Gavin Hickie: What rugby can learn from the Navy

The first thing that anybody will do is you're welcomed with open arms straight away and your spouses are welcomed and your children are welcomed and straight away there is [music] uh community and that's the culture in in the Navy. But the underlying fact is that these young men and women [music] want to do something that's much bigger than themselves. The purpose here is to help develop the [music] best decision making skills in a chaotic scenario and that [music] translates itself to decision-m in combat. I was probably not looking after myself the way I should have been, right? And now with age comes wisdom, right? Not many have failed before they came here because they wouldn't get here if they had. I want my kids around these young men and [music] women every day. We're talking about the greatest young men and women in the country. And for for my little kids to aspire to be [music] like these guys and girls, that is a dream come true.

Welcome to Coaching Culture, the podcast about cultivating culture and [music] leadership. I'm Ben Herring, and I've been loving this side of the game for bloody ages. Today's guest is Gavin Hickeyi. Gav is the head coach and director of rugby [music] for the United States Naval Academy. He has led his midshipman to the first ever national championship in 2023 with an 18 zip undefeated season. He is the author of Rugby Revealed and a dual citizen of the US and Ireland where he played professionally for Linster for a good number of years. And as a personal note, for one year, we were neighbors as young men on our professional playing journey at the Leicester Tigers Rugby Club in [music] the UK. 18 years on, Gav, we're here on the Culturing Culture [music] podcast. Welcome to the show.

>> Thank you very much. It's fantastic to see you. And right now on my screen, we're neighbors again. So, it's happy days.

>> It's the beautiful thing about rugby, isn't it? That um that just keeps you connected. and like we can come back after 18 years apart and just it's like we've been the time hasn't passed. It's those friendships that you form in this sport which are just wonderful, aren't they?

>> Well, I couldn't agree more and obviously we've just gone live now but you and I have been chatting away for the last 10 15 minutes just just catching up on things and it's literally like you know we stepped outside of our apartments there on Leicester Road and and having a cup of coffee beside beside each other out there. You know, it's funny. 18 years just incredible um how life has changed, but at the same time, here we are and just picking straight back up again from where we left off. It's awesome. That's absolutely awesome. Now, what's cool, we did actually talk about off air about both of our journeys, the coaching journey. We we probably didn't expect to be coaching this wonderful game as professionals for a bloody long time, sort of 20 years or so. Your journey is a little bit differently. You haven't gone down uh the mainstream rugby countries. You've actually ducked over to the States. You've become a dual citizen. Your kids are citizens. How's that journey gone from a professional playing career to a professional coach in the United States?

>> It's been amazing. And uh one I didn't see coming. You know, I mean, what kickstarted this was an injury at Leicester. Um a shoulder injury that um you know, was was the worst of times ever because it was the the start of the end. uh although I didn't know at the time but then now where I am sitting in this seat it was the start of the start the best thing that's ever happened to me was to get that injury that you know one time felt like the worst thing in the world and now it was turns out to be the best thing in the world because it helped me get to where I am today and uh I always feel I feel very strongly about that that what what could be seen as as as a disaster and certainly that's the way I felt at the time you know ends up being an opportunity for something else and and I wouldn't have changed the world for for anything for for um you know for for that injury. So here we are. It's been an amazing journey. The the the idea was to get over to to the states for 3 months um to heal from my injury and uh then go back to Europe and get a contract and of course life has other plans and 18 years later and a citizen in the United States with three kids who were born here, my American wife, here we are.

>> Absolutely love it, mate. What apart from the kids and the wife, what's what's the appeal of the states for you? What's what's kept you there?

Well, initially it was it was California, you know, what's not to love about California and and go over there and play some rugby and um you know, from there it's just been a little bit journey from there to New Hampshire down now to Naval Academy. But what's kept me here is is you know, it's it's funny. It it's a desire to get out of your comfort zone. Um a desire to be challenged and to push yourselves in ways you probably wouldn't do in your home country. And that has been the driving force initially to get everything set up over here. Again, a long time ago now, but that was that was probably the initial the initial driving factor. And then from there, it's just been a matter of of looking at opportunities that have come my way and and and making sure that I I maximize those maximize those. And um you know, here are here we are at the Naval Academy. And for me, this is you know, I'm I'm very conscious of one, you know, you forget about what you don't know anymore. I'm very American focused now, which which is funny. You know, I I probably forgot my European roots a little bit and and I'm I'm very gung-ho American in one sense. So, why I say that is just because I was going to say that I'm here in the greatest place on earth, which is the United States Naval Academy, which I absolutely love, Annapolis, Maryland, which is a small little town, but I love it here. I'm I'm I'm all for American rugby. I'm all for the growth of rugby here, which is a long way to go. Um, you know, I'm all for participating that journey and and then obviously leading uh the midshipman in the United States Naval Academy is just a very fortunate uh position to be in.

>> Love it, mate. Love it. And so let's let's hit you with that, mate. You're loving the Naval Academy. How do you what does the culture look like there? Well, firstly, how do you define culture and then what does it look like in the Navy?

>> Yeah. Well, it's a very steep learning curve. I'll tell you that much. coming from um from Ireland and coming from the UK to to learning about American military very very steep learning curve and 8 years later at the Naval Academy I'm still learning you know a lot of acronyms and a lot of a lot of uh a lot of understanding as to how things work here and difference between army and navy is is an important one but culturally um you know culturally militarily wise military wise I think there's probably a slight misconception maybe about American military certainly perception from the outside looking in which is that's why I say I'm I'm I'm kind gung-ho Americans cuz I forget what that's like because I'm in it now. I forget what it's like to look from the outside into say American decision-m or American military. Um, you know, I'm I'm quite I've quite forgotten what that's like. So, now that I'm in it, I can certainly say what it's like from the from the inside. What I would say about culture is first of all, the the military culture, the Navy culture is is certainly one of community, support, community, and you know, nothing but positive things to say about about the community around the Naval Academy, around Navy in general. I you go to any Navy base around the country or anywhere in the world where the United States Navy are and the first thing that anybody will do is you're welcomed with open arms straight away and your spouses are welcomed and your children are welcomed and straight away there is uh community and that's that's first and foremost the most important thing with with the culture in in the Navy. Then what I'd say about our culture specifically here at the Naval Academy is really I would think about culture is just the people is is everything's defined by by people and the quality of people. Now, in order to get the quality of people, you probably have to have a a shared vision and a shared set of goals. I think that's a given. Um, you know, and that's been a process. Naval Academy has been around since 1845. Navy rugby has been around since since 1963. So, that's all thankfully welldeveloped before I came along. You know, we we refocused uh on our on our culture about 5 years ago when we went varsity. And for those who don't know, there's a big difference in American collegiate athletics between a club sport and a varsity sport. And basically, it means that a varsity sport is is probably a bit more supported by by the athletic department, whereas a club sport is traditionally run by students, probably not competing at the highest level with with the kind of support that you'd get from your athletic department. And and that's um that's where we are now. And culturally, we have a vision of making sure that we all buy in, we're all accountable to each other, we all have high standards, and we all have shared beliefs, of making sure that we are the best version of ourselves that we can be. And that can sound quite contrived, but I think culture comes down to to really doing the right thing when nobody's looking and doing that in a shared perspective. Um, and holding each other accountable to that, I think, is is really what it boils down to.

M just a couple of things I love that you talked about mate is that community aspect that you're welcome your spouse is welcome your kids are welcomed like and I'm just talking off air you mentioned you know your kids are at the navalbased school and your wife's got a job in in the same place and you're all feels like a real community where that's all looked after it feels pretty special right when an organization adittly it's a very big organization can actually not just support you as the coach but support you know everything that's important to you it's it's outstanding One of one of the biggest things, sorry Ben, one one of the biggest things that I feel so strongly about is, you know, I want my kids, so I'm I'm fortunate. My kids go to school, right side of rugby pitches, and I would like to get my boys out of school. I've got a daughter as well, but she's in preschool. The two boys out of school and they come down to the rugby pitch before we start practicing, before we start training. I want my kids around these young men and women every day. We're talking about the greatest young men and women in the country. And for for my little kids to aspire to be like these guys and girls and to look up to them and for for the midshipman from the Naval Academy to be ro role models for my kids. That is a dream come true. It really is. The community aspect and and wanting my kids to be around these types of men and women. It's it's such a blessing.

C >> can I just quote something here, G, cuz I saw an interview that you did post 3 years ago or say you lost us in Mary's national championship. And on the interview post game when you just lost this is the quote you said which I thought was absolutely amazing. I hope my ch children turn out like these young men. If they do I'll be a very fortunate father. They are the greatest young men in the country. Win or lose we won the ultimate prize of spending more time together. Now that is an amazing statement. Postmatch immediately after the game for a head coach to talk about their team. What is it about these young men that is so special and why do you want your kids to be like them?

>> You know, it's funny when you read that out. I it it genuinely makes me a little quite emotional. In fact, not just a little emotional, quite emotional. One, because talking about my kids, and two, then we're talking about my other set of kids, which is all these young men and women here at the Naval Academy, Navy Rugby, who are simply aspiring to be the best they can be. And that's that's a driving force for me. It's like you first of all grow up as a as a young guy or girl and want to serve your country is is a big deal, right? So you've got to be mature from a young age to say I want to go and serve my country and defend my country whether you're an American or not or you have these beliefs or you don't. The underlying fact is that these young men and women want to do something that's much bigger than themselves. So that's that's the first thing and then for then they have to that that's the first decision they make. Then they have to go and make it happen. And and making it happen, there's an acceptance rate at the United States Naval Academy of less than 10%. Right? Is about 8%. So, you know, there's there's a student population of 4,400 midshipman. That's it. Right? So, you've got to be anti- STEM school. So, we're adding all these things which is which is science and and math um predominantly, right? So, you've got to be an academic stud. You've got to have a like all A's and and top of your class is is a given. You've got to be then have standouts in either your community service or sports or something. So you have to separate yourself from just being an academic having great academics. So you've got to decide from a young age that this is something you really really want. And that I think in turn leads you to having a sense of maturity that that most 17, 18, 19 year olds don't have. Um and you really have to stand out from the crowd. And that translates itself into being very very hardworking, um, very coachable, very giving of your time to others, um, then very driven, incredibly driven. And so all those things lend themselves just these people being, as far as I'm concerned, the best young people in America. I mean, obviously, you know, you say that about anywhere, but there's everything is yes, sir, no, sir, hold the door open. like just the basics of manners that we'd expect from from people that unfortunately in today's society we we rarely see and um you know that's that's a given with these with these guys and girls. And so for and and they they ask questions like how are you? You know, how's your wife? How's your family? Like again these are 18-year-olds, right? And they seem to have a they in fact they don't seem to they do have a genuine care. They they really care. And so my kids go to training and my guys want to go and play with my kids. You know, it's like it's just it's it's all these things again that you'd like to expect and that we should expect of each other, but we don't get it in today's society. That's not I'm not making a comment on that. It's just that that's the way I feel. And yet with these 18, 19 year olds who are here at the Naval Academy who are stressed out anyway from all the demands of their time, they make massive amount of time for being the right person, being a good person, um being somebody who cares. And um that rubs off on my my children in a big way. And and and [clears throat] I find that humbling. And also selfishly uh these young men and women are going to serve my country, United States, and one way or another, they're going to be responsible for protecting my kids. And so should should things not go well, you know, or should we be called to defend our country. And so I want to make sure that I'm doing the best by them to make sure that they are best equipped to protect my kids in the long run. and and I feel very strongly about that one too. But the bottom line as well though with that quote is that I love these guys, these rugby guys. I absolutely love them. And um we only get four years at at most with them and then they go off to bigger and better things. And our time is finite. And so being able to spend as much time with them as possible is selfishly what I like to do before they they go packing. And although we lost that game which which hurt and stung, we couldn't have gone we couldn't have spent any more time together. And so um you know it was it was genuinely seen as success internally in the sense that we we maximize our time. Winning is great and we want to win but we got to maximize time together and and that was the most important thing.

>> I love it mate that your other set of kids I just think that's a it's a nice thing to keep keep reminding yourself about the players and your teams. But it's interesting mate that um you talked about that your crew is kind of elite crew essentially isn't it? you you're getting the best of the best. People that are coming into the environment with this concept they're doing it for something bigger than themselves, which a lot of coaches talk about trying to create that in their teams, create a an ethos and a you know, a reason for being there. But you have that automatically just by the nature of the people that are coming. What bits would you take if you were to then go away to another team, back to a a club team or or wherever? what what learnings would you take from this amazing crew you're working with and try and instill in a a regular side?

>> Yeah, great question. I I think the the thing that jump gets me up out of bed, jump out of bed every day as much as my broken body will allow me. The thing that really drives me and and our fellow coaches here is is we talk about purpose and there is a significant purpose here. The purpose here is to make help develop the best decision making skills in a chaotic scenario to develop those skills. Right? So what we're asking our our midshipment to do is is decision-m under pressure and that translates itself to decision-m in combat which is the ultimate right because you can pay the ultimate price if things don't go well. And the beauty of what we do is we get to use the sport of rugby to help develop those skills. So what we always say here rugby is only a small part of what we do really. It's a bigger picture and again rugby helps us develop those skills. But what I would say to answer your question would be is find a purpose. Find a genuine meaningful purpose. You can't just take one off the shelf and say okay well this is what we'll we'll work towards. You know it's like really have a a deep down think about what is driving us as a group as a team. What is our purpose? Is that to win games? Okay great but how do we do that or let's drill down more into that. What is our shared purpose? And once you find your shared purpose, then I think you can start really developing your culture, developing your collective purpose, your collective driving force. I think that's really what it comes down to is what is the purpose?

>> The driving force because it's so clear in your organization, isn't it? Like

>> it is.

>> It's Yeah. People would say it to your face and everyone say the same thing. We're here to look after the country, to protect the country and passionate about that. There's a lot of pride in that, isn't there?

H I mean, yes, 100%. You know, and and again, I I'm in it now, right? So, if you'd asked me 20 years ago about, you know, you know, the American flag everywhere or, you know, singing the national anthem before every sporting event, you know, everything here, so maybe I would have different perspective. I'm in it now and I'm fully fully ingrained in and I fully support it. So, when we talk about defending our country, I'm I'm all about it and I feel very strongly about it. In fact, I feel so strongly about it that I, you know, the biggest compliment I could give to probably, you know, the United States, certainly the United States Naval Academy and certainly probably the country is is that I hope my kids want to serve one day. And um, you know, if you had said something to me about that 18 years ago when we're standing at Leicester, you know, I probably would have looked at you funny and I wouldn't have understood what you meant, you know, and now I feel very strongly about that. I really hope my kids want to serve because I see the purpose behind it. I see the reasoning behind it. I see the big picture as to the type of people that you will become if that is your driving force. I I feel so strongly about it. It's it's incredible. I've checked myself sometimes because again, I forget what it's like to be on the other side rewinding 18 years ago. And it's not brainwashed. It's an understanding of what it all means. And what it means is purpose and and significance.

Does the community element of that like compound this feeling when you've got so many people that are all the same that are coming together in a rugby community? Does it just keep this this awesome driving force just growing and growing to something bigger and better?

>> I believe so. You know, and the exciting thing from my perspective is I think we're still only scratching the surface as to how good we can become from a rugby perspective. You know, what's really intriguing for me is that we have a squad of 62 guys. And of the 62 guys, we have four years with with those guys, but I would say maybe 20. Played rugby before here.

>> So, so that's the beauty of this, right? So, that's where it goes back to, well, what's the purpose? So, what are we doing, you know? And and when you start figuring out, well, the purpose is it's to win games obviously, but it's it's to be the best we can be, which again is a cliche. I understand that, but I mean, when you really start drilling into that, you really start having that as a belief. So, okay, well, then if if if we got to win rugby games, how do we do that? and you start peeling back these layers with a group of guys who for the most part have never played rugby before. It becomes so intriguing, it becomes so captivating that the purpose overrides everything. Because if the purpose is to do X, then we just have to do Y and Z, Y and Z, says the American and and and we'll get to that, you know. So, I hope I'm explaining it okay. But the purpose is so meaningful that we're able to become the best rugby team in the country with guys who never played rugby before.

>> Yeah, that's special, man. How have you done that? Like, what do you do?

Shared beliefs, you know, shared beliefs. And probably the most important thing as well amongst all that is is peer accountability. It's like they're not accountable to me. They are, but they're accountable to each other. And that's that's way more important, right? So, you've got guys who are going to lead men who are who are all trying to lead each other to this one common goal of being the best we can be. And that goes back to that quote about maximizing our time. We want to win rugby games. We want to win national championships. But that's not the end goal. The end goal is to be the best we can be. And if that's the driving force, then teaching rugby is pretty easy.

>> Yeah. Would this be a fair statement, Gav, that with so many players that have never played before, when you when they come into your environment that the first thing you're putting into them is not necessarily the X's and O's of the sport, but actually the driving force of why you're doing it, you're part of a team. Does that come for you before the actual technicalities of how to tackle well, how to pass well, the rules of the game? Is that what you do first? Just to bring everyone together so they're accountable to each other first?

>> Absolutely. Absolutely. It's it's this is our purpose. This is what we're trying to do here. this is who we are and do you buy into that and if you don't buy into that then forget about the rugby piece you know you're not going to you're not going to survive here it's it's you know it's life at the Navy Academy is hard for midshipman right I mean you got four and a half thousand students who are in four walls and if you you're in uniform all day military uniform all day and if you were to leave which you can't do most of the time if you're to leave the naval academy you have to be accounted for these are serving military students right so therefore you have to be accountable accounted for at all times. So life at the Naval Academy and again it's it's a it's a very tough academic school. Excuse me. So um you have all these stresses you know um so the first thing that we have to appreciate and acknowledge is well who are we? What are we doing and and what's the point in all this? And so if we can figure all that out and then we can have a shared purpose, a shared vision, again teaching ropey is is so easy and it's such a small part really of what we do. I love I love the perspective of just the bits and where they come because if you were to go to a lot of training courses, things as a coach, you would generally get put in the other stuff first or a flip, wouldn't you? You how to pass and where your hands need to go and what your little finger needs to do, all that stuff, right? you know, funnily enough, and I have to be careful saying this because I don't want to offend anybody of our high school coaches here, but certainly in some positions, um, we're better off not having played any rugby in some positions. Uh, because that's again, that's the easy part. You know, for some of our props, um, you know, a lot of the time if you're playing high school rugby, you're probably the biggest guy, right? And you're probably not getting taught a whole lot of technical skill. you're probably getting taught, okay, well, just push, right, in a scrum because you're the biggest, strongest guy. And then you come to the collegiate level and you probably have to undo a little bit of work or undo a few bad habits to then try and get into the technical side of things. Um, so not all positions, but certainly one or two positions you're probably better off never having played rugby before, which is ironic. I love the thought of you just say to a young number seven or six or eight, any loose forward, just go get the ball and and that's all you need to say sometimes, right?

>> [laughter]

>> Exactly.

>> Yes, sir. I will.

>> That's it. With a salute.

>> Yeah, [laughter] mate. What a beautiful thing. It's very different to other other places, isn't it? When you get that sort of buy in. Just I just take my hat off there, mate. Like, it's it's it's a different world, isn't it? Like that just differs from like the uni level, the pro level, the semi-pro level. You've got just a different audience you're talking to, right?

>> That's the greatest thing about this. You know, we were talking off air about about, you know, it's just not lip service. I'm I feel so fortunate about this job, but like the sense of purpose is is so real and so meaningful that it is different. You know, there was other another college I was at before here and I was worried about how the guys would act at a frat house every second night of the week, you know, and and if I'd wake up to any bad news or anything like that, you know, here it's completely different. It's so different. This is a coach's dream to coach at at a service academy. be I don't know what it's like in other places but certainly here it is a coach's dream right is just you have an audience who are desperate to be the best version of themselves desperate to learn desperately challenged you know what a 17-year-old 18-year-old just wants to be challenged all the time it's it's phenomenal it really is I'm very very fortunate and what have you taken out of it Kev for your own leadership what traits have stuck with you and you've gone what what have you learned from the place

>> yeah Yeah, I I've been around some amazing people, you know, people who have played very leading significant roles in in some of America's biggest missions over the last 10, 15 years. And that's been humbling to be around these people. And what I take from it is is to be the best version. I I keep saying this and I I don't want people to get bored of it, but just to be the best version of yourself that you can be at all times. And the problem with that is that adds pressure. I think that's huge pressure particularly for 18-year-olds who are constantly being adjudicated and judged on on how they act and who they are and and how they carry themselves. So translate that to me for me it's how do I be the best dad I can be? How do I be the best husband I can be? How do I be the best leader of these? If I'm asking these young guys and girls to always car themselves to a higher standard, then how what am I doing? You know, what am I doing? And I think that's really really important. I mean, when we spoke um or when we were neighbors 18 years ago, I was probably, you know,und 100 pounds heavier. You know, I was probably not looking after myself the way I should have been, right? And now with age comes wisdom, right? We all probably maybe try and try and do a bit better now, but I mean, if I'm asking all these guys and girls to to run through a brick wall, then again, what am I going to do? What what condition am I in physically? What condition am I in mentally? What, you know, what am I doing to inspire them? And if I'm being brutally honest, more importantly, what am I doing to spy my own children? And so that's what I would take away from it is is holding yourself to a very very very high standard all the time. Not just when you feel like it. Not just on the days where it's easy. Not just now and then, all the time. And are you making the right decisions all the time? And the answer is no. You're you're going to make a poor decision now and then, but you have to your driving force has got to be to be as good as you can be all the time. and and I find that pretty freeing to be honest with you, you know, and pretty liberating and that excites me.

>> Yeah. Just just on those when you're talking about best version of yourself, obviously there's a lot of things you can be, but you talked about particularly the weight. You're 100 pounds heavier earlier, but that seems to be a thing with a lot of coaches is the physical health. You actually can let yourself go a lot on that, right? And you're at the level you're at, you're actually coaching people to be awesome athletes. And if you're not that, how does that come across you reckon? like is that a really big thing? Is it is it sending a good benchmark cuz some of the best coaches in the world are are are in pretty good nick themselves for the same reasons I believe.

>> Yeah, I agree with that. And you're looking very well yourself there by the way.

>> Thank you very much.

>> It does help they're both married to dietitians. But but you know what I mean you think back about um say Graeme Ryrie, Richard Cocher, these guys that we had firstand um experience with even Leo Leo Coen there recently as well. I mean he's he's in very good shape, right? Really good shape. So, I think there's there's probably somewhat an appreciation that when you get a bit older, it's like, well, I had that weight and at a time where I needed it and I don't need it anymore, therefore, let's get rid of it. But requires a bit of discipline, a bit of termination. Yeah. Listen, if we're asking these young guys and girls to to um be super fit and be healthy, uh I think, you know, we we have to show a version of that ourselves as role models and as leaders of these organizations, of these these teams. So [gasps] for me's been a journey of of you know running as much as I can and and that that brings me a lot of peace. Um, you know that's that gives me great time to myself gives me clarity in my mind gives me gives me peace. I love running. Um I quit alcohol over a year ago. Uh or sorry just under a year ago. I'm coming up on on 12 months now. Uh New Year's Eve was my last drink 12 months ago and I don't really see myself drinking again, you know. and

>> you know just things like this that I think are important for ourselves for our own health but then important if we are going to be role models for for young guys and girls. Yeah, mate. I think it's a really important one just to just to sort of stop on is around the values that you want for your team. You've got to be the first to to embody that, right? So, like I just think about like the stuff that you want in your team and everyone's different, right? Isn't it? Like everyone has different um values that they you're important. Like I just I chatted to Tony Brown the other day and one of his big values is competitiveness and he is competitive. He is the embodiment of that. Like he's always like trying to play cards for money and all that stuff. But you know if you're coach by Tony Brown is going to be a competitive environment because he's that that's his value. It's one of his big drivers. Likewise like for me I I love positivity in my environment. So every environment that I will be I will be as positive as I can be. You won't hear me slagging people off too much. But that's huge for me. So that's what I want. You almost have to pick a few your key ones, right? Because if you have 38, you're going to have watered down versions of that. Would you agree with that? And what would be some of your big rocks in terms of values for the Naval Academy?

>> I think that's awesome, man. I've just taken took a note of that and and you always have been very positive person. So, it's great to see that you you recognize that in yourself and that that's a value you put on your teams. I think that's that's really really cool. So, positivity from you and competitiveness from from Tony Brown. I think that's that's pretty awesome. And now you stumped me. So, what what's mine? You know, it comes with with age. I think it comes with with maturity. It comes with growing into roles. Certainly mine has. I said to Leo the other day when I was over at Lester, I've grown up quite a bit, you know. Um I've grown up quite a bit from my days at Leicester now. Again, that was 18 nearly 20 years ago. So, one would like to think that I I would have naturally, but that's been a big thing for me is actually growing up mentally. But to answer your question, um I think, you know, honesty honesty is probably is probably the the the best thing for me. Are you working as hard as you can honestly? Are you doing the right things when nobody's looking? like are you being honest? And we say you mentioned there just about the driving force being the team and being that role model for the team. That probably came to me through my kids. That was probably the first the first thing. So I was here for about four or five months before we had our first our first child, our first son, Finn. And so it kind of tied in hand in hand. And um that's been that's put some manners on me is is becoming a dad. And uh that helped me grow up a lot. So it's it's almost very hard for me to separate the two between um trying be that role model for your own children and then being that role model for the team. And so just being honest just you know like if we go back say 18 years to to Leicester you know and we say you know let's just say the coaches said okay not let go out tonight okay cuz we got a game in a week's time you know. Did I go out that night? Yeah probably. Did I say I didn't? Uh yeah probably right. So I'm only really fooling myself. So that level of honesty that I found now again which gives me peace is an honesty that I want to be honest to myself. You know I don't I don't need to pretend to be honest to anybody else. You know I want to be honest to myself. So did you go for a run today? You know yes I did. Right. Did you do something else? Like the answer is yes. But I can I can rest easy myself knowing that I'm being honest with myself. And again I hope I'm explaining that well. I I don't know if I am. That's probably been the best thing for me is just probably being able to look at yourself in the mirror and be honest with yourself which I I don't think I could always do and that's been the the the best thing.

>> Yeah. Just well just a repeating theme that you were talking about there was just the mature maturing of yourself like the being a dad and it fits into what you're saying earlier about you know the whole premise is to be better versions of yourselves and like I think you are exactly that mate. You are more refined and getting better all the time version of yourself and that's cool to see. It's the upward trend, right?

>> Well, looking the other way,

>> 100% right. And you never get it always right, you know, and and so this is where you've got to probably have a bit of patience with yourself and you've got to acknowledge that the journey is, you know, what what it's all about. But again, I think appreciating all that, which is predominantly down to maturity and becoming a parent, that that is that's the best thing. I mean, the journey is just fantastic and and trying to and aspiring to get it right as much as you can is is a reward. Not not so much being perfect all the time, cuz nobody is. God knows I'm not. So, just trying to having the conviction and having the inspiration to wanting to be better and wanting to be honest with yourself and wanting to succeed and that's really the most enjoyable thing for me.

>> I love it, mate. And what sort of know is there has there been sort of obvious failures that that have shaped your coaching journey along the way?

>> Yeah, 100%. And I think you were probably witnessed to to one of my biggest failings. I think you know as a as a player when I think back on that time you know getting injured right like injury is is something that we all perceive as out of our control but I mean was I in the best shape to not get injured? you know, did I did I do everything I could to make sure that, you know, I was getting my 8 hours of sleep every night and making sure that I was in the best shape I could have been at that time to give myself the best opportunity to succeed or was I fooling myself a little bit and trying to fool the coaches and then I got a bad injury that, you know, could not that it could have been avoided, but you know, I just certainly didn't help myself back then. And for me, you know, I think one of the biggest faders, my own biggest failure would be not having played for Ireland. I would love just one cap even, which you know, my dad had had a few caps and my cousin did and I just really wanted to follow my dad's footsteps and and get a cap for Ireland. But I I can look back on that now and say, well, I can say I wanted it, but did I do everything I could at that time to to make the most of of an amazing situation I had to avail of that opportunity? And the answer is no. You know, so it goes back again to to why do I value these midshipments so much? These guys are 17, 18. I was my goodness, I was 25, 26. I didn't have that that level of maturity, you know. So, um, so I I had an amazing journey and I wouldn't change anything. I really wouldn't because I wouldn't be here today if anything was different. Um, but I do think that I I did not fulfill my potential.

Do you think it gives you an insight into players like yourself? And do you feel like you as a coach now can see from your own like regrets essentially? You can actually be a better coach to players that are like that and you can see it quite easily in players.

>> Uh I think so. I think so. Again, I'm dealing with a a unique um unique human being here at the Naval Academy. Not many have failed before they came here because they wouldn't get here if they had. And so that that's an interesting one for me.

>> Well, let's take it back, mate. Let's but let's take it back a dash. Before here you were at Dartmouth University and rang the program there which is an Ivy League school, Ival League College that would have had a few more instances where you would have had mixed results, right? Of mixed personnel.

>> Did you see it in those guys?

>> Yeah, I did. Yeah. Yeah, I did. I did. And again, these are all high achievers, you know, an Ivy League school very hard to get into. High high achievers and great young men as well. But yes, certainly there there was potential to go off the rails pretty easily. One or two did. So yeah, I could relate to that very much so. And yeah, but the problem with with that is you got to be careful. You're not the, you know, the old man full of regrets who's just preaching, you know, [laughter] you know, you've got to be very careful, I think, what way you go about that. And there's a saying which I I hate it. It kind of cuts me to my core is if you can't do teach, you know, and that that really bothers me because I like I'm a teacher, [laughter] you know, and it's like, well, you know, that that kind of has its own um admittance there to a large extent, but I suppose it's all relative, you know. Uh Declan Kidney, who coached me at at Lster for for a year uh before he cut me from Lster before I found my way over to Leicester, he he did teach me one thing which was which was great. you know, he said, "For every Brian Driscoll, there's a hundred um of you," referring to me. So, for every Brian Driscoll, there's 100 of you, but for every you, there's like 500 guys who want to be like you. And I found that, you know, pretty insightful to be honest with you. And, you know, so I bring that up just because I don't, my journey is not a failure. There are parts of it that I believe I failed in in the goals that I set myself. But really, I think the acknowledgement of those goals is only after the fact, after you realize you failed. And more importantly, after you can live with the fact that your perception of them is a failure and and I'm okay with that now. I should be because there's nothing I can do about at this stage anyway.

>> Well, if you like I think it's

The kind of the the the coaching conundrum. You're never going to get it right, is it? Like, yeah, you are going to fail as a coach for sure. It's, it doesn't matter, um, particularly that you failed. It's what you do post that, right? Like, it's the effort and and you know what you're trying to then do because of that. And it doesn't even matter if you don't fix it completely, as long as you're endeavoring to address it in the best way you can with what you know, then you you've got to have sleep, sleep better at night anyway, right?

Oh, 100%. 100%. I mean, again, and for me, that comes back to the honesty, you know, it's can you be honest with yourself, you know? Can you, I call it the moment of truth, right? It's the moment of truth. You probably get it twice a day, about 10 seconds before you fall asleep, where all is well with the world. And then about 3 seconds when you wake up, where you don't know if it's day or night or what's going on. For me, they're your moments of truth, and they're the moments where you can be brutally honest with yourself. And, uh, if you can look yourself in the eye, so to speak, in those moments, you're doing okay.

Yeah, I love that, mate. You just flashed me back then, too. I had a conversation with a coach. Cuz I, I never made, um, good teams when I was younger, so I just did my own stuff, right? I just did what I thought was the right thing to do. And someone said to me, "Do, do you regret not having like a proper coach or a proper SNC trainer?" And I go, "No, because like with what I knew back then, I did the best I possibly could." Yes, I appreciate now it wasn't done correctly, technique and things, but I went pretty hard regardless. And I, I just didn't know what I didn't know, right? And it's, it's you can't berate yourself for not knowing stuff. And certainly in the coaching journey, that's the same, right? Like you, you might do something and act in a way which later you go, "That wasn't right." But you just didn't know. And, and the fact that you're now realizing that and having that awareness, that's part of the growth. That's part of the goodness of you being a good coach is being able to reflect and analyze what you did. And not to, not to take it to heart, just go, that's where I was, age and stage. I've learned from that and I'm becoming better because of it. That's insightful. Very insightful. And, and I mean that sincerely because somebody I talk to tells me fairly often to be kind to yourself. And I think that is challenging. I think that's really hard to do. Not that I'm ultra hard on myself, but I find that a challenging, like, be kind to yourself. And if you can do that with warts and all, then I think you're in a pretty good place.

I think so. Any things you do to keep be kind on yourself?

Well, you know, just to your point about we don't always get it right. I mean, I have aspirations, you know, my aspirations of how I want my day to to to work and how I want things to work out and and all that kind of stuff. And I think one of the best things I can do for myself, particularly in in in the world we live in now where we're bombarded with information constantly, is just give yourself a few minutes every day, you know, is just be kind to yourself mentally. Just shut off if you can. Um, for me, it'd be probably darkness, you know, in a in a dark room and quiet room and just have 5, 10 minutes with nothing but just my own thoughts and and, um, I think that's mentally, spiritually probably the best thing I can do for myself.

Love that, mate. Love that. Love that little takeaway. Right, man. Talking about takeaways, America, you've been there a long time now and it's not considered, uh, a super strong rugby country, although that hopefully will change building up to the 31 World Cup, but what do you reckon sort of tier one countries could take away from, you know, how Americans approach the game?

Oh man, you know, I'm sitting here in this room and right above me here, which obviously you can't see, is, um, I'm looking down the bottom of the jersey where it's where it's inscribed is Madison Hughes, his jersey and the thank you note. And I've got a collegiate all-American jersey over there, and I've got the under-20s Junior World Trophy jersey over there. And I've got another player, Zach Finolio's jersey over there. So, it means a lot to me to see United States do well. The 85 nil dubbing by Scotland recently wasn't pleasant for for anybody, you know, and I really do want this country to to succeed. Now, Scott Lawrence, the the USA head coach, he's a friend of mine. My other nationality, the Irish in me gets a little bit disappointed and frustrated when I hear that that USA wants to qualify for, get past the quarterfinal in the 2031 World Cup, because the Irish side of me is like, "Hang on a sec, we're next, you know." So, so that that's a bold statement from them. Um, having said that, what could the rest of the world take?

[snorts] Well, another quick one. When I when I got off the plane, I left Leicester on a on a Wednesday and I landed in California. That next day, we jumped on another plane. We went up to Seattle and I just left one of the greatest clubs in the world, Leicester Tigers, where we're getting our laundry done for us. We were getting meals prepared for us, you know, things that was probably ahead of the time at that time. And then on a Saturday, I was getting changed into my rugby uniform, rugby kit, in the back of a car in a public park. And I thought to myself, "Oh my god, what am I doing? What is going on here?" And having said that, you know, it was amazing. It was one of the best journeys. And I, I fell in love with it because it made me fall in love with rugby all over again. It was just back to that grassroots. This is why we do it. This is the the the purpose of playing sports and, and I loved it. Um, so that was that was a big catalyst for for this whole journey. But what where I'm going with that is I was then reminded as what Americans can do better than most, and that's hit people. And I've never in my life been hit so hard as I was on Saturday up in Seattle. Um, so what can the rest of the world take from America? Well, um, you know, from a from a purely rugby perspective, it's, it's I think, you know, our our American players for the most part aren't paid very much money. You know, we're we're trying to make this game work. We are doing everything we can to drive the sport forward, competing with huge sports like American football and basketball and everything else. And we're doing it for the love of the game. You know, again, bit of a cliché, but I think we're just let's remind the rest of the world as to why we're playing sports in the first place and why we're playing rugby in the first place. It's a brutally honest sport and Americans have not lost touch with that for a moment. They're doing it purely for the love of the game as opposed to any other reason. And hopefully we'll continue to get better. I think we need to play a lot more tier one games. We probably need a good few more of those 85 nils, which nobody wants to hear or nobody wants to experience, but they are good for the soul every now and then to help us realize where we are and the and the work that still needs to be done. Now, that probably the takeaways is is just reminding yourself as to why we're playing this game in the first place. We all want to win and we all want to win World Cups. We all want to succeed, but let's just dial it back for a moment and appreciate why we're playing the sport in the first place and what we're trying to do with this sport. Uh, which I think is probably being a little bit confused in rugby at the moment with what's going on at the game. So, uh, I probably haven't given you very much there, you know, but I think that just reminding ourselves why we're doing this in the first place, why there's so many people in this country who are spending a huge amount of money with very little return in trying to get this game up and running. I think it's very important.

It's, I love you bring back that passion piece, right? Like the the love of the game, which it seems to be like it's the game itself has a lot of amateur roots, right? It seems to really appeal to the amateur level of the game because anyone can just sort of rock in and and find a position and go for your life. It's, it seems it's got that sort of ethos to it. And potentially in a lot of parts of the world, the pro aspect hasn't necessarily continued that or fostered that same passion and love for the actual game.

Right. Well, it's hard, right? I mean, it's hard. We've seen it with, you know, I was before I got to Leicester, I was tied in very briefly with with three teams in England before Leicester, right? So, I played for four teams very briefly or certainly three. Three of those four are gone. London Irish, Wasps, and Worcester are all gone. All right? I mean, in their in the, uh, previous iteration, they're gone, right? And that's down to money, right? And so it's again going back to when I came over here initially, is is falling love that grassroots version of the game again, which, you know, once you get paid to play rugby, I think you can forget about that grassroots. You can forget about probably the same with any sport. You forget about why you did it in the first place, you know? And I think that's, we don't always want to be stuck in this amateur mindset or this amateur reality of of not being able to play professionally here in America. Um, but again, I think it's just healthy to be reminded every now and then as to why we fell in love with running with a rugby ball in our hands in the first place.

Love it. Love it. And mate, I'll just mention your rugby revealed book, mate, which you wrote 10 years ago now, which I loved. And that's that's essentially getting back to the core of that mentality, isn't it? Like you, you speak to some of the best around, why they love the game, what, what the game's about and means to them, right? And some of the people you're talking to is is outstanding.

Well, you know, if we put it to the here and now, you know, you and I met through rugby and I was fortunate enough to meet Wally, your wife, and I was fortunate to live next door to you, right? And here we are 20 years later and we're we're having a chat, you know, like that doesn't happen. It's like, say we'd worked for, I don't know, some company, right? Um, right. We just, we, our desks beside each other. Would we be chatting 20 years later? I don't chat to some of my best friends at home 20 years later, right? And that's what this sport does to you. And I think that's just critical, you know, it's critical to, I was going to say critical. It's, it's part of the game. It's we're willing to have a chat. I mean, anybody I played against, anybody I, I played with, you share this common bond. I think that's one thing that that the United States does do very well and appreciates is that as soon as you step on the pitch with another teammate or against another teammate, you share a common purpose in this beautiful sport called rugby that makes you connected for life, man.

I completely, it goes back to your your shared purpose. I think that when you're when you're in a rugby team, whether you like it or not, you have that shared purpose. Even if it's just winning, but it's more than that. It's a little bit of survival. You know, there's that edge to it like a battle, right? You're, you're having this like physical confronting event happening to your all at the same time and you're looking after your mates and they're looking after you and you don't realize that connection that that's helping form. And it's like if I related to like the World War I and World War II, those trench warfare, like when you're with someone in those environments, you're getting a connection through that massively, um, exposed shared experience. And you actually become tight because you're having to think about your guys next to you and rugby does that, right? In a way that an office job does not.

You know, you've hit on a couple of things there that that made the hair on the back of my neck stand up and we did not speak about this off air, so I just want to say that, but, you know, we have a theme each year which again comes back to the purpose and the shared identity and and all that stuff. So, in fact, one of the first people I ever heard speak about themes for a season, it was you years ago and I, I asked you about that and I started thinking about it and then subsequently came to Naval Academy and started really working on a theme. And no better place to to develop a theme, excuse me, than the Naval Academy. And so you just mentioned there trench warfare. Our our theme a few years ago was simply climbing a mountain and then we evolved it. So, so far we have done the Korean War, we have done the Pacific Island hopping campaign of World War II, and this year we have been doing trench warfare of World War I. And so each Monday, we're very fortunate amount of time we get to spend as as a team. We spend a lot of time together as a team. But so on a Monday during our film review and preview, um, group of players would stand up and talk about a certain battle on our theme. And obviously, as I said, this year is World War I. And so we talk for 10 minutes about specific battles, specific people in those battles and the lessons that were taken from those battles and those those those moments and then we translate that into well, what can we take from that and what can we take into this week's game based on that battle? And again, for for a sense of purpose and a sense of identity, is pretty significant. Um, you know, so it's funny that that you mentioned that, but to your point as well there, you know, it's just when you're talking about it, I think that you, you hit the nail on the head there with me. It's, you see a side of somebody that you wouldn't see you're sitting in the office. You see a brutal honest side of somebody who, you know, at halftime either talking or in the middle of a game might need help or they've done something to inspire you. You see a side of somebody that most people don't get to see. And that's what ties these teams in together. Is there's just somebody who again, a side of them that is is not there for the general public, but, and it's not that they're putting this side on. It is this brutal honesty, um, of them working as hard as they possibly can in this tough environment where they're being tested. And you're getting to see that and you're going to see a vulnerability in that. you can to see them expose themselves in that way that I think ties people in for life, you know? I think that's so so special.

Man, that's gold, Gavin. As a coach, we, we're essentially the person that's kind of responsible for tying it all together to make sure people realize that and highlighting those points so that it becomes not something you look back on, but something you, you feel in the time, like in real life rather than reflecting on 20 years ago, how good that was. If you could shorten that gap up so it's happening then and now. How good does this mean? Like we're all under pressure. We're all acting this way and look at how we're responding. How good is this?

Exactly. And, and again, you're seeing a side of me that my kids don't get to see sometimes, you know, that I don't want my kids to see because I'm under so much pressure here and this is how I act and you're getting to see that and that's tying you and I closer together because of that. I think that's that's cool.

Love it, mate. No, that is, I'm really loving that. Actually, just you just talking about your theme for your rugby team there. Just in spite another thought that I've been sort of given a bit of credence to lately is themes for life as well. Like just not if you take the same principles that you have a theme for your rugby teams, you actually have a theme for your family team or your your husband work or your friend work or your father work. Have little themes that you run for whatever period of time. This year it might be about experiences and that underlines all my thinking around my family stuff. Like this year the theme is having awesome experiences. And I think that's a, that's a cool concept, uh, that we talked about earlier about trying to be the best version of yourselves every day. That having a theme gives you something to you latch on to and run with.

I love that. I've taken a note of that life [laughter] theme. I think that's fantastic. I think that's really, really cool. Um, you know, and you could change your theme up every year. I mean, it's like a New Year's resolution, but it's, it's a lot more meaningful.

You know,

I want to ask you this actually. I mean, you've been a dad a lot longer than I have. You've got four kids. I've got three. But I mean, is that not the moment where everything changes for you? It's like your family becomes so high priority that that's your inspiration to do everything. We actually had, this may sound a little bit geeky, you know, Wally, my wife, but we actually sat down very early on in our parenting journey and we, we actually outlined a few things similar to a game plan essentially or or a structure around season. We said a couple of things which have really stuck. And the first one was let's never lose ourselves in our relationship as being parents. So, let's make sure we always take the time to connect and that we're always a team together and we're not against each other or nagging, do all that stuff that can be an easy thing to fall into as a parent.

Very.

That you become, uh, you know, back and forth because there's a lot of stresses and pressures as a parent. But we made the call early that let's keep us, let's keep our relationship. So, and it's partly for us, but also so that our kids can see what a really good relationship looks like that we're really affectionate to each other. We never down each other in public. That's what I do with my players. And we, me and my wife don't do it to each other in public. So, we might if, so, we do something which is a silly thing to do, which I do a lot of. My wife will tell me quietly later that night in the bedroom, she'll say, "Hey, just to let you know that I didn't enjoy when you did this." As opposed to doing it at the time, just to preserve that that connection. And that's been a big one for me, which is the same as coaching, right? Like I found if you like get into a player publicly, you could lose that player from the game and your rapport and your respect goes, goes as a coach. And it's the same for a parenting journey. So that's the one. And the second one was we had a, a values that me and my wife set up that what was our definition of success for our family. And our whole creed is to create great experiences. That's what we live by. That's our philosophy for our family and it's quite cool to have an underlying philosophy like that. So when we come to decisions and we've had a few of them like moving countries regularly, is and we come back to that underlying principle for our family. Is this creating great memories? And sometimes it's been hell yeah, it is and we go, go. Sometimes it's like, this is probably going to be a detrimental experience here. So we say no. And it really does, like sometimes like financially, we go, "Oh gee, that one's, it's probably going to cause a negative experience because now we can't do X, Y, and Z later on, which is a better experience." And so to have that sort of principle in your family life is the same as in your in your coaching life to have the underlying philosophy of why you're here, what your purpose is, what you're trying to achieve. I think it's, I think it's, it's all the same, mate. It's, it's all the same as the coaching journey, too.

Well, that's pretty inspirational. It really is, you know, to to to know that about you and Wally and to see that you've created those those guidelines for yourselves. Um, you know, and 18 years later, said, "Here you guys are." It's, it's, it's pretty inspirational. It's really, really, really cool.

I love that, man. Appreciate it. Appreciate it. I'll, I'll make sure she knows that. Now, maybe we've got to that, uh, that time of the show, mate, where I'd just like to ask this last question, which is a really intriguing one. It's this. What's one thing you believe about culture that you reckon a lot of your peers or contemporaries would disagree with?

What is that I agree with? Well, that they that they disagree with. I mean, one that I think everybody does agree with is it takes a long time. It can take a long time to to instill and it can only take a moment to to undo a lot of good work. You know, that's, I saw something the other day where it said, um, you know, one moment of greed or one moment of lust or one moment of a wrong decision can undo a decade of good work. And that really struck a chord in me. I was like, ouch, it's so right. Anyway, that's not answering your question. You know, maybe for me, it's, you can change, you know, and again, it goes back to maturity. It goes back to age and becoming a dad and all those good things. But, you know, culturally, you can change and [snorts] and I think I have and culturally I've changed in terms of my philosophies through my experiences of becoming an American and buying into the way of life here. So, perhaps that would be it is culturally you can change should you give yourself to, uh, a new experience or a new opinion or certainly if you're open-minded enough to appreciate that we're, we're all doing our best here. You know, we really are and, and nobody has has written a book on this is the way we should live and this is it, you know, and we'll all succeed if we do this one thing. It's like we're all doing our best here. So, um, you know, let's just, uh, be open to the idea that we can change and we can evolve and that we can get better.

Love it, mate. I certainly think that's a powerful thing to keep remembering in anything you do in life that nothing's fixed.

Fluid and flexible. Even if you're standing outside your balcony at 2 a.m. in Leicester, up to no good. Things can change.

I love it. May, well, the memories are strong, mate. Well, Gavin Hickey, what an absolute pleasure to have on the coaching culture podcast this week. I've got my three key takeaways, which I just like to share as a bit of a reflection on our awesome chat today. Number one is treating your teams like, and quote, your other set of kids. I just think this is a lovely principle to just keep remembering that you're not just coaching athletes or players. You're actually coaching other people's children and to treat them like your own is is something special. The level of care and trust that creates is really good for your coaching and it's a really great one to remember. Number two, this shared purpose that you made such an important point of saying is your driving force [music] in your teams. The significant impetus when you have a shared purpose. The decision-m under pressure and that can be relationships as well. To really have a shared purpose is the fundamental crux of [music] any team. And it's not just winning. There's always something bigger. And in your environment where you're defending a country with [music] some of the people that you are working with is huge. And just to remember that there's always a shared purpose. You just got to find it as a coach. And number three, this joy of the game that we talked about at the end. I just love this conversation about what American rugby does and potentially the amateur roots of the game is just that passion piece. [music] You get to see a side of someone, and this is a quote, you get to see a side of someone you otherwise don't get to see [music] in this game of rugby. You see them under pressure and that connection builds and ties people together. And I think that's a lovely reminder as a coach about what this game is actually doing. It's not just [music] a pastime. It's a, it's a forged shared experience. And as a coach, you're part of the storytelling of this. And you can do it at the right time at in in the [music] time that you're doing it. So you can create this joy of sharing an experience [music] in real time. And I love that. Gavin Hickey, what a pleasure to have you on the coaching culture [music] podcast.

Pleasure is all mine. It is so good to see you and connect with you again after all this time. a huge fan of everything you do.