yeah.
Uh, and I think that's one thing I'm really happy is getting more attention these days is just, you know, the power of of an inclusive culture to encourage people to share their ideas. It's not like some nice fuzzy warm thing that we want to have. Yeah, it is that, but it's also that's where you get your best ideas, and you don't know where the best ideas are going to come from. It's often not from the really senior person who has 30 years of experience and has been doing something kind of in one way. It might be from the person who just joined the firm two months ago, from a different firm, maybe a competitor, >> who knows something that no one else knows. And so you need them to feel comfortable to share that. And I think that's where, uh, you know, asking these questions and creating that, that, um, positive environment can be really helpful. And I would just encourage for all the, um, listeners out there, too, who are at different points in their career, like, when you see these gaps, even if it's a senior person that is missing something, like that's can be your opportunity to really step into that gap. If you do it in a thoughtful, kind of kind way, you can be really effective at it. Even if it's to someone much more senior than you, like in your role, I think that can be very, very effective.
And this is why women are better investors statistically. Seriously, this is why, because we invite input from different people, because that's like, this is your tried-and-true approach over like 20 plus years, is that that's why people are willing to share with you like their ideas and like, like kind of like reveal their genius to you, whereas normally they might.
be too intimidated to.
Yeah, I I thanks for for mentioning that. I I've spent a lot of time on that with our investment team and now kind of thinking more. Our our firm thankfully is is you know really focused on collaboration at our core. I think having one line of business enables that. We're all trying to do the same thing which is help our clients and so you know however we can work together to to accomplish that. Um, you know we really want to encourage really everyone to participate in that process.
It's you know it's easier said than done. Yeah. Right. Um, and kind of one super mean negative thing that you say in a group meeting can set you back many months, right? Because then somebody who heard that is like, "Oh gosh, I'm not going to risk that." So, it's something you have to try every day. Um it's wonderful just being at this conference and hearing what other CEOs uh you know are saying you know on this but um um you know really having a a open environment where you're able to bring up questions that maybe disrupt your business >> is really key that the world world is evolving so quickly right now. You know we have to be asking these hard questions.
>> Yeah. I love it.
>> Yeah.
>> Well, should we move on to our special segment?
>> Yeah. Okay, we have a special segment. We have something fun.
>> So, my friend um created this company called Fortune Questions where it's basically these kind of >> like icebreaker questions that come in fortune cookie format. So, we have two options. One is mild questions, one is wild.
>> Wild questions.
>> I like that. Can we do one of each?
>> Yes, of course.
>> Where should we start? Maybe mild.
>> We can start with mild. Warm up with mild and then we'll go to wild.
>> Do I get to eat the cookie?
>> Yes, they're actually fresh made.
>> Oh my god.
>> So, they're really good.
>> Do you trust your first or third instinct?
>> I'm going to make you two answer this, too.
>> What?
>> You're not prepared. That's not part of it.
>> I think I I'd say first >> in most cases first. Um, but when I can afford to acknowledge my first and then give myself time before acting upon it, better >> might come up with a new idea.
>> Yeah. How would you respond?
>> For me, I would say I've been moving to now trust my first instinct because I'm used to being very analytical and like ruminating on things. And I think over time I've realized like no, my first instinct was right. I just wasn't I wasn't trusting it. So,
>> Got it. I'm moving to where you are.
>> Love it. Good.
>> I trust my first instinct. I think I'm learning to also better like listen to it. Like, I always feel it, but I'm like, but then I always like push it down cuz I'm like, yeah, I like tend to rationalize things, but yeah, I'm also learning to trust my first instinct more, but I always feel it. You know what I mean? It's just like a gut like, oh, something's not right or something's off. Um, I guess I have really strong instincts. I just need to I just need to listen to it more.
>> Yeah. Yeah. No, that's right. What some um scientific research I've read, you know, on it. It's not like it your first instinct is not usually not um and it just an emotional reaction like it's actually based on all of this subconscious information that you're processing >> that you're taking in that you may not even know it >> and then it's it's you know feeding that together. Now, of course, it's not 100% right. So, where you can afford to check it, that's probably good, but I think more often than not, it can be right.
>> Yeah. Okay.
>> Do some wild. OH MY GOODNESS.
>> I'M GONNA MAKE YOU ANSWER THIS FIRST. I think what is it?
>> What is the most outrageous thing you've done in the name of love?
>> Oh my god.
>> Oh boy.
>> I'll let you think about it because I I one thing I said earlier I think um >> you have is probably Yeah, I think so. I mean I think moving to Brazil, >> not speaking Portuguese very well.
>> Yeah.
>> Like moving to a different job, same company but different job, not understanding the health care system, not you know um but loving my husband and I think loving life and adventure. Um we're like let's let's do it. So
>> um that was it. And then more recently, um maybe adopting our little puppy from um a great organization called Sochi Dogs that rescues dogs, you know, in Eastern Europe, including Ukraine, like on the front lines of the war. You just imagine these people who are facing themselves such adversity and are finding the time and energy and love to like go out and save stray dogs. It's just it's really incredible. Super well-run. And um yeah, I picked them up in Jersey City. They figured out how to get him here and he's just a little little sweet ball of positive energy that I get to play with every day. So
>> Amazing. I love that.
>> So what was the question?
>> The most outrageous thing you've done in the name of love.
>> Outrageous sounds bad. Like the crazy
>> Outrageous can be good. Outrageous can be good. Do you have an answer?
>> I have one, but it's a little bit cheesy. It's like sort of turning it on its head. Okay. I think the most outrageous thing I've done is actually end my engagement because for self-love and that took a really really long time to get there because we were there's a whole backstory but we were together for eight years. So like that was I think that's the most
>> Good for you. Good for you.
>> Congratulations.
>> Thank you.
>> I think the most outrageous thing that I've done was not thinking straight during COVID. I don't know. Everyone was so uh like there's so much going on in the world and I think I jumped really fast into a relationship because you know like we had social distancing and then like work was the world was melting down and I was just like all right let's just jump into
>> you know
>> full-on relationship
>> full-on relationship and it was far too fast far too soon but that was the old me that you many years ago in my 30s I turned 30 like a month ago >> so I'm like so wise I love it.
>> Awesome.
>> Well, thank you so much.
>> Thank you so much. I had such a blast with you, too.