Transcription
I want to start with a topic that you recently wrote about that I find fascinating: winning without trying. You go on to say that winning without trying is an investment and an immersion into learning about what keeps one from disappearing into the void. And I've tried to wrap my arms around that. I understand what goes through that, but what the hell does that really mean? I don't know.
You know, if I wrote it, then I was in a certain place when I wrote it. So it's hard for me to retrospectively go back to that. But I can, uh, sort of recreate it and provide a fresh perspective as to what comes up spontaneously as I hear those words. So, winning without trying is essentially allowing things to happen, um, allowing things to come to you. So, in all things, I think that there is a great emphasis that is placed upon the idea of effort. And I think effort is actually interference. Effort when it comes to trying to achieve wisdom or peace in one's life. Effort in trying to become masterful at a craft. I think effort is a, is a, a very ineffective path.
Now, naturally, one will think that the opposite of effort is to, um, relax on the sofa. And that's exactly not true. The lack of effort means that there isn't a chase. And so there is a theme that runs through the things that come from me. And one of those themes is, um, to chase nothing. Um, and because all chases really lead to a circle of more chases. So the essential message would be that that which you chase runs from you. And the, in order to really own something, um, one has to make himself attractive to the thing that he seeks to achieve. By, by making himself attractive to that thing, so that thing actually chases him. Yeah.
And you see, all of that stuff makes sense, but it's really difficult to practice. And I had kind of read that around the time that I was watching, I just shared with you, I was watching your son play in the round before the finals, uh, in their golf tournament. And then watching some football games that weekend. And the phrase that kept coming up that weekend, for whatever reason, is for a lot of these elite athletes, especially when they're under pressure, that the game slows down. Which is kind of this whole notion that you're talking about, winning without trying. What is, for, for most of us that have never been on the professional field in, in any realm, what does it mean when the game slows down?
You know, when the game slows down, essentially, as a, um, you know, it's going into those, uh, descriptions of so-called flow states and the zone and so forth. And, uh, there's essentially no mind. But I, but I don't, you know, I think even that's a chase. I think chasing an experience or chasing a particular state is a chase for pleasure. And I think, you know, you, you said a minute ago that it's difficult. Nothing is difficult. I mean, if, if you, if you don't understand something and you try to practice it, then it's difficult. But it should be difficult because it's only difficult, it's virtually impossible because that's prescriptive. If you understand that something is here and it's always going to be here, then it isn't difficult to go there because you know that it can't be anywhere else. You actually realize that and you understand that you're not following someone's prescription that it's over there. So nothing is difficult. I dispute that. Nothing is difficult. It's actually very easy. The difficult part is moving away from prescriptions. That's the difficult part. And even that becomes easy when one understands that prescriptions do not lead anywhere. And as long as you follow what I just said, it will not help you one bit. Everything is about understanding. Nothing is difficult. And if you do it by prescription, it isn't just difficult, it's impossible.
So I know your feelings and your thoughts towards making progress, right? Or even using the word progress towards something. Um, but to get to that level of understanding, how do you know you're there? How do you know that you're getting closer to that level of understanding so you can kind of get rid of some of the conditioning and some of the prescriptions that, that we're all surrounded by all the time?
Well, you don't need to know. You know, if your desire is genuine, and you also know that the, that it isn't good or bad if your desire is genuine or not genuine. So if you know that your desire is genuine, you only need to know about progress if your desire is not genuine. Because then you're looking to get somewhere. If you're truly, if you're truly trying, if you're truly trying to learn the truth about something, then in many ways, you've already arrived by the genuineness of your search. It's just details as to what you find. But if you aren't genuine and you're doing it in order to achieve something or to put a feather in your cap, or to say that you're enlightened, or to say that you've accomplished X, Y, and Z, then you're always gonna be looking for progress because you're looking for any feathers that you can place in your cap.
So what are these, when you're thinking about these elite athletes and when you're thinking about some of these leaders that you work with, uh, what outcomes do, do they desire? Like, what are you, what are they, what is their arrival?
You know, everyone, everyone suffers from the same problems in life, be it anxiety, fear, confusion, disappointment. They just arrive by different names. And it really is learning about where all things arise from, as opposed to how to fix them. So there is nothing special or unique about anybody. Everyone is a human organism who lives in this same soup that we call society and is subject to the same turmoils under the influence of this thing called the mind. And so everyone suffers the same sort of things.
So when you think about, you know, one of the other things that kind of emerged to me when, in reading that specific discourse, is, you know, that at some point, in, in order for for us to get close to that arrival, not only do we have to get comfortable with our insecurities, but we have to learn how to move beyond them.
No, I, I disagree with every bit. Every bit of work. Great. I'm glad you did. Because... Tell me why. Because because they're all prescriptions. You have to get beyond your insulin. No, you don't. You don't have to get beyond anything. Whenever you say that, the message is, oh, well, you better do this, and you have to get beyond this. You don't have to get beyond anything. If you, if the, if the desire to do so is there, it's there. If it is not there, it is not there. If it is there, it absolutely is not good. And if it is not there, it absolutely is not bad. There is no should. You don't have to get beyond anything. You don't have to get beyond any insecurity whatsoever. Nothing is bad.
But don't you have to know what's holding you back? Don't you have to know what's keeping you stuck?
You don't even have to live if you don't want to. Well, let's just say that the 26 people that we were talking to, but they don't look fine. But there's no have to. There's only there's only is. There's only is and is not. If someone, if someone feels the desire for X and genuinely has that desire, fine. If he does not, fine. But the, the, the very even the statement that you have to get past your insecure. No, you don't. And the, the reason why that's so critical is that no one does anything by they should. If, if people had to get past their insecurities, wouldn't they be working on that day and night? No one is. What does that tell you? Do you think that you saying that they have, or you, or the sports psychologists, or the meditation instructors, or the motivational speakers, that you have to get past your insecurities and get over it and all this stuff, is that going to change anyone? Are they going to say, oh, well, because I've heard that now, I'm going to go devote my life to getting over my insecurities? It's hogwash. Nothing works that way.
Yeah, and it is. I'm with you 100 on that. Right. So the whole notion of, so no one has to get past anything. So it's a point. So what you're telling me is, it's a matter of getting started.
No, it's a matter of, is the desire there or not? So if it's not, you forget about it. If it's there, then the person already is. If it, if it's there, if the desire to go somewhere is there, you're not gonna have to tell him to get started. He's already going to be started.
Okay. When, when are you most at peace with yourself?
When I'm not with myself. That's when I'm most at peace. That's, that's not unique to me. That's any human being. When you're, when you're free of yourself, even whether it's for a moment or for an extended period, that's when you're most free. And that's when you're most at peace.
Do you deliberately try to find that state, or does it happen for you?
I think, I think, I think if it is a, it is a continual, um, dissection into, uh, the superfluousness of the self. And as that dissection continues and expands and grows deeper, then the desire to free oneself from the self naturally arises. The more that one sees how unnecessary something is, the less one is going to need to do anything to move away from it.
Well, I, I assume that's why you say, and I may screw it up, that the mere acceptability of suffering is what keeps us tied to suffering. Is that true?
Yes. But, but nowhere in there does it say that you should not accept suffering. That, that is how it's going to be read because people are prescription creators. But, well, that's how I read it. Yeah. And you shouldn't have that. That that's wrong. It's not what it means. It means face value. There should be no inference taken from that. I did not say that you should be make sure that you're free of suffering or make sure that suffering is not acceptable to you. It's not going to work. I am simply saying that the clouds are white, the sky is blue. I am not saying that they shouldn't be.
So whenever you, whenever suffering emerges in yourself, within yourself, or with somebody that you're working on, do you, is there a way for you to deal with it?
No, absolutely not. If you deal with it, then you're trying to get rid of it. And if you try to get rid of something, it only worsens. So it is, everything is about understanding. Nothing is about fixing. If you want to perpetuate all your problems and live in misery and ignorance, spend your life fixing things.
So understanding that suffering, what does it take?
Yeah, and I didn't even, that tone that you just took is so prescriptive. Because I'm listening to speakers, because then people, and they know, because then people are going to hear, "Okay, so from now on, let me write that down. I will understand my suffering." You see, you can't even speak without someone prescriptionizing it. Because this is true. And I try very hard not to. No, no, I understand. This is what everyone does. Because this is how society has created prescription mongers. Society is such a disgusting, worm-infested sewer that it has destroyed all humanity. It, you cannot even speak to a human without him. I can't write one thing without someone prescriptionizing. I see that. Sure. Because the minute that I say that one must understand, "Okay, let me write that down. All right, so I will now make a conscious effort to understand." You're already screwed. You've ruined it all. Don't even try it. It's finished. It's over.
So let me ask you, if you were reading your own writing, how would you interpret it?
That's a fantastic question. And in order for me to honestly answer it, I would have to be of a different frame of mind. And I guess approach it from, uh, approach it from a lens that I don't currently possess. That would be the only way that I'd be able to to answer that.
Well, can you get into that state of mind for a second? Because I shared with you, I, I'm one of the people who reads everything that you write. Right. And I really appreciate it. And I read it twice. And I do take notes on it. And I do highlight things that I refer back to. Is that perhaps, is there a better way for me to internalize it?
No, there's no better way. And there's no worse way. Um, from, from my perspective, when words come, they come. And I go out of my way to even say in private discourses that, you know, that don't do what I just said, because I didn't tell you to do anything. And the biggest hurdle that you have is to take what I just said and turn it into a prescription. So if you wish to take notes, you may. If you want to highlight, you can. It, there's nothing wrong with anything. I am simply saying that the clouds are white and the sky is blue. I'm simply saying that transformation comes from understanding, not that you should understand and not that you should transform. I will go, I, I have to put disclaimers on every sentence because whatever I say, the mind of the listener will turn it into, "Okay, so now I must do that."
But for those of us who really appreciate the work that you do, appreciate the writing, and are convinced in whether it's right for us or not, but we learn from it. So I'm trying to understand, what is, how do I internalize it to where I don't create prescriptions around it, but I understand it in a manner to shift my life in, in a different direction?
Those things will happen independently of you. If I throw water on you, you're not going to need to make a decision to see if you get wet or not. So it is an internal alchemy which either occurs or does not occur. And it is not me. It is the words that come through me. Between the words and the reader of those words, something internal happens or does not happen. And if it, and if it does, it does not happen, uh, by way of permission from the reader. If something transforms, it will. And if it doesn't, it won't. But you getting involved can only mess things up.
So, so I'm going to get back to that in a minute. But one of the other things that, um, I really, I really started to understand or get a better understanding of, I would say, over the last couple of weeks, that again, something that you probably forgot you wrote, that I read, is this whole idea of purpose. I get an opportunity to be around a lot of business people who are doing great things in the world. And this whole notion of, "What is our purpose as an organization? What is our purpose as leaders? What is my purpose as an individual?" comes up almost repeatedly. Yet, you believe or you say that there is no purpose. Put that in context for me.
If a person is asking what his purpose is, would it be fair to say that he believes that there should be a purpose? Yeah. And most people are asking that. Okay. Okay. If someone believes that there is a purpose for that kind of person, who is under the spell of that belief, right or wrong or indifferent, what would it matter if I said to him that there is no purpose? It would have no meaning to him. Now, if a person came and he said, "You know, I'm not certain about purpose. It sounds reasonable. I'd like to explore more about it. Is there really a purpose or is there not? I want to explore the truth." That human being does not need to be taught. But a real exploration can happen. But if someone arrives with a belief, then he arrives with a, a, a big barrier around him. There's no, I have no answer for someone who believes that there's no point. He would be silly to listen to me. So for the, for the ones who are genuinely trying to understand, is there a purpose? Nothing has a purpose. And the reason that nothing has a purpose is because we're going to die. So if, if something is short-lived and it's here for, figuratively, a minute, and then it goes away, there's no purpose. Nothing has a purpose.
So if the real question is the question that's not being asked. So when a person asks, "What is my purpose?" he's, there's something else that he wants to ask. And he's using that phraseology to hide the question. No one ever asks what they want to ask. They, they make it neat and clean. And they euphemize it. And they put it into nice little packages using taking words off the shelf that are colloquial and well-known. No one asks what they want to ask. And so even the person who asks, "What is my purpose?" he isn't asking that. He's asking something. For instance, some examples are, he might be asking, you know, "What is, what is the significance of me being here? Because I don't really feel like I'm doing anything worthwhile. I feel empty, despite the fact that I've made four billion dollars. So is there a purpose?" You know, that might be one. So that's a real question, not, not, not summarizing it into a nonsensical question like, "What is my purpose?" or "My life is miserable."
Yeah, absolutely right. My life's miserable. So, sure. If somebody does come to you with something like that, what are the layers below it that you're trying to find out or that you're helping them trying to explore?
The real question. The real question. Because no one ever asks the real question. They, they send, they send surrogate feelers. They send out, they send out, you know, opinion polls and surveys. Uh, they don't ever ask the real question. So no, no one who's, who would you, you know, for lack of a better word, advises people, who is truly genuine, serious, and seeks truth, never falls for the question being answered. If you do that, then, then you're falling for the pain, not recognizing that it's actually referred pain. You believe the shoulder, you believe the pain in the elbow actually is arising in the elbow. And that's just the sign of a neophyte. You have to understand that all pain is referred pain. No one says what they mean. No one is honest. Everyone's a liar. Everyone comes in order to project a certain self-image. And the understanding of that allows one to move deftly through the verbiage in order to arrive at the truth.
So, does one have to have suffering, deep suffering, or crisis in their life for them to try to build up that level of desire to move towards that truth? Of the great majority of us are stuck doing the same damn things that we've done, you know, our entire lives and wanting to, or at least believing that we can get better. Do we need something that's crisis to almost shake us towards that desire that you're talking?
You know, it's a very good question. There's, I think I wrote something one time that we should all have a near-death, near-death crisis every six months in order to keep us on, uh, to keep us have perspective and to keep us hungry for the truth. Um, it's a, it's a really great question. I think that I think that, um, pain, uh, is a natural, is a natural [Music] something that naturally spawns an internal search. Uh, a consistent suffering, slash misery, slash pain, really leads one inside himself. Now, the reason that everyone does the same thing over and over again, and self-improvement, those are learned behaviors. Those are the result of living in a society in which X, Y, and Z is being preached. And if that is the only voice that someone has heard for their entire life, which is basically everyone, then what else would you expect everyone to do? Um, so that is the danger of society. And that is the danger of hearing only one voice. And everyone speaks the same voice. It may be different details, but everyone comes from the voice of, "You should do this. You should learn this. This is good for you. This is not good for you. This is bad for you. This is for your health. You want to get better. You want to improve. You want to treat people better. You want to be more compassionate." That's where everyone comes from. Absolutely. There is not a single human being on this planet who doesn't come from that angle. So if that's all you hear, what else would you expect everyone to do? It's, it is, it is conditioning. It is the same as, um, it's psychological torture. It is the same as, it is the same as prisoners of war who get locked into a claw, into a room, and have speakers in their ears which say the same things over and over again. It's propaganda. That's how people get brainwashed. You know, this is all society is a cult. You know, the, the root word of culture is cult.
You seem to, um, you're not going to like this, but there are a whole lot of people, including myself, who really look up to you and appreciate the context in what you paint for most of us to, uh, to at least get a different understanding of things. Are you constantly recreating yourself without having to deal with these crises in your life? Um, and if you do, what are you doing to continually stay fresh?
Stay fresh? What do you mean? Just stay. You, you're always, your mind has to be constantly renewed. To do the amount of writing and the depth of writing that you do, if there was a whole lot of clutter in your mind, you wouldn't be able to produce the things you produce.
I don't know. So what's the question? How do you stay fresh? How do you stay renewed?
You know, I would only need to stay fresh and renewed if it was an act. It just comes. How, how does a river keep having enough water to send downstream? It receives it from the glacier, right? So there's nothing. If I was trying to stay fresh, that means that I am trying to produce material actively and by way of effort in order to project some messages that I want people to learn. And to, it's just, if I did that, I'd be bored out of my mind. I'd quit tomorrow. I have no interest in that. It, it, it's just like a flood which keeps coming. So there's no, there's no fresh. There's no plan. There's no organization. There's no, "Today I'll write about this." And this is a, there's nothing. There's not a class. You know, it just, it, you know, it is what it is. And it's not me who's doing it.
Well, yeah, and I get that component. So, you know, a lot of the, when you think of self-improvement, or however we want to term it, and you hear a lot of, "Hey, companies have to continually reinvent themselves. Individuals have to continually reinvent themselves. And leaders have to..."
Yes, yes. Okay. So let's talk about that. Okay. So the reason that they do that is because they're trying to live up to some standard that happens only when someone is not seeking the truth. When you are not seeking the truth, you're seeking progress. You're seeking progress because that gives us satisfaction that we're better today than we were yesterday. Well, it's a false satisfaction. It's not satisfaction. It's a propagation of a self-image. It's all false. It's all a lie. So where do you want to go? No one's asking that. They will just get better. That's like me telling you, "Go outside." And you say, "Well, we're going to go." "I don't know. Just just walk down the street." Okay. And then you say, "Okay, well, now what?" "Just keep walking." "Okay, where am I going?" "You're never gonna ask where I'm going because you're gonna say, 'Well, look, I walked 40 steps today.'" Right. Right. "Yesterday I walked 60. I'll say I'll only walk 40. That means I'm 20 deficits. Tomorrow I'm gonna walk 90." Okay. So if I tap you on the shoulders, they wouldn't stop. "Just that's fine. That's great that you're walking so much. Where are you going?" "Well, I don't know. My coach told me that I need to walk 40 steps a day." And I know one thing. I know Sally over there is walking 40. I know Jim on the other side, he walked 80 last week. He's just killing me. Right? That's what everybody is. I agree. Every, everyone is absolutely a mule who is being led around by the nose by people who have no interest in the truth. Blind leading the blind.
When did it, what did it take for you to get to that level of independence where you're totally agnostic of the outside world?
Since the day I was born, I guess. We are who we are, right? I mean, it, you know, I've always been a contrarian. I've, I can't tell you where that arose. I mean, why, why are we the way that we are, right? I mean, what, why is our DNA the way that our DNA? I, I don't know. Um, you know, but if the world was going to go one way, I was going to go the other. And that's been that way since, you know, maybe that's why I never drank a beer or wine, you know, or a drop of alcohol in my life. I've never had a drug. I've never, well, I mean antibiotics and those things, but, you know, never, you know, smoked anything in my life, you know. And I look back at those things and wonder, you know, why? Maybe because it was, that was yet another way of being just completely opposite of the world. I, so that, that, I'm not telling you it's a, that by being this way, opposite of the world, is a good thing or a bad thing. I'm just saying it just is. And, um, it's an element of freedom for sure.
Well, I don't know. I mean, I, I've, it's society and the masses and the traditions, um, have always been the antichrist to me. And I don't know where that arises. But, but that deep, that deep level of, um, distaste and bordering on, you know, obsessive hatred of the status quo and, and, you know, uh, the way things are and the way people are, um, has always been at the core of, of my DNA. And like I said, I, I'm not telling it's a good thing or a bad thing. And I didn't do anything to create it. We're just kind of born the way we're born.
Has freedom kind of always been something that was really important to you?
No, I don't think I ever looked at it from that angle until, you know, that when I became older, I began maybe attaching those words to it. But I think it was just very organic from the beginning. It was just to be, just, um, and I can't tell you it was from kindergarten. I don't know. But, but as long as I can remember, it's been that way. Um, I get, I'm not telling you that there was some intellectual idea that I had that led to that. I'm just telling you that that was just there.
If you weren't doing what you're doing now, what would you be doing?
I don't even know what I'm doing now. You're doing a lot of good for the world, right? I have to watch my words, right? You're an amazing writer. You have an ability to try to help the 26 of us who really follow you to go to a place in our thinking that ordinarily we wouldn't go ourselves.
I don't know what I'd be doing. You know, I don't know. Writing has always been at the, writing has always been with me since the beginning.
For clarity of thought, or do you just enjoy writing?
I've just always loved to write. And, and it just so happened that, you know, it became the medium through which, um, uh, the, I could speak most honestly. Um, it became the, the, the medium through which I could, I could really allow the internal most feelings to be brought out and explore. I've always liked to write, even, even, you know, the writing of novels and books. And I've just, that, that form of art, that is my art in many ways, that it does always appeal to me.
Well, it's a gift because you're, you're outstanding at it. You know, Stoic philosophy is kind of in a lot of business terminology nowadays and a lot of boardrooms. And you and I have touched on that in the past. What are your thoughts on Stoicism?
Um, well, it, once again, it's just yet another example of disingenuousness. Stoicism is a natural effect of understanding that what goes up must come down. Therefore, there really is no need to get excited or upset by anything because all things return to zero. The following of Stoicism is a complete failure because it's a rule. Now, it's, it's, it's society has a way of following, falling for the trap of turning all effects into causes. It turns all that is a natural effect into a goal. And it's a chance. That's a lot of people. That, that is one of its biggest downfalls. If, if Stoicism is a natural effect of recognizing that all things return to zero and there is no reason for excitement or despair, um, if that is a natural effect, then one is stoic. And that's truth because it comes as an effect of understanding. But if one says, "I am going to follow that and I am going to follow the guidelines and try to be stoic," you're a fraud. And read it every day. You're a fraud because you are following a rule. It did not come by way of understanding. It came by way of self-image. "I like being a stoic." I, you know, you sound intellectual. And everyone's a, everyone's a fraud.
No. Okay. Everyone talks about how many books they've written. Silicon Valley and all these places, how many books they've read. And did you read the latest on so-and-so? And did you know that the latest scientific studies show this? And oh, and the spirituality says that, you know, 14.6 minutes of meditation a day leads to an elevation of consciousness. You're all frauds. No one. The only reason those things are done is to show others how much you know and how cultured you are. And, and that you can, um, you can sort of steal some mojo from the Greek philosophers and make you look, you know, wise. Everyone is fraudulent unless someone is genuinely not trying to show how much they know, but they genuinely connect with something without trying to follow anything. They truly want understanding. They truly desire to seek and understand. Those people are true and genuine. There's very few of them. We live in a society in which everyone walks around with a mask and tries to out-mask the other.
Very true. When you say "everything returns to zero," do you mean neutral thinking? Do you mean that we...?
No, I don't mean any kind of thinking.
What do you mean?
I, I, what I mean is, if I count the number of smiles in your life, they will pale in comparison to the number of frowns. True. That's what I'm saying. So if that is a, if one realizes that on their own, genuinely, they will naturally actually no longer be excited by smiling. They will actually under, they will actually be aware of it. Not that they shouldn't smile, but they will know that there's no reason to be excited by this fortuitous event because the last 6,242 times it has happened was followed by an unfortuitous event. So without listening to me, if that natural understanding, through looking at your own past, it's all there. Through looking at one's own past, one's own investigation, without reading any books or following anyone's stupid philosophy, just your own evidence. Who can argue with that? A philosophy, you have to believe. There's no belief here. This actually happened to you. You lived it. By looking at that, then one can comes to an understanding of how things really are because they lived it. So in seeing that, in seeing retrospectively and investigating and examining it, one comes to his own conclusions. And that may lead to Stoicism. That may, that may lead to him being somewhat stoic. But he isn't good for being that. And he isn't smart. And he isn't wise. And he isn't an intellectual. He just has eyes and he saw. Anyone trying to follow anyone's rule?
What do you, when you think about people who are serious to really continually examine themselves or continually sit back and look at those past patterns that you're talking about, um, is there an approach that you take to, to evaluating yourself?
No. How do you know what to, what to identify as, you know, a repeated pattern?
If you want to look for, if you want to look for coins on the couch, what, what approach do you take?
Stick my hand in the, uh...
Okay, so is there a, okay, so is there an approach that you can, so do I stick my left hand or my right hand? Do I go to the back part of the cushion, or should I begin at the side, right down the middle?
Okay, someone else might go on the side. It doesn't matter. There's no approach. As soon as I give you an approach, you're screwed. Now you're going to be following an approach and therefore you're not going to be really looking for anything except to make sure that you got the approach right. Wherever there is genuineness, a way develops. Wherever there is not, a prescription is sought.
So we, we started talking about winning without trying. How do you win in life? How do you know you're winning in life? It's easy in sports. Well, what do you know, what, what does that mean though, to say that you're winning in life? Winning at what? In life? Winning at life? Being at peace with yourself more than misery. Um, I think that if you chase wins, you lose. Because anything that you chase runs from you. So the only reason that one is chasing peace is it because it feels better than misery? That means that one is chasing pleasure. And no, that isn't wrong. The problem is, it's just ineffective. So it is about understanding that if you chase one pleasurable experience over an unpleasurable experience, then you will be followed by both of them. You will never get away. But if you sit back and you see the game and you see the experiences for what they really are, it is only then that you can actually rise above them both.
Do you feel the act of writing can help some of us declutter our minds a little bit?
No. Why not? Because you asked the question. So you don't feel it helps. Again, going against the consensus that journalism. If someone is already doing it and they can't stop themselves from doing it, then doing anything because it helps is useless. Help? What? It's just more pleasure chasing. If it, if it naturally arises with someone where they have to do it, then they will do it. And such a person never needs to be, never needs to ask or be told to do it. But for me to say, "Yes, you should write. It'll help you." No, it won't. Nothing will help you. And even if it did, I still wouldn't tell you.
I, I'm getting there. All right. I got to ask you two more things. I promised somebody that I asked you. From a leader's perspective, it's really important for companies, like I said, to reinvent themselves or to future-proof themselves. When, if you're sitting in a leader's shoes or running a significant company today, what do you do to make sure that you're getting the best version of your people at all times?
Rule the company with an iron fist. With extreme, with an extreme level of uncompromise.
Can you give me an example?
Human beings give you what you allow them. If you run a company in order to be liked or to create a nice morale or all those things, then the humans who are working underneath you will will lose sight of what their precise goal is. No one creates a company to have morale. You create a company, you know, because you want to go somewhere. Whatever your, whenever your somewhere is. Um, I think one of the most important things for a leader is to really sp. The ultimate leader is the one who understands deeply his mind. And the person who understands that is the one who actually invests and devotes his, in many ways, his life to learning about his mind. That person will be able to handle any problem with, with deathly and with a plum, because he will have surpassed and conquered the need to be liked. Having surpassed and conquered that, he will not suffer from internal conflict. And what a leader suffers from most, like all other human beings, and the things that leads to the downfall of his company, is internal conflict. Self-conflict.
Well, all roads lead to that, right? All roads begin from there. And every road is bumpy. So as long as you have, as long as you have someone telling you, is, if you have anyone in your life who is prescribing to you, you're screwed. You will never, ever in your life achieve truth. You will never in your life conquer your problems. You will never in your life have peace. It is impossible because you cannot extract water from a rock. It doesn't live there. And there isn't. There might be three CEOs in the world who might, with even a single fiber of their being, have that resonate with them. It is because it is such a far-fetched and antithetical concept, which goes against fundamentally everything that all humans have believed. But the, the one with the DNA to truly learn the truth, actually looking for that, he's actually looking precisely the thing that no one's ever told him that actually goes against everything. The one who seeks the truth is always the one for whom that's a selling point, not a deterrent.
And is that something that you think is transferable from a leader to his lieutenants or her lieutenants?
I think the question is flawed. Reframe it for me. The entire, the entire company can live within a single human being. If that human being conquers his mind, even partially, he doesn't need to transfer to anyone. But I can't, I can't build it by myself.
Of course not. But you don't need anyone's approval. You don't need everyone to be on board. If you can run a company in such a way that you, you know exactly what your vision is, and you allow and accept nothing other than that vision, by, by projecting that sincerely and genuinely, not, not through stupid pep talks or selling it. You're not selling it, right? You're not selling it. You're not selling it or convincing. Never convinced. Then you will naturally attract those who either bought, who either are sold by that vision without trying to be sold, or they're out. And that leads to the ultimate efficiency. You know, come, you know, why companies lose money? They lose money because of self-conflict of the leader. That's why they lose money. But you know, McKinsey isn't going to tell you that.
But why is it so hard?
No, no, no, no, no. Why would they realize it? That's not written in any book. That isn't at the, at the, you know, "Be a Great Speaker" conference. You know, that isn't in the Wall Street Journal. No, it's not. It's not in Wall Street. So, so why?
It isn't, you know, uh, it isn't, yeah, on any of the, you know, Kiplinger's or Fortune or. It's not. It's nowhere. Why would they know that? This is the, this is completely all. This is completely goes against, you know, all that society teaches. So there's no reason why it should be anything close to forget mainstream. There's not even, you know, seven people who know this.
So, so when the CEO that you work with, when, when they come to you, for whatever reason, do they get that? Do they get this notion that everything starts with this inner conflict?
They will learn to get it, not because they're taught that, but because it will come up through the exploration of truth. But the only reason they'll come in the first place is because they have the DNA to truly seek the truth and to truly become one of a kind. So, see, if you truly want to become one of a kind, you can't go to someone who has 14,000 clients, right? You can't.
I get it. Okay. So, so by definition, that doesn't work. That's like going to school to get a degree that anybody else can get, right? So you, you know, if there's something that I want, right? If there's something that I'm looking for, let's say an expert or something, I'm not looking on Main Street. If you're on Main Street, you're already out. Okay. If you're advertising, you're out. If I should have to hunt for you, and I will hunt, day and night, because I know that that guy exists somewhere obscure. He is on CNN. Okay. If you're on CNN, you're out. Okay. If you're on any television, you're out. All right. So, so that's what I actually look for. Because I know that no one else is going to hunt. I know. So I will find that individual who is completely obscure, who doesn't have any brochures, who doesn't even want to talk to me, right? That, that's sort of the personality type, right? That it, you know, the mad genius type, who, who really has devoted his life to it, and eccentric and obsessive, right? That's the guy. It's always the guy in everything. It's never the, it's never the tie-wearing and the suit-wearing guy who gets on the stage and gives you nice talks and gives you a joke every four point seven minutes. I mean, it's laughable. All right. It's, it is, it is worse than kindergarten. These, these conferences and this whole structure of business society, you know, they call themselves serious businessmen, at CEOs at the top of these, you know, multi-billion dollar companies, and yet you, you don't even know what your own mind is doing. And you're following like, "Be happy," and this is how you, you know, you want to self-improve and read the book about being vulnerable. Are you serious? It, it is, it is so laughable. I mean, you, at least at least have, at least have the, a little bit of desire to show up, right? At least put up some good fight of sincerity, right? This is so, this is like kindergarten. No one's even in the game. They're so far from the truth, not because they lack intelligence, but because they have no desire for the truth. They're so interested in their certifications and hiring, you know, a guy with a suit and tie and a, and, you know, moose in his hair to come teach him about some five-step plan. They got it. It's, it's so, it's so laughable.
But the interesting thing here is this, though. The guy who seeks the truth loves that. He wants them distracted by, by the suits and the mooses. He wants them, okay? Because while they're distracted, he can go find the truth. Because the truth, no one's walking that road. And that's exactly what you want.
How do you determine who you work with? A lot of people reach out to you for, you know, for various purposes to work with them, whether it's athletes, leaders, celebrities. How do you know that, at least in the beginning, this is somebody that is intriguing enough for you to work with?
Yeah, you know, I'll be honest with you, none of this is by my own, like, conscious decision. So I'm going to speak to you like as if I was outside myself and, and talking about this, you know, this person over here. Um, this, this person over here actually has gotten to where, you know, he's extraordinarily hesitant by taking anybody on anymore, to the point where, you know, it's got to like bowl him over to take. And this is, this is not my decision. You know, this is not a, this was not a decision that was made. It's just, it's an internal, it, there's been an an evolution towards that. And that it just, like the desire doesn't really exist. Um, so the, the person really has to be wanting the truth and be sincere. And, you know, no excuses. And, you know, not, "I don't have any money." You know, "I don't have time for that crap." Right? I mean, are you either all in or you're not? And, you know, if, if money is your excuse, you're, you know, people have come who didn't have any money, but they found the money. And believe me, that's the whole other podcast. But if you want to get somewhere, then believe me, you'll, you'll do whatever you have to do. And actually, the person who's willing to do that is the person that you want. Because that guy is actually very sincere. Um, so it, it, the desire really isn't there that much. Um, but when you, you see it, it kind of restores your sort of, um, you know, joy a little bit. We say, "Oh, that, you know, that would be a very interesting exploration with, with this individual." Because, well, he's one of the rare ones.
So, can you just stay outside yourself for one real quick moment, and we'll end here. Can we go back to the question I asked you? Um, if you were not yourself, how would you read your discourses and how would you read the things that you publish?
And I can only guess. And, and I, I, I, I would imagine that it is something that I, it would depend upon my DNA. If my DNA was, um, societal and common and of the norm, then I would look at it and say, "This is out the window. This is crazy stuff. I'm not going to read this." Okay. If my, if my DNA was had a bent of seeking somewhat truth, or was amenable to it, or was sensitive to that possibility, that I would look at it and say, "There might be something here." Because something actually resonates with me. And I can't really tell you what it is, but it kind of speaks something to me that, you know, no one else is saying. So I might say that. And, you know, I don't, in any way, want to tell you that anything that I write is good, or I'm doing anything beneficial. I don't, I don't want to go there. I mean, I'm just, but I just pumps. You know, I do.
So, like, so like when you read something that that intrigues you, do you take notes? Um, do you write, like, in the book? Do you like highlight in the book? Or is that a, do you do any of that, or do you just read and put it down?
No. Yeah. If there is, I mean, I very rarely read books. But I, I, I used to a lot. But, um, but so once again, I think a very important thing to understand here, Mo, is that if I say that I do something, it's almost like I'm making a decision to do it. That doesn't mean anything.
I get it. Okay. So, so, so what I will say, I look back on myself and what I find this person doing, I will say that the most genuine thing that he does, that that I can see, is that if there is something that really resonates, he will write it like verbatim in order to explore and to understand. You know, take a shower, go sit down, you know, rub his hands together, and can't wait to dive into it to learn. That's, that's what I will say.
Yeah. We'll see. It's no different to me than some of us watching a perf, great athlete. And, you know, watching Tiger Woods approach that 18th green and say, you know what? Just the, the presence that he brings to it is different than a lot of other people. And that just kind of sticks in the back of your mind. So at least it's good for some of us to know how you would approach it.
I don't know why it would be. I mean, I don't, I don't even care how I approach it. So because I don't approach it. You know, nothing that I say is by volition. So I'm not even doing it by volition. So why should somebody else?
Well, 26 of us, we we appreciate that. Okay.