Transcription
[Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music]
Welcome back to The Elephant Room. We've got session number five, "Come Together," and we've got Jack Graham and T.D. Jakes. You're both in Dallas, which is in the middle of one of the greatest countries on earth, Texas. And you guys have got huge churches. I heard you're using Cowboys Stadium as an overflow video room. And, and I went to your church and I said, "Man, this is a lot of seating." And they said, "This is the coffee shop." Ha ha ha. "Coffee shop seats more people than any building I've got."
And so you guys have got huge churches in a huge city that has historically been racially divided. And some would say that Sunday morning is the most segregated hour of the week in America. And so for this topic, we wanted you, men, in the context of friendship, you've known each other for about 10 years, pastoring large churches in the same city, dealing with the issue of race and reconciliation and redemption. And so I'm not gonna say a lot. Who wants to go first to arm-wrestle over it? Let's do it.
Let me, let me start. To me, the way to, to destroy this racial divide, which still certainly exists, improved conditions, but certainly still exists, is the way to get the walls down is to get the roof off and get God in. And we tried to do that at the Bishop at I, along with other churches, both primarily white, others primarily African American, and along with Hispanic and other congregations. We tried to do that about 10 years ago. That's where I got to know the Bishop for the first time when we prayed together, Global Day of Prayer. Gentleman by the name of Bob Bakke put us together. Fine, fine gentleman. A national and global day of prayer. We put our choirs together, we put our lives together in this, and it was an incredible experience. And from that, I mean, it was a real learning experience for me.
Now, just contextually for me, I was born in 1950. Is that indicated? So I'm old enough to remember in a little small town in Arkansas growing up when I would ask my mother, "Why does that water fountain say 'white' and why does that water fountain say 'colored'?" And 30 miles north of Little Rock, that was, that was segregation at its worst, in many ways. I grew up in that environment, thankfully in a home, however, where certainly there was prejudice and misunderstanding. And we all know prejudice is ignorance because we don't know each other. But growing up in that environment in small-town Arkansas, you have to overcome your upbringing in this. You have to grow through this as a Christian, number one. Then when I became a pastor, to learn how to apply this.
And so in, in that context of growing up in a racially divided, segregated world, we've seen this progress and the coming together of people in the last, I would say, a couple of decades at a much faster rate. Again, we have a long way to go. There's still so much hate, racial hate, in people's hearts and lines and in churches. I'm convinced there are churches that are dead and, and should be dead because of hate. There's no other way to describe it. The churches do not welcome everyone. I grew up in a time when I never went to school until I got to college with someone of another race. So that's the segregation we all grew up in, at least on my side of town. And as a pastor, I began to ask questions about that and then to try to work down in West Palm Beach was an eye-opener for me. I went down to West Palm Beach, Florida, where it is much more ethnically diverse, and I learned a lot there. And then coming back to Dallas to work together.
And if there's a takeaway that I wanna, I want to leave in this discussion as we get it going, we can pray together, that's wonderful. We can, we can be on platforms together, that's awesome. But when we are actually in the trenches together serving, and that flowed out of our prayer meeting, Bishop, if you recall, our people from our churches working together, serving together, doing ministry together in the community. That's what took it to a whole new level. So talking about it and, and, and preaching about it cannot compare to, to actually living this out. Because when I know you, I can love you. And when I see the Jesus in you, the Jesus in you, I love the Jesus in you, and you love the Jesus in me. And we learned there for truly to be colorblind at that, at that level. I'm grateful that in our own church, we're making progress in this area. We have probably between 50 and 60 different countries now represented at Prestonwood. And that includes that because I think, frankly, because of changing worship styles and certainly our own community, most people go to church in their community. So as our community is changing, our church, I believe, is, is providing an atmosphere where everyone feels welcome and enjoys being there. You know, so obviously, if that will continue, it will give it to you, Bishop.
Yeah, I have much to say about this. I'm really, I'm gonna ring a bell. I don't think that you can successfully integrate your church until you integrate your life. You cannot stage people in and prop them in because you need them to, let me just serve you here, but I'll say, okay, because you, because you need them to validate integration. If all your friends are one race or the other, then it's not really authentic. It's staged. It feels staged to whoever the people group is that you're trying to invite in, and they feel like props in a play for production. So your church can be no more integrated than your life.
And then certain cities like Dallas are more challenging than other cities. But, but we have to tackle this issue because 20 years ago, Caucasians would have been dominant in the city of Dallas. Today, when you take African Americans, the stats on African Americans and Latinos, they are over 50% of the population in the city. And so either you evolve, or your church continues to diminish because the country is waxing more brown. I love what Jack said because Jack attacked the part that our society does not want to talk about, that racism does still exist, and that it's pervasive in religion and in politics and in the way we think. But I want to hit the lower tier that, because I think most Americans are not extremely racist. I think that we're just used to what we're used to.
I want to, I want to put this in context. During the agricultural age, the, the slavery was promoted because of the agricultural age. It was really a business decision. It was the way that we got money in and out of financial means. Agricultural was the primary way the country survived, and slavery was born out of that. Out of that comes preconceived ideologies about people and culture, and particularly black people. We went into the Industrial Age around the same time that we were in the Civil Rights Movement. And so you have a perpetuation of two ideologies. The Civil Rights Movement came along and made us admit that that we would not be held bondage, not only in terms of the third bathroom, which I also remember, I'm old as you, and water fountain, but also it put us in a situation that we were working together in plants and steel mills, not only blacks and whites, but all types of people, all types of cultures, Democrats, Republicans. It put us together with lunch pails, working together, and we were electricians and plumbers and so forth and so on. And so even though we lived in our bedroom comfort zone communities, we worked in the central marketplace of ideologies, and our ideas were tested by other people from other backgrounds.
As the erosion of the Industrial Age, and we begin to go back into the technological and the Information Age, we have gradually receded back into the trenches of our comfort zones where we shop with and eat with and worship with people who vote like us and dress like us and think like us. And this is a problem not only to the perpetuation of our faith, but the irrigation of our ideas. When you write the books you read, your truth will always be distorted. There has to be, there is, there is something that happens in cross-pollination in, in every aspect of life, not just between believers, but in, in vegetation and crops that creates fruit. And in the absence of that cross-pollination, we have the polarization of ideals and the perpetuation of cynicism that is to the detriment of this country, and it is to the detriment of the body of Christ. The body of Christ will never be what it needs to be until we have other people who challenge your truths with their experiences.
And so if you're going to remain relevant in our contemporary society, we have to not only say, you know, it'd be nice if we got together. We didn't say that a long time ago. And, and the embarrassing thing is that we're not doing as well as the nightclubs are at integrating. We're not doing as well as the world is at integrating. And, and we have to challenge that. And I agree with Jack, it's more to it than just racism. It's comfort. It's, it's, it's the natural inclination to be in environments where people look like you, act like you, dress like you, and think like you. But is that idolatry amidst the worship of self? Absolutely. Absolutely. And, and it begins with music and, and, and leadership.
It is easier, I believe, for African Americans to assimilate into white settings than it is for Caucasians to assimilate into black settings. Why would you say that? We've always had to do it. Yeah. We have no choice. Required. If we were going to get along with the bank, we had to sit down with the white man and ask him for a loan. We went to school, the teachers were white. We, we went into society. We have to walk into rooms where it's not our music and the standards of dress for success is by what you say. You have never had to walk into a room where you were a minority and it didn't go the way that fit you. So that doesn't necessarily make you racist, but it doesn't make you comfortable. And I think that we serve a God that challenges all of us to become uncomfortable, to get out of our comfort zones. And if we don't become uncomfortable, we lose relativity.
And so as we begin to talk about this issue, it is a complicated issue. The pastor talking to you now about it came from West Virginia with about 5% black people in the entire state of West Virginia. I've started a church from the ground up in the coal mines and ended up with the church that was 35% white. So I know that it can be done, but it will not be accidental. It will be intentional. And it is far bigger than blacks and whites, it's Latinos, it's all Asians, it's all types of people groups. And if we don't, we need to irrigate our ideas because without it, the, the media in every aspect of our society plays the music to your band. And all of a sudden, if we don't change, we're gonna find ourselves in a position that we, we acquiesce to a state of racism, and it goes from comfortable to racism without of ever even knowing that we have been pitted against each other. Yeah, because we don't talk to each other.
And if we don't talk to each other, and I'm not talking about church and props, I'm talking about washing cars together. I'm talking about golfing and playing games. I'm talking about your kids, Mike. I'm talking about us playing together. There's so much misperception because the, if you are educated about who I am by the books you write about me, the arrogance that you, you won't even let me be an authority on me. Do I ever get to teach a? Cannot. Not. It's like a guy who's telling a wife what it's like to be a woman. At some point, we have to be able not only we, it's like you, we tell each other to talk, but you also have to be willing to listen. And when you do that, it creates a platform not only so that the gospel might perpetuate itself, but so that we can begin the business of untangling the way we are being fed information and polarized and, and untangle our politics, our history, our religion, our preferences, so that we can get down to what is really true. And if we don't get down to what is really true, do we really have gospel?
If that's the task before us, and, and that means challenging everything. And when Jack and I began to get together and to worship, to, there, his choir director taught one phone, we taught another one, their best singer sang our best singer. So whose singer was better though? Let me tell you. [Laughter] We had a ball for a weekend, and then we went back to our trenches. We have to find a way to fight our way out intentionally if our way of life is going to survive. If we're going to have air and water and health, we have to find a way to connect.
I would agree. I would totally agree that the main problem we have today on this issue is apathy. I think that's why I believe that's what you were saying. It is our going back to our comfort zone. So, so we've got this huge amount of apathy and indifference, that not so much maybe as much intolerance, but indifference, which may in some ways be even worse. And that's what we, and in our churches, have to, you know, if you, if you always grade your own paper, you get an A, right? You know? And, and so if we just look at ourselves and, and let ourselves grow our own paper, we think we may be doing pretty good at this level. But, but I think if we take an honest look, and more importantly, ask God's Spirit to search our hearts on this, then we can really see transformation.
But again, I, I, to me, what's happening with us, we work with an organization in Dallas called Bridge Builders. Shout out to my buddy Mike Fechner, who, who helped create that for us, for our church to be able to bridge back into the city, into the community, and work and not, not only pray together, but to actually help develop the community, building houses and, and creating job opportunities and, and ministry through medicine and, and other kinds of personal touch. And again, not just us, not just the white folks coming in and helping all you poor people, but us working together to do something great for God. And when that happens, the energy is unbelievable. The dynamic, and the whole city, the world takes notice when that happens. They can pass on the, you know, when we have a big prayer meeting together, that's good for us. But when the world sees us working together, loving each other, serving together, that's what changes everything.
At this point, we're gonna throw it over to the bullpen and Crawford. I'm gonna invite you in at this point, buddy, and you shared something last night at dinner. Was your grandfather or great-grandfather maybe? Tell us a bit of your story and contribute to the conversation however you see fit.
Yeah, I mean, I don't want to bore anyone, but my, my great-grandfather, he was, he was a slave. And this spiritual heritage through my life. And, you know, fast forward, I grew up in the central water in Newark, New Jersey. And interestingly enough, and I really loved your assessment, Bishop, of just where things have come from. Because interestingly enough, there was more cultural diversity in the '50s and '60s than areas right now. I'm a living witness of it. I grew up in a working-class, culturally diverse neighborhood in Newark, New Jersey, where I played ball with John San Giovanni and Gerald Adams, and the Philippakis family lived on the first floor. And all the way up until I was 12 years old, I never knew that I shouldn't like people who was different than I was. Never knew that until I got to high school. And, you know, I got my black friends and white friends. And I'll never forget one day I was hanging out with my white friends, and the line came from some of my black friends, "Are you selling out?" Well, I can't, won't tell my father that. And listen to what my dad said. Words of wisdom. He said to me, look me square in the eye and says, "Boy, don't you ever let anybody tell you who your friend should be." And I never forgot that.
My point being, it takes courage to do this. It takes courage. And I think the lack of moral courage that I see in the Church of Jesus Christ is appalling. And we give ourselves a pass by it, by accepting our comfort and accepting our apathy. When really, this issue is a higher issue. Every, that's the integrity of the gospel.
To explain that, buddy? Well, the very, the very reason why Jesus came was to bring every tribe and every nation together, every, every last one of them. And the call to Christ is a call to express the unity that was meant to be demonstrated by that blood that brings us all together. And so I maintain, you know, that there ought to be something diverse about your Christianity, or else it's not authentically Christian. Whether you're praying for people of another land, but there has to be that pressing into that, or else you're not telling the truth about the integrity of the gospel. That was what Paul meant when he confronted Peter in Galatians. He had some strong language for him. He said, "No, this is not just about you eating with your friends and being comfortable with them. He said, you violated the truth of the gospel." Your behavior then. And so I think that we need to kick this discussion up. And I love, love your expression to Jack. I do believe it is the roof off. It has to be authentically spiritual people. We've got to teach more about the implications of the gospel, which is far deeper than praying a prayer, being in the kingdom, what it means to live that gospel out and to be distinctively Christian. What does that mean? And what does that imply? And to me, that's, that is the beginning to the pilgrimage of telling the truth about God in human history. Amen.
Master Wayne, invite you. Yeah, I think at this, in these end days, when the Holy Spirit is moving so powerfully, it should be indeed like the book of Acts on the day of Pentecost, when Arabs, Cretans, Medes, Cappadocia, Pontus, all saying the same thing. I think that's the model that the Holy Spirit wants of us. We were not there yet, but intentionality is going to be important. As you said, Bishop, we, Hawaii, the line of missions blurs over Hawaii because we have all kinds of people. It was thrust on us because of immigration. We didn't ask for it. The Japanese, the Portuguese, and many others all came. They were thrust upon us, and then we just learned to get along with one another. So now we don't see colors of skin, it's just us. And, and I love that. And I think that's coming upon us by the power of the Holy Spirit to say, it's not integration, or blacks or whites, it's, it's Pentecost. We've got to get to Pentecost, and that has to be our goal.
And how for the average pastor who's got a congregation that's comfortable, and people don't even know that their preferences have become their prejudices, what kinds of recommendations might you have for them? Well, as Bishop was saying, the intention out, it has to be intentional. As I said, it was thrust on us, we didn't have a choice, but we got used to it. It has to be intentional where we, the first beginnings has to be structured. Structure can decrease as maturity increases, but while we were yet immature, and we're all immature to one degree or another, there needs to be greater structure. And as, as maturity increases, structure can decrease, but not until then. And so the intentionality of structuring something until it becomes comfortable will start to turn the tide.
Mr. Jakes, do you think being comfortable is a sin to be repented of? Not just, you know, this is an important thing to do, this is a political thing to do, this is a gracious thing to do, but it's an obedience, holiness, sin-sure thing to do? Well, I don't think that we can fulfill the Great Commission in our community. If He said, "Go into all the world," you can't just pick the houses you're not going. And so, so I think it is a certain level of offense. But, but I don't think it is always easily identified. The thing that I try to avoid is using terms that create images that are counterproductive. When you label something as racist, people get sheets in their heads and burning crosses. And so they, so I'm not, they're not talking about me. So when you start talking about who's in your life, who do you run around with, who do you interact with? So when you start getting, and you start saying, "Well, basically, fill in so, so, so, or I say, but it could be any people groups, basically, so, and so, so, then all of a sudden, I have to begin to come out of my safety valve and come into your atmosphere. And when you come, when you come, it, you almost have to go back to being a baby again because you can't trust what you see when you walk into my atmosphere because you are seeing it through the eyes of your history, not mine. So your conclusions about my worship or my praise or the way I raise my children are white conclusions about black realities, or black conclusions about Latino realities. You have to be humble enough to go all the way to ground level zero and, and learn how I think, not just what I did, but how I think. How did I get here? Because all of us got here through generational ideologies.
So when you come into that atmosphere, you can come in there and you can fail. Look at them, they sang this way, or they did that way. You were looking at it through your Catholic eyes, or your Presbyterian, or your Lutheran, or your Pentecostal eyes. All of that informs you. So what you have to do is say, "What is that? Look. What did, what do you think when you do that?" If I said, "You have to become a student again." And I think that's good for us if we have the humility to do it. Here's the sin. The sin is in the pride. There you go. That stops us from admitting that we don't know everything. That's where the sin is. That arrogance that we must always be the teacher and not the student. And that of all things that we fight about and, and tweet about and blog about, the thing that God hated the most, if he could ever get a voice in our church, it's pride. Yeah. "I'm better than you." Yes. And that's the thing nobody blogs or tweets about because often we have it, and it goes untouched. It is, it is not just a lust of the flesh or the lust of the eye. The third dimension is always the strongest. It's not the outer court, the inner court, the Holy of Holies. It's not the body, it's not the soul, it's the spirit. It's not just the lust of the flesh, lust of the eye. It is the out of place, and it's the worst of third dimension, if always the strongest. And that we don't teach about, preach about, because it grows in our garden without ever being weeded.
Thank you. Thank you. If this part, am I supposed to bullpen or take questions? I can take questions.
As a white pastor in the South, how can I encourage having a racially diverse congregation? That seems like a layup for Pastor Jack.
Yeah, engage your community by exactly what we've been talking about, building relationships. Start with you, pastor, and building some relationships that are obvious and friendships that are obvious that you say by your action, you model this reconciliation. I would find ways to work together on equal footing. Again, we're not coming over here to help you, we are helping and serving together. There's some things you can do just in terms of the intentionality. And that means bringing people on your team, both volunteers and ministers on your staff team, that that are diverse. I mean, that's that says a lot. The high school minister of our church is an African American young man who graduated Moody Bible Institute in Chicago, incredible guy, Marcus Hayes. He's making a huge difference in our community. So we're not, we're not giving him a job, you know, the assistant director to the junior, my guy, but he has a key job in our church. And Kelvin is in our church as well, who has our entire pastoral care ministry, our funerals, representing our church with people in grief. So I think what you do, something on the choir, on your praise team, in the choir, you do some things that that act in. But again, I want to make sure you understand that's not posing. That is that is giving people an opportunity to to serve Christ in your church and not making you feel like you're an outsider. You have to do something to earn your way in. You ought to be able to serve if you're qualified, if you're good for the job, and you're gifted, you ought to be able to go for the ministry.
Yeah, question number two. How do you make people of varying ethnicities feel comfortable? Probably not the best word in light of our conversation. In the church, let's phrase it another way. Practice hospitality for those who are culturally different. You want to take a crack, Pastor Stephen?
Well, I think I'm evaluating my failures in this area, listening to both of you guys talk. And it kind of started over lunch. I got to meet your son, Dr. Larett's Brian. I've never met him before, and he pastors in Memphis. And he, he said, he said, "Yeah, I just wanted to ask you, did you grow up in a black church?" And I was like, "No, but thank you." Because that's like a huge compliment. Where that was, that was born out of laughter. It's kind of awkward thing to say, but it's like, that's part of the problem is that our awkwardness, it betrays our lack of affection. When I was in high school, I joined the gospel choir in my high school because I liked it so much and I liked the people so much. And it wasn't a statement, it wasn't some sort of mission I was on to be the white guy in the gospel choir. I was the only white guy in it, but I loved it. And then I went to college, and I was the only white guy, me and my roommate on our hall in our dorm. But we loved those guys. At the end of the whole semester, we had seen a lot of them come in a Bible study, and it was just great what God did. My freshman year of college, but at the end of it, I was, "Would you ever have thought that a white guy from Moncks Corner, South Carolina, like me, would get to be friends with all you guys?" And one of them looked at me, I'll never forget, Bishop, he said, "Steve, you ain't white." I'm really, I'm really going somewhere with this. I think some of some of our language even betrays the subtleties of the sense that we need to pray that the Lord would give us a true affection and love for one another.
When I had Bishop Jakes preach in my church, which, by the way, there is no way I'll ever be able to to preach in my church again without feeling like we're so much better because that sermon is in our walls. It was a Bishop Jakes and then Pastor James. But there was no sinner. You had James. Yeah, I didn't even want to try. Sin, sin, which I thought, you know, I need to have a black preacher for diversity. I was honored and thrilled that Bishop Jakes, the preacher, Bishop Jakes, who's ministered to me, I probably listened to two or three hundred of his sermons easily, would come and preach in my church. And when that's the heart behind it, and you really love his ministry, and it's not some crusade that you're on. And when I had Israel come to the concert a few nights before you came, there wasn't some underlying thing of, "Let's have some black music so my white church can be more diverse." It was genuinely something that I loved based out of my background. And I think that I've got to go back and just continue to address more deeply some of my failures in these areas. When we started the church, I started with a completely white leadership team, and then I found myself with a completely white church. I never set out to do that, but the situation I found myself in kind of multiplied into that. And I'm going, "How did I go from being the kid who was in the gospel choir in high school? I was the only kid in the gospel choir in college too." It was called Black Student Fellowship when I joined, in name of it, to accommodate, to accommodate me when I joined. And it wasn't a mission, it was sincere brothers and sisters fellowship, so it could still be BSF, and they kept the initials. And I went, "How did I get from being that guy to having so many white people in my church?" And so I think that I've started addressing it some publicly and talking with it on our staff, and we'll see whether or not I do a good job. But I'm very challenged and stirred by this conversation. Thank you for raising the standard. I've got a lot to look at.
So James, you're in Chicago, massive issue. You know? Well, I would say a couple of things happened that really turned the corner for me. I think that most, if I could speak so monolithically, I think that a lot of white folks, especially suburban folks, really are just completely clueless about the city. And my first good African American pastor friend was James Meeks, who pastors at Salem Baptist on the South Side of Chicago. He's got a great church. He could easily have been on this panel, and he's a highly esteemed, serving the Lord. And my heart, he's preached in our church. And I'll never forget the day he took me into some of the schools in the neighborhood around his church. And he explained to me, "Oh yeah, I think the high school near your church just poured up the track because they didn't like the turf as much as the new turf they're putting down. Well, that's what their tax base is doing for them. Whereas down here, we don't even have lockers." And I'm just like, "I am a stupid man. I don't know anything about this. I'm just complete." And so when you, when you come to the place where you're like, "I don't know what I'm talking about," and let your heart get touched by that, that was a big deal.
Another thing that I think is a really huge thing that the Lord has really touched my heart about is there are things in the black culture, in every other culture, but for the sake of this conversation, there are things in the black culture that are significantly superior to things in the white culture. One of the things I think it probably attracted to you is you have a really good balance of pastor Stephen, of mind, emotions, and will. We're whole beings. And I find a lot of times, frankly, in predominantly white churches, it's a lot of shoulders up. And God wants to be worshipped with our whole being. And I find that when we began to bring some African American worship into our church, the worship volume went up because the music itself is more in touch with mind, emotions, and will, and it was whole person worship. Our church was better for that. It's not the reason why heaven is gonna be so awesome, is because the richness of the nations coming together is gonna make us whole, better. And you have to have that mindset. And I think I am blessed to have an African American son-in-law, and he's been such a treasure in our family and our church. Seeing our great joy in the way that the Lord led our daughter and he to be together. All of these different dynamics, the, the soil of my heart has been greatly tilled on these subjects. And so I'm just blessed by all we're discussing. I'm in process about it, but I believe very deeply about the things we're discussing.
We've got about three minutes left. I'm just gonna give them to you. Okay. Okay. I think that this is something, first of all, I congratulate the fact that we can talk about it, and we have to be able to talk to each other. And, and find somebody who is mature enough and healthy enough to talk to, and then say to them, "I may say something stupid, and if I do, tell me." Yes, because you're gonna say something stupid and not even know it because it's new. And that's the only way you can learn. And then take the gloves off, and let's begin the talk. I would remind you that the people that God used the most mightily in the Bible were people who were multicultural. He takes a Hebrew baby that floats down the Nile and is raised an Egyptian and then trained by the Midianites, and he goes back into Egypt and leads the greatest revolution of the Old Testament. He takes the Apostle Paul, who is of the tribe of Benjamin, concerning the law, he is Elias, he is a Pharisee, medieval, forfeited, fit in Rome. He is multilingual, he is multicultural, and he was able to become all things to all people because he was so diverse. It is very important if you're really serious about being used by God that you understand the God is bigger than you, and to be able to translate what He has done for you into the languages of the world. If it's the opiate of the hope of His calling toward you. And I would say to you that the Lord is saying, "Who will go and work for us?" If you're serious about saying, "Send me, I'll go." Go beyond your area code and your zip code, and watch God use you in a lazy way. Amen.
[Applause]