The Guerrilla Chemist Best Peptides of 2025 (& His High-Dose Experiment)

In the span of six weeks of taking 400 milligrams a day, I had lost 10 lbs of pure fat while doing zero cardio, zero dieting.

You don't want to inhibit myiosin. You want to lower it. You don't want to inhibit and you don't want to act, you don't want to inhibit actin, which is like the protein that has all of the major side effects of inhibiting my stack.

I think that you are going to see people and they're not necessarily juiced up. They're just on these peptides and and maybe TRT and they look great and and I think that it's it's like you said, it's going to happen. You're going to see a leaner version of, you know, America.

Hey everybody, welcome to It's Just Bodybuilding. Big Ron Parlo here with Dusty Handshaw and the producer Scott McN. Remember to like, share, comment, subscribe, and ring the bell.

There you go. Thank you, Dusty. Remember immutant.com. Go to immutant.com. Get your hardcore ISO. Get your mind fk. And everyone should get on the gear.

Brian Moscow, the gorilla chemist, back for our second round. Is this round two?

It is.

Not round three. Two, right?

That's awesome, man. Me, me and Brian have talked many times about usually about go back years and years having nothing to do with bodybuilding. I remember the first time I met you, we stood at a booth and I think we talked about music for like 45 minutes.

Yeah. Yeah. You had the mutant you had a biohazard and I was like, "Oh, that's funny cuz you know mutant. Everyone was getting those at the time."

And uh I think you had purple hair at the time. I can't remember.

Probably he won't remember.

Something weird.

That's when we first met and I knew who you were and we were just chatting away. But we talked about music for like I think we talked about tulle for a while.

Yeah. love tool. Yeah.

So, it was cool. I was like, "Oh, okay. That guy's that guy's one of my people."

So, it's good to have you back, man.

Thank you.

What have you been doing? What's going on with the gorilla chemist?

So, um recently I became the chief science officer for Bio Longevity Labs, which is um a research and peptide company, right? So, we do things that are, you know, not for human consumption, just for re research purposes. Of course, I have a laboratory in my back. I do a lot of research.

Yeah. Yeah.

And um the it's a very cool company met um they they actually contacted me and I was very hesitant about it at first just cuz I didn't know that space enough and I didn't trust that space enough cuz you know who knows what can happen in that world and and um but uh basically there's a molecule called SLU PP332. I don't know if you guys heard of it. It's an exercise mimic right. So, it came out probably like two years ago and um read the studies on it, was finally able to get some samples. Everyone's dosing it at like 200 microgram or 250 micrograms, 500 micrograms, right? But I read the study and I'm like, okay, they injected rats with 50 migs per kilo, which is around 4 milligrams per kilo in humans, right? So if so if they're taking 4 milligs per kilo in an injection even if the bioavailability let's call it you know 20%. Which I think it's slightly higher it's uh based on the fact that it doesn't go through any of your CYP450s which are what like oxidize things right so considering that um I was like okay let me try I'm about 100 kilos let me try a 400 milligram dose see what happens.

So I did this for six weeks, right? I had just done a podcast with um Nile, right? You know, from the the trans transparent podcast.

Yeah.

So, if you look at my face in that in the reals and then you look at my face now or even when I posted that video, in the span of six weeks of taking 400 milligrams a day, I had lost 10 lbs of pure fat while doing zero cardio, zero dieting. Literally, I love Twizzlers uh cherry. Well, not not the normal one. Love the cherry.

Twizzlers. Um, Reese's. Love Reese's. Um, I I I eat carbs. I'm not a I'm not afraid of carbs. Uh, and I was working out probably about four days a week. Not like crazy, but like and I got I don't ever train abs. It's just I I have abs, but I'm not like I'm not like diced abs because they never they're not there's never they're not trained. But um

I just noticed after like three weeks I'm like there's something going on. Like this is working. This is not like the uh GW crap or like the SS9009. this is something different. So I made this post and and I was like, "Okay, this is what the dose of a of the injectable version is." Right? So I took the oral dosing of the injectable once daily in the morning and got this like phenomenal results. And I want to say, and I don't like taking credit for things, but I think I was the first person to really talk about high dosing this compound.

You're the first person I knew.

Say the full name of it again. SLU-PPP-332.

You're the first person I knew that that was dosing it like that. That's for sure. Yeah.

I don't I don't know. I just never saw anybody dosing it like that. So, I was like, let's let's see what happens. And I And you know me, like I only change one variable at a time. So, like I was just on a TRT dose. Had no other chemicals besides that, right?

Yeah.

And I I was like blown away by how strong this was. So, I made this video and then that had the uh they kind of reached out to me through a um one of their the guy Matt, his name is Matt Chris uh Chrisman. He's in charge of their affiliate program. He reached out to me. We started chatting. He's like, "Dude, Jay wants to talk to you." And I was like, "Okay, I don't know." And then um we we had a Zoom call. Then they're like, this was like a Monday. And then they're like, "Bro, can you fly out to Ohio on Thursday?" I was like, "Okay." And I met with everybody. um very cool guys, very very strategic. Uh I liked everything they want to do and um they gave me a lot of you know freedom of what they want from me and ideas and stuff and uh I was like I think this is a good fit cuz now I'm not really restricted by like disha you know what I mean like I don't these are all you know research stuff so I I have I have things I can play around with. I have things I can make like literally and and just see like

you're not a supplement company,

right? No, we're research uh only and so like I can you know derivatize things that are out and like you know make publications, right? So like so th this example of this SLU stuff, right?

Um, some companies are trying to sell it as like a liophalized powder, right? But it has zero zero solubility in water. In the mice, they use DMSO, right? And they're going to kill these mice in like, you know, three weeks or whatever. So, nobody's worried. And plus, they're using like 99.9% pure DMSO. And so, people are trying to sell us powder and and if you reconstitute it in water, it just sits there, just floats like zero zero solubility. So, people are saying, well, let's, you know, why don't you just try the injectable because it's not going to work. I was like, we'll use DMSO. Like, no. First off, you have no idea how they make DMSO industrial grade. You know, I'm not I you nobody here is ordering from Sigma Aldridge DMSO uh so that there's no impurities, but there's a couple bad impurities that come from the large scale manufacturing. So, like I'm not injecting that into my body when I could just take this orally, which I have done and know that it worked.

Yeah. But but I have some ideas about either to make it more water soluble or even make it like oil soluble with um some alterations. So that's one of the things that I'm working on trying to get.

Yeah, I was I was doing a little of that, too. I was working with some solubility and some compounds in my kitchen.

Yeah.

I might alter a molecule later, but I got to return.

Yeah, Ron alters molecules all the time. your left or right hand draw.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I finish it off my left.

I got a question already. I I So, you had mentioned, Brian, that the um SLU is not going through the SIP 450 pathway.

Can you can you expand upon that a little bit please? It first is like what does that mean? What is that uh CIP450?

Yeah. Right. So, CYP450s are are called cytochromes and what they do is they have um some type of oxygenase enzyme where they oxidize a double bond, they add a hydroxal group, they add a ketone, they do something to metabolize the molecule and then they they go even further sometimes to make like gluconic glucaronidation which adds a like gluc gluconic molecule to it to make it water soluble so you can pee it out.

Yeah.

So it doesn't go through that pathway. The major thing that I see from a chemistry point of view is there's a nitrogen nitrogen double bond in the middle of the compound. Right? And if you know if you know nothing about chemistry, uh nitrogen nitrogen double bonds when they're connected are kind of unstable because nitrogen loves to be free nitrogen. Loves to be nitrogen nitrogen triple bond goes into gas, right? Loves that. That's how like explosions, you know, happen and you know when you use nitrates and you know you form oxygen and then like nitrogen just loves to to break apart. So what I see happening is the your your stomach acid in your digestive tract is probably breaking the molecule down either at the nitrogen um hyd uh ketone group like the amid bond like in an amino acid somewhere there or the actual nitrogen nitrogen double bond. one of those few places. It's got to be where it's broken down. But I mean, again, I took it for six weeks orally and had these results. And then when I read the the studies, they even mentioned in the study that it seems to have a longerlasting effect after you stop taking it.

So like this comp this compound is making your mitochondrial more efficient, right? So you're you're producing way more ATP. Your uh oxidative phosphorilation is working really really well. Like you know KB cycle oxidative phosphorilation ATP like you're cranking out energy, right? The the main thing I noticed was a very slight elevation of body heat and we're not talking like DMB body because you're not uncoupling anything. You're making it actually more efficient.

So that was like the biggest thing I noticed from the molecule. So, if I had to guess, back to your original question, it's getting hydrayed at either that amid bond or that nitro nitrogen bond, and that's where the chemical is breaking down.

Okay. Yeah. I was just curious because I feel like I I've been told and I I haven't had genetic testing to prove it, that I don't do well with things that break down through the SIP 450 pathway. Um, that said, I do really good with SLU. In fact, I don't know if you guys know this, Ron and Dusty, but you know, I've been making like a huge transformation for myself, just getting him back into shape this year, and SLU has been a big part of it. Like,

I know I know you told me you were trying it out, but we haven't asked you about it since then, you know, and this whole peptide landscape is so crazy now.

Yeah. Get this, Brian. So, I've dealt in for like the last five years with the long flu, we'll call it. So, you know, a lot of uh you know, brain fog, um uh uh chronic fatigue, stuff like that. And if I train really hard, it would really kick that up to the point where like I'd have like three weeks of like not able to eat, you know, like really foggy feeling, just terrible sleep. Everything just went, you know, south.

So, I try SLU and I'm able I'm finding that like it restores my energy. Breathing has been an issue. I found it restored my breathing and for the first time in five years and now I'm not dosing it like you have. I've been running it up to 500 which 500 mics which I I'll get back to that in a second but dude it's it literally has I will say transformed my life like restored everything since I had gotten sick on that dosing man I feel like I get I'm not going to say like spun up but I feel like I do really good with that small dose. My mind is blowing and we talked a little bit about about this on DM, but tell the audience like you didn't experience any negative sides or anything like that, right?

No, I got blood work done before and after and um HDL was was fine. LDL was was lower. Fasting glucose was lower. A1C was the same, which is still like in a good range. I'm not bad. I'm like I'm not pre-diabetic or anything like that. Um, what else? like it didn't affect any of the normal things. Liver enzymes were fine because you know it's not going through that way anyways. So everything was my blood work was perfect. So I I don't know I can't see what mechanism of action it would have other than anytime you mess with mitochondrial you're doing some kind of you know ROS you know reactive oxygen species generation right so free radical something's happening. So the only thing I did is um I took uh I eat a lot of fruit. I had some pomegranate extract. Uh I had some ferine which is uh C60 which is a molecule that can take six free radicals at one per one molecule which is pretty cool like compared to vitamin C which is one.

Explain to us what reactive oxygen species is.

So they are an o some molecule with an oxygen on it. Right. that is has an unpaired electron.

Well, I mean like how is it happening? Like what? Yeah. What you know, just for like us.

Yeah. Try to remember who you're talking to.

Okay.

You got Ron and Dusty here.

Okay. Let's see. Um

so the part go when you when um when you when your body is doing from like taking carbs to make ATP through this system that we call oxidative phosphorilation the there's a gradient that causes ATP synthes to work and it has the protons on top it has the electrons on the bottom and that potential energy difference is what drives that force. And so when you're going when you're producing more ATP, then you're getting electrons from the KB cycle, you know, and and do you guys know what NADH and FADH2 are, right? They're just electron carriers basically. So they get the electrons that are generated in the KB cycle and bring them to get that gradient, right? So sometimes these electrons get stolen or taken away by another's free radical type species and then they become very reactive and so they're they're very unstable chemically. So, they're trying to steal Hey, baby. They're trying to steal um any any type of hydrogen or something that is like on a cell wall or somewhere to make it uh so that that compound is now stable because it it's missing an electron that needs to to for it to be stable. So, these are very highly reactive compounds and they're very damaging, right? Um, just like free radical damage, these are called oxidative damage, right? very very damaging to your endothelial system, to your brain, to um your heart and like just liver, tons of things where these species are just bad for you. So anytime your mitochondrial is trying to make more energy um you know like if you were taking DNP for one example um your body creates these very harmful reactive species that literally are so reactive that that like the first thing they come into contact with they will just rip rip an electron off uh so that they are um not reactive anymore but then they leave something behind that is reactive now and and that's where like this snowball effect kind of happening

and what could be like the say the real world effects of too much of this in our bodies of ROS

like I said um endothelial uh effects so like blood flow relaxation of or vasoddilation effect kidney damage neuro damage like because remember cell uh even like cell wall damage

you know like every every cell you know is is a cell with like a wall made of different things, right? So, if you imagine every time one of these these species is plucking away against your cell, your cell's just going to lice at some point, right?

Pulling a brick out of a wall every once in a while.

Exactly. Exactly. But like imagine doing that. Yeah.

If you're doing that a lot, eventually giant wall, lots of bricks, everything breaks.

The odd brick going missing. Boom. Boom. Boom.

Yeah. Exactly. So, your cells just become very unstable and they can deteriorate very rapidly. So,

so you're saying that's when there's an there's an imbalance. The mitochondria are making more energy than they're getting fed the product for. Is that kind of my layman's

or it's like a waste or is it more like

it's a byproduct? It's a byproduct of that. Yeah,

it's a byproduct of of the the total reaction of you know making ATP,

right? So like even normal

so anytime anytime you jack your ATP production in your mitochondria you also have to think well now there's more free radicals

more byproduct of making energy.

So it's not just 100% free ride. Oh my mitochondria are just cranking.

Right. Right.

So, yeah. So, that's that's the one thing that I suggest people just be aware of that there's something

that that that you know you can cause some type of damage for long periods of time. But I don't ever recommend people doing anything for long periods of time,

right?

Yeah.

Um, so I wanted to, you know, that this peptides, everyone's talking about pep I got normal people at the gym now. I got dudes that have never been to a bodybuilding show. They don't know what tren they don't know what what trend is. They just they hear kids and they're like, "Hey, I need some of this BPC or my shoulder. I should get some of this TB or I should try this M C. I heard it's great in the morning instead of having so much caffeine and these these normal people now like this normie breakthrough with these peptides and wild athletes like I know a guy who's a golfer he's never been to a gym he's saying hey I should order some of this BPC do you have a like this is you know really you know penetrated right so help us help us make some sense of this and I'm wondering if you can start where I think it all began which my first peptide memory was way back when we got hit with the uh GHRP2 GHP 6in

um, you know what I mean? And then the CJ we're talking what like 2004 12 or maybe even before that

2008 yeah like

yeah, because I remember they used to sell like MGF do you remember that GH and

yeah, so no one could get good growth except the you know generic Chinese kits back So the frag came out. Everyone was like and then there was the IGF LR3 which I want to ask you about and all that stuff was like peptide city.

What happened to all of those and are any of those first I'll call them first gen for our

There we go. I like that.

Are any of those first gen peptides what's their usefulness still or what do we know about them now? Um, are they still relevant?

Some of them. Yeah. Um, I think they kind of re I think they rebranded HGH's frag as AOD 9604.

So there was a some alteration to it with El with tyrrosine I think cuz and it's just a from what I understand because I thought the same ex that it was the exa exact same thing and then one of our listeners mentioned that to me and I looked. So it is that

that's Yeah. But like one amino acid different, right?

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. So like it's essentially that same molecule. Um, but like as far as the growth hormone ones, they've come a long way, you know,

secrets. I love that word.

Yeah. Uh I think CJC is still pretty popular. Uh 1295. I like the with DAC version, the drug affinity complex. I think that one works better.

That made it long long acting, right? is it just made it well it already was long acting it uh CJC is is a once to twice a week injection. Um, but I remember some guys were like with DAC and some guys were like without DAC you know there was this like

I know just like a think of a drug affinity complex as like um the receptor so say let's for an analogy let's call it your and receptor and let's call your CJC the androen right? So if you add the DAC, the DAC is the part that fits in the androen receptor. So like think of it that way for growth hormone, right? So now you have a um growth hormone secret that is has a special affinity towards the receptor versus not having it.

Okay.

So it's kind of just like a guided missile type of system. I Good. I always So

yeah, I did too. So I think I think that one's very prevalent. Morland people still use a lot, but they've come a long way like you said with um as far as like BPC is is probably everybody is on BPC and like TB500 for injuries. These are like miracle working things. And then like um uh GHK uh copper, right?

Yeah. are that one is is another miracle worker for like skin care, collagen boosting because it has the actual copper ion and people are always funny cuz it's like it's blue. It's like why is it blue? I was like cuz it's [ __ ] copper 2 and copper 2 is blue when you add it in water. So like,

right, if people people don't know enough about peptides, but um I went with B Longvity with Jay Campbell over to London uh a couple weeks ago to this um essentially like a uh not like an expo for people like in the peptide world and optimizing health and longevity, right? So all these people are genuinely interested in like peptides, what's the future of peptides, what are they doing, how can they do it, and uh just listening to people talk and then um hearing the questions they're asking, they're just very educated, like they really want to know what's going on. And I think peptides are like the the perfect blend of like things that your body is naturally doing and producing. like BPC is is from your naturally produced in your gastral tract, right? So like we're not synthetically making or this isn't something that's completely synthetic. This is something that naturally occurs in your body, right? So these are like blending in a way your natural way your body naturally heals with the I don't I hate the term like pharma, but it's like you know a medically Yeah. like a a pharmaceutical grade version of

as Ronnie Coleman would put it, we have better technologies now.

Yes.

Remember?

Oh, yeah.

Yes, I do. So like I think um I think that that in the last like you said uh people that aren't even into bodybuilding or anything that the the word peptide which people don't even know what that means because peptide is really literally just two or more amino acids coalently bound together

two yeah two or more could be I mean BPC is I think five right super short

um and then uh just people this word peptide just became a huge buzzword word and then there's clinics opening up and that the problem is that uh the FDA you can't you can't you can't patent these things.

So like you know the that you could patent these GLP1s right which they're making billions and billions and billions of dollars on but like excuse me a generic peptide you can't just patent it. So like that that's what's going to happen is there's going to be this I don't want to say war but there's going to be this this um issue between peptide companies and big pharma like I've I've seen it happen in my very short span with bio longevity labs um with my account got flagged three times last two weeks for violating rules about t talking about drugs which I've talked about drugs in my every single time on my page and I always put forformational purposes only and I'm literally just talking about studies and they flagged all the they post and stories and [ __ ] like they're like really cracking down on this because

in money on Instagram.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. It seems like they're going hard lately on Instagram.

Yeah. I mean Amino Asylum who I was connected with a while they got you know stuff happened with them and they had to you know close and and reopen and other companies I know. So it's like because this is a money grabber from pharma like whoever is controlling Meta or whatever is like flagging this stuff very very hard. So you know they're just we're just putting information out there. Uh, but

to to your like to your original question I think peptides are very key for literally anyone. You don't have to be a bodybuilder. You don't have to be an athlete. If you have an injury, you can drastically drastically improve recovery time through combinations of like you said TB500, BPC-157, some of the GH1 ones like epipomorin, things like that. Everything that accelerates healing in your body, like what your body naturally does in in general, you're just accelerating it. And so I I've heard plenty of stories including, you know, close friends that have had, you know, pec tears or injuries and things and they do the these protocols before their surgery, after their surgery, and their he they're all their um physicians and their PTS guys are like, "Dude, what are you doing?" Like this is crazy.

Just had a had an injury in his shoulder and his his physicians can't believe his situation now after doing what he did, you know. Was it like a BPC TV?

Ton of peptides and you know he did that and

so they're seeing doctors are seeing it too. They're like what the [ __ ] did you do you know?

Yeah. Every it's getting noticed because these these things work. We we know they work.

Yeah.

So it's just a matter of you know you can you sell them for human consumption? No.

So you have to get around that somehow.

Yeah. So, we got a lot of people that are I don't want to say as dumb as us, but they're they're human like us and they listen to the show and like this is this is great info. Like I'm I'm loving this, but I want to make sure we do like a real layman breakdown of the main peptides so that everyone can like get like a, you know, a punch through for each one and just hear like your kind of basic summary of whether you think they're effective yet or they're not quite ready to do what they're supposed to do. Do you know what I mean?

Yeah.

Okay. So, just pep peptides, not research chemicals, right? Like not small molecules, just peptides.

Yeah. Yeah. So, I'll just throw a few at you and you let me know like is this is this one going to stay or is this going to get like you know what I mean? What's going on? I used to like IGF-1 LR3 back in the day back back in the day and people would tell me it doesn't work. It doesn't do anything. It doesn't work. But I had a friend who was diabetic. He was on a he had a glucose monitor. He he was actually worked as a clinician with diabetic patients. So, he was very educated. He was super aware. He was the smartest diabetic bodybuilder I've ever, you know, been known. Great, you know, good bodybuilder. Got peeled like he he knew his [ __ ]

Yeah. He said when he used LR3, he used half as much insulin that day.

Insulin life.

So there was something going on. But what do you think it actually does? Is it valuable for a bodybuilder or is it just affecting his blood sugar when he says that?

So, I had this talk years ago with Patrick Arnold, who you guys, all every one of you guys know who he is, but for the people that are under 30 who don't know who he is, he is the infamous slash most famous chemist in our industry, the godfather of pro hormones. um you know introducted introducing three uh undetectable compounds at the time in the Olympics just like brilliant guy he was the original chemist guy and then so he and I talked I was like don't you need to for IGF to work doesn't it have to bind to like the binding protein 3 and he's like yeah I was like that's what I thought so like if you block it the LR3 prevents it from binding to the binding protein 3, right? That's what BP3 is, right?

It's just in the way technically the the attack.

It just Yeah, it just can't chemically bind. They alter it with what? Arginine or one one of the amino acids. So, it doesn't actually cope fit in the in the enzyme pocket and so it floats around your body. It's very it's it's in your system for a long time.

It's long acting. Yeah.

Right. But I don't know. I don't think it is as effective for muscle building purposes as straight IGF because why would they have ink as the trademarked brand of IGF-1 if if LR3 worked better,

Yeah, that's a point that I don't see why they would do that. So like every clinic that that prescribes IGF-1 is incred as far as I know, right? So I I think that which is also has side effects of its own compared to like growth hormone that actually converts to IGF-1 because there's no checks and balances when you're taking straight IGF-1 versus at some point if even if you're taking like 30 IUs of growth hormone a day at some point your body's going to say nope this we have way too much we're just going to stop the conversion of growth hormone into IGF-1 and it just cuts it off like we'll just increase somatastatin we'll break it down and that's it. So when you when you take straight IGF-1 you're completely bypassing that system.

Yeah. which is why it's so dangerous for like you know

that's what Meadows always say that's one of the reasons I stopped using it was Meadows was talking at the time about how he wasn't a fan theoretically of IGF1 and he wasn't saying not to take it but he just thought

you know I I want to interrupt because I actually have a client I talked to Scott about this that was using growth has fears of health in general which I love wants to make sure everything's in check then he came across some IGF-1 LR3 wanted to look into that. I sent him a long spiel that Scott gave me breaking down exactly what you just said and he's his response was good. Yeah, I'll definitely stop taking the growth. Now, I want to start that IGF-1. I was like,

he must he must not heard it properly then.

I know he's going to listen to this and knows that you are very very very respected in this. Um, in your opinion, what is the better route to take if you were going to take one of those? And if you were worried about health, which is the one you would not do?

I would much rather take growth hormone from a safety standpoint versus a straight IGF-1 where like I mean the correlation of IGF-1 and cancer is you know a pretty strong correlation as far as you know

um two there's like I just said there's there's no checks and balances right so you're you're injecting straight IGF it's going to get to your cells and and it's going to make them grow right your heart included M so uh tumors included you know growth hormone still has to convert into IGF-1 to get the anabolic effect right so there still has to be something enzyatically going on in your body for that to happen

right so

which would also sort of create a little bit of a time release effect compared to a wallup

right yeah because the if the halflife of IGF-1 I believe is very very short like like 20 minutes minutes, right? So, like that's why people were told to always pin it like in the muscle right after you workout kind of thing where like your satellite cells are going to recruit it and take it right up and and that kind of thing. So, like the halfife is super super short. So, I would I wouldn't touch IGF-1. Like I it's just not something I'm interested and and I've only I've only used growth hormone twice and just because it's so expensive.

Yeah. And you know every I've only and this is only farmer like I don't really trust any of these

right likewise Chinese sources or whatever relabeled whatever you want to call them. I don't trust them at all. And I just know every bodybuilder I've ever talked to who's used growth is like the 8 to 10 range is kind of like where you see like the results and not like the two to four maybe for like longevity or skin or something like that connective tissue

got some better pumps.

But like Yeah. But if you're looking for like the actual um growth like muscle building effects, I heard it doesn't take place until you get to like higher doses. And then you know if you're talking about you know serost stem which is like what 18 I use a vial. So you're using like pretty much a vial in two days and what that's what six or seven vials right in there. So you know you're talking about a few days or a week maybe for like

14 14 days out of a kit.

Yeah. And they're like, "That's like all the all the math."

That may or not have been exactly what I used my entire career.

Just give him a dose. He gives you the timeline. Okay.

But I mean, like, but is am I right, Dusty, with the dosing? Like, don't you need a a higher?

So, my experience was simple. Like, I used to run four IUs, you know, really pretty much all the time. Um, and then during a prep one year we bumped it up to eight and it was the first time in my career that uh my weight during the prep got down to like 256 and we started that at about 8 weeks out and I competed at 270.

So the lightest you got

I went up and like Chris was like, "Okay, you're really good at getting lean but you suck at losing weight." Like I just got harder and harder and just like the scale just started going the other way. And I mean it was undeniable like for the worst genetics for shape and bodybuilding of me all of a sudden muscle is round and 3D looking everywhere and I was like okay so you got to double the expense to make this stuff work and it was night and day.

Did you have any like insulin sensitivity issues?

I didn't. And the only the only thing I ever saw which I always

hard you're on low carb so it's Yeah. barely eating food at this point, but hard to get resistant.

The only thing I ever saw was my hands. I'd wake up in the middle of the night and have to like Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Shake the hands out cuz they're dead. But I mean, other than that, it was fantastic. And again, it was short shortlived during that time and then back down. But it was definitely undeniable. I was like, "Okay, four was like taking it because it was part of the plan and eight was like, oh, okay, this is very, very different."

What What do you think? Just a quick just a quick backtrack. Just one sentence is all I need. What do you think was happening with my buddy's blood sugar when he's like, "Yeah, I use less insulin if I use LR3. I don't know what's going on, but my insulin's use is down." If it's not attaching properly, is that LR3 eventually getting cleaved off and it's getting a little bit of something going on or what?

Yeah, I mean, yeah, the the LR3 does eventually, you know, get liced off and um it does bind at some point. It's going to happen. But what I think if I had to guess is that because of hold on because of like the cascade of events that happen when you take something, you know, like you have this happens and this happens and this happens. What I think is that

I knew I I knew it was gonna happen.

I saw it coming.

Yep. I I think what happened is that because you have this insulin like uh growth factor that's in your body, it is also targeting kind of your in it's playing around with your insulin. So what could have been happening is it causing his body to release less insulin. So that he's getting because you said he was type two you said or type one.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He was Yeah, he was using insulin. Yeah.

Okay. So he's type one. So he had to use less, right? You said

less insulin. Yeah. Yeah. He was normally 15 units. I'm down to eight like whatever. Yeah. So yeah, it was probably working synergistically to to cuz obviously he can't produce his own insulin, but there is a pathway where they can interact and you can have some sort of insulin like effect, which is probably what happened if I guess.

Right. Very interesting. Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay. What about um what about M C? Explain to us what M C is. give us kind of the layman's paragraph on that and what you think of that compound.

So Matzi is another um mitochondrial efficiency type of

so the same category as SLU in your mind for as far as what a bodybuilder would use it for.

Uh, this is yes it supposedly has some cogn cognitive effects. I I haven't tried it yet.

I've got it. I I've gotten the cognitive benefit, but I feel like I'm real sensitive to the mitochondrial enhancers given I probably have some deficiencies. That said, for me, I I definitely noticed it, but it it was no SLU. I'll put it that way.

No, it's so I wouldn't I wouldn't classify it as an exercise mimic. I would say SLU is a true exercise mimic like your body is mimicking exercise where this is enhancing just your your general efficiency of mitochondria. You're not like cranking out ATP like you are as if you were exercising, which is what SLU is doing.

With the SLU exercise mimedic, um I've read some stuff and heard some people talk about the concept of exercise mimedics of various kinds because there's it could be a lot of different types.

And do you still get and I I heard their answers, but I want your answer. With an exercise mimedic, do you still get the health benefits of exercise? Like do they see the mimedic part like doing the things that exercise does to us to make us healthier? Is there any carryover there?

I if I had to guess, I think as far as like cholesterol control, glucose tolerance or glucose sensitivity improvement, I would say yes. But you're not going to sit on a couch and gain muscle if that's what you mean.

No. No. I'm just talking about like health markers that they, you know, look at when they take an unhealthy person, then they make them walk and their markers all improve. Like is that a mimedic going to move markers on someone? I think this one will. Like I said, I got my blood work done and my fasting glucose was down. My LDL was down. Your um small particle LDL or which is like the dangerous ones th those go down as well.

Is that the apple? Apo B. Is that what that is?

Apo? Isn't there a type of HDL called apo? Like apos?

Oh. Oh. Um I'm blanking on the name. I just know them as like the small particle ones. Like you have like your HDL.

What am I talking about, Scott? Applebee. Isn't that

I I know what you're talking about, but I don't

I love Applebees.

Applebees. Yeah, Applebees. You know, that's very bad for cholesterol.

I can tell you this. I'm starting to see guys finish their contest preps now and we're doing labs right after, you know, everything. And we're talking guys that are, you know, running, orals, guy, you know, people that are doing the things you do in a contest prep. And uh you know for instance uh Ron Jussi Suma just finished a a a string of three shows um you know did everything as we normally would do in his lab work postcontest two weeks after the show looks better than ever and anecdotally I'm seeing that you know in multiple cases with lab work even improving it's kind of led to a question that we've kind of been throwing around on a couple of the other shows is do you think Brian that this stuff is going lead people to use more gear. Like, hey, I can get away with running a gram year round now. You know what I mean?

Sure. Got my health.

I [ __ ] hope not.

I [ __ ] hope not.

Yeah. I got to take a fear in this industry to get bad blood work now.

Yeah.

I mean, like, I'm trying to get bad blood work and I'm up to five grams a week. Yeah. I mean, as as far as I know, I I don't see any pathway of SLU preventing plaque buildup.

Yeah. Right.

That's still calcification. That's still going to be a thing. Now, we know

still got to exercise and eat right for that [ __ ]

Yeah. And like we know vitamin K2 helps prevent calcification. We know nattokinise helps with uh dropping your lipids and with preventing of plaque buildup stuff like that. So like yeah there's certain things that you can do but I don't think that um just because you're overall like blood general blood work is good that doesn't mean that you're not going to have these consequences of taking large amounts of exogenous compounds.

Yeah. Because I think sometimes people just look at their labs and they're like oh my labs are perfect so that means everything is good. You know, I'm healthy. That's a good point.

What What do you think if someone like, you know, I'm turning 50 in a couple weeks?

[ __ ] old.

What do you You look [ __ ] great for 50, man. I always I thought we were the same age and and I'm, you know, like I said, I'm 44. You look You I thought we were the same age for a long time. And you don't even have this gray like I do. You're just

I'm only gray now. And I got six years less than him. I'm 44, too.

Oh, it's there. If I let it grow, it gets worse. What what would be I already take nanocchinise and I already take vitamin K. Um, I got a calcium score done last year or sorry earlier this year and it came out 0030.

So I had a total score of 30 because you know they give you four numbers. It was all zeros but a 30 and so what can I do to just make sure that doesn't go up? I got nano kynise, I got vitamin K. What other things would be smart? What else would you put on a list if you were, you know, just, you know, want to make sure that you take care of your arteries and, you know,

you take um ubiquininal, I would assume?

Yeah, I take you take ubiquininal.

You take, you take, uh, arginase extract.

No, I don't.

No. I would look into arginase extract. That, that specifically is for like, um, left ventricle hypertrophy. I think it has more, more cardio-protective effects to that degree.

Okay. Um, something that is not over-the-counter that, that we're working on. Uh, have you ever heard of the protein Klotho?

No.

So, Klotho is a protein that your body naturally makes in the kidneys and tons and tons of health benefits. I want you guys to look into Scott, I want you to look into this. Do like a, like a deep dive.

It's a K.

Okay.

K-L-O-T-H-O. Yeah. K-L-O-T-H-O. Cloth. Um, this is a protein that is right now being investigated for like, the main thing is, is chronic kidney disease.

Um, but cardio-protective, neuro-protective, as far as like buildup of like, uh, plaque in your brain, like amyloid, uh, beta amyloid plaques, uh, Alzheimer's, uh, vascular, uh, endothelial protection. Like, this is the overall health, longevity type of protein. And it decreases with time, obviously. Um, this, when you take it exogenously, it actually is one of the only things that I know of that upregulates the expression of the natural protein rather than like having a negative feedback loop.

Mhm.

So, um, what's something we're working...

Normally, when normally, when you add something in, your natural production goes down.

Right.

This actually causes you to increase natural.

So, it's like taking test and then your balls get bigger.

Yeah. Or like, yeah. It's like if your body doesn't recognize. Yeah.

Um, so something we're working on, I can't, I can't get into the details. All I can say is that we have a patent on a specific delivery system to this because there's some other people, other people are coming out with this stuff. Uh, but they don't understand the how little you actually need to get results. Like...

Huh.

Like your body, I think, maxes out in like picograms. Like that's how you measure this stuff, which is, I don't know if you know how small a pico is. If a nano is, is 10 to the minus nine...

It's nano is it's 10 to the ninth. Pico is 10 to the 12. Okay. So...

So it's a, it's a thousandth of a nano. Is that what a pico is?

Yeah.

Yeah. It's, it's three...

Metric kids. The metric system.

Yeah. Yeah.

It's all based on the king's thumb. Um, so the, there's, I already saw companies that are, they're selling or they're about to release this 10 milligram of just the actual Klotho protein, right? And...

So it's like a lifetime supply.

But, but the, the problem is, this will be one, it's way, way too high. Two, it'll be gone in five hours because it, it, it literally your body is going to use it up and it's gonna have so much that it's, you're going to have like deleterious effects from taking it so much. And it's not, I, I don't know. I'd have to see like, like the, it's not an easy protein to make. But I will say that the patented version that we have is something like, that we're selling in the microgram dose and it is a twice, once every two week shot.

Okay.

So this is going to be something that is, is in my opinion, is huge. So I got samples of this and I would have taken it, but my father has chronic kidney disease. His, his, his kidneys are only working at like around 50%.

Okay.

So, I gave him my, uh, 12-week supply because I have his before blood work. I want to see what it does to him. He's, you know, 74. Um, you know, every, a couple of us at the company got samples and I chose to, you know, give it to him because I'd rather see what it does in someone who actually has issues because this is what it's meant to do.

So, I'm actually, I'm excited to see like the data. He's only taken the one shot. So, and it's every two weeks that he takes this. So, um, essentially I'm going to, we're going to wait for this whole 12 weeks to get his blood work done and see what happens. But that's something I, I would look into in the next coming months that people are going to start producing. Just remember that it's going to be, most people are going to have it expensive and they're not going to have the right dosing and they're definitely not going to have the patent that we have because our patent belongs to the guy who's making it. So...

Yeah.

Um, I'll, I'll, I'll keep you guys up to date when, uh, when that stuff's coming around.

For sure. I, I've got another hot one on my list that I don't hear many people talk about, but I went down a few rabbit holes and I actually bought some and I have it in my fridge.

But I'm like, I don't know. Should I wait and see if a research paper comes out about this or something? But...

I got a couple too to bring up.

But you're here. You're here.

You're the research paper.

So...

Okay.

What is going on with Epitalon or Epithalon or whatever you call it? The, the telomere one. Do you know about this telomere elongator?

Yeah. Um...

Epitalon is how I say it. Yeah. Epithalon. E-P-I-T-A-L-O-N.

Yeah.

Some people spell it with an H. Ephelon.

Yeah. Yeah. Whatever. Yeah. Ephelon.

Um, I, I think that it, it's going to have a very good effect on longevity if you're just looking for...

So it does what it says on the tin. It, it helps with...

Yeah. And I think it also helps with like, um, is it called senescence when you get rid of like old cells that are dead, like kind of dead or you don't need them? I think it's called senescence.

Like, basically your, uh, it's programmed death of cells that are not working anymore.

I think it also, I think it does that. I have not tried this personally, but um, I think it's definitely one of those compounds that if you're looking in the anti-aging, longevity, biohacking community, I think it's one of the ones that's worth trying.

For, uh, like you said, for telomere length and, uh, especially preventing shortening of telomeres, but actually increasing length of telomeres.

Now, I, I was telling someone the other day, we were talking about when we're going to die, you know, just typical.

How's it going? What do you think?

Yeah.

Dusty's like, "Well, I already tried a Wednesday and it didn't take."

Yeah. It was no good.

So, yeah. Um, but, uh, you know, we were talking about telomere extension and for those of you that, that don't know, it's the, you know, the little caps on the end of the DNA strand, right? And, you know, you get a, if your telomeres get worn off or whatever or shorter...

Shorter. Yeah.

You get bad photocopies of bad photocopies of bad photocopies and you get older.

Yeah.

Essentially what aging is is your telomeres just not quite copying perfectly every time. Right.

Yeah. You're not replicating your DNA as exact as. Yeah. Yeah.

So, Epithalon is supposed to stop that shortening of your telomeres or hinder it, you know, or possibly even lengthen them. Is that even the hope or one day we get there?

I think so. Like I said, I haven't tried it and I haven't dug into it yet. I mean, I'm, I'm starting to think of aging now.

44.

I found a forum. It was a normal person forum, a normie forum. They didn't know what...

They didn't know who was.

Yeah. They didn't know who the Olympia was going to be this year.

They don't. Yeah. They don't know that Hottie got his visa.

Yeah.

They know nothing of this world. And they were talking about life extension of their dogs through Epithalon.

Oh, yeah. They were working out body weight dosing based on what people were taking because like rich people are using this stuff.

Yeah.

You know, they're like the Hollywood people are using Epithalon and like it's...

Yeah.

So I'm, you know, I'm just wondering if, you know, is it going to be like...

Kind of come and go after five years or is it going to be like, oh, [ __ ] this might be like my dog's 20 years old now. What's going on?

I need that. I think I think...

I think, uh, I think that that is going to be an application. It's already an application as far as, um, people using BPC and TB on their dogs for like healing and stuff like that. So I can't, I, I can't see why people wouldn't do it on their dogs. I mean, my, you remember Christina that I always bring to the Olympia, right? So she's 12.

She'll be 13 in January. I mean, she just had a checkup. Everything's great. So, I'm, she's, I'm excited, but like, I have no qualms, like morally doing something like that to my dog to, if it's going to extend her life and make her healthy. So...

I think that you, the problem is...

Like you said, most people don't know how to convert doses. And so like, there, there is, you could Google a calculator to do it and it just, it, it just has to do with...

Your surface area and body weight and then what type of animal you are and and there's like a formula and it's not that hard, but you can convert it from a human dose to a dog dose or vice versa. Like when I, like when we're talking about SLU, I took the mouse dose divided it by 12.3, got the human dose, and, uh, which turned out to be 4 mil or 4.06, 06 milligrams per kilogram. So like you could figure it out.

Why did you divide it by 12.3?

Because, um, that's...

Uh, because it has to do with, like I said, surface area and body mass. So like...

Okay.

Another formula. Yeah.

The way that you, that you convert things, the, the conversion factor in, in this case, from rat, from mice to a human is 12.3. If it's rat, it's actually 6.2. If it's dog, I don't know the exact number, but the numbers change, whatever the species is.

Okay. But there's a graph you can look up. You mean like there's a...

Yeah. There's a chart. There you can even get a calculator. Like...

It's not just by weight. It's also surface area.

Well, well, it's the surface area that gets you the per the milligram per kilo and then you get that and then just multiply it by the kilo, okay...

Of the weight to get the dose.

Okay. The funny thing about some drugs, like people don't realize, not everything is just pure body weight. Like Benadryl, for example, if I take a Benadryl tab, I'll get tired and go and want to have a nap. But if you give Benadryl to your dog, you can give it like a half a tab.

Yeah. It's totally fine.

And it's totally fine. We're like, that's almost a human dose.

Well, I mean, well, like the difference is, um, obviously we all have different ways of metabolizing.

Yeah. Yeah. There's something everyone's not, it's not the same. Yeah. Like because, uh, I, I personally can't. Benadryl doesn't do anything to me. I, uh, I have extreme insomnia and like, I've went, I have, I have the same sleeping doctor now since 2018 and I take the strongest of the sleeping meds that they can prescribe and, uh, and they still are, I still have to alternate to sleep. Um, my ex could take one Benadryl and we used to call her Benner drunk because she was just like, "Take a Benadryl, get loopy, and then pass out." And I could take...

I don't know. I think I've taken like six before and it didn't do anything to me.

Oh, wow.

I used to give, uh, Christina one, uh, before she would fly at first, before she got used to flying.

Um, and I've given her as much as two and she weighs 25 pounds. So, that's not a whole lot, uh, to give her 50 milligrams of of Benadryl. It's just the way they metabolize stuff.

Yeah. It's interesting.

Hey, I got a couple more too that I want to make sure we bring up. What about, uh, SS31 while we're before we got too far away from the mitochondrial stuff? And then I bet everybody at home wants to hear about all the GLP stuff that's happening because I feel like...

That's on the, that's...

That's a huge, you know, I think huge factor as to why, you know, everything's gotten so popular in the research space. But yeah, SS31, what do you think about that one?

I think it's a great mitochondrial efficiency one. And I think you could, if you take that with SLU, I think it's a great combination. Uh, a lot of people that, uh, we deal with, uh, take those two in combination as far as to get...

Was SS, what was it?

38.

SS31.

31.

Not to be confused with, uh, the SS from 1939. I'm talking about different...

Completely different thing.

But great uniforms. Hugo Boss had his best.

Hugo, right? Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. He peaked in, uh, in the...

Hugo Boss peaked in about '39, '40.

Yeah. Yeah.

Those are people missing this joke. That hurts my feelings.

I know.

The first gen fabrics were the best.

Yeah.

They were actually real fabric. They weren't like cheap Chinese [ __ ]. But, uh, SS31 is is great. I think that the taking that with SOU is a great combination for mitochondrial function. I think SS31 is better than MCC for mitochondrial efficiency. Um, I don't know. I don't think it has like the neuro effect that we did. You talked about Scott, we get from Matsi. I don't think it has that. I just think it's more of the, um, efficiency of your mitochondria producing more ATP and an overall like healthier versions of mitochondria versus damage, stress.

So what I had heard and I, and that is what I'm doing now, once I, you know, the last, I think eight weeks or so, I started combining the two. Um, yeah, so from what I understand, there is supposed to be benefit for cleaning up ROS. Is that, do you know, have you heard anything about that?

Uh, I haven't done a deep, deep dive because I haven't taken it. I mean, there's so many things that I'm still learning in this, in this space because it literally, excuse me, it literally feels like there's new stuff coming out all the time. And, and I've been focusing more on like...

Special projects that, like, something that piques my interest.

Yeah.

But, um, the, the SS31 has been around for a while, or not a while, I mean, at least a year or so that people have been experimenting with. So I do, I do think it, uh, it has that potential to help, like what you're talking about, is with protective. Like that's why people are stacking them together.

Yeah. Yeah. I still think you need some type of like, one of the projects I am currently working on is mitochondrial specifically targeted antioxidants. And there's a few of them.

Okay.

So like, I'm digging deep in like trying to source stuff. Some of the stuff I can't source, some of it I can. Some of it I might have to make because, uh, we actually have this lab, uh, the other chemist I was talking about has a lab in, uh, China.

Okay.

So, I was, we were literally just talking. We're meeting up in Vegas at the Olympia.

Which is when I'm gonna get more of that Klotho though for me to try and...

And for me.

But like, we're talking about when I can go to China to get into the lab and like...

That'd be wild, dude.

But like, I have to get a visa and you have to go to a Chinese embassy and there's only like, there's one in DC, LA, and New York. I think that's it. You have to physically go there.

And like, so...

Plus the fact that I hate flying and I, and I just flew to London, which is like an eight-hour flight, and I flew Australia, but right in like 2020, which was like 19 hours. And I told my doctor, I was like, I need the, whatever it is, I need more of it. And so like my doctor just gave me...

He gave me, he gave me a prescription for some more like Xanax type molecules. And, and so like, I, I had to take that and, um, to sleep. And I woke up actually sleeping for a lot of the flight because I was so, I, I get so claustrophobic on flying. But, um, going to China to get this stuff done was, cuz like we have so many of these ideas and like some of them, you know, we could just, I, I know how to do it. I, I can't just go in my lab at school and be like, "Hey, I'm going to make this and then let me test it and blah, blah, blah." Like...

Yeah. They don't like that. Huh.

No, they, they, they don't like you spending, uh, school funds on private projects apparently.

So, but, but like something I was trying to s, two things I'm trying to source. One of them, which has a CAS number, so I know they make it.

Okay.

Uh, our sourcing guy couldn't find it. I'm like, dude, like we can make this. Like, there's, there's it's, it's there. Somebody's got to be mass-producing this stuff. And the other one that was super expensive and it's a [ __ ] like one or two-step reaction that is a 93% yield. I'm like, "Dude, this other chemist and I can do this over the weekend. We're going to, we're, we're going to do this." Like, I'm not waiting. I'm not paying, you know, $400 a gram for this stuff. That is a one-step [ __ ] reaction to do that that if you took, if you got, if you were a chemistry major and made it into like Orgo 2 lab, you could probably make this molecule. Like that's how simple.

Right.

That's wild.

So like, what, one of the things we're working on is like these specifically targeted antioxidants for your mitochondria to protect them. Not just general antioxidants like we talked about, like, you know, Ferine and pomegranate [ __ ] like, like stuff that actually hits your mitochondria specifically.

Have you, and now in that realm with mitochondrial protection, have you guys looked at all because I know very little about it. I have done a little bit of reading about Carbon 60, C60.

Yeah. Ferine. Yeah.

I don't know very much about that. Is that something you, and this is just kind of now I'm asking just a personal question and I guess if anybody else is interested too, but yeah, is that something you would recommend?

Yeah. So like Ferine, the coolest thing about it, or one of the coolest things about it, is it has, it could take on six free radicals with per one molecule. So like Vitamin C is one to one. Most of them are one to one. Like you have, you give up one electron, it pairs with the other and it gets rid of that free radical. But like this can do six.

Huh. Okay.

So that, that's like the main benefit of it is that you're getting six free radicals per one molecule of, uh, Carbon 60.

Okay, cool.

So that's why I like it. And the dose, um, isn't crazy. Like what I'm looking at is, uh, I mean, higher than most, it's so, it is a, most people don't know it's a powder. People think it's a liquid because it comes in like avocado oils or MCT oils.

I've got it in oil form. I just grabbed it because I couldn't even remember what it was called. I hadn't thought about it for like a month now.

So...

Yeah.

But like, uh, I, the way they dilute it in order to get like the dose you need, it's like almost a full bottle. So, like, I, I just went with the powder. I was like, let's just get the, the 99% black charcoal looking powder and use that.

Okay.

So...

That's what we're working on.

I want to, I want to, uh, bring us around to the big one, which is all the stuff.

So, we've got Ozempic, we've got the, what's the second one?

Tirzepatide.

Right. Zepbound. And then of course, Wegovy, which is like Gen 3 or whatever came in.

Yeah.

So for our purposes...

Um, Ozempic and that Tirzepatide, they're, they're done.

They're gone. Wegovy, there's no, like, they're out of the discussion for bodybuilding where it's Rata, Rata. Is that what's going on?

For bodybuilding. Yeah. Uh, specifically, like, like general public, people are obviously people are still using these a lot and...

But you could tell, like the Ozempic face and the sagging and the muscle loss, like...

Everything I've ever seen is is close to 50/50 muscle, fat loss in in the, the GLP-1 of Ozempic.

Is that just because the appetite suppression is so severe that they lose muscle, or is it actually like catabolic?

It, it's, I think it's a combination of one, you're not eating, two, you're not eating protein, three, you're not lifting weights.

Yeah.

Right. So your, your muscles aren't doing anything. You're going to burn muscle before you burn fat anyways. But the other thing people don't talk about is it slows motility, right? That's what kind of makes you not hungry.

Yeah. What happens when you have a steak that is now sitting in stomach acid and not getting...

The proteins get further destroyed.

And what's, uh, what else, what else is in, uh, steak?

Fat. Bacteria.

Iron, for one.

Okay. Yeah.

So you're talking about like rotting meat, which has metals in it, right? Like iron and, and other things you're eating have heavy metals and, and things in them too. It's just sitting in your stomach not getting broken down and so it's either getting...

To your, you know, digestive tract where things can just leak out because it's not being broken down and you're not expelling it in any way.

Or it's, you know, releasing toxins that are going to your liver and kidneys and all these things. Like...

So you got rotting food in your gut because it slows everything down.

Yeah.

Exactly. And, and so like, I don't think, I think that is more unhealthy than losing muscle. I mean, I'd rather lose some muscle than have...

Food just sitting in me for two or three days because, you know, I hear lots of constipation issues with these drugs because you're slowing down movement of them. So...

I, I don't know. That's not a thing for me. So like, to Evida, I just posted yesterday that, um, they were big pharma's plan to like stop the muscle wasting was to add a myostatin inhibitor.

Oh, yeah.

But they just got canceled before they even started. So like, there were two different ones. One was for Tirzepatide and, um, but they were using two different myostatin inhibitors, right? But you don't want to inhibit myostatin, you want to lower it. You don't want to inhibit and you don't want to act, you don't want to inhibit actin, which is like the protein that has all of the major side effects of inhibiting myostatin. And so after spending $1.9 billion dollars to acquire this drug, they shut down the trial like this week or last week. So like their answer to muscle loss was not exercise and, and eat more, was to add, let's add another drug, which by the way, is an intravenous injection. It's not an IM or it's not a sub Q. So imagine you have to go to the doctor's office and like...

Injection. They're like, "Let's [ __ ] pin you in your vein with a myostatin inhibitor that is causing issues." Like...

They're just adding, you're just adding a problem to another problem to, to like another problem.

But, um...

So like, with the, the thing with Wegovy, apparently, and I, I'll give you my experience in a second.

Lots of people love this stuff. Um, the appetite suppressant is not as pronounced. And then obviously, we're talking about hitting three different receptors instead of just the one or the two. And so, uh, increasing your metabolism is one, controlling blood glucose levels is another. So you do see a lot of body composition stuff and you don't see a lot of the muscle wasting effects from, uh, compared to it. And, and obviously, even in the fitness world, you're also working out and taking things that prevent muscle loss anyways. So, I know a lot of competitors that use it. Now, after like three years of of people talking about this, I got some stuff to try and the study dose, the lowest study dose is 2.5 milligrams a week, right? And they go all the way up to 12. I talked to some bodybuilders and they're like, you know, we take small doses twice a week, three times a week, whatever. Right? So like, okay, let me start at 200 micrograms.

Which is, you know, think, which is literally orders of magnitude lower than the study dose.

I took that on Sunday. By Tuesday, I was just felt full. My, I, there is an adjustment period from, from my understanding, there's an adjustment period to all these GLP-1s. But yeah, I, I already have problems getting full easily.

My appetite is completely dependent on if I'm working out or not.

And sometimes I can eat a lot of food and sometimes I cannot.

And I just noticed that every time I was eating, I would have to eat less and less food and I was still feeling uncomfortable. So then, then like, so I took that Sunday, Tuesday comes around, I took another 200 micrograms. So now at 400 micrograms, right? Keep in mind, 2.5 milligrams, lowest dose in the study.

Um...

The next day was terrible. I was like, I, I have to, like, I'm like, I am like this close away from stopping. My whole goal was to see...

Is this, can this be used as a nutrient partitioning agent at low, low doses?

Yeah.

Right. This is, this wasn't to...

Get leaner and...

Yeah. This wasn't a weight loss thing. Like, I'm by no means am I fat. By no means I'm not like diced, but I'm not lean. Like I'm not, uh, fat and I'm not trying to, you know, lose weight. I'm trying to see if I can get nutrients into my body, like a fish, a partition into my body, right? And then so after all these things, I was like, okay, let me cut the dose in half. And so I took on Thursday, 100 micrograms. Okay. And then that night, I just felt like [ __ ]. I'm like, "Okay, I'm going to the Olympia in like, I actually am going early." Uh, I think I could fly, I think I get there like the 5th and I'm staying, I think till like the 14th because they're doing a lot of filming for this documentary on peptides actually for the peptides society, which is cool.

Okay. So, um, I'm just like, I'm not dealing with this in Vegas. That is not the time where I want to feel distended and full.

Someone, someone takes you to a nice steakhouse and you're like, "Eh, let's have a dip."

Yeah. Exactly. Like, I just don't want to feel that way. So, I, I stopped. I stopped that experiment. Uh, it's on pause right now. Um, because I, I, I just, I can't, after feeling the way I did, I, I don't even want to touch this stuff. I really want to see how well it works because everybody is loving it. Every bodybuilder I've talked to is like, "This is amazing stuff."

Except for me. I did the exact same thing.

Really?

Really? Same thing. After three doses, I threw it away because...

I went on a trip with some friends. He made the best prime rib I've ever had in my life. And I got down like four ounces.

Oh.

And I was like...

And you were doing the same thing, like micrograms?

Micro, micro.

I, I was doing, uh, three a week. Um, I was at 250 and it also took me, and I'm curious about this with you.

It took like a week or more for it to come back to where I could just eat normal. Like I'd have 8 ounces of ground beef and 200 grams of rice and stop halfway through. I'm like, I can't eat it.

Oh, I'm not back. I'm not back yet. Like I literally, what? Today's Monday. I took my last shot, uh, Friday.

Yeah. So, I think you're gonna see it be about a week. It was like, it was a little over a week before I could eat food again. And I'm like, I don't know how you guys are doing this. And I mean, I'm retired. I eat four meals a day in a bar and I couldn't do it.

I would consider you guys rare. I started the same way. And I think I started with 250 and 250 micrograms. And I, and I was like, I'm just going to try to, number one, spend as little money as possible, right? Like get the most out of the least. And I got nothing from it. So I bumped it up. Bumped it up. I'm doing close to like, it's basically two milligrams every eight days. So I do a milligram twice a week. And like, I'm golden. And I'm one of those guys too. Like, I'm the first person that's ready to stop eating. My appetite goes away super. So I was super worried about that. I have seen it with a client of mine that I, that had similar issues. Like appetite just got zapped even on a micro dose. So you guys are out there. I don't know what it is.

Right. I've got some in my fridge.

And I'm like, I already only eat four meals a day. Like...

You're going to be down to two.

I just wanted to try it. You know, like, you know, all the contest people asking about it, you know, and you know...

That's what I did. I just wanted to be able to talk to my clients and I, I like firsthand knowledge. Like reading something's one thing, but...

Experience is another. And I was like...

I'm on the other end of the spectrum.

I'm, I'm warning. Yeah. I can't have that. I don't need you to gain weight like you do every year with me.

I know. Well, I'm white this morning, Dusty.

Yeah. I just, I, exact same reason I try, like I always will try something, anything I discover and like from supplements to whatever, I'm like, if I think this is cool, like I'm going to try it so that I know what it feels like and I can give my story of, okay, this is what this study said, this was my experience with it. So...

From, um, your, you know, science background looking at what you see the real evidence for...

What is your Wolverine stack? It's BPC with TB, which is everyone says. I've had people recommend the copper, the GU to me for the Wolverine stack.

Yeah. What else would you, would you say, or would you say it's not as important if it's just injury recovery like...

It, it definitely can't hurt as far as adding...

Collagen too, right? The skin.

Yeah.

There's also, um, we have a product called Cardilax or Cardamomax, sorry, and it's a increasing card, um, cartilage producing.

So that's another one that, that I would look into as far as like the Wolverine style. I think it's so funny they, that they use that and they're not getting like Marvel letters suing them for like...

I don't...

Yeah. It's funny.

I don't know. I mean, I'm assuming they have lawyers everywhere.

Oh, yeah.

It's Disney, so...

Well, it's not like they tried to use a KISS logo. I mean...

No one will come after you like KISS.

Oh, yeah. Um, I just, I think that the, when I first heard that name, I thought it was funny and then my brain immediately went to, okay, these are peptides that you have to take all the time and they're working. Can you use something like an adenoviral vector and these compounds to infect your cells to like epigenetically change your healing abilities? And I was like, that would be a cool thing to try.

Epigenetics.

I think that would be like a real Wolverine type thing. I'm, I'm, I don't, I don't know genetics. I'm not a geneticist. I don't claim to be one, but I think it would be cool because if you remember like the, um, the original, uh, myostatin inhibitor, like the AC83, I think it was, like from way back in, like, we're talking almost 10 years ago maybe.

Mhm.

The reason that one worked was because it was a viral vector injection, right? So it actually, the virus infected your cells and decreased the expression of myostatin. So that's why it actually did work in the, in the human trial. So like, my, my theory was like, okay, if you're taking something, your body's going to always try and break it down. If you get your cells infected with something that is deep downregulating expression, what? Who knows? Maybe something cool could happen. Maybe you could become Wolverine. Maybe if we had adamantium, you'd survive the the transformation. I don't know. I just, that's just, that's just like where my mind goes when I hear these things. But like, yeah, the, I think the, the TB and the BPC for sure are must. So, in other words, taking the, taking the compound is cool, but it'd be even cooler if your cells just made it.

Yeah. Right.

I mean, your cells do make this stuff. So, like, what would, but like, if you can get them to like fully express it.

Just crank it out.

I, I think that would be even cooler. But...

So, would you include anything else?

Honorable mentions? Just obviously, what about just straight HGH on top of that? Yeah, I would think I would think some of the like, I mean besides H, but even like, like the Epimorlin or the, uh, Sermorelin's, CJC's, I think any of the, the secretagogues would be worth adding into as well. You, you're not going to go wrong by adding a, a, a growth factor in there to help healing, right?

What, what doses do you think are actually recommended for BPC and TB500? The standard sort of generic one that everyone does is the, you know, two grams of TB twice a week and 500 to 1,000 BPC a day. But then you hear these guys with big injuries are like, I cranked,

You know, a bottle of each two days for, you know, or whatever. And...

I'm hearing that now, too. I'm hearing 10 milligrams a day, stuff like that.

Yeah. Guys, just bottle it, you know, like, what, what should you be doing?

I don't think your body can like take that bullish amount. I don't, like, maybe if you're doing 10 milligrams a day split up into like four or five doses, maybe something like that, but not a bullish one shot of 10. I can't see that happening. Um, I spoke to, do you guys know Dom D'Agostino, the coach? So he, we last night we did a live with him and and he was telling us about his injury and what he was doing with, uh, his healing stack was, you know, splitting up those higher doses into three different, like, first thing in the morning, afternoon, and before bed type of thing.

Okay.

So if, like you said, the standard TB is usually like twice a week, you could probably go to like two and a half milligrams twice a week. You could probably do five milligrams twice a week. I can't see, I, I can't see a deleterious effect of that. Your body might not use it all. So, who knows? But like I said, I think splitting them up would be way more effective than a bullish dose.

And how should people think of, cuz, you know, like every time I read a description or, you know, I'm reading about BPC and it's like the, the full explanation of what it does. How would you layman term one sentence, uh, to a bodybuilder, what BPC versus TB500, what, what would you class, like, tell us your classifications and their jobs?

BPC increases angiogenesis, which is the increase of, um, red, uh, not red blood cells, red blood, uh, vessels, sorry, red blood vessels.

Blood vessels. Right. Capillarization, right? Yeah.

Yeah. Right. So like the difference between actually making that versus TB, which I think is just accelerating the healing process, but it's not actually doing the angiogenesis part of it. You're not making the blood vessels. I think there's just like a synergistic effect. Right.

I'm not 100% sure on like why the, uh, TB500 mechanism is like, I think it's more of the, what do you call it, like, uh, it does help with like blood vessels, but like I think it's more of the, uh, anti-anti, what do you call it, anti-inflammatory.

Right. Something happened.

Beta 4 or whatever, right? Like I don't, that's, yeah. Thy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's more about the anti-inflammatory properties with that.

Versus like the, uh, increasing of like blood vessels. It does both, but I think BPC is more common for that.

Right.

And, and like you said, the most people, the thousand to like, or sorry, the 500 to a 1,000 microgram is a great starting dose. I think if you actually have like a true injury, you could probably bump those doses up. Um, but again, I would recommend splitting them down instead of just, uh, taking one giant dose. I think that's just, that would be a waste.

Yeah. I've seen that. Now, what about the, um, you know, I've seen studies where they drank it, drank BPC and it got through a system and, you know, so like...

The whole idea everyone's saying you got to locally inject this stuff. I just don't believe that. It doesn't make any sense to me. It's just systemic. It's, it is systemic.

Two...

So like the oral bioavailability, like a general rule...

Well, it, here's the, here's the general rule of thumb.

Like eight or less amino acids is usually okay to get in your system.

Oh.

The BPC is five.

Oh, I never heard that before. So the short chains more likely.

Shorter chain. Yeah. I mean, you have, um, certain transporters for like, you know, like di, like leucine, leucine, the dipeptide that like NNB makes, right? There, there's a transporter for like dipeptides and tripeptides. So I think the, the actual hydrolysis is the bigger molecules, they're the ones that that get broken down way more easily than, um, than the shorter chain ones. So like from what I understand, eight or less is kind of where, where you want for something. And not to mention that BPC is one made in your gastric tract, two was made for gut health, wasn't really made for like healing, but, uh, I, I take it every day for the stomach issues because of I've had like GI issues for a long time and I think it's helping me along with, um, there's another research compound I always blank on the name. It's like Laorazide, I believe. You guys heard of Laorazide?

Mhm.

Yes.

No, I haven't. No.

It's a, it's a, it's another small molecule class, but, um, it's, it's, uh, been researched as like helping with Celiac.

Right.

Yeah. Because I know the BPC guys are doing for Crohn's and colitis or been some success.

Exact. Exactly. So, this is a small molecule that they've researched for like, um, Celiacs. And I think, I think...

That because gluten is not just in wheat, right? Gluten is a class of proteins that's in lots of stuff.

Rice, you know. So, gluten is like not just in wheat. It is a protein that can be found in a bunch of things. I think that when I took my allergy test for gluten, it was not correct. So I think I might have some type of gluten intolerance. I don't, I didn't, I didn't test positive for Celiac, but since I started taking this product until the Reta trial, my stomach has been a lot better. And then I started taking Reta and I'm like, "Okay, this is never, this is the worst decision that I've made in a long time for my stomach." So, um, this, uh, these these new small molecules look very promising, uh, as far as for like people who have Celiacs and are looking for, because like instead of paying all this money for like gluten food, which gluten, sorry, gluten-free food, which I don't know, like, I'm not a huge fan of making food in a lab. I don't know, you know, how you're, uh, like these, like, we were in, um, London and there was a steak sandwich place that had a 3D printed steak.

Which is purely like vegetarian. I was like, what do you, what is this being made out of?

Yeah.

That you're, but it was vegetarian. It wasn't synthetic beef.

No, no, no, no. That's something different. And, and I have bigger issues. I have issues with that as well. Like, what? Like, yes, you can, like, we all know we can make proteins in labs and, and we could grow organs and stuff like that. We know we have that technology. Why do we need to make artificial meat? I just, I don't, I don't know the process yet. So I have to dig deeper into it. But I don't think that, I can't imagine that is as good for you. I don't think, unless it's completely bioidentical, which it could be. I don't know. I just can't imagine that it can be, you know, as healthy as eating a natural source of food. I just can't see that happening.

Yeah.

But, um, yeah, look into the, I think it's called Laorazide. I think I, uh, that I would look into those compounds for like stomach issues and, um, and, uh, KPV is another one, uh, which works really well for your stomach.

Oh, okay. So these are all just the initials of amino acids? Like, so like K is Lysine, V is Valine, P is Proline. So that's how they come up with these names, like GHK, you know, it's just like the names of the single amino acids and then CU is obviously...

Knew that.

Most people don't.

They keep it simple.

But yeah, because like, so BPC is not, BPC is actually a protein that it was named after, but most, a lot of the peptides, um, are just the amino acid, the one-letter, uh, amino acid nickname.

Oh, it's so, like, so self-explanatory. Yeah.

Isn't that hilarious? And then is the number like the number of aminos in the chain? It's like that simple.

HK4.

Well, uh, just sometimes like, like for, like, not for, like BPC57. No, because that's a specific thing, but like...

Um, when you talk, we talked about HGH Frag, which was a specifically listed, what was it, something?

Yeah. To, like, it was like 2191, it was like 18 something like that. Thought it was like the very end of the chain.

Yeah.

But so some of them can be named like that, but that's how these are. And then...

Like we talked about CU is for copper. So like there people that don't know that and then that that blows my mind too, which obviously is, you know, it's not English. It comes from like cupric, which is, you know, Latin, but...

I mean, it's still copper. Like it's on the periodic table. Like I, I don't know. Copper is something that's so common. And I would think C, people could figure out CU is copper, but again, nope.

I, I would not have assumed anyone knew that because I just don't have faith in...

I don't have enough faith.

Yeah. I, I mean, I thought the, the education system in Canada is better, though. At least you guys know the metric system.

I don't know about that right now. No.

That's some questionable stuff. So, what, where is this all going? What do you see like 10 years from now? Cuz I, I remember I often think about this. I had an old bodybuilding friend and he said he said, "Yeah, um," he said, "You're lucky. You got...

"The best era when bodybuilding was special. And there will come a day when it's not special at all." And I went, "What do you mean?" And he goes, "The drugs you take have dangers and side effects. And eventually they'll get drugs that just make everyone healthier." And then there'll be no risk and then you can take as much as you want and then bodybuilding is not cool anymore 'cause it's over with and everyone can look however they want and everyone can get ripped and everyone can get bigger and I was like, "Oh [ __ ] that day might come."

"Yeah. I I think I mean, we we've seen it already in, um, in like LA, right? With actors doing these crazy transformations and and staying on like growth hormone and going to these anti-aging clinics and, you know, you guys like like Tom Cruise is 60 or something like that."

"You see him sprint? He sprints like a 26-year-old man. I just I I just heard this story, um, on a podcast that when he was doing his stunt training for like one of the new Mission Impossible, he's like, I guess hanging on a building."

"He does all."

"Yeah. So instead of like getting off the building between takes, he trained his forearms by doing pull-ups so that he would have the strength to just stay on the building during takes. And so like he has a gym in his house and someone comes over and they start talking. He's like, he he could do 80 pull-ups. He's 60 years old. I mean, granted, he's like a shorter guy, but 60, he could do 80 pull-ups. Can you do 80?"

"That's wild. It's absurd."

"Yeah. So, I mean, and then you you see like transformations like, uh, Chris Hemsworth, right? Like,"

"Yeah."

"If that guy did not juice, like,"

"I I don't even I can't I'm not going to call [ __ ] but I he had to. I mean, he was a skinnier guy. Super lean, but like a skinnier guy. And to get jacked to play Thor, uh, you know, like the way he did and look as good as he did, he just doesn't look, it doesn't look natural. I mean, I just think that"

"Tell the story, too."

"He did look a I mean, dude, I remember when when did Thor come out? Like 2012, 11, 10, something. Oh, like Yeah. But I I remember it was like"

"Right when I got into grad school and I was like it was like inspiring to go to the gym. I was like, 'Dude, Thor's jacked. I want to be jacked like Thor.'"

"Just 'cause, uh, I mean, so I think with to answer your question, we have all this stuff like already in the works for like anti-aging and things like that. And then now if you're talking about people trying to break that, you know, that magical 300-pound mark or whatever, the, um, the myostatin angle right now with what's going on isn't the way. But we may or may not have something in the works that, um, is something patented that can increase follistatin, which in a controlled way to reduce myostatin. So like there's there are ways to do this without me messing with actin. So, like that's something that is interesting to me."

"Right?"

"If, um, the data that I've seen so far, uh, in the in the mice is really, really good and the guy who I talked to about this is taking it. Um, let's just say he's he's old. He's old enough to be my dad and he gained like four and a half kilos in like a month or something crazy."

"Nice."

"So like, right. So like this thing works. So So I what I'm doing is, uh, I'm getting an Eliza myostatin test done to see what my baseline is because I have no clue, right? And then that's not an easy test to just go to the doctor. You have to like get this"

"A bunch."

"Right? So, I have to get this done and then, um, I'll have some samples of this stuff. May or may not have some samples of this stuff and, uh, we're going to see what happens."

"So, I think I think, um, that and then, you know, the the days of making steroids are over. I mean, like we've kind of come across everything you're going to come across, right?"

"Yeah. They're not there's not going to be any new molecules in that. There there's no energy being put into creating those, right? They've completely moved elsewhere. Right. Like and then even SARMs are like a dying thing. They they haven't made a SARM that really works and and and SARMs are having all types of issues with, you know, LDL. The same issues that testosterone is having, which we know we have 20-year studies on testosterone. We we have what a few years studies on SARMs, 10 years they've been around maybe or whatever."

"Yeah."

"Uh, so I don't think that that's the route. Um, it's got to be"

"In the, uh, the other hormones that build muscle. That's the only other thing I can think of as far as like, you know, we talked about like a real myostatin blocker or decreasing the expression of is one way. Um, and then everything else that I I just don't see a new a brand new molecule coming out that's going to change a physique forever. Like we, you know, like we talked about, like, you know, bodybuilding helping dieting, making it easier and things like that. If you're, you know, can your appetite's suppressing, so you're not eating as much and you're in, it's affecting like the way your body's using insulin and all these things, but like I don't think there's going to be some magic compound that comes out anytime soon to to just make you a freak of nature like, you know, like a Ronnie Coleman type physique where you're just born that way and"

"Yeah."

"Stuff. I just can't see it right now. I'm sort of thinking I'm sort of thinking along the lines of like a lot more people looking like Hugh Jackman or Chris Hemsworth, just being way more attainable."

"Like, 'I'm on this, uh, RA and I'm on this this one peptide that does this, you know, growth stuff and I'm, yeah, put on 20 pounds of muscle. I'm feeling great.' You know?"

"Think about we we talked about we talked about when, you know, the late 2000s when peptides were first coming about to now where peptide is like a household name and there's so many companies that sell peptides. So they're very, very easily accessible. Yeah."

"Until like these Trump tariffs with China happened that's right now slowing everything down. Things are still pretty readily available and and, um, you know, you could go on almost any site and if you trust them and you ask to see like their third-party testing and, you know, how to look at it, whatever, and they have valid stuff, they're accessible. You don't have to you don't have to go to a clinic, but there I've seen a lot of these clinics open"

"That are willing to like prescribe certain, excuse me, certain peptides to help as long and as well as growth and TH and GH, uh, sorry, growth and testosterone and things like of that nature. So and then of course, the other longevity stuff that that we talked about earlier. You know, walk people, like you said, walking around looking like like lean all the time because they're on these peptides. And the cost"

"Is not crazy."

"Like, it's not absurd to to get like, um,"

"Like cocaine."

"That's I think that's a way worse way to get lean than, uh, than a growth hormone peptide."

"It doesn't help to sleep."

"Yeah."

"No, but it probably is a good appetite suppressant. That would be an interesting study. RA versus, uh,"

"Well, I think there's lots of bikini girls that have been dabbling in that, you know."

"Um, I just, uh, God, you made me just lose my Oh, um, people walk"

"Girls in cocaine."

"I like fit fit girls with cocaine, but Oh, no. I I actually haven't even I haven't touched coke in like 20 something years. I like that is not my thing anymore. Not good anymore. Not. No. Well, I mean, stim"

"The Mexican [ __ ] now."

"Yeah. But, um, No, but I I think to your point with how easily accessible peptides are, the more and more knowledge that people are Ron's still cracking up. The more and more people that are putting out information about peptides as studies and things like that, you know, people like Jay Campbell who's, you know, written books about this stuff, got to speak at this conference, multiple conferences, you know, um, our company putting out information constantly about just making people more aware. I think that you are going to see people and they're not necessarily juiced up, they're just on these peptides and and maybe TRT and they look great. And and I think that it's it's like you said, it's going to happen. You're going to see a leaner version of, you know, America. I would say if if people really want if like people can afford it and they they have the desire to do it, it's going to happen. It's not just going to be the elite."

"I made a prediction that RA or maybe the Gen 4 or whatever the next one is."

"Bioglutide is the Gen 4, which is the"

"We just got the broke broke it for everyone. So the these these, uh, these things. I I said, you know what I think is going to be the what's noticeable to us is a lot more people in great condition at level one show."

"Sure."

"Yeah."

"Um, because the main barrier, I know a lot of people like there's different people that have a hard time dieting, but if I look at all the people I've trained that had a hard time getting shredded, they all had a hard time dieting."

"Yep. And that was the my the thing I was good at. That was the one thing I was good at. Ryan had a hard time that like you could rise above everybody else."

"That's how it was done. If you wanted to get peeled, you had to be better at dieting than they did. And you had to suffer through those. You weren't eating the peanut butter cookies at 12:00 at night or snapping and having a I went to [ __ ] I stopped and had a burger yesterday, but I'm back on track. There's a lot of people that that train and do bodybuilding shows that have a really tough time dieting. And man, appetite shut off, caring about food shut off, don't give a [ __ ]. I can't imagine what that will do to the average level one show. I think it's going to be visual."

"Yeah, exactly. And then not to mention with like the amounts of gear that I hear people taking now."

"I know."

"I just it's it's just astronomical compared to like what, you know, I did at a level one show or like what a normal person's cycle is like insane amounts of gear for like young, we're talking about young, young kids. We're talking about like 20-something year olds and like not experienced bodybuilders. Like people just experimenting for the first time with these drugs and they're like, you know, 700 milligrams of this, 500 milligrams. Like, what are you doing, bro? Like"

"Stuff's way too affordable, man. Well, the problem is now is is"

"You're you're only considered honest if you if your doses that you tell people about are ridiculous."

"So there is that,"

"You know, like because they can't you people can't fathom"

"The fact that they're just genetically not as predisposed to putting on muscle mass. So it makes them more comfortable to just assume that Ronnie Coleman was on eight grams of everything all the time. They don't they they can't accept that he's just genetically better than them. You know what I mean? Because we all get this. I mean, clients send in their cycles and I'm like,"

"'You're 182 pounds in the offseason and this is more than I've ever taken my entire career.'"

"Yeah. People write [ __ ] on our, you know, we had Jay on the show and Jay was telling us he's like, you know, we rolled that one video about he's like, 'Yeah, you know, like in this video here, this is like a month after the Oh, I mean, I I don't have any drugs in my system here. I'm just like, you know, I'm on a break.' [ __ ] liar, liar, pants on fire. [ __ ] 30 comments."

"Oh."

"More than 30. There's Oh, god. 30."

"That one went viral in a bad way. Like, just [ __ ] blow [ __ ]."

"I will tell you guys 'cause I I had the same experience with Jay. I've told this on the show before, but I know you'll get a kick out of this. He came to my store, um, and it was three weeks out from the USA's and I had him at the store and he was like 280, 285 and he was big and, uh, he said, 'Yeah, I've been off for a while now. Um, I'm actually when I get home tomorrow, I'm starting my Olympia prep.' And in my head, even as someone that's in the game, I was like, 'This guy's so full of [ __ ].' Like, I mean, he is a monster. And, uh, so he left and then I went to the USA's in Vegas and I saw him in the lobby and he was and a tank top. And"

"This is weeks later, like three weeks later."

"3 weeks later."

"3 weeks later, not even quite 3 weeks."

"And he was insane. And I walked over and said, 'Jay, what do you weigh today?' And he goes, '315.' And I immediately went, 'Oh, God.' He was clean. He wasn't lying. I mean,"

"From 285 to 315 in 3 weeks. And that's when my mind understood there's different levels to this game."

"Yeah. And and he's one of those guys that eats 1,000 grams of carbs a day and just can process it. Like that's insane to me. I would be like a fat pig if I."

"Exactly. That's on prep. A thousand grams of carbs and he's dieting."

"Yeah. That that's just insane just how people are underestimating underestimate genetics like you like to your point. But if, uh, that's probably the future if we really can change your genetics like with CRISPR. That's where I should have went. CRISPR."

"If we can like really get this CRISPR technology, which we have, uh, I mean, they've already done things with where cut out the genes where you can't express"

"Just give people a little little 10-second what's a CRISPR? What's CRISPR?"

"CRISPR is just a gene editing tool, right? So it can cut out parts of your genetics that express certain things. So like if you can use CRISPR to, you know, take out a gene that causes you to release a lot of insulin or it causes you to, you know, store because you store fat because you have more of this or ghrelin makes you hungry or whatever the thing is. Uh, if you can really alter somebody's genetics to have like a super baby, you know how people want these like super athlete type kids. I think CRISPR would be the way of the if that ever becomes like super affordable and and we and they nail it down, you're just going to see everyone walking around with abs all the time and just jacked."

"I remember being blown away by, um, I was watching this program. It's like a nature program. And the guy was standing in this giant warehouse. Like think of the end of Raiders of the Lost Ark, right? When they put that box, they put that box in that giant warehouse. He was standing in like that size room of just filing cabinets."

"And they were to the roof. It was like something you'd see in X-Files."

"And he's like, 'I'm in the United States of Records or something.' It was like, crazy. And he goes, 'This is where we're at with gene editing.' And he grabbed the ladder, you know, the rolling ladder that goes up."

"Yeah."

"And he climbed up and he opened a drawer and he pulled out a file and he's in like a room of a hundred, like a million files, right? And then he puts another file and he goes, 'That's what we're doing now.' And he closed the drawer. So, we're taking out a gene and putting in a new gene. So, what we can do now is we can take a pig, we can remove the hemoglobin gene, put in a human hemoglobin gene, close a drawer. That pig makes human hemoglobin now that we can take out and put in a human in an emergency."

"That's wild."

"Yeah. And you're like, 'Oh, shit.' And this was like years this like"

"Ages ago."

"Doing that like 20 years ago. So can't imagine what we're on the verge of with CRISPR."

"But I think the the affordability of it is is"

"It probably cost $20 million to make that pig, right?"

"Yeah. Yeah. 'Cause I mean, you you can, uh, from my from my understanding, you you can delete pretty much, we know the human genome. So like you can delete pretty much any part of it that you want to. It's just a matter"

"Eye color, couldn't you?"

"Yeah, they they from what I heard is like this the super baby thing is like you can you want a baby with blue eyes and this color hair and this these features or whatever. You can do all this [ __ ]. Like that's crazy. So like it's all just it'll come down to money. But if this if becomes"

"It always comes down to money."

"If, uh, but if CRISPR becomes, you know, accessible to everyone and just like, you know, people can buy the technology and and do it like I don't want to say an at-home type of kit, but something along the like we go to Turkey for"

"Go to hair with to get your hair transplant. Maybe they also do the CRISPR stuff."

"Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. So, like if that ever becomes a thing that would revolutionize like the human race probably as far as like"

"Well, I think we'd splinter into the the haves and have-nots would be very apparent."

"Oh, yeah."

"Yes."

"The rich kids, rich kids are winning all the medals, getting all the scholarships out. You know what I mean? Like there it's going to"

"There's no no need for the inferior now."

"No, they can work at McDonald's, right?"

"Or or we just do robots. They don't work at all. Yeah. Yeah."

"That's the other that's the other thing that"

"Oh, the future's crazy, man."

"Yes. There's a lot of things that are crazy right now going on in the world."

"But whatever. I'm, uh, I'm happy where that that, uh, where I am right now. I'm very happy that we did this podcast together and got to catch up. I will see you guys at the Olympia, right? For sure. I'm very, very happy to have you on. We went way longer than we ever intended. Like"

"We lied to you a lot on how long this would take. I I I kept coming around to, 'Okay, I'm gonna try and let him go.' And then you'd be like, 'So then we got this,' "

"You know, or we could just do this and [ __ ]."

"I know, dude. I have some I have a crazy idea and like I can't"

"Like this. I was about to let you go, but go ahead."

"But like I have I have this super thing that nobody's talking about that I want. I can't even post about it because I want to be first to market to it. Okay. And like I am so excited for this this product as far as like the the strongest of the fat burners that there will be. And, uh, I it's it's like the the top of my list right now. It's it's in the top three of things I want to develop. And like, like I said, if I get to go to Wuhan, hopefully soon, I got to get a"

"Oh, of all cities."

"Oh, I didn't I didn't pick"

"Of all the cities in China. Well, where do you go to Wuhan?"

"Why do you think, Ron? That's where all the labs"

"That's where all the labs are."

"Yeah."

"Hello."

"Careful over there."

"I didn't pick the lab. This is where, uh, our chemist has all"

"I'm sure if you wear a mask, you'll be fine."

"Yeah."

"You'll have a blast. I've been I've been to Shanghai."

"China's unbelievable. I highly recommend everybody visit it. You'll never"

"You can't explain it."

"If I can if I can make the flight and survive it and go there, the top of my list is is this thing. And to get it out to market. I think this will be a game changer. I think, um, an injectable sou is going to be a game changer that I'm working on. Like just so many things that are like they're now possible that I can actually do instead of trying to find some natural source of something."

"That's what I'm really lab"

"That's what I'm less like excited about is like I can source things now. I could make stuff now, which is really cool. Like and then so I don't know, that's that's what I'm most excited about is like I went from like"

"Loving chemistry to learning about like how steroids and stuff work to about how supplements work to like finding natural things to getting into like research stuff and now like, 'Okay, well, I can do this too now.' Like I have the the the chemistry skills, I have the knowledge where like and I'm not trying to brag, I'm just saying like I went to school for this. I if I want to try synthesizing something that's in a paper or or synthesize it or change a derivative, I think, you know, why not?"

"That could be fun. That could be fun."

"Yeah."

"I'll I'll leave before we let you go. I'll tell you there's one more thing you need to add to your list. You a fat burner. You know, you're doing the the myostatin alternate route. You need to come up with something that's going to make me better at guitar."

"Okay. You one peptide. There's going to be a neuro-finger brain link. What do we, uh, the figure who's who? What do we need? Steve V's genetics and CRISPR."

"Yeah. Any of anybody's genetics? Just a little DNA sample. Throw it in the CRISPR."

"Okay."

"Yeah. That and then, uh,"

"Maybe my fingers will get longer and skinnier."

"There you go. Or or, um, my personal favorite would be the Jurassic World. I mean, if I could if we could make a dinosaur, that would be so fun, too. That is that is a pipe dream that you know I'll never see in a life. But that would be so [ __ ] cool. I thought"

"Yeah."

"Who knows? They might have one over there in Wuhan. You know, got to get to the lab and find out. A lot of things come out of"

"Next to the bat that pump. Yeah."

"Well, thanks, man. We appreciate having you on. You know, uh, I I was excited because I had a lot of questions. I mean, this peptide stuff, there's it's it's a lot for people to take in. Like,"

"It's overwhelming."

"There's a lot of them."

"Yeah. I mean, and those are just peptides. There's like tons of small molecules, too, that we didn't even talk about. So, like this whole world, like you said, it's just it's becoming household name. Pep, the word peptide, every, like you said, the normies, whatever you call them, they know it. They know these words."

"I'm interested I'm interested in how anytime anything came out before it was, 'Oh, that's unnatural. I won't take I'm like those bodybuilders.' But now like these regular people, they want to take everything they get their hands on."

"Yeah."

"Yeah."

"It's really interesting."

"Yeah. It's, like I said, it's some of the peptides because they are naturally, some of them are naturally occurring and stuff like that. You really are just signaling your body to make more of something or less. I mean, [ __ ] insulin is a peptide. Growth hormone is a peptide, you know, like these are all natural things. Every enzyme in your body is a protein, which is just a peptide that in, you know, that takes a shape, right? So, uh, but yeah, as far as them being synthetic, yes, they are synthetically made. So, you're not like deriving this peptide from a plant or something. But,"

"Yeah. Well, thanks, man. We appreciate you."

"Of course. Of course. Everybody remember, like, share, subscribe, comment, and ring the bell."

"And remember, immutant.com. Get your hardcore ISO, get your mind FK, and everyone should get on the gear. Big Ron and Dusty are your codes. Come see us at the Olympia. We're going to be at the booth hanging out. Brian, are you at a booth or are you just like working? You're busy the whole weekend."

"We're We're walking around. We're doing a, like I talk about, we're doing this documentary on peptides. Lots of filming and stuff like that. So, come see us at Mutant."

"We'll definitely We'll definitely be at the expo for sure."

"Scott's going to be at the booth, too. He's going to come and hang out with us and have a good time. So, it'd be great. We're not podcasting or nothing, but we're going to have some fun."

"So, come and hang out."

"For sure. Definitely say I haven't been to an Olympia in a few years now since I think"

"Before before it actually went to Florida for the during COVID. I don't think I've gone. I went to the Arnold after that, but I haven't been to the Olympia."

"Are you going to bring Christina?"

"I can't because I'm going to be there"

"Too long."

"For this filming thing. And there's this schedule. We don't I don't have a schedule yet. And then if we're going out in Vegas at night, I can't just leave her in like the hotel by herself. She'll freak out."

"No, no, no. So that that's if if it were just me, you know, like of course I would bring her. But"

"Does she go to grandma's house? Where did she go?"

"Yeah, her and my other two dogs, they all go to, uh, grandma and grandpa's house in Chattanooga."

"That's awesome."

"So, yeah, they they they watched them when I went to London, but the they have a yard that's awesome. They love it. They run around. Um, so they have fun."

"Okay."

"So, yeah, no Christina this year, but"

"It was a full, uh, dog crew for this episode. Thanks again, the gorilla chemist, you know, gorilla chemist Brian Moscow with a K. The coolest way to spell Moscow."

"And, um, yeah,"

"'Cause in Russia, C is an S sound."

"Yeah. Yeah. Yeah."

"If you remember those old, uh, Russian sustanon,"

"Right? Oh, yeah."

"Um, the Cytaho 250s."

"I don't know if that's how it was said, but it you said on the back it was C Y T A H O H."

"Yeah. And I"

"They weren't H's, but yeah."

"They weren't hes. What are they?"

"The Russian acrylic letter. It's There's a Yeah, they're all Russian acrylic."

"'Cause I called them Cyto. That was my nickname, the Cyto hose. Hey, you got those Cyto pop-outs? I used to have lots of Cyto."

"Yeah. So that that's like like if if you Musk Muskva in Russian, you spell it with a with a K because the C is obviously an S. So like that's where that comes from."

"Ah, okay. Okay. Okay. Hey, thanks buddy. Good to have you on. We always get smarter when you're on as opposed to when it's just us. I sometimes feel"

"It does maybe even"

"The other way. I don't know."

"So, thanks buddy. Thanks everybody. And remember,"

"Thank you for having me."

"It's just bodybuilding. [Music]"

"Wanted the like new finish one, but the road worn one's super cool. I I personally dig the road worn, like the relic look because it's supposed to be like a '66, you know, but I get both I get both sides of the coin, you know? Something that looks brand new is is cool. Like my, uh, my Mustang is cool. Looks better finished."

"What What's your Mustang look? What color is your Mustang?"

"Oh, it's the Sky Stang. It's the"

"Oh, you have the Sky Stang."

"Oh, yeah. Hold on. Give me"

"You got the cherry the cherry pickguard on it just like Cobain had, too."

"Oh, yeah."

"Obviously. Bro, you're talking about my idol since I'm 12 years old."

"Yeah, you got a humbucker in there, too. You do. You got the Yeah, you got the Sky Stang"

"From the In Utero tour. Yeah."

"And then, you know,"

"So those are So, just for Let's give Dusty and Scott. Hold that for a sec. Let's give Dusty and Scott just a little lesson here."

"So, this is Kurt Cobain's most famous guitar. He had this weird [ __ ] used Jaguar that was all modded up and [ __ ] up. He bought it off a used"

"Martin Jenner apparently was a left-handed guitarist from some Christian rock band."

"And they think it belonged to the guitar player from the Everly Brothers. Really? I didn't know that. All the other stuff I"

"It came He he bought it used on a fan."

"Oh, yeah, I know."

"So like all this stuff is modded."

"Yeah, it's all modded and rewired and Yeah. And so they did the Cobain issue, the one on the wall there. They did they did this guitar the way Kurt had it wired, like the switches do things that are he just wanted it switched."

"So it's the neck, the neck too. It's got this, you know, Stratocaster size."

"It's got a Strat neck on it. Yeah, it's a really it's a Frankenstein guitar."

"It is. It's and I actually it's one of my favorites. It's heavier. This one is a lot lighter than the Mustang."

"And if you see it's got like the huge headstock compared to the other one."

"So my SG, the SG is way lighter than the than the, uh, Jaguar."

"Oh, yeah. The Jaguar."

"A pound."

"Yeah, I I like it personally. Um, but again, this is super light. Like if you're just trying to like"

"Punk rock, swing around. I really like this one."

"Yeah. So Cobain, this was his Nevermind tour guitar. So if you see any footage from the Nevermind tour, which was like, you know, the big blow-up era, he's playing this Jaguar a lot. His main"

"Or this one. Yeah, that's that's that's what he recorded the album Nevermind with is that one with that. And that that sticker on there is like that's the sticker Kurt had. There's a guy that reproduces them."

"Nice. And, uh,"

"I remember that sticker. And that Strat, that Strat actually did get smashed"

"And destroyed."

"So not Yo, this one got destroyed twice. The one"

"Put new necks on it."

"Yeah. So like the the Fernandez neck was the last one, but this one is actually like a Strat. So I made this as a project. I tried to do it as close as possible."

"It looks like it. From what I remember, I hadn't seen it in a while."

"Oh, it's awesome. It looks It looks great. Your guitars look awesome. And then the blue one was the Sky Stang. That was Cobain's favorite guitar on the In Utero tour, which was his last tour, right?"

"Cool."

"You got them all, dude."

"Yeah. So, that's So, the unique thing about that is you've got that's a right-handed guitar that Kurt flipped over and restrung. So that's why you've got it that way with the pickguard on top 'cause it's [ __ ] up 'cause Kurt was all were [ __ ] up."

"Yeah. So So back So this is not a Martin. This is a Sigma. So you just made it look like"

"But it's a it's a '79 Sigma. It's not like a new one."

"Yeah."

"And these are actual vintage, um, pickups. This is actually the vintage Barini."

"It looks perfect, dude."

"Dude, I it's I I think it's as close as you can get to a a lefty one that I've ever seen anyone do. And it sounds [ __ ] like amazing."

"Yeah."

"But, um, Yeah. So I just I'm working on it. I have the Univox too, which is"

"Mhm."

"Yeah. What is it? White. Do you have a white one? What do you have? Red one."

"No, I got this the sunburst with the turquoise."

"Oh, the tortoise shell. I mean,"

"He had a bunch. Kurt Kurt liked cheap guitars 'cause he he liked to beat them up and put new necks on them all the time. So he bought cheap and then it was hard to find left-handed guitars."

"Exactly. He's like And he So these were all cheap guitars,"

"Japanese Fenders and stuff like he didn't have any Gibson US guitars or anything. Just he's buying them in secondhand shops when he's overseas and there, you know, he needs another guitar and like all Kurt's guitars were [ __ ] mutant. They were all weird and they all lasted like four to six months except the Jag never got"

"He didn't use guitars that had humbuckers in them. He used single coil guitars and then put humbuckers in them, which all the time."

"Yeah. Which wasn't a thing."

"No. Um,"

"So like a Strat with a humbucker in it. You're like that's like a weird looking. This is weird. Yeah. These guys don't know what we're talking"

"I'm following along. Not all of it, but I'm following along."

"It's okay. We're getting the guest. See, I'm just buttering up the guests and getting them comfortable before we start there. Now we get in and we're going to [ __ ]."

"Everybody recognize the quote."

"Yeah. Yeah. What a great line. I have, uh, one Nirvana shirt that I literally never wore. My aunt got it for me for my birthday and this would have been like in '96 or something."

"No, it still have it."

"Yeah. So, here's the deal. It was the, uh, the Unplugged t-shirt."

"So, it was like the picture of him on stage and it, you know, says, you know, MTV Unplugged Nirvana, live or whatever. I, uh, I was like, 'This isn't cool.' I wanted the cool shirts, like the band album shirts. So, I was like, I felt like at the time I was like, 'Man, only the posers would wear this shirt,' "

"But I never got rid of it. So, I still have it folded up."

"And it's worth like hundreds of dollars."

"It's worth like 200 bucks, man. I looked it up the other month. I was like, 'Holy [ __ ], this thing's worth money now.'"

"Dude, it's crazy 'cause, uh, I see kids like when I'm on campus sometimes, you know, 20 years old, 19 wearing Nirvana shirts. I'm like, 'Yeah,"

"You weren't even alive when he died."

"Yeah. Like that's how that's how like trendy or popular."

"But it's cool when they know the music. There's a kid at my gym that plays guitar and"

"He's Toby's like, 'Yeah, I got the whole Nevermind album now. I can play the whole thing.' And I'm like, 'That's [ __ ] awesome. You're like"

"I mean, I'm sure it inspired me to pick up a guitar. And like I don't know. I I'm left-handed and I do everything left-handed. And I try initially tried to play right-handed 'cause it was, you know, common. You could find guitars. It just wasn't doing it for me. And I and I bet if Kurt Cobain didn't play left-handed, I probably would have stuck it out. But he was such an influence on me. And I and I loved I I truly like am hugely biased that I'm left-handed. I think it has a huge influence on like my life in general. So, I think if if, um, if he hadn't been left-handed, I probably wouldn't definitely wouldn't have all these lefty guitars. Wouldn't try to like see what I can do. But, I am so much more comfortable playing left-handed. It was It was crazy 'cause you would think your stronger hand would be better at fretting, but for me, it's so much easier to keep rhythm."

"Yeah. Yeah, I get it. Yeah. It's like me. I'm I'm right-handed."

"So Dusty Dusty's a hockey,"

"Which if I if I have my left hand"

"Down on the stick, that shooting left-handed. Yeah."

"So I'm right-handed, but I I shoot left-handed in hockey for sure."

"But so then do you feel left-handed? 'Cause it's the same thing."

"No."

"Huh."

"That don't make sense."

"If you give me a hockey stick, if you give me a hockey stick and you tell me like, 'Hey, take some shots at this net.' I will like my wrist shot is left. Snap. Snap."

"Yeah. So like, you know, I play lacrosse, right? And so lacrosse is an ambidextrous sport, but I'm I play goalie, so I play left-handed, right? So you hold it like this, you I catch it, I throw left-handed. Very hard for a goalie, really, to like be ambidextrous. But when I played hockey first, because of the like the motion you're talking about of the left hand being on the bottom, I played goalie right-handed with my left hand being the glove, which is odd because, you know, I don't throw right-handed, right?"

"But just because of it was easier for me to like move a puck with the stick. Yeah."

"So that's that and like brushing my teeth are oddly enough, are the two things I use my right hand."

"But"

"But I read I read this cool study years ago that if you do something with your non-dominant hand once a day,"

"Yes."

"He knows something with your it it it causes like your brain to use parts of it that haven't been used before. I quite often will try to brush my teeth like I'll Okay, I'm just gonna finish off with my left hand. Like I do that."

"You finish off with your left hand."

"Yeah. Yeah. I get it right to the right to where I'm stranger, right? I'm almost done and then I finish with my left hand. Then I can say that I'm ambidextrous."

"There you go."

"Oh,"

"The last five seconds."

"Yeah."

"This will get dropped in with no context."

"Yeah. Okay."

"Yeah, exactly."

"Well, it was good talking guitars, man. That's awesome. I'm glad you brought and showed it to me. I'm I'm wide awake now."

"Yeah, I know. I knew you would appreciate it. That's why I had to bring them all out. I wish I had"

"I wish I had them hanging on the wall like you do, but I'm moving soon,"

"So I didn't want to just like put everything, but I have, you know, five now. I'm trying to get possibly a six. So I want to hang them up like you have. It just looks super cool."

"Right. Do you have a bass? You need a bass. I got the Thunderbird down there."

"I know. I I've seen you play bass. I never learned how to play bass. Um,"

"I mean, it's it's an easy crossover. You just got to get used to like how wide the how big the it's just a big fat, you know."

"Yeah. I mean, I used to play a seven-string, so like when Korn became popular, right? So, listen. This is a a"

"Korn in their [ __ ] up guitars. Yeah."

"Right. So, um, they didn't make left-handed seven strings at the time. This is like we're talking what, '97?"

"Anyone playing a seven-string is good."

"Right? So, I custom made, um, a seven-string lefty and I ordered all the parts from Ibanez, the pickups, the the the bridge, the nut, everything that was seven-string I had to get from them custom and and then the neck I got from like, uh, Warmoth. I think Warmoth is the company that made like necks and bodies. I got that, put it together. So, it's like this Frankenstein lefty seven-string and I so I loved playing like that low A sound like when you D-tune it or even like the low B. But like they've they make nine strings like the Deftones play nine strings. I'm like, dude, how do you even do that? That's crazy."

"Or like Les Claypool is on like a seven, like a five-string bass just"

"Bro, he's the GOAT. Like him and Flea, I don't know. I mean, that that's a hard toss-up, but dude, Les Claypool, he's insane."

"Yeah, he's so good that I can't listen to it."

"You know what I mean? Like people go, 'Are you into Primus?' And I'm like, 'No, but he's [ __ ] amazing.' Like I listen to him play bass all day, but I don't listen to Primus. It's just too much."

"Primus is too odd. Like nothing I have nothing against them, but like"

"No, it's cool. Like he's doing his own thing. Like nobody else sounds like Primus."

"No. Nobody like not even close. Like they're their their"

"It's not even their time signatures. It's like their their their tones are so"

"They're not even a genre."

"Discontent. No, I don't even know what you would call it."

"Like they're not metal. They're not punk. They're not grind. They were just like"

"Alternative at the time."

"Weird. Yeah. Just being [ __ ] weird on his bass with a band. That's what it is. Yeah."

"And crazy lyrics."

"Yeah."

"And then they did the South Park song, which was awesome."

"Yeah. Yeah."

"I never liked Big Brown Beaver. Like just"

"Exactly."

"I never liked Big Brown."

"I was never a fan. And I I don't"

"You're like Blind. When Blind came out, it was like a game changer."

"Like it when I You're right, Scott."

"You know that riff?"

"You're how old?"

"44."

"Oh, no. I'm I'm 49 now. So, I've got a few years on you. I was like 15 when Nirvana came out. So, it was like prime time for all the androgens to be hitting me. You know what I'm saying? I was I was I was 10. I was 11, I think, when I got Nevermind, the the CD. Um, but like but when Korn came out,"

"I had never heard a seven-string before. I've only heard drop D stuff."

"Yeah."

"And so I was just like, this is a weird cool thing. And then Fieldy as a bassist, obviously, and I just liked"

"The the heaviness of the breakdown because this was like the start of new metal, kind of the Korn sound, then like Limp Bizkit evolved from that and"

"You know, it was just a different sound"

"Than like your metal 'cause I loved, you know, Pantera. I saw them a few times. Love Metallica."

"I saw Pantera. I saw Pantera like small. We have this place Harpo's in Detroit, which was just like the nastiest place. Slayer got banned from Harpo's, put it that way. It Oh, god."

"They came back eventually, but, uh, I wanted to ask you guys, have you heard the story of how Korn got their band name?"

"Yes."

"I just recently saw a YouTube short and I never was a fan of Korn and all of a sudden I'm like, man, I think I missed out now. They were like, what was it, Ron? There was a he he said that he wanted to call the band Corn and they had some record label guy. He's like, 'You can't call it Corn.' And the guy's name was Gary. He said, 'Okay, well, if we're not calling it Corn, we're calling it Gary.'"

"Yeah."

"'And he's like, 'You get your choice. It's either Corn or Gary.'"

"And we went with Corn."

"And then And then he goes, doesn't he say something like,"

"'Fine, you know, but I can't imagine the word Corn.'"

"Yeah."

"'Written on an album.' And then he grabbed a piece of paper and Jonathan, the singer, and took a crayon and drew it with a K. And that's how R"

"On the paper one time. K backwards R. That's our logo."

"Damn."

"Yep. I I did hear that story."

"Crayon one one time."

"Yeah, that logo forever."

"And he said he was like, and I've chuckled about their name ever since. And I was like, you know what?"

I think I like this guy. Yeah, he's he's probably cool. I mean, these guys are like I don't want to say super old, but they're old now. And like they're still rocking out. Like they're all sober doing their thing now, which is great.

Well, imagine if Kurt was still here. What would have happened to Nirvana as like because like think about like the way Stone Temple Pilots went and Pearl Jam like everything kind of developed. It became like mainstream. I think Yeah, I think Cobain would have wound up being um I think Cobain at 45 years old is an acoustic guitar Bob Dylan. Johnny Cash acoustic guitar Bob Dylan storyteller artist. He's not even in a band doing small shows in theaters for people for hundreds of dollars a ticket cuz it's cuz and he's an artist an artist not a not a musician. That's what Cobain would have done. I think.

I 100% agree that cuz he even said that he was sick and tired of it to like Yeah. Yeah. He hated being famous. There was lots of stuff in the band going on. Like I just think that he would have definitely gone by on his own. Acoustic, he talked about that a lot too. He really, one of the his shows that he really loved was the Unplugged Show. Yeah. He's super hyper critical on himself and he's like, he actually like thought that was a good show. He said in imagine his book, one of his books that um there was a place called The Blind Pig in Detroit or excuse me, Ann Arbor, Michigan, and he said that was his favorite place to play. I didn't get to see him play there, but it was one of those venues that would have held like 150 people, you know, low ceilings and everything. Like I could only imagine what seeing him in a place like that would have been. You know.

He he quite often said he's like once we got to arenas, we were like, "Oh, this is this is it. This isn't better." No, this isn't better. The clubs are better. This is diff. This is like this is the big business now. And this is I mean, he he come he came from the the small club stage diving, like jumping out in the crowd, sitting right on stage. Yeah. Letting people enjoy the show. If you so you have like a couple hundred people, you know, that's a fun time. I've been to small shows. They're a lot of fun. You go to an arena show, you know, with like, you know, 10,000 people or whatever. You're in a seat maybe, which sucks. Or if you're on the or if you're on the floor, there's so many people it's it's as an artist, I can't imagine it's cool unless you're just a huge egoomaniac.

Yeah. Well, you know how adrenaline is like adrenaline does feel good to people like you know when you walk on stage and a crowd cheers you like and I can imagine that at that level you'd be like yeah the arena's all right. Yeah. Yeah. And then you know your your agent calls you and goes yeah we did 75k at the gate. You're like me. Yeah I'm okay with that. That's good too you know or 200k at the gate or whatever a lot more than that these days. Little Yeah. Yeah.

I mean look at Foo Fighters man. tickets for Foo Fighters when they sell selling out arenas minimum are like a couple hundred bucks and like I mean obviously they're a great band and and they've come such a long way since [ __ ] what 94 when uh their first album came out I think. Yeah. '95. I remember that, right? Something like that. There wasn't long after it was over. The foo he came up with that world was already writing songs towards the end of Nirvana. But my favorite Dave story is when in his book he says that after Kurt died his whole world was like, you know, he was like, "Oh, what the [ __ ] am I going to do with my life? There's no way I'm ever going to be in another band that good." Cuz he still thought of himself as just a drummer for hire, right? He like I just got lucky and I was in Nirvana and now it's over, right? Yeah. Cuz he said he literally said like I'm in a I'm in a band that's had five drummers in like four years. Like you know who who how important am I? Yeah. And so he you know he wound up having like the best three years of Nirvana and then it was over. And so he was like I got to get out of here cuz he said everything reminded him of Kurt, right? Everything reminded him of Nirvana. So, he went to Ireland and he went up into like the rural area and he just wanted to go like get away from everyone. I don't know if he's got relatives there or something, but he was in Ireland in the middle of nowhere and he rented a car and he was just driving the seaside highway in Ireland just he's there for like a while and he saw this hitchhiker and he was thinking, man, like this is so nice to get away from everything that reminds me of what was going on. and he saw this hitchhiker in the rain and he was like, "Fuck, I'm going to stop and pick this kid up." You know, I don't know what it's like. He looks like me, you know? Kid, long hair, he's got backpack. He's in the rain, middle of nowhere. Pulls over, kid's like, "Hey." Hops in. He's got a [ __ ] Cobain shirt on of the Unplugged concert with the guitar. Yeah. And he's like, "Can't get away from this." And he said he realized then that he was running from something that he would never escape. Wow. Cuz if he can't get away from it in the middle of [ __ ] nowhere, then he might as well just go home.

Yeah. But I mean, look I mean, look what he did. You see, he's just like one of those amazingly musically talented people. I love this story of um Pat Smear and Cobain being backstage and Dave grabs one of Pat's guitars and he's warming up just having fun on a guitar and Kurt and Pat walk into the room and they they walk back out of the room and they go around the corner and Pat goes, "He's better than both of us." [Laughter] Because Dave was Dave's just everything. He knew everything. Yeah. I think he's self I think he's self taught everything. No. And and you probably know this. He used the drumsticks backwards. Like he held the the small part in his hand and hit with the thick part. Yeah. Watch every video. He didn't know when he started he didn't know how to hold drumstick. No. I just think cuz he hit so [ __ ] hard. Yeah. He's got more weight. But if you look at the videos, he holds them. I don't know if you caught it upside down or backwards, but he holds the small end in his hand and hits with the thick end. It's crazy. That is wild. And you can see it. So, I don't know. I don't know how that would not hurt your hand. But he said he took a drum lesson and he said that the first thing the guy told him was like, "Well, you don't know how to hold your sticks." And he's like, "Oh, well, this lesson's pointless." And so, my sticks. He's like, "So, well, let's get rolling. You want to talk about some muscle shit?" Sure. Let's do it. Okay. I love I'll give you the intro.