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[Music] [Music] We we got to wear jeans and blue shirts. Has is your is your family going to have to see you? Um, um, not as yet. It's rather an expensive trip. As expensive places today. Your mom stayed from Washington. Yeah, we start, we plan to have her. I plan to have her down here sometime. First of all, I guess I should just ask, how are you doing up here? A, it's a short question deserving a long answer. Uh, I'm doing well. I feel good and working hard on my case. Uh, need a lot more sun and a lot more fresh air, but other than that, I'm doing okay.
Do you get fresh air, son? Do you get out? Well, I get to go to the library. It's a 50-yard walk from here across this, across the parking lot to the library, and that's my fresh air. Do you have more fresh air in at Utah State Prison? Well, uh, when I was in on the mainline, as they say, in medium security, had a lot more freedom, you bet. A big yard to walk in and a basketball court and handball court, you know, your standard medium security life. In a prison is, is a fairly decent existence, relatively speaking to a county jail. County jails are, by and large, pretty confined and, uh, inhibiting sort of places.
Why did you decide to defend yourself? I began thinking about that way back in Utah. Um, I had a year to study criminal law in action, and I have a lot of strong, I have a, I'm a very biased person. I have a lot of strong opinions about how things should be done. And when I came here, I think that my opinions were established to the point where the method that my attorneys wish to impose here and my own did not agree, and we couldn't coexist. And theirs were right for them, and I, mine are going to be right for me. I'm very, I have the greatest amount of confidence that at least in the preparation stage, that my ideas will work. And believe me, I'm not standing here alone. I just called a half a dozen attorney friends of mine today. Every day I get input. Every day I ask questions. Uh, but the reason I went on my own is because I just felt it was time. I felt it was right. I wanted to get involved. I want to become a part of my defense because I am such a part of it. I mean, obviously, I'm going to bear the consequences. So why not bear the responsibility of, uh, of seeking my own acquittal and sustaining my own innocence?
Ted, when you left Salt Lake, when you were extradited, you issued a statement saying you feel that everything will turn out all right, that you are innocent. Do you still feel that? Yeah, more than ever. Um, of course, uh, you can't help but become an advocate for yourself when you're so involved in the case. I'm being a good defense attorney, and I'm not, again, I'm not pretending I'm an attorney, but but being, putting yourself in a position of being your own counsel, it's that positive psychology. You're going to do it. You're going to do it because you're right. You're going to do it because the person you're representing is innocent and just happens to be in this case. I've got a lot at stake, and the person I'm representing is myself, and I'm working on it all the harder. Yeah, I feel good about it. And yes, I feel that I'm right. And yes, I'm, I feel I'm going to make it. No doubt in my mind.
There's always one thing that amazed me. As you know, I covered your trial and I was there every day when you, uh, when the judge found you guilty of, uh, second-degree kidnapping, you never showed any emotion. Yeah. For somebody who believes he is so innocent, why was there no emotion? My attorney, John Connell, is so, and I've always mused over just how I should behave. What's the right way for Ted Bundy to behave and make sure that people get the right impression? And I just behaved the way I felt was right.
Okay, let me take the day of March 1st, 1976, the day that the judge rendered his verdict in my case. First, I didn't show any emotion because, you know, what am I supposed to do? Am I going to jump up on the table? Am I going to scream? That's what I felt like doing. I heard my mother cry. Uh, it's an emotional time. I don't even like to think of that day. But I wasn't going to give these people who went out and built a case around a non-existent eyewitness, an eyewitness identification was built by the police. I wasn't going to give them the satisfaction of seeing me break down. And, uh, sure, I'm mad. I'm trying to motion right now because inside I'm mad. Uh, but I've kept it together because there's no point in destroying myself. I have got to keep myself together. I have got to stay calm. I've got to keep my presence of mind because as long as I do that, I'm going to beat these people. And that's the way I feel. Uh, I showed no emotion. I felt emotion, believe me.
Now, the irony comes here. When Carol Da, the kidnapping victim from Utah, came to testify in this preliminary hearing, here I was, beside myself with rage. Uh, she is turning into a professional witness, as far as I'm concerned. She is a prosecution witness. And when I heard her go through that routine that I had heard three times before, I had restrained myself every time. I couldn't do it this time. And I told my attorney, I says, I'm going to get up. And I got up and I pointed at the judge and I pointed at her. I said, she's lying. She's lied three times before, and she's lying now. And I felt it. And he pulled me down. He says, listen, he says, you can't do that. I said, okay, but I had to do it. For once, for once, they had to do it. And do you know something? People say, Ted Bundy didn't show any emotion. There must be something in that. I showed emotion. You know what people said? See, you really can't get violent and angry. Uh, there's no right way for me to act. I act, and I don't care what people think about how I act. I act according to the way I think is right and best for me at the time. And I'm not going to try to please people or impress people because, quite frankly, the amount of bias and and prejudice that surrounds me as a media image, I can't begin to tear down, not with this interview or 100 interviews.
Ted, do you believe I'm a person from the media? Other people here, do you believe that we created you? That that it's that it's our fault that we created this image of of the mass murderer? Is is that what you're saying to us? Um, well, I think in the course of doing your job, you did not, not in a malign way, not, not, not in a personal vendetta against me, but in the course of of of publishing the, uh, material, broadcast the material coming out of the Salt Lake County Sheriff's office or the Salt Lake County prosecutor's office, you began to plant the seed in people's minds. Now, that may be your constitutional right and duty, as well as, you know, your livelihood. Uh, but I think in the process, you did create a, a media image of me, uh, that's far beyond, you know, the reality of me. As John Connell called the Bundy monster, that's what he called it. We ought to, I suggested to John, we ought to get Mattel to make little dolls that walk and say, I'm the Bundy monster.
Ted, let me ask you this. You totally believe you're innocent. Mhm. Um, I'm not questioning that. My question to you is, how did it come to be that Ted Bundy could be involved in some of these things and has now been charged, convicted once, is now facing first-degree murder charges? Mhm. And as you know, was being suspected in other murders. How did Ted Bundy come out? Where did he come from? That's a very long story. And I can really, I can't, if I knew the answers to that question, I wouldn't be sitting here right now. I'd be back in Salt Lake with a new trial. And one day I'll have those new, one day I'll have those answers. And one day I'll have a new trial. Okay, but I don't know why. Okay, I, I can't begin to understand why. I know that that there's a lot of, uh, police ego on the line. I know that a lot of men in the detectives division, Salt Lake County Sheriff's Office jobs are on the line. I know that it's, it's long time ago. It ceased to be an issue. Is whether or not I was innocent or guilty. The issue is now, is can we pin it on him? Can we, can we follow through and and maintain our reputation as law enforcement officers? And I'll tell you, as long as they attempt to keep their heads in the sand about me, there's going to be people turning up in canyons, and there's going to be people being shot in Salt Lake City because the police there aren't willing to accept what I think they know. And they know that I didn't do these things. Excuse me.
Okay, then how do you exist every day? How do you keep your sanity? Well, um, or are you keeping your sanity? You're, you're a young man, you're intelligent, obviously. How, how do you stay in that little cell and, mm, stay safe? They gave me a, a year's training course in that, uh, from March 1st, '76 until I was, uh, extradited to Colorado. I was locked up. I had a lot of time to work on being locked up. Uh, it wasn't easy at first, but now it's easy. I mean, they made me hard inside, and I can spend time in there. I don't like it. I'll never like it, and I'll never accept it, but I can deal with it because I know how to, how to, let's say, have you trained your mind? Train the mind? Is that, yeah, that's the word I was going to use, but it's not exactly training your mind. It's just creating your own environment in here. Okay? And not looking at the ceiling and not looking at the wall and not thinking about the outside and not anguishing over the fact that you've lost your freedom, but simply in here, simply knowing. I mean, I'm, I live 24 hours a day in that thing, except I go to the library. What did you say? Six by twelve? Six by twelve? Six and a half by twelve. Somebody talks to me, they're, they're locked up. They're punished here. You know, they're told, you do not talk to Bundy. I don't know why. I don't know why this paranoia. Okay, take it up here more.
Okay, how does this compare to their, to the Utah State Prison? It's a good deal smaller. Uh, I can't, I couldn't give you any exact figures, but I suppose I found was in medium security and at Utah State Prison, you'd have several acres to roam around in, all the, all the blocks, the gymnasium, industries area, and whatnot. Even in maximum security, we got to go outside, go to the weight room. Uh, what time do you get up? 6:30. Exercise. I walk, uh, about 2 miles a day inside. 880 laps.
I haven't been following your case that closely, but you'll have to agree, you're the target of a great deal of mystery. And you said earlier, media interest. Mhm. Why? I mean, you'll have to admit, there's a, there's a hell of a lot of circumstantial evidence, at least circumstantial, it seems to somebody who has read, simply read newspapers and articles. No, I won't admit that. No, there's, I, I don't call it, it's not circumstantial as far as I'm concerned. And I don't really know exactly what you're referring to, and I don't really want to discuss it. But, uh, it, I don't care what they, anybody says or or the, uh, the suspicions anyone harbors on the basis of that misinformation. And indeed, that's what I call it. Circumstantial information, perhaps, but misinformation as far as I'm concerned. Uh, a lot of people trying to pin a lot of stuff on somebody because, you know, it's convenient. But, uh, you think you've been set up? Well, I don't think there's any broad scheme. Uh, but I think one begins to, I would have to infer that based on some of the police activity. I think following November of '75, you'd have to say that there was a general, uh, design amongst police officers and several jurisdictions to to do whatever they could. And I think a statement recently made by a sheriff in Utah, Utah County, I believe, he said they, he walked out in some of those meetings because it was just clear that they had one thing on their mind, and they were going to do anything to prove it. And I think this trial will show exactly what they've done. Uh, I'm not going to sit here and say people have perjured themselves, but I think that will come out.
Are you angry? Sure. I get angry. Uh, get very, very angry and indignant. I don't like being locked up for something I didn't do. And I don't like my liberty taken away. And I don't like being treated like an animal. And I don't like people walking around and looking at me like I'm some sort of weirdo because I'm not. You know, I'm perfectly happy with the person I am. And I've always been. There's not, not, I mean, I, yeah, I don't pay my telephone bills on time, and I don't write my mother, uh, as many letters as I should. There are all kinds of things I can improve about myself, but a weirdo, no. This, I feel good about myself. I'm happy with myself.
You don't change. You stay Ted Bundy 24 hours a day. Well, um, gee, that name sounds funny. You know, I hear Ted Bundy in so many different contexts. I stay me. Okay. I, I've matured in the past year, believe me. I've grown in the past year, and I've learned a lot of things about myself in the past year. Being in prison, going through a kind of hell, matures a person. And I, and I think it's, it's done good things for me. My only misgiving is that I might never be, might never be in a position to apply it, you know, on the streets where I'd like to apply it.
Do you ever think when you're in that cell about the possibility that you could one day face a firing squad? They don't have firing squads in Colorado. And I don't think that in any event that I, I ever think, I don't think about it, honest to God. And I, and I've been asked that question before. And I'm going to give you a pat answer if you don't mind. When you did you fly over here from Utah? Yes. Did it worry you all the way over that you might be killed in a car, in a plane crash? No. Did you think, are you thinking about it now going back? Same here. I think I stand about as much chance of dying in front of a firing squad in a gas chamber as you do being killed in a plane flight home. Let's hope you don't. But so you don't lie awake at night thinking about it? Not a moment, honest to God. Not a moment because it's not going to happen. And, uh, in the, you know, are you going to be a free man? I mean, you think that about being a free man? Sure. Yeah. And you think when I say there is circumstantial evidence, evidence that I'm in left field? There isn't circumstantial evidence. I know there isn't. You're dealing on the outside. I'm on the inside. Okay? I mean, you, you have access to information, but I'm on the inside. Uh, I know what's there and I know what isn't there. I've seen the files and I've heard the reports. And Lord knows, I'm the first and foremost person who has the personal intimate knowledge that it couldn't be me, that it's not me, that I'm innocent. Okay, dealing from that on out, I know exactly what's what, you know. And, uh, when you tell me the circumstantial evidence, I'm not going to argue with you. Lucky. It's just, let's just wait and let's just let it come out in court. Let's let it be examined in open court, and I'll lay my money on me, you know, that's the way I feel.
You think about getting out of here? Well, well, legally, sure. With the rumors that have gone on about you, and you're more aware of them than I am, how have you been treated in prison by other inmates? Well, I think you made your life more difficult or more dangerous being in prison. I think you may be more aware of the rumors. And I, for this reason, I have heard a lot of talk. And there might be an inmate who says, you know, Bundy's this and that kind of person. But, you know, when I'm confronted person to person by these people, or by people in general, I have never, I have never been accused. I have never been assaulted. I've never been verbally abused. And the reason is because I hold my head high. I have, believe, I believe in myself, and I treat every man with the respect that he deserves. And that's the way you get along in prison. One of the many ways you get along in the joint is that you treat a man with respect, that you don't try to, to hustle somebody, that you come across straight. To one of the first things you learn is that if you're a straight con and you keep your mouth shut and and and you keep tight with good people, you're going to stay out of trouble. That's just. And it doesn't make any difference what you've done.
What happens if you're in prison five years and nothing like what has happened in the past happens again? What do you mean? I mean, any of the things that you have been accused of, by innuendo, by rumor, by the police department, or whatever. What if there are no killings or no kidnappings? It's already happened, hasn't it? I've heard some reports. I, you know, I number the incidents between five and eight which are similar to the ones which the police have had the nerve to try to associate with me. It's going to continue to happen in Salt Lake and Utah until those police start to wise up and and stop, stop counting their chickens before they hatch. I think it's a terribly dangerous mentality to try to pin something on somebody who, who they might, who they believe there's a possibility couldn't have done it. And as long as they believe that, they're not going to find the right man. And the man who kidnapped Carol Da is going to continue to be free. And not only her, but every other young woman in the Salt Lake Valley is going to be threatened by that person or persons. And it's happening today, and it's going to happen in the future.
What do you think about, in your mind, what do you conjure up about the man that they're after, or the real man who did these things? Man or men? Person or persons? I don't know. I really have, I can't even begin to understand the mentality. I don't understand the motivation. I don't.
Okay, do you ever feel like you'd like to escape? Let me preface any answer to that remark, uh, by giving my feeling about jails. Somebody asked me, is that, that question has been asked me before. I mean, would you want to escape? Have you ever planned to escape? And if my attorney was here, he'd say, I object, your honor. Mr. Bundy is being asked a question. An attempt is being made to ask Mr. Bundy to incriminate himself. But let me try to get my way out of that one. The Utah State Prison, as you know, is surrounded by several barbed wire fences, and, uh, and, uh, has many, many guards and towers, and they've got dogs that run around there, and they've got bars in the cells, and they've got count procedures. And what do you think that's all for? That's to keep the man in there. Now, does anyone think that if they took those fences down and took those dogs away and those guns away, all those guys would stay? Sure, they go. The very reason for prison, the very assumption of all those bars and all that barbed wire is that if it's not there, those guys are going to leave. And I swear to God, every man in that prison at one time or another thinks about going, wishes he wasn't there, and wishes he could fly over those fences. I've dreamed about flying over those fences. I've dreamed about climbing over those fences and tunneling under those fences with every other man in there. I've dreamed about being free because I don't like my liberty being taken away, and no man does. Some men in the Utah State Prison become institutionalized because, because they've been so brutalized over the years, they don't want to think about the outside. But most every man, when he first goes in there, dreams and thinks and and conjures up all kinds of ideas of freedom. But the real difference, the real measure of a man in prison, as far as escape goes, is the difference between hitting that fence and not hitting that fence, between getting shot at and not getting shot at, and having the guts to do it and not having the guts to do it. You might be able to open those gates at the Utah State Prison, and 80% of the guys wouldn't leave. They'd be afraid to get back out into society. They'd be afraid of being shot or getting another, another beef put on them. Okay, but some would. All I'm saying is, I'm no fool. I don't like being locked up, and I don't think any man does.
You talk about getting out. Do you ever worry about what some of the parents of some of these women who think you are guilty, that they might come after you? I don't worry about it. Uh, they are crazy people anywhere. I've been told that, you know, the parents of these, of these girls are, are fairly decent people. I don't know. And I really feel for them because apparently they've suffered some incredible tragedy in their lives. The loss of a loved one is, is probably, probably the most extreme kind of loss you can suffer in this life. And I say, I feel as much for them as anybody can, uh, not having gone through that myself. But as far as worrying about that, hey, if, if there, if someone's crazy enough and nutty enough to do something like that, I, I can't stop them. There's nothing I can do.
You are not guilty. I'm not guilty. Does that, does that include the time I stole a comic book when I was five years old? I am not guilty of the charges which have been filed against me and the allegations and and the allegations, the rumors, and I don't know all of what she's speaking about. Lucky, it's too broad, and I can't get into it in any detail. Uh, but I'm satisfied with with my blanket statement that I'm innocent. Uh, no man is truly innocent. I mean, we all have transgressed in some way in our lives. And as I say, I, I've been, uh, impolite, and there are things I regret having done in my life. Uh, but nothing like the, the things I think that you're referring to.
Have you ever physically harmed anyone? Ever physically harmed anyone? No. No. You know, uh, again, not in the context I think that you're, you're speaking of. Before I know it's 2:00 in the morning, put bed. I developed that technique in maximum curious. I can't. I found the best way to make time pass. First of all, you come up with a schedule that you try to meet. And schedules are made to be broken, but the process of breaking the schedule, you never make it. You know, you always hustle to make that schedule, and time just so zips away. You get typist? No, not at all. They wouldn't give me any correction fluid, so I thought of these little papers that I put.
Okay, let me ask just a question here now. Okay, just a couple questions. I've already asked you. You don't have to answer them. Yeah. You'll have to admit that there is at least a lot of circumstantial evidence. Do you ever feel like you're going insane? What's for? I didn't ask that. Was anyway, was speaking about getting out of prison? Do you worry about what some of the parents of some of these girls you've been accused of kidnapping or killing might do to you? Do you ever think about the possibility of facing a firing squad? I can't. It's built in 1887. Used to be down here. It's, uh, I can't begin to describe. Dark, damp, and drafty. Yeah. Aside from that, it's a bad trip. So you were glad to come down? You were glad to come down? Six one and a dozen the other. You know, down there, I could talk to prisoners. We had three me circulated around my cell. It wasn't locked. Okay? It wasn't locked. I was out with everybody 24 hours a day. Nothing happened till they brought Claudine down. Well, you know, she came in. I have, I really, you to be qualified. Yeah, for sure. I've already qualified for the third degree. Oh, come on, guys. Yeah. I know more about my class is graduating in about a month in law school. I, I'll bet you worry about love me any of them. How does it make? They're graduating. That pisses me off. Now, that does piss me off. Goodbye. Thank you, Ted. Take care. Okay. Later. All right.
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Ted Bundy spends his life inside the 16-cell County jail. He gets up at 6:30 in the morning, walks, he says, about 2 miles a day, pacing a cell, but he spends most of his time preparing his defense. The wind have to blow at the last minute.
Bundy spends his life inside the 16-cell County jail. He gets up at 6:30 in the morning, walks, he says, about 2 miles a day, pacing a cell, but he spends most of his time preparing his defense.
Bundy spends his life inside the 16-cell County jail. He gets up at 6:30 in the morning, walks, he says, about 2 miles a day, pacing a cell, but he spends most of his time preparing his defense.
Okay, why the wind blow just when you started? Bundy refused to discuss any of the specific charges or allegations against him. He says he doesn't think about being convicted or executed. He thinks about being exonerated. His first-degree murder trial will most likely begin next fall. Barbara Groman, News at 2, Glenwood Springs, Colorado.
Bundy refused to discuss any of the specific charges or allegations against him. He says he doesn't think about being convicted or executed. He thinks about being exonerated. Ted Bundy's first-degree murder trial will probably begin sometime next fall. Barbara Groman, News at 2, Glenwood Springs, Colorado.
Okay, there's one more. Let's see. Ted Bundy has been besieged by newsmen throughout the West. What am I saying? Ted besieged by newsmen from throughout the West. Ted Bundy has been besieged by newsmen from throughout the West. In a few weeks, he plans to go to court here and asks that the press not be allowed inside his trial. In the meantime, he did allow us to interview him, provided we did not discuss. You're good. Yeah, I know.
Ted Bundy has been besieged by newsmen from throughout the West. In a few weeks, he plans to go to court here and asks that the Press not be allowed inside his trial. In the meantime, he did allow us this interview, provided we did not discuss specific charges.
Ted Bundy has been besieged by newsmen from throughout the West. In a few weeks, he plans to go to court here and asks that the Press not be allowed inside his trial. But he did allow us to interview him. Oh, keep going. Did allow.
Okay, you on. Ted Bundy has been besieged by newsmen from throughout the West. In a few weeks, he plans to go to court here and asks that the Press not be allowed inside his trial. In the meantime, he did allow us this interview, provided we did not discuss specific charges.
Ted Bundy has been besieged by newsmen from throughout the West. In a few weeks, he will go to court here and asks that the Press not be allowed inside his trial. In the meantime, he did allow us this interview, provided we did not discuss specific charges.
Okay, but can I ask one thing? Is a light bad on the other ones that we should maybe just shoot?
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I'm going to go. Voli. Sorry, got to. I'll swing back.
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Around for.
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Come.
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Oh.
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For.
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Down.
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Oh.