How To Crush The Limitations Of Your Mind - Dr Joe Dispenza (4K)

Imagine if we had to do the podcast like this. I was going to say, just with an arm. Is that you over there? Just an arm in the way of us. Is that you, Chris? How do you describe what you do?

Um, I think we, uh, teach people the neuroscience and the biology of change. And the principle is just really simple: um, if you change, your life changes. And nothing changes in our life until we change. So, one of the things that people come up against is, "Why is it so hard to change?" So we've kind of come down through a lot of research, uh, a simple formula to help people to make transformations first in themselves and then, and then their lives.

And so we give people knowledge and information, and we use science as that language that to to meet information. And we combine, uh, quantum physics with neuroscience and neuroendocrinology and psychoneuroimmunology and epigenetics and electromagnetism. And help people understand information that's philosophical, that's theoretical. And when you learn information, you make new connections in your brain. That's what learning is. Uh, but if you don't review it, and if you don't repeat it, you don't think about it, those circuits prune apart within hours or days.

So we run these courses, these events that are typically seven days, where it's fully immersing yourself in in this process of transformation. Give people the information, it's philosophical, it's theoretical. Have them understand it. They have to be present with it. But now turn to someone and teach it back to them what you've learned. Nerve cells that fire together, wire together. So then, in time, you begin to install the neurological hardware in your brain in preparation for the experience. And the more you understand what you're doing, the more you understand why you're doing it, the how gets easier because you can assign meaning to the task and get a greater outcome. If you can't explain it, it's not wired in your brain, right? So it's so much easier to forget the information than to remember it. And it just takes repetition and attention, um, to get the circuitry in place.

And once you understand the what and the why, we set up the conditions in the environment to give people the proper instruction. And when you apply it, when you personalize it, when you demonstrate it, when you initiate that knowledge, and you get your behaviors to match your intentions, and you get your actions equal to your thoughts, you get your mind and body working together. You have an experience. Now, experience really enriches circuitry in the brain. And when those neurons organize into networks even further, the brain makes a chemical, and that's called a feeling or an emotion. So now, when you feel abundant, when you feel successful, you feel unlimited, you feel whole, um, the experience is teaching the body chemically to understand what the mind has intellectually understood. So now the information is not in the brain anymore. The information is now in the body, and the person is embodying the truth of that philosophy, right? And somehow there's biological changes that take place as a result of it.

The question is, okay, if you've done it once, you should be able to repeat the experience. And so if people go through a seven-day immersion and they keep repeating the experience, they begin to neurochemically condition their mind and body to begin to work together. And when you've done something so many times that your body now knows how to do it better than your conscious mind, now it's innate in you. You've become the knowledge. It's a subconscious program. It's, it's who you are. So we teach people to go from that kind of philosophical, theoretical, um, knowledge to the application, uh, to initiate it, to to ultimately get wise about why they're doing it. And, and so we study the neuroscience and biology, and we work with, uh, University of California, San Diego, and we publish papers, and we do extensive research, really to demystify the process. Why is it so hard to make genuine change happen in our lives? People want to change, want to do different things. Why is it so hard?

Um, um, I think the biggest, uh, difficulty in change is is making a different choice. Now, think about the New Year's resolutions. Everybody's very clear about what their intention is, what they want, what whatever that is. But if you keep making the same choices, you're going to keep doing the same things. You're going to keep creating the same experiences. You're going to keep feeling the same emotions. And your biology and your neurocircuitry, your neurochemistry, and your hormones, and even your gene expression is going to stay the same because you're the same. But keep thinking the same way, and keep acting the same way, keep feeling the same way, and do it over and over again. Those circuits in the brain ultimately become hardwired. And the emotions that are a response to someone or something, even your own thoughts, get conditioned subconsciously as a program into the body. So 95% of who we are by the middle of our life is an unconscious set of thoughts, behaviors, and emotions that are automatically programmed into our biology.

So, so the first step to change is not thinking positively. You've got to become conscious of those unconscious thoughts. When you decide to make a different choice, and it doesn't feel familiar, the thought that says, "Start tomorrow. It's too hard." Just do it anyway. You know, go ahead, make that choice. Do the same thing. You're not good enough. You'll never change. You're too much like your parents. You know, "I failed last time." Um, you have to be able to become so conscious of those unconscious thoughts that you would never go unconscious to that thought ever again. And that's change. You'd have to catch yourself how you speak and how you act. If you, if you want to be happy, and you're blaming, and you're complaining, and you're feeling sorry for yourself, and, and, and you're judging everyone, um, those behaviors are not going to make you happy. They're actually going to make you unhappy. So you've got to become so conscious of those unconscious habituations that you wouldn't go unconscious and behave that way.

And then, of course, you've got to look at those emotions that are pretty much chemical residue from the past, um, and decide, "Does this lack? Does this suffering? Does this pain belong in my future?" And, uh, that process of becoming so conscious that we don't go unconscious is the process of change. And how many times do we have to forget until we stop forgetting and start remembering? That's the moment of change. So the hard part about change is when you decide to make a different choice, get ready. It's going to feel uncomfortable. There's going to be uncertainty. You're not going to be able to predict the next moment. It's going to feel unfamiliar. So if the body has been conditioned to be the mind, then the servant is the master. So the body starts sending information back to the brain to think a certain thought so that you make the same choice, that you do the same thing, you create comfort, this is familiar, get back to the same feeling of suffering. Oh, that feels so much better than the uncertainty of the unknown. Uh, so, so going from the old self to the new self and crossing that river, literally, is a neurological, it's a biological, it's a chemical, it's a hormonal, it's a genetic death of the old self. That's the phoenix lighting itself on fire. And, and most people would rather cling, uh, to that familiar place than than take a chance and possibility that that void, that vacuum, actually is the perfect place to create.

And we discovered this, that that the brain changes the most when you get to that point where you think you can't go any further and you want to quit. If you go past that point, that is the unknown. Now, the unknown has always been wired in our biology. The uncertainty of the unknown is always a scary place. Is that a tiger in the bushes, or is that just a shadow? You know? So, so the unknown becomes a very scary place when we're living in survival. So, uh, most people never take that chance and possibility. But if a person's actually taught how to execute in the unknown, and there's nothing scary there, and they can apply the same principle and say, "What thoughts do I want to fire and wire in my brain?" Um, and a belief is just a thought you keep thinking over and over again. So what is the voice in my head that I want to program my brain into thinking and believing? What behaviors am I going to demonstrate in my life? If I'm going to not behave this way around this person or around the circumstance, and I want to behave a different way, let me rehearse in my mind. Close my eyes and get really clear on how I'm going to respond or behave in this circumstance. And the act of mental rehearsal literally grows circuits in the brain. Now your brain's looking like you've already done it. Your, your, your brain is no longer a record of the past. It's being, it's being conditioned and mapped into the future. So now you have the circuitry in place. So if you keep practicing that, the hardware becomes more automatic. It becomes more of a software program, and you start behaving that way.

And then the biggest challenge then is, okay, if I'm not going to feel suffering, and I'm not going to feel pain, and I'm not going to feel judgment, but I want to feel grateful for my life. Can I teach my body emotionally what my future will feel like before it happens? So once you start conditioning your body to an elevated emotion, we tend to see that the heart-centered emotions tend to be the ones that produce the most dramatic changes in our biology. And the body is so objective, it really doesn't know the difference between the real-life experience that's creating that emotion and the emotion that you're creating by thought alone. Um, then the body starts getting lifted, uh, in a lot of ways. So keep thinking differently, keep acting differently, keep feeling differently. Uh, that's your personality. Then your personal reality begins to change. And, and, and people who cross that river, uh, there's new opportunities, there's new experiences, um, there's new events that take place in their life. So that's what we teach.

So, is the issue that people, when they want change, they don't change deeply enough? They're just looking at, well, if I do this particular new physical habit, that will be able to change things. But the underlying currents that are driving that behavior are always going to come in and then take over, despite the fact that you don't eat sugar more, or you want to be more polite with your partner, or you want to be more, it's too surface-level with a lot of the change that tries to be attempted.

Yeah, I think, uh, I think that people, um, unfortunately, uh, have to get knocked to our lowest level sometimes, you know, um, where you're no longer inside the jar. When you're inside the jar, you can't read the label. You, you've got to get so uncomfortable that you could actually see yourself, right? And so that tragedy, that that that crisis, that disease, the diagnosis, the loss, it's got to be so severe that you finally look at yourself and say, "Maybe it's me. Oh my God, could it possibly be me?" But you're looking at yourself kind of through the eyes of someone else because you don't feel like you in that moment. You're someone comfortable that you can see yourself. That that concept is called metacognition, right? So, so a lot of times people wait for that crisis or the diagnosis or the betrayal to go, "Oh my God, I, I, I got to really change because I'm really unhappy, or I can't blame that person, or my past, or my circumstance, because I, nothing's working here. I, I got to really start making those changes." So, so when they see themselves separate from their program, they're becoming conscious of their unconscious self. Um, that is the first step to change.

Now, I say you can learn and change in a state of pain and suffering, which most people like to do, or you can learn and change in a state of joy and inspiration, right? So could you be defined by the vision of the future? And could you get up from your, your morning practice, actually believing in your future more than you're believing in your past? So from that elevated state, where you combine a clear intention with an elevated emotion, from an elevated state, instead of a self-limiting state, you can be conscious of that old self as well. And so I think, I think God, what a great time in history to be alive because this is a time in history where it's not enough to know. This is really a time in history to know how. And I, I've been at this long enough, Chris, to know that 20 years ago, people didn't hear it like they hear it now. The information is readily available, and people are realizing, "God, if I, if I have this dream, if I have this goal, how bad do I want it?" And if they really want it, um, and we've all done this. You sit down and you say, "What would it be like to be super healthy, super wealthy, super in love, super mystical, you know, transcendental, whatever it is?" Like, you ask that question, and your brain gets really creative. It starts combining circuits in new ways, and you start getting this vision of the future, this possibility that you actually put yourself in this future reality. It becomes so real that you start to feel the emotion as if you were actually there.

And so that moment when you come out of your resting state, the stronger the emotion you feel when you hold that vision, the more you'll remember that vision. That's that's creating a memory. So the person comes out of a resting state and they make a decision with such firm intention that the amplitude of that decision carries a level of energy that causes their body to respond to their mind. That their choice that they're making in that moment becomes a moment in time that they would never forget. They'll say to you, "I remember the moment I made up my mind to change. I was in this place, I was with these people, I was this is this particular time." That that the event is a long-term memory. And they've come out of the resting state. And we could say then they're giving their body a taste of the future emotionally. And somehow they begin to embody whatever that future is. And now they begin to move in a different direction. And so they start trusting in their future more because they feel like they're connected to it. So then the person who's really interested in making a change would have to come to that same state again in order to produce the same effect. If they say, "I don't feel like it," or "I want to be nicer," or whatever, and it's, there's nothing really at stake, you know, intention is really meaning. You've got to have a meaning behind what you're doing. So people who, who now say, "I want a better life. I can't have a better life unless I change." Uh, and when I change, my life will change. Now you're not so interested in what's happening out there. You're more interested in what's going on inside of you to go from any state that we're in now to a new state. That transformation process requires stepping from known to unknown.

Yeah, how can people get more comfortable with stepping into the unknown? And why is it such a scary place?

Ah, let's see if I can explain this on two levels. Um, the brain is a record of the past. Uh, the brain is a reflection of everything in your environment that's known to you. It's an artifact. It's a repository of everything you've learned and experienced in your life. It's a memory bank. And so people wake up in the morning, and every person, every object, every thing, every place, every experience that they've had in their life is mapped neurologically in their brain. So they wake up in the morning, and the first thing they do is they think about those problems. And those problems are memories that are really tattooed in the recesses of their gray matter. And the moment they start remembering the problem, they start remembering the past. They're, they're thinking in the past. Every one of those experiences or problems has an emotion associated to them. So the moment they think of the past, and they start feeling unhappy or anxious, now their body's in the past. Thoughts are the language of the brain. Feelings are the language of the body. Thought and feeling, an image and emotion, a stimulus and response. And you're conditioning the body emotionally into the familiar past. And the body is so objective, as I said, doesn't know the difference between the real-life experience and the one that you're imagining. The body's actually believing it's living in the environment where that problem is actually existing in the present moment. So that becomes the familiar past. And we call that the known.

Then people get up, and then they rush through a series of automatic, routine behaviors. They're on autopilot because they do the same thing today as they did yesterday. And habit is a redundant set of automatic, unconscious thoughts, behaviors, and emotions that's acquired through repetition. So now the person is in habituation, a program. And their body's dragging them into the same predictable future, future based on what they did in their past. In other words, we could take up their yesterday and set it on their tomorrow, and there's going to be a lot of predictability. So if you can predict something, then that's the known, too. So the familiar past is the known. The predictable future is the known. There's only one place left where the unknown exists, and that's the sweet spot of the generous present moment.

And so we teach people how to master the moment, how to master their attention. And where you place your attention is where you your energy. And, and paying attention is being present. And you know when someone's paying attention to you because, uh, they're present with you. And you know when they're present with you because they're paying attention to you. Well, it's the exact same thing. So you're sitting with your eyes closed, and you start thinking, "How long is this going to go? Um, I got a lot of things to do. God, I got to think about that place I got to go to and meet that person. I got another meeting over there." And now your brain is actually defaulting and going to that predictable future. We discovered that your, you're not a bad meditator, actually at all. This is actually how you do meditate. You become conscious that you've gone unconscious in your predictable future, and you return your attention back to the present moment. That's a victory. Okay?

So then your body says, "Hey, it's been, um, about an hour. You usually get pretty judgmental around this time. You get in traffic, you get really angry." And you're sitting in a meditation, and all of a sudden you start feeling aroused and impatient and frustrated. And people, most people think, "Oh, well, that means I can't meditate." Well, actually, your body's used to being stimulated from something outside of itself. You settle the body back down into the present moment, and you tell it, "It's no longer the mind. You're the mind." Do this enough times and train the body to be in the present moment, to be in the unknown. They come a moment where the body is no longer the mind. The servant's no longer the master. You're the mind. And when that occurs, there's this tremendous liberation of energy that takes place in the body. The body's going from particle to wave. It's going from matter to energy. The body is being freed from the chains of the past or the predictable future. And we discover energy actually kind of moves right into a person's heart, and they start feeling really grateful to be in the present moment instead of being in the unknown and trying to predict the next moment.

So it's a practice. And if you practice it on a regular basis, we discovered you can get really good at being in the unknown. And going against thousands of years of programming that says the unknown is a dangerous and a scary place. There's better chances of survival if you run from the unknown, then you embrace it. So you put the person, they keep relaxing into the unknown. And sooner or later, they realize nothing bad is happening in the unknown, and they just start relaxing and expanding. And there's a, just a host of biological changes that begin to take place. So I think I think you can make that a skill or a habit.

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How do people become addicted to their own thoughts? It seems like there is this degree of familiarity with what we're used to here. But there would be a question if these thoughts are negative, if they're negative emotions, if they're tormenting me, if they're making me feel bad, why would I continue to just be my own torturer, yeah, 24 hours a day?

Well, an addiction is something that you think you can't stop. An addiction is when you know something is not good for you, and you tend to choose and do it anyway, right? So it turns out that living in stress is living in survival. And when you perceive a threat or a danger, or you perceive something that's potentially going to get worse in your life, or, um, you can't control or predict something in your life, you switch on that primitive nervous system called the fight-or-flight nervous system. And it's secreting a lot of chemicals to get you awake. It's getting you ready. It's, it's wanting you to perform. And but if it gets, there's too much, uh, the rush of that adrenaline is, uh, is like a, a surge of energy. It's an arousal. And people get addicted to that rush of energy. So they use the problems, they use the conditions, the stories of the past in their life to reaffirm their addiction to that emotion. So, so they need the bad job, they need the bad relationship, they need the challenging conditions in their life. Could it make it makes feel something, right?

So, okay, so when you're living in stress, stress is when your brain and body, you're knocked out of homeostasis. Stress is when your brain, body, you're knocked out of balance. So the moment you react to someone or something in your life, and you switch on that system of arousal, and it's an emergency system, your body moves completely out of balance. It's mobilizing all of its energy for some threat, real or imagined. Okay, the problem with human beings is for a zebra or for a gazelle, when if it outruns the lion, it goes back to grazing. The event is over, and the stress is short-term. But if it's a constant exposure to stressors in your life, what becomes once was maladaptive, adaptive, becomes very maladaptive. Because when you turn on that stress response, and you can't turn it off, now you're headed for disease because your body's constantly out of homeostasis, imbalance.

So, okay, so the event is over, and someone betrayed you, or you lost your job, or you got fired, and you can't stop thinking about it. So every time you think about that problem, you're turning on the stress response just by thought alone. So if the hormones of stress are addictive, and you can turn on the stress response just by thought alone, you could become addicted to your own thoughts. And if you, and if you have to keep talking about those problems to get the rush of adrenaline, your thoughts can knock you out of balance as well. And it's a scientific fact that the long-term effects of the hormones of stress push the genetic buttons that create disease. Which means your thoughts could literally make you sick. So then, if your thoughts can make you sick, the, the fundamental question is, can your thoughts make you well? And that's what we're, you know, interested in uncovering.

Talk to me about stepping into that loop, that addictive loop of the negative thoughts.

Um, yes. So every time you have a thought, you make a chemical. And if you have a, a happy thought, or think of something happy, you turn on a set of neurological networks in your brain that fire in a sequence, a pattern, a combination that signals another part of the brain. The brain makes another chemical that's a, a chemical messenger that makes you feel a certain way as you secrete a certain hormone. Okay? The moment you start to feel happy, the moment you start to feel joyful, your, your brain is checking in with your body, saying, "Chris, you're feeling pretty joyful." And so then the chemistry influences you to think more wonderful thoughts. And so the cycle of thinking and feeling, and feeling and thinking, creates what we call a state of being. Okay? But you could have thoughts that make you feel guilty. And you can turn on a different set of circuits in your brain that signal a different batch of neuropeptides that signal a different hormonal center to make you feel differently. The moment you feel miserable, the moment you feel victimized, the moment you feel suffering, the more, the moment you feel pain, and you can't think greater than how you feel, the brain's checking with the body and saying, "You're really miserable." And it generates more corresponding thoughts equal to that feeling. So it's thinking and feeling, and feeling and thinking. This loop of thinking and feeling, and feeling and thinking, creates a state of being. And again, the thought and the feeling, the image and the emotion, the stimulus and response is making the body become conditioned subconsciously into the past. And so now the person has to feel that same emotion to reaffirm their identity. So that becomes their state of being. And now they behave as if they're in their past, and they think as if they're in their past.

What ways do our memories lie to us?

Wow. Um, well, everybody has a story, right? And, and the way we make memories is from emotions. So, so if you have an event in your life that's highly traumatic, just as an example, the moment you perceive that event in your life through your senses, the, the chemical information that's coming back as information to your body is telling you to be altered. So once you begin to change your internal state, the greater the change in your internal state from its normal continuity, the more the brain freezes a frame and takes a snapshot. And that's called the long-term memory. So then the person thinks neurologically within the circuitry of that experience, and they feel within the boundaries of the emotions of that experience. Every time they review the event in their mind, they're producing the same chemistry in their brain and body as if the event was occurring. So again, the body's reliving the trauma 50 to 100 times in the day. And now the, the trauma is no longer in the brain. The trauma is emotionally conditioned in the body, right?

So if you say to the person, "Why are you so bitter? Uh, why are you so sad? Why are you so unhappy?" They'll say, "I am this way because of this event that happened to me 10 years ago." Which what they're really saying is, "After that event, I changed, and I have not been able to change since this event." Well, the research on memory says that if you ask that person that story of the actual account, 50% of that story is no longer the truth. In other words, they're embellishing the story so they can excuse themselves. They're making it worse. They're making the conditions worse. They're telling the story, and they're embellishing it to some degree to excuse themselves from changing, right? So if 50% of that story isn't even the truth, they're reliving a miserable life they never even had, to reaffirm their addiction to that emotional state.

So, so here, here's the crazy part. Because we work with, we work with, uh, veterans and and Navy Seals and, and, uh, can you then forget about the memory and just overcome the emotion? Because the memory without the emotional charge is called wisdom. And now you no longer belong to the past. You're ready to create a new future. And so the stories we tell about our past are only stories we tell when we feel those emotions. We would never tell that story when we feel a different emotion. Why? Because, because a person's telling the feeling that emotion, and that emotion is the record of the memory chemically. So they, they're telling the story because they can't think greater than that feeling. Feelings have become the means of thinking. But what if you told a different story? And that's exactly what we teach people to do. Stop romancing your past. Start romancing your future. Stop telling the story of your past. Start telling the story of your future. Stop believing in your past. Start believing in a new future. And, and that process is an unlearning and a relearning process. It's literally breaking the habit of being yourself and reinventing a new self. It's, it's pruning synaptic connections, it's sprouting new connections, it's unfired, it's unwiring, it's re-wiring, it's deprogramming, it's reprogramming, it's losing your mind and creating a new one.

It's immersive experience. When we do our week-long events, is we take the person right to that point of that emotion where they say, uh, um, "I got to go. Uh, this is too uncomfortable." And we, we don't want them to white-knuckle it there. We give them something to do. And if they practice that formula and they keep lowering the volume to that emotion, sooner or later, the body becomes liberated. They're stepping out into the unknown. And we've seen people who have had the most brutal, the most horrific, the most difficult path, uh, uh, look back at their past and say, "I would, I would never want to change one thing in my past because it got me to this moment." And that's the moment the past no longer exists. They look at their betrayers, they look at their abusers, and they see the, they see the purposeful good and the meaning behind all of that that had to happen because it would have never brought them to this moment. And I, I think that's the moment the past no longer exists.

What is one of your favorite stories of somebody who's been locked into one of these loops for a little while?

Um, gosh, there's, there's so many of them. Um, we just had a, a woman on the stage, uh, uh, in Dallas. And, um, I watched this woman come to the event months before. This event in Dallas was an advanced follow-up, but she had done the week-long seven-day retreat. And she was in Dallas, and she was sitting, um, uh, sorry, she was in Denver. And she was sitting in the front, away from the the audience, under a screen, you know, under the screens. And she was in a lounge. And she had a wheelchair, and she had a scooter, and she had oxygen, and she had crutches. And she was kind of camped out in that area there. And she had about five different, uh, serious health conditions. And, um, at the end of, uh, of course, she couldn't, uh, get up, get out of, get off the couch if she went to the bathroom. Uh, she was done for the day in terms of her amount of energy she had. She was living on six foods. She was on all kinds of medications, a lot of, and, and couldn't think greater than how she felt, right? So if you see a person like that, you think there's really not a whole lot of hope, uh, for this person. And yet, um, she began to learn the information and began to practice the information, uh, for the entire week. Um, and at the end of the, uh, seven-day event, we were doing a walking meditation as a group outside. And, um, uh, I saw her out of her wheelchair, smiling and walking. And, and they sent me her testimony, and I read the whole thing. And then when she was in Dallas, she came to the advanced follow-up, and they brought her backstage to to tell me the story. And, and she told me the story. And it wasn't until she got on the stage that I realized that that was the woman that was in Denver because she did not look like the same person. She, she looked like a completely, a completely different person. She has none of those health conditions any longer. Um, she's doing all the things that she was doing before she had them. And, and she, she broke out, you know, she had her moment. Uh, and when she changed, um, her biology changed.

To a lot of people, that sounds fantastical. It's, it sounds almost unbelievable. And I know it is unbelievable. It really is unbelievable. I mean, I have difficulty believing some of the things in terms of the testimonials and transformations we've witnessed. I mean, I, I have watched certain testimonials of people giving their accounts of all kinds of crazy changes in their health conditions, like, uh, like muscular dystrophy. Like, I mean, I've never seen a case of that reversed. I, I know that it's a degenerative condition. And yet, this guy left the event walking, and he was in a wheelchair when he came. And I watched that testimonial. I must have watched it a hundred times. I watched it a hundred times because I couldn't believe it. I could not believe that this guy was standing. And I could not, I could not stop looking at the joy on his face, and the excitement, and the enthusiasm he had for life. It was so real and so authentic. I couldn't, I couldn't believe it. And so it's, it's, it's difficult to believe this. I have difficulty believing it, uh, in, in a lot of, a lot of times. But there's nothing like a good story because that person who's standing on the stage who's telling their story is a four-minute mile. They're breaking through some level of consciousness or unconsciousness, and they're the example of truth. They're examples of the truth. The collective, and the collective who's listening to the story of transformation, and they're seeing that the person's doesn't look vegan, and doesn't look ketogenic, and doesn't look young and buffed, but looks like a normal person. And that person is seeing, and they, they came blind, or they're hearing because they were deaf, or they had stage four cancer, and they don't have it. Invariably, someone in the audience is going to look at them and say, "God, they're no different than me. If they can do it, I can do it." And that, that, that now is information for the collective to believe in a greater level of possibility. And I, and I think that, that that's exactly how it becomes infectious. And health and wellness become as as infectious as disease. We see this at events all the time. So yes, it, it is unbelievable. And I have to catch myself. You tell me, pick one, and I think, "Oh, what? Half of these ones I would tell you, most people wouldn't believe because they're unbelievable." But we have a lot of those.

Well, you have a huge research team that's been collecting, I think I heard, 500 billion pieces of data. In one form or another, given the fact that these outcomes that you're talking about are so unbelievable, are you having to work additionally hard, be additionally rigorous when it comes to the science in order to dispel any accusations of the pseudo-science stuff?

Um, gosh, what a great conversation. Thanks for asking the question. Um, the whole reason that I started measuring, and we've been measuring for a long time now, um, was because when I saw someone with MS in a wheelchair come to the event in a wheelchair and walk out without one, I said, "We got to start measuring." I mean, what is happening in that person's brain? What is happening in their body? What's happening in their biology? What's happening on a cellular level? What's, is there information in their blood? What's happening to their immune system? And we, we started, you know, gathering, you know, um, a lot of data. I mean, we have way over 500 billion data points. That's usually just one or two studies. And, and so when we started partnering with the University of California, San Diego, I simply said to those scientists, "Okay, same thoughts, same choices, same behaviors, same experiences, same emotions, that's the known. Same biology. Sounds right. New thoughts, new choices, new behaviors, experiences, new emotions, new biology. Possibly that's a good hypothesis. You're able to measure it." So we've measured so many things in the human body that says that you can change your brain to work way better in four days. You can make your heart way better. You can express new genes. Uh, you could release thousands of metabolites, thousands and thousands of metabolites in seven days that promote growth and repair in your body. Um, we find information in meditator blood that has a resistance to viruses, all kinds of viruses, even ones with spikes. Uh, that the information advanced meditators' blood somehow diminishes mitochondrial function in cancer cells. That's the, that's the energy in the cell. Not a little bit, but 70%, which is dramatic. And if cancer cells love to multiply and move, and they have no energy, um, they don't live as long. Uh, there's information in the blood of advanced meditators, uh, that somehow downregulates the gene for Alzheimer's. Uh, we're finding, uh, robust amounts of endogenous opiates that reduce pain across the board. We measured 63 different health, uh, conditions, 63 different diseases, um, all different diseases, one intervention, and, uh, uh, the majority of those people have a significant reduction in pain and a very elevated level of endogenous opiates in their, in their bloodstream, you know, natural, uh, pain relievers, natural chemicals that make you feel good. Um, uh, and, and, um, so we just, we've explored the microbiome. We see that you can change your microbiome in seven days to look like a way healthier person without taking a probiotic, without changing your diet, without eliminating anything, somehow, um, the, the microbiome changes dramatically for the better. And the reason is because they're not the same person any longer. They're a different person. Um, so we've spent the last four years working with the University of California, San Diego, in doing extensive research on the brain, extensive research, uh, on heart, heart measurements, um, a lot of blood values, urine, uh, um, everything we've measured, we, we measure saliva, we measure breast milk, we measure tears. I mean, we've measured, uh, just about everything.

Yeah, and are these published? These results are published?

Yes, we have some papers that are published now. Um, we have some papers that are in peer review right now. We have about five more papers, uh, that we're, uh, getting busy writing. But we have, we probably have the largest database, uh, in the world on on meditation right now.

What are the most common criticisms that you get?

Wow. Uh, I would say that, you know, when you see the empirical science, a lot of people, uh, that see the data, whether we show it to reputable universities and and professors, or to NASA, or to whoever, I think one of the things that people have the most, there's the most shock and surprise is that you never see these type of changes in seven days. Like, you know, drug study, you don't ever see these kind of, we're talking about, uh, thousands of genes upregulated to suggest the person's living in a completely different environment, a completely different life, and they're in a ballroom, you know? So, so when you see the effects change like that in seven days, anybody who's a scientist that has that, uh, trained mind, they're going to fall out of their chair because it's the, the, the metagenomics around around it is not just one or two people, it's the, it's the whole entire group. So think about it, 500, 2,000, 2,500 different people, all different genotypes, everybody has their own gene sequence, okay? At the end of seven days, 77% of those people are signaling the same genes and making the same proteins. That's kind of wild. That means that the flock, the herd, the school, you know, there, everybody's evolving. There's an emergent consciousness that's actually everybody's biology is evolving together. Like, and that's, and that's exciting because people change people. That's what we discovered. So when we show the data to people, um, and you, they see it, uh, the conversation that we used to have where we'd have to be on the defense has changed dramatically because these are double-blind and triple-blind placebo studies. These are, they're very, very rigorous studies. So, so the scientist that sees it questions the time. And then, you know, a drug study is about 25% effective, you know, and it usually takes, um, three to six months before you see the efficacy turn out. Our data is like somewhere, uh, uh, between 75 and 100%. So it, it shows that that the nervous system is the greatest pharmacist in the world. That actually works better than any drug. So, so when, when people really begin to see the science and, and, and, you know, it challenges their belief, it challenges, I keep telling the scientists, "I can't believe this is the truth." Like, I'm more surprised than anybody. But I also say to them, "Where do those chemicals come from? Where are they coming from?" The person's not taking opiates, they're not taking anti-carcinogens, they're, they're not taking anything, uh, to change their biology like this is coming from within them. Um, so it's been changing the conversation, uh, in medicine, quite a bit. And we're just working on finding the language. But, but, but people who see the data, um, are very surprised and they want to know what we're doing, which is, which is a different conversation that we've had, uh, in the past.

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Are you doing longitudinal studies? Are you seeing how long the immersive stuff, what, what sort of effects does this lock in over time? Are people reverting as soon as they're out of this very energetic group of people? What's happening over time?

Yes, that's a great question. Um, so, um, that's one of the things about, uh, this work that I really, really love in terms of our community. Um, it's not like people go, "Oh, I got to go meditate today. It's morning." It's that's not how our community is like. The majority of the people that come to a week-long event keep doing the work. The majority of them do because the magic in their life is starting to happen. And why would you want to stop, um, from from having those events, uh, you know, actually take place? So we see that people who heal, this sounds kind of crazy, and we've, there's, we've had a lot of people instantaneously have a reversal in a health condition from one meditation, from one inward experience. There's an arousal that takes place in their nervous system. They move into these heightened states of gamma brainwave patterns. Uh, uh, the person is

Having an inward experience that's greater than the betrayal or the trauma from the past. And somehow, there's an upgrade in their biology. Like, there's the eczema, now it's gone. Um, there's the Myasthenia Gravis, now it's gone. There's Parkinson's, was there, now it's gone. There's the cancer, now it's gone. There's the deafness, now the person's hearing. Now the blindness, is the person's seeing. It's like that. It's like the person comes back and there's an upgrade, right? What do you think's happening inside of the body? What's going on?

Okay, so anyway, let me finish that thought and then I'll answer because it's important to ask that question. Those people who have those biological upgrades that are instantaneous, um, when we measure them three, three months down the road, six months down the road, well, nine months down the road, there's this, there's a sustained change. They got the upgrade if they continue to do the practice. No, no, no, even if they don't do the practice, they got, they got a very good upgrade. Now, a certain percentage of people that that have an upgrade like that and they go back to the stressful life, the Parkinson's returns, the cancer returns because they're back to the same personality again and they're making their same chemistry. Now, many of those people continue in that, that direction. Other people catch themselves and they say, "If I changed this Parkinson's once because my father's in the hospital and I'm emotionally reacted, I can change it again." And they actually change it again, right?

So, um, so, um, and then there's people who go through that process of breaking the habit of being themselves and and becoming, reinventing another person. And it's a, it's a constant process of change. You kind of got a super responder with the first one and done. Yeah, one, one connection, um, one moment, uh, of connection, uh, like, like a brainstorm. And those people who cross a river of change, they tend to do the work consistently because they want to keep changing. They're not doing their meditations to heal, they're doing the meditations to change. And when they understand, when they change, they heal. So it's the process of change that that are interested in. So, so we have a good percentage of people who do the work and after they finish the immersive experience, they sustain those changes. And we have a lot of people that sustain changes whether they do it or, or they don't do it.

So what's happening in their biology? That's a great question. Um, let's see if I can answer this, um, in a methodical way. Um, your senses plug you into three-dimensional reality, right? So if I took away your sight, if I took away your hearing, I took away your smell, your taste, and feel, dealing with your body, you would have no experience of three-dimensional reality. But you would still be conscious. But you would be conscious of nothing material or physical. You would just be conscious that you're conscious and you would be conscious of nothing, in a sense.

So when a person is immersed in three-dimensional reality, um, their neocortex, their thinking brain, is super busy scanning the environment and associating genes and and, uh, it's got to process a lot of information that's coming in through the senses. What it's seeing, what it's hearing, what it's smelling, what it's tasting, what it's feeling. And that, a lot, a lot of that information is coming in. The brain's job is to create meaning between your inner world and your outer world. And if you were to measure a person's brain waves, they're pretty much in beta brain wave patterns. And that means you're conscious, you're awake, and you're aware that you're in a body, local in space and time. You're aware of your environment and you're aware of time. And that's how we navigate in three-dimensional reality. And there's neurotransmitters in the brain that report that.

Okay, if I said to you, um, "You got to do a speech and it's got to be done, uh, by, by without any notes. You got about 45 minutes to prepare." Um, your brain would kind of perk up a little bit. And you'd, it would be kind of a good stress. You'd have to perform, you're confident, you'd have to get ready, you'd have to change your state, you'd have to think, you'd have to, "Alright, what do I want to talk about? I gotta, I gotta change my state." You would move into mid-range beta. Light bulb gets a little brighter and you're a little bit more ready, uh, in a sense. But when you react and you're emotional and you're stressed and you're out of balance, you go into this very high beta brain wave pattern. And that's three times as high as low-level beta. That's when the brain is in first gear on the freeway. It is, it is you consuming all of its energy and it's sweeping the environment and it's shifting its attention from one person to another person, to another problem, to another thing, to another place. It's trying to forecast, it's trying to predict. And the brain starts firing very, very disin redly. It starts, it's firing incoherently, out of order. And people, they need a drug or they need a drink or they need something to take away that kind of state. And and their, their thoughts are literally driving their brain into higher and higher states of of beta. They're, they're, addiction to those thoughts are driving the brain out of balance.

Okay, so when you're in that state, you're very narrow focused. You're, you're obsessing on things. That's what, what the brain does. It overthinks, it over, it overanalyzes. Uh, so if you can change your brain waves from beta to Alpha, now your inner world starts becoming more real than your outer world. And in a sense, you're, you become more creative. Your brain stops talking to you in your head. You stop analyzing. You start seeing in images. You start seeing in pictures. And Alpha is an imaginary, very creative state. You're still aware of your outer environment, but not so much.

Okay, so here's the answer to your question. If you can get so relaxed that your body moves into a light state and it's in a light rest, and you're conscious and awake, now you're in Theta. And that's a very hypnotic state. And when you're in a hypnotic state, you're in a state of trance and you're very suggestible to information. And suggestibility is your ability to accept information, to believe the information, to surrender to it. And and that's what can program a person to do about, just about anything, right? So hypnotists use when he's, when he's making suggestions, the person who's in Theta, the door between their conscious mind and the subconscious mind is wide open to information.

Okay, so that makes sense. Uh, if you're getting information through your senses and you're in Theta, you're in a hypnotic state. But what if the person's eyes are closed? What if there's music filling the space? They're not eating, they're not tasting, they're not smelling, they're not experiencing, they're not feeling. And they're in that realm of Theta. And I ask them, instead of the put their all of their attention on everything physical and everything material, to open their awareness, instead of narrow their focus, broaden their focus. And put their attention not, not on the material, but on the immaterial. Not on the particle, but the wave. Not on matter, but on energy. And and and the atom is 99.9999% information and energy.

Okay, so having the person focus on nothing, this is the funny part about it, and broadening their focus. If they can dial down their thinking neocortex, the Theta, they'll have no experience of their body, no experience of their environment, and no experience of time. And they're in Theta. They're still suggestible to information, but they're not aware of their outer environment. But they're still suggestable. There's only one other place that information comes from and that's frequency. And all frequency, radio waves, Wi-Fi waves, uh, x-rays, all carry information. So when the person opens their awareness to the wave function, to energy, and to information, they pay more attention to that and less attention to themselves. More, they connect more to that and less to the three-dimensional reality.

If there's, if there's coherence in the brain, all of a sudden the person has a moment of connection. And the brain goes into a gamma brain wave state. And Gamma, now, is an arousal. It's superconsciousness. But it's not coming from fear. It's not coming from aggression or anger. It's not coming from pain. The arousal is ecstasy. A person is making connection. And when we measure the amount of gamma that's taking place in the person's brain, 3%, uh, 2% to 3% of the population in anything that we're measuring, really good is three standard deviations outside of normal. Uh, these people are 200, 300, 400, 500 standard deviations outside of normal. And three is really great. Is this on an FMRI? This is a quantitative EEG. And we see the same pattern. The limbic brain, the seat of the autonomic nervous system, is functioning in a very, very coherent, highly organized, very, very fast frequency of gamma. Now, remember, stress is autonomic dysregulation, right? Dysregulation in the autonomic nervous system, moving out of balance. These high states of gamma is autonomic regulation. Now, the autonomic nervous system controls and coordinates every system in the body. And if it's, if it's processing an energy in a frequency that fast, every single cell in the body is getting the information. And the body's literally raised in energy and raised in frequency. And that's when you see the instantaneous, uh, upgrade that goes on biologically in a person's body. And we actually now can predict it. When we see a person move into a certain level of Theta, we can say, "Oh boy, this is going to be really good, like really good." And that person, um, is having a very, very powerful internal experience.

What is the felt sense that somebody will tend to go through during that process? What's the, what's the embodied subjective experience of going through this? So we have a, we have a, a scientist that, um, studies the language of transformation, uh, from the University of Central Oklahoma. A super great guy. And he's been studying the language of transformation and all the testimonials of all the many of the people who have had these moments. And the subjective experience is twofold. Um, it's very, um, somatic. When I mean somatic, I mean like they say, like, "Every single cell in my body, uh, was vibrating at a faster frequency. I felt that incredible. My heart felt like it was going to blow open. Um, I felt like I was filled with light." They'll give you like something very somatic. Like, "Oh my God, I was, I felt this in my body." And then it's also very emotional. That's the other part. But it's not like emotional like, "I've never felt love. I thought I understood love. I thought I have felt love. I've never felt love like this. I felt so connected. I felt so whole. I felt so pure. Um, I, I felt it was the most familiar unfamiliar feeling I've ever had. Oh my God, I forgot, uh, I forgot that I was, that it was within me." Whatever. Um, and then, and then the other element is after that, they, they have a language where they only can use metaphor to describe the unknown experience. They'll say, um, "Yeah, my heart turned on like an engine. The top of my head blew off. There was lightning coming out of my fingertips." They're, they're trying to explain, but they'll say, "Well, it wasn't lightning, really. It just felt like this, but it was more like this." So, um, so the, the language, uh, specialist that has been studying this had his own moment, uh, at, uh, an event we did in Marco Island, uh, last September, where he connected. And, um, I sat down with him and talked to him, and he could not find the language. The language guy, the language guy, could not find the language to explain what the heck happened to him. But he was totally switched on. So, so there's, there's an arousal that takes place. Uh, there's high gamma brain wave patterns. It's autonomic regulation. It's very somatic. It's very emotional. And, and, um, there, people describe it kind of like a connection.

I want to talk about fear. Why do you think it's such a pervasive emotion, given that we're living in a time which has never been safer than ever before? Yeah. Well, I think fear has been very adaptive for us as human beings. I mean, I think, you know, if you, if you have a lot of common sense and you're navigating in your life, um, there's certain things that you, you avoid, um, that I think is healthy. And I think there's, things where, uh, you can't predict something or you can't control something, uh, and you kind of get ready. That's what the early stages of fear is. You kind of rev up and you get ready. You're ready to perform, you're ready to act, you're, you're ready for something, right? And, and I think that's healthy, um, um, when it's within a limit. And then when it gets to that point where you absolutely have the perception that it's going to get worse instead of get better, um, that's when the brain goes into these, these high states of arousal. And the arousal really pays a lot of attention to your body, pays a lot of attention to everything in your environment. Do not take your attention to degree of vigilance. Yeah, it is vigilance. And, and try to predict the worst thing right now that could possibly happen. Predict the worst, because if you can get ready for the worst and you're, you're ready for it, anything less that happens, you're going to survive. So the brain's actually predicts the worst-case scenario. When it picks that worst-case scenario, the body goes into a heightened state of fear, right? And, and now in fear, though, um, the conditioned response that takes place from feeling that emotion is storing that emotion in the body, right?

So now, what do you mean when you say storing the emotion in the body? Um, okay, so, um, fear creates an arousal that switches on the fight-or-flight nervous system, right? So keep having the thought, keep having the response, and you're taking thought in the form of chemistry, in the form of emotion, and you're literally activating that third center. And now that third center is storing an enormous amount of energy in it. And when there's an enormous amount of energy in that, that plex, solar plexus, um, that center, that center is driving more information to the brain for you to be more ready for the next possible thing that can go wrong. And so you could have 10 really great things that go on in your day and one thing that goes wrong, and you're going to focus on that one wrong thing because you got to be prepared for it if it happens again. So, so I think fear was adaptive, um, at one point, and it's become very maladaptive because again, people are always, uh, uh, trying to forecast the worst-case scenario.

How can people feel less if we've got this intrinsic drug dealer, this endogenous drug dealer inside of us that continues to just tick the button, just keeping on pressing it, pressing it, pressing it, pressing it? Is becoming aware? Is it stepping into noticing when that arises? Is it trying to find a degree of safety? Yeah. Um, well, I think, I think what we discovered is that, um, uh, most people don't think that they have control over that. I mean, it's, it's so primitive, it's so in our biology, it's hard to think that you have control over a fear response. Now, um, there's nothing wrong with having the fear response. There's nothing wrong with getting aroused. The question is, how long? Like, how long is this going to go on for? So you have a reaction five days ago from something that's happened, and you're still, you're still aroused by that event. You got to agree that you're addicted. You're addicted to that, that emotion. Keep it going, and it'll become more automatic. You'll, you'll constantly, uh, be thinking certain ways and doing certain things to reaffirm that addiction to fear. Um, so, so for the short term, you know, have the fear response. If you can't shorten the refractory period of that emotional response, more than likely, you're going to be in a program for the remainder of your day.

So what we teach people is how, uh, to master the fear. So, so take anxiety as an example, right? Many people come to the work and they have a high amount of anxiety. CEOs, engineers, doctors, nurses, dentists. People can't cross a bridge. There's a business book called "Only the Paranoid Survive." I think, yeah, there you go. Um, and they've tried everything, um, to try to change their anxiety. But what they haven't done is they haven't caught themselves feeling the feeling of fear and practicing with their eyes closed first. Not, not in their life when they're feeling fear, but, but let's practice when you're sitting in the meditation and your body starts getting a little anxious, starts getting a little worried, starts getting a little aroused. What are you going to do in that moment? Can you become aware that the body's feeling that emotion? And could you, like, like taming an animal, settling the body back down from that aroused state back into the present moment? Okay, it goes great. I'm going to do this for two seconds. And like a spoiled child, it goes, it starts getting aroused again. Now, most people think, "I, I'm never going to be able to overcome this." But the act of sitting with that and keep lowering the volume and, and not, not letting the body be the mind, but you, you actually executing being the mind. Do that enough times and you'll condition the body to a new mind. And that, what that happens is the brain stops firing those same circuits.

Okay, then the person says, "But what if this happens? And what if that happens? And then what if this happens?" And they catch themselves going to the worst-case scenario or going to the memory of the past. And they keep bringing their attention back to the present moment. What we discovered is if you keep doing that, you get better at it. And, and when the body, as I said, finally surrenders into the present moment, it cannot be in fear any longer. So the person then that returns back into their life and has lowered the volume to the fear because they've been practicing, will respond less emotionally in their life because they've overcome it. Right? If they haven't overcome it, then the response is going to be the same. So first thing, eyes closed. You got to practice with your eyes closed. But get so good at doing it with your eyes closed that you can do it with your eyes open. And when it's the hardest, it matters the most. And so, justified or valid or not, those chemicals are not good for you. They're not good, whether you're right, whether you're justified. The only person that's hurting is you.

So then the person says, "Okay, well, is this, is this loving to me?" Okay, so the fear is real. Okay, so what, what emotion could you change from fear into? Okay, so we teach people, okay, can you practice breathing and slowing your brain waves down? Working with the animal, working with the body. Slow your breath down. Slow your brain waves down. Yeah, but I don't want to. Okay, do it anyway. Practice slowing your breath down. Breathing a little bit slower, your brain waves start to change. Put your attention on your heart. We have great data to show where you place your attention is where you place your energy. You see a very low frequency of the heart starting to build in the person. So now the heart is getting energy. And then the parasympathetic nervous system starts coming up. The body starts moving into that state. Okay, that's really great. Keep doing it over and over again. Keep relaxing into your heart energy, moving into the heart. The heart informs the brain. The trauma's over. Betrayal is over. The, uh, the event is over. What you're afraid of is, is over. And it resets the baseline in the amygdala for trauma. And the side effect of that is the person now, when energy moves into their heart like that, they start getting very creative. The heart is a very creative center. Okay, what do I want to do now? Like, what do I want to create now? So, so, uh, it's something that you can only talk around, but when you're in the work and you're practicing it, it's first so important to face off with it with your eyes closed. And it's David against Goliath in the beginning because the program is so ingrained in our biology. And yet, people who keep practicing, lowering the volume, lowering the volume, you see the brain scans, CEOs, as I said, all kinds of different athletes, you see the dramatic change in the brain. There's the anxiety, and now it's gone. And there's just a significant changes in a person's subjective view of the world as well.

Is this your format, your process to move through most painful emotions? Um, that's one of the ways, uh, that we do it. I think just it isn't enough to inhibit the thought and the feeling. I think it's practicing feeling something else. And then we use, we use technology to actually tell you when you're doing it and when you're not. That's so important. So, so take a, a Navy SEAL, for example, who has, um, done all the talk therapy, tried all the pharmaceuticals, tried all the antidepressants, tried all the pain relievers, tried the ayahuasca, tried the plant medicine, and they still can't function in their life, right? And so why can't they function in their life? Because, uh, they, they haven't gotten beyond the emotion that's keeping them connected, uh, uh, to the past. Well, if you can, if, if what you said earlier on is true, and you continue to replay this story, and if your body and your physiological system and your endocrine system and everything else is just cascading down the same, it's like you're reliving it. It's actually like you're reliving that same experience over and over and over and over again. So it does make sense it would be like trying to fix a soldier's PTSD while he's still in the field. Exactly, because that is where the brain is taking him back to.

Yeah, so, so, um, we have seen people come right up to the edge of their emotional belief, you know, where the, where the pain, where the emotion is at its height, you know, and, and the hardest part of, uh, every war is the last battle. And they, they go one more time, you know, they just say, "I'm going to go again." And when they, when they go again, um, many times they, they're, that's when they have their breakthrough. And the breakthrough isn't, as I said, just like, um, a little breakthrough. It's an immediate relief, uh, for the person. And, and so that's the moment then when they look back at their past, they, they see it through a whole different lens.

I want to show you a clip of Theo Von with Sean Strickland. So Sean Strickland is the current UFC middleweight champion. And in a podcast with the two of them, he talks about some trauma that he's been through in his past. You know what I'm talking about? Huh? Yeah. Have you ever heard that? Yeah. I'm sorry, bud. So, man, I'm sorry, buddy. We don't have to talk. Man, I could just sit here with you for a minute. Oh, I think it's hard things that people don't understand, but like trauma, you know? Yeah. What do you see when you look at that? Oh, I, I see a real vulnerable moment for somebody. Really vulnerable moment. Um, and, uh, yeah, I think childhood trauma is, I think probably the biggest, uh, trauma for many people to overcome. Because, uh, children, their brain waves are very slow. I mean, um, in Alpha, in, in Theta, and, uh, information goes in very quickly, right, into their subconscious. And, and I think that, um, we figure out adaptive ways, uh, to not have to feel those emotions or not have to look at that past. But it's, we're always aware of it. It's always there, right? But, but we don't really have a moment where we fully allow ourselves to experience it. And, and I think he had a moment, uh, where, by association, um, he let himself be vulnerable, which I think is great. That video is, every single time I watch it, is very difficult to watch for me. And it's twofold. It's first off, someone that's become a professional hard person, right? He just punches people in the face, he likes violence. Him opening up and him struggling. And then Theo saying, "It's okay, man. We don't need to talk. We can just sit here for a while if you want." I can't. It's, it's so beautiful. Yeah. There's, and I, and I think, um, uncertainty, and I think that moment of vulnerability needs space. I think it needs space, um, and it needs time, uh, for the person to sit in that and allow themselves to fully feel it, right? And, and that's how, that's how it, you, you sit in it long enough, it goes away. It finally goes away.

What's your advice for somebody playing the Theo role? Someone's having a conversation with somebody else who is on the verge of opening up, they're on the cusp of of feeling something uncomfortable or trying to open up about it. How can someone hold space more effectively? Oh, I think, I think all people really want to do is feel safe and feel loved, you know? So again, I think he played that really, really well. And that is just, uh, let that person know that you're, that you're there for them and, and give them, uh, the room to go as far as they want to go. And, and some people, uh, uh, feel really safe when that happens, and I think they, they, they release it.

You mentioned before about this, uh, discomfort with feeling feelings. We live in a world which is very good at distracting us from feeling feelings. There are a whole host of drugs, philosophies, technologies, ways of thinking that can distract us away from feeling feelings. And if there's somebody that's listening to this and thinking to themselves, "I don't think I'm feeling my feelings." That's folly. How can someone get back in the rhythm of feeling the feelings again? Yeah, you got to sit with yourself. You got to take your device and set it in the other room. You got to shut it off and feel without that thing. And you got to think for yourself. And I think, um, the, that kind of art of contemplation, um, has been lost because I think that process of self-reflection kind of is a building process neurologically in, in our brains. And so to, to, you know, we joke all the time with people who go through a week-long event. I say to them, "When's the last time you sat with you this long?" Till you finally, like, you, you, if you sit with yourself long enough, um, those feelings are going to come up. They, they will come up because, uh, um, you have nothing to do. You have nothing to do. Uh, your inner world and how you're thinking and how you're feeling is going to become very obvious to you. Um, and so I think, um, people ask all the time, well, well, why is my health condition like this? What do I, what are the thoughts, what are the feelings that I need to change? It's really simple. Sit with yourself and you'll, you'll know exactly what it is that you, that you need to change.

So, um, I, I think you got to create the time to invest in yourself. Um, one of the things that I've discovered with many people that tell us, uh, stories of transformation is that they kind of have this kind of belief like, "I believe this stuff works. Um, I just never believed it could work for me." I mean, that's a really, really fundamentally key moment in a person's evolution because that means they actually have to change their belief. And that's sometimes that means they got to come out of the resting state and they got to choose themselves every day. I see that with a lot of things that, that's something that's nice, but for other people, that's something which I believe could be true. The data seems to be to be true, but that's not for me. Yeah, the weight loss isn't for me. The transformation isn't for me. The relationship that's healthy isn't for me. The group of friends that genuinely want the best for me isn't for me. This, it's like solipsism in a way. It's persistent disbelief. Yes, but only around you, of course. But, but all there is is you. So, so that person then who's, who's arguing in for some limitation, just doesn't believe that they can change their life. They don't believe that their thoughts have something to do with their destiny. They don't believe, they don't believe in possibility because they don't believe in themselves. You cannot believe in possibility without believing in yourself. And you can't, if you believe in yourself, that means you got to believe in possibility. And that means then, uh, that means you got to do something. You got to get off the couch, you know? You got to get up and you got to get engaged, uh, in your world. And you got to be a creator in your life, in, and instead of a victim in your life. Now, that's an easy thing to say, um, but it means, that means you have to carve out some time for you. I mean, and you invest in yourself. Invest in yourself and invest in your future. Do it and get uncomfortable. And know that that's normal, that's natural, that's the unknown.

Okay, if I keep making the same choices, I'm going to keep having the same health condition. If I keep doing the same things, I'm going to still have the same level of abundance. Okay, so I got to start making changes. It's not that hard to do it if you really want to do it. I mean, if you really want to do it, then you, you'll invest in yourself. Now, for me, I think everybody, to some degree, Chris, believes that they have a hand in creating their life, unless they've had a really, really horrible childhood and past. But on some level, people believe it, right? So people say, "Well, yeah, okay, so I, I believe that I can get the car, I can get the vacation, I can get the new home, I can get the relationship, I can get the second home, I don't know, whatever it is that people want." But, but the way they're going to do it is, "Okay, I'm going to work really hard. I'm going to study a lot." There's nothing wrong with this, by the way. "I'm going to be trained, uh, I'm going to learn. I'm going to make a bunch of wrong choices. I'm going to learn from my mistakes. And then I'm going to get really good at gathering a lot of things and doing these things." Okay, I've created a certain degree in my life. But people who really, really start shortening the distance between the thought of what they want and experience of having it, something changes. They may say, "Oh, I have the belief that I create my, my life in some way, but is it possible that it's more than the synchronicity? You know, more than the parking space? More than thinking of a friend and they call you?" Like, everybody kind of accepts that as kind of, "Oh, that's possible." Well, why don't take it to the next level? I mean, what, what if you could actually do more of that? Like, is that a belief that you can begin to, uh, embrace? So that means if you believe that, some level, that you can create something greater, of like, of greater magnitude, of greater amplitude, um, that means then you'd have to get involved in the experience a little bit more. That means I'd have to believe, "How could I possibly do that? Like, what would it take for me to do that?" And so people evolve their belief around creation when they start seeing bigger synchronicities happen in their life, like the opportunity, the, the job, the, the, the phone call, the synchronicity, the coincidence that's bigger than the parking space because they're in investing in themselves.

Now, here's the cool part. The moment they have that synchronicity and it has something to do with what they're doing inside of them, they're going to pay attention to what they did inside of them. They're going to do it again. They're going to believe now, "Oh, I actually am the creator of my life. I'm, I'm no longer the victim of my life." Keep practicing that over time. Keep getting better at it. You don't have to go anywhere and do anything to get things. Somehow, they seem to come to you. Somehow the opportunities coming to you, and you're not having to do it. Now, that's another way to create. And, and we're all creators. So taking time to be a creator, taking time to invest in yourself, taking time to get involved in the experiment. This is an experiment to see to measure the effects of you at cost, right? So do it really good one way, and then find out a way, if there's a way to flow, if there's a way to change that, all of a sudden allows your environment to, uh, change around you, uh, when you change. That's when the experiment gets exciting.

I want to talk about gratitude. What do most people get wrong when it comes to a gratitude practice? Get wrong? Huh? Um, well, if you think about it, when you receive something favorable, or just receive something favorable, if something wonderful is happening to you, or something wonderful just happened to you, the feeling that's created from that experience is called gratitude. So the emotional signature of gratitude means something wonderful is happening to you, or something wonderful has just happened to you. And gratitude is the ultimate state of receiving. That's, that's it. It's the ultimate state. So, um, yeah, you can, you can practice with a gratitude journal and write down the things in your life that you're grateful for. And I think that has a, a really great reminder to to manage your attention and to manage your energy. Um, but by the same means, can you be grateful for things that you haven't had yet, but you believe enough that you can have now? We only accept, believe, and surrender to thoughts that are equal to our emotional state. We'll never accept, believe, and surrender to thoughts that are not equal to our emotional state. So if you're feeling really unhappy and you're feeling really negatively, and you're thinking positively, the thought of thinking positively never makes it past the brain stem to get to the body because the body is feeling miserable. Positive thought never changes the biology.

Okay, so people accept, believe, and surrender an information equals with their emotional state. You watch something on a program and you get fear. The information that comes in after that fear, you're going to accept. You get a diagnosis. The doctor says, "You got this amount of time to live." Live. And you're in that state. That information is going to go right into your subconscious mind because your, that information is equal to the emotional state that you're in. Makes sense? So you can't think positively, "I'm, I'm healthy, I'm wealthy, I'm, I'm free, I'm, I'm unlimited." And your body's going, "No, you're not, dude. You're, you're miserable." So the thought never makes it to the body.

Okay, so that means then we would have to change the emotional state of the body. And we're doing research on this, really, really fascinating research on this now. So the person then wants to accept, believe, and surrender to thoughts of their future. And they want to reprogram their subconscious mind to a new future. If they're feeling gratitude, and gratitude is the ultimate state of receiving, they will actually accept, believe, and surrender to the thoughts that they're thinking equal to that emotional state. And that's exactly what programs the autonomic nervous system to begin to make a pharmacy of chemicals that causes the body to move into restoration, growth, and repair. And, and a lot of immune function.

So we took a group of people, um, in a study, and, um, we measured their cortisol levels and we measured, uh, an immunoglobulin called IgA. Immunoglobulin A. It's your body's natural defense. It's the body's flu shot. In fact, it works better than any flu shot. Um, and so as cortisol levels go up, IgA levels go down because if you're in an emergency, your immune system is compromised. If all your energy is going to the outer world, you're, and you have no energy in your inner world, you're, you're going to be unhealthy. And the internal protection system kind of closes down.

Okay, so, um, four days of changing their emotions from resentment and judgment and frustration and impatience, uh, to gratitude and appreciation. Four days. And we measured their hearts because when you're frustrated and you're impatient, um, and you're judgmental, your heart beats very differently. When you're grateful, well, when you're grateful, um, your heart starts to beat in a more rhythmic way. And there's a couple pathways where oxytocin signals nitric oxide, and nitric oxide signals another chemical that causes the arteries in your heart, literally, to swell, to open up. And so when you actually feel gratitude, there's a physiological component that takes place where your heart feels full. And when energy or blood makes it to the heart, and energy makes it to the heart, it's a different consciousness, right? It's a, it's a different level of awareness than when you're feeling resentful or you're feeling impatient. So feel the emotion of gratitude and open your heart. Keep activating that center. We discovered that when a person, a person feels that emotion and they do it for four days, their IgA levels went up 50%, uh, just in four, uh, 4 days. So there's a robust immune response that takes place by just, uh, changing, uh, from those limited emotions to more elevated emotions.

So we saw that when a person's feeling gratitude, um, and their heart goes from kind of a, very, uh, incoherent state to a more regulated and organized state, that once energy makes it to the heart, as I said earlier, um, somehow it begins to move to the brain. And if you would imagine like grabbing a big sheet and going like this, it's almost like the heart is causing this beautiful pattern of energy movement to the brain. Causes the brain to move in these beautiful alpha brain wave states. That is that state of imagination. So I think when we're grateful, um, those social networks turn on where we want to connect. I think we, we have more appreciation for the moment. Uh, and, and I think we're more prone to give, which actually releases more oxytocin, which releases more nitric oxide, and causes us to feel even, feel even better. So we teach people then to feel grateful for things that they haven't had yet, as well as the things that they have in their life. And it tends to produce profound changes in their biology.

Tactically, what are the cues that you're giving to people? There will be people that are listening now that think, "I have a gratitude practice. Or I've seen the results from existing research. Positive psychology, gratitude seems to be one of the most robust ways to improve your baseline level of happiness. Completely free cost free." Yeah. What are the most powerful elements of a gratitude practice? What are the triggers? What are the tactics? What are the way markers that you're saying, "This is something that you should be really focused on when it comes to your gratitude practice?" Yeah, I think that, I think, um, the first step, uh, is changing your physiology. I think, uh, um, I think there's levels of gratitude that you could feel, but you have to stop feeling other things first in order to feel it. So it's not, I, I don't think it's enough, and I'm just saying this for myself, um, it's not enough for me to feel gratitude for five minutes and then spend the rest of my day feeling miserable. That's not why I'm doing it. I'm doing it to sustain that state, uh, for an extended period of time. That's, I want to get really good at doing it with my eyes open. So I believe that if I'm walking around in a state of gratitude with my eyes open, and I can sustain that state for an extended period of time, there should be an, there should be opportunities coming to me as the result of my change in energy, right? So I make the effort in the experiment, okay? Because this is an experiment. I make the effort in the experiment that if I can stay in this great state of gratitude, that I should see something unusual come to me as a result of it. That, that's why I do it. So that means that you have to, we're hypnotized and we're conditioned to believe that something out there has to change in order to take away the lack of separation of not having it inside of me. Gratitude kind of fills that lack. And so if you're not waiting for your life to change to feel that emotion, you're actually saying, "If I generate gratitude, I actually heal. If I generate gratitude, I should create this in my life." So I just like to use it in a way that tends to be more creative and not just be grateful for the things that I have. I think that has a lot of great biological effects, but as the creator in your life, to shorten the distance between the thought of what you want and the experience of having it without having to do a whole lot, um, I think gratitude is that perfect state of receivership.

Talk to me about the role of hard work and how you see it. Because there is a, a temptation, I can imagine, for people to believe that thinking it is all that needs to happen. Yeah. And this, you know, I remember Rhonda Byrne, who wrote "The Secret." There was a tsunami in Thailand or Indonesia, Boxing Day 2006, I think, 2006, something like that. And there was a famous news article that came out shortly after that. I think "The Secret" had come out. And then, as always, an author that's got a book that's in circulation, let's get Rhonda Byrne to comment on this geological, you know, issue. And she said that the reason that the tsunami had hit the people of Indonesia or Thailand was because that they were attracting that energy. And that went down quite poorly, perhaps unsurprisingly. Hundreds of thousands of people have been displaced by a tsunami, and it was being blamed on them for sending out energy that then got this tsunami to come. The converse being that lots of people who believe in agency and like the idea that they've got control over their own lives, take a very materialist, very utilitarian, very sort of rationalist, traditionalist perspective on, "I just need to do the thing." So how do you marry this need for hard work, yeah, with the insights that you have around envisioning your future?

Um, I, I don't, uh, I just want to define hard work, um, uh, first, because, um, I think, um, I don't see hard work as the way people see hard work. I mean, I'm a, I'm a very immersive person. So if I'm going to get good at something, um, I'm going to put my, my mind, my body, my heart and soul behind whatever it is I'm going to do. And, and I do that because I like it, you know? I like to learn, I like to experience, I like to grow. Um, and I think, um, you can get really good at doing it one way, and the hard work, the, you know, all the stuff we talked about, get really good at doing it and become successful, and then have what, just about everything you want, but you may not truly have happiness. You just may have a lot of things, and you got really good at doing it, right? Okay. So for me, I said, there's got to be another way. There's got to be another way to do it that's different than the way that I've done it. I've done, gotten really good at doing that. Is there another way to create where I don't actually have to go and do something? If I could change my energy, and I've been at this long enough to tell you that nobody changes until they change their energy. If I change my energy, will my life change? That's, that's kind of the experiment that I'm interested in.

Okay, so what piece of knowledge, what piece of information, let me find the information that can help me build the model of understanding that this is actually possible. Now, I'm not watching Netflix, I'm not watching Ted Lasso, I'm not watching Suits, I'm not watching the news, I'm not watching the game. I'm, I'm, I'm reading this information because I want to understand the what and the why. Okay, now I got it. Okay, quantum physics says, Einstein says, the field is the sole governing agency of the particle. The, the field controls the particle. Particle doesn't control the particle. Energy controls matter. Okay, all right, let me build this model a little bit further. Okay, um, if, if, if the field is sole governing agency of the particle, then it's not matter that's emitting the field. It's actually a field that's actually slowing down in

Frequency and creating matter. Okay, I'm telling you all this because I'm using, I'm using quantum physics as a way to help us understand that mind and matter are inextricably combined. It's impossible to separate the two. Okay, well, it works on the very tiny level of subatomic particles, but can, can it work on a, on a greater level? Can, can you make real-life events happen in your life and collapse the wave function?

Okay, well, if I'm matter trying to change matter, if I'm Joe Dispenza, aware that I'm local in space and time, immersed in the illusion of this virtual reality experience, this, this hologram, then I've got to play by, play by the rules of Newtonian physics. But you've got to predict and plan and do a lot of things. Okay.

Okay, what if I could get to the field? What if I could become pure consciousness and be aware of nothing physical and material? Become nobody, become no one, in nothing, in nowhere, in no time. Become pure consciousness and move to that realm beyond space and time. Okay, let me just say, okay, if I could, there is pure consciousness, and I'm not aware of my body, not aware of my environment, not aware of time, and I'm in the field.

Okay, what are the principles of the field? Everything's connected. Everything's frequency. Everything's energy. Um, there's less separation. There's more wholeness. Okay, so if I could get to the field and I can create from the field instead of from matter, as an experiment, could I then begin to produce changes in the field that ultimately would change the, the hologram and three-dimensional reality?

Okay, so I may not be very good at, at the beginning. So I was going to say, some unlearning and changing my beliefs about a lot of things and studying to make sure that when I do it, that I know what I'm doing and why I'm doing it. Okay. Uh, so nothing happens. Do I go back to just going back the other way? Or am I just not that good? So maybe I'm just not that good yet. Like maybe I've got to get better at it. So I'm going to practice again. Um, I'm going to keep building my model through experience, and then all of a sudden, you start noticing changes. Now, the hard work was worth the effort when I start seeing the effects that it creates in my life.

So I think that, that there's a delicate balance between intention, and that's getting clear on what you want, and surrender, uh, which means trusting in the outcome. And if you over-intend, you're working really hard and you're trying really hard. And if you over-surrender, you're lazy and lethargic, and you're not doing anything right. So it's kind of a razor's edge. When you talk about hard work, because for me, um, it really is about building a model of understanding and then being able to immerse myself in the experience to prove to myself that it actually, uh, could be the truth. So the hard work is just good, clean effort and getting so lost in the act of what you're doing that the act actually becomes the experience. I know that for me, when I get to that point where I've stretched myself past the point where I normally stop, especially in a meditation, if I go one more time, it's always worth the effort. Something changes, uh, when I, when I go past that point. So, and I think that's, that works in all kinds of ways. So, um, I think hard work for me is just immersing myself in it until I start seeing effects.

There's a line from Machiavelli where he says, "God doesn't want to do everything. Some of it is up to you." I think that's a nice blending of those two. Yeah. I have another friend who, um, we were at a party, my birthday party, actually, last year, and we were walking back toward his car, who was parked nearby, and, uh, he was going to give me a lift home. And I was waiting for him to beep the car so that I could get in. And he didn't, and the door was open. "Did you not lock your car?" He says, "Oh, I don't lock my car." "That's interesting. Why don't you do that?" And he says, "I'm not sure, man. The universe just has my back." And locking your car, I think that's just, that's a sufficient low lift that you might as well do it anyway. But that line really stuck with me. The universe has my back. And the times when I feel like that's the case, the times when I feel like I'm swimming downstream, not upstream.

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Life's better. Yeah, undeniably life's better. Well, you may have to put 10 in and get one out in the beginning. And then if you stick with it, you put one in, you get 10 out. And that's when it gets fun. So there'll be a lot of people listening who, again, the people who pray at the altar of raw cognition, right? Very, very utilitarian, materialistic. That left brain is always on. How can they learn to expand a view of what contributes to happiness and well-being and fulfillment and achievement in life? What would you say to the person who's still unsure?

Well, um, I think it was last year, we were at an event, a week-long event, and we were, we do a lot of walking meditations because you've got to be able to stand as it, walk as it, sit as it, lay down as it. And so we do a lot of walking meditations to, to embody it. And, um, I was, it was in Cancun, Mexico. There were 2,200 people at that event. We were on the beach. It's at sunrise. The sun was coming up. It was one of the last meditations, you know. And I just, I looked at all these people, and they were looking facing the sun. They had their hands over their heart, and their eyes were closed. So many of them, like, had tears of joy, uh, rolling down their face. They were so incredibly joyful, so incredibly grateful, um, so worthy, uh, in that moment. And I realized, my God, nobody's making them happy in that moment but them. And, and I think when we hit these points where we finally break free from the chains, you know, of our own limitations, I think when we overcome the emotional addictions that keep us tormented and reliving the past, uh, I think, um, that the, the overcoming of those emotional addictions, the side effect is joy. Is it, it's, it's, it's a freedom of expression without feeling limited, uh, in any way. And I just, I can tell you that, um, again, this is only my experience, but when I look at an audience of people, you know, at the end of seven days, and, um, I always tell them, uh, nobody's making you happy but you. And all you've done is decided who not to be and who to be, and you sat with yourself long enough to change that. So when people do that and they get to that point where, um, they're worthy to receive, they, they showed up enough times when they could have laid in bed or skipped a meditation, but they didn't. That they, they kept showing up. I think the universe only gives us what we think we're worthy of receiving, right? And so the person who's feeling that level of, um, happiness, that level of joy, because they've made themselves happy, then they're okay with you, and they're okay with everybody. And I, and I think that's the important point is that, that when we overcome ourselves, the side effect of, of that is true joy.

How can people better learn to love themselves? Wow. I mean, that's an interesting conversation. Um, I, I think love has to be redefined, uh, to some degree, uh, because I think a lot of people have a different definition about love. Um, but I, once again, I really have seen this numerous times. Uh, they have to practice feeling love. I mean, you cannot love unless you practice feeling it. And, and I think, um, if you practice feeling love, you get better at feeling love. And if you get better at feeling love, you become less selfish and more selfless. In other words, you're not, when you're executing from your heart, when you're feeling love, um, I think you, you consider the whole, uh, and, and, um, so, so for me, um, I think when people, uh, push themselves past that point where they normally stop, um, and they truly, truly believe in themselves, I think they're in love with themselves. And when they're in love with themselves, they're pretty much in love with everybody. And when they're, when they're angry at themselves, they're angry at others. And when they're resentful, uh, with themselves, they're res or judge, judgmental of themselves, or judgmental of others. I think that's the law. So we've seen it numerous times. Seen, you know, especially when you see a collective group of people in a state of joy, it's not common that you see that, um, in the world these days.

I heard a story from you about the basketball player, maybe basketball player in a wheelchair, who said that he never loved himself at one of your events, and it just really struck me. That line, "I never really loved myself." Ah, yeah, yeah. I thought it was very interesting. He had MS, I'm pretty sure. Is a professional football player, I think. He, and he came to the event. It was kind of funny. And, um, he, his brother brought him there, and he thought he was coming to a yoga retreat. He didn't know what he was getting into. And, you know, the guy came in a wheelchair, and he's walking at the end of the event. And it never occurred to him to love himself. And we had someone else with ALS that came in a wheelchair, and they brought him backstage. He was walking on that beach. And he said, "Oh my God, the more, more I practice feeling love, the more I feel like I'm healing." He didn't say, "I, I'm, how come I'm not healed all the way?" He said, "Oh my God, every time I feel deeper and deeper levels of love, somehow my body is changing and healing." So now, now he's feeling love, uh, with an intention to heal, right? And I think that's, I think that's, I think there you get to a certain point where, you know, well, we've seen this, um, we've seen oxytocin levels in our community, you know, the love chemical, you know, 200 times normal. And, and when you're feeling that amount of love, it's really hard to hold a grudge. Um, you would never want to stop feeling that way. And so you, you're okay with everybody in that state. Any, any other thought that you have is ripping you out of that state that you're already in. You start to go, "Oh my God, I like feeling this a lot." So then now it just becomes, you know, contagious. You want to feel more of it. And, and I think there's always more love.

Is there a, is there something similar to do with fear of other people's judgment of others, criticism, dealing with criticism of other people, that if you have this sense of innate comfort and joy with where you're at, that any opportunity or risk or threat for that to change just looks like a really bad deal? Why would I take that deal? Yeah. I would take that deal. Yeah. And, and I think, I think that's a natural state of being when we're not in survival, you know, when we move out of survival, I think we, we tend to be as a species, very good, very kind, very caring, very loving, very supportive, very informative, uh, and, and that's people heal each other, people shine for one another. They, I think that's, I think that's who we are. We're wired, uh, to be that as well as a species. And, um, I think that's, that's that model of then when, when you're like, when we see in the coherence healing, is a, you get a group of people that behave all kinds of ways in their life, and you get them to come together, and you instruct them, and they all behave the same way. When they all behave the same way, it's no different than that flock of birds or school of fish. There's an emergent consciousness that's taking place. In other words, in the whole, the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. And the intention to heal another person, as an example, as the collective puts their attention on these individuals, what they're saying is, we're, we're intentionally making the effort to heal this person because when we do heal this person, we strengthen the whole, right? And so something happens with us where we're wired. I don't know why it's so much easier to clean your neighbor's backyard than your own, but something in us, innate in us, where we get to give, uh, life to another person's life, or to love another person into life.

Wow. Um, I was just in a, a Zoom call yesterday with an autistic guy, 27 years old, that was catatonic. He couldn't move. I mean, horrible depression. And, um, God, just a different, he was, uh, scuba diving in Cancun last year after our event. I, a different character, but that's not, that's not important. What's important is the people that administered the healing on him, and the mother who was sitting there telling the story about how their lives have changed because he just broke out. Like he's a different guy. He's super poetic. He can talk now. He couldn't talk before. He's practicing. I mean, this is a new life for him, right? And she's crying. And, um, you want to talk, talk about self-love. The group of people that had administered the healing are all on the call, and we're all, I'm on the call too, and we're all crying because we're feeling the mother's gratitude. And I think that's one of the greatest, uh, ways we can feel gratitude is when we receive it. So some kind of empathy is born that says, "God, we made a difference in someone's life. We took care of somebody in the tribe." Like we're, we're strengthened because of this. And, um, this, this kind of empathy that takes place, kind of draws us closer together, you know, when we, we bond better. So the experience then for that person who administered the healing is creating a level of love that they hadn't had before. And it wasn't from getting the sports car, and it wasn't from going on the vacation. It was by giving to somebody else. And, and then opening your heart becomes less of a technique. It's not a technique any longer. It's just a way, right? It's a thing. And so the people that do these coherence healings remotely, and great studies on autism, great studies on PTSD, great effects on all kinds of health conditions remotely, U, I have sat with them, and they say, "I would never miss. I would never miss because I could have the worst day in the world, and I, when it's no longer about me, it's about somebody else, and I can do this, and I can make a change in a person's life." They're moving closer to love, right? They're, the experience then from that experience that they've never had before, or the repeated experience, brings them so much joy, so much love, um, that they, they need less, uh, from their outer world. And, and I, and I think that, you know, we're wired to be that way.

Self-regulation. The term that gets thrown around an awful lot. What's that mean to you? Tactically, how do you employ that?

Um, it's, it's so easy, uh, in a matter of seconds to react to someone or something, to respond to some stray thought, and in a matter of seconds, default back to those subconscious and unconscious programs because that emotion is driving you to behave as if you're in the past. It's automatic, right? So it's seamless. The default system causes us to, to lose our connection to the vision of the future, our belief in the future. And it happens so fast that we forget of that future, right? So, so, so self-regulation is the ability to regulate your or control your internal state of how you're thinking and feeling in a condition in your environment that normally would create another feeling or another emotion, right? So here's one of the things we did in, in our studies. We don't do it anymore, but we did it for a long time. We saw that our community, we could teach them how to make their heartbeat more coherently. And when the heart does that, it sends out a magnetic field up to three meters wide. It's a big field. Um, and people can get really good at that. And you can do it in a ballroom with a thousand other people or 2,000 other people. Close your eyes, forget about your outer environment, breathe and feel, practice feeling these elevated emotions, get good at it. And, um, you can, you can manage that. Okay. But what about when you open your eyes? Now, what happens when you walk out into your life, you know? And so we decided that we would take, uh, our entire community and we would put them in circumstances and conditions, whether it was repelling off the side of a building, um, or standing on the top of a, a 50-foot pole, and, you know, reaching for, you know, jumping for a trampoline, whatever it was. A bit of disregulation, a something to disrupt that level of order. And this was not about an adrenaline rush. This was actually about the opposite. That if you put the person in the circumstances that would normally cause an automatic fear response, automatic vigilance, automatic anxiety, and give them something to do and teach them how to regulate their internal state and get back into heart coherence, and they're wearing monitors, right, when we're doing this practice, that and, and, and accomplish, right? If you could self-regulate in that moment and return back into your life, and you just, you just did it there, it's going to feel like you should be able to do it in your life as well. Not only that, if you, if you put the stakes really high and the threshold is really high, then you face the problems in your life, you're like, "Ah, that's not so bad relative to what I just, what I just did." So self-regulation is to be able to change your emotional state, get back into that heart relaxed. The formula that we discovered is that the more relaxed you are in your heart, the more awake you are in your brain. For some reason, if you keep relaxing in your heart, the brain keeps becoming more awake and aware. So instead of stressed out, unconscious, and living in a program, practicing relaxing your heart and awakening your brain can actually become a habit. So being able to regulate your emotional state in the same environment, in other words, think, act, and feel differently in the same conditions in your life. And that's, that's regulation.

What are the cues that you're getting people to follow? What are the most powerful ways that people can self-regulate?

Oh my goodness. Um, we discovered that when, when energy makes it to the heart and it moves to the brain, we start seeing this resonance that starts to take place in the brain. In other words, if people get really good at this, their brain is actually has a, a Delta wave that's acting as a carrier to a Theta wave. And the Theta wave is in a resonance or harmonic to an Alpha, an Alpha to Beta, Beta to high Beta, and high Beta, right, to Gamma, right? So we practice doing that with our eyes closed, and we do it over and over again. Relaxed and awake. Relaxed and awake. And then, of course, we practice the walking meditation. So if you can do it seated in your chair, let's stand up. Let's all go to the beach. Let's practice standing up. Why? Because you've got to practice standing up. Practice with your eyes closed. Do the same thing you were doing laying down. Now do it standing up. Okay, now I can do it standing up. I can change my state. Now let's open your eyes. Now, when you say, "Do it standing up," what is it? Practice relaxing in your heart. It's a, it's a, a formula that we use. It's a meditation that we use, and we take people through it. So practice that standing up instead of laying down. Now open your eyes and self-regulate. Practice doing that with your eyes open until it becomes a habit, right? So walk in that state with your eyes open. Keep practicing that over and over again. Sooner or later, it's going to become easier and easier for you to do it. So, so when a person has practiced it enough times, they can create the distinction. They can know the difference between when they're there and when they're not. Like they, they, they'll know it immediately. They lose it. Like they fall from grace. Oh, I lost it. So then they have just one of two choices: stay in the program the rest of the day and complain and blame and make excuses and feel sorry for yourself, or pause for a moment, excuse yourself, get back into that state, relax in your heart, and awaken your brain again. And, and being able to do it when you're out of balance is the reason why we do it. We're doing it to get back into balance. So it takes practice. Um, but gosh, we have so many people that do it really well. To walk as it, practice with your eyes open, just like you do with your eyes closed.

Talk to me about the power of mental rehearsal. This is something that you spend an awful lot of time working on.

Yes. So I'm always fascinated with neurogenesis, or growth in the brain. I've always been fascinated by it. And so, if you look at a musician, you look at an athlete, uh, you look at a performer or an actor or an actress, um, you look at a dancer, anybody who's learning a skill, there's a period of time where they have to consciously practice what they're doing. They have to consciously put a lot of their attention, a lot of their awareness, and a lot of their energy on what they're doing. It takes a lot of energy for them to start this whole process. If they, if they keep practicing it, after a period of time, the redundancy of the experience then starts to install enough circuitry for them to do it more automatically. It just gets more natural and easy. And, and that's kind of the physical rehearsal of whatever they're doing, that's really important. But what separates, uh, that person to the mind of the champion is the person who will sit down and rehearse the act of what they're about to do. They'll take the time and they'll mentally rehearse the, the action. And what the research shows is that when you mentally rehearse doing something, the brain does not know the difference between the outside world event and what you're imagining in your mind. To the brain, it is exactly the same. So as you rehearse what you're doing, and you put yourself in the scene, and you practice it, if the brain doesn't know the difference between the real-life experience that's out there and what you're rehearsing in your mind, experience creates circuitry in the brain. So you start laying down hardware in the brain to look like you've done it, to look like you've already experienced it. Now the brain's, as I said, no longer a record of the past. It's now becoming a map to the future. Okay, keep practicing it, doing it past that point, keep rehearsing it, then all of a sudden, nerve cells that fire together, wire together. It gets more automatic. It gets to be more like a software program. It becomes easier to do. So studies have been done on this where they took people that that never played the piano before and divided them into two categories, and they did functional scans on, on, on both of the groups. And in one group, they had them come and learn one-handed scales and chords for five days, um, and they had to practice two hours a day. And so they played the scales and chords, and at the end of five days, as you would imagine, they had a whole new set of circuits in the motor cortex of the brain. Well, you learn new information. Learning is making new synaptic connections. Get some instruction. Get your body involved. Get your body involved. You're going to have an experience. Experience enriches the brain. Pay attention to what you're doing. You've got to pay attention and repeat it over and over again. Repetition, firing and wiring. You assemble new neural architecture. Okay. Post scans show that take a group of people and have them close their eyes and mentally rehearse playing the scales and chords for two hours a day for five days. At the end of those five days, the people that mentally rehearsed playing the scales and chords, their brain looked like they've been playing the piano for five days, but they never lifted a finger. Take those people and set them in front of a piano. They never played the piano before, and they'll actually play those scales and chords. So they primed their brain so they could actually step into that footprint. So if you're going to really want to begin to make measurable changes in your life because you want to heal from your condition or disease, um, then you can't be resentful around your ex. And so you're going to have to figure out a way how you're going to have to act. What would love do? What would greatness look like? How am I going to, how am I going to overcome this? And how am I going to behave in this circumstance? Because the one hour of my good meditation where I felt great and in my heart and connected and coherent in my brain, and then the rest of the day I'm frustrated and impatient. Okay, I've got to figure this out. So I'm feeling better, I'm sleeping better, I have more energy, um, I have less pain, but my, my values are still the same. Okay, one hour against 15 hours. I've got to, I've got to rehearse so I could actually get in the game so that I'm, I'm not going to fall and return back to the default of that old personality because I'm not going to heal.

Throughout this conversation, I've had this idea in my mind of sort of the shallowness of a lot of practice that doesn't necessarily incorporate this. And I've spent a lot of time with some very, very smart people that are very, very effective at getting behavior to change. But I often wonder about how much deeper than the behavior it goes into belief about what they're worthy of. Many people are really great at doing things, even if they don't think that they're worthy of doing them, for very, I mean, that's kind of like the intrinsic side of imposter syndrome. When you succeed, I didn't believe that I could do the thing. I went out and did the thing, and yet I still don't feel like I was worthy of the success that doing the thing gave me. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And it, it kind of shows to me this, I think shallowness is is the closest word that I can think of. Let's see how I can say this. Um, I thought people came to our work to heal, to create abundance, to get a new job, to have a new relationship, to have a mystical experience. I really thought that those were the reasons that they thought they came. But really, what they're really coming for is wholeness. Um, because when you're whole, it's really hard to want. Um, and you could only want when you're in lack, uh, or you're in separation. And, and, and we, we actually create from lack. We actually create from separation. If you see something that you don't have that someone else has, and you're aware now that it exists, and you say, "I want that." You, the lack of not having it actually inspires you to create and get it, right? So we create from lack and separation. And so if people are spending their whole time in their life working really hard to get the things that they want, behaving differently so they get that thing, and then when the novelty wears off from that thing, here comes that feeling again of lack and separation. And we reach a point in our life for many people where nothing's making, nothing's making that feeling go away. And that's a really important moment in life where you start realizing, "Oh my God, I've got to wake up because there's never going to be something that does it out there."

Well, that's one of the reasons I think that you get sort of gold medalist syndrome, or whatever the equivalent is, that you can always try to tell yourself that, "Ah, that's it. It wasn't the $2 million house. It's the $4 million. That's the one." This was just the reason that I still feel empty after having achieved that. It wasn't the corner office. It's the corner office with the penthouse windows at the top. It wasn't the wife. And there is no, there is always a mañana. Yeah. I think people confuse pleasure and happiness, uh, on one level. And God, I have sat with billionaires, more than one, and they have leaned over and said to me, "We are miserable. We are in agony. We can't even, we can't even enjoy a sunset." Like, uh, because money has nothing, or success has nothing to do with genuine, authentic joy. And, um, mastering yourself, overcoming yourself, in so many ways, creates so much wholeness and order in the nervous system, so much wholeness that you don't want anything anymore. And, and that's a great moment when you feel so whole that you no longer want that. That's the moment you're free. I think that's the moment you really feel free. So, so it is deeper than that. Yeah. I think there's an intrinsic, innate quality for us to remember, uh, something deeper and more profound in us. And I think when people have that full-on sensory internal experience, that moment of connection, that that overcoming, that arousal, you know, that whatever that is, that connection or union, um, I think they, when they, they feel these elevated states, they stop looking outside of it, outside of themselves for it. They start looking within. And, and I think that's a, a really great moment. And, and I, I don't know how deep that rabbit hole goes, but I know that that, um, there's always more love, uh, to feel when we, when we do that.

That was an awful lot of attention paid to self-mastery. But it's self-mastery within a very particular domain. Self-mastery to make sure you don't hit snooze. It's self-mastery to not eat the sugar. It's self-mastery to go to the gym, to lift the weight, to, to complete the to-do list, to do the things, right? This is a world that I inhabit very, very heavily. And it's opening up the doorway to the potential that it might be something more than that. It might be more than just doing the thing.

I'm glad you're saying that because I believe that also. I really think there's way more than that. There's way more than that because there's, there's so much that we haven't experienced yet that has nothing to do with the material world. Have a full-on mystical experience and to the point where you can't go back to being the same person any longer because you're changed as a result of it, that your perception of reality changes from that inward experience. Um, I, I think that I think there's a lot of unknown experiences that that await us that have nothing to do with the world we know.

Do you think that everybody has the same propensity, uh, openness, uh, to to these sorts of experiences? There are some people that I'm around and that I'm friends with, and I think in order to get you to the stage where you would be keen to open the door to the mystical experience, we're going to have to drag you kicking and screaming through a mile of glass. Ah, yeah. You know, it's a, I think when people are ready, they're ready, you know. I, people meet information on their own level, you know, and, and I think that's great. I think everybody's on the journey back to source, you know, and, uh, you've got to, you've got to forget that you're source to have the experience of something other than it, you know. And I, and I think it's now, it's a process of, of awakening. And so, um, God, I think there's, I think there's so much more to experience in life besides that. And, and, and, um, having those moments of those transcendental moments where you, where you realize that there is something greater, it's hard to go back, um, uh, to playing the game the same way.

One of the common pitfalls that must get in the way of people is chronic stress. It's what we've spoken about earlier on. What are some of the ways that stress might show up in our lives that people don't realize? The sneaky, surreptitious ways that it comes and starts to niggle at our quality of life?

Well, just think about the emotions that are associated with stress. It's anger, it's hatred, it's violence, it's hostility, it's judgment, it's competition, it's control, it's envy, it's jealousy, it's insecurity, it's fear, it's anxiety, it's vigilance, um, it's hopelessness, its powerlessness, it's guilt, it's shame. And psychology calls all of those emotional states normal human states of consciousness. Those are altered states of consciousness. So, so if you're feeling any one of those emotional states, more than likely you're having a stress response. The problem is, we get so conditioned into it that we don't know how to feel, uh, uh, feel any other way. So I think we describe change in this work as being greater than your body, being greater than the body that's been conditioned emotionally into the past, and being greater than the body when it's programmed into a predictable future, executing a will that's greater than the program, executing a mind that's greater than the body, and moving it into the present moment takes a lot of energy and takes a lot of awareness, and you've got to sit with it long enough to get good at it. So in order for you to change, you have to be able to move from that place of knowns, familiar past, predictable future, into the present moment, the unknown. Okay, to change is to be greater than your environment. Every person, every object, every, every place has a neurological network in your brain because you've experienced it. Okay? So if you're not being defined by a vision of the future, and you open your eyes and you plug yourself back into the three-dimensional reality, you see your coworker, you see your ex, you see your boss, you see your friend, you see your cell phone, you see the news, and now the environment is actually controlling the way you're feeling and the way you're thinking. So now it's no longer your personality creating your personal reality. Your personal reality is creating your personality. Your environment is controlling the way you're thinking and feeling. So to change is to be greater than your environment, to not respond the same way, not to think the same, not act the same way in the same conditions. Okay? And, and not being in the predictable future and the familiar past, you've got to be in the present moment, means overcome time. Okay? That's our model for change. When you're under stress, the arousal of stress hormones causes you to really feel like your body. The arousal causes you to put all of your attention on your body because you're the priority when you're in survival. When you're in survival, and the brain is in the aroused state, your attention is, you're not going inward. Now, you get eaten. You can't get vulnerable. You can't drop your guard, you know, like the video there, drop your guard. You've got to drop your guard to do the, be vulnerable. But you won't drop your guard if the threat of the danger is out there. You don't want to go in. It's not a time to create. It's not a time to go. It's not a time to learn. It's time to run, fight, and hide. Right? So the arousal causes, put all of our attention on the environment. And when you're under stress and you're trying to predict the future based on the past, you're, you're obsessed about time. So if the change is to be greater than your body, to be greater than your environment, be greater than time, and the stress hormones cause us to put all of our attention on our bodies, our environments, and time, it means when we're under stress and in survival, it's really hard to change. Is it really not a time to change? It's time to run, fight, and hide. Okay. Overcome the addiction to those emotions. Lower the volume to them. Give people the, the, the, the application and have them work with it. They're going to break. They're going to break an addiction. What happens when you break an addiction? You go through withdrawals. Come on, just a little suffering. Come on, come on. Just a little judgment. Just, you know, that's so the body's craving. The body's, the mind is craving those chemicals. And so overcoming an addiction to something outside of us is one thing, but overcoming the addiction to the chemicals of the emotions that are that are within us, is that's a huge thing. Right? And so it's funny because if you're addicted to something like, I don't know, sugar, sugar, or caffeine, and none of these are, you know, have your own belief on them, but if you're addicted to alcohol or whatever, or nicotine, and you say, "I'm going to quit. I'm going to quit." And you say that with intention, with your conscious mind, and then, you know, I throw my feet up on the table, I grab a sugar donut and cup of coffee, and I've got, you know, powder all around my mouth, and you're, you're still, you know, you're still trying to overcome it. Your body's going to say, "Start tomorrow. This is not a good day for you. Come on, one bite. Everybody else is doing it." You know, all of that. That's the voices in our head that lead to the same choices, right? But if you truly broke the addiction to the emotion, uh, to the, to the, to the substance, and you walked in, you could have the sugar or not have the sugar, or the coffee or not have the coffee, because you're not addicted to it, and there's no tug any longer. The difference is that when it's something that's outside of you, one of the most effective ways to change behavior is to change your environment. Right? So you say, "Hey, you can't eat the donut that isn't in your house. You can't drink the coffee that isn't in your hand." Being you have at a moment's notice the opportunity to access all of the sugar in forms of stress or resentment or anxiety or distaste or judgment or whatever it is that you want, that's always there. You have a permanently open cupboard of an unlimited number, 24 hours a day, when you wake, when you go to sleep, which is what's particularly insidious about it. Sure, sure. And, and stress mismanages our attention. All right. So if you're addicted to an emotion, and you're addicted to fear, um, there's going to be some person or some circumstance that you're going to put your attention on that actually is associated with that, that fear. And so, uh, the stronger the emotion you have to some person or problem, the more you pay attention to them. Where you place your attention is where you place your energy, then you're giving your power away to that person. So lower the volume to that emotion, overcome the addiction, you'll take your attention off that person or problem, and that's energy that's coming back to you, and it actually builds your own field. Now there's energy to heal. Now there's energy to create. There's energy to design a new future. So, so lowering the volume to the emotion, overcoming the addiction, is is an art, um, because you go through that period of cravings where your body, which has been conditioned to be the mind, is telling you, "Come on, just one memory. Come on, just do it once." And, and if people are white-knuckling it and they don't know what to do, then it, it becomes like withdrawals. Give them something to do. Let me replace this emotion. Let me replace this thought. Let me, let me do something differently. I think it helps it. I, I think you can move a little quicker that way.

I saw a study a little while ago about the Boston Marathon bombing, and they compared people who had actually been there during the bombing and their level of trauma response after the event to people who hadn't been there but had watched more than 90 minutes of news coverage about it. The people that watched more than 90 minutes of news coverage about it had a worse, more severe trauma response than people who were actually literally there while the bomb went off. Yeah. What is your perspective on an always-on world with technology, with 24-hour news, with social media, with screens? What you're talking about here is connecting to ourselves. We're in a world which is always trying to get us to connect to something else. Just how important is it to disconnect?

Oh, I think it's super important. I think, uh, uh, who controls the information controls the behavior of the masses. I think that's just the way it is because information causes us to be aware of something. So if you accept that information as the truth, you get a collective group of people all behaving in the same way. So, wow, what an amazing time in history right now because if you look around, so many different, uh, paradigms are collapsing around us. And, and wow, it's a, it's a crazy time, uh, uh, to, to be alive. So, uh, I, I, I, I don't know what information, honestly, to trust anymore. There's just so much information out there. And, and I think that, well, I think that I think there are motives for self-interest in the world, um, that aren't aren't genuinely good for human beings. So, um, I think it's important for people to commune, to connect, to bond, to interact in 3D, um, reality. That's why we do our events in person because something emergent happens in a collective group of individuals that come together. We've measured the energy in the room. It's, it's something, something emerges that wasn't there before. When you show up and you commune, and community is the answer. So, so technology, um, I think I think it robs our, it robs our pleasure centers, hijacks them to higher and higher levels. And, and I think technology causes us to get to a point where we can't find pleasure in anything except that little device that people are putting their attention on. And, and we do this at our events. We watch people, you know, they're just, they don't even know that they're addicted to that device until they have to sit all day and not think about it. And then they, when they finally realize how addicted they were to it, when they've overcome it, they have a different reset, uh, for themselves. So, um, I, I, I respect technology a lot because all of my companies use it in all kinds of wonderful ways. But if you can't set that thing down and break away from it, it owns you on some level, and it's regulating your thoughts and feelings on, on a very high level. And so the problem that I've had with technology with younger people is that when you, when you blow up a nation or you punch somebody or you break through a certain level or you overcome something, there is enormous release of dopamine in the brain. The pleasure centers are just dumping dopamine. But that quantity of dopamine is not normal for the brain. So the receptor sites close down because it's like living with a spouse that always yells at you, you just close down and get desensitized to it. Well, so that means then the next time you play, you've got to use, you've got to create more dopamine to switch those system, you know, switch that on. And so over time, um, you kind of hijack those pleasure centers to a really high level. So the problem I have with that is that learning, um, should be a reward in and of itself. And, and if you've just did all those crazy things on a device and your brain is stimulated to that point, um, you can't turn it on when it comes time to learning. And you can't learn without stimulation. I remember the first time that I started getting into meditation and reading, I tried to do a lot of pivots all at the same time. And I would sit down on my cushion at my old house in Newcastle, and I'd have my hands in my lap, and my body would move a little bit like that. And I realized that it was just so used to raw stimulation. And I would start to read a book that is black and white text on a piece of paper that doesn't move. There's no bings or bongs or vibrations or notifications coming down from the top. And my body felt, uh, agitated. I felt agitated looking at this page because it was such low stimulus. Yeah. And trying to, it took

Probably over a year. It took over a year for me to actually be able to sit down and feel that as a pleasurable experience and not one that was agitating. Because I was, and then you get this sort of second-order effect of, "Oh my God, how stupid is it that I can't sit in front of this page? I'm so stupid. What a piece of [expletive] I am that I've managed to condition myself. I can't learn anymore. I can't learn anymore." And then that's the, that's your affirmation. You're actually not conscious that you're saying that, but your affirmation is, "I can't learn anymore. I'm not good enough," or whatever that's your affirmation. You're actually believing that.

And then you take it one level above that and you say, "God, what a piece of [expletive] I am that I think the thought, 'I can't believe.' And oh my God, how smart am I that I'm the sort of person that thinks..." This infinite regress of turtles all the way up, feeling bad about feeling bad. Yeah, I'm a, I'm a black belt, third-degree master at that.

Well, well, um, I think there is this, I think, I think there's a limit to multitasking. And I think changing your attention so quickly on a device becomes habituated. So you, you, people's attention spans have shortened, uh, just an enormous degree. Um, but what, what I think is so important, uh, is, uh, we, we do this work where we synchronize the heart to the brain. And, and that when the heart and the brain are synchronized, they're actually exchanging information. Same frequency, same energy frequency carries information. Heart and brain are synchronized. Now, the heart starts to inform the brain. The brain may think, but the heart knows. And so getting those two systems, um, in balance, a lot of times allows us to gain, it, gain information from within us. And I think, um, you know, um, I don't know about you, but there's a lot of information that I just, I'm not sure of anymore.

Oh, massively. I mean, the interesting thing has been, as we've got more information, it hasn't made people better informed. It's made them more uncertain. Yeah, because the multiplicity of inputs has resulted in so many different points of view that no one can agree on what is what anymore. Yeah. Go back to the Boston Marathon, Ian. There's a lot of information that you're watching that's actually worse than you being there. Or is it? Is it really? Or is it even real? You know, who knows?

I mean, it's a, it's a huge, uh, interest of mine because I, I, I, I just, I think you can program people to do anything now. I'm absolutely certain of it.

Relationships seem to be an interesting sandbox for patterns to appear in. There's something about being with somebody else that draws you out of yourself. You can't, your, in ways that you on your own wouldn't.

What are some of the patterns that people should be conscious of when they are in relationships with others?

I think one of the biggest ones is, uh, uh, "You should make me happy." It's not a conscious belief, it's a subconscious belief. Um, and, uh, "Only when you're happy, I'm happy." That's, uh, another, uh, challenging, uh, uh, program to be in. Um, and, and I, I really think that, you know, for, I think we relate with everything. Everything we relate with, people relate with, you know, relate intimately. Um, but we have, uh, emotions that we share that with different people. And when we share emotions, we share information, we share energy, right? So, so in a relationship, um, as, as long as, uh, two people are evolving in the same, have the same interests and evolve in the same direction, uh, I think there's, there's a lot of growth that can take place. And, and I think after the honeymoon stage wears off, uh, in a relationship, and, and now you're back to yourself, your routine self, um, I think people really learn a lot about themselves and a lot about other people that they, that they didn't know before. And so I think it's really important for people to show up in a relationship and bring their best. That just should be, that just should be the deal that they make. "I'm just going to bring my best." And when I can't, uh, uh, uh, if I don't, I'll excuse myself and I'll get there again. Or, um, "If I ask you, would you tell me the truth? Don't tell, don't, don't tell me unless I ask you. But if I ask you, tell me the truth." So I think there's ways to grow off of each other, um, in all kinds of relationships. But it doesn't have to be an intimate relationship. It could be all kinds of relationships. And some people just have friends they love to suffer with, or siblings they love to feel guilt with, or parents they love to feel guilt with, or enemies they love to hate. And, but if that enemy dies, they'll pick another one so they can still feel hate, right? So we have relationships, I think, that are based, based on emotions. And emotions are the end product of experience. So, "All men are this way," or "All women this way," because we've both had the same experience, we share the same emotion, uh, we can relate to one another. Um, and that's what happens a lot of times. When people change, they're no longer suffering any longer, they're no longer unhappy any longer, they're no longer feeling victimized any longer, and they break their emotional agreements with people. And, uh, that's because they're not the same person any longer. And, and those relationships change as a result of it.

You've got to be willing. You've got to be willing to do that. As opposed to the strange thing is, if you're not already willing to show up for yourself or capable of showing up for yourself and making changes for yourself, what makes you think that you know how to step in when it's you for somebody else? Or when you're trying to work out whether somebody else has your best interests at heart when you don't have your best interests at heart?

Yeah, yeah. I think, I think, um, well, there's a lot to be said about that. But, but, um, uh, if, if two people to support each other on those blind spots, I think, I think there could be a lot of growth that goes along with it. You want somebody who makes you more of what you want to become. I think people are in relationships that they, they go into a relationship to be happy, right? I mean, these people say, "I want love." Well, why do you want love? "I want love because I want to be happy. I want to be happy with somebody." Okay, well, there's nothing wrong with that. That means then you have to become happy in order to be in that relationship. Because if you're unhappy and you go into that relationship, more than likely you're not going to be happy sooner or later.

What role does spirituality have in science?

Um, I think science now has, in, in my world, has become the contemporary language of mysticism. I think it's science that demystifies the mystical. And if you can use different, uh, branches of science that demonstrate possibility, right? I think, uh, the moment you use religion or tradition or culture or even spirituality, you say a word, you're going to divide an audience, you know? Because everybody has their own experience of that word, their own definition of that word. And a lot of times people turn off. They don't. So, so, so we work really hard in renaming everything in the, in the model of, of a, a scientific understanding. So that, I think science creates community. So I think it's the language of, of, of mysticism. And so, um, the research that we're doing is specifically interested in, in demystifying what it takes to, to, to, to change. And, um, uh, we have a lot of information that's kind of filling in the gaps that was once considered spiritual or, um, metaphysical. Um, and, and I've been at this a long time. And, and I've been accused of being a pseudoscientist. You know, you can't call me that any, you can't say that any longer because of the science. To say that is absolutely the truth, right?

So, um, I think, uh, uh, the discoveries that you make when you have a hypothesis and those, the outcomes are actually supportive of that hypothesis, um, it changes your belief. And, and we have, we have scientists that I really, really respect that are running experiments five, six, seven times in a row because they're actually thinking they're going to get a different result. They're, they're, they're changing their belief, right? In that moment. And I say to them, "Why did you get into science?" And they're like, "For discovery." Well, you're discovering something new, and it's unbelievable. So they're rerunning it, thinking, "This can't be right. This can't be right. This, there's no way this could be like, like this is like this cannot be."

Is there a, a scientist that was particularly hard-won in terms of their?

Yeah, our head of research. Head of research, uh, uh, the, the haml that runs our research, he's the head. He was not at, he was open to the idea, but he was going to, you know, he wasn't very, he didn't really believe it. And, and now he says, "In my freezer, I hold the the cure for all diseases." His lectures are about the evolution of the species. This is a, a scientist with over 200 published papers. He cannot believe the outcomes. And, and the cool part about it is not like a small percentage of this part of the parietal lobe is actually enhanced and, you know, 15% of the people that did the study and, and this one standard deviation above. That's not what we're seeing. You know, like, you know, when we saw the data with the, with the, uh, the cancer studies that we were doing, and we were seeing one, one particular, uh, person we were studying, his blood, that it was taking all this mitochondrial function away in cancer cells. We said, "Okay, let's do now. Let's do a community. Let's do a, a group of advanced meditators and see if the information's in their blood as well." 84% of the people, 84% of the people that, uh, we studied, uh, their, their plasma had a dramatic effect on pancreatic cancer cells, breast cancer cells, all different types of cancer cells. It's 84%. That's a high percentage. So again, you want to talk about demystifying, uh, through science, uh, that means, on, on some level, the information in their blood is coming from somewhere. And it's not coming from, uh, anything outside of them. It's coming from within them. So that is, that is quite mystical. Um, and the conversations that I'm having with scientists now, and the studies that we're doing, really are bridging the gap between some of the things that were considered, you know, mystical in some way, or miraculous. But in order to have a miraculous event, you have to challenge convention. And if you challenge convention, you're, you're considered a fool. Cool. You know, it's foolhardy. It's insane. Pull it off, though. Now you're a genius. Now you're a saint. Now you're a mystic. So, so we're seeing, uh, people in this work have really amazing testimonials. They stand on the stage, they tell their story. They're the example of truth. People, I'm watching the audience, pe, the whole entire audience is leaning in. They're leaning in because they're looking at truth. And it's, it's coming from a story. And it's not elegant, and it's not nice. And they got sick, and they lost a lot of things, and they went bankrupt. And, but that, but there's a, there's a, a lot of really powerful information that's being told in that story. The stories that people are, the gathering are actually causing them to become aware. It happened to them. Take that and combine it with all the scientific data that we have. Evidence becomes the loudest voice. The evidence in testimony, the evidence in science says that it actually is possible. And I don't, and I don't want people, I don't want them to forget it. That's why we're doing this. The, all the scientific research, I don't want them to forget, um, that when they do change their internal state, that it has profound effects on their health and on their biology. So, so the science is removing the doubt for a lot of people. And, and I think that's really important. And people that tend to be cognitive, that tend to be rational, that tend to be left-brain, tend to be reasonable, um, we take them on a journey, you know? And, and, and by the way, we have great scans to show that people who come, primarily men, by the way, that come and they're just like, "I don't buy this. I don't even like the guy." You know, kind of like that. Um, and we, but their wives drag him, their partners drag him. They come, and their hearts all open, and they're sobbing, and they're happy, and they're free. And, and their wife is just, could, cannot believe. And, and like the guys like, um, many of them were like, "I never meditated before." I always say, "You're perfect. You're perfect. You're going to do exactly what I tell you to do." They do exactly, uh, what we tell them to do, and they have these really, well, because they have no existing patterns of meditation, expect or anything else. "I've been meditating for 20 years." Well, okay, well, you know. So we see these people that just come with no expectation, white belt mentality. Oh, our data shows, Chris, that if you don't expect anything to occur, the unexpected happens 100% of the time. And when that unexpected happens, we look at the brains of those people. They look like they're on psilocybin. They look like they're on a hallucinogenic, and yet they're not taking anything. Their brain just looks like they're in a whole mystical world. It's kind of cool.

What's your thoughts on psychedelics and the role? Have you guys considered trying to somehow weave what you do in with, uh, engendering a state? Obviously, MDMA therapy is very good for lowering that sort of safety threshold, making people feel a little bit more comfortable going into difficult places. Same goes for ketamine psychotherapy.

Yeah, okay. So, um, here are my thoughts on it. Um, I think if you use plant medicine and you use it, uh, with the intention of giving you another perspective about yourself or your life or your past, and you go into it with that intention, you go into it to, to understand or to learn, and make it reverent, and there's rituals and there's ceremony, and you, you, you can get really into the experience, uh, and have an intention. I think it's great. I think it's great. And I, I've just used them a few times, and I had great moments. But, but I've also seen people. You know, when I did my first one, I sat next to some woman, and I said, "How, uh, how many have you done?" It was my first one. She said, "I've done 63 of these." And she said, "I have cancer." And I said, "Oh, wow. Um, you might want to try something else." You know, like, I mean, it didn't work 63, you know, uh, ceremonies times. 64, right? Number 64 is the one. Yeah, of course. And then we've seen a lot of, uh, the veterans that we work with, the Navy SEALs, and prisoners. Now we do a lot of work in prisons now. Um, we see the same exact thing. That the, that they're, they're stuck and they're traumatized. Um, so, um, anyway, change the person, uh, in, in one state or another, and get them, uh, beyond the trauma in some way. Um, and, and wow, there's amazing changes that that can actually take place in a person.

So it must be interesting for you as somebody who's more familiar than probably almost anybody on the planet, uh, of higher states of consciousness experiences, of observing them in other people, of thinking about them yourself, of all of the rest of it, to then take probably the most reliable form of kind of catapulting you up there, because you've got two types of perspectives here, you know what I mean? So, so the person then who does the, the, the, the drug or the, the, the ketamine or whatever. The point I'm making is that they return back into their life and they're, they're still living the same life. The insight never changed their behavior, right? When we start looking at the derivatives of melatonin that are secreted from the pineal gland, um, we're meas, we're going to start measuring those actual endogenous substances that the pineal gland makes, that is dimethyltryptamine and all of its derivatives, uh, that are, it's manufactured in the body. So if we're seeing people's brains look like they're having a full-on mystical experience, then there should be information in, of course. So we're, this is an event in San Diego in, uh, in March. We're going to start measuring those endogenous substances. And the question is, do you really need them? You know, do you really need that exogenous substance? And, and I think it's great. I think it's getting another perception of the world, another perspective of life. I think it's, I think it's great. But if the person really hasn't changed, that doesn't really, it really doesn't help them. It's not instrumental. So, but when people do have their own internal experience without any ex, exogenous substance, and all of the derivatives are released, and they fit in the same receptor sites, and people understand how to activate those latent systems, um, I think it's way more profound for the person because it's not chemically induced. It's, it's, it's the person doesn't feel it doesn't feel chemical. I just say it feels electric. It feels very electric. Very, it's very electric.

Well, the idea of spiritual bypass, of going to have this peak experience in the Amazon rainforest or in the office somewhere in a nice, cushy room, and then coming back and not doing the integration and not making any changes, and then just saying, "Okay, well, I'm just going to go back and have the peak experience again over and over and over." I, I have a good friend who, way before it was trendy, had taken pretty much everything from a psychedelic standpoint. And I keep asking him, he's one of my most insightful friends, "Keep asking, what are you, you, you've been using these things or you used them so long ago, have you got any temptation to go back?" And he says, "I'm still learning so much from what I did back then." Sure. And there's a lot of respect. I have an awful lot of respect for someone that I've done the work and I'm still doing the integration.

Well, that sounds, it sounds like his personality type, anyway, is very inquisitive. So, I mean, I know people do a lot of, um, U, DMT and a lot of, a lot of those substances or, some of the other ones. And, um, it takes them years to be able to explain, uh, what has happened to them. And they, they said they lived, felt like eternity, and they were gone for for five minutes. And so, so those derivatives that are actually endogenously made in the brain, you know, from that little tiny gland that's in the back of your brain, um, that causes an inner vision, you know, a profound inner vision, causes you to see the part of reality that, uh, you're unaware of, you know, that part of you that, that, that you don't know about. Um, and so that, that, uh, by releasing those particular derivatives in, in melat, from melatonin, and we, we have data that shows why, why is melatonin so key? Um, because tryptophan is an amino acid, and tryptophan, uh, makes, uh, makes serotonin. Serotonin makes melatonin. Okay. Serotonin and melatonin are a function of this wavelength frequency called visible light. So when there's light outside, your eye is picking up information from your environment, and the brain's switching on, and the pineal gland's making serotonin, and that's the daytime neurotransmitter. The inhibition of light, or the absence of light, is the loss of the wavelength of light, and serotonin converts into melatonin, and that kind of slows your brain waves down and puts you into a state of catatonia so you can rest, repair, sleep, and dream. And so the body moves into this kind of rhythm called the circadian rhythm between wakefulness and sleep based on the wavelength of how much light is in the day. And then when the light is gone. So, um, that's normal, but it's a function of light. So when people are in a transcendental state, and now they're connecting to frequency, connecting to energy that's transcendent of space and time, faster than the speed of light, quantum, and their brain is actually connecting through the pineal gland, a little radio receiver in the brain, melatonin can't be melatonin any longer because it's only related to the frequency and the wavelength of light. Now you're picking up a faster frequency. Melatonin upgrades. And melatonin already causes you to dream, but now you're going to really dream like loose a dream. Melatonin is already a powerful antioxidant. You're going to make two of the most powerful antioxidants known to man, anti-cancer, anti-aging, and anti-heart disease, anti-stroke, anti-neurodegenerative, anti-inflammatory, antimicrobial. Take the molecule, tweak it again. Melatonin already relaxes, relaxes you. Now you're going to make benzodiazepine. Now you're going to really relax. You're going to shut down the survival centers in the brain for fear, for pain, for aggression. Um, uh, melatonin already causes you to sleep. Now you're going to make chemicals that are going to cause you to hibernate. Like, body's going to move into stasis. No sex drive, no appetite, no preoccupation with the environment. The body, body is moving into a state of stasis that you'll forget that you even have a body. That's a great way to experience another dimension. Take the molecule, tweak it again. It's the same chemical found in electric eels. What does an electric eel do? It creates amplification of the nervous system. So we see these high amplitudes of gamma, that I mean, very high, like, very outside of normal. So the person then, uh, is, is connecting to energy and frequency that they can't perceive with their five senses. They dialed down their thinking brain, they're suggestible to information, they're connecting to frequency. Frequency carries information. The pineal gland is a transducer. It takes the information like a TV antenna and turns it into a picture in the brain. And so now melatonin produces all these derivatives that fit in the same receptor sites like serotonin and melatonin, but it's going to, it's going to create a whole different experience for the person. So instead of them just getting dimethyltryptamine, they're getting the whole package of these derivatives. We're just starting to measure them. And so we see that tryptophan metabolism is elevated in our meditate, uh, the meditators that we measure, which means, that means the penal event using tryptophan very, using as much as it possibly can, to make these, uh, some of these derivatives. So we, we'll, we have devices now, um, that will be measuring, um, some of these derivatives, just to see if it's the truth.

Talking about dreaming and going to sleep, I've heard you discuss the importance of just before bed and just after waking as an opportunity to investigate what's going on in the unconscious mind. Why, why are those windows so important?

It's, it's really related to serotonin and melatonin. Because when you are sleeping and you wake up, your brain waves go from delta to theta to alpha to beta. And you wake up in the morning, and then you're conscious, and you're awake, and you're back in three-dimensional reality. When you go to bed at night, and there's less light, your brain starts making melatonin. You go from beta to alpha to theta to delta. And so, um, when you move from beta to alpha, you, you stop your analytical mind. And when you suppress your analytical mind, you stop thinking. And when you stop thinking, your brain moves into alpha. So when you go to bed at night, what do you do? You kind of get in bed, you get comfortable, and you think of nothing. You stop thinking, and you go to sleep. And you kind of slide down the scale. And if you can't stop thinking, you can't go to sleep, because your brain waves stay, knows that. Well, and you obsess, and you overthink, and you get all, you're in a loop, right? So there's two times the door to the subconscious mind opens up: when you wake up in the morning, and when you go to bed at night. So those are really key times, um, if you want to reprogram, um, your subconscious mind.

So I'm an early riser. I like the morning. I'm like, early, early morning. And it doesn't bother me to get up in theta. It doesn't bother me because I know that, um, I'm going to sit my body up, and I'm not going to let it sleep. I'm going to linger between those worlds of wakefulness and sleep and rewrite a program, rehearse a new script, rewrite a new something.

What does that look like? What's the opportunity? How can people take advantage of that opportunity? That peri-sleep and peri-waking window, that liminal state where a non-sleep deep rest state is, we just have great data on this. It's, it's, it's the most important time for you to regenerate, to repair, to program the autonomic nervous system, to reprogram behavior, habit, unwanted, you know, emotional response. The door is wide open. You, when you're in beta, you're separate from the operating system. You, you can't get in there. So you've got to be able to get, get in that state. Is what we do in the, in the work. We get people from beta to alpha. Okay, everybody from beta to alpha. Okay, stay at alpha. Stay at alpha. Stay at alpha. Now practice relaxing in your heart. Really relaxing more. Really relaxing more. Get your body in a light sleep, but stay awake. And so in that realm, you're, you, you can, you can connect to energy and information and you can rewrite a program. And so if you're a night person, like I have plenty of people in my life that are night people, they're musicians or artists or, you know, writers and whatever. They just, they just like 11:00 to 2:00 in the morning, and songwriters. They just, that's their, that's their, that's their jam, right? And then there's other people who are just like, up early, and they're morning people, or they like doing that in the morning. So they, they do it in the morning. But it doesn't matter. It's just whatever you choose, um, uh, to get in that, to get in that state. And it's not something that you really have to try to do. It's just something that your brain naturally does. You can take advantage of it. Say, "Okay, um, how, what's my best? What's the greatest ideal of myself tomorrow? How am I going to show up? What I learned from today that I want to stop doing? Let me remind myself of what I'm not going to do tomorrow. Let me remind myself of what I'm not going to think. Let me remind myself of how I'm not going to feel. Let me review these. Let me remember so I don't forget."

How do you avoid that becoming too analytical of an exercise? Because I can see how that could kick you back up into those more.

Yeah, yeah. It's a practice. It's a practice. I mean, it's, it's, it's the observation of self, really. You ask the question and you observe. Ask.

So what are the cues? Let's, what are you've just gone through some questions there. What would be some great questions for people to ask themselves before bed and in the morning?

"How'd I do today?" "How'd I do today?" Like, if you have an intention for the day. I mean, you can't do this unless you're in the game. You got to get out of the bleachers. You got to get on the playing field. It's no long, this is where people leave the dinner table because this is where you actually have to do something. So, so what is the, "How did I do today?" You, what was, you know, "When did I fall from grace?" What, what was, what are my triumphs? What did I, what, what was I victorious with? What do I love about myself? Let me get my think box. Let me get this all worked out. Okay, now I'm not asking you to do any meditation. I'm just asking you to get in your think box while you're in this state. And getting your think box is like asking yourself the question. Okay, um, God, I reacted to this person. I felt this way. Okay, let me just, I don't want to react that way. Okay, remind myself of how I'm not going to react. Let me remind myself of what I did. Let me just review how I was thinking. Let me become conscious of that. Okay, let me, I'm in my think box. I got that down. Okay, um, what am I going to do tomorrow differently? What am I going to work on? How am I going to, how am I going to be tomorrow? How am I going to think tomorrow? What do I want to believe? Let me review this thought and fire and wired in my brain and get it to the point where I actually put an intention and feeling behind this belief. Okay, how am I going to behave tomorrow with my co-workers? You know, whatever. How am I going to feel tomorrow? Let me just review that. Now get in your think box and go over all of that. And then when you get in your play box, you're out of your think box. There's no thinking in your play box. There's thing. You get all that thinking worked out in your think box. When you get time to play, um, that's when you surrender. That's when you open up. That's when you get creative. That's when you let it go. And you go to sleep.

And what about first thing in the morning?

First thing in the morning, what's the greatest ideal of myself that I can be today? What's my jam today? How I, how, what am I going to be today? Let me remind myself of the things I want to change about myself. "I can't. It's too hard. I'm never going to change." Uh, um, "I'm not going to complain today." "I, I know I'm not going to blame anybody." "I'm not going to judge anybody." This is, I got to remind myself so I don't go unconscious. If I start feeling this emotion, you always default to this emotion. "I'm not going to think positively. I'm just going to keep my energy up. I'm going to keep my energy up all day today." "I'm not going to do that." Okay, so what do I want to feel? Let me start, practice. Let me teach my body what it feels like. Let me bring up the feeling so many times that I can bring it up on my own. I want to remember this feeling so I don't forget it. Okay, how do I want to behave? Let me, how am I going to be? How am I going to think? What do I want to program? And, and, and, and start off. If your personality creates your personal reality, it makes sense then if you're going to create a new personal reality, you've got to change your personality. That's the first step, right? And I think most people try to create a new personal reality as the same personality. It doesn't work. We've got to become somebody else. So that's what the word meditation means. It means to become familiar with, to become so conscious of your unconscious self that you don't go unconscious to it. You're so familiar, so conscious of your unconscious thoughts, behaviors, and emotions that you wouldn't default and become familiar with a new self. You know how you're going to think, how you're going to act, and how you're going to feel. That's that, that's the process.

If you were to design a daily routine or elements of a daily routine that are accessible and based on what your research and your experience has come up with are the most powerful, so that people could tactically get moving on this stuff, what would, what would be in the top three?

Okay, um, uh, certainly, uh, the basics. What I just talked about, that whole thing, personality and personal reality. Change your personality. How you think, how you act, and how you feel. If I do change the way I think, change the way I act, change the way I feel, my life should change. That's the first experiment. Okay. Second experiment. If you're living in stress, and you're living in survival, and you're living your brain and body are out of balance, then your brain's out of balance. It's incoherent. You're incoherent. So practice this kind of focus that we call a broad focus. Focus on nothing. We have these meditations. 20 minutes. Your brain starts, the different compartments of the brain that were modulated or compartmentalized or divided because of the hormones of stress, they start synchronizing. They start firing together, sinking and linking in the brain. So the act of doing this causes the whole entire brain, uh, to beat at the same rhythm. To all the networks are whole.

Where can people get that meditation?

On the website. On my website. And then, and then we teach a lot of heart coherence. You know, get your heart back into balance as well. There's another 15, 20 minute meditation. And then, and then there's one where you get them both working together. Synchronize your heart to your brain. I think, um, what happens for a lot of people is, um, uh, they start realizing that they actually can, uh, create that state where they feel good without anyone or anything. So, um, you want to be able to, to be in that field or be in that energy, uh, when you're, when you're, uh, moving around in your life. Easy ones, really easy ones, too. I mean, ones that anybody can do.

What are you working on next?

We have a documentary, um, that's going to be coming out really soon. It really is about a lot of the science that we've done. Um, it's coming along really well. Um, the people that viewed it, um, you know, as a pilot, really enjoyed it. So that'll be something that we'll be letting out. Um, we have tons of more research that we're constantly doing. We have, as I said earlier, we have at least four or five papers that we're working on. We're working with prisons now, um, in Mexico. We've trained close to 2,000 people in a few prisons in Mexico, maybe more than that now. Men and women's prisons. We just did our first two, um, courses at San Quentin. We have another prison we're working with.

And are you going in personally to do this?

No, I have, I have trainers that go.

Really? Would you be, would you be interested in going in and working inside of the prisons? Would that be an experience that you think for me?

Oh, of course. Yeah. I'm going to, I'm going to go to the, the big one in, in, in Mexico City. I mean, these are very tough conditions. And the warden is so impressed with these people, all the changes that they've made. I mean, these are people that are at each other's throats, hardened. They are, they are constantly in survival. They have had some brutal pasts, and they were raised by monsters and they became one. So, um, with no hope. And, and now there, we did our first training, uh, three years ago, and the changes were so dramatic in this women's prison. I mean, they were grooming one another, they were laughing, totally connected. All the other prisoners in the prison thought, "What happened to those people?" And so they pushed the, uh, the administration. We went and did the whole prison. And so, then we did all the men, then we did all the guards, and then we did all the administrators. And then this one warden, uh, at this one prison, this, this amazing woman, uh, had, did the, has done the whole, the whole entire prison. So, um, yeah, we're working with, uh, prisoners. We're working with indigenous tribes now, which has been kind of fun, too. Um, and, uh, yeah, and of course, the veterans and Navy SEALs. Hell yeah.

Dr. Joe Dispenza, ladies and gentlemen. Where should people go?

They want to keep up to date with all of the things you're doing?

Yeah, just the websites. Dr. Joe Dispenza.com. Joe. I really appreciate you. Thank you for today. Thank you, Chris. Thank you very much for tuning in. If you enjoyed that episode, you will love my three-hour conversation with Dr. Andrew Huberman, which you can watch right here. Go on, press it.