Transcription
See anywhere in the New Testament a Christian in a church who has prophesied falsely? That doesn't make you a false prophet. So, we need to watch our language there, or we teach wrong things.
I mean, when we first start the things, I have repented so many times from doctrines that I used to teach that are on tapes, went around the world, and I don't believe that anymore. I said, "I'm sorry, I missed it." Well, people didn't excommunicate. They didn't bring stones to church, you know, and have a public execution in the front of the pulpit. So, yeah, we misinterpret, misapply something that's objectively there. How much more possibility is there that when something subjectively comes and we try to process it and interpret it and apply it, yeah, we're going to miss it. We're going to miss that Paul says, "I know you're gonna miss it. Don't despise it." Yeah. To despise it is sin.
Okay, Matt, toward the beginning of the program, you mentioned about red flags, and you said that there just tend to be a handful of red flags that people bring up every time I talk about this subject. I wonder if you could choose maybe one of them to speak into. What's maybe the biggest red flag that how you've responded? This might create quite a bit of conversation up here because I'm not sure how this will land. But like the biggest concern is you're going to have to do something with Bethel in 2021, 22, 203, 20—that they are, because of their music, they are—when you start talking about the gifts, the person that's just listening to Christian radio and loves Bethel music and heard that a woman with a Gandalf staff cast racism off of America and then they lay on graves and suck the anointing out of graves and they like, is that where we're going? Can I unpack some other stories just briefly so we represent Bethel? Um, so, so with the with the Chayon—that was an event that Bill Johnson was at. Okay. That wasn't a Bethel event necessarily, and and the the the grave-saving thing has been addressed. We don't be this here. We don't want you to be this here. It did happen, and it definitely happened to their leadership. So it's not like it just happened. It was like his wife was there. So unfair on both sides. You're very rightfully distanced from it. But to your point, someone's looking into Bethel, those issues arise, and and they will naturally be asking, is that where we're headed? Yes. Or so to do one that I probably—I've heard those from our people, but also the big one that there's a ton of evidence for, and and I would say they might backtrack, but but it's it's forever in print and forever—which is an unfortunate part of being in leadership—is the idea that um that God will heal if there's the faith of people around that person; believe with all their heart, that person will be healed. I mean, we had a church plant that had was nearly blown to pieces by some core people that read this book, handed this book out, believed this, had multiple special needs children born to them and then ostracized anyone who wouldn't just say the spirit will heal those kids. And I mean, it it was ugly fast. And so, again, I don't want to go off on that as much as just use as an example of Bethel's—the force of Bethel's presence—um, means that when you start talking about these things, that's what comes into people's heads, or something they read about that Bethel does, or—and and so I found that that's at TDC—that's the red flag that people raise all the time. Where are we? Are we heading this way? Uh, to which then I'm going to ask the follow-up question, what exactly do you mean? Um, it's too broad of a thing. Like you're talking about Bethel. So tell me what you mean by that, and and then we can address those kinds of things. Did you say, hey, like we're going to go out to the city and find people and pray for them and talk to them about Jesus? Yes. That way we're going to be like—but again, all staff—there's the line right there. None shall—uh—that line. You shall not. Okay. I love it. I love the way that there's a lot of tension we had to break up there. So, but I love the way that you address it with nuance. And I think that's so key for Christian leaders and in this space that we're trying to occupy of word and spirit. Everyone's always trying to get Christian leaders to castigate this group or castigate that group. And sometimes somebody needs to be castigated, for lack of a better word. Sometimes someone needs to be called out on something. But we do have to be able to speak with nuance. And so I think that's really important. But the issues been raised on Bethel. I wonder how other Christian leaders either have handled that or would handle when the Bethel question comes up in a congregation. How would you handle it?
I'll say two quick things. First of all, I'm not disagreeing with what Matt said. Let's not forget these are our brothers and sisters in Christ. We're not talking about whether they're saved. I know they love Jesus. They do. Their songs preach Paul's substitutionary atonement. Um, you all sang "King of Kings" twice last night. That came out of Hillsong. Hillsong's not all that much different from Bethel in many respects. I wrote an article, a long article in the blog just a couple weeks ago called "In Defense of Singing Songs from Bethel and Hillsong," because a lady had come out and said we're not going to sing those songs in our churches. You've been singing them here. You probably didn't know it. "Living Hope," "King of Kings." There's so many others. Um, so I just want to say, um, I disagree with a lot of things that they do there, but I also want to embrace them as brothers and sisters of Jesus and pray for them. Um, so let's keep that that balance. So other comments, go ahead. Jeff, Jack, you got any thoughts?
We've done tons of content on that, and we were in that same place when we called and strikes and say that we like that we don't—that we like that we don't—and pin on the Bethel subject. We actually—buddies here, our buddy Elijah actually came. Oh, I see back there. There you are. He released a phenomenal documentary to go watch called "Simprove." Go check that out. Um, but that's not there. We've addressed a lot of these things and talked them out. Um, if if you want to space our article—uh, was written by Andrew Wilson—that you you can look up. I think it's called "Don't Throw the Baby out with the Bethel Water." It's called "Bethel and the Bathwater," I think is what it's called. It's some pun on that expression. So, you can Google it, look it up. I think it's a fair treatment. Yeah. Okay. Um, uh, so, so red flag, Jeff, do you have any other same things? I think it should be helpful to follow up like what is the concern for people who are like, hey, too fast, or I'm not comfortable where we're going here because of XYZ—their red flags. Well, just to add more broadly, exactly true that some folks are going to want to move faster than I'm going to want to move, and some slower. So, I realize that, and that's going to happen. And, um, I think uh, you know, just a big red flag would be just probably their people's past that came from a charismatic background that they didn't like. And it wasn't a positive experience, and is this going to happen here? Good. Let's let's start with Jeff. Come this way. Give a closing thought. It's like you're a group of pastors that are walking away, and you want them to think about, meditate on X. Um, I know Matt, you got to catch a plane, so you got ahead. Okay. Cool. Um, so yeah, just what's that—what was that closing thought, meditation? I don't know; maybe the first thought comes to my mind is this—um, you know, we're very excited and intentional about pursuing the gifts, but that's not going to be the main thing with Edge. It's going to be loving Jesus. And so keep that. So I I think the best gift you could give to your church, your elder team, your, you know, your environment of influence is your heart fully alive in Jesus and to give yourself over to the cultivation of your own heart awakened and quickened to the things of God. um, where where where if you'll give yourself to that end, then you you'll be ready for the highs and lows of the other journeys that we're on on this, right? Um, and so you could go up all hopped up for your church um and and I would ask you to breathe a little bit, cultivate a heart that's fully alive in Jesus, awakened to hearing his voice. Um, and then let the overflow of that be what helps you start to lead in the context that you're in. Yeah. John 15:15, uh, which I'm saying the same thing both these guys said. John 15:15, Jesus said, "I no longer call you servants, but friends." And I knew that was in the Bible for a long time before it meant anything to me. Uh, friends are friends for for one reason, for the pleasure they have in each other's company. Our best friend is the person who gives us the most pleasure. It's the one we enjoy the most. The friendship is never about service, although we'll serve our best friend in a heartbeat if our best friend needs it. So, making friendship with God the main thing, enjoying him and feeling his pleasure in us. I pray for that every single day. Amen. Um, I would say this a quick reminder, and I'll talk more about it tonight. God is not nearly as freaked out by our mistakes as you and I are. We get so nervous like lightning bolts are going to come out of heaven because somebody missed the prophetic word or word of knowledge, or we didn't pray and see the kind of success we wanted, or somebody screams out in a meeting, and we we're freaked. God loves his children. He knows we're goofy. He knows we're weak and broken. He's not freaked out. He's not ringing his hands and pacing the courts of heaven. What am I going to do? Now, you do something like an ice and fire, he'll drop you dead on the spot, right? But we're there's that. But, but we're not talking about that. So, I would just say just dial it down and and know that the Lord will kill you—He is incredibly patient with us. And so, maybe we should be incredibly patient with one another in this relationship. Amen.
Yeah. I I would say when we're approaching the gifts, there's a danger on both sides of the road. And I think we tend to get concerned about just one side of the road. On one side, it's the abuse of the gifts, and on the other—and on the other side, it's the neglect of the gifts. And they're both real dangers. And on one side, it's gullibility, and you believe everything and all in on everything. And on the other side, skepticism. And in the middle, that road that goes right in the middle of it is called discernment. And as the people of God, we're called to walk in discernment. And that's where I would say what Jack was talking about. Friendship with God comes into play. God is on the road in the middle. He's not joining the the craziness on one side and the arms crossed, skeptics on the other. He's he's right in the middle. And there actually is a space in the middle. We call it worded spirit sometimes. Uh, but discern by just walking in. Yeah. Guys, I just say that um the Holy Spirit is not dangerous. That's right. The gifts of the spirit are not a threat. It's actually his promise to build up the church, right? Like I'm going to edify, build up, be equipped. We shouldn't look at the gifts as a liability. They're a gift that God has given to bless you and to bless the people you lead. So don't look at them as a threat. Have a be—have a big sovereign view of God and a very accurate view of man's anthropology. We're broken people. Broken people do broken things, and we can pastor that. That's our job. That's what we do. Just carry that same context of I'm going to start hungry, and someone's gonna say something hung groups, and I'm going to pastor that. There's going to be things—that same category—prophecy. It's not dangerous. We can do this. Okay, let's pray. Yeah. Write spiritual writing paper. Um, Jack, you want to pray for us?
Sure. Well, thank you so much that when we cared nothing about you, you cared about us, and you uh revealed yourself to us, and you uh caused us to be born again, and now we have a home in heaven. Thank you, Lord, that uh you want to be our friend, that you want to talk with us, you want to spend time with us, and thank you for uh the voice of your spirit, and pray that we may hear it better, and I pray for all of us uh that you would grant to us uh to be one of your best friends and put on our heart every day uh to ask you to feel your affection that day and to love you with all of our heart, soul, mind, and strength and our neighbors ourselves. We pray in Jesus' name. Amen. Amen.