Transcription
[Music] Hello and welcome back to another episode of the Help Is Here podcast, brought to you by the Beyond Compulsion Academy. Today, we are going to be exploring and analyzing "Your Brain on Porn" by Gary Wilson. I've read this for the third time now and I've really analyzed it quite thoroughly, taking notes and highlighting various sort of sections throughout the book. Um, so welcome on the podcast, Mary. Have you heard of this? Have you heard of this book before? "Your Brain on Porn"?
>> Well, I heard of it from you. Uh, didn't you try to use it to stop porn the other times you read it?
>> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, I really did try and use this to stop watching porn. And I did learn a lot from it. That was when I was introduced to transcription factors and how watching porn can change your brain. Uh, things like delta phosp and kreb. They basically alter the genes according to this book and can lead to sensitization, where you're going to be more sensitive to seeing certain cues or experiencing certain triggers in your environment or emotionally. And also desensitization, where you end up looking at progressively sexual novel content because you no longer really feel too excited by the vanilla stuff that you first started with. Um, but
>> Sounds like addicted neuropathways.
>> Sounds like addicted neuropathways. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. >> Yeah. >> Pretty much. >> But a lot of a lot of research, a lot of science in this book. Uh, very interestingly though, when you get to the advice section, um, it's like it's like all of the the no fap stuff in one place. It's like everything I tried for 10 years all just in one place. And I'm like, "Oh [ __ ] that's why that's why I wasn't able to stop for like 10 years because the advice is terrible."
>> So, it's really interesting reading it again, actually.
>> Oh, >> Um, do you want to just get straight into kind of the advice section because I think that's the most interesting part of the book. It's like, okay, well, what do you actually do? How do you stop the behavior? Um,
>> Sure, why not?
>> Yeah. Cool. And and the advice in here is honestly the worst stuff. It's like it's like the exact opposite of what we talk about. It's like the points that we make all the time to kind of get across why people struggle. And it's really interesting cuz it's like this has helped me see that the source is all the source of like all my problems are kind of coming from this book. And it's like all these no flappers and different podcasters, they were taking things from this book because there's some science in it and going, "Oh, you need to remove triggers. Oh, you need to block your porn." And so on and so on. So it's like, oh [ __ ] this is like the origin of the misinformation. So it's been really fascinating.
>> Is it a bestseller?
>> Is it a bestseller? No, it's not it's not a bestseller. But interestingly, what happened with this is I feel like Gary Wilson was so unfortunately, I think he's passed away now. And I honestly think this guy, um, you know, I've got so much respect for him in terms of how he was on a mission to try and help people overcome porn addiction and raise awareness. And I think he did a TED talk at some point. Um, actually, I know he did cuz I watched that many years ago. Um, but the problem is like, as much as he was raising information around porn addiction, a lot of the information he was kind of gathering was also from the nofap communities and from Reddit. So he was taking it directly from people struggling with a porn addiction, hearing their stories and then sort of using it as part of his book. And so like throughout the book you have like examples of uh of like stories from people who have overcome porn temporarily doing a streak. And some of them are just so cringey as well. Like I I'll just give you an example of one. Yeah.
>> Um, so someone says, "Yeah, a few months after I quit porn, I got my superpowers. I did a lot of things for the first time, including kissing a girl within two minutes of meeting her and being invited to another girl's apartment."
>> Um, and it's just like things like that throughout the whole book. You know, this idea of superpowers and there's so much talk about sex in this book as well. And I'm just like, no, like sex is not actually that relevant to porn, as mental as that might sound. It's more about how do you actually deal with your own mind? How do you deal with your own thoughts? It's not just about sex. And like the whole book's kind of themed about, okay, let's replace porn with sex because porn's bad because it's on a screen. Sex is good because it's with real people. We try we, you know, reiterate over and over with the guys, separate porn addiction from sex with actual people, you know, they're not the same thing. So, if we really try to separate it, much less, you know, combine the two, conflate the two.
>> Yeah. >> Yeah. And actually, obviously, it's uh it's not fun to talk about clients that we've worked with who have chosen to engage. They've relapsed. But like a really good example of that is we had a client today message us. I think he'd been on what we call the straight line for maybe seven or eight months. A long, long time.
>> Um, and he messaged us today and what had happened is he'd chosen to engage. I think maybe earlier in the week, was it or yesterday or something last night. Um, and one of the reasons he said he chose to engage is because he'd had a couple of situations with real-life women where he felt very rejected. He felt hurt. And then he had the junky thought of, oh, well, you know, I can't have sex with these women, so, you know, may as well go to porn. And that's just another really, really good example of why you shouldn't base your success on overcoming porn addiction to do with external factors like how much sex you're having with women. Because there's going to be times in your life where you do get rejected and it it sucks. It hurts. It's painful.
>> But there's never a good reason. There's no rationalization to ever go, "Okay, [ __ ] it. I'm going to go put myself back in a full-time addiction and strengthen those addicted neural pathways."
>> Um, so yeah, if you're trying to stop porn, you know, do it for yourself. Do it for how you feel, uh, for changing your own neural pathways. Have more maybe self-esteem, self-trust, confidence. Don't do it for anything external like how much sex you're going to be having because also it just leads to substitution anyway. The choice is not between, you know, successful dating, sex with women, or, you know, getting rejected or not getting rejected. Um, and a porn addiction. That's not what the choice is between, right? And the thing is is you can't use I'm going to go use porn because this woman hurt my feelings because she rejected me and then and then carry on from there and like, oh, now I'm going to go date and everything's going to be fine and normal. No, you're going to be back in a full-time porn addiction. That's the choice that you're making. So yeah, it's it's again, it's underestimating addiction, you know, and the choice to engage.
>> Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I just think when you separate those two things, everything is a lot, a lot easier because the other thing that can come up is a lot of unanswerable questions and junky thoughts in relation to the sex and
>> Um, there's all sorts of stuff like that in this book as well.
>> Well, the other thing too is, you know, we recommend for for our clients that are not in a relationship when they come to us, a lot of them are. A lot of them are married, a lot of them have full-time relationships, you know, girlfriends, whatever. We recommend to abstain from dating at least temporarily while they're overcoming their porn addiction because of the unanswerable questions. It's it's just another way of substituting and avoiding that discomfort of withdrawal, you know, just, oh, I'm going to go and talk to some women or I'm going to go on a date or I'm going to go try to have sex or whatever. That we recommend to, you know, abstain from that from a from a proactive stance, right? You know, choosing to abstain from that to be real clear about the withdrawal process, right? Because it's so it's so susceptible to unanswerable questions and just and and being conflated and it's not it's not uh conducive to the process.
>> Yeah. >> 100%. And I think
>> What that makes me think about is just shifting your overall goal, you know, from the outset. A lot of people, they've got the goal, okay, I want to I want to stop watching porn, right? Yeah, for sure. Okay, that's that's going to be one of the sort of byproducts of taking back control of your mind and changing the way you think and learning how to deal with urges, right? Of course.
>> But what we've got to do is like change the overall goal. Um, if I have a look, I'm just trying to find it in here. There's a really, really interesting point where it basically says, you know, what what's the goal here? Well, the goal is to to stop watching porn and and then go and like have loads of sex. That's kind of the point of this book, is something along those lines.
>> Yeah.
>> Um, okay. Well, you know, let's just say you went into this whole thing, I can't find the exact quote, but let's just say you went into this whole thing of, okay, what's my goal? My goal isn't to do a streak. My goal isn't like to, I don't know, go in like some nofap forum and celebrate how I've hit 100 days of nofap. Um, my goal is just to feel stability, feel grounded, and feel like I know exactly how to deal with compulsive desires of any sort at all times. Now, compulsive desire, that can be the desire to spend too much time on social media. It could be the desire to watch hours of Netflix or YouTube. It could be the desire to overeat food. It could be drugs, alcohol, porn. I mean, it's not to say we eliminate every single behavior like this from our life. It's just you know how to deal with that desire. you know when you're getting out of control and you know how to stop any behavior in your life that you want to stop. That for me should be the goal for everyone. And within that, you know, criteria, um, there's nothing really there about, okay, we're going to we're going to just stop watching porn and go have sex with some women. Like it's not it's not really that related. It's about changing the way you think. the long-term benefit. When you deal with the with the addicted neuropathways and then you feel free and in control of yourself, you know, in regard to any compulsive desire, then the long-term benefit is you can probably enter a relationship with a person, with a woman, whatever. Um, and that can be a healthy sexual relationship. It's not, oh, I want to stop porn so I can go get lots of sex from women. You know what I mean? And it's like that's not that's not the goal. And the goal is that long-term peace of mind that you can just feel confident in yourself in any situation. And you know, you might find a girlfriend who likes to have a lot of sex. Great. Good for you.
>> Yeah. >> Yeah. Exactly. And that's a good point as well because then you can actually have sex without thinking, "Oh, wow. It's so great that I'm on this 150 day streak now. I get to have loads of sex." It's like, no, you just have sex and you probably be like, "Oh, >> Yeah, it was a nice experience." Just like that was cool.
>> You get with a girl and you have erectile dysfunction, you know? It's like deal with the addiction and then let's let's think about the dating scene, you know.
>> Exactly. Exactly. Got to get things in the right order, really.
>> Uh, for sure.
>> So yeah, in terms of the recommended suggestions then in this book, as I say, it's a lot of uh a lot of nonsense, really. It's it's being taken from the successful as such users within nofap forums, people on streaks basically sharing their advice and all giving each other sort of tips on how to stop watching porn. Um, and here's the first one, right? So, remove all porn. You know, it's talking about deleting all porn from your devices. Um, getting rid of it, you know, making sure that you've deleted any backups and anything in the trash and deleting sort of certain bookmarks and browser history, all that kind of thing. So, it's just about, yeah, chucking away all of the porn that you have. Um, the second tip is moving your furniture around because it says environmental cues associated with use can be powerful triggers because they fire up sensitized pathways and and the goal in this book is to remove any triggers or urges. Uh, the next one's considering a porn blocker and an ad blocker. Um, and then the fourth one is considering a day counter. Um, so yeah, basically keeping a streak.
>> That's the advice.
>> That's the the top four bits. Yeah. Um, then we get into
>> Move your furniture around. This is a good one. You know, I haven't heard that since the advice for nicotine addiction. When you if you smoke in a certain chair, don't sit in that chair anymore. You know, or you smoke in your car, take the bus. You know, it's like, I'm going to take the bus. Are you kidding me? Well, avoids a desire to smoke. It's just it's just so lame. It's really lame. Yeah.
>> And you would think by now people would get like removing triggers. It just does not work. The trigger. You're going to be triggered as long as you have addicted neuropathways. You know, it's just not going to have to do with where your where your computer is sitting on what desk, you know, or or it's not going to have to do with um, you know, what you see on your computer or whatever. It's like you're going to be triggered until you until you change that pathway. That's just the bottom line, you know.
>> Yeah. And and the thing is as well is
>> What you're doing if you just remove your triggers is you're denying yourself the opportunity to actually change those neural pathways correctly. And I can't tell you how many people we've worked with who have originally gone at some point in their life, maybe months, maybe even years without watching porn and then they go they relapse. I was even talking to a new guy today who was saying, yeah, he he went on like a two or three year stint and then he'd relapse and now he's he's in his 50s now. And this has been his story of his life. It's just like going on stints, going on a streak, relapsing, back in the addiction, um, and completely confused by what's going on. And it's like, well, yeah, you've not been educated on how do you actually deal with compulsive desires, deal with urges. Okay, maybe you've used some willpower, which they talk a lot about in this book. Again, you know, willpower and how great willpower is and how you're going to have more willpower over a certain amount of time, which again is never really been my experience.
>> Or a lot of distraction and substitution and you can drag that out for a while, but without those changes, then oh, here comes the trigger two years down the road, you know?
>> Yeah. Yeah. And talking about distraction, um, there's all these different like substitute ideas in this book as well. And here's like an example of again another quote from one of the people who it's posted in one of these forums. And then this quote has been used as like a good example of like, oh, you can get to this position with distraction. This is the quote.
>> Yoga gets me out of the h Yoga gets me out of the house and helps me burn off some steam. All right. Okay. You like some yoga? That's cool. Yoga for porn addiction is not going to be useful. But the next bit is the worst. The next Mary, just wait. This is horrendous. All right.
>> Yeah. >> Yeah.
>> So, the first sentence, "Yoga gets me out of the house and helps me burn off some steam." Lots of beautiful women there, too. Very beautiful women. H dot dot dot women. My god. Okay. Well, I think that someone needs to let the women at this yoga class know. Yeah. It's like I wouldn't want to be doing downward dog in front of this dude.
>> Oh my.
>> Sorry. I'm just saying, you know, God, yoga seems to be like the solution for everything anymore. And don't get me wrong, I love yoga. I think yoga is really great, but they seem they they seem to try to apply it to addiction on the regular now, you know?
>> Yeah. It's just so creepy.
>> Imagine I don't know. Yeah. Like if my girlfriend or my mom or my sister, all of which have gone to yoga classes in their lives, if any of them went to yoga and they had someone struggling with a porn addiction going to yoga to try and avoid their virgin and then talking about how beautiful women are and saying h women. I'd be like, get the [ __ ] out the yoga class.
>> Women.
>> Oh, it's so creepy. Yeah, it's not the one.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Another example, I mean, there's so much bad advice in this book, but one of them is uh get outside. And they say, "Researchers have found that time in nature is good for the brain." Um, and I love this bit in particular because it mentions my hometown, Sheffield. Up Sheffield. If anyone knows Sheffield, but it says, "If you live in a city, walk to parks." Uh, which I found interesting in particular because in Sheffield, it's actually like the greenest city in Europe. That's where I'm from and there's a park literally outside my house. There's parks everywhere in Sheffield. Um, but anyway, it says, "According to researchers at the University of Sheffield, tranquil living environments can positively affect human brain function." But what I just found interesting about that is like, what has that got to do with porn addiction? Like, yes, it's true. Yes, if you get out into nature and you're spending a lot of time in green areas and in parks, it's great. I love growing up in Sheffield. There's parks literally everywhere. It's like the most green place ever. But for 18 years of my life, I grew up there. And for like, I don't know, what's what six years of that 18 years I was stuck in the porn addiction and I was in the park like most days. I was still going home every single night and masturbating to porn, sometimes multiple times a day. I've grown up in Sheffield like
>> Tranquil living environments positively impact human brain function.
>> Yeah.
>> Tell that to 16-year-old me watching porn four times a night. It doesn't help. It's another it's just another thing that is like advice that you could give to someone who maybe is depressed or maybe, you know, or anxious or, you know, whatever they're just having a kind of a rough go, feeling sad, whatever, bored, what, you know, this kind of stuff. Give that advice to them. Yeah, you know, being out in nature, fresh air, all that is Yeah. It's good for the for the uh for the brain and for for you know, serotonin or whatever, but not for addiction, people.
>> No.
>> Get over it already.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Cuz what do you do when that moment comes? That inevitable moment where you go,
>> [ __ ] now, right? I just want to watch porn so bad right now. And oh, it's been a long day. I'm I'm tired. I'm stressed. I'm lonely. Oh, I just, you know what I do to just look at that new video or oh, I wonder if that OnlyFans creator has posted anything on Instagram today or oh, let me just scroll on X for a little while just in case I accidentally see something sexual. Like unless you know how to deal with those thoughts, you know, a lot of the information in this book is going to be completely useless and you're never going to
>> Really change those neural pathways, which is possible. Anyone, anyone at all can literally get to a position where you feel freaking good about this situation. Like you don't you're no longer bothered about porn. You're no longer scared of urges. You're you're free. Like you're genuinely free from this problem. That is possible for everyone. It's not going to work if you're removing triggers and substituting and distracting yourself because then how are you ever going to have that feeling of, okay, I'm the one in control now. I know how to deal with urges. That should be the goal for everyone. Um, so just temporarily. Yeah. Go ahead, Mary.
>> You won't. You'll go down two years like the dude you talked to today. Two years down the road and there you are. That here comes the urge. Strong urge. And like, what are you going to do? Run out into the trees, you know?
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Run out into the woods.
>> Exactly. Exactly.
>> Sorry, people.
>> I think the reason I'm so passionate about all of this today is because I literally went in circles for 10 years using all the sort of information in this book. And
>> Yeah.
>> I mean, I'm not even that old. Like 10 years is a a large, large part of my life. And, you know, the the shame, the uh, the frustration, the the exhaustion, the the way in which it impacts my relationships. Like people's lives have been massively, massively impacted by this. And I mean, don't get me wrong, I think Gary Wilson, as I said, great intentions. I'm sure he's helped a lot of people. And one thing I would say about this book, it is fantastic if you want to relate and you want to resonate with other people because there's countless stories within this book where you go, "Oh my god, that's just like me." And I think as a starting place for someone feeling a lot of shame, that can be very comforting. But then if you actually
>> You're not alone.
>> Yeah. You're not alone. Exactly. Which is good. And uh, you know, I resonated to so many stories in here. But then it's like, well, what do you actually then do in terms of changing your neural pathways? And another really, really good example of kind of where this book goes wrong is it says when you feel the urge, ask yourself, what emotions am I feeling? What time is it? Who else is around? What did I just do? Where am I? What could I do instead that would meet my needs? Mo, do you want to kind of cover this one?
>> Well, the for starters, it's unanswerable questions. I mean, and also leads to deprivation thinking. That idea that, oh, what are my emotions? Well, you know, because they'll tell you if you're feeling these particular emotions, that's not a reason to to go look at porn or whatever. But what it does is it's like, "Oh, well, I'm feeling this particular emotion now. So, I can't go look at porn, so I should find a way to deal with this emotion in a in a in a healthy way or whatever the advice is these days, you know?" But the thing is is if you're feeling like I can't look at porn because it's this emotion that I'm having, right? Then there you go. Now, you've invited all the feelings of deprivation as well, right? So, it's it's kind of a lose-lose situation. Uh, what's what was the second one in there?
>> So yeah, what emotions am I feeling was the first one. Then what time is it?
>> Like what time of day?
>> Yeah, I think so. Yeah.
>> What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? You know,
>> I have no idea. And then it's who else is around?
>> Have you ever heard that expression? Sorry, that might be politically incorrect anymore. I don't know. You can't really say much of anything.
>> You can you can say what you want here. I think I think it's I think it's a great expression. What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? My dad used to say that.
>> I love it. It's good.
>> Yeah.
>> I mean, I don't really know what it means, but I don't know what this question means.
>> It means it means it means this has nothing to do with anything that's relevant to uh stopping porn, stopping using porn. What time is it? Was like, "Oh, well, have you allotted yourself certain times a day that you can do it and then certain times you can't? It's too early to do it, so I can't. Okay, so more feelings of deprivation. What is it like? I don't understand even what that what that is relevant to.
>> Yeah, it just reminds me of what time is it, Mr. Wolf? Do you know that game? Do you have that in the States?
>> No. No. Uh-uh.
>> I won't get into it. It's a It's a whole another podcast episode. Um, then we have Who else is around? As in like I again, it's not relevant. Who is who else is around?
>> What? Who? Who else is around? Like
>> Yeah, maybe it's like, oh,
>> People like
>> Yeah, so I actually should give a bit more context to this. So this was about
>> Yeah. Uh,
>> This was about like urges and triggers. I think so. It's like when when you feel the urge, ask yourself these things because I think it's trying to help you understand and identify your triggers, which I get makes sense if you're on that never-ending journey of, you know, no flapping, removing triggers, which is what a lot of people try and do, which is why I try to do. Um, so it's like, okay, what emotions am I feeling? So, okay, I'm I'm feeling stressed. I'm feeling tired. I'm feeling lonely. Oh, that means that um maybe maybe I'm going to be triggered. So, now what I know for next time is to, you know, find a better way to deal with my stress and loneliness and tiredness or whatever. And then it's like, what time is it? Okay, so I know now at 11 at night, that's when I get triggered. So, I need to be super careful for 11:00.
>> Makes a little more sense, I guess.
>> Who else is around? Classic example would be when you're younger, your parents go out of the house. Oh, okay. Excited. Now, you know, I get to watch porn now. My parents are out. And that's how I actually used to feel. So, it's like identifying these uh these triggers and these these cues, you know, that lead to having more cravings. Uh, what did I just
>> I'm I'm visiting my grandma. Maybe I shouldn't pull it out.
>> Well, yeah. Exactly.
>> Yeah.
>> Okay. Sorry. Go ahead. Go ahead.
>> And then it's like, what did I just do? Where am I? What could I do instead that would meet my needs? Honestly, I used to ask myself these sort of questions to be fair. So, like, you know, I if you're listening to this and you're like, "Okay, why are you guys like taking the piss so much?" Well, honestly, I've been exactly where you are because, but the problem is this is what happened for me. Like, if I just kind of share quickly. So,
>> I used to relapse and then ask myself these questions and then try and learn from the triggers what to do next time. So then I could, you know, avoid certain situations, maybe not have my phone in my bed at night because I realize, oh, if I have my phone in bed at night, that means I'm gonna get triggered. I'd go, okay, well, if I feel stressed and I I need to be careful cuz maybe I'm going to want to watch porn. And it would be like, oh, what did I just do? Well, oh, I've just just eaten too much pasta bake for dinner, so now I need to make smaller portions of pasta next time. Uh, where am I? Oh, I know that I get triggered when I'm in the bathroom at the train station or I don't know, just loads of these different random things. And then I'd learn from that and then I'd remove that trigger and then I'd relapse again with a different trigger, learn from that, then relapse again with a different trigger and then relapse and then and then that was my life for, you know, 10 years just stuck in that cycle of going round and round and round, always feeling like I'd learned something from every relapse. But actually I was just a circle person completely lost and confused because back then I didn't know that my brain was wired in a certain way and that would actually lead to inevitable moments of compulsive desire and what I needed to do is connect to that desire, think it through in a rational way and change those neural pathways, which is what anyone can do. Uh, Mary, over to you. Any reflections?
>> Well, I was just thinking as you were talking about all the things that you would do. Okay. You think I'm gonna You're not in bed yet, right? But I'm going to put my phone away before I go to bed so I don't have my phone in bed so I don't get triggered when I'm in bed. Well, when you're thinking about putting your phone away, there's that's a trigger right there. I mean, you know what I mean? That's an opportunity to correct uh addicted neural pathways because because you're already planning in advance. Oh, oh, I I better put my phone away now or or tonight when I before I go to bed, I'm going to put my phone in the in the put in the failsafe locker, right? You know that right there and then that those are all addicted neural pathways that need to be treated, right? In order to really change the landscape of the addicted brain, right? So, it's all just um it's it's all it's all dancing around the problem, you know. It's it's Yeah. But, you know, they are trying to give good advice. Like you say, the guy has good intentions.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Just just don't understand how addiction works.
>> That's a good point. You know, because I think for me anyway, I never I never really understood what a compulsive desire really was. You know, I thought, "Oh, it's that moment where you've got this really, really strong urge and maybe you feel a bit weird in your stomach, in your chest. Uh, your head's all over the place and uh you feel like you're going to explode and you got all those thoughts like I need to release right now, like, oh my god." And it feels like it's building up. That was what I used to think was like compulsive desire, like an urge to watch porn. What I didn't realize back then is that I actually had compulsive desires like all the time. Like all those thoughts about, okay, what am I going to do later today? How do I stay busy? How am I going to stay occupied? How am I going to stay out of my flat again, which is actually talked about in this book. Um, you know, I didn't really realize that all of that was based in helplessness and were part of those neural pathways of compulsivity. That feeling that I was out of control and that I didn't trust myself. That's all part of the problem. But very few people really see that as the problem because they're being taught that's the thing to do to actually solve the problem. But it's not because they're misunderstanding what the problem is in the first place, which the problem is you're out of control. You don't know how to deal with your own mind. That's the problem. It's not to do with the porn. Porn's not hijacking your brain. It may it may feel like that, but that's not what that's not what's actually happening. It's your own thought patterns. And um, and and this is only because you've got books like this and people online telling you this misinformation. So it's not your fault, you know, it wasn't my fault. And if anything, you know, reading this book now with the education I've had, I feel really good. I feel really relieved cuz I'm like, "Holy [ __ ]." Like this is just more evidence to me that having relapsed a thousand plus times,
>> That wasn't to do with like my intrinsic sexual desires. I'd followed misinformation that made the problem like like just so much worse. I can't even describe how much worse this information made the problem. It's actually mental. Um, so I hopefully this, you know, can provide someone with hope who's maybe tried these these things that hasn't uh succeeded with overcoming this problem up until now.
>> Well, you're not going to avoid all the information. Well, hopefully the guys are starting to get the drift on, you know, social media is really not your friend. It's just such a waste of time in general, such a brainwashing thing. But you're not going to avoid all that information. Um, so and you reading this book again or whatever, you can you can take all the misinformation and you can now with your new, you know, education and your new knowledge of how to deal with compulsive desire, you can look at each one of those things objectively and rationally. And then that's just going to strengthen your neuropathways to freedom as well. You know, to look at it and go, okay, this here's the problem with this. And you know, and anytime we can get the guys to, you know, look at these seemingly, you know, insignificant thought patterns that are just like, "Oh, well, tonight I'm going to put my phone away, you know," and be able to see, okay, here's an opportunity to to make a change. Like I said, it's just really solidifying that that landscape of freedom, you know, it really is. And so, can't can't avoid the advice. It's really in your face. People are selling stuff, you know, selling advice. So, just use it to your advantage, you know, get the education, know what to look for.
>> Yeah.
>> Right.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Had a guy this week actually messaged me saying like, "When should I use facts one and fact two?" Cuz he just gone and got facts one and fact two right on the website. Um, and I said to him like, "Look, use it for literally any thought in relation to this
>> Right now."
>> Yeah. Yeah. Right now in this moment if you're thinking about, oh, when should I use it? That's still a thought that's compulsive. Um,
>> Is it?
>> Because our goal really for everyone should be to get to a position where this just isn't a problem. You know, it's it's not really a thing in your life. Okay, sure, you may still have some desires from time to time. I don't think that's really much of a problem if you know how to deal with them. Um, but we don't want to be trying to go around in circles trying to solve this problem, you know, once you know how to deal with that moment when you have the urges and you're thinking it through rationally and you make a choice, that's that that's that's the skill, that's the education you need and then you move on and you crack on with your life. Whereas this sort of advice in here is kind of this like lifelong battle or at least that's how it feels. You know, this idea that you're constantly going to be, you know, staying busy, distracting yourself.
>> And even the sort of ideas on relapse are terrible as well. You know, it says ease your way through the transition. Forgive yourself if you slip, but try to avoid binging and keep going. It's just like, okay, well, slipping doesn't happen. We've kind of done that to death on the podcast. We've talked about that a million times, but it's that kind of language which actually keeps people stuck because they think, oh, just some everlasting journey when it just doesn't have to be that way. You know, you can Yeah. Learn how to get the right education, then move on. Well, every Liberation Day call, excuse me, I tell the guys, you know, you already have an enormous benefit. And that benefit is you don't have to figure out how to solve this problem. You know, you think how much time and energy they spent, how am I going to solve this problem? How I'm going to how I got to stop doing this? Oh my god, how am I going to solve this problem? You know, till you're just ready to just scream, right? And you want to figure out how to solve this problem. You don't need to you don't need to think that anymore, right? Because you've got a solution. You've put in this this effort. You've put in this education. You've compiled your script. Now you know exactly what to do. It's a matter of installing it into your neural pathways. So just be so grateful already. Oh my god, I don't have to figure out how to solve this problem.
>> Exactly. Exactly.
>> Yeah. I remember remember when you first you first trained me on the Beyond Compulsion method.
>> I was still so deep in my nofap neural pathways and so deep in the addiction that I was kind of hanging on to that old way of thinking. And I don't think I ever told you, but the first like, I don't know, 30 days or so, I was still journaling every night, writing down like day one, day two, day three and like just kind of talking through how the day had been. Um, and it it took me to being in a really bad place with that approach to realizing, [ __ ] this is just reinforcing the addicting neural pathway. It's like,
>> If you're keeping a streak, well, that's going completely against what you really want, which is the mental freedom to stop thinking about the problem. But if you're thinking every day about the problem still by thinking what day you're on
>> Or you're still just wiring those old neural pathways like
>> What you want to be doing is getting into a position where you're thinking more like how Mary thinks, someone who really just doesn't think about watching porn at all because they're free from the problem. And and that is, you know, possible. And I guess I'm still working on that um for sure. There's still some old neural pathways to change in terms of just the way I think about certain things, maybe with sex. But am I in control 100% of the time? Yeah, absolutely. And and that's the position you'll be in once you have the education on, okay, well, what do I do in that moment I have a compulsive desire? And that's the only problem to solve. Um, another example here of, you know, kind of a testimony to people doing the kind of no fap approach, they've kind of just taken this from some kind of forum or community is someone given the advice of, "Never quit. I don't care if you reset, reset every other day for a whole month or two. That's the best you can do. You're now using porn half as often as you did. The most inspiring story I ever saw was of a guy who had a 15-day streak after 3 years of trying. As long as you keep coming back because you know it's important for your own good, you cannot fail. It is only a matter of time until you reset your neural pathways and break free." Which I just think is so so supportive and kind and it sounds nice and compassionate and nourishing, but it's just wrong. It's just not true. You know, that's not how it works because every time you relapse, you're strengthening addicting neural pathways, which creates a desire to engage again. That's that's why you stay stuck.
>> You know, there's nothing inspiring about being on a 15-day streak as your top streak for three years of trying. That's you you're just in an addiction. You're just failing over and over and over. That's not for you.
>> Well, nofap is the Weight Watchers of porn, right? It's like you're just gonna go on. You're gonna go on. You're gonna count. Now, you're counting counting. Well, they're counting points that they're assigning to food, you know, you're counting streaks. You're counting days, minutes, hours, whatever. And then it's like, and then you you binge, right? You binge on the food, while you go to the porn, you binge on the porn, whatever. It's like, and every time you do that, then you're intermittently reinforcing it. And then we have a obesity epidemic. Thank you, Weight Watchers, very much. And now we have a porn epidemic. Thank you. No fap, very much. You know, it's like that's that's what happens, you know, when you're that's when that's your focus, you know, and then you hang on as long as you can and then you and then you go ahead and cave.
>> It's just making it worse, right?
>> 100%. And it's really strange that they'd even use that quote uh that I just kind of mentioned there about, you know, the 15-day maximum streak because yes, there's even a part in this book where it says about intermittent use. It says the risks of very frequent porn use are familiar to many users. Less well-known is the fact that intermittent use, for example, two hours of porn binging followed by a few weeks of abstinence, rinse and repeat, can increase compulsion to use. And then they actually bring up some studies where they talk about the neuroplastic changes and how, you know, actually intermittent use is like one of the worst things you can do. Um, but this is what nofap streaks are. So, it's kind of like a whole book talking about streaks and that mentality. And then it even says, "Look, streaks making your problem worse." So, it's so contradictory as well.
>> Yeah. I'd like to have make a copy of that study for future reference, you know, because I've been talking intermittent reinforcement forever, but I don't have any scientific studies to back it because I I never really looked for them. I just saw the evidence that I have, you know, from mostly from all the work of, you know, working with food compulsion, right, to see it, you know, people getting in deeper and deeper and deeper. But that's nice that there's a study. We should, you know, take a screenshot and keep that on hand.
>> Yeah. Yeah. So, what they've done is they've taken examples from junk food use and drug use. And what they're saying is that it's because of the heightened intensity of the experience. So, you know, you go a certain amount of time without engaging in your compulsive behavior, then you do choose to engage. Then what I'm going to guess will be found in the studies is the dopamine will hit like a certain level that would have been higher than previous times because you've not done it for a long period of time, which is then going to strengthen those addiction neural pathways even more, lead to even more, you know, stronger cravings because it's kind of putting the thing on a even higher pedestal to the to the evolutionary sort of brain. Um, so yeah.
>> I mean, it's not rocket science, but I guess it is rocket neuroscience.
>> It's neuroscience. Yeah. Although
>> Makes perfect sense to me, but I I've just I've just watched it in action, you know.
>> Yeah.
>> So, yeah, for real.
>> Well, I've I've just experienced it. Like, that's how I know it's true because, as I say, I used to do the streaks and I'd always end up relapsing. And then the problem got worse and that's how I ended up
>> Looking at certain, you know, novel content which didn't align with my sexual taste and my head would just be completely uh a mess, really. Um, another sort of maybe this should be the final bit that we cover. Um, but just this part here again, it's it's so common to think in this way. This is the way I thought for so many years, but it's just so wrong. It says states of mind can also be triggers. Boredom, anxiety, stress, depression, loneliness, rejection, fatigue, frustration, anger, failure, feeling sorry for yourself, desire to reward yourself for an accomplishment, overconfidence, jealousy, and being hung over. It's almost like every emotion. It's like you're a human being. Yeah. You're going to feel emotions. It's like, what's that got to do with porn? And uh just before you go on to kind of explain this further, Mary, like the thing that really, really hit home for me with understanding that my triggers were not like like my problem wasn't to do with my emotions, was just working at the Samaritans, volunteering two and a half years to and I've I've said this so many times on the podcast, but just talking to incredibly depressed people, people with suicidal ideation, people in prison,
>> Talking to people who had been tortured, talking to
People who had been through the most horrific trauma you could even imagine, stuff that you wouldn't ever even hear about in like a book or TV or or films. Like honestly, some of the most I can't even explain how bad some of the stories were. Um, you know, and I was I was there for them. I was there listening on the phone to these people in their times of need and and so many of these people had these horrendous emotions going on in those moments but very, very few, I don't think I ever even spoke to anyone who had a problem with porn.
So it's like that for me, that experience of speaking to hundreds of people in my volunteering work, it helped me understand that we're all human. We all feel, you know, shame at times or we all feel lonely or stressed or tired or exhausted or angry at ourselves and we all have those experiences. But it doesn't mean that, you know, that that porn is like, you know, it's not got that much more to do with porn um than it does just being part of the human experience. And if we try and remove those emotions all the time, 100% of the time, then what we're going to do is the moment we have any of those emotions, we're going to a [ __ ] I can't deal with this. And you're going to end up back at porn if you don't know that these emotions are normal. They're part of the human experience. And you're going to have them a million times more if you are struggling with addiction because addiction is incredibly difficult to go through. Of course, it is.
Uh, Mary, anything else to add there? I know I've kind of talked quite a bit. Well, I guess we could, you know, they maybe they're going to start performing laboratories on people. You know, let's just remove any any, you know, emotional reaction to anything cuz it's it's so normal. And like all the first things that you listed, if you think about it, like the guys in their remember letters when they describe their experience of the reality of porn addiction, what it's really like to be stuck in a porn addiction and not being able to stop, they list all those negative emotions created by the porn addiction, not they're doing the porn because they have these emotions, which I think is a good time to um, you know, let people know to go and download our we've created a publication called the reality of porn addiction, which is a compilation of our um it's as a matter of fact, I've got it right here, you can see it. It's basically the reality of porn addiction. See that there? We go. Yes. Um, compilation of uh 30 letters from guys actually who've lived this experience, you know, and documenting to themselves, you know, um, what it is really like to to be stuck with this addiction. So, I think it's really valuable for anyone who, you know, could potentially get into the addiction, you know, younger guys, anyone, you know, parents of younger who have younger guys, just to, you know, give them this this, you know, really, really solid real, you know, documentation to be able to read. um that might, you know, as opposed to blocking them or, you know, removing triggers or whatever that can just let them understand what this what this really means. You decide to engage with this stuff, you know, cuz and you know, we talked about the porn ban over there in the UK. It's like they're not going to keep keep guys from getting to it, you know. So, let them know if this is if this is the choice you make, this is going to be your reality, you know. That's pretty inevitable, you know. It's not it's not like maybe, you know, like you might get addicted. It's like you do this. This is this is going to be your life. So, take it from from the mouths of the men that have actually lived it. And and that might affect your choice making process, you know, and maybe you can avoid it. And it also, I think, will really bring to light what's going on with this addiction and and maybe stop minimizing it. and or normalizing it, which is starting to happen now. I was just talking with one of the guys who said he was hearing some porn joke on some comedian was making a bunch of jokes about porn. It's a thing now, you know. So, >> yeah. >> Not a good thing, but it's a thing. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely get the remember letters booklet.
Um, I had a message from a client this week as well who said >> cuz there's like I don't know how many, maybe like 20 to 30 remember letters in there, right? >> 30 I think. Yeah, >> around 30. Yeah. Uh, I had a client this week say, "I've read two so far." Um, and I say he's a client actually, just like the guy I mentioned earlier in the podcast. This guy's an ex-client. So, how we work is we have like a monthly program. Now, anyone can join that literally just for one month, then leave. Um, that's cool. You know, you don't have to stay getting kind of the same education for months and months and months. Some people love the community and love reinforcing these new new pathways and then applying the methodology to different areas of their life. And that's great. But how we do things, it's like, okay, let's build a script. Let's get five facts in place. Every single time I have an urge, I'm going to use these five facts based on this really thorough, in-depth training. And then I'm going to think through the urge with this one A4 piece of paper. Think it through rationally. That's going to change my neural pathways. Now, that's available to anyone as soon as you, you know, join the program, right? Um, so this is a message from an ex-client. Um, he left the program ages ago, just like the other guy actually I spoke about earlier. Um, this guy is still on the straight line as we call it. So, it's probably been about six months now. Uh, we've done a podcast together actually as well, but he said he downloaded the remember letter booklet just as kind of like a reinforcement, which is a great idea. Um, because yeah, I mean, you want to remember this stuff when it's been like six months without porn. It becomes easier to forget quite how bad it all was. Uh, I've been there, you know, where you forget and you're like, "Oh my god, it was actually so so bad being in that porn addiction." It's very easy to get to that position when it's been a long while. Uh he said, "I've read two so far and honestly it's such a good idea putting this all together and providing it for free. I'd literally have bought this ebook. Lol. I think it will be very helpful. So powerful." So he said he'd even buy it. Now this is a free resource. Okay. So we'll put a link in the description. Go ahead and get it. Give it a read. I think it will give you a really good understanding of other people's experiences, help you understand you're not alone and also yeah, really start to see the reality of this problem because until I met you Mary >> I was glorifying and normalizing the whole sort of journey of doing nofap finding it kind of this fun little battle. Um and then obviously you kind of got me to >> kind of take it a bit more seriously but also understand okay, I've got a choice here and I don't have to stay stuck in the addiction and I can go beyond it, which I've not done right. >> Um, so yeah. Yeah, go get that if you want. Uh, thank you for listening. Hopefully it's been a good podcast episode. Hopefully it's been useful to somebody. Um, hopefully it inspires and provides some some sort of hope. And uh, you can see though, yeah, maybe the things I've tried up until now haven't worked for a reason. Maybe it's because they've kind of been conditioning and training you into a helpless way of thinking. And actually, if you change the way you think, Yeah. you know how to deal with urges, you can rewire your brain. >> Yeah. And we can get your brain off porn. >> Yeah. Exactly. >> Yeah. Right. That'd be good. That's it. That's it. All right. Cool. Thanks so much, Mary. I appreciate you being here. Thank you to listening or watching. And we'll see you in the next episode. Byebye.