A Nun Warns the Church Over Gaza | Mother Agapia Stephanopoulos

This week on the Thinking Muslim, we're joined by Mother Agafia Stephanopoulos, who has lived and served in the West Bank. She shares her first-hand account of the challenges facing Palestinian Christians under Israeli occupation and reflects on how some Christian institutions have aligned themselves with the Israeli state at the expense of their religious principles.

All we ever hear is the Israeli narrative, when in reality it's not that at all. There was this horrific video recently of an Israeli settler violently pushing uh a a nun to the floor and kicking her to the cement ground and kicking her. The prime minister of Israel assassinated by a Jewish zealot. The Wadi Nar checkpoint, the Israeli soldier says, "Give me your crosses. Give me the little icons they had on their dashboard." The churches weren't demolished under Islam. Both Muslims and Christians in Palestine are victims of the [music] occupation. With Marjorie Taylor Greene, Thomas Massie, and thankfully Tucker for starting to open that door and make people more aware. Israel is is committing also, you know, aggression not only in Gaza but also the West Bank. But but I Lebanon and Syria and throughout Lebanon and Syria and The ultimate goal is to rid the land of all Palestinians. right-wing movement that's brewing and and they usually use St. George as sort of the symbol. No, but it's just ironic that St. George comes from Palestine and is honored by the Christians and the Muslims there. why Palestine is so important to you.

This is like breaking the wall between heaven and earth. Mother Agafia Stephanopoulos, welcome to the Thinking Muslim. I'm really honored to have you with us today. Appreciate being here. Thank you for the invitation. Well, thank you for for coming along. Now, we're today going to talk about Palestine and your time in the West Bank. I think you've spent a number of years. How many How many years? I was lived there from '96 to 2006. Right. And you're principally there as a teacher as No, no. Greek Orthodoxy, I was there as a a as a nun living in a convent, but after the first 2 years our church did have a school. So I was assigned to the school in Al-Eizariya, Eastern Jerusalem, primarily Muslim community, Palestinians. Yeah, so lived there for 10 years and was kind of forced out because I had spoken out about how the wall was affecting our community. And but every year since 2009, I take pilgrims back every year twice a year. And also would bring young Palestinians in the summertime to our convent to America when we could. Mhm. Now America denies visas to the to Palestinians, whether it's medical, tourist, or to become to enter the country. So so I have made kept that close connection with people in the West Bank. Yeah. Right.

And and when we talk about Palestine, of course, you know, we inevitably refer to it in particular Jerusalem as the home to the three monotheistic faiths, faiths, you know, Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. Um but of course Christianity has a special deep root to the land. Um I mean, tell me about like why Palestine is so important to to you. You're a Greek Orthodox nun. You know, you follow a form of Christianity that, you know, has a very special connection with Christ. And of course Muslims have you know, we have our own, you know, view and and connection about to to Christ. Um like why is Palestine so important to you? Well, it's it's first of all, it's self-evident, right? It is the land where Christ revealed himself. So that's the pri- And Greek Orthodoxy is the the original Christianity. Everything else moved from that, Catholicism and Protestantism. So in the land of Palestine now, most of the current-day Christians are either Greek Orthodox or the Greek Orthodox faith or Catholic, right? So they have that tie. But in the reality is Christ revealed himself as a man, which was what had been prophesied in the Jewish texts um in the land of Palestine. He Gabriel appeared to the Virgin Mary in Nazareth in the north of Palestine. Uh he was born in Bethlehem. He performed his miracles on the Sea of Galilee, in Jericho, in Burqin. He healed the 10 lepers next to the town of Jenin. So everything in in the cities and towns of Palestine is permeated with Christianity. And you feel it you feel it in the land too. You know in our texts it talks about how when Christ was crucified in Jerusalem or resurrected that the tombs opened up. And so this is like uh stop- stopping the divide between breaking the wall between heaven and earth. And you feel it to this day when you when a Palestinian thinks about who they are a Palestinian Christian in America we think about maybe we have a connection to the indigenous Indians as our history. And maybe we think about George Washington, something 400 years ago. But for a Palestinian Christian their legacy is Christ and his followers from the very beginning. So we can't escape it.

And your interview of Tucker Carlson I mean it's a phenomenal interview and you know I I still receive clips from relatives, little snippets of that interview. Um it reached 2 million views on on YouTube. Uh since that interview have you seen a shift in attitudes in America in particular towards Palestine and Palestinians? Yes, I mean I I am grateful to Tucker because I think in his discernment of how people think and act he realized that sadly not the voice of a Palestinian but the voice of an old American nun living in Palestine and witnessing to what was happening there could break through to the American populace and make them see that to hear of that something they haven't been hearing. Yeah. You know all we ever hear is the Israeli narrative that they're uh extremist Muslims and they're out to get everybody and that's what the conflict's all about when in reality it's not that at all. Mhm. They're both Muslims and Christians in Palestine are victims of the occupation. Which is being fueled by America. And so we began to see at least seeped out some of the pictures from Gaza of the the tragedy of the genocide that was happening even though you still don't have Western reporters allowed to be there. And horrors are being committed in the West Bank right now. Mhm. But it started to come out and Tucker's interview helped that. So yes, the the and you know, you see it in the polls. The the Democratic Party right now, I think it's like 70 or 80% of Democrats now support Palestine rather than Israel. So there's been a seismic shift. And on the right as well with Marjorie Taylor Greene, Thomas Massie and thankful to Tucker for hope, you know, starting to open that door and make people more aware. Please visit btml.us/thinkingmuslim to donate now.

And that for me that that's really the the phenomenon here because of course, you know, we've seen that slow steady shift in left-wing or progressive support for Palestine for some time. And of course, the Gaza genocide just exacerbated and and and made that made it much more clearer that Israel is is committing or you know, aggression not only in Gaza but also the West Bank. And throughout Lebanon, Syria. >> And throughout Lebanon, Syria, and and the wider region. >> Israel plan. Absolutely. Um but of course, you know, the right has stubbornly stuck with their sort of pro-Israel approach to to world politics and to and we have seen people like Tucker have have shifted the dial there. Um I mean, you know, from your perspective, how far can that go? That's a good question. Um I would hope it we will get to the point where enough Americans that we we will make a change. But well, you know what? To me it's like I I've talked this with many people now, informed people. Um because we're at a critical stage. I think a crisis stage. You know, 25 years ago I was saying there was a genoc- slow genocide by Chinese water torture happening. And now we're seeing the fulfillment of it. Where there may be the Christian community is dwindling. So it's like this there's this race how quickly can we change American understanding of what's going on there? Because it's for sure in the next 5 years, look at the young Everybody under 50 understands what's going on. It's sort of like compare when Joseph Biden when Biden was around in a young man. You had the '67 war and you had Exodus. There was this whole mythology around Israel to support them. Now that's changed. Now that his the next generation is going to be the Palestinians are the ones that we support and need to be following. So you know that it's going to change. The problem is Israel is how much damage will they cause before we get to that point? Because that point will come. I'm confident of that now.

I might interrupt you. When I was younger and and I was taught Islamic history, we were taught about the moment when the second caliph of Islam Omar he entered Jerusalem, he conquered Jerusalem, and there was a conversation between Omar and the the heads of the church there in in Jerusalem, the church of the Holy Sepulchre, and and prayer time was dawning and he was offered to commit his prayer in in the church, and he refused arguing that future generations may, you know, revere him and build a mosque over that church. So, there is there's been a relationship between Christianity and Islam, particularly in Palestine, which has been one of a symbiotic relationship, one of living together. I mean, from your impression, you were there, you know, over the last couple of decades, you've been in West Bank like just describe the relationship you've seen between Muslims and Christians in in Jerusalem and Palestine generally. Yeah. So, that most closely came to my attention in 1988 when I was assigned to run our school in East Jerusalem in the town of Al-Eizariya, which is a corruption of Lazarus cuz that was Lazarus the tomb was uh quarter mile from our school. And it's protected to this day and there's a mosque next door to the church, but also actually there's a beautiful story just to connect that whole can demonstrate the relationship right there. Uh in the early 2000s, our town was under curfew like many others, and traditionally the nuns from the my our convent's on the top of the Mount of Olives would walk down to Bethany to Al-Eizariya um on Lazarus Saturday when we have the feast day and go to the tomb and we would pray there. Um during the the curfew time, the curfew year, um we had soldiers on the street and so none of the nuns were able to come down, but the nun who lived with me and a couple of priests that were there, we said, "Ah, it was 10:00 at night. We're going to go on the street and we're going to go up the road to Lazarus's tomb." And as we're going, we saw a few Israeli soldiers and they let us pass and we get to the tomb and there's Aziz. There's the Muslim caretaker, a disabled man. His job was to uh let people in and out of the tomb. And he knew Oh, no, I knew you would show up. So, there was no one on the street, you know, his home was right there, so he could be right there. So, it was just showing the the care and connection and respect between the two. It's one story to illustrate it. Yeah.

And And generally speaking, you know, when you were in uh in Palestine, did you feel any resentment towards your presence there or towards Christians in general from from any of the Muslims? Yeah, I mean, I don't want to whitewash things. I'm sure people will have an incident between Muslim and Christian and someone in the name of religion saying something. But in general, no. Our school had 350 students, kindergarten to uh Tamhidi to Tawjihi, kindergarten through high school. Um 98% of them were Muslim. All right. >> In the school, our icons, Christian images, and crosses still this day. The teachers were roughly half Muslim, half Christian. We all live in peace and work together. And quite frankly, and a lot of times I had I felt a closer connection to some of the the uh Muslim women who particularly who were the pious ones. We would have engaged in discussions, and there was a commonality. You know, we have there's there's aspects of the faith that are so similar to what we call prayer, almsgiving, care for the family. So, you look to those things. I mean, um there was this horrific video recently of an Israeli settler violently pushing uh a a nun to the floor. Yeah. To the cement ground, yeah. To the cement ground and kicking her. Um you know, but there is this animosity that exists. Of course, we know the animosity exists generally towards Palestinians, but yeah, how widespread is this animosity towards Christians in particular in the Holy Land? [snorts] It's greatly increased over the you know, that I think what gives maybe some power to my words is that I witnessed it I I moved there in May of '96, right? And uh Yitzhak Rabin had been killed, the prime minister of Israel assassinated by a Jewish zealot uh 6 months before. And Netanyahu came into power certainly a little after then. Yeah. In the beginning of that time, um direct attacks down Christians weren't so great Right. uh budget. And that Jewish zealot movement wasn't very strong. Mhm. The the Yigal Amir who assassinated Rabin was sort of the outcast of Israeli society. Sadly, what we've seen over the last 25 years is Netanyahu and other politicians made a deal with the religious segment of the population, with Ben-Gvir and Smotrich. And they have a parliamentary system, so that that religious uh wing has become much more dominant in Israeli society. Right. There's no longer a peace camp to speak of. Most Israelis in in general have been so indoctrinated to be fearful of the other side that they'll accept continuing the genocide. So, what's happened is so where where before the attacks against Christians were limited, now I'll just convey a couple stories. 2 years ago I was traveling with a priest through a checkpoint in the northern West Bank. He had a big cross on him. We're at the checkpoint and the soldier suddenly grabs and starts flipping his cross. And I you never would have seen that before. And then when I was there this past September I was sitting with some women from Beit Sahour, near Bethlehem, a predominantly Christian area. And they're telling stories what happened to them at the checkpoint. And one described how that they were traveling between Jericho back to Bethlehem. They were at the Wadi Nar checkpoint. The Israeli soldier says give me your crosses. Give me the little icons they had on their dashboard. Now, give me a piece of paper. She wraps them up and throws them in the garbage. Right. Now, those kind of things just wouldn't have happened uh 20 years ago. But the because they've so elevated the religious uh parties it's it's become a way Yeah. And sadly, the the really critical thing is you referred to Omar, is that you know, I remember visiting Mount Sinai. We take people there. Within the monastery of St. Catherine, there's a small mosque. So, the thing is in uh Judaism, with Islam, at least their sense of um connection between the two, respect of the prophets, and of the churches weren't demolished under Islam rule for the most part. Under Judaism, what we're seeing now is they want to erase both the Muslim and the Christian presence. So, that and that's becoming very apparent these days. I mean, how widespread is that? Again, we see in social media, and it may be exaggerated, but the sort of the the spitting on on on Christian on Christians generally, you know, for for you know, settlers who spit on Christians. Is that Is that a widespread I Oh, well, I mean, that happened years ago even to myself, but occasional instances. But like they've become more dominant. You know, in the old city, it's divided divided, but they're intermingling Jewish quarter, Armenian quarter, Muslim, Christian. Now, it's almost devoid of the Christian the Jewish uh have bought homes and have been able to take over apartments within the Christian Muslim quarters. So, the presence of the other is being So, the occasions of spitting and the more aggression is just uh it's widespread within Jerusalem. Other parts uh you wouldn't see as much. And like I said, I you don't want to say that the secular population engages in that kind of activity, but like I said, the the the youth are no longer people who are seeking a secular democratic Israel. The youth are being educated in this religious uh uh zealotry. So, of course, you're going to see an increase in the attacks. And the ugliness and the horror of what they're doing in the West Bank, the burning of cars, the the graffiti threatening people. And you know, even now, it used to it was on the outskirts in in the the of the West Bank that is actually more agricultural, where the Bedouins were, more open land, that's where the settlers were being most aggressive. But now they're reaching into the even predominantly Christian towns. People have heard about Taibah. I witnessed with my own eyes seeing settlers on with guns supplied by America with rifles on the olive, you know, olive trees, the area there, not allowing the the local Christians to be able to go to their um to pick their olives. And in that Zahour, Shepherd's Field, just the other day Tal Tal was telling me story how settlers are there with guns actually entering the markets, which just just never would have happened. And the brazenness of it because quite frankly the reality is the Western world will pick up on what happened to Christians more than to Muslims. So the fact that they feel that they can get away with this now is a dangerous sign.

I mean, I'm surely for Israel tactically at least it doesn't make sense to treat Christians and uh Christian Palestinians and Muslim Palestinians the same. I mean, you know, you would think that they would want to uh create some sort of texture to the way they treat uh different Palestinians as a way of of of of garnering, you know, some opinions and positive opinion from the West. You know, these are the terrorists, but these are the good guys. Why is it that they treat all Palestinians the same? Well, number one it would Oh, why they treat them all the same is because the ultimate goal is to rid the land of all Palestinians. Really, any foreign influence. But I think, you know, I think in the I mean, I think of my early years. I think there were attempts to try to draw a divide between Palestinian Muslim and Christian in order to to have them but you know, not unite with each other. For example, uh you know, there is no state of Palestine, right? Israel controls the border the the paths before, so you they give permits for people to able to work, which are not given at all now. But one way they would have sort of sort of tried to create a divide is maybe favor Christians receiving permits or the length of time that they receive them. But that didn't go anywhere. I remember very clearly when they tried to and people would basically say, "Yeah, we understand what they're trying to do." So that never happened where they created any kind of divide. Yeah, of course logically what they would they might have been even a misreading of Christianity in that because they had such a strong connection with the evangelicals and thinking that's the Christian voice that they didn't realize that, you know, these Christians that actually live in Palestine are not the ones that you guys are using for your your political purposes. Yeah.

Um um you would think that an attack on Christianity in the Holy Land would inevitably provoke outrage in America and across Western Europe, but it doesn't. It hardly makes the news today. Like why is that do you think? Huh. >> [sighs] >> Well, I think for I'll I'll try to give credit to the people in America is that they've been force-fed this narrative for so long that they don't know the truth. And so, you know, like we said before already, no reporters in Gaza, um inhibiting the social media, and so that's why people have been reluctant to come out. But then quite frankly, you know, it's disturbing to me I want to be careful if I even want to say this. I'm a member of the Greek Orthodox Church and the the largest um communities in in the United States are the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese. The head bishop of that church is not allowing me to speak in Greek Orthodox churches. Not my bishop. I'm part of the more traditional part, but he isn't. Um I think it'll probably change when enough Americans and enough mainstream Christians are going to say, you know, you they they put their finger to the wind. Unfortunately, too much of the institutional church uh is cautious whether it's for business reasons or trying to be on the right side. Unfortunately. And so he's not allowing you to speak because of your advocacy for Palestine. >> cuz I mean it's and and the frustration for me and the reason that my life should be one living in my cell and in prayer, not outward. But I was I lived there and I've seen it for the 25 years. So I and I I don't I have to speak out because I don't want even the churches to feel that just putting a band-aid on the wound is enough. You know, it's what He they have called they'll they'll say, you know, what's happening in Gaza and we have to donate money. But that's like enabling an alcoholic. Basically, what we're just kicking the problem down the road and like I said, the situation is so become so critical. And even for his fellow Orthodox Christians in Palestine that if we don't speak out and if we don't push to advocate and change the political uh situation then we're going to have no longer a Christian witness in the land of Christ.

I mean, Israel often presents itself as a protector of Judeo-Christian values. And we hear this term used time and time again in in America, particularly amongst the American right, but also amongst the left about, you know, we represent a Judeo-Christian world. And so this framing seems to exclusively define the West from a perspective of this combination of these two religions and and and excluding others, including Islam. Um I mean, how do you understand this framing and and you know, the way in which it's maybe politically used? I think it it it is actually just a political artifice. >> Right. There is no Judeo-Christian values in a sense. Uh like like we've been discussing, actually I think we'll find a lot more um uh connection between Islam and Christianity than Judaism. So I think it was it was a device. It it really came into um prominence in the 1950s. So it was a way and I think it was a very a sneaky way of sort of equating Israel and US as sort of being on the same wavelength. And and just as they say that Israel being the only democracy of the Middle East, right? So both in a religious sense and in a political sense, somehow they're tied together. As just another false narrative.

I mean, Mebrahtu Gebreab, how did a modern evangelical theology about Israel come to dominate Western Christian attitudes of the Holy Land while the ancient Christians of the Holy Land almost become invisible when it comes to you know, people like you. Uh people who've got you know, a strong conscience, you know, about right and wrong. Because it it seems to me as someone who just on a general level believes in a faith, you know, believes in Islam. How can it be that there are religious people who turn a blind eye to to genocide and to to sort of the brutality that takes place in the West Bank? Yeah, I think it stems from you know, it's it's a little difficult for me to talk to because I I'm not from an evangelical or Protestant background. So, I it's hard for me to even understand where they're coming from sometimes. But so, all I can tell you from reading and knowing is that first of all, you know, you're actually seeing many Protestants a still small percentage-wise converting to Orthodox Christianity because the reality is Protestantism in its whole has rejected so much of the history of the church. Yeah. So, I think that's part of the problem is that these Christian evangelicals um take their information from a theology that was only developed in the 1800s. So, we start that way. But then the more critical thing is so that Christian evangelical in this idea of the rapture and of coming up was a theology that has nothing to do with the original Christianity, right? But then it was um captured by the political right. In the 1970s in America, these books became very popular. Left Behind Hal Lindsey and Tim LaHaye and Americans became captivated by the idea of the rapture and bringing on the Third World War. The rapture >> time, oh, the rapture being that that in their belief system Christ we believe that Christ is going to come but that will be the end of the world and the judgment, right? But for them it's the idea that um Christ there will be the rapture. They'll be taken up to heaven. And then there'll be a thousand year kingdom on this earth. And those the Jews that did not convert to believing in Christ will perish. All right. Okay? So and for that reason they have to build the third temple so that Christ can come. That's that's what that theology is all wrapped up in which is a distor- it's simply a false what we call a heresy. It it has nothing to do with traditional Christianity. Yeah. But the thing was that that it became very popular in the United States and the right wing the the preachers like Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell Mhm. they became linked with Republican and conservative politics so the power of those worshipers um got votes for the Republicans. So that's where it became popular in one way and that they can't even see the truth of uh what Christianity really is and what they should be following. And also and like we said before is too is that um America was sort of fell for the dream or the myth of what Israel was. So even even Catholics and some Orthodox will think well of course we have to support Israel. Not in a theological sense like the Christian evangelicals but in a sense that well yeah that was the land where Jesus came from. And and also too particularly Orthodox we we witness our faith by how you live personally. It's not aggressive and missionary so I think maybe that was a mistake for too many years now to sort of humbly bear what was happening and not speaking out more. Enduring yeah enduring the cross.

So your church brought in the Orthodox church. I mean you said earlier on about they've they've silenced you from speaking. Yes not I want to be careful cuz within Orthodoxy even I'm part of a more we have different sort of administrative section and then I'm part of [clears throat] the church that is more traditional. So, not my bishop, but the most popular or the the greatest number are in the Greek Archdiocese because of the and the Archbishop Elpidophoros, who's the head of that church, is that my family grew up in that church. We were very prominent members of that church. I was supposed to speak at My father was the dean of a cathedral in New York City, and I was supposed to speak there in March and was not allowed to speak. And in many churches throughout the South, I had talks lined up, and then the Archbishop did not allow it. I hope that he'll change his mind because the most effective thing is that people don't understand what's happening. I did have a chance before the ban came to speak at one church, and and it was actually where it was an event where they came later. They were actually in the church and the priest said, "I'm not going to give a sermon. I'm going to have you We're going to have a discussion in the front of the church at the end." So, it was a captive audience. But, he said, "You know, it was quieter or more reverent than on Holy Friday, a most solemn day." And afterwards, so many people came up to This was October of 2025. They didn't even know, most of them, about what had happened at Saint Porphyrius Orthodox Church, where 17 Christians were killed when an Israeli missile hit the church. So, they had They were so ignorant and if but when they begin to know, hearing it from someone that's been there, then this My goodness, why have we let this happen? So, that's so critical to get that message to everybody, and we're being denied.

I mean, often the way in which Americans and Western Europeans and just Westerners in general they characterize the Palestinian struggle is through the prism of a bogeyman, and the bogeyman is Hamas. You know, Hamas is a And And I think for most people in the West, probably Hamas, you know, is another form of Al-Qaeda. You know, it's it's a sort of it's a it's a radical extremist organization. I mean, have you ever met someone from Hamas and can you tell us a little bit about To be fair, I can't say because I lived most of my life in the West Bank. So, directly knowing someone from identifying from Hamas, I would say no. But through conversations with guys that are Christians, you know, again, I don't want to whitewash things. I think particularly in the early stages of a Hamas governing Gaza, Gaza, there were instances where they tried to compel Christians or or were antagonistic towards them. But in general, I would say Hamas is just a continuing continuation of all the resistance movements against the occupation. It's just colored by just like in England, right? You have the St. George Cross. So, for Christian countries, their armies have a color of their religion. So, I would say with Hamas, it's the same thing. The The main thing is to resist the occupation, not to compel or to force their religion on someone else. And I in a more It wasn't Hamas, but when I was at the school in Bethany, El-Azariya, [snorts] we had a couple teachers who were ran for office in 2005, I think, were the elections. And their party was not called Hamas, but it it definitely was an Islamic party. But I would have voted for them because their purpose was to care for their people. They weren't corrupt. They wanted to make sure that they had services that, you know, the the acts of governance, that people had decent roads and and and the medical services and things they needed. And that's what they were about. Right, okay.

And so, you and you didn't feel that the sort of temperament of the religious factions of Palestinian society was was sort of antagonistic towards towards others and towards the world and, you know, No, not at all. You know, I mean, possibly because it's in Jerusalem, which is such you know, the whole world comes to Jerusalem. But it also we're talking all throughout the West Bank. Uh, Palestinian Muslims and Christians are there, uh uh, living together. Yeah. Never did I feel a sense that ISIS type of mentality. In fact, it was very painful for me to come back to the United States in the early 2000s. I would go to visit the family, you know, and you know, after the Iraq war had started. And I I felt like I was in this bizarre land. The people they have no understanding of what they're talk you know, talking about. >> Earlier on you mentioned, uh, St. George's Cross. And of course in Britain we've got very very strong, like across the West, a very strong sort of anti-immigration right-wing movement that's brewing. And and they usually use St. George as sort of the symbol of their, anti-immigration, anti-migrant sort of uh, rhetoric. And of course they fly the St. George's flag and they're you know, it's it's usually hung around. >> what a St. George's flag Well, tell us. Yes. [laughter] And I just had someone say me today, we won't be able to show it. In front of every Palestinian house is a the icon of St. George engraved into the, uh, the wall cuz he's buried in his tomb is in Lid next to the airport now in Palestine. And I remember when I was there in September, there's a wonderful Muslim doctor from the Shufat refugee camp in East Jerusalem. He grew up in Lid. His family was forced from there to move to move from there. And he remembers as a young man, he's in his 70s now, the saint where St. George's uh, tomb is. His He was from there. His His family would go there on the celebration of St. George. >> Mhm. So, that's actually not your question, but it's just ironic that St. George comes from Palestine and is honored by the Christians and the Muslims there. Yeah. Yeah.

Um, we've looked in in awe at the steadfastness of of the people of of Palestine and especially those in Gaza as they've endured this horrific genocidal attack against them. Um, yeah, I mean, just tell me a little bit about um, the Palestinians you encountered and what is it about them that allows them to persevere in in such a steadfast way when when you know when when the recipients of such such horrific genocide really. >> I think that's that rootedness to the land and the connection. I think it is almost a spiritual connection because like I said what is the legacy? Yeah. >> Even if so there's that sense that permeates that you know we lived here and we will continue to live here. >> Yeah. Um if you if I may actually take a quote there's a young man who's a priest in Bethlehem. His family has been there for generations for centuries. He became a priest and he sort of answered that question is you know I pray for people to understand their faith why he stays there to understand exactly what they want for their own life and even though we're they under the most difficult situation the occupation. When people don't have freedom they're in the equivalent of a prison and that's not what Bethlehem was meant to be. I pray for God's strength for me to be in the place where Jesus was born a place where I've been to bring more people to their faith to refresh their minds and souls. I'm happy because I have the strength from God to fight for my people to fight for my church to get people to stay. And you know when I had the interview with Tucker I referred to a man who was sitting on top of his smashed car because when the Israelis came into Bethlehem there was wanton violence and destruction. Not they weren't fighting against militants they just wanted to destroy anything in their path so they would make a game of their tanks rolling over cars for no reason. So Father Issa's father I have a photo of him smiling and sitting on top of his smashed car. He just did it but we'll get another one and we'll go on. Right. So why that happens is just you know I was just with an I was at a talk in New Mexico and there's a family that's actually from Beit Jala the the mother. And she said something you know yes they've been in America for 10 years now but how much they miss Palestine. Mhm. And I think that's because the land still has something both in you know, how they sustain self, Muslims and Christians. I mentioned that before is that we put our trust in God in everything. And I think that's something that's so much that the West is missing. Right. >> We become so empty. And when you have a faith and a belief, um that sustains you, that you'll carry on. And also that world concept is still still strong there. Well, you come to the West, you may have a nice home now and some comforts, uh material comforts, but there's something lacking in the soul. And I think that's the kind of thing that keeps them that wants them to to remain in that holy land.

I mean, do you think this is part of the uh part of the that the othering that takes place when it comes to the Palestinians, you know, especially amongst the the left in particular sometimes, you know, we we've seen it on among some Democrats, Mhm. you know, for sure there is a the right wing in America have these uh xenophobic views uh some at least some of them have these views which uh and Palestine, you know, are taking they articulate Palestine in in you know, as they frame Palestine as sort of the other, but I would you know, a lot of the progressives sometimes I find them uh they're they just can't understand the religiousness of Palestinians. And for them Mhm. religious they're almost interpreting their religion as as fervor and it's a it's a form of and so they need to be liberated exactly from from this sort of liberal from this uh religious fervor and whatever. You know, is that is that a fair like fair way of describing >> I won't say who said it, but I was with a a Palestinian cleric uh not long ago and it he certainly he does goes he he speaks often and he defends the the Palestinian rights and he works with religious groups and it's been mostly progressive ones in the United States, but he also feels a disconnect with them because on cultural issues and the way they speak, it doesn't really relate to his life as a Christian and what he believes. But you make that alliance so it because for the greater cause of just bringing a political freedom to the Palestinians so that they can live as they choose. Yes, it's it's I wouldn't say it's a problem, but it's definitely there that they even though they're working together, um they don't really understand each other all the time. Yeah.

Mother Gabbey, can I ask you about your own faith? I mean, you're an American, you're a Greek Orthodox nun. What is it that brought you to to become a nun and and then to to to work in Palestine? >> Right. Well, the the main thing was even though I grew up in a my father was a priest in the Orthodox Church, so we were nominally, I mean, we were Orthodox, we were Christians, but it was really in college. I actually went to study political science with the idea of being a lawyer to work on social justice issues in America or Peace or Peace Corps. I loved the idea of going around the world. I'm 65 years old. Peace Corps was a very was something relevant at that time. But for the helping others was always something within me, but then I remember being a junior in college and studying political theory and something inside was telling me this isn't enough. This isn't the answer I'm looking for. So I grew deeper in my faith. That led me to become a nun. I started out as a nun in upstate New York, but then our communities I was actually part of the Russian Orthodox Church, but that's another thing now. And they had two convents on the Mount of Olives right across from the Dome of the Rock. So I joined I became a nun and joined that community because what I felt was for myself such a closeness. I wanted to vote all my time to thinking about God. In reality, my life should be in a prayer in a cell and not really being part of the world. But you know, I keep a quote. There was a a monk from the the country of Georgia. Only died in 1995. Lived under communism. And he said, "Woe to the monk or nun who does not feel the pain of his countrymen." Mhm. And so, that's always motivated me, too. Even though I'm called to a solitary life, um circumstances brought me to be seeing the the troubles of my Palestine became my people in a way. I remember walking down the street in Al-Azariya after being there for a couple years, and I'm walking home, and I just something just clicked like this is home. Right. So, those are my people and and uh I have to speak up. And um from from where you're sitting, do you think that the message is getting through? I do believe so. Yeah. For example, I'll be in Washington this week. There's a a network of mainstream Christian pop uh coming together now. So, that's just one other voice adding to And I told you I was just with members of Doctors Against Genocide, group of of medical professionals in the United States. They were just had 500 of them at the hill a couple weeks ago, and they plan on going every month. So, the tide is beginning to turn, and I have hope that um that we will work and change and and bring dignity and freedom to the Palestinians.

Brother Khaled Yasin, really um honored to have you with us today. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you for having me. Thank you, brother Khaled. As-salamu alaykum. Now, you've reached the end of this show, and the fact that you've stayed until the very end tells me that you truly believe in our work. Please consider making a one-off donation or becoming a member by visiting thinkingmuslim.com/membership. Now, your contributions give you exclusive behind-the-scenes access and the ability to ask questions to our guests, and monthly calls with myself, my team, and our guests like Sami Hamdi. Jazakallah khair, and keep us in your