Transcription
Good morning, everybody, and welcome to this episode of 30 Minutes to President's Club. My name is Aron Farrokh, and I'm here with my co-host, Nick Skielski. And today, folks, we have a guest as part of Discovery Month at 30 Minutes to President's Club.
As a reminder, the month of March 2025, we are bringing on the best discovery guests we have had of all time because we are actually launching a discovery course of our own, inspired by many of these legends. And today, it is the one thing. Person who has probably the greatest discovery book of all time in Gap Selling, which has sold over 100,000 copies. His name is Keenan. He's been a multiple-time guest. He has zero tolerance for nonsensical technical process, situational questions, and he is all about getting to problems quickly. Nick. Why should people listen?
So in this episode, we got into why and how you should never start a conversation with your prospect talking about your product. Instead, Keenan teaches us to get to the problems, the impact of those problems, the root causes of those problems, and helps us explore the problem with our prospect. Which sounds nice, but when you actually understand how that helps you inoculate against blockers, beat out the competition, win deals faster, and win bigger deals, you will understand the importance of that, and Keenan gives us a step-by-step guide on how to explore those problems with our prospects.
All right, Keenan, welcome back to the show. You remember we start every single episode with your top three actionable takeaways, so Let's get your three.
Number one: Know the problems your customer solves. In other words, you can't start a discovery call if you don't know what you're looking for. Think about a discovery call like a, um, things, a scavenger hunt. But I told you we're doing a scavenger hunt and I didn't give everybody that little piece of paper that says what you're looking for. That's a shit show. Everybody's running around and just grabbing whatever's in front of them. And you see that with salespeople, they don't know what they're looking for. And that's exactly what it looks like when they do a discovery. Like, where are you going with this?
Beautiful. What's number two?
Number two is never start a conversation with your product. If you're doing a discovery call and you're talking about your product in any way, shape, or form, you're not doing a discovery call. You're already selling. There should be almost literally zero selling in a discovery call. It is literally that discovery. You're trying to uncover what's going on. I mean, the way to do that is when you first get on the call, you simply ask the buyer, "Can you walk me through what prompted you to take this call today?" or "Can you help me understand what you were hoping to get out of this call today?" Now, you gotta be careful because there's a trap. Sometimes they'll say something like, "I just wanted to learn about what you do," and you can acknowledge that, you can say, "Absolutely, got it. But if you could help me understand what's going on in your org that makes you believe you may need a solution like that," that's how you can deflect back to, "Let me figure out what's going on there before I start telling you what I can do."
Very nice. Round us out. What's number three?
Number three is understand your customer's why. So at the end of this, when you do a discovery, you need to be able to get off that discovery and be able to explain why they need to buy, right? It's not, "Oh, I need a new system that shortens the cycle. I need sales training." It's something's going on inside the org that's broken. And if they don't fix that, it's broken thing, then it's creating some level of damage inside the org that they can't continue to experience. And you need to know what that is. That's why they need to change.
So Keenan, everyone is obsessed with the next hot discovery question, or the fanciest way to ask a discovery question. And the problem with that is questions are just a way to get someone to say the problem, but if you don't know what problem you're looking for in the first place, you're going to ask a question out of context, even if you phrased it perfectly. Let's start with the concept that you call the "Pick the Problem Identification Chart." So how do I start mapping out the problems that my product solves? Could you walk me through the "Pick"?
If you figure that the concept of selling is about solving problems and helping a buyer understand the problem, the size of the problem, the impact the problem is having on them, and what's causing the problem in the first place, then you have to have some semblance or understanding of what your product does to fix that problem. So you gotta know what you're looking for. Radiation. Chemo is a product that addresses the problem of somebody sick with cancer, a particular type of cancer, cancer in general, I guess, but it only works in certain situations. I'm not a doctor, so bear with me, but I'm pretty comfortable that the radiation only works when the tumor is under a certain size or a certain area and you hit it directly. Where chemo rips your whole body apart. So if you're going to be a great doctor, before you start recommending chemo versus extraction, you need to understand where the tumor is on the body, the type of tumor that you're dealing with, the size of the tumor, the edges of the tumor. So different tumors can be more spider-like versus more real clear boundaries. All of that dictates the solution. And so for a doctor, opens her mouth, she's like, "I need to understand as much as this is possible." So I'm asking questions, "Please do a CAT scan. Please do an MRI. Give me all the information I can possibly get." Then I will craft a solution. Well, that's the same thing with discovery and sales. Is we can't get that through our head. You need to start asking that buyer to give you as much visibility into their world as possible. I need to know what I'm looking for. My product or service only solves so many problems. So if I know that it only solves the problem around the size of something less than three millimeters and blah, blah, blah, I'm asking about that. So going back to sales, if I know my product or service solves a certain, a certain problem, I can know what that problem is. And I got to know what it looks like, and I got to know what's defined. I got to know how it's measured. I got to know what's causing it. And until I know that, having a discovery is useless. It's absolutely useless.
I think one of the hardest parts about this, Keenan, is when a buyer comes to us with their own opinion on their own diagnosis. And one of the things that, like, I know I've gotten pulled into as a salesperson before, is this, like, tug-of-war with discovery, where honestly, they don't know that I have expertise around this problem because most salespeople do not have expertise. And they start pushing for, "No, like, I know what I need, I want to see your solution." There's all sorts of, like, research out there that says buyers are now 99.9% finished with their buying journey by the time they talk to a salesperson. I don't know if I buy that. My question for you is, how do I reset those expectations or navigate that tug-of-war with somebody who has their own diagnosis and doesn't understand why I'm asking them all these questions in the first place?
I think even if they have their own diagnosis, I mean, this is the hard part about true discovery. There's no script. So as I'm thinking about your question, I keep thinking, well, it depends on the tone of the person. It depends on what question I asked them in the, to get us there, right? So I guess if I make this as hard as possible, I asked him, "Hey, could you tell me what prompted you to call?" And they're like, "Yeah, well, we want sales training. We've done our research and we just, we do Sandler and Challenger and we just want to know how you do it." And I'm like, "Okay, fantastic. I appreciate you got here. I mean, our approach is pretty unique. Could you take a second, help me like, what specifically made you pick or choose any one of these?" Now watch what I do here. "Are you having issues around win rates? Are you having issues with discovery? Are you having issues with losing to the status quo? Are you having issues with deals being pushed? Could you help me understand some of the root cause problems you're struggling with so I can get a better understanding of what's going on in your org?" So whenever someone comes in and they're like, "Hey, could you prescribe me some like industrial-strength aspirin?" You're asking them, "How did you even come to realize that you needed aspirin? Was it migraines? Was it this, this, or that?" Because it's your job as the doctor to challenge their diagnosis and understand and make sure that you're solving the right problem for them instead of taking their solution at face value.
Yes. So when you start asking those root cause questions, it makes it a little uncomfortable. Look, we can deal with people, the outliers, and there are some. There'd be someone that says, "Don't worry about it. Just tell me." Okay. If you get a person who you ask, "What was it? Was it teams losing to the status quo? Is your team struggling with discovery? Whatever deals getting pushed?" "It's don't worry about it." Then just don't sell to them. Or I don't care. I don't want to address that outlier because an edge case. It's a wedge case. It's not as much an edge case when people say, "I'd like to buy your product or service." But the minute you ask them about those root causes, 99% of the time, they will tell you which ones they're struggling with. Once that door is open, you're in. You said, "Is it you're struggling with win rates? Are your deals being pushed?" Things like that. The "Pick" flows as follows. So the Problem Identification Chart that you define in Gap Selling, it goes: Problem, Impact, Root Cause. A lot of people would say, "Low win rates is business impact." For you, it's not. It's a problem. So could you walk through the difference between win rates as a problem versus what's the impact of low win rates?
Low win rates can often lead to a sizable impact, but a good example might be, you only have a 10% win rate and let's say the value of the average opportunity could be high. You could be making quota. You could be making quota with low win rates, and so everybody seems happy. It's not the low win rate that's going to cause you to buy. It's when you stop missing quota, when you're not profitable, when there's something because of those low win rates that is crushing your business, is when you're going to say, "Okay, I need to fix these low win rates." I see organizations all the time with win rates below 20%. But the truth of the matter is, if you have low win rates below 20%, you are leaving tons of money on the table. When you have a broken sales organization, I don't care if you're at quota or not. That's my job to show you how that, that connection works. But if you have low win rates and you're missing quota by 30%, now you're going to buy. That is a much easier sale. When I know those win rates are only driving to a 30% quota and even worse, missing quota by 30%. But only 15% of your whole sales team is making quota. So now not only are you missing by 30%, you're this close to missing by 50%. Because if one of the handful of those people that are overcompensating and still only getting you to 70% of quota, you're about to crash and burn.
Let's go back to that example that you talked about. Somebody comes to you and they're like, "Hey, we're looking for some sales training. We've done a ton of research already. We're looking at Sandler, Challenger, and you." And you're saying, "Great! Can you tell me, is it this problem, this problem, this problem, or this problem? I want to know specifically." Let's say they respond and they're like, "Yeah, you know, our win rates aren't great, they're at 18% right now, and we know we can probably get that closer in like the 40% range. We'd love to hear how you can help." What words come out of your mouth next to progress the conversation from there?
I like how you ask that, because then we want to know how you can fix that, right? So now we're playing volleyball or ping pong, and I'm not giving it. I'm like, "Okay, only 18%? There's a lot of reasons why win rates can be that low. Could you take a second, walk me through how your team does discovery?" I shut up and listen. "Could you take a second to walk me through the type of information your team looks to gather at discovery?" "Hey, could if I want to go in and look at, I would do this in order, but I'd listen, but I'm already anticipating four or five or six questions that would allow me to dig in. I would say, if I took a look at your, um, key deals right now, three or four deals sitting in, um, the pipeline, what would I see for the key information your team has gathered?" I'm just going right back into their world, and I'm digging, and I'm digging, and I'm digging. Because I know that if they haven't uncovered a problem, I know if they don't understand the size of the problem, I know if they haven't got to a gap, I know that's why you lose. Now that I'm in the weeds with them, I'm winning. Like, every question I'm gonna ask is, "What are you doing? How are you doing? What are you doing? How are you doing?"
You prefaced your question with, "Okay, low win rates. There's a number of reasons why that could be happening." And I actually think that was a really important modifier because it shows that if you were just like, "Great, talk to me about the key information teams collecting on your deals," they're like, "Why the hell are you asking me that question? How is it related?" But you're showing them that, hey, there's multiple things that could be causing this problem that you have, which informs the reason that you're asking the question. And I think that's really, really smart because it prevents that, like, "Why did you ask me that in the first place?" Now, Keenan, you went from low win rates to, "All right, here are the three or four different things that could be causing low win rates." And my guess is that's so that you actually recommend the right solution eventually. When do you go up to the impact of challenging why does low win rates matter at all?
Again, you gotta really listen to the buyer. That's the hardest thing about Gap Selling. Because Gap Selling is so fluid and because it is so inclined on true, true diagnosis, not the word, it sounds freaking good, but literally at the essence of true diagnosis, it is customized every freaking time and you just got to really listen to your buyer. You got to understand the world you're playing in. But the average salesperson and the average sales org and even the average CRO doesn't see it that way. They see it as a prescriptive thing that you just follow some steps and it just works like that. Do you know what I'm saying? So it just drives me insane. Like, "Oh yeah, ITM already does that." No, they don't! And if I gave you one day of my time for free and I went through your entire sales log, I would show you how far off you are and how much money you're leaving on the table. It would shock you. Back to your point. I'm going to listen. But what I'm going to be listening for is one of two things: them starting to talk about how it affects them, or I'm going to get enough of the root causes answered so that I really believe and understand that that win rate is a result of these root causes. And then I'm just gonna naturally transition. I'm gonna say, "All right, so this makes more sense to me now because your team is doing these things, I see why your win rates are so low." And then I'm gonna ask, "Now, understanding these win rates are so low, can you walk me through the impact it's having? How many, um, deals do you do in a year? What is your average deal size?" Simply by asking those two questions, I don't even have to ask the one, "How's it impacting you?" I can literally say, "Okay, if you wouldn't mind, take a second. How many salespeople do you have?" "10." "And, uh, what's the, um, number of deals that they close in a year?" "They're going to say 10." Again, easy math. And if I do this backwards at 10% or 20%, that means it's 50, each one's getting. So now I get 50 deals each rep, that's 500 deals. And so then I say, "Okay, at those 500 deals, what's your average deal size?" "A hundred thousand." I've just backed myself into how much they're leaving on the table.
You work with all different types of organizations. Can my guess is that you've helped some clients with this stuff for who, who are not selling sales training and who were not doctors? Could you give an example of how you helped a sales org or the "Pick" that you built for a sales org, and some of the key pieces of information that you helped their team understand that they needed to know their way around in order to properly gap sell?
Okay. One of my favorite, because it's so accurate, but yet so unpredictable, is I worked with a major provider of medical devices. So CAT scans, MRIs, et cetera. When we were doing the "Pick," one of the things we discovered, and I'll just get right to it, is one of the major problems they solved for their buyers, particularly in this particular region, because it was Asia, and Australia, and New Zealand, was long wait times. Now, think about this. This is a Fortune 25, Fortune 40 company or something like that. And it never dawned on them that the business problem they solved was long wait times. They were so focused on things like all the technical stuff, right? Poor image quality, long scan times, uh, repeat scans, and doing all this stuff. And as I kept asking, kept asking why any of that mattered, it came down to that in these particular regions, the majority of people who own a CAT scan, hospital or clinic, get referrals. Because not everybody owns one. The referrals are based on their ability to get people in and out of the scan thing. So, an older equipment or bad equipment, because of re-scans or takes too long for radiologists to read, etc., etc., you can only get so many people through in a day. So then as you start scheduling, you have to say, "Oh, we have an appointment three weeks from now, five weeks from now, eight weeks from now." You start getting out past about 10 days, and people aren't happy. And potentially people have oncology issues. That length of scan time is not okay. And it also, you can start calculating how much money the clinic or the hospital is losing. Because if you're going to need four days, supposed to eight today, do the math, hundreds of thousands of dollars a year, if not millions of dollars a year, because they can't get people through. So that's a perfect example. So the minute we went to this and they started going out and starting having a conversation with the radiologist about, "Do me a favor, could you help me? What is your average wait time today?" And also, the minute they say, "More than two and a half, three weeks," they know that's a problem. Then they decide to ask the question, "The percentage of those that go out three weeks, how many actually show up?" Because the truth of it is, you'd have fallout. If someone's told it's going to be six weeks, they're running around looking for it somewhere else. Then we started to realize that when it got too long, doctors stopped referring. So then when doctors stopped referring, if it did start to shrink, they couldn't build it back up again because the referral base was losing. So all of this is a perfect example of finding a business problem that they solved, that they didn't see because they were too technically focused.
A lot of sellers think that technical problems are business problems. So for example, a technical problem could be that our machines keep shutting down or our machines can only throughput 10 people per hour or whatever it is, but that's actually a root cause of the business problem, right? So the business problem is we have a long wait time. A technical problem is you don't have enough slots in your machines or your machines don't have enough good throughput. And so you need to make sure that you find a business problem first, because if there's not a business problem, if the wait time is going super, super quickly, they never have a line or anything like that, it doesn't matter how many slots their machine has. Exactly. Because the root, the literally the technicalities don't matter. Cause there's not a problem to solve in the first place. Yes. It doesn't translate into a business problem. And most salespeople think, "Oh, you can only do six patients a day, or you can only do six X-ray throughput. Ours does 15. You should buy us." Well, if that current throughput doesn't create some external business problem that justifies spending the money on the 16th, no one gives a damn. That's what people don't get. Nobody cares.
How did you coach that sales org to navigate the conversation with the buyer to get there? Because my guess is if I just show up at the meeting and I start asking questions about wait times and scheduling, the buyer is going to be like, "What the hell? I thought you were selling these scanning machines. Why are you asking me about wait times?" So how did you coach those sellers to almost educate the buyer about like why they were asking that question in the first place or help the buyer see the connection?
You can always start with the root causes. So what would that sound like? "Could take a second to walk me through the throughput process of your patients in the current system you're on?" And they'll walk you through it and then you say, "Now, I'm roughly how many patients are you doing in a day?" And then, "What already now? I'm set up now because of this, are you experienced wait times?" "Yes." You might have asked, "How long those wait times are?" "Eight weeks." "Oh, I can even go deeper. So from that, what is your current rescan?" "So we can either the image quality wasn't good enough for the patient moved or whatever, you know what I'm saying? 20%." So for every five, you've got to do another one. Do you put that person at the end of the eight weeks? So do you slide them in first? When we slide them in, part of the waitlist is we always have two slots a day for rescans, et cetera. Where those should be able to be filled with new patients, we have to leave them open for the rescans. I'm making this up, but you get my point. 100%. Start with the root cause and see if they lead to that business problem.
I could see if I'm a great manufacturing leader, it's really helpful for me to understand this is my wait time. This is going to have me impact the amount of patients that I can get through, which is my impacting my top line, bottom line, what have you. If I'm like an at-the-line champion, I honestly like might not care about my overall business's ability to throughput clients quick enough. And so I'm curious, how does Gap Selling change or does Gap Selling change based on whether you're talking to a director versus a C-suite type of person?
It does a little bit. I want you to think concentric circles, but the overlap of the concentric circle needs to be pushed. So it's a lot more overlapped than they realize. In this case, you're talking to a radiographer, right? The radiographer is kind of want stuff like it's gonna make their life easier. It's going to be very technical stuff. And, and I'm making up now cause I haven't got that deep with them. I'm just remembering some conversations, but it might be something as simple as, um, they're having high turnover because some of the machines in the arms are structured in a way that it creates carpal tunnel. That was work with them. A lot of them complained that they have radiologists call in sick or hurt or be out for a little while because this constant motion, it's a heavy machine and blah, blah, blah. So they're going to want to focus on stuff like that. They might want to focus on how quickly the image could get to the radiographer. And so you want to acknowledge that stuff, but the key point is you've got to help them see that, okay, that's frustrating you, but that because of all that time wasted, what is the bigger picture? And you've got to get them to go to that bigger picture as well. And the reason being, and people don't like to hear this, is that person who's making that product decision, 99% of the time is not going to be the radiologist. And the director of the department or the CRO of the hospital, CEO of the hospital, whatever, is not going to spend $250,000, $300,000, $400,000 on a new machine because, "Oh, your poor wrist hurts." So you have to, you have to weave through and acknowledge where they are, but helpfully get them to see that the things they don't like, that they want to fix, also, or should have larger downstream effects as well. So it can be a win-win. But I literally had an enablement person after we scoped out the size of the problem, ask us about our online training. And we said, "Okay," and we threw it in for free. So I didn't even understand why she cared, but she said, "Well, how well does your online training integrate with our existing LMS? That's my biggest question on my key decision criteria." Now I want it to explode. I wanted to call the CRO and say, "Fire this person." The fact that this is how she's making a decision. So if I give you a system that integrates with your LMS, but it can't solve any of the larger business problems you have, that's going to be okay. And so I had to walk this woman back and I said, "Okay, so once this is integrated, what's your main driver for why you want this to connect?" "Well, I just don't want them logging into two separate things." "Okay. That's fair. And why don't you want them logging into two separate things?" "Well, then they won't take the training." And I'm like, "Ah, so your concern is getting them to take the training. Can I guess the reason they're afraid they won't take the training is then they won't actually adopt it and then it's a waste?" Because yes, I'm like, "Okay, I got that. But that is a long stretch from, because we integrate, they're going to actually take this training." And then I was able to walk her through how Gap Selling approach and method and all of our retention patches, everything guarantees reinforcement and guarantees their awareness and gives them visibility into how well they're doing. So I was able to offset and get her off that. You have to understand the connective tissue.
So I want to ask you about that because it sounds to me like you had someone that was willing to go on that journey with you to change their mind. The reality is, is like, there are a lot of prospects out there, a lot of stakeholders that we talk to that are stubborn, that are kind of dumb, and then end up being blockers for us. And it doesn't matter how much you pull them, if it doesn't integrate with the LMS, they're like, "Sorry, I don't want to do it." How do you navigate a sale when you have a blocker like that, Keenan?
Two ways. And you might not know what I'm going to say here, Nick. But I've seen this a lot too. When people give examples like you just gave and say, "There's a lot of blockers like that," 99% of the time, they got to blocking because the salesperson asked such shitty questions or didn't know how to navigate it, that they created that blocker themselves. But when they start a blocker, and I'm using me as the example, when I get those blockers, I'll do exactly what I just said. "Mary, could you help me understand why that connection is so important, particularly because you told me that win rates is such an issue? I'm having a hard time understanding how this is such a critical decision criteria piece, knowing win rates is what we're trying to solve." So now I've got to get her to walk through that. Now, what we said before, the one or two edge people is like, "None of your business. Don't work with them." Literally, let them be somebody else's problem. Okay. Eight out of 10, nine out of 10, when you ask the question, the way I asked it, or you just help them ask to help you understand why that feature is so important to them, understanding what we're trying to accomplish and the problems you're having, they will give you an answer. Most people are decent people. The reason salespeople get into the situations you've just described is because they did it themselves, man.
Well, I can totally see somebody getting sucked into losing to that blocker who sales training doesn't integrate with their LMS. If the only thing that we've gotten from the prospect is, "We need sales training." Great. We're going to tell you about how we have amazing sales training. We're going to take you through all the things we do, and we've got online training. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And then at the end, when it doesn't integrate, the reason that you were able to overcome that sales cycle objection of, "It doesn't integrate with the LMS," is because you tied to something that was way more important than needing sales training or integration with an LMS. But you don't get there. So it's actually the root cause of that problem is failure to get to the impact.
A hundred percent. I talk about it in my book. I don't know if you guys remember that story about the people that said, "You have to be able to buy season tickets and pick your own seat every time." And my client didn't have that feature. We did two things. We said, "First, wait, how many season ticket holders do you have?" And they, I think they had like 1200. It was how many tickets do you sell in a year? It was like 150, 200,000. So first off, it was the slightest group of people in the big picture. And then, then we were able to go back and say, "But okay, also understanding that you told us that was most important was getting first-time ticket buyers to buy again. And you told us that you needed a better way to manage capital campaign because you were like a million dollars short and you had to have that capital campaign by X." So all we had to do was say, "Could you help us understand why that feature is so important to you based on what you're trying to accomplish?" The minute we did that, they just went, "Oh, yeah, okay. It'd be nice to have." And we said, "Well, you can have season ticket holders, they can buy it. They just can't pick the seat every show. They get to pick one per season." Like, "All right, good enough." Next up. It was gone. It was gone. The minute you reset them.
Keenan, we're running out of time. We got to move to the final question, which is, we've talked about a bunch of good habits salespeople need to adopt. Now I'm going to flip that on its head and ask you about one bad habit. So the last question is, what is one bad habit that you see most salespeople exhibiting that you think they need to break because it is hurting them more than it helps?
Focusing on their product. Thinking the sale is about their product. End of discussion. I'll say it every day till I die.
Amazing. Keenan, thank you for joining us. Everybody stick around for a 60-second recap coming up soon.
Alrighty, Nick, time for a 2x2 recap from this episode with Keenan. What do you have for your two?
So my first one is, sometimes when we ask our prospect what prompted them to hop on the call with us, they'll say, "Oh yeah, you know, I was looking at your product and I thought it might be nice to learn about." Or they'll say something like, "Yeah, we're looking for a more efficient billing system." And that can be a trap because now they are basically asking us to talk about our product, which we learned from Keenan you should not start the conversation with. So my first takeaway would be Keenan helps us deflect and say something like, "Cool, I can tell you about that. But could you talk to me about what's going on in your organization that made you think that this was worth a look in the first place?" And that's how you can turn it around and understand their situation and problem without falling into that trap of talking about the product.
Number two was, you can inoculate against technical blockers. So Keenan gave that example of the person who wanted his online training to integrate with their LMS, and that was on her must-have list. You can inoculate against losing deals on technical incompatibilities when you get to the big impact. Keenan was able to reframe that conversation by saying, "Okay, we can talk about that, but the big problem I heard is win rates." And if you can orient around the big problem, you are able to reduce the importance of small technical details that might otherwise kill your deal.
Number three, a team that doesn't set an agenda on their discovery call, that's not a problem. That's a root cause. The problem is your win rates are low, but that's not business impact. Business impact is what happens because of those low win rates. Are you missing a revenue target? Are you not hitting quota? Are you losing your best reps?
And then lastly, number four, once you get to the problem of low win rates, then you can start investigating the root cause. Is it because they're not setting agendas? What information are your sellers asking in the first five minutes of the call? And then once you know that you have the root cause pinned down, then you can say like, "Okay, let's make sure that before I dive into solutions on solving win rates, like let's actually figure out like the impact that's happening or why solving win rates even matters in the first place." And then you can roll it all together by saying, "Your problem is this. The impact is this. The root cause is this. And here's how I'm going to solve it."
Alrighty, Nick. How can people help us out here? We've had Keenan on the show a couple of times dropping some freaking discovery gold. I'll never forget. We did an episode where I had a discovery call that kind of went off the rails. I didn't do a great job. And I came to Keenan to workshop, like, what I could have done differently. I think we might have titled that episode, "Nick Gets a Padlin," if I'm not mistaken. But I would recommend going back. We've got links to all of the past Keenan appearances on 30MPC in the show notes of this episode. If you liked Keenan's style and some of his teachings, I recommend going back and giving some of those a listen. Thanks for joining us, and we'll see you next week on the show.