Transcription
This call is being taped because all the sheriff's department calls it. Tape it. It doesn't bother me. Oh, you always figure they know everything anyway. Yeah. How are you doing?
I'm doing pretty good, Ted. How are you doing? I'm hanging in there. I, uh, I just got the bug last week and the one that just wanted to chat with you briefly because we usually have been away for a long time. Yeah, right. And, uh, all right, how are things going for you over there?
Uh, we're quite well, quite frankly. Yeah. I was just talking to someone the other day and the experience of coming over here is one of those, you know, those good things, bad things. Bad things. I wouldn't, you know, if I hadn't come over here, I probably wouldn't be looking at a new trial on the Carol Duran's case. Yeah. And the whole bunch of a number of things have opened up. And I suppose that, you know, if I have to spend several years behind bars, might as well spend a little here, a little there, get a little variety, huh?
Right, right. Yeah. They treat you pretty good. Um, well, yeah, yeah, sure they are. It's just they haven't, they've developed this paranoia about the, uh, they have this unrealistic care that I'm going to escape. Or so I can't imagine where they're getting that. Yes, exactly.
Let's see. Oh, I just, I just wanted to call you out there. It was, you know, mainly there's a lot of, a lot of things have been happening, you know. Uh, uh, the escape adventure, which caused a great stir of activity around here and I guess some publicity over there. And now we're looking at what looks like a 95% chance that a new trial on Carol Duran's case. [Music] And, uh, hey, while this case over here gets curiouser and curiouser because they've added a couple of additional Utah transaction alleged transactions in their attempt to gain a conviction. The Colorado case. Yeah. I don't know. It, uh, I've been so overwhelmed by work recently that, you know, there's just a lot to do. But, you know, way back when, when I was, oh, I guess it was back in April, and I decided to represent myself in this case, I could just, I was just thinking to myself, I can hear everything.
Yeah, yeah. I knew we'd try to do something like that. Yeah, yeah. I knew you would. Well, I remember one time you come in. I can't remember whether something I read in your report. I think it may have been something I read in one of your reports, quite frankly. Um, that, you know, that I can't delegate responsibility or something to that effect. I don't know if I don't think it's exactly where you put it, but I can't remember. There's some, something more or less that I like to, you know, do things myself and have a hard time entrusting things to others. I can't remember my achievement. Yeah. I'm not, you know. Anyway, now, just to, well, I'm just wondering. I know you're, you're really at arm's length on on this thing. And, uh, uh, you know, we haven't really, you know, talked personally obviously since the latter part of January.
Yeah, right. Finally, the impressions about all that you've been hearing about the knee and and [Applause] okay. How do you mean? We don't like the escape and everything. I wonder what your impression of that was. Just again, just from a party who knows me but who didn't have an opportunity to speak to me either just before or after that happened.
Yeah, right. Yeah. This is something it'd be fun to sit down and chat with you about an hour. Yeah. And, uh, uh, I had mixed impressions. I was wondering if you were really getting uptight and the pressure looked like it was on you, you know, and I was wondering if it was, uh, getting looked like in your mind you're going to be convicted. So when the opportunity was there and he just took it to leave, you know, I'd like to have been able to sit down with you before and after. Let's see, you know, a little laughter anyway. Yeah. Just to see what was happening. Yeah. What, uh, you know, in your own mind, what was what was happening? What other reason for it?
You know, I had given it a great deal of thought. I, I've been moved from Aspen, been in the Aspen, the Pitkin County Jail, which is in Aspen, from January 31st until April the 11th, which is 73 days. I have all this memorized, you know. And in Aspen, I was at all, it was an open affair. The, the jail is very small. To see, it's a four, five, six, seven cells. And and, uh, you know, and all the doors are open all the time. The place has been built in 1887, but it was still, you know, here is where I could come out and we could relate to talk to other prisoners, go in their cell. You know, it's something like at the state prison, not like making the main line. And then they moved me down here. This is part of the escape because I was a security risk. And they put me in a six by twelve by eight foot high cell and ordered no one to speak to me. And quite frankly, that's when I decided to represent myself. You know, get out to go to the library. You know, the only situations where, you know, concrete to solid steel door with a little window and the food slide. I mean, this is worse than the hole, honestly. Al, this is worse than the hole. Yeah, in max, because there you can at least talk to people and see people. And it's worse than max because they never, they never exercise except for the six days, uh, since the 11th of April. So this was building up, building up, and building up. And, uh, I had over the months, I'd noticed a number of opportunities to just walk right out, walk right out. Right, right. But I didn't know quite how to put it all together. I was, as you said, I was very concerned about what people would think. And I didn't, you know, people say, weren't you afraid? People said someone would shoot you or something. So no, it was the last. Yeah. But I don't know that they, I came there and I thought a great deal about escape. And I didn't know if I had the guts to do it, quite frankly. And the guard went outside for a smoke. And there's not a one person in the whole courtroom. You think you'll have to, you'd have to see the the courthouse in Aspen. Under the windows are open and the fresh air is blowing through and the sky was blue. And I said, I'm ready to go. And walk the window and jumped out. Yeah. And I started chugging. And I had no plan. I had nobody helping me. I had no money. I know nothing. And just ran right in the afternoon. But anyway, you know, when I, when I was captured, recaptured, they brought me back in and they, you know, I spoke very freely about my adventures during those six days because something I really couldn't deny. But some, one of the investigators been working came into the room after I'd been there for some time and said, uh, well, uh, would you like to talk about the the Campbell case? Would you like to tell me all about it? Not yet, you know, more or less, would you want to confess? And all this stuff because I mean, I could see the twinkle in his eyes that, you know, he thought that I panicked and now the jig was up and I was ready to bust open. And I told him, I said, Mike, listen, uh, I jumped out of the window because I want to be free. Uh, you know, I two years ago, I could have walked out of the courthouse and, you know, no one would charge me with any crime. No one would even have noticed. I, you know, as far as I was concerned, I was just what belonged to me. And it wasn't a fear of conviction. It wasn't, you know, because I believe then that I believe more firmly now that I will be acquitted. And not only that, but I'll get a new trial on the run. It's the, uh, the irony of it all now is it's probably the only offense that they that they will ever get a solid conviction on me will be the escape. Yeah, right. But, you know, I told him that on an honest to God, I I just got sick and tired of being locked up. And I thought, you know, because way back then, I knew that I had this new evidence on Duran, although I hadn't given it to anybody yet, wondering what to do with it. And I knew that the case for me here was good. That the case they had this week. But I kept saying to myself, instead, if you if you're included here in Colorado and you go back to Utah and let's say you got a new trial in the ranch, which I estimate would take three years because even if we wanted to, the trial court level with a new trial down the state will appeal and it's the supreme court overturns, we'll have to go to federal court. The federal courts take years and years. And even if I got a new trial in Duran, three years from, uh, you know, there's a chance I could be convicted just basically on the publicity of the whole thing. I mean, I'm pretty notorious. And, uh, you know, if I was acquitted three, four years from now on the Duran case, what would I have left? You know, it may be unrealistically, but I asked myself, could you go to law school? Could you live? Did you, you know, look, would your friends be able to look in the eye to be Ted Bundy again? I figured, you know, whether you're free tomorrow or whether you're free four years from now, still gonna have to make an entirely new life and really hide from your old life, whether you would legitimately or illegitimately. Yeah. So, so that was that. Those are the priorities then. And I wasn't up against the wall. And it was something I could have done then. Uh, something I could have waited to do. But it was just honestly, just fed, you know, way up above my skin, above my chin with being being locked up.
Right. Yeah. I guess one of those things. Yeah. But, uh, still, there's still the scars and the blisters and my feet. I'm sitting here barefooting from running around in the mountains. The extraordinary experience because I, I had thought that I was, I'm a pretty strong-willed person. But, you know, believe it or not, it was the body that was strong, but the mind that was weak. But the morning after, well, I, I ran up, you know, like 4,000 feet of very steep hill was actually Aspen for the other side. And they didn't know where in the world I was. And I was feeling really good that that evening. And I started hiking up on the fire. Kept on hiking. I would have been long gone. But a very cold sleet and rainstorm hit me. And I got very cold. And then I went into a state of shock. And I managed to find a cabin. And the cabin was just, you know, there's no way to get into it. And here it was shivering and hungry and cold. It was raining and blowing. And early the next morning, like seven o'clock in the morning, you know, just sitting there seriously considering giving myself up. And it was just a complete mind blow for me. Yeah. Just longed for freedom for so long. And now, like, like I was living my ultimate dream. All of a sudden, I was willing to throw it away because I was cold and hungry. And I said, my Lord. Um, but I got in the cabin and recuperated, believe it or not. And got, and I had a second chance at it. And then I made the wrong turn. And then I hurt my knee. And three, four days of high altitude and cold got to me. And again, I my mind got weak. And it really kind of again, when I was recaptured, I just stood there. I mean, I was just, that night I went, when I walked back into Aspen, no one knew me. People, no one could recognize me. But my, I just was totally disoriented. It was like an experience I've never known before. I, I just laid down like an animal ready to die. I just, it was just an incredible experience. I was disoriented. And, you know, quite frankly, I hopped in a car and just drove. I knew I'd get caught. I mean, I didn't want to get caught, but I knew it would happen. But I was just so tired. And yeah, the best of the alternatives. Yeah. And I just said, well, let's just see what happens. And a fluke, actually. They stunned me. But, you know, anyway, that was one of the more profound experiences that, uh, yeah.
Sounds like it. They're being over here certainly did cause a stir. And you're, uh, spending most of your afternoons in the law library, aren't you?
Oh, yeah. I go up there every day for three hours. Of, huh? And, uh, imagine you're really learning law. Oh, could the sixth. Yeah, yeah. I'm pretty darn good at this old, uh, process. And, you know, uh, won a couple fairly significant victories on Friday, say, go last Friday in court. And I suppose that, um, uh, I've learned that I've learned about the pitfalls of being one of representing oneself. Are and so I'm going to avoid those. But for the time being, I am doing a great, I'm doing the in the case. Uh, and to read the research. And yeah, I think we're pretty successful there. Considering the kinds of resources that are amassed against me. And then they, they know the the various agencies and prosecutors who are working on this case. Uh, I think I'm more than holding my own. I think I'm giving him fifth, quite frankly. And and I don't think it's just me. I mean, I'm not here. I'm not, I don't know. Uh, I'm not some genius or anything. I think, but the, the fact the matter is, you know, such a a rather a decrepit case that they're really having a hard time, you know, putting it together. I have to say the least. But I don't know if you know, they had, they had quote an eyewitness subject. They had seen me at some place which, you know, fit into their theory or things. And a preliminary hearing, she looked at me and said, put on the courtroom and picked an undersheriff of the person she had seen. So their case kind of collapsed at that point. Yeah. But right now, they're, you know, they're hanging in there. I give them credit. Yeah.
So how are things over there? I've always wondered about you and a lot of my friends there and everything. I heard there was a killing room. [Music]