Transcription
Welcome back, morning community. Hope we're all well. Um, so we have another episode today, and we are speaking to, um, Rikers Grimbeck, who's the CEO of Trevelli. We're a global zinc producer, operating three revenue-generated mines, focusing on delivering sustainable shareholder value through transformative technology and ESG practices. Their project portfolio is focused on projects located in the mining jurisdictions of Canada, Burkina Faso, and Libya. Rikers is a mine engineer by background and has over 30 years of industry experience in South Africa, Australia, and Canada. And he's here today to tell us how he's leading a team that is going to be building the world's most sustainable underground mining companies. So, that's what, welcome, Rikers, to the, uh, podcast.
Hey there, Rikers. Hi, Rob. Thank you very much and thanks for the introduction. Yeah, I appreciate your time and hopefully, uh, hopefully that introduction was, um, um, justified as well. So, um, I know obviously you've been in the industry for quite a long time and, um, obviously we're here to talk about Trevelli. Um, first of all, just one of the, for those that don't know, you know, I'm sure most of my audience do know you. I just wonder if you can just tell us a little bit about yourself, about your career, um, and how you, uh, obviously how your mining career has, um, developed, what it is today.
Yeah, thanks, Rob. And, um, yeah, that's a, you, you gave a good introduction there. Um, you know, but I, uh, what I can note is that, you know, as you said, I was in the industry. I've been in mining for more than 30 years now. I actually started working underground in a coal mine in South Africa and studied mining engineering. And what, what I realized after a couple of years working underground, working shifts, just that, you know, I, I needed to study more. So, I, I wanted to, I wanted to learn more and I wanted to understand better. And so I went back to university and I studied, um, did some additional studies in rock engineering and mine ventilation and environmental management. Um, so I've got a, and I've always had a passion for sustainability and always had a passion for doing things safer in our industry. And, and maybe it's because of the things I saw and the things I experienced when I was a younger miner working underground. And I was also fortunate enough to work for some great mentors over my career that, that made me, you know, think about life differently, also made me think about leadership differently, but also gave me experiences not just in mining, but in smelting and refining as well. And I also, at this one stage, ran the Health, Safety, Environment, Community, and Sustainability function for BHP Billiton. It was called BHP Billiton back then, for, um, for three and a half years. Um, and, uh, some of the experiences there, you know, I, you know, was worth gold, um, at the time because, you know, I spent time working with governments on things like climate change policy, Australian government on resource or in tax, so any South African government on climate change policy. And so it gave me an insight into our government's work, um, and also, you know, how the NGO, um, community work as well. Uh, and, and that, that gave me some, some new ideas around how mining companies can, can engage, um, communities and NGOs and governments in creating a sustainable business. Um, I have always firmly believe that we can, we can create a business where we can guarantee the safety of people. Um, you know, that, I know it's a big statement, but, you know, I always say too, to people that if we can't guarantee people's safety, what are we saying to one another? And so, and I want my kids one day to work in a place where we can guarantee that they're not going to get seriously hurt at work. So, um, and, and we can talk about that a bit later, but, you know, to me, that, so that's a whole different, um, mindset that we need to take on as an industry. So that's my background. I'm, I'm passionate about nature and I'm passionate about cycling as well. So, uh, and I can play a little bit of golf.
You mentioned mentoring. How, how important is mentoring and, and how did it, how did it affect you and the people that obviously mentored you and what, what did you get from, uh, maybe more experienced people mentoring you?
Yeah, I think, um, maybe I need to create the distinction between mentoring and coaching, you know, because me, coaching is more on the job. It's, it's more, you know, direct skills, um, coaching, um, and I think that's super important and, you know, that we, we need, we need that on a day-to-day basis. And, but the distinction for me between that and mentoring, mentoring is more of a longer-term vision for where you want to be and finding the right people to help you think through your career and think through the next five years, the steps that you need to take, um, giving you someone that's willing to be a mirror for you, um, and also give you some insights into how you show up because we all think we show up a certain way and then, um, you know, you, if someone is honest with you and gives you some, some real feedback and they tell you that this is what, what's really showing up, you know, that gives you an opportunity to deal with that and to shift that. So I think it's super important to find the right mentors, um, not just people who, who believe and support and, you know, compare what you say. You actually need to find people who were willing to, to, to challenge you in your thoughts and your behaviors, um, so that, you know, you, you can, you can think about the, what it is you really want to become in life, not just in your work, but in life as well. So, yeah, I think it's very important. I think it's something of an art more than a science, um, so that there's no specific textbook to do that, um, and I also think it might be something that's fallen away a little bit over the last, um, you know, five to ten years in our industry, um, is the first thing, the willingness for people to mentor, um, and then also, you know, people willing to take on the coaching and the mentoring that is needed to grow their careers.
Yeah, and with mentoring and your mentoring, how did you, how did you find these mentors? Were they people that you knew in the industry? Were they immediate managers, or did you then reach out to certain people that you probably respected in the industry, approached them and asked, ask them to maybe become a mentor, or it got to that stage? Was it, yeah, was it someone that you knew, or did you reach out to someone and ask a question?
Yeah, and that's why I said I was fortunate to have good mentors because, um, I, I, I didn't know that I needed to find one and I didn't, I also had no idea how to and when and who to talk to. But I was lucky enough at that stage to, to work for people that were great mentors as well, and also to be surrounded by people that I didn't directly report to, but that, that took an interest in my career and took an interest in me as a person, um, to help me grow. Um, so I, it's more of a luck thing, I would say. Um, and, and maybe it's, it's something to, to think back and, um, you know, that, that is something that we, we don't really teach at a, at the university or, you know, somewhere in, in some leadership development, um, course, uh, how to do, uh, how to pick the right mentors and where to get them. And so, yeah, that, that's a good question. And I, I, I was just really lucky. I worked for some amazing people over my career.
Just want to want to even give us an overview of, uh, obviously Trevelli Mining, um, and obviously your operations.
Yeah, it's, uh, you know, this has been, um, see, I've been the CEO now for three years. It's been a labor of love for three years. Um, I don't think I could have picked three more interesting years to be the CEO of Trevelli with what's happened in the world. Um, yeah, I took, I took the role, um, with a very specific goal in mind, and that is to create the, the most sustainable mining company. And I know that is bold and it's, you know, a little bit over the top, but if you don't aim for the stars, you know, you, you're never gonna, never gonna reach them. So we, I wanted to pick something where we had the ability to create what I think mining should look like in the future. And, um, so we started off with four operations, um, with, you know, one in Peru, one in Burkina Faso, um, Canada, and Namibia. They were all high on the cost curve when it comes to zinc and equivalents, um, so they were all over the dollar per pound level. Um, and the plan was always to find ways to get the cost down, get the operations down at cost curve. And we had a great start to that, ended up then being hit by COVID. So you can imagine if your average cost is about a dollar per pound and the zinc price is down at 82 cents, um, and you're paying a 300 treatment charge, um, for your concentrates, um, in the 2020 ended up being a very, very tough year. And, um, so, but the company, we were able to get through that. Um, we were able to refinance ourselves, um, at the end of 2020 so that we could, um, get back on track, um, to, to execute on that vision that, that I still have 100% um, in my sights. So we ended up selling our operation through end of last year. And, um, we, we coined a new strategy called "Shrink to Grow." I know it's not very creative, but, you know, it is exactly what you're doing. Um, we're creating a business that is going to be, you know, around those 70 cents mining sustaining, um, per pound cost. The pound we want to be. So we want to be in the, the top end of the first quartile of the, the zinc cost curve. And we've, we've, we've been able to in the last three years, create an amazingly strong team of, you know, of experts that, that are based all over the world. Um, you know, with COVID, we've, we've been able to move to more of a hybrid, um, working arrangement. And we've got people from Saskatoon to Stellenbosch that worked for us. And then, and then amazing teams at the operations that, um, that execute the day-to-day, um, drilling and blasting safely. So, um, we, you know, we created this platform and we are, we are using technology, um, to, um, to allow us to visualize operations, um, to allow us to get to, um, you know, planning and scheduling to the level that you do not see in mining. You know, so we, we plan to schedule our work, for example, at Raspina, do the hour, um, we design our work for that, um, hour, um, with this precision. So, um, that, that's a, the platform we've created there with, um, you know, amazing digital tools. You know, we fly their own drones. We, uh, flew the first drones in Namibia underground. We, we've got, uh, Spot. I don't know if you've seen our LinkedIn post on Spot, but we, we've been the first mining company in Africa to use Spot. And we, we've got some, some interesting programs too, to help show how that would look like in future and how supervision of certain more high-risk tasks could look like in future. We completed a, a feasibility study. Um, when I started three years ago, we realized that, you know, Raspina is a tier one asset, a tier one ore body, and we needed to build a tier one company on top of that and a tier one operation on top of it. So we did a feasibility study and came up with a plan to expand the volume by 86% and take the all-in sustaining costs from, you know, a dollar down to, um, 67 cents. Um, so, uh, and, uh, you know, we've, we've been able to take the mine life, um, you know, to 2032, so, you know, up to 12 years at that expanded, um, volume. Um, and we are currently studying a project that we are joint venture partners in that's very close to Raspina, called Gaggerop, that we want to find a way of getting that link to our current expansion project so that we can extend the mine life, you know, up to 20 years. So that is really creating a world-class tier one asset and in, in the zinc space, in a very, very stable, great country. So that really is the, so part of the strength to grow is that we're shrinking down to that asset and then growing our business with quality assets and similar quality assets. Then if I look at, um, Caribou, you know, I think Caribou is one of those operations that, that, that I think is one of the tougher underground mines in the world to operate. It's, it's a, um, in a smaller scope, geologically or geotechnically quite challenging. And, you know, you've got cold, cold weather issues as well. But the team, if we're able to, we were able to restart Caribou, just after COVID hit the worst time. Um, we, we've got a two-year plan to, um, to run the operation, um, and we put that in place with a hedge so that we didn't, we're not going to be hit by some weird price drop again. So we've got that plan fully in place at the moment. And, and the current plan is to finish the end of this year, but we're also studying ways of expanding and extending that to the full life of mine that's currently until 2026. Um, but the, the really exciting piece about Caribou is that we, we're studying what we, what is called rapid oxidative leach technology. So that is a way of, um, you know, treating ore and tailings, um, and you, you go from ore to metal. It's a, if how Schmidt, Peter did this five years ago, and we are working with them to, to see if we can make a good commercial project. We've done some bench tests and we've also recently had a pilot plant on site to where we tested, um, the ore, we tested the tailings, and the recoveries have been amazing. So I, I'm very excited by that because if that's true, then Caribou will also be a sub 70 cents on its sustaining, um, operations. Um, I suppose the, the, we, we also have to work out whether Caribou, in that, you know, with the technology risk that you take on when you're building a new plant like that, is something that provides shareholders want to be exposed to 100%. So we'll, we'll think about it at the time when our technical study is complete, and that should be the middle of this year, um, make a choice on how to, um, and how to take that technology forward. So that, that, that's Caribou. And then we've got, um, uh, uh, our Kourou operation in Burkina Faso, that, that's got about a year's reserve left, but there's still the resource that, that we are studying and trying to find ways to extend that because it's a very, very high-grade operation, but also very high cost because, you know, you're in the middle of Burkina Faso. We got a thousand kilometers to the nearest port, and we also burn diesel to, to generate electricity. And, you know, we don't have enough mine life to do what we did in Raspina, because Raspina, we were able to build a solar plant to supply up to 30% of our power, and we can actually do more now. But we couldn't do the same at Kourou because of the, the short mine life, and, you know, it's really difficult to pay back the capital investment to do that. So we've got this, the operations, I think, you know, over the next 12, 13 months, we'll shrink it down to two. And depending on whether we want to take on the, um, technology risk at Caribou, um, you know, we, we might be down to, um, Raspina. And then we want to grow. You know, we want to grow in forward-facing metals. We want to use our platform of technology and, um, and the amazing team that we've got to, to then grow after we've expanded Raspina.
Obviously, you mentioned that Burkina Faso, um, how is the operation going there with obviously ongoing political unrest? Wondering, just give us a quick snapshot of, um, obviously what's happening.
I, I think, um, it's interesting, uh, because people in Burkina Faso are quite used to, um, coup d'états. So, you know, I think they're quite fit when it comes to that. So, in, in reality, operations haven't been impacted at all. We, we're also quite lucky because we are on the western side of Ouaga, the capital city. It's, it's in one of the, it's the less impacted zone, when it comes to, you know, all the incursions and terrorist activity and, and attacks. So, um, yes, it's been good. It was fine. We had a bit of an impact right in the beginning, um, with curfews and, you know, making sure that we could get our shift changes done at the right time, get, get some of our expatriates into the, into the country. But, um, it's working fine. And, you know, I've been here a couple of times now, and the people of Burkina are just amazing, and they're so friendly, um, around our mining communities. You know, we've, I went to the clinics and schools and just amazing, warm people. And, uh, yeah, but I, I would love to see how we can extend the, the operation so that we, we can keep on supporting those communities.
Yeah, well, that's good that things are obviously, um, going well there.
I mentioned a few times the "Shrink to Grow." Why don't you just tell us a little bit more about the "Shrink to Grow" strategy and why you decided to sort of implement this?
Yep, you know, we, as I said, we started with with four, um, four mines, and they were quite high in the cost curve, you know, ranging from, you know, 92 cents to, you know, dollar, dollar 24 when we closed Caribou, um, during COVID. So, you know, those are higher in the cost curve, um, mines. And it, it's, you know, the, the zinc market is interesting, you know, so if you look at the last 15 years, the zinc price, um, have gone up and down, um, in, in, in a very spiky way, you know, so we've seen every single time that there's a disruption to the supply side, and I think that there's a disproportionate reaction to the price. So the price goes up, you know, it's unbelievable how quickly it flies up, but it's exactly the same happens. It's like a zinc balloon, you know, so once that thing is up there, it comes down like a zinc balloon. Um, so it falls hard as well. So you, and, and that's for the last 15 years been, been true in the industry. Um, and then you look across the industry, they're not really any pure-play zinc companies out there anymore. I think we are basically the only one that you can call it pure-play zinc where, you know, more than, um, 80% of our product is that we sell is zinc. Um, so I, we, we looked, we sat back and said, well, you know, there is definitely a niche play, play for us, and that is to be the pure-play zinc. But what we needed was to be quality assets, you know, we need, we need to be able to survive through those, um, those times when the zinc price comes off, because it's just a matter of time before it comes off again. So you need to find a way to create and a company that is not just about volume, um, it's not just about zinc, but it's about quality. Um, and, and if you then look at the, the 15-year, um, the price cycle for, for zinc, um, you know, if you can operate around the 70 cent mark, you will survive any one of those downturns. You'll have still have margin to, to pay shareholders a bit of a return. So, um, that, that's where the thinking started. Um, so we started with the four operations. We looked at the four and said, what can we do, um, in terms of getting these down the cost curve? And the two that we've identified that we can get below 70 cents, that is Caribou and, um, and, and Raspina. So two different things that we had to do with them. You know, so Raspina has been an expansion, because the ore body is there, there's, there's life, there's space, there's water, there's electricity. And then overlay the fact that we want to build a green company, we saw the ability to, um, you know, put a paste plant up that that will allow us to use less ore to put, to put the tailings back underground, so a smaller footprint, and also our water intensity goes down to a third of what it was in the past. We, we can get electricity because of the, you know, basically Raspina's in a desert, right next to the river, so you, you've got the water, but you've also got lots of sunlight, and the weekend, we can over time, I believe, we can get to 100% renewable energy at Raspina. So that, that, that's definitely part of a portfolio that's, that you want to build a future company around. And similarly at Caribou, with the new technology, because in Caribou, in the best at the moment with normal flotation, the best we can get is about 80% recovery on zinc. We don't get paid for the gold because that goes straight through the tailings, and we don't get paid for the, the copper that we have in the, in the ore because we, we can't float it. But with the new, the new rapid oxidative leach technology, we can actually get paid for gold. It, it changes category to a gold mine, to quite strange, but, you know, suddenly, um, Caribou becomes a gold mine. But, so that's what we looked at. The, the two, the two operations that we can then be left behind, because pursuing to grow is about staying a zinc-focused business. Um, I think we, all we definitely want to grow in, in, in more the forward-facing metals. We'd love to get some copper in there, you know, more, more silver, but we want to be focused on on zinc. Um, and, and give investors an opportunity to, if, if you think zinc is going to go up, you, you jump in us. But then you don't have to sell us when the zinc price comes down because we're still going to be paying you a dividend over time. So, um, and, and that's, um, that's what we add at the moment. You know, it's, it's getting ourselves smaller, but, but stronger and more sustainable.
And the company invested heavily, obviously, in digital technology. What have you implemented that has improved the business?
Yeah, it's, it's a, so when we, when people talk about technology and they talk about digital technology, I think a lot of times we think of the shiny, um, things that we buy, you know, the battery vehicles and the sensors and the robots and, you know, all those type of things. But, but it's the, the less, less interesting part is the most important when it comes to digital tools, and that is the mindset that you have to shift. You know, so if you, if you want to get the most out of digital, um, tools, you've actually got to become absolutely precise in planning and scheduling your work. So planning and scheduling and executing work with precision. So that sounds super boring, and I can tell you is the most important thing if you want to be successful in using digital tools. So that's what we've been focused on for the last, um, two and a half years. Um, a place like Raspina, if you go there and go and visit, so we've had many visits, um, recently because we're doing currently doing the financing for, for the mine, and people are blown away by the, the shift in culture around planning and scheduling, where people actually, operators, supervisors, superintendents, managers, they, they look at planning as more of a sacred thing rather than rough guidance. So it's, and that's the only way that, that you can really then start using the tools like your sensors and your, um, the real-time monitoring of equipment, the, the real-time data that you get from what you're drilling, where you're drilling, what comes into the plant, that's the only way you can really get the most out of all the new data is if you, if you can actually adjust work in real time or near real time to get the most out of the data that you're getting. So, and I know that sounds lopsided and maybe a long explanation, but, you know, that's what we've seen is the benefits of knowing what people are doing right now, and knowing that what they are doing has been planned and scheduled, and it is the best work to be done right now. And then the key thing is having an ability to adjust the plan because in our industry, things do change, you know, you, you can't, you know, know exactly what's going to happen today because, you know, you, you mine into things and you know things broken. And the key is understanding what the next best plan is, and not doing that based on a supervisor or superintendent's, um, judgment call underground or in the fire interface, but based on data. And that's why we have digital twins of all our operations, and we can run rapid planning and rescheduling processes to come up with the next best work to do. An example would be a crew underground, and suddenly we lose the ventilation to that area. The, what's the next best thing for them to do? And it could be that they have to come to surface and go to training that they were supposed to do, you know, next week, rather than send them to a different area, start loading or drilling and blasting a new area that, that then puts everything out of sequence and puts the wrong grade into the plant. So, um, but the dose type of calls, you, you cannot really make, um, if you don't have visibility of all the data. And, and so you, you need, you need that to go back to a centralized point where people that have got all the data can make calls on that. And, and lastly, I think what, what we've seen with digital is it's also the access to allow us to, to guarantee the safety of our people because, you know, in a world where you can monitor remote work 24/7, you can use AI to, to help monitor high-risk areas, um, you, you, you can understand the key metrics on the key controls and the key, and physical risk controls you've got in place, the efficiency of those real time, um, so that you can adjust and pull out and, and warn when things are going to go off track. So, yeah, long-winded answer, but, you know, it is, it's more about, it's more about the mindset on, and getting, getting a whole company to start believing that planning and scheduling is important.
Again, sustainability is important to Trevelli. What actions have you taken around sustainability to again improve the business?
Yeah, you know, we, I think we use the term, we want to be the most sustainable company. And, you know, to me, that, it's got so many, so many facets to it. Um, you know, it starts with, um, our license to operate. So, I, I look at our license to operate, um, in certain communities more as a privilege to operate, because, you know, sometimes you have a mindset when you have a license as well, I have the right now to do certain things, and then people become a little bit, um, less sensitive, and less engaging with the, the stakeholders in their community. So, but if you think of it as a privilege, it really, um, you know, you know that you, you need, you need to engage and keep on engaging, even if you think you have the right. Um, so that, that's also, uh, you know, with the areas where we work, we work in sensitive environments. You know, we, we've, we've got, so we started all what, you know, most mining companies do, and everyone should be doing, you know, waste management plans, and, you know, water treatment, and, you know, water conservation, and, you know, land, um, treatment, and, you know, damn preservation plans, and solar energy, and, you know, green energy. And, um, we do kind of stuff on, on in local community development. We buy locally, we, we support some local leaders, we support kids in, in local communities. So that's all part of it. And I think all long-dated, um, capital-intensive industries, should be doing around the world. And I think a lot of them are. And, and I think it's also for me, sustainability plays into the world of, um, creating diverse workforces, and, and when I look at diversity and inclusion, they're again, two very distinct things within my, in my mind. And, you know, I, I have to make things simple for myself, otherwise I get confused. So I look at, for me, inclusion is, is a verb, you know, it's an action. You know, you, you, we create inclusive workplaces, and that's for inside the workplace, but also inclusive with our communities and our governments, the way we operate. So we, we share our data, we, it's open, and we make sure that everyone can see it, can see everything. And in terms of a workplace, you know, we create a safe space for people to be who they are, you know, that they are not afraid to, to speak up and to say things the way they see it. They're also not afraid to be the person that they want to be. And, you know, what, what we find is, you know, diversity is then more of an outcome, you know, so it's the, the output from an inclusive environment that we've created allows, um, people to be who they are, and you see totally diverse people show up sometimes, you know, when you allow them to just speak up and give them the, the space to be, um, to be who they are. And, and then it also attracts people that are different to come and work for us because there is this, this increase of workplace where they can, can be part of that. So, um, I, I don't think many companies will be able to operate unless you are super focused on sustainability in future. You know, I, I can see, I, I speak to many analysts and investors, and, and the, it's shifting. It's absolutely shifting. You know, I, I can remember when I was a head of HSE, check, and sustainability from BHP Billiton, and that was in 2009. Um, I, I, I said to the then CEO, Maurice Lopez, this is going to become a big thing. You know, we really have to think about how we set ourselves up. And I can remember, you, you said, you can see it as well, but it's, it was back then quite a hard conversation to have because, you know, it's such an integrated thing. You, you can't bolt sustainability onto your business. You know, it really is the core of how you design everything and how you think about your business is sustainability. And, but, and, and back then, I can remember sitting in, in investor meetings, there were no questions about sustainability, nothing, zero. Today, most meetings I have with investors start with sustainability. They want to know what are you doing? And they call it ESG, you know, so it's, it's totally the questioning is still very, um, high level in some instances, one or two people are actually quite, um, deep into it and start understanding the fundamentals of it. But, but at least it's, is there every conversation with investors, they do ask the question, and they, they want to see that you, that you have a good handle on it. And some, some funds cannot invest in companies that don't do certain things, you know, so, um, that's why I think it's, it's going to become a competitive edge if you can do this really well.
As a conclusion, what's the outlook for Trevelli over the next sort of 12 to 18 months?
Yeah, it's super exciting. You know, I, I can't wait to, to get this financing for Raspina, um, and sorted out. I think we're getting close to getting that done. We're looking for $200 million. I think we're gonna do that without doing an equity raise. And so then once, once that's in place, that's in place, um, you know, we, we are off to the races because we are on on track to, to create that, um, future, looking company where we, we down the cost curve, we're running a very sustainable, safe workplace, um, where we can guarantee the safety of our people. So to me, we are ready to grow. Uh, we, we've got our eye on a couple of, um, targets once we've got the Raspina financed and to, to take us to, to the next stage where there will be the, the premier zinc investment vehicle that, that will, even in tough times, give investors some money back.
Rikers, really appreciate your time. Interesting to hear, obviously, your vision for the company and looking, and, and obviously understanding what you're looking to do with the company in terms of obviously sustainability and digital, digital, uh, technology. Um, it's really good to hear and, um, and, um, wish you well, um, in the future. If our audience wants to reach out to you, if they have any questions or want to know more about, um, what you have been doing and what your, the future of Trevelli is, how can they go about doing that? And are you across any social media platforms?
Failure, the best would be just, uh, connect with me on LinkedIn. Um, I'm, I'm there. I, I, I, I post regularly and talk about the things we talked about today. Um, so, yeah, please reach out. No, no problem at all.
Yeah, that's great. We can include that in the show notes accompanying this as well. So, um, Rikers, really appreciate your time. Maybe, um, you can come on later this year or next year to give us an update on how things are going with, um, with your operations. And, um, for the audience, appreciate you, uh, listening to this. Hope you enjoyed this episode. Appreciate your continued support. And if you can, obviously share this episode, um, amongst others in the industry, um, obviously zinc, there isn't too many, obviously zinc mines out there, and obviously Trevelli is a leader in, in the zinc space. So, um, appreciate if you can share this information amongst others in the industry. So again, appreciate your time, Rikers. Wish you well in the future. And for those listening, until next time, happy mining.