Naming expert shares process for creating billion-dollar brands: Vercel, Azure, Windsurf, Sonos

您的品牌名称。没有什么比这个名字更常用或更持久的了。设计会改变，信息会改变，产品会改变，但这个名字就在那里。有没有一个名字是您想出来的，您不得不为它付出巨大的努力，而客户却非常讨厌它？当我们提出 Sonos 时，它被拒绝了，因为它不够娱乐化。我们为此争论过，因为我说：“这是旁观者清，但我并不认为你们是一家娱乐公司。” 人们确实喜欢舒适。我们在这里工作的一部分就是帮助人们获得变得更大胆、更不舒服的信心。我发现了一句您说过的话。如果您的团队对这个名字感到满意，那么很可能您还没有找到那个名字。我们寻求两极分化。我们寻求团队在争论这些事情时的紧张感。两极分化是这个词力量的标志。大多数客户在命名项目时，都坚信他们会“一见钟情”。而事实是，这种情况几乎从未发生过。听这段话的大多数人都是创始人。产品团队里有很多产品经理。假设他们有几周的时间来想出一个名字。他们应该怎么做？今天我的嘉宾是 David Classic。David 是 Lexicon branding 的创始人，该公司开创了品牌命名领域，并创造了一些您可能听说过的名字，包括 PowerBook、Pentium、Blackberry、Swiffer、Impossible Burger。还有 Versel、Windurf、Cap Cut 和 Azure。在我们的对话中，David 详细介绍了他和他的团队寻找成功名字的非常具体的过程，包括一个简单的练习，您可以和您的团队一起在几周内找到合适的名字。我们还讨论了为什么一个好名字值得您花时间去打磨，为什么您在看到一个好名字时不会立即知道它，以及为什么您首先需要对这个名字感到不舒服。此外，为什么大型团队的头脑风暴永远不会产生伟大的名字，以及 Pentium、Sonos、Versel 和 Windsurf 等名字背后的故事。还有关于字母表中每个字母的感受和能量的如此有趣的见解，等等。本集节目适合任何正在为他们的产品或公司寻找名字的人，也适合任何对某些标志性名字的诞生故事感兴趣的人。如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 上订阅并关注它。如果您成为我的付费通讯订阅者，您将免费获得一年份的各种精美产品，包括 Bolt、Linear、Superhum、Notion、Perplexity、Granola 等。请访问 lennisnewsletter.com 查看，然后点击 bundle。好了，现在请听 David Classic 的节目。本集节目由 WorkOS 提供。如果您正在构建一个 SaaS 应用程序，您的客户最终会开始要求企业级功能，例如 SAML 身份验证和 SCIM 预配。这时 WorkOS 就派上用场了，它可以快速无痛地为您的应用程序添加企业级功能。它们 API 易于理解，因此您可以快速发布并回到构建其他功能。如今，已有数百家公司由 WorkOS 提供支持，包括您可能认识的 Versell、Web Flow 和 Loom。WorkOS 最近还收购了 Warrant，一家精细化授权服务公司。Warrant 的产品基于一项开创性的授权系统，名为 Zanzibar，最初是为 Google 设计的，用于支持 Google Docs 和 YouTube。这使得在巨大规模下能够进行快速授权检查，同时保持灵活的模型，即使是最复杂的用例也能适应。如果您目前正在寻找构建基于角色的访问控制或其他企业级功能，如单点登录、SCIM 或用户管理，您应该考虑 WorkOS。它是 Okta 的一个直接替代品，并且支持高达一百万月活跃用户免费。请访问 workos.com 了解更多。即 works.com。去年，全球 GDP 的 1.3% 通过 Stripe 流动。这超过了 1.4 万亿美元。驱动这一巨大数字的是数百万企业通过 Stripe 实现了更快的增长。对于 Forbes、Atlassian、OpenAI 和 Toyota 等行业领导者来说，Stripe 不仅仅是金融软件。它是一个强大的合作伙伴，简化了他们资金的流动方式，使其像互联网本身一样无缝且无国界。例如，在迁移到 Stripe 后，Herz 的在线支付授权率提高了 4%。想象一下，就像 Forbes 在使用 Stripe 进行订阅管理后的 6 个月内，收入提高了 23% 一样。Stripe 在过去十年中一直在利用人工智能来改进其产品，以促进所有企业的收入增长，从更智能的结账到欺诈预防等等。加入超过一半的财富 100 强公司行列，它们信任 Stripe 来推动变革。请访问 stripe.com 了解更多。David，非常感谢您来到这里，欢迎来到播客。谢谢，我很高兴今天能来。我很期待这次谈话。我也是。这些实际上是我最喜欢的谈话类型，因为这个话题完全超出了我的专业范围，我知道我将学到很多东西。而且，这是每个创始人或产品构建者在某个时候都必须考虑的事情，而他们却不知道该怎么做，然后他们的名字就成了他们身份的核心。这是他们说得比任何其他词都多的词，我觉得我从未听过关于如何做好这件事的建议。所以，我真的很期待这次谈话。我将直接进入一个问题，这个问题是：您和您的团队想出了一个名字，您不得不为它付出巨大的努力，而客户却非常讨厌它，但最终您赢了，现在它成了一个显而易见的好名字，每个人都喜欢。我喜欢讲的故事是关于 Sonos 的。嗯，一个很棒的客户团队。我与所有创始人合作过，但当时他们卡在了一个品牌名称上，将他们定位在娱乐行业。所以，当我们提出 Sonos 时，它有很多优点，嗯，嗯，它被拒绝了，因为它不够有情感。它不够娱乐化。你知道，我们为此争论过，因为我说，我不知道，这是旁观者清，但我并不认为你们是一家娱乐公司。你们生产扬声器，通过这些东西让娱乐流动。而 Sonos 是关于声音的，但它有一个特殊的品质。它被称为回文，对吧？所以，它意味着你可以翻转它，它意思不变。在 Sonos 的情况下，你也可以把它倒过来，它基本上是一样的，对吧？所以，这让他们开始思考这个问题，但他们仍然很挣扎。我离开了那个在圣巴巴拉的会议，然后回来了，他们还在挣扎。我坐上了飞机，甚至没有为这个收费，又回到了圣巴巴拉，再次与他们会面，说：“我真的相信这个名字，我认为它对你们来说是正确的。” 在某个时候，一位创始人，你知道，Bob McFarland，他是一位非常出色的客户，我能看到他在思考，他说：“你知道，我们正在为自己命名，而我们真正应该做的是为市场和客户命名。” 而且，我认为 Sonos 现在是正确的名字。我对此感觉很好。他后来给我写了一张纸条，关于我如何帮助做到这一点，我们有时会在客户演示中使用它，因为它是一张很棒的纸条。但是， Sonos 是我非常庆幸我拥有了这种内在的动力，让我能够去那里为它争取。顺便说一句，我并不经常这样做，但我对 Sonos 的感觉非常强烈。我喜欢 Sonos。我喜欢这个名字。我有很多 Sonos 产品。这种情况发生得有多频繁，客户就是不行，这是不是名字。而我们有更大的愿景，我们有完全不同的想法。然后您说服了他们？嗯，这种情况经常发生。嗯，而且有点双向，对吧？我们，你知道，大多数客户，我可以理解，对吧？他们会参加一个命名项目，完全相信他们会“一见钟情”。而事实是，这种情况几乎从未发生过。我现在已经完成了，我想今年我们将完成 4000 个项目。这很有趣，你知道，我们会以一种非常礼貌的方式告诉人们，你不会“一见钟情”。但我知道他们不相信我。嗯，即使我，你也能看到他们在想，你知道吗，他说的没错。我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我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I'm going to translate the entire text from English to Chinese.

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your brand name. Nothing's going to be used more often or for longer than that name. Design will change, message will change, products will change, but that name is there. What's a name that you came up with that you had to fight super hard for that the client just hated? When we presented Sonos, it was rejected because it's not entertainment-like. We argued about that because I said, "This is outside looking in, but I don't see you as an entertainment company." Humans do like to be comfortable. Part of our job here is to help people to give the confidence going bigger and being uncomfortable. There's a quote that I found of yours. If your team is comfortable with the name, chances are you don't have the name yet. We look for polarization. We look for tension in a team arguing about these things. Polarization is a sign of strength in the word. Most clients, they come to a naming project absolutely believing with full confidence that they're going to know it when they see it. And the truth is it almost never happens. Most people listening to this are founders. A lot of PMs on product teams. Let's say they have a couple weeks got to come up with a name. What should they do? Today my guest is David Classic. David is the founder of Lexicon branding which pioneered the field of brand naming and invented a few names that you may have heard of including PowerBook, Pentium, Blackberry, Swiffer, the Impossible Burger. Also Versel and Windurf and Cap Cut and Azure. In our conversation, David opens up about the very specific process that he and his team go through to find winning names, including a simple exercise that you can do with you and your team to help you find the right name in just a few weeks. We also talk about why a great name is worth spending your time on, why you won't know a great name when you see it, and why you need to feel uncomfortable about the name first. Also, why big team brainstorms don't ever lead to great names, the stories behind names like Pentium and Sonos and Versel and Windsurf. also such interesting insights about the feeling and energy of every letter of the alphabet and so much more. This episode is designed for anyone trying to figure out a name for their product or company and also just for anyone that's interested in hearing the stories of how some of the most iconic names came to be. If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube. And if you become a paid subscriber of my newsletter, you get a year free of a bunch of amazing products, including Bolt, Linear, Superhum, Notion, Perplexity, Granola, and more. Check it out at lennisnewsletter.com and click bundle. With that, I bring you David Classic. This episode is brought to you by WorkOS. If you're building a SAS app, at some point your customers will start asking for enterprise features like SML authentication and skim provisioning. That's where work OS comes in, making it fast and painless to add enterprise features to your app. Their APIs are easy to understand so that you can ship quickly and get back to building other features. Today, hundreds of companies are already powered by work OS, including ones you probably know like Versell, Web Flow, and Loom. Work OS also recently acquired Warrant, the fine grain authorization service. Warren's product is based on a groundbreaking authorization system called Zanzibar, which was originally designed for Google to power Google Docs and YouTube. This enables fast authorization checks at enormous scale while maintaining a flexible model that can be adapted to even the most complex use cases. If you're currently looking to build role-based access control or other enterprise features like single signon, skim, or user management, you should consider work OS. It's a drop-in replacement for Ozero and supports up to 1 million monthly active users for free. Check it out at workos.com to learn more. That's works.com. Last year, 1.3% of the global GDP flowed through Stripe. That's over 1.4 trillion. And driving that huge number are the millions of businesses growing more rapidly with Stripe. For industry leaders like Forbes, Atlassian, OpenAI, and Toyota, Stripe isn't just financial software. It's a powerful partner that simplifies how they move money, making it as seamless and borderless as the internet itself. For example, Herz boosted its online payment authorization rates by 4% after migrating to Stripe. And imagine seeing a 23% lift in revenue like Forbes did just 6 months after switching to Stripe for subscription management. Stripe has been leveraging AI for the last decade to make its product better at growing revenue for all businesses from smarter checkouts to fraud prevention and beyond. Join the ranks of over half of the Fortune 100 companies that trust Stripe to drive change. Learn more at stripe.com. David, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast. Well, thank you. I I'm excited about today. Um, and looking forward to the conversation. Me, too. These are actually my favorite kinds of conversations because this topic is so outside of my wheelhouse and I know I'm just going to learn a ton. Also, this is just something that every founder and product builder has to think about at some point and they have no idea what they're doing and then their name becomes so core to their identity. It's thy the word they say more than any other word and I feel like I've never heard uh advice on how to do this well. So, uh I'm really excited for this conversation. I'm going to just dive into a question and the question is just what's a name that you came up with and your team came up with that you had to fight super hard for that the client just hated and you ended up winning and now is just such an obviously awesome name that everyone loves. The story I like to tell is a story of Sonos. uh one a great client team. I worked with all the founders, but at at the time they were stuck on being in a brand name that put them in the entertainment business. And so when we presented Sonos, which has many qualities to it, uh um they it was rejected because it it doesn't have enough sort of emotion to it. It's not entertainment-like. And you know, we argued about that because I said, I don't, this is outside looking in, but I don't see you as an entertainment company. You you makes speakers that allow for the flow of entertainment through these uh things. And Sonos is about sound, but it had a particular quality. It's it's called a palendrome, right? So- which really means that you can flip it and and it means the same thing. In the case of Sonos, you could all also turn it upside down and it was essentially the same, right? And so I that got them thinking about this, but they were still has so I left that meeting there in Santa Barbara and I came back and they were still struggling with it. And I went I got on a plane, didn't even build them for this, went back down to Santa Barbara and met with them again and said,"I really believe in this name and I think it's the right for you." And at a certain point, one of the founders, you know, Bob McFarland, who who's just a wonderful client, I could see him thinking and he said, you know, we're trying to name this for ourselves and what we really should be doing is naming it for the marketplace and the customers. And you know, I think Sonos now is the right name. And that and I felt really good about that. and he later wrote me a note about uh about how I helped to do that and we and we use it sometimes in credentials presentations because it's such a nice note. But but Sonos is something I'm so I'm so glad that I had this internal energy to I got to go down there and make a bid for this. I don't I don't do that often by the way, but I felt very strongly about Sonos. I love Sonos. I love the name. I have many Sonos products. How often does this happen where the client is just no this is not the name. and we have this bigger vision, we have a whole other idea of it. And then you convince them. Well, it happens all the time. Um, and and it's a little bit birectional, right? We we you know, there's most clients and I can understand this, right? They they come to a a naming project, absolutely believing with full confidence that they're going to know it when they see it. And the truth is, it almost never happens. I have now uh I think this year we'll hit 4,000 projects that we've completed. And it's interesting, you know, we'll tell people in a very polite way, you're not going to know when you see it. But but I know they don't believe me. Um and and even when I I you could see them thinking that you know what, he was right. I'm I I I really have to think about this. I have to proc process it. And part of that, part of why clients don't like the bolder names, the more imaginative names that we present is they are looking for comfort. And that's the opposite that what you want to do. And part of our our our job here is to help people to give the confidence that going bolder and bigger is and and being uncomfortable. There's a I use the expression there is no power in comfort. uh not in the marketplace. Wow, there's so much here already. Okay, so this idea of you're not gonna know it when you see it is something that people come in with thinking like once I see it, it'll be obvious just why why is that never almost never the case? Is it because the name has to be something that is uncomfortable? There's a lot of psychology uh to this which ironically I I never even took a psychology class in in college or or graduate school. But the first element is humans do like to be comfortable and one of the mechanisms of comfort is if something's been successful before then I feel like I can approve it or select it. Uh this is why um you know movies like uh Harry Potter or even uh novels like Jack London's Call of the Wild get rejected so many times. I think Harry Potter was rejected 16 or 18 times and Jack London's a book even more than that. I mean, think about it. He's he's pitching a book and you say, "What are you talking about here? You're saying a dog becomes a wolf? I I've never heard of anything like that." So, so we really do have to help people think about it's not about the past. You're actually creating the future. And we really talk to people and emphasize the idea this this isn't a name you're creating. this we're creating an experience for you. We're going to work together and we really our conversations always start with talk to us about behave now and how you want to behave in the future as opposed to tell me about your positioning, tell me about your values, tell me about your mission. That that's really kind of old thinking. It's very traditional and that did work, you know, 25 or 30 years ago, but this is a far more complex uh in interconnected world, a digital world now that that that stuff just doesn't create it doesn't create names like Sonos or, you know, some of our other credentials that we we probably will talk about today. Yeah, we're going to talk about just the process you guys go through. So stay tuned for that. But before we get to that is there's another story you can share that kind of shows this idea of being bold. I I'll talk about Microsoft's Azure. Um so when Microsoft came to us they were pretty much stuck uh and and Marcus does and in many ways it to their credit a lot of things don't need to be named. They don't need trademarks. They don't need brand names. They need descriptors. And so they came to us to develop a name that started or ended with cloud made sense to them because it was a cloud service. And our reaction was if you do that uh you're going to be in an ocean of other cloud this cloud that and you have an opportunity as Microsoft here to to really emerge as a leader in this. And so, you know, there was a discussion about, okay, we'll we'll take a look at those, but we'd like to see some cloud some cloud names, okay? Which is easy to do, by the way. Okay. And so, we did that and we along the way we we uh we came up with this word Azure, which is, you know, another word for blue. And so, there was a link to clouds, blue sky, clouds, things like that. and but we really presented it based on its linguistic qualities. It's it's a noisy word that Z in there starts with an A, you know, and it ends in a nice smooth flow. So, we we really strive to do create names that are balanced. And in a very busy competitive world, having some a strong signal which is generated by noise is a good thing. Uh the reaction wasn't wasn't good. Uh you know, one of the clients said, "That's just a dumb idea." And I, you know, we this remarks like that at this point after these four decades, it sort of rolls off my my back like a water off a duck is what my grandmother would say. But but um I I I think along the way um as we talked about it, they began to warm up to this. So now of course it's I don't know hundred billion dollar brand or or something like that. But that's an example of I haven't seen that before. I'm very comfortable with cloud. Cloud is what it is. That's that's the you know we're describing it but that's a statement and I think that well I don't think I know that's what I said in one of the presentations is you don't want to make a statement here. You want to you want to start a story right? and and an Azure is going to behave differently in the marketplace than you know cloud pro- which is I think one of the names that we presented to them on the other side at their request. I'm glad they went with Azure. Let me actually ask this question. I know you're biased but just how important is a great name? Like if you had a better name than a product that was better than you, does that make a big difference? Just anything you can share there to help people see this is the power of a great name. Let's look just at the at the reality of this. Your brand name, whether it's a product name or a company name, nothing's going to be used more often or for longer than that name. Design will change, message will change, products will change, right? But that name is there. So I like to talk about this idea of cumulative advantage, right? over time as people buy more and more of the product they see it more often they that their bond between you and that brand uh or them and the brand I should say becomes stronger and stronger. So you want that name to to to stick in their mind to be distinctive be because distinctiveness is what creates that cumulative uh advantage. The second thing is this notion of what I call asymmetric advantage. It makes perfect sense and most people most clients agree with this when we when we say this is that even before you launch this brand. Why not start with an advantage in the marketplace and you won't get an advantage if you're descriptive? If you are cloud pro and there's 10 other cloud services you're not going to stand out in the marketplace. you won't have the ability to create that necessarily that cumulative advantage in the marketplace. So, so those are those are my two reasons why names are I think you know the done right and we we do we do talk about our mission is not creating good names. A lot of people can do that. Our mission is to create the right name for for for clients and because the right name does deliver asymmetric advantage and cumulative advantage for you and that for us has almost unlimited value. This is a great answer. Essentially what you're saying is it's not going to like necessarily make or break you but it gives you an advantage. A great name gives you an advantage especially if you're just getting started. The like you need every advantage you can get. Exactly. And this is maybe a little bit off off a tangent, but one of the best books on marketing I've ever read, which is not a book on marketing. It's and you may have read it along the way um in in college if you studied any Greek or uh uh you know, classics. It's called the Millian Dialogues. And it's a dialogue. It's will take anybody listening to this maybe 25 minutes to read it between the Athenians and the government of Milos. And the Athenians had decided that they needed that island and they went and approached them very nice way but that we want to take over the island. Nothing will change. You'll be taxed a little bit but we'll protect you. And the Athenians had thought every aspect about how to take that island before. So they by the time they got there, they had created asymmetric advantage in terms of ships and men and all this other stuff. It's just there by by the way in the book there's no mention of marketing or brand strategy or any of these things, but if you read it, you begin to see that it's marketing really is about asymmetric advantage. And so why not start from the very beginning with with an advantage? That's the value of an aid. Let's dive into the actual process you guys go through. And I want to read uh a quote that GMA Roush uh shared when I asked him about what it was like working with you. He's the CEO and co-founder of Verscell, which you guys worked with. I definitely want to hear that story, by the way. So he said, "Before David, the ability to name something was like charisma. You either have it or you don't. It was so surreal to watch his team distill it down to a science." So, let me just ask you, what does that science look like? What are the steps to coming up with an amazing name for your product or company that you guys go through? That's very nice of Germo. He he is uh a very impressive uh uh you know, innovator in in this category and we greatly enjoyed working with him. Well, the our process is really I break it down in three steps. Um first, we have to identify then we invent and then we implement. But so it's it's just three things. It's not it's not rocket science, but it does it's a combination of creativity and discipline, right? And obviously talented people and experience in these things. So let's just kind of go through those things in in the first section of identify. It's really trying to find out from the client. Let's talk about behavior, right? So how do you how are you behaving now and how do you want to behave in the future, right? That behavior is birectional. In other words, the marketplace behaves towards a versel. You know, that's the name we created for GMO and they behave towards the marketplace and and and that's an important point because everything you know buildings are birectional even you know the look at a building you behave differently towards a temple than you or a church versus you know a holiday in terms of how that architecture states. So we focus on that behavior is closely aligned for us with experience. How do you want this brand to the experience of this brand? Now when we listen to those things, we begin to think about, you know, rhythm of the of the name. Um so something like Dani has a lot of rhythm to it, right? It's kind of calming, right? Uh and and so we'll begin to extract things from that discussion on experience. We will then also as part of this first phase look at the competition. We call that developing a landscape and we're looking for what are the words you know the what are the brand names first and then what language are they using in this space. So so because we want to be we have to be distinctive. If a brand name isn't distinctive you lose right then you're imitating and that's a form of suicide. I think you know that's a famous quote from some I think the president of PNG you know 50 years ago or something like that. So so that's that first phase which allows us to create what we call a creative framework and we don't even use the word objectives here because that gets too logical. We we actually framework for us is a metaphor for a window for us and our teams and our linguist to travel through to to kind of open things up so that we're not coming back with a narrow list of names. We're coming back with names that have depth and breadth and have different experiences and personalities to them. And clients will sign off on that and then we get going uh this. So now we're moved to the invent stage. And in the invent stage, we do really two things. You can look at this as, you know, two layers of our process. And I I think the second layer is probably what makes us quite unique in the marketplace. And it it's the result of millions of dollars of of of R&D on our part. So the first thing is no surprise to anyone, we we work with, you know, creative individuals and we don't use this this will be contrarian. We don't use large brainstorming sessions. I did when I first started the company. I used freelancers. I used brains large brainstorming groups. And along the way through some analysis, we really discovered that that was not really working for us that actually the names were coming from employees and from small groups. And so we've moved our process to at least two or three small teams of two people. And each of those teams, so let's say we, you know, on on significant projects, we always use three teams. Uh, and each team gets a different briefing. One team knows everything about the project, but the other teams don't. We'll replace if we're working for Microsoft, the second team thinks they're working for Apple. I mean, they know it's disguise. We're not keeping this from anyone. And then the third team, we take it out of computers. And, you know, they might be naming a bicycle or a car or something like that. What we're trying to do is uh open up the coffers of creativity uh for for this. And so when people are working on what they know is not the real assignment, they are now free to make all kinds of mistakes. And so most of our names have come out of the second or third team because they're Yeah. Yeah, I think the process at some point I I will uh hopefully write a either a good article on this or maybe even a book, but this process would work for I think a lot of things. I I know I know it would. All right. Now, what's that second layer that I talked about? Well, we have made significant investments in this area of linguistics and cognitive science. Um and it's in two ways. one building proprietary knowledge. So we know through through research that we funded an extensive amount about an area in language called or linguistics called sound symbolism. So what are the sounds of the 26 letters of the alphabet and what do they do? How do they evoke things? Well, it turns out that that that each of those letters sends out a signal that that creates a certain sort of vibration, if you will, or or experience. Now, there's been research on that over the years, but there were some gaps and we decided to to fill this. And we, you know, over the years we've had a very good relationship with Stanford University with their department of linguistics with, you know, we we've hired PE linguists from MIT, from Berkeley. We have a linguistic internship here. I actually just ran this number uh preparing for for this discussion. We have employed over four decades now 253 linguists, most of them PhDs, some of them contracts, some of them actual employees. Well, that's a lot of intellectual knowledge. So, we we really have what I call a linguistic engine here. And then we now have an operating network of um I I just checked on this figure yesterday. Uh we have 108 linguists in 76 countries that help us. Some of them do creative work. Others uh w will do just the analysis of of names uh for us. So now we have that creative framework. We have creative teams working on this. Now we're tapping into databases that have, you know, over 18,000 small word units technically called morphines. And so we also can tap in from a sound standpoint. I, you know, what are what are the sounds of reliability? What are the sounds of aliveness? Um, and and so with Sonos, by the way, we wanted, you know, things that are somewhat noisy, right? And so S is a noisy letter like like um a Z or or even a V. And so you begin to set priorities about what letters we're going to use. And that work from that we call it, you know, an engineering layer sort of floats up into the creative teams. And so it's a a mixture of things at a certain point in time. All right. Now, what happens to all that? At a certain point, usually three to four weeks into this, we might have two or three thousand ideas. I say ideas because they're not all solutions. They're not all workable. They may be just beginning ideas, concepts, and we sift through those. And now one of the major challenges that we face and certainly our clients face is the need to to clear a trademark for it to be not in conflict with a marketplace that is we're almost reaching a tipping point in terms of difficulty of clearing names here. Uh and so we have parallegals here and we have a trademark attorney and we'll analyze those names. uh that gets us to a small much smaller set and then we'll do our linguistic work with our linguists and we end up with a set of names to show our clients. We'll do this twice with our with most assignments. Sometimes we'll do just one time depending on timing and budget, but we really try to get two cycles here. Partly because humans love to compare, right? Where you don't if you're looking for a house, you don't just look at the first house, say, "Okay, let's sign us up." you you you look and you learn that we don't need a swimming pool, but we need do need a view. It's the same with names. And so we get feedback from our clients and sometimes that's a co-creative process where a client will come up with a word or a solution and we'll then run that through our our uh screening mechanisms for them. And that and that's really the process. And the the final phase is implementing. Let's actually pause at that because I have so much I want to talk about with this second step and but we'll get to that step three. Uh there's just this is just blowing my mind all the things you guys do here. This is incredible. There's so many things here that are so un unlike what I expected. First of all, the creative folks that are actually coming up with these names. What are what's kind of like the background of these people? Who are these who are these people? Yeah. So the fundamental quality is they're going to be curious and they're going to be hardworking. Thi this is and hopefully uh and this is hard to screen for but you know uh lower egos. This is unlike the advertising business which I came from, right? six years at in in a large agency where a a creative person or a copywriter can think about something and come in with three or four alternatives, right, in terms of a headline or body copy and that might be refined a little bit and and maybe sent back to the drawing boards alto together, but it it's a relatively simple process, right? Uh and no no disrespect uh intended there. here. I can't just uh sit down and say, "Okay, well, you know, we're naming a new car here, and so I'm going to I'm going to generate a hundred names, and and you generate 100 names, and something will fall out that that just that that won't those names will not there's not enough in in that list to clear through our screens of legal screens, our linguistic screens. And remember, we start with a creative framework and and and uh criteria that the names need need to meet. So, we're looking for people who can churn out a lot of work and when that's rejected, they just keep going. So, we look for tenacious people. Right now, we have, and we'll probably get to this later, but we have software here that helps people uh uh generate names. not really maybe 5 years down the road it'll actually spit out solutions but now it's helping us to generate ideas and directions and what I you know you know sound symbolism uh ideas um uh word unit prefixes suffixes things like that so so it's relatively easy for anyone that works here to develop a list of two or 30 hundred names over a three or 4 day period where do we find these people um more who are writers from uh you know newspaper reporters because they have to work fast their stories get rejected. people who might have written a novel. Um uh we have hired people from agencies o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o over over o over over the years they work a little less effectively than others who have a speech writer uh from you know I I wrote speeches in Washington DC uh those people have to work hard crank out a lot of material get rejected candidate says I don't like this start over those are more resilient people that's where they come it's not it's not easy to find these people it really it really isn't Uh, let me just throw out here. I'm gonna ask you after we go through this process what people that don't have the resources and time to do this what they should do to come up with a good name. I'm just going to let people know as they're listening because because I imagine many people are wondering, but let's not go there yet. Okay. How long does this process usually take? What's like the ideal length a company should expect when they want to come up with an amazing name? Uh, for us, the ideal length is is pretty is pretty short. It's eight weeks. uh for larger corporate projects where you have boards and a little more politicking to do and a little few more presentations. Um it's a it's a three-month uh turn and sometimes by the time they approve things and and clear it's a it's a four month u process. Okay, cool. So eight weeks mostly if you're a big company with a lot of red tape you have to work through then longer. Um okay this point you made about a three different teams with different in almost uh context is so interesting. So say let's use windsurf as an example which is an amazing name killing it uh that you guys helped come up with. So is the idea there? Okay, here's we're naming this uh IDE AI IDE. One of the teams is told no, you're building a bicycle, but here's all the here's all the same brief, but it's a bicycle. And then another team's built you're building a I don't know lap like I don't know something nontechnical essentially, right? Yes. Like a cup. Say more about that. That is amazing because and you're finding that most of the best names come from the groups that aren't build. Let's name an amazing AI ID. This is a good example. So, so in technology, um, there there are some things that that if someone hands you a new phone and you look at it's tangible and it's got a shape and color, things like that, easier to name, but but you know, the the the name of Windsurf before it was Windsurf was codium, right? And so, so it's all about a a type of code or a process for coding that's intangible. And even though we do an awful lot of technology work, it is still hard for us to kind of really get a hold of what that is, right? So, so our rule here is if there's something that is intangible like that, we have to make it tangible. And sometimes we do that not by not by giving a team and sometimes it's an individual the assignment to create ideas for the brand itself but to just dive into a particular context. And in this case with Windsurf it was this this is about sort of flow about giving people that are coding something uh much more of a flow process a you know a smoother process a more dynamic process. So in that case, one team was just given the task of we want to look at a list of all the things that can communicate either in a real word like flow or metaphorically or in a sport about that kind of dynamics, that kind of movement. And there was wind surf sitting on a list. I mean, it's sometimes this is just it really just that simple of course you have to have the right framework and you have to give the right sort of directions to someone and uh you uh wind surf for us particularly for me you it checks all the boxes it's it's a wonderful image it's an experience literally a physical experience it's a compound right two words put together we know from the research we've invested in that compounds like PowerBook or Facebook are multipliers of of of associations because there's wind and there's circles around that, you know, and and then there's surf images around that. So 1 plus one equals three, right? It's interesting that when we present compounds to clients, we we we often get the comment, well, yeah, it's a little bit long and it's a compound. I'd rather have a shorter single word. And then that that's why we actually did research on just how effective our compounds so we we could pass that information along. We passed that along to the the team at at that time. Kodium by the way could not have been a you know more intelligent, nicer, uh more respectful team that we've we've worked with. I'm I'm so glad for for their success. But we explained to them about the multiplier effect of compounds. We showed them imagery that they could use, right? I mean, it's simple to to execute on something like that. And so that that's how that that's how that came about. I I'll stop there and see if you need more information or not. Let me actually follow this thread real quick. It's going to be kind of a tangent. You guys have been working with AI companies more and more recently, which is so interesting. Is what's what's different about naming AI products from traditional products? Non AAI, I guess. First off, we are working mostly with engineers um and uh engineers who haven't, you know, delved into the world of kind of creativity and and necessarily marketing uh and and that that's their strength and and what we have to do is we have to sort of balance their strength with our strength. So there's a little bit of a challenge there, but I I think we we deal um pretty well with that. Secondly, this is the fastest moving progressing category I have ever experienced. And and I I have that perspective, right? I I went through the early days of of the internet, right? And and and um the worldwide web and that was moving pretty fast, but the internet compared to this looks like a a a daycare school or something like that. I mean, so, so we're we're challenged by just keeping up with with developments, right? Third thing, and this is the creative challenge here, is that engineers come to us wanting more sophisticated names, right? Where they you're likely to end up with another kodium or an Anderil or an anthropic. And we when when we saw this trend of that AI is going to take off and and it was an intuitive feeling on my part. I just you know I could have been wrong. I said let's let's find out what's going on here. So so both not only like who's developing the products but how do people think about AI? And we did a series of research. We, you know, I probably invested $20,000 or so. And we interviewed consumers in Europe, South Korea, just picked out one country in Asia, and in America, uh, and developers in those three, and they really have different views. Developers are all totally positive on it. Okay? They see the future. They see a big future. Not too concerned. Some are, but, most aren't. Consumers are skeptical. uh worried about it, worried about their jobs, see the hope in it, those types of things, but haven't got the handle. So, Kodium is an example where we said, "We think what you're doing needs to be much more tangible and something that people can grab on to and much more natural as opposed to a podium." And they listen to us as simple as that. And and and in this case, we were right. And by the way, there's also, I have to say, there's some luck to this. Windsurf happened to be available and uh they they saw it uh right away. Not not not exactly right away, but it took about a week going back and forth uh to to to to select it. So, let me stop there and see if that's answers your question. Absolutely. And it feels like most AI companies end up having a different name for their product than their company. I've noticed this funny trend. Cursor was any sphere. Bold was stack stack blitz. Windsurf was kodium. Basically everyone when does it make sense to change your name? Windsurf just officially changed their entire company name to windsurf from kodium. It was just a product. So let me just ask you that when does it make sense? Feels like a huge deal and a very challenging thing to do. It is challenging and it and the larger you are and the more customer base you have it it becomes uh you know a significant uh uh project. So the first thing is you you have to you have to make an argument that it's worth the change, right? That that we're going to be better off by changing our name. So there's there's a couple situations where you want to you want to change your name. First one is let's let's focus first on startups. Startups get going early. They you know they they get into Y Combinator or something like that. They're raising money and they just need a name. And although they know what they're doing and that may change by 10 or 15 degrees, uh it's almost like we just got to have a name. I mean, and and that is the absolute expression I hear from when when a startup calls and says we want to change our name. You know, we started off a a year and a half ago. We just need a new name for the documents and so we chose X, right? And it's not a very good name. So that's that's example number one. Number two is the company actually has, you know, pivoted, right? And so the name that they have no longer really reflects who who they are or who they're becoming and which makes that name ineffective. And the third is that a a company has merged and and it's time now to to to create a new start and reflect to the marketplace that we're we're new now maybe bigger uh we have but certainly we have more capabilities and we want you to know about it and because of that we're changing our name to blank which reflects those capabilities at some some level. I'm excited to have Andrew Luo joining us today. Andrew is CEO of OneKema, one of our longtime podcast sponsors. Welcome, Andrew. Thanks for having me, Lenny. Great to be here. So, what is new with One Schkeema? I know that you work with some of my favorite companies like Ramp and Vanta and Watershed. I heard you guys launched a new data intake product that automates the hours of manual work that teams spend importing and mapping and integrating CSV and Excel files. Yes. So, we just launched the 2.0 of one schema file feeds. We've rebuilt it from the ground up with AI. We saw so many customers coming to us with teams of data engineers that struggled with the manual work required to clean messy spreadsheets. File feeds 2.0 allows non-technical teams to automate the process of transforming CSV and Excel files with just a simple prompt. We support all of the trickiest file integrations, SFTP, S3, and even email. I can tell you that if my team had to build integrations like this, how nice would it be to take this off our road map and instead use something like one schema? Absolutely, Lenny. We've heard so many horror stories of outages from even just a single bad record in transactions, employee files, purchase orders, you name it. Debugging these issues is often like finding a needle in a haststack. One schema stops any bad data from entering your system and automatically validates your files, generating error reports with the exact issues in all bad files. I know that importing incorrect data can cause all kinds of pain for your customers and quickly lose their trust. Andrew, thank you so much for joining me. If you want to learn more, head on over to onskeema.co. co that's oneskeema.co. I want to come back to this linguist piece which I know is really unique to the way you guys operate and it's so interesting. So you employed you've said over 250 linguists over the course of your business career. This linguist step, the way you described it is they're not coming up with names. They're more kind of like a filter for here's all the names we've come up with. Here's the ones that are good linguistically. Is that right? Or is that team also suggesting names? Yeah, some some of the people there on particular uh depending on the assignment will actually help us create uh names for for sure. Right. And so we have linguists here and then we have in the network we have linguists and and those linguists are contracts uh to to us not full-time employees. So so there's a little bit of both but the preponderance of their work in our linguistic network is to evaluate names. Not only just is it does it mean something negative or positive, but are there cultural implications to it, political implications or even things that a natural disaster that would have happened somewhere that that you know no one here would know about. Even if we had I if we this was in Italy and there was a you know a bridge or a flood that killed a lot of people. someone that speaks Italian very well here, say at Berkeley University, but has lived here for 20 years, wouldn't know about that. And we we we don't we don't want anything linguistically that would slow our clients down. And so that's why we've invested in building this network. We have a woman that runs the network for so it's not an insignificant um uh facet of our business that we have to run and manage. Is there a name you love that didn't pass the linguistic filter that ended up being like, "Oh that's a really bad name in this culture." Yeah. Well, it it happens uh frequently uh where we will find something that that isn't really terrible, but it's s it's worrisome to us. Um it's interesting you know uh cultures like um Australian uh or in people in Austral they have a lot of interesting expressions right and so we do find things that you know this sounds like it's a certain kind of you know shrimp and things like that and we eliminate those things and then we find things that have sort of sexual connotations we eliminate those I would say it happens you every third or fourth project, we will find something that we will eliminate and never show the client and something you love. You're like, "Okay, I guess we can show that one." That's true. That happens. It does. It does. You also said this really interesting uh thing about how every letter of the alphabet has a vibrance and an experience. Can you give a few examples of that? I know you're not the person doing that work specifically, but just what are some letter feelings? Well, well, I yeah, I the the work is from the linguist, but I'm at this point I'm I'm pretty adept in it. So, let you know, let let's look at um I'll start with the letter V because it it is it is so illustrative um of of what this is about. V from our research that we've done is the most alive and vibrant sound in the English alphabet. And that's whether you were you were born in Rome or in you

知道，嗯，萨利托，加利福尼亚。嗯，所以如果你知道，如果你知道，当你环游世界时，会有一些例外。它将具有活力。所以看看科尔维特。我的意思是，他们可能不知道 V，但它是一个完美的名字，适合一辆速度快、引擎轰鸣的汽车。想想伟哥。同样的想法。嗯，我们也有过惊喜。嗯，B，字母 B 的发音是英语字母中最可靠的发音之一。顺便说一句，这也是我们为黑莓选择名字的理由之一。对。我们之所以选择，是因为这是另一位客户的例子，他认为我们……我的意思是，创始人实际上说，我以为 Lexicon 的人疯了，当他们提出黑莓这个名字时。我们说，好吧，让我们停下来看看这里的一些资产。首先，你知道，黑色代表技术。是的，不是每个人都知道“浆果”这个词，但我们有两个 B。我们谈论了复合词的性质。突然之间，人们至少会倾向于考虑它，而不是太快地拒绝它。嗯，所以，所以这只是两个例子。我提到了 Z，在 Azure 中，这是一个嘈杂的字母。嗯，嗯，X 的发音快速而清晰。嗯，当然，所有这些字母也有语义价值。X 代表创新，从飞机到计算机。所以你必须看看它的语义和声音符号。这太迷人了。我可以听一整天。嗯，只是想想 V 的 Versel，但 V 与他们正在做的事情非常吻合。就像非常强烈的、有主见的是的。工作方式和 GMO，他感觉自己是一个 V，一个 V 型人，他就是这样，还有一个拥有很多信心的团队的例子，对吧？他们的产品非常具有创新性，所以我们有空间去创造新的东西，因为 Verscell 是一个硬币解决方案，对吧？但请注意，我们将一些非常简单、易于处理的东西放在一起，或者在这个例子中是 ver ver you。所以我们有，你知道，invinovers，真相和葡萄酒之类的事情，你有 uh verde 绿色，所以，所以非常熟悉，然后有 cell，就像加速某事，这实际上是他们所做的，他们加速了客户的表现，所以这对我们来说是一个相对容易的名字，我们很兴奋，他们也……嗯，顺便说一句，这被称为处理流畅性，嗯，当你思考大脑如何处理信息时。嗯，我们从许多认知科学那里得知，我们的大脑有点懒惰。我们不喜欢复杂的东西，所以我们努力使我们所有的解决方案都相对容易，以便大脑处理。所以，所以它倾向于它们，而不是……我太忙了。我路过了。嗯，所以复杂的名字是……这是一个劣势，我们确实避免了。但 forcel 完美流畅。好的，让我们回到三个步骤。所以，我们涵盖了两个。我带你们走了一段很长的弯路，深入研究了你们分享的关于第二步“发明”的大量内容。所以，基本上三个步骤是……它是创造，是的，它是识别，识别，我故意使用“发明”这个词，因为它比创造更进一步，对吧？然后最后是实施。嗯，现在对我们来说，我们不是一家设计公司。我们真正专注于品牌名称和支持名称的术语。所以对我们来说，实施是帮助客户团队，如果他们选择我们帮助他们进行演示，当它向上汇报时，对吧？嗯，帮助他们写一个更长的理由，说明为什么这些名字，如果他们向公司总裁或首席营销官提出三个名字，为什么这些名字非常有意义，并帮助我们开发我们称之为原型的东西。所以我们会把名字印在棒球帽上，印在 T 恤上。我们会把名字放在《华尔街日报》的模拟广告中。一些非常积极的事情，比如因为……你知道，嗯，因为宝洁公司的新空白产品……宝洁公司的股票今年上涨了 10%，所以高管们可以看到这个名字能带来的提升。我们的实施阶段，我们也进行消费者研究或客户研究，我们大约 50% 的项目都会这样做。我们正在与他们的客户交流，并将这些名字置于一系列演练中。演练让他们不是当天的营销人员，但我们真的让这些客户觉得这是一个新品牌，然后我们询问他们的期望，对吧？我们正在观察这些名字如何激发他们的想象力。而这在研究中是最重要的，名字是否受欢迎？他们是否对此感到满意？它是否符合概念？如果你问人们，这是否符合概念，你不可避免地总是会得到一个描述性的名字。你提出了一个很好的观点，关于你如何需要武装与你合作的人，用弹药去赢得内部的其他人，因为如果与你合作的人都同意了，而且名字很大胆，不是显而易见的赢家。我可以看到这很重要，就像在这里，你会向他们展示什么来帮助他们看到故事和模拟广告等等。是的。而且非常重要的是，要帮助他们的管理层在市场和客户的背景下看到这一点。这是一个非常人性化的事情，但人们希望他们的老板高兴，对吧？他们希望他们的老板没问题。所以他们在想，我不知道我的老板是否会喜欢这个，你知道，他更保守，或者她更保守。我们试图以一种非常外交的方式说，这最终与你的老板无关。这与市场有关。嗯，你知道，这对我来说很容易说，因为我不在宝洁或英特尔工作，对吧？但我们确实试图提供这样的建议，因为这关系到在市场上取得成功，对吧？所以我们首先，我们试图区分我们合作的客户。我们真的想与那些力争获胜、想要获胜的客户合作，而不是仅仅不想在市场上输掉。所以我们试图鼓励我们的直接客户来领导这个过程，真正地说，“嘿，我，如果一个经理或首席营销官或总裁说，看，我们是执行这个的团队，我们相信这一点。我们可以做到这一点，他们通常会团结起来，对吧？他们通常会。嗯，但如果你只是把名字交给一个经理，然后问你觉得怎么样，结果通常不同。所以我们喜欢处于实施阶段，因为我们有丰富的经验，而且通常具有信誉。你说你们想出三到四千个名字。那是漏斗的顶部。是的。而且，只是为了澄清一下，那是想法，方向。不是准备好发货的名字。是的。完全没有准备好发货的名字。是的。这是一个非常低效且有些混乱的过程。所以在这个三千个名字的列表中，可能有 250 个潜在的钻石需要被“打磨”和检查。我真的很想在某个时候看到这个过程的纪录片。现在这是我们最接近的了，但这太有趣了。我想问一下，如果你只是一个没有时间和资源来做这件事的初创公司，你会如何处理这个问题。但在那之前，你们在与客户打交道时，还有什么过程是你们认为重要的分享，或者你们认为可能会让人们感到惊讶的吗？我想我们已经涵盖了。我确实。好的。太棒了。好的。所以，大多数听众都是很多创始人，很多产品经理，他们在开发新功能。他们即将推出一款产品。他们被 YC 录取了，即将推出一款产品。然后他们有，我不知道，假设他们有几周时间。必须想出一个名字。他们应该怎么做？所以，我做的第一件事是说，好吧，现在让我们暂时忘掉开发名字。我会让他们，我认为这对任何人来说都是一个很好的练习。我们在内部思考我们的业务时也会这样做。所以我说，因为现在大部分都是通过视频进行的，因为 COVID，我会说，就在你面前的纸上画一个钻石的形状，然后在钻石的顶部写上“赢”这个词，你知道，你如何定义赢，我真的说了。现在在钻石的另一个角落，你有什么要赢的？写下来。在底部，你赢了需要什么？然后在左边的最后一个角度。你有什么要说才能赢？好的。然后我说，现在让我们回到最后一点，你有什么要说才能赢？在那里，你只是开始思考，嗯，你知道我们这里真正拥有的是什么，而且我们比这更好，然后我会说，好吧，现在你要把它拿走，因为这真的应该关于经验和行为。你想在市场上如何表现？你想让市场如何对待你？你正在创造什么样的体验？因为，然后他们会开始，你知道，稍微谈谈。我会说，现在你只需要深入挖掘。你需要继续下去。你需要寻找隐喻，因为这关系到经验。黑色的。我会给他们一些我们谈过的例子。我们黑莓。它，它，它向市场传达了他们不像其他人。我的意思是，想想像谷歌和 infosek 这样的东西，对吧？谷歌是一种体验。谷歌说我不知道这些人会做什么，但它不是那种实际的、平凡的 infosek，对吧？这就是吸引人的地方。所以我会做一些这样的指导，然后这通常会让他们放松，他们现在把它看作是一种创造体验，而不是一个可能价值有限的词，而这种体验具有无限的价值潜力。好的。所以，让我试着把这个回馈给各位。所以，建议是创造一个三角形。所以你正在想一个名字，画一个三角形，顶部是“赢”。是的。左下角。是什么？如何赢？是的。什么？什么？所以，所以钻石是，你知道，钻石，我脑子里是三角形。明白了。钻石。太棒了。所以在下一个角度，右边是我们要赢什么？对吧？因为他们不会，你知道，要么进入 Y 组合器，要么获得一些种子资金，如果他们没有什么要赢的话，对吧？而且，而且，通常初创公司不欣赏他们实际上拥有多少东西要赢，因为他们太忙了，太有压力了。然后，他们需要赢什么？最后，他们需要说什么，对吧？然后回到……定义对我们来说什么是赢，顺便说一句，如果我们……我们通常从这个问题开始，当我们获得一项任务时，如果我们有五个人在一个房间里，所有五个人都有不同的……你知道……他们对这家公司获胜的定义不同，而这很好，可以弄清楚，因为我们可以从创造性的角度进入不同的途径。好的，让我们确保人们有这些短语，因为这太棒了。我敢肯定很多人会做笔记，就像，酷，我要这么做。我希望如此。再说一遍，让人们写下钻石的四个点，这样大家都能记下来。钻石的顶部是……就是“赢”这个词，下面是“我们如何为公司定义赢”，对吧？而且，而且，这可以从简单的开始，比如，“我们想成为这里的领导者”，但你真的必须努力。那到底意味着什么，对吧？第二个……在钻石的右尖端是“我们要赢什么”？我们现在正在做什么让我们成为赢家？然后我们向下到钻石的底部，那就是“我们需要赢什么”？可能有技术方面的东西，人们谈论人才和资源。嗯，通常他们会说，“我们需要一个好名字。”我们总是纠正它，不是好名字，而是合适的名字。然后最后是“我们需要说什么”？这就是我说的，你需要在那里花些时间，真正思考所有你需要说的话，你可以说，甚至喜欢说的话，也许现在你不能说，但你想要一个名字，它实际上将具有灵活性，当你能够说出它时，它仍然有效。这让他们进入行为和体验。这通常会引发一次很好的……与创始人……内部的讨论。所以，当你说是“必须赢”时，你想到的是什么？你拥有什么将帮助你赢？你需要拥有什么才能赢？所有公司都处于同一种情况。他们拥有一堆东西，但他们需要……我的意思是，你知道，宝洁可能会说，“我们需要一个……你知道……一个好的分销商。”好的。好吧，把它列出来，对吧？然后你可能会说，“我们需要一个……当涉及到我们需要说什么时，我们必须说正确的话，这样分销商才会对我们感兴趣。”然后，然后你就会走下去……嗯，那是什么，对吧？而且，如果你们努力去做，这并不是一个……一个小时的练习。这可能是一个……你知道……在接下来的四五天里重复的练习。好的。好的。所以，你有了这个钻石，然后想法就是坐在那里，把名字写在谷歌文档里，比如说。是的。然后你开始，但是……而且也许这是天真的。我猜这可能是最恰当的词了，因为我总是听到这句话，“嘿，我们……我们努力了。我们有 200 个名字的列表，但是……我们不认为有什么特别之处。”我会说，200 个名字还不够，对吧？达到一千五百个名字和方向，不要评估它们，只是生成名字、方向和想法，然后开会，不要评估，而是推测。你知道我们可以用这个名字做什么？这里的潜力是什么？嗯，嗯，我们的行业中有太多的过度评估，对吧？嗯，这是有道理的。我们作为人类之所以能生存，是因为我们能发现这张图片有什么问题，对吧？如果我想过马路，过马路安全吗？发生了什么？这些事情。你必须反击。你必须说，让我们暂时搁置判断，让我们……让我们做一个练习，我们选择这 10 个我们认为可能有效的名字，然后我们要怎么做？因为这是如何执行。嗯，你知道，回到风帆冲浪，如果我们向他们展示人们风帆冲浪和海浪的照片，如果他们说，“啊，你知道，这对我们来说根本行不通。我非常不舒服。”那么它就不是他们的名字，对吧？嗯，嗯，但他们接受了。好的。我明白了。这很容易……对我们来说，执行起来很容易。它很有活力。它很不一样。所以，所以这就是为什么我们为人们构建这些原型。而且我认为我能给初创公司或开始一家新饼干公司的任何人的最好建议是，它不仅仅是一份 200 个名字的列表。它是……你知道…… 10 或 15 个 200 个名字的列表，并且要考虑我们在这里要说什么？什么行为？我们希望人们对我们有什么感觉？我敢肯定，人们对谷歌感到宽慰，因为它不是一个描述性的名字，你知道，市场上有一些新东西。是的。Infoseek，现在想想，这是一个多么描述性的名字。是的。好的。所以，关于这一点还有一个问题。所以，假设你有一个列表，比如说 2000 或 1000 个名字。作为自己做这件事的人，你之间存在一种张力。你的建议是选择大胆的东西，而不是描述性的东西。你不会一眼就看出来。显然，当你自己做的时候，这非常困难。有什么建议可以让你不“忽视”这一点，而是选择一个大胆的名字，正如你所建议的？首先，我们……这是纯粹的人类心理学。我们人类真的只关注新的或不同的东西，我应该说，对吧？嗯，嗯，所以如果你看着鞋子，它们都是黑色的，然后下一双鞋是红色的，那是你首先关注的。所以这通常会给人们许可。你知道，他们会说，“好吧，我明白了。”所以，所以寻找你列表中的名字之间真正不同的地方，也寻找与市场上不同的地方，对吧？嗯，你知道，然后你会遇到像微软这样的客户说，“嗯，Azure 是不同的。”会有很多关于云的东西，而且有一个相关的观点，Azure 是蓝色的，所以有一个轻微的逻辑联系，我认为这给了他们更多的许可去推进它，坦率地说，但它……听着，这不是一件容易的事。我的意思是，这就是为什么我们从事这个行业，以及为什么我觉得我们应该专业化，因为如果你开始做设计或广告或其他事情，你无法获得我们拥有的知识引擎。所以，我知道这很难，但这是可以做到的，你只需要给自己一些时间。但要停止评估，搁置判断，并进行推测。这是我对那些试图自己做这件事的人的头号建议。现在，你如何获得帮助？你可以……你可以和你的员工谈谈，但不是问“你觉得这个名字怎么样？”而是问“你认为这个名字能为我们做什么？”这是一个更好的问题，对吧？如果你出去和不为你的公司工作的朋友交谈，嗯，我建议一个有趣的练习。我说，“听着，出去和他们说，他们会知道你在做什么，然后说，你知道吗，我们有一个新竞争对手，他们的名字是空白的。你怎么看？”那里发生的是，你不是让他们给你一个意见来评估一个名字。你让他们告诉你那个名字对你有什么作用。你得到的信息是，那个名字，他们告诉你那个名字对他们有什么作用。它如何帮助他们想象，这是任何名字的基本作用。稍微跑题了，但我要去我们的研究。嗯，我们现在主要做定量研究，但多年来我们做过定性工作，我们仍然在做，但我们发现……我们一直在寻找……我会这样说，我们一直在寻找消费者对这个问题的答案。如果一个消费者说，“嗯，我不太了解那个新产品，但我知道他们不像其他人。”那时我们就知道我们有一个好名字。嗯，因为他们现在……那发生了什么？我的意思是，我们使用的技术术语是，这个名字会产生一种考虑这个产品的倾向，因为他们不像其他人，而不是“我已经有了类似的东西。我不需要另一个。我需要一些新的、不同的，而且希望更好的东西。”这太棒了。这是一个很好的提醒。有一句你的名言，正是关于这个的。如果你的团队对这个名字感到满意，那么你很可能还没有找到名字。是的。是的。而且，顺便说一句，与此相反的是，我们寻找两极分化。我们寻找团队内部的紧张关系，关于争论这些事情。因为我们认为两极分化是这个词力量的标志。一个有趣的故事，教我这一点的人，老实说，是安迪·格罗夫，关于奔腾的名字，我从他那里学到了很多。我一直这么说。我，你知道，我真的很幸运……能够和他一起研究奔腾和赛扬以及其他一些事情。但是当我们……当我们去……向执行委员会展示奔腾时，顺便说一句，内部有一个名字，而且很有意义，描述性的工程师们，专业芯片，嘿，它是专业的，它是高级的，它是芯片，所以应该是 Prochip，对吧？好的……安迪让我做了一个关于这个东西的优势的演示，他说，他说，“现在让我告诉你为什么我认为这是正确的名字。”他说，“因为我在这里看到人们的两极分化，这里有一些……你知道…… Prochip 在这里，还有奔腾的东西。”他说，“这告诉我奔腾在这里有能量。”他说，“这就是为什么我认为我们应该选择它。”我从未忘记。所以我们确实在寻找那个，当我们讲这个故事时，人们说，“你知道，你是对的，我……我们正在争论这件事，而且这个名字很有能量。”这就是你想要的。你不想进入市场，这个竞争非常激烈的市场，无论是什么类别，都带着一个缺乏一定胆量或能量的东西。那是一个惊人的故事。嗯，再次，这是一个……所以，一个技巧是，如果你的团队一半人，或者我不知道，一定比例的团队讨厌它，一定比例的团队喜欢它，这是一个好迹象。是的。是的。寻找那种两极分化。这就是我们寻找的。我也喜欢这个技巧，问人们，“嘿，我们的竞争对手刚刚推出了，他们叫风帆冲浪，你的团队有什么反应？如果他们只是说，“哇，那是个好名字，我对那个产品很感兴趣。”那就是你想要寻找的。是的。是的。你起的名字的域名有多重要？我猜现在很难得到，你对域名有什么看法？我很高兴你问这个问题，因为在这个阶段，它根本不重要了。com 或 URL 地址已经变成了一个区号，无论你在 415 还是 615，人们都不太在意。而且现在有了人工智能，你知道，搜索引擎优化将不再重要，对吧？所以，我只是认为这里的原则是，你必须先获得正确的名字，然后如果你能获得 .sure，那就去做吧，但如果你不能，总有办法的。你可以……你知道，你可以在前面加一个前缀，或者在前面或后面加一个小词，或者你去 aai 之类的东西。但这里的原则是，让我们先获得正确的名字。对于那些真正……有些人确实对 .com 感到困扰，他们往往是……顺便说一句，他们在脑海中有着互联网的“热门”概念，并且拥有一个 .com，这在 25 年前确实有区别，但现在是 25 年或 30 年，对吧？嗯，好消息是，因为它们价值较低，所以通常可以以 15、20、25、30,000 美元的价格购买一个 URL，如果你谈判得当并且有时间。而且，你知道，我们说，“嘿，如果你能做到，那就去吧。”我会把 30,000 美元花在营销上。太棒了。这让人放心。我敢肯定，很多创始人都在想，“该死的，现在没有名字可用了。”让我们放大一下，问你这个问题，作为……也许是结束我们谈话的思考。假设你在电梯里和某人聊天，我敢肯定这种情况经常发生，“嘿，大卫，我必须想出一个名字。你有什么关于想出一个好名字的最大建议？”我会回到思考，忘掉这个词，思考行为和经验。然后第二点是，从纯粹的……创造性的帮助来看。我非常相信同步性。嗯，我们试图在这里强行同步性，我会举几个例子。但有一种想法是将……你知道，两个不相关的想法联系在一起。所以我会说，“看，如果有人说，嗯，你知道，我们……我们制造……我们制造帆船，我正在……我在这里萨利托。我猜这就是我为什么想到这个。但是……我正在为我建造帆船的公司创造一个新名字。我会说，忘掉帆船。我会去挑选一些关于打猎……或者飞行……飞行杂志，我会浏览一下，拿出一本笔记本，写下你喜欢的词，你喜欢的表达方式。所以你……然后是同步性。我说，我敢打赌五美元，从这两本杂志中你会得到一个你从未想过的词，但不知何故它会与帆船有关。这与你讲述的关于你有不同团队的故事非常吻合，而最终想出获胜名字的团队是那些考虑该产品非常不同的版本的人。是的。太有趣了。好的，大卫，这正是我所希望的。我觉得我们会帮助很多人。有什么我们没有涵盖的，或者你想在进入我们非常令人兴奋的闪电轮之前，留给听众的最后一点建议或故事吗？我想强调一点，我想……我真的希望听众们开始思考品牌名称的价值有多大。你不仅仅是在寻找一个词，你是在寻找这种体验，对吧？如果你做对了，不仅仅是好名字，而是合适的名字，价值几乎是无限的，对吧？所以，给自己一些时间，给自己一些预算，给自己正确的资源去做。第二件事是，你知道，我们在这里努力做到真正有用。所以我总是……我很乐意与人们谈谈他们在过程中的处境，以及我们是否能提供帮助，或者只是给他们一些建议。嗯，我们安排了……我们称之为办公时间。我们很谨慎，但我们对此持开放态度。这只是在玩一场长期的游戏。所以我希望与观众分享这一点。另外，我们很快就要预订你的办公时间了。我喜欢这个提议。我认为很多人会利用它。这太酷了。大卫，有了这个，我们就进入了我们非常令人兴奋的闪电轮。我有五个问题要问你。你准备好了吗？是的，我准备好了。我们开始吧。你最常推荐给别人的两三本书是什么？有一本书叫《韧性》，是一位前海军陆战队员写的。它不是关于战斗，也不是关于成为一名海豹突击队员，而是关于克服困难，关于坚韧不拔。我认为……世界上每个人都有挑战和困难。我确实向人们推荐这本书。第二本书是……安德鲁·罗伯茨最新的关于温斯顿·丘吉尔的书。温斯顿·丘吉尔确实是我最敬佩的人之一。他是 20 世纪最不寻常、最具挑衅性的政治家之一。这是另一个人，谈论坚韧不拔，起起落落，坚持不懈。所以我确实喜欢向人们推荐这本书，有些人只是……你知道，他们会耸耸肩说，“我不知道，这似乎是一本无聊的书。”但这两本书我……谁会说丘吉尔的故事很无聊？这太荒谬了。我认为是这样。我同意。我同意。这太荒谬了。是的。是的。他太迷人了。嗯，有一部最近的纪录片，我认为它真正展现了他的……是的。性格。是的。是的。太棒了。你最近喜欢的电影或电视节目是什么？对我来说是《黄石》系列。嗯，我们……我们很幸运，作为一个家庭。我们在蒙大拿州有一些房产，你正在过着……是的。非常……我无法告诉你我有多幸运。而且……我 28 年前买的这块地，那时候下着雪，所以便宜多了，感觉对了。但是……我认为特别是《1883》，它是你……我正要问你是否看过，因为那太棒了。是的。然后是《1923》，这是《1883》的续集，它真正让人们了解了早期美国人在蒙大拿州这样一个美丽但艰难的地方建立生活所付出的努力。所以，而且它太棒了。嗯，你知道制作和撰写这些东西的人非常有才华。泰勒·谢里丹，我想是他的名字。是的。我喜欢，就像故事一样，蒙大拿州几乎是轻松的路线，从他们所经历的旅程来看。没错。这是非常真实的。是的。哦，天哪。是的。你几乎不需要看《黄石》，《黄石》从《1883》开始就是这样运作的。事实上，我推荐人们，我说有三个，但如果你真的想了解美国西部的真相，那就是《1883》。是的。我在这档播客上推荐过很多次了。所以我很高兴你选择了这个。下一个问题。你最近发现有什么喜欢的产品吗？也许是你命名的，也许不是。嗯，我没有命名它，尽管它有一个非常好的名字。嗯，我们全家，我有两个女儿和我妻子。我们都是飞钓爱好者，去年夏天。嗯，我确实……我为自己买了，但送给了我妻子，但这是我送给她的礼物，但我知道我会用得更多。它是一个哈迪，这是一根古老的英国飞钓竿，但它是一根漂亮的竿子。它非常适合蒙大拿州的大河流。所以，这是我最喜欢的购买。这是播客上的第一根飞钓竿。绝佳的选择。下一个问题。你有没有什么最喜欢的生命格言，你经常会和朋友或家人分享？我确实有。我确实有。而且，它有点长。所以，所以我写了它，我在这里写着，但是……它是……来自…… T·E·劳伦斯，阿拉伯的劳伦斯。如果我能找到它，我应该……是的。我认为这是一个很棒的引语。所以，我希望你的观众会喜欢这个。他说了什么？他说，“所有人都做梦，但并非平等。那些在夜晚做梦的人，在他们思维的尘土飞扬的角落里，白天醒来发现那是虚荣。但白天的梦想家是危险的人。因为他们可能会睁大眼睛去实现他们的梦想，使之成为可能。”我多年前读到这句话，它……它深深地打动了我。所以，是的，这是一个惊人的引语。它让我想起……关于那个……竞技场里的男人。是的。是的。这是相同的……这是相同的想法，只是有点不同。是的。是的。而且，我也认为阿拉伯的劳伦斯是一个迷人的人……他所做的事情。在某些方面非常鼓舞人心。是的。一部令人惊叹的电影。好的。最后一个问题。嗯，让我试试。有没有一个你没有命名的名字，你只是觉得，哇，那是个很棒的名字。我真希望我能想出那个名字。我……我会告诉你，有一个名字。嗯，是梦工厂。嗯，我认为这是一个很棒的名字，而且有点讽刺的是，娱乐业的名字通常很普通，对吧？所以，所以你有很多有才华的人，但当你看看……制作工作室、电影公司的名字，你知道，康卡斯特，你知道，诸如此类的事情，它非常普通。这里是梦工厂。就像索纳斯，符合所有要求。复合词“梦”。我，你知道，你……你期望从梦工厂得到一些伟大的东西。他们创造了一种体验。在电影中做梦的体验。我认为这是一个很棒的名字。我希望我做到了。这是一个很酷的答案。大卫，非常感谢你这样做。这太不可思议了。我学到了很多，我敢肯定。我觉得很多人在思考这个问题时会容易得多。嗯，嗯，我当然希望如此。我确实。这非常非常愉快。嗯，嗯，非常有思想。嗯，而且……我对你做事的方式只有敬意。嗯，以及你拥有的才能。所以……非常幸运……我们走到了一起，我们住在同一个地方。所以，也许我们可以一起喝杯咖啡什么的。北加州万岁。非常感谢你来到这里。你太客气了。再见，大家。保重。非常感谢您的收听。如果您觉得有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您喜欢的播客应用上订阅本节目。另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这真的能帮助其他听众找到播客。您可以在 lennispodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关节目的更多信息。下一集再见。