Transcription
Welcome to the Training Peaks Coach Cast. I'm your host, Dirk Friel. In each episode, we'll sit down with industry experts to discuss coaching methodologies, the latest research, and leading tools for endurance training. Visit TrainingPeaks.com for more training and coaching resources.
Welcome to a special Tour de France episode of the Coach Cast, where I'm pleased to have as my guest Dr. Inigo San Millan, who is an internationally renowned applied physiologist and a previous guest on the Coach Cast. Dr. San Millan is currently a coach and consultant for the Tour de France team UAE. He has been testing and coaching world-class endurance athletes for over 25 years. In this episode, we dive into all aspects of nutrition for the Tour de France. We chat about how important it is to model ahead of time the demands of each stage, how the race data from Training Peaks is analyzed immediately after each stage, and how the data is accounted for within the race day nutrition strategies for each individual athlete. I hope you enjoy this Tour de France sprint episode and learn a few tips that you can apply to your training.
Hey, welcome back to the show, the Coach Cast. Inigo San Millan, my longtime old friend. We went to Colorado State University together. We were teammates together decades ago, and he's really made a name for himself in endurance sports and beyond within health in general. So, Inigo, such an honor to have you back on the show.
Well, thank you very much, Dirk. It's been an honor always to be here. And, uh, as you said, we've been friends for forever, for a long time, and, uh, happy to continue, uh, in the same world of, uh, performance together in different roles. But, uh, yeah, for a long time, it's, it's been fun.
Well, I'm definitely jealous in a lot of ways. You actually get to work with the riders. You coach several of the actual Tour de France athletes on Team UAE. You're part of the performance team for Team UAE, which has the race favorite, Tadej Pogačar. So, it's going to be exciting to see if he can pull off the win in the Tour de France after having won the Giro so convincingly. We'll see if he has more competition. But, uh, yeah, I would love to talk today about an aspect of the race that's not really talked about a lot, and kind of go into some of the finer details of fueling for the Tour de France, fueling day-to-day for the Tour de France. And so, there's so much around that, and it's such an important part of the performance of the riders. And I believe in the past, you know, decades ago, it was just left up to the rider to eat as much pasta as they could and eat jelly, I guess, little, little, uh, pastries along the way. But, uh, it's changed a whole lot in the last few decades. As you prepare for the Tour de France, are you actually modeling out any fueling demands stage by stage and actually modeling stages ahead of time and those, those energy demands going into the stage itself?
Yeah, absolutely. We are monitoring as many parameters as possible on the team. This is something we've been doing for, for a while already. And, and, uh, yeah, we, so we, we can see patterns, uh, depending on the riders and depending on the profile. And, um, and then we can make predictions of, of how that stage is going to be. That being said, prediction is not usually what always happens in reality. So we still have the, um, the ability to change the protocols, uh, based on the prediction that we had on the fly. So that's why we, we might go with Plan A for one stage, but we might go then with Plan B during that stage. We see that might be a transition stage, for example, and we haven't predicted that it's going to be super hard, and all of a sudden it's super hard, which is not usually the case. All right. I've been said, but we have the ability to adapt and use the, the mountain stage protocol if, if, if necessary.
Okay, so you, you almost mentioned like the two extremes. You mentioned a transition stage, which assuming is a lower fueling day just because the demands are lower, and then a quote climbing day, which would have the most, um, fueling demands. What is that difference? You know, what are the biggest changes to the, the athlete needs to account for between those two scenarios?
Yeah, that's, that's a good question. So, a main difference is the, the intensity. Although another factor is the duration, right? So you can have a, um, so what, what we look is, uh, um, our, our bible when it comes to nutrition, our carbohydrates, right? This has been transformational, and we can delve into that in more detail later. But, so like a, um, a transition stage, uh, usually doesn't require as much, uh, uh, energy, high-intensity energy. So you can, uh, really, uh, have a lower amount of carbohydrates. Um, although if that transition stage is very long, uh, you, you might end up, uh, burning or oxidizing as many carbohydrates as to a short, really hard, uh, mountain stage, right? So that's the balance that we look. But normally, you can see that, uh, during a typical, let's say, four and a half, five hour, um, transition stage, sprint stage, you know, you can burn, uh, the riders might burn somewhere, let's say, 500 grams total of carbohydrates. Whereas in a very hard mountain stage, four and a half, five hours long, uh, they might burn a total of about 1,100, 1,200 grams. So we're talking about over, over twice as many grams of carbohydrates, and therefore also many more calories as well, right?
Okay, so if we start off first thing in the morning, breakfast, these guys wake up, first thing you do is go to breakfast. Let's compare breakfast on a transition day versus a big mountain day. What might be the differences and what items would they be targeting to consume?
So normally, uh, breakfast is not going to change that much, okay? For two reasons. First, because what I said earlier, we don't know what's coming ahead, right? So, uh, we don't know like if, uh, let's say this is a four-hour, for example, uh, it might be a transition stage, but it might turn out very, turn out to be very hard, right? Okay. Um, or it might be a very hard mountain stage, but maybe it's not as hard as thought, right? So we, we try not to change elements like breakfast that we, we cannot predict how things are going to be. So we don't change that much, uh, unless obviously it's a prologue day, right? Or a, like, like a time trial also, right? But a regular stage, we don't change much regarding breakfast. Uh, the major changes happening, as I mentioned earlier, during the race interventions, okay? And also after the race. Okay? So we can calculate the amount of carbohydrates, the, and, and, and, and, and fats, uh, that that an athlete is oxidizing, is burning. It's something I've been doing since, uh, 2005. Burning, I mean, looking at fighting carbohydrate oxidation rates in the laboratory, and then you can calculate how much carbohydrates, um, and fat can be burning. And then with that, we can then intervene after the race. So we look at, we pull the data out of Training Peaks, and with that data, we can, uh, very precisely, within an inter, um, um, um, indirect way, sorry, we can, we can see as precise as possible, but it's still an indirect way, right? We don't do a direct calorimetry, but we can see, uh, quite well how, how many grams of carbohydrate and fat and how many calories an athlete has oxidized, has burned during that stage. And therefore, that's when at dinner time, we can make intervention. Not only that, even at the bus already, uh, we can already, uh, start intervening. And, and, and in many areas, many times the bus is very important because you might have a two or three hour transfer to the next, to the hotel, right? And, so you don't want to starve the riders until they arrive to the hotel. So the meal, post-meal, post-race meal in the bus is very important as well as dinner. So this is why pulling the data of Training Peaks, we, uh, ASAP, within, within five minutes, 10 minutes, we have the calculations of, um, of the needs, the nutritional needs for, for an athlete for, for the cyclists after the race. And then we can intervene both for post-race meal as well as for dinner.
Okay, I'm going to dive into that more, but sticking with breakfast, the first week is the same as breakfast the third week, primarily, right? Is that what I heard? It's not, it's not like they're ramping up over the course of three weeks the amount they eat at breakfast?
Okay, now, sorry. Yeah. So now, as we are preparing for the race, um, they're on the bus. Um, what kind of pre-race regimes might they go through? They've had breakfast. Maybe, uh, how many hours prior to the race have they had breakfast? And some of the stages start later, obviously, so they may have had two meals, right?
Exactly. Yeah. I mean, normally, yeah, races, they might start around noon, something like that. Um, so breakfast is usually around 9:00, so we have about three hours before, uh, the race starts. But yeah, that, that hour before the race, the riders might already start having, um, some gels or some, mainly we don't go much for, for gels or or, uh, um, or like a very, uh, simple carbohydrates. We might go for more for like these little sandwiches that we might make, okay? Right? Or little pastries, you know, that we might make, like you were speaking earlier about traditional right nutrition. That's a little bit more what, what we use in this setting, right? Because we don't, I mean, for 21 days, having, uh, gels and bars, it's, it's, it's unbearable, right? So it's good to have, uh, you know, especially before the race, when you don't have the rush of, of, of swallowing something fast, right? And getting the energy right away through a gel, for example, right? So, yeah, you can have a, but you need to eat, start eating something. You can have, um, a ham and cheese or a jam and, uh, cream cheese, a little, uh, sandwich, right? The rounded ones, very typical European. So we can, you can have those. So things like that, right? So, um, yeah, and that's when the race starts. And then with the clock, for nutrition starts for its rider. We have different, uh, depending on the race, we give instructions to our riders about the car, the grams per hour of carbohydrates they need to take. And they're, uh, we educate them very well. So they're really counting carbohydrates, really well. It's an exercise of education that we do. And in fact, they do it so well that as soon as they cross the finish line, they can memorize everything they had, you know, and they can, we can get, are they, are they recounting that to somebody? So it's being recorded?
Yes. So our team nutritionist, Gorka, is the one in charge of, uh, organizing, okay, every, every aspect relating to the post-race meal, the grams per hour. And, yeah, we interact really well. Uh, uh, given that the data from, from that I extract from Training Peaks and the calculations from how many grams they have oxidized in this stage or this, these other riders versus the other one. So I can see that in my monitor as soon as they cross the finish line, right? And then, uh, then Gorka receives that information and then starts thinking about the menus, already starts talking to the chef. We're going to do this, we're going to change this. This rider is going to have more of this, have more of that. And then at dinner, he's present there. But, uh, yeah, we calculate things quite well. And, uh, it's, it's really cool to work with, with someone like Gorka in a, um, set and organized way where, uh, yeah, we interact quite well. And obviously with the riders being so cooperative, uh, because again, they're incredibly well-trained. We've done a big effort for that. I think this is a huge, uh, achievement, I would say, that we had on the team in the performance department, educating riders about nutrition and educating them about the meaning of nutrition, the why and the need for counting what they're having. So they can first know more themselves about the needs and second, obviously, to give us the feedback so we can then adjust nutrition, right?
Okay, so the rider finishes, they'll recount to the dietician what they consumed during the race. At the same time, you are calculating on your end, given the data coming from Training Peaks, you're then reporting back to the nutritionist each individual's, I guess, amount they need to try and make up that evening. And then that nutritionist is actually going to each rider and giving them the tips for what to consume, um, at dinner. Is that right?
Yes. Yes. And this, this is, this is to, you know, to me, it's been an important advancement that we have, uh, uh, made. Because, um, normally, until recently, the riders, they cross the finish line, but they don't know exactly, uh, if, if how many grams of carbohydrate or fat they have burned during the stage, right? 100. It could be 700, it could be 1,000, right? So if the protocols, they used to be standard back in the days, right? You, you enter the bus, you had the same nutrition for all of them. It doesn't matter if you're the first one, if you're the last one. And it doesn't matter if it's a transition stage or if it's a very hard mountain stage. And then at dinner time, they usually are quite standard, right? Within, within, within the, the, the nice work that that all teams have done, like, you know, hiring chefs where, you know, they make these beautiful, uh, dishes. It's not just rice and chicken or pasta and chicken, right? It's now very special tortellini with whatever, you know, and the chicken is marinated with something, right? But now, now we're taking to the next level where we, we can, uh, identify, uh, if a rider has burned 500 grams versus another one who has burned 800 or 1,000. It's not the same. The one who's been in the break the whole day, uh, versus the one who has been always in the front, in the front, and also at the end in the front, or versus the one who, who was all in the front in the first part of the race and then he's been in the bus, the, the cycling bus, right? The peloton. So, so that's what we can calculate. Because if, if you have the standardized nutrition for everybody, then you're going to see what, what we've been seeing for years. Some riders gain weight, other riders lose weight. And, uh, it was not, it was not, uh, rare to see riders, uh, losing two, three kilos, right, during, uh, during.
So, ideally, what are you looking for when they finish the Tour? Are they, are they losing, maintaining? What are you seeing, or what would you like to see?
We're maintaining. We're maintaining it. We're, we're within 0.2, 0.3 kilos, which is like, wow. When we start to look at that data, looking at how well they maintain the weight, we couldn't believe it at first, right? Because, you know, historically, right, we were used to see riders losing two or three kilos because they were catabolic, they needed to eat more, but they didn't do it, right? Because we maybe have the tools to know, or we didn't have the tools to know, right? Or, or maybe the other way around, they say, okay, I have to eat more, I have to eat more just in case, and they end up gaining two, three kilos, right? Um, so now, yeah, we're, we're, we're trying to really avoid that catabolic state, which is key. And, because in the moment a cyclist in the Tour de France enters catabolic state, it's game over. You start losing more muscle weight, muscle, muscle mass. Also, you're getting to a point also where you cannot store glycogen properly. So you might increase carbohydrates, but you cannot store them completely because you have muscle damage, right? And when you have muscle damage, you can't store glycogen properly. So, you, you might store into fat or retain liquid also, because it's associated to glycogen that hasn't been stored, uh, intracellularly in the muscles. And, and this is why, yeah, it's trying to avoid that catabolic state is absolutely key from day one. And this is why we're very, very, uh, focused on that. And, yeah, we've been able to maintain the, the, the weight of our riders, uh, especially in the last four years where we have been dialing things in quite well.
Okay, so then what about preparing for the race in training? And this is something that amateurs can possibly learn a thing or two from. You know, how do you work this protocol into their training? Are there certain days of the week where they're practicing that actual race day nutrition and on-the-bike nutrition so it becomes familiar to them?
Yes, absolutely. That's a great, great question. And, and this is something that we do with our cyclists, and that I highly recommend it also to, uh, um, the rest of cyclists of any level, from amateur level to recreational, right? So to professional. So we, we, what we do is like, there are two things. First of all, uh, not every training day is the same. Some days you do more intervals, and that's very glycolytic, so you utilize a lot of glycogen. And other days are, are not as glycolytic, are more like Zone 2, where you might use more fat. But you also use glycogen because you also use glucose if the day is long day, you have to be careful, right? But, other days, and the second point is like, other days, yeah, you really need to, um, um, push. If, if you need to have a high carbohydrate diet for a given race, you need to, uh, train your gut, right? So you need to do like, and train the foods that you eat, right? You can never try a new food or a new gel or a new drink the day off, right? You need to try it as you know, before. But also, it's like, if you're shooting for, let's say, 100 grams per hour of carbohydrates, and you're not used to it, you need to push for that. So they might be days where you need to train your gut to do that. But, uh, but again, it depends on your level, right? We, we do, we push a lot of carbohydrates, a lot for, for our cyclists. But obviously, we're talking about the Tour de France, right? Where they burn, uh, yeah, they burn like, just in carbohydrates, they burn, uh, up to 4,000 calories, just in carbohydrates, right? Right. So, uh, and out, and out of those, yeah, just they might eat about 80, 70% is pure sugar. So obviously, you don't want to do that with recreational athletes because that's not good for them. Yeah.
And, and also, you have to talk about the workload that's being done. So at the Tour de France level, they're pushing a lot of kilojoules per hour, therefore the fueling demand is very, very high. A lot of people are talking about 100 plus grams per hour, but that's not necessary for every rider. If you are a light rider, you weigh 125 pounds and you're doing 500 kJ an hour, you don't need 120 grams of carbohydrates an hour. Correct. It's not just one target for everybody.
Yeah, absolutely. And this is why we, we try to individualize as much as possible. And we give usually ranges of 20 grams per hour up or down, okay, of carbohydrates, right? So, yeah, as you said, a light rider, uh, might be needing, depends on the stage, 80 grams per hour. But a heavier rider, because they need to develop or they develop more, more power output, they might need a 100. But, also, that light rider is the one that maybe is the, the one that's like the last two climbs for GC, right? Which is very high glycolytic effort. So the, the, the amount of glucose is superb. And then, um, I even have more carbohydrates, uh, that day. They might need more carbohydrates that day than the big guy, right? So that's we are, because the big guy might get dropped on the first climb, but the light rider needs to be there in the fifth hour. And so they need to preload before that final hour.
Exactly, exactly. And, and this is, this is why, like, changing, I mean, increasing carbohydrates, you know, to pushing carbohydrates, as we're pushing now with cyclists, it's been, uh, transformational for, for performance. Uh, yeah, they push a lot of carbohydrates. And, because the ability of humans to exercise depends on the ability to transform chemical energy into mechanical energy, right? The mechanical energy is that power output, whether you call it watts or you call it kilojoules, right? But that starts with the chemical energy and entering the muscle. And that's your substrates, and that's your, your fats, your carbohydrates, and your protein. And we know that the fastest gasoline that you need to, that you have, uh, to, uh, transform into ATP, which is the chemical energy, uh, is carbohydrates, is glucose. So, so this is why, uh, it's very important to have a push carbohydrates, very high amounts when you're at that level. At a recreational level, you need it, but at that level, it's really, really high. I, I started recommending, and this is how it has changed. I started recommending 80 to 100 grams per hour, uh, in 2005, 2006 already, and already doing it, and people were laughing at me and just thinking, this guy is crazy, this is impossible. Now, the guidelines are already talking about 90 grams per hour. That being said, like, as, as, as most of guidelines in sports performance and, and nutrition and many other areas, guidelines are usually a good decade behind, you know? And already we're pushing way more than 90 grams per hour, right now. Now they're, they're really publishing and going to conferences. Many of the people who were criticizing, they go to conferences and say, no, you need 90, 90. Like, what? We have passed 90 a long time ago. We push way more than that. So, but yeah, this, but, but I'm saying this because back in the days, the guidelines were, uh, 30 to 55 or 40 to 60 grams per hour. If you had the Tour de France, now go with a nutritional plan of, uh, 40 to 60 grams per hour, you're going to bonk big time. You're going to die, and you're going to get catabolic, and you, that's when you lose those 60, I mean, those three kilos, uh, during the Tour, because you get catabolic. So, yeah, it's very important.
Do, do the riders ever get nauseous? I mean, amateurs and especially triathletes, you talk about the Ironman, you know, nausea and I couldn't consume anymore because of my stomach. Is that just gone because they've trained it so well, or does that ever happen to any of the Tour riders?
Well, I mean, it, it happens a lot less. That's what we, before going with to the Tour de France with the nutrition plan, we have trained that. We have trained that, especially at training camps, like, uh, a training camp before the Tour at altitude. Then we go to, uh, either do or to the Swiss, and we go back to altitude. So it's a long time, you know, coexisting with us. And, and this is what we really take a lot of detail into everything that we do nutritionally and physiologically and training wise. But the, the thing is that it is, it is very important the type of carbohydrates that you have and the timing, right? And the combination of how you do that. This is why you need to train. You need to combine things and also individualize it. Because some riders, this specific drink or this concentration doesn't sit well on the stomach, no matter what. So you need to change the concentration or then, and then you have to make it after maybe an extra gel, which might tolerate well, or or maybe a panini, you know, or, or like one of those pastries. I mean, you have to really push those carbohydrates, but you need to individualize it. But, but it's rare now that, you know, those famous diarrheas or bloated stomach, you know, they're very rare nowadays, whereas back in the days, they used to be, they used to be quite normal, right?
One thing we haven't talked about, uh, is actually in the bus. And you mentioned sometimes there's two, three hour transfers. That's a big part of, of, you know, recovery. And we're seeing these riders finish, they cross the finish line, and they're getting, I believe, cherry juice. Tart cherry juice. Is that what I'm seeing? The dark juice that they're sipping on immediately?
Yeah, it's, it's, it's a, yeah, it's, they're doing that. Um, I mean, it's, it's rich in antioxidants, right? And also has glucose and a good source of carbohydrates. Yeah. It has a different taste, right? Uh, um, than your typical sports drink. And sure, it's, it's, I'm not seeing necessarily a trend, but, now, if one team does it, boom, everybody goes for it. Or riders demand it. And, you know, I want that. Okay, sure. You know, at the end of the day, I mean, it doesn't change much, uh, whether you give them that, uh, uh, cherry juice, you know, with higher antioxidants or Coke. We also have antioxidants. Well, it depends. But sometimes, you know, the riders say, look, I don't want that stuff, I want a Coke. Or that's it, period. You know? And it is that right away, right? Then, then when we get to the bus, we start doing, uh, more specific protocol.
What might they eat on the bus? I'm sorry, what might they eat on the bus in a two-hour transfer?
So, for example, like they might eat already a big bowl of, uh, rice, okay? Or a big bowl of pasta combined with either omelet or some chicken. We get them already, um, and so, yeah, we get them already a big meal. After that, for some. So it's not all carbohydrates. You're working in some protein and fat?
Oh, yeah, yeah. And you need a, yeah, protein. You need to start using, um, I mean, building protein again, because you also use protein during the race. And riders, so this is a fun fact. So, uh, bodybuilders, right? They usually have two to 2.5 grams per kilogram per day of protein. Okay. Protein, right? Which is obviously, you think, oh, they're big, right? They need a lot of muscle and they need a lot of protein. But endurance riders, uh, I mean, during athletes like cyclists or triathletes, uh, they utilize as much or even more protein than a bodybuilder. Wow. Over the course of the day. So the protein intake of a Tour de France cyclist is at least, at least that of a bodybuilder.
What did you say? 2.5? Yes, two to 2.5 or even more grams per kilogram. Which again, like people said in that back in the days that 100 grams per hour or 80 was impossible. Yeah, they also said, right, oh no, because the guidelines were about one to 1.3 grams of, uh, per kilogram per day of protein. And if you had more than that, it's going to cause kidney damage and you're going to end up in the hospital and things like that. Now we're doubling, right? Not just the amount of carbohydrates, but we're doubling the amount of protein. And there's no kidney damage for sure, right? But helping maintain that muscle health. Absolutely, because they're, they're entering a catabolic state. It's, it's quite important. So, yeah, we start doing that right away after, after they cross the finish line, in terms of like, uh, meals, as well as obviously, you, you need to supplement it with, uh, with the shakes, with the protein shakes. It's very difficult to, to get the amount of protein, those two to 2.5 grams per kilogram per day, just with the steaks. I mean, you could do it, but every day would be like a, a caloric, long time to, yeah. And, and your sleep could affect your sleep. Yes, exactly. And, uh, so, yeah, you don't, you don't want to do that. So, yeah, you need to have obviously, uh, natural, um, um, meat. And, and this is why also we have our chefs. Our chefs, like the rest of the teams, right? They, they buy the best produce, they buy the best meat, the highest quality, the leanest one. They buy in person, instead of maybe getting that from the hotel. They buy in person, they cook them in person, grilled. And they have their own kitchen on wheels, right?
Exactly. It's really, really a big display. Now every team has a, a kitchen on wheels following the riders. And other teams, they even have like a huge bus truck that, uh, it's a, they have the kitchen, and then they have the, the, the living room where they dining room, dining room, yeah, dining room where they eat. They have a chandelier. And, yeah, it's really fancy. We don't have that. We don't have that yet. Maybe someday.
All right, that's awesome. Well, Inigo, thanks so much. I think there's some stuff in there that people can actually use at home for, you know, you know, the amateur age group. A athlete can definitely learn some stuff from this conversation for sure. You're at the extreme level of fueling, and so there's a lot to be learned from there, as you've done with a lot of your education work, you know, trying to relate, uh, elite pro athletes down to making everybody healthy. So, uh, I appreciate all the insights and, uh, good luck in the rest of the Tour.
Well, thank you very much, Dirk. As always, a pleasure to, uh, be in your podcast. And, uh, yeah, if anything that I said has been helpful for, for listeners, I'm, that would be very, make me very happy.
Awesome. Thanks. Thank you. Thanks for listening to the Training Peaks Coach Cast. Visit TrainingPeaks.com for more training and coaching resources.
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