Chapter 1: Breaking Down Morelia azurea In Green Tree Pythons | Trap Talk's GTP Species Series

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>> Tus 20 seconds.

10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 Z. Trap Talk Reptile Network. The coolest REPTILE NETWORK IN THE WORLD. 722 episodes, baby. That's where we're at. Welcome to Trap Talk with MJ. New GTP Species Series. This is chapter 1 with your host, me, of course, but Patrick Holmes, Ryan Young. Two of the best doing it, dude. Are you kidding me? So, you guys are in for a treat.

Man, I'm so excited because I'm not going to lie, guys. Uh, news flash, I don't know a lot about localities. Oh my god. Listen, I know what I've purchased. I know what I'm looking at for the most part, but I h I've always had so many deep questions about, well, first and foremost, subspecies. What do you mean they're subspecies? Never knew that until like my third or fourth year keeping green tree pythons. And as we know, green tree pythons are blowing up. Okay. So I just don't want a lot of uh other people to miss out on some of the foundation information I think you should know like these are important facts important knowledge I think uh knowing about localities or the subspecies which our goal here with these with this series is breaking down the subspecies and the localities within the subspecies why they are what they are why they're found where they're found are they even is it even a numpford Ryan Young would say I don't know we're going to get down to it man but it's been a while since I've been excited you know, coming in wet behind the ears. Like, I mean, guys, you know, might be a treat for some of you, but I won't be talking as much because I'm going to be listening. Definitely got questions for my boys, but we have an outline on on tonight's episode. We have an idea how we want to roll these things out. Um, I do want to say anyone who's watching tonight, anyone who has questions in the chats, please come uh entertain any questions that you might have that relates to the topic because I really want your guys' questions as well. I'll try to get to all of them. If you really want me to like make sure I get your question to the homies, then super chat all day. I I don't miss those. But again, I'll do my best.

All right, I just want to remind you guys if this is your first time watching, if you're enjoying these episodes, if you're literally one of these trap talk, you know, closet, you know, watchers, listen, just hit the subscribe button, dude. And if you hit the notification bell, select all, you'll be reminded every single time uh because for whatever reason, 89% of uh my viewers are not subscribed. All right, it's a good portion. So, we could we could beat that up, I think, in 2026, right? So, again, if you're enjoying these, man, help this channel grow organically by just hitting that subscribe button. Uh, and if you really want to uh drop a comment, please do as well. I appreciate all feedback. I just want to remind you guys, you know, Trap Talk is uh seven days a week. You can hear a brand new episode related to reptiles every day of the week right here out of the network. Um, you can also listen to all these episodes on all major audio platforms. There's Buzz Sprout, Apple Podcast, iHeart Radio, Google Play, all the relevant ones. That's where you can hear all these episodes. All right, so go at it. Have fun. If you're not really a YouTuber, all right, you don't like to see things, then go ahead, dude. Go listen to them. I know I know a lot of you guys are grinding working while listening to these episodes. So, that's why I feel like the audio platforms might be your cup of tea if that's you out there. Okay? And again, shout out to all my supporters out there. Thanks for listening.

Um, I'm excited for tonight's sponsor, The Reptile Super Show. It's happening this weekend, January 10th and 11th. Woo! Stephen Kush is actually on his way. Dang, you missed out on this episode. You could have been sitting right here. But he's commuting all the way from Texas. And yeah, my boy's about to pull up. Many of us are going to be there at the Reptile Super Show happening again this weekend. Pomona Fairgrounds, January 10th and 11th. Pull up. It's going to be a time, man. 400 plus vendors. Some of the best people I've met in the hobby vend this show and I wait to see a lot of you guys. I will be there with Morph Market and it's going to go down.

SPEAKING OF MORF MARKET, SHOUT OUT TO MORF MARKET SHIPPING, another amazing sponsor of tonight's episode. Listen, yeah, little issue with the shipping, but guess what? It's fixed. All right, no need to panico out there. And first and foremost, no other company was matching these guys rates while that it uh situation was going down. Just for the record. All right, saw some people talking out there. Lies. No, nobody was matching Morph Market rates ever. And we're back up and running. So guys, check out Morph Market Shipping. Go to morpharket.com. And yes, shout out to Morph Market Shipping and the entire team over there who have been saving tons people tons of money. All right. Been have talking a lot of private talks with a lot of you out there who aren't really publicly saying you saved a lot of money, but I get why we I know you don't want to. We get it. But I'm just so happy there's so many of you out there. So guys, if you're looking to ship ship with Morph Market, trust me, one-stop shop for all your Morph Mark, your reptile purchasing and shipping needs. They're the best, dude. Hands down, they're the best. Thank you, Morph Market shipping.

Uh, also tonight's episode's brought to you by Work Shop Reptilium, Josh Hansen. Man, I'm so excited to announce this guy's uh partnership with Trap Talk because, man, first and foremost, if you're not following him already, then you have no idea what type of enclosures this guy works with. Okay, he really thinks outside the box. Bigger is better when it comes to his animals as far as what what he keeps them in. And I'm going to be flying to his place sometime this year, and I'm so excited because Josh Hansen has some really, really nice animals. Uh he works with over 40 just under 50 species of reptiles, okay? snakes, uh, gecko species, uh, lizard species. So again, check them out, please. This is gonna be a name you're going to be hearing a lot of, uh, definitely in the future and even currently. So, Workshop Retellium, Josh Hansen, uh, follow him on Instagram, also on Facebook, and there's a website and they're on YouTube. Find all the links in the description below.

All right, guys. Listen, uh, again, shout out to all my USR supporters. You guys are amazing. Shout out to everyone in the chats. You guys are beautiful. Who's in the chat? I want to see who's here. Oh, oh, what? You already know. You know, it's going to be informative episode when the homie Williams in the building. Okay. Shout out to William. Shout out to amazing other people in the chats. Homie um Aiden Bradley, another guy. Aiden. Aiden's a young gun right here, bro. If you want to talk about somebody who has top tier locality stuff and is working it with some other cool [ __ ] go follow him right now. But all right, guys. Enough is enough. I want to learn tonight and I'm excited because I got Ryan Young. I got Patrick Holmes. Two of the best doing it when it comes to this. Period. All across the board. Doesn't matter if it's local designer, all that [ __ ] man. Ryan will [ __ ] on all that. You know what I'm saying? So, listen. It's going down. Do what you got to do to get your mind right and DO WHAT YOU GOT TO DO TO STAY HYDRATED. THIS IS CHAPTER ONE. THAT'S NOT THE RIGHT MAP. RYAN Young will tell you it's bigger than that. I'm excited for this episode. Let's go.

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And we're live. Episode 7:22. Uh Ryan, I apologize for that picture of a monory with a beak. I forgot to maybe like I forgot to make an edit, but you know what? Sorry, pal.

>> That's all right.

>> All right.

>> Well, you were supposed to start with Virus, but

>> Oh, okay. Listen. Uh I was I already [ __ ] up off the back by the how we how we rolled it out. Okay. And but I asked him, "Should I change it?" And he's like, "No, don't change it. It is what it is I was like, "All right." So, all right. Welcome, boys. How you guys doing?

>> Good. Yourself?

>> Very happy to have you guys both here. Um, very, you know, I don't didn't take anything lightly as far as what I mean with you guys do being two of the best, you know, information-wise, breeder wise. Man, I've learned a lot from you two, but definitely wet behind the ears when it comes to the subspecies side of things. I can't even name all of them. I'm not going to lie. I really can't. Um, but this is why this needs to happen because I feel like uh knowledge is power and and and I don't know why a lot of the things are why they are in the green tree python world, you know. Um, but you know, with you, Brian, I think I told you when I first started meeting you, that's when I started hearing these subspecies names. I only heard of the name Pure before. And then when I started hanging out with you, you started throwing Azura and I don't even know if I'm saying that right, but you started throwing all these and I'm like, what is he talking about? But I feel like you're very stubborn with like not wanting to call them other than what they are. Am I right? Like that's your that's your thing.

>> Yeah, that's what I'm into. But

>> it's it's hard to have green python friends. Uh if I'm that picky about it,

>> I want to know why as far as like like why Okay, so why is it first and foremost you guys think so many people don't know about the subspecies side of things? Like why was it so overlooked for so long? Could anyone answer that?

>> It's relatively new.

>> Okay.

>> What? Two two relatively new officially. What? 2019?

>> Yeah. But anybody with eyes should have figured it out.

>> You You know, you you would think that, but it seems like you and me and three other people on the planet were the only ones that like really were seeing what was going on.

>> Oh man. You know, there was papers published in like the 60s where guys were like, "Oh, yeah, these museum specimens from the north clearly look different than the ones from the south."

>> Yeah.

>> So, it's not, you know, it's just uh I think you have a problem with people. It's a green snake doing basically the same thing all over this tropical place. And it's easier to just lump them all together than it is to actually figure out what's going on. But let's be honest, they're all different, right? There's so much like variety when it comes to country pythons. Like dramatic difference. And what's also crazy, which we'll learn tonight, they're different within each other. Like which you know, Numford, what the [ __ ] does Numford have to do with BAK? Which I get it.

>> But they four.

>> Num four. I'm sorry. Num four. Two O's. My bad. Num four. But I will

>> spell it with one or two O's. They're both correct. There's just no D at the end.

>> I like just like the just like my paychecks. I like extra O's and zeros, you know what I mean?

>> Yeah, the two two O's is Dutch. That's the best version.

>> [ __ ] yeah. I like the Dutch. Dutch are great people by the way. Um, but yeah, kind of going back to what I was saying though, you know what I mean? Like I I was telling Ryan before and we're going to kind of get started the history behind the the subspecies names like like what we're talking about tonight. But man, I've seen what I've could have sworn or what it could possibly be a a numb for, but like I've seen examples online which are the extreme looking versions of numbum for and we could admit that they look pretty much different than what some of these high melanistic beaks could look like or a basic bak could look like. They're, you know, a good handful of examples of these looking uh subspecies, you know, that that look different.

>> Yeah. It's just whether that actually is what it is or not. It's

>> 100% that's the actual question.

>> I would I would bet it's just, you know, a different phenotype within the species and it's not entirely

>> um

>> exclusive to that island.

>> Yeah, I would be surprised if it was just a

>> exclusive to that island. the original ones that came in uh that you'll see pictured in like the Kivid and Wiseman book, they were labeled as Yapen Island green pythons.

>> Yeah.

>> And the reason that was

>> there's actually a reason for that. I contacted people that dealt with those back then. And they said the reason is the animal dealers told the seller in Europe that they came from a a big island near Bio. And so they didn't they didn't tell them it was from Yapen. Those people just looked at a map and said, "Oh, it must be Yapen."

>> And because you get stuff like that a lot, you know, in the trade, unfortunately.

>> Well, and and interestingly, Yapin is actually closer to than Numor is um

>> Let's take a look at it. I mean, because this whole subspecy topic tonight, this is the map we're looking at here, right? Correct me.

>> Yeah. So far on the left is Numbour and if you continued across the Cindery Bay you would reach u Manquari and the Birds Head Peninsula.

>> Yeah.

>> And then Supiori is that a branch. It's not an actual island. They kind of treat it like an island. They kind of don't

>> there's a channel. Apparently there's a channel between Bo and Superior.

>> It's not even a channel. If you look at it on Google Earth, it's it's maybe a creek. It's like you can

>> That's That's funny as [ __ ] that you say that because I was looking and I'm like, "Where the [ __ ] is the channel?"

>> Yeah. No, I It's probably one of those like during the rainy season maybe it's a little wider than

>> Yeah.

>> Not. But I think there's even a road that crosses it and then that cluster Bay is obviously the big island in the middle and then the cluster of small islands down off the southern coast are the um Padido Padiato.

>> Yeah, Paido is like Yeah, Podo is right there. And there's a few other ones, but Podo is the only one that we get uh label tags.

>> Why is it Why isn't Pido on the map here? Why does it say Oi or whatever? Owi, I'm sorry.

>> Well, that's the Those are the Podo Islands, but one of them is actually called Podo, and then every one of them has their own name.

>> Yeah. Got it.

>> Yeah. And there's also um a little bit to the west of there that you can't really see. There are um the Shoutton Islands, which who knows if there's condos on those islands either, but they're kind of south, but almost in between Numour and and uh and the main island. Numour is also not that big relative to those islands. The way that it's showing on the map,

>> it look they look far away on the map, but I'm assuming it's not that far away, correct? Like how how long would a boat ride take? I want to say I want to say that it's 50 miles from Byak to Numpur and like 30 miles um only 30 miles to uh um Yapen to the

>> Yeah, it's a it's a 15hour boat ride from Bio to Yapen.

>> That's pretty close then I would say. Right.

>> I that seems like a long ways to me but

>> I mean well because boat it depends. I mean I'm sure you're going on a little rinking boat, right? You're not going on a [ __ ] power horse [ __ ] you're probably paddling if anything. Yeah,

>> right. You're

>> No, they're pretty big power boats.

>> Okay. I didn't know. I'm not I wasn't I don't have the experience. That's why I wasn't too sure like how they transport in the

>> Yeah, I imagine it would be similar to riding a big ferry in the in the States.

>> Okay. So, Okay. So, let's get into why it is and and can we say what the proper subspecies name is of tonight's topic? Uh,

>> well, we're not talking about a subspecies tonight. We're talking about a full species which would be currently Morelia aurora.

>> That's a if you call it by the nominate form which you know so it's Morelia Aurora Aurora and because it is one of three subspecies. It's the nominant. It is a full species and a subspecies and a locality for the person who told you that it's not a locality.

>> Yeah. Aggressively. and you know went on a tangent how I don't know what the [ __ ] I'm talking about and I'm like holy [ __ ] dude like like not even Ryan treated me like that before I was like dude relax like I can't call back locality like Ryan am I wrong by calling Bak locality like would you correct me

>> it's it's yeah that's it's probably one of the most precise localities you can even get

>> 100%

>> I'm not going to say the name

>> that's reli that's relatively reliable

>> but Cassandra yeast infection you need to back off dude okay [ __ ] get off my bumper Because BX locality, you just heard it from two of the best. All right. So,

>> it's all it's all of those things. It's a species, a subspecies, and it's a locality. It's all of that.

>> Well, I'm glad. So, let's but let's kind of get into it. You know what I mean? Um, you know, Ryan, like first and foremost, I know you kind of did some research on the historical side of things of like why it was named what it was named, I believe. Right. Or or the whole, you know?

>> Yeah, I did some digging. Um the original description for uh condro python a zurius was in uh what 1874 by Alfred Bernard Meyer a German

>> u ornthologist. He was mainly into birds and anthropology. And in 1871, he took a Dutch steamer to the East Indies cuz he was heavily influenced by Wallace and his trips to the East Indies. And um

>> upon his return uh he ended up being the head um person at the National History Museum at the Dresden in Germany. And unfortunately, it sounds like um he was forced out of that job in 1905 due to being a Jew in Germany and anti-semitism unfortunately. But um but he ended up going to he spent time he spent a lot of time on Misor which was what they called bio back then and superior. And he it by uh the best estimate those snakes were probably gathered by locals in probably 18 72 and he got them probably traded. He was there mainly getting birds. Uh he did a lot of bird of paradise stuff, casawary stuff. He was really interested in humans. Uh he ended up trading glass beads for human remains, birds, and green pythons and a lot of other stuff. There's I think there's there's probably 40 species that he had an influence on their naming.

>> You know, it's 2026 and people are still into that whole human remains thing. It's kind of weird just [ __ ] just kind of throwing that out there. Um, but yeah. Okay. Kind of let's talk more like you know because at what at what point did things elevate to the point of importation and then you know obviously that's what the historical paper says as far as where the root of this started from. But like you know the whole numper name the these from what I understand were named by people pulling them out of the wild and shipping them over here. Correct. Is that when things started becoming labeled you guys would say? or when did the labeling start?

>> Uh the 90s probably.

>> Yeah, that I I can remember the the label numbum for um on bok type animals for for to throw it out there right at the beginning. We'll just call them all Box. Makes it a lot easier than saying anything else. But um as far back as I've been paying attention to to these things specifically, which is like 2006,

>> yeah, there was there was people selling bios when I got into it in 98.

>> Yeah.

>> My my um my first bo was being sold as a sauron at a at a show. Very obviously not a sor. It was

>> Yeah, I was I was at Dave and Tracy's house talking to them one time and and we were talking about the different condos and she was like I they started getting some of the first you know different localities and she was like how do people think these are the same thing? She's like I know

>> if you look at a bio like how do you think that's any other snake? Like this is the most you know. Well, that's that's the thing about the the current um the current taxonomy is that it's kind of incomplete uh in my opinion and and Daniel says the same thing that uh

>> we should have as a fully separate species and uh and then the northern mainland stuff as a species and then the Veritus stuff separate. And um to me they're all dramatically different from one another, but the two mainland subspecies much less so from each other. But to to look at to be a snake person

>> and look at an a bo and an aru side by side. Even a bo just like this that has white scales, like you'll have untrained eyes look at that snake and say, "Oh, that's an aru because it has white scales on when in in reality every condro locality has white scales in the wild. They're just in different arrangements and different amounts.

>> But to me, when I've seen a bunch of these animals and even a long time ago, to look at a bok and an aru side by side and think that they are the same species of snake is just crazy to me because to me they're dramatically different animals.

>> Yeah. And you know, these are both uh pictures courtesy of Ryan. Um, and even what we're just talking about again, white spots, but this looks differently, uh, as far as like, you know, melanism in this snake versus the other snake had zero melanism. And I'm assuming that first

>> that first snake, that first snake you showed off was a yellow neonate, right, Ryan? Or am I tripping?

>> Uh, no, she was actually a red.

>> Okay. Can you remind me what it is to look for in the eyes, guys, when it comes to like because I know with Bax especially, right? if the eyes would be silver if there was a yellow neonate Patrick or what what color would the eyes would be?

>> Uh that that doesn't seem to hold up really well into adulthood with these animals. Um they the it seems like their eye color can can be quite a bit as adults.

>> Yeah, you can't. It's I thought that female was I thought she was a yellow and but when I

>> I would have guessed yellow too.

>> When I bred her the male was easy to identify as a yellow. She was unambiguous. I assumed she was a yellow, but when I bred them, I got red babies, so she would have had to have been a red.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. That actually really surprised me to see that because I would have guessed yellow on both of those adults.

>> Yeah. My very first snake, Mimi, which was a yellow neonate bak looks very similar to this. I will say like Mimi has more of a lighter eye tone coloration, more of the silver side, which I I was like, "Okay, and now I see it." But again, I guess that doesn't really hold up. Um, because

>> yeah, the only thing about Azura eyes, they have two bands when when they're Neos, you can see the two bands in their eyes.

>> Yeah. Yeah. And they're they're the only ones that always have that. That's you see that trait in like the kind of triple band thing in Utara Enzis, but they don't all have it. Um, which is an interesting thing. And it's more prominent um with the mainland stuff in the in the yellows versus the reds, whereas the Bio it's across the board. Um, but the the yellow bios have a lighter ground color to their eyes than the than the reds do sometimes as as neonates. I'm talking about right out of the egg. Um, and and yes, sitting here like I would have put money on that animal being a yellow baby. Um, the one that you've shown twice and and that um I've seen animals in both of y'all's collections with that phenotype.

>> Yeah. that were labeled numb for. And this is just if we're gonna we'll go ahead and touch on the numb for thing.

>> Yeah, please.

>> When I f when I first started seeing numbum for animals, they were animals that were clearly red babies. They had a considerable amount of black. They had lots of blue undertones, but still had the like classic yellow, like lateral yellow patching,

>> which is my favorite look in a in a VOC. um and all the different iterations of that that that look. But um so what that tells me is that it's possible that a lot of the reds on numbum for look like that and a lot of the yellow ones have that white flowery look or whatever. But the much more likely scenario because this has been the pattern that's held true for decades with green tree pythons and imports and labels is that that look got that label back then because one person did it and it was a nice snake and then everybody else jumped on putting that label on similar looking animals. And the same thing has happened more recently with this other phenotype with that kind of white flower look that otherwise largely patternless uh kind of like olive green and all the white speckling. I've seen that look more recently get the numbum for label and I think it's much more likely that those are just similar looking animals getting a label that sounds more exotic because bocks are the most commonly mislabeled locality because they are the most commonly imported locality far and away the the most commonly imported locality. you have just mathematical probability of mislabeling because there's so many more of them, but also much more intentional mislabeling in order to sell the animals. I have long since lost track of the number of bo that I've seen that were labeled as something else or labeled as crosses. You see them at shows all the time. you see wild caught or or maybe farm hatched babies that are labeled as aru bio or ga or something that doesn't even contain bo and they're just all clearly pure bios and those labels are strictly to try to get the animals to move because the bo label doesn't sell snakes as much because it's so common.

>> Yeah. And of course marketing is marketing. You throw a new name out there, it's going to create some sort of excitement which I feel like that's kind of the thick of what we're in now. It's kind of the whole, you know, ball python thing, right? Like it's just more names the better.

>> Yeah. But it's and it's been it's just it's been that way for a very long time. I'll give you an example. Also, animals that tended to lean towards the higher yellow patching, especially ones that were yellow babies, those tend to get the pod the podo label. Many of the animals that I've seen with the podo label have that look from supi. Uh many of the animals that that I've seen labeled superiori had the look that is now that I was just referring to that's now called numbum for. So the more olive color they tend to have a lot of blue and black blue clouding on the belly and

>> the white diamonds the white the whites are unique like they're they're like spots. They're like um they're like almost circle in a I'm about to pull one up of my girl who gave me a clutch two years ago. Um and it's hard to tell in this picture but you could kind of see exactly what we're talking about. And again, I was telling Ryan, I've seen examples of this on on like people from different countries where they're like way extreme like that white dot that's hard. Again, it's hard to see in the picture, but the white dots, you know, you don't see that in other BAKs at all. And and I feel like, you know, how how is this not going to be considered a different snake, you know, if we're going to be all picky about things and [ __ ] like that? I don't I don't get it.

>> It's just one of the phenotypes that that species has.

>> Yes. Just like some of them well, that you have one that has both phenotypes. It's got the black

>> and the white.

>> But so what you're saying is like let's say that that quote unquote Numford was not numpy for was not in the picture and it was just to another BAK. I could still make something that looks like that is what you're saying like there that like any Bak could make something that to look like that.

>> Yeah. I mean, the most like, you know, as as Patrick touched on, the most likely explanation is these are all from the same exact place and they just give them different labels to try to help move them. Um, you know, whether they whether that look occurs on Numour or not, I don't, you know, whether we'll ever find that out for sure. My guess is they probably have all those phenotypes on all the islands. And I would probably I would actually be more surprised if any of the snakes came from supi numour or the podo. I don't I would put my money on every one of them just came from biohook.

>> Well, and uh um Brian Fisher said it and oh no, it was Aiden that said it. Sorry, I'm looking at my computer on the other thing and seeing a different uh um uh avatar. It was Aiden that said it. um that I think he says I think Dan would say you see all those phenotypes in any given area um that is occurs and I I tend to agree. It's in it'd be interesting though to actually go to Numour because it's so far separated from the the main island to see if there is any um consistent uh differences from the animals on that island. And it may turn out that there are and they don't look anything like the ones that we've called numb for in the trade because those are all main island animals.

>> Or same with the other one that I can't pronounce with a P. [ __ ] I don't want to butcher it. Paido. Yeah. Jesus Christ. So, right. Like look how tiny those islands are. How do we really know? Like unless we're physically going ourselves.

>> Yeah. I like I said, I would be surprised if any animal that's ever been sold as a podo actually came from there. After learning all the ins and outs of how the trade works over there, it's very unlikely any of them ever came.

>> I'll I'll give you a great example of this. because of that one book that had that picture of that bioch that was labeled as a yapin that got just because of that one photograph and that one book that got perpetuated for a long time and there is a I won't say any names but a very very well-known importer of condro that every time they got in blaze biak neonates anytime they got a blaze by they called it a yapin every single time like they'd get a shipment of Box and any any of them that were blaze babies which are not common but they do occur um usually from mixed clutches and they would call that a yapin. That's just how the trade works. People just put the labels on [ __ ] that they think will sell it. It's just like you get a bunch of gauras in and you call all the uh you call all the red ones cyclops and call all the yellow ones ga or you get in this happened recently and I don't know where they came from but I'm just saying it's funny to see a shipment come in

>> and all the reds are labeled arf and all the yellows are labeled manquari

>> which you know and they're all the same thing so it doesn't really matter. It does matter though calling a blaze bio a yapin because they are not the same thing. Yeah, that isn't even the same.

>> Wait, you can get you can make one of those blazes from local pure locality pairings. Those bl uh like especially a bak pairing.

>> Yeah, but they don't turn into anything. They're just

>> Aurora actually has an orange baby.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> They try to sell it as, you know, wosy or something, but it

>> Yeah.

>> I've only ever seen it produced in captivity once, and it was plain as day with yellows and oranges in the same clutch.

>> Yep. And the yellow, those orange babies have a different phenotypic looking pattern.

>> And they came out of animals labeled as numb for. And ironically, the port that the numbum like that the boats go to out of there is the wosy port. So, you know,

>> Oh, interesting.

>> Maybe those did come from numbum for, maybe they didn't. But

>> yeah,

>> that European guy bred a pair of quote unquote number fours with the numbum four appearance and got a perfect split clutch of orange and yellow neos.

>> That's badass. I didn't know that.

>> And those yellows have a different pattern like they are Phoenix or those orange ones, you know, they they quickly within a few months look like a yellow baby. And as adults, I don't know if you could tell them apart, but

>> they're they hatch with the yellow babies. So, how that's inherited or what that is, there's a lot of work still to figure that out.

>> I want to know more about this orange neo. Can we I feel like I've seen a picture somewhere before. Um, where can I find that, Patrick? Do you have a picture of it or do you know where we could find it?

>> Off the top off the top of my head. I I don't know.

>> I can I can send you a picture later tonight. I've got a picture of the babies.

>> So, how long ago was this, Ryan? Uh it was a few years ago he did it and he bred that he ended up breeding the female uh to a I think he bred it to he lost his male numour and he bred it to a kofi and still got orange babies. So that female must have been the orange baby.

>> Interesting. Um, another thing about numour and maybe other of the uh um species we're talking about as far as in in this subspecies topic, you know, why why are there such a range in the difference of neonates, how they look, Patrick? I mean, you've hatched a lot of baks, dude. Um, I'm just now coming to the fact of like realizing how much potential there is working with captive bred BAKs and breeding them, you know, generationally back into each other. I'm so excited. But I feel like you've seen a lot of different um you know, levels of how extreme these red neonates could look like. Um, can you kind of explain how that's working or like what your theory is with that?

>> Well, first of all, um be are obviously far and away the most variable type of green tree python. I mean it all green three pythons are variable snakes and you can see a pretty serious degree of variability in any given population it would seem. Um but would with bo are like they're like if if we're like rating variability on a scale of one to 10 there's not another locality that even reaches three if bo is a 10. Boxes are just like insanely variable. And so it makes sense to see a really high degree of variability in neonates. But the interesting thing about it and and this goes to answer one of the questions that's in the chat of um if we see um the level of variation in phenotypes uh in captive bred ones. And the answer to that for me so far has been no. And um there the the adult looks that we get um in captive bred Boxes seem to be only a very small fraction of the variability that you see in wild bo.

>> Yeah.

>> And I'm sure there's there's a few different factors there. Now, for for me personally, I have a bias because I've hatched out nine clutches of Boxes and they were all sired by the same male.

>> Yeah. but all uh but on on like I don't know si five or six different females that were that were dramatically different looking animals yet just with the exception of one or two outliers per clutch they all kind of ended up with the same basic look and I you know I sent you some pictures of some of the babies for and then some of what they turned into like that animal in particular right there that animal now has nice black diamonds, but he, you know, other than that and his mom was a very very heavy heavy on the black animal. So, you know,

>> I I unfortunately didn't download these in order, dude. So, they're [ __ ] all over the place.

>> That's okay. Is it Is it I mean, is it this or look kind of similar to what you're talking about?

>> Um, no. No, it was one of the um it would have been one of the indoor pictures with the white background. Um or maybe even taken in the tub. Um, but an animal that was green with black diamonds. Um, that animal right there, um, is a is a captive bred one. And and I I also sent you pictures of what she looks like now. That's what I when I got her in 2021, and she's a little heavier on the black than average, but she's has lost almost all of that yellow. Um, it's just the common thing that, you know, it takes these animals six or seven years to stop losing yellow pigment. Um, I looked at one today that was an insanely high yellow animal as a juvenile and now he's probably 85% green.

>> Yeah.

>> Um, and uh, but that that female right there was captive bred. Um, and

>> she was I didn't I didn't produce her, but she was also sired by the male that produced that sired all all nine of my Beyond clutches.

>> Yeah, I think I found the picture of the female you're talking about. So that Neo is now this, correct?

>> Um, yeah. And it's actually that that one's actually a male. And no. Um, but that and maybe I didn't even send you the picture. So that's one of mine from uh um from Nova and Warlord. And that animal right there, which is not a crazy looking, was probably was one probably one of the two coolest looking neonate that I've ever hatched out. And I mean it had an insane bold black pattern and just really really busy and bold pattern. I thought it was gonna turn into something really special.

>> Yeah.

>> He just looks he looks like that look right there is what you can expect from almost every captive bred by that was a red baby. They end up in that that general range. And the trick is going to be, and I truly believe that this is possible, and just nobody has really been dedicated long enough to do it, but I think that you can produce designer level uh

>> oh,

>> green tree pythons with all that are just pure bo blood if we spent a few generations holding them back and breeding them the most extreme phenotypes.

>> Well, yeah. Look at Monory [ __ ] Look at the stuff Gary works with and you know David Brahms and that that's just a couple just off the top of my head, but that's already a proven fact. Like there are certain localities where if you work with long enough, dude, they're next level. They're like [ __ ] you've never seen. Um and and again, kind of going back to what really confused me, you know, you know, when I had my very first success at breeding condos, it was a pure BAK clutch. And I, you know, you know me, Patrick, I started with just a lot of B-ax. And I even took in a lot of red baks. And I never knew red baks could produce reds that look like this. Like, and and I was very thrown off like in a good way. I was I could not believe that my pure Bak clutch had red neonates that got to this red level. Um, and then it reminded me looking at some of your old stuff, I was like, "Holy [ __ ] you produce stuff like this." Like, this is stuff that does come out of you. And this is was more I was more expecting this like I was expecting textbook byak looking red neonates which I would have been fine with

>> but really threw me off to see like the real real dark stuff. And what's crazy is somebody else I'm forgetting his name dude. His name's Mike. I know that. I know that it's rep something reptile but he had a pure biat clutch which were even more insane than than what I think any of us have hatched out.

>> Oh Mike Yeah. My Mike My Schmider had a really really bad

>> I was like

>> I wasn't even jealous, man. I was so happy just to see those because it's my point. I'm like they're BX are [ __ ] nasty, dude. Like holy [ __ ] Those those are going to turn into be something crazy. And you're right on a designer level. Not to [ __ ] on your ears right there, Brian. I'm just saying like I get it now. I I think I think locality level is going to match designer level. I I really I think it at some point maybe not maybe not to the highest point but to the mid I would think

>> I think that what what first of all just a little side note the male that sired that clutch for Mike I actually found that male for him I knew

He was looking for one, and I saw somebody selling one. And I thought, man, that male is a perfect match for that female. And the guy lived close enough to him where he could go pick the animal up. And I was like, man, this is perfect. And sure enough, man, I just when when he took, when he picked up that male, I was like, man, if that thing produces with that female, I'm probably gonna need one of those.

Um, but the thing is that, >> dude, >> the thing is that they they don't necessarily translate to anything crazy as adults based on the look. The only consistency that I have seen is that if they have a bolder black pattern as a neonate, they're much more likely to maintain that kind of black dorsal edging as adults. Beyond that, it's all wild card.

[ __ ] >> I don't know though, man. Look at these black dots, bro. Like I have high melanistic beaks that have these dots in a sense that are black, and I don't think I don't think those leave. Those are there to stay, I think. >> No, not all that lateral stuff is all will all go away in the change, and then the only thing that will stay initially will be black just along the dorsal diamonds.

Um, >> you can't say for sure either though, right? You can't say for sure. Your dis for sure. But >> yes, based on my experience and me obsessing over how Bo's changed for the last, like, I don't know, 13 years, and looking at like 10,000 photographs, um, that, you know, you just there's these extreme traits that we see in the imports. They just don't. This this applies to virtually every type of green tree python. The extreme traits that we see in the wild ones just don't translate well first generation to captive bred. Doesn't mean that they can't be like worked on, like high white and Aus or whatever there. It doesn't mean that we can't like refine it with a few generations.

Um, but the problem is that like there's very, very few locality projects that have ever been refined for multiple generations. People always focus on, you know, we've got decades of designer stuff that are muts. Um, but uh, you know, as far as like trying to refine pure locality stuff for specific traits, nobody has ever really done that for multiple generations. Um, and the there are some bloodlines that claim to be that, but if you dig really deep, you'll find that they were diluted with something else somewhere along the way. There I there's like a number of European bloodlines that are called Sauron that like anybody who has any level of experience with it can tell you that you can just look at the animal as an adult and say that there's no way that's a pure Sauron, but if you dig and look through the history of it, it's like really, really obvious.

So >> yeah. Well, I mean, I don't know. Let's kind of get back to, you know, Ryan, you know, I I I wanted to ask you first and foremost, these coming in whenever I feel like when you were paying attention, you know, majority red or yellow neos, um, and why do you think one or the other would be coming in more or or what what's your take on the whole like, you know, red bak yellow neon neonates coming in from the from where they were coming from and whatnot?

Um, I mean, I would think probably Bio was the most consistent import with red babies for when I first got into it. It was rare to see a pulker red when I first got into it. >> And it was pretty rare to see uh utteris red when I got into it. >> Um, and but you could consistently, you always got bio reds. >> Um, probably at about a 50/50 clip.

Yep. I agree with that completely. >> And then price-wise, like when they were 50/50, was it always they were they label I'm sorry, were they priced the same or were they kind of one being hyped up over the other? Even back then, >> it was like 125 for a yellow, 175 for a red. >> Wow. So, reds have always been more expensive. >> Yeah. >> Hence the more superior. Wow. What do you know? That is crazy to me. I love it.

Um, but yeah. Okay. So, you know, with that being said, where where do you feel like things went as far as, you know, the amount of yellow neonates being produced compared to reds? I mean, were you paying attention to what you wanted the most back then? Did it even matter, uh, red or yellow? Like, what what were the things you were after, Ryan, when it comes to the the neonate coloring?

Um, well, I first I have to state unlike uh you two, Azeria is my least favorite uh species. >> Thanks for mentioning that. You didn't have to. >> The uh I've only actually bred Azura twice. Um, yeah, twice. Um, and the first time I bred Azura, I had a pair with the black triangles, and that I that phenotype interests me enough for me to get them. >> Yeah. And so the first clutch I ever had was those. Um, and then I sold everything and that was it. The uh, and then I didn't have a Zura for a long I end up I did I think I got I did get one from Ed Bradley one time. >> I needed I needed a male um, for a female that I had, but I think I sold him before I ever bred him. And then it wasn't until a few years ago I decided I should probably get a Zura again. And I since I have an affinity for the white um, I looked for the quote unquote number four phenotype animals.

Um, interestingly, the I I did breed them a few years ago. Uh, what is it, three years now? 2023, I think. And I've kept all their babies, and they've all pretty consistently turned out like the parents. There's not a lot of variation. One of the reds, you basically can't tell was a red now. One of the reds is actually higher white than the other one, but looks more classic bio. The rest of them are all pretty much just solid green snakes with some white speckles. So, that phenotype bred to, you know, itself seems to be in my one clutch experience, relatively consistent.

>> And Pat, did you even debate yellow to reds at a point in your keeping career? Like, what was it always one or the other from the beginning, or what was it like? In in general, or with Box? >> We'll move to Box, you know. >> Uh, with Bio, I've never really been super interested in the yellows with the exception of um, some of the Ed Bradley stuff that Ed had and Rico had were some of the best high yellow bios that we've seen um >> were were from yellow babies. >> Um, and I see the odd one on occasion that was yellow. um that interests me, but also um the like arguably the coolest animal in my whole [ __ ] collection, which is a fairly bold statement. Um, especially considering that I have like >> 30 favorites and but I mean, just even for myself, I probably have like three dozen animals that are like my favorite snake or whatever. >> This might be the first time publicly you're saying this. This might be for like the first time ever you're stating this publicly. >> Maybe. >> Yeah, that snake right there was a yellow baby. >> Yeah. >> And again, changed into this due to hormonal situations. Correct. >> Yes. Yes. But also um, take away the hormonal, consider the age of that animal. I don't know how old she is, but I'm based on the bios that I've kept, I don't think there's any way that snake is younger than 15 years old. Um, and and could potentially be older than that. She is, I can just tell when a snake is old. And she's beat up and scarred up and all kinds of stuff. >> Yeah. >> So, she's well well beyond losing yellow pigment. Like, they they can lose yellow until they're six or seven years old. >> Um, she looks like she was eating large rats, bro. She looks huge. >> Uh, yeah, whoever had that was the day I got her, and she was super chunky, and I barely fed her for about two years. Um >> and got her into much better condition than that. Um, and her blue darkened up a whole lot. I mean, I sent you probably two or three more pictures of her, but um, she is uh um, she was a yellow baby, and if you take away her hormonal color that gives her that dramatic, you know, she's hormonally an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an 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Um, listen, shout out to William. He has a, he had a, a super chat. I don't want to, uh, skip it, but, uh, his, uh, [ __ ] ChatGPT question here is, are Morelia zura a recent divergence within northern Morelia, or a case of rapid insular EV evolution after isolation on Bak Island? And if so, what selective pressures, uh, founder effects, prey, founder effects, prey, habitat, predator release, drove that divergence? Wow, dude. That's a great question, and I don't think, I don't think either of us can answer that question other than, >> I'm telling you, that's not, that's not ChatGPT right there. Like, what the [ __ ] That's next level. But William's smart, so it's like, maybe it's not. I don't know. It's >> definitely next level. But go ahead, take a stab at it. Any one of you. I'm out.

I think the first, um, I think the first thing that he said in there about rapid insular evolution after isolation on the island is probably accurate, but beyond that, I couldn't, I don't think anyone can answer answer those questions because I >> Yeah, there's no, there's no timeline. Aurora is a relatively new speciation event. More than likely, it happened, you know, 60 to 20,000 years ago when Bio was not far off the coast of Yapen. More than likely, because Yapen is a, is not an oceanic island. So during glacial maximum, Yapen is part of the mainland. >> And all the biometric maps I've looked at show Bio as a deep oceanic island. So it's always separated from the mainland. Padido, Numfor, and Bio are probably one giant island during glacial maximum periods. >> And more than likely the seed stock would have come off Yapen in some kind of a storm event. Um, >> and >> you know, how many snakes got there, whether snakes still make the passage, you know, it's that's just an unfathomable question to answer. But more than likely, the, you know, they, the closest they would have been to the mainland would have been during the glacial maxim.

>> I, I just want the record to reflect. I saw that question a long time ago. I was just like, how the [ __ ] I kept reading it to make sure I was reading it right, first and foremost. >> I saw it, too. >> I was like, when we were gonna address it, >> I was like, dude, can I have like an audio like a like can Alexa say this for me because I don't know what the [ __ ] Anyway, u this this plays, this plays really well into what we were talking about about what's different on the island though because, um, when we're talking about their demeanor and their color. So there was a theory that I had that was shared by other people years ago that suggested that Box, um, yellow dappled coloration during the change, um, and the longer duration of the change could possibly be attributed to a lower density of foliage and therefore more sundappling coming through. So, it was a, a camouflage thing and it was beneficial for them to be, to have that appearance until they were really big, um, to avoid predators, and that also made sense that they would be a more nervous and defensive animal if the, the foliage was less dense. The problem with that is that the guys that I've talked to that have [ __ ] around on Bo say that it looks like every other place that there's contro. So, I, I'm not really sure if those guys just have only been to a couple of spots or, um, you know, I, I'm not really sure if any of that is even remotely accurate.

>> Yeah, it would be, it would be more likely that the, if the color change meant anything, that they just hunt in daytime more than the other species. That would >> Yeah, >> cuz the the anttogenetic change is tied to when they switch from a lizard prey to a mammal prey and they hunt from daytime to nighttime. >> That seems to be the, the timing of that switch. >> Um, so maybe bios hunt during the day more than the other species >> and thus it's advantageous to keep the >> the color that does better for daytime activity. >> Yeah, I mean, all my be early morning feeders for sure this year. I've, um, interestingly had, uh, um, better success at night with my Box, but it's because of the type of defensive response that I got at night was different than what I got in the morning. And so the tea feeding was easier for the style that I was using with them. But it also, um, I've changed some of my techniques since I last hatched Vio. So next time I do it, it'll be interesting to try them out as morning feeders. And it would also be interesting to know if that's the case, whether that meant that they were staying on, um, reptile prey longer, or if maybe there's a mammal, um, that is on that island that is active that's dal, um, that would, you know, that's like a, a intermediate prey item between the, the rats that they eat as adults and the, the lizards that they eat as neonates. It'd be really cool to, to see if that's, uh, that's the case. Um, and one, one quick little comment on their demeanor. Um, bocks, everybody says bocks are mean or nasty or whatever. And I do have a couple that are nasty. And over the years, I've had some that were just genuinely nasty snakes, but not at like a significantly higher percentage than like much of anything else. My nastiest bios, I've always been able to put my hands on them if I wanted to. It's just some of them took a lot more time and caution to get them out of the enclosure and into my hands. And I don't just play with my snakes. I don't have time for it. But I can handle every single boak that I have now and every one that I've ever had. And, um, they're not mean. They're a very nervous locality. I've got three captive bred siblings that are seven years old. They'll be eight years old. in April. And not one of those snakes has ever, and one of them I raised from four months old, and the other two I got when they were three years old. They'll be eight next next April. Not one of those snakes has ever slowed showed the slightest inclination towards being defensive towards >> Well, captive bred. That's kind of the, that's why that's why we preach captive bred because you're going to get that experience for the most part. >> Yeah. But then I also have ones that I've produced that are that are very defensive snakes, you know. So they're not all like that. But >> they are all just nervous and flighty. And if you >> get to have them out during the day and you approach them with caution and don't spook them right off the bat, they calm down very quickly, just like any other snake. Like they're not, their bios are not all out of control defensive. And some of the calmest condos I've ever had were bo, and and I think they get the bad rap because they're so commonly imported and so everybody's just seeing hundreds of of scared, nervous wild-caught bo that are all going to tag you if you [ __ ] around.

>> Yeah. But again, could this also lead to this them being the more common locality that's being kept? That's why like the more >> the more people who are seeing these as their first time conjo are getting lit up by. But like you said, it could be an aru, it could be a, it doesn't matter. Like any, you're capable of getting lit up by any import or any snake at any time. And, um, but again, it's all, I think the rap sheet that is, uh, that they get is due to them being so, uh, you know, available, you know what I mean? >> Yeah. Yeah. I agree. Um, but yeah, Ryan, what do you think? You know, when it comes to, you know, wrapping >> My experience, I mean, I don't, I have not kept as many as Patrick. I've probably only kept, I don't know, probably, not counting babies I've produced, it's less than 20. And I can think of one that was relatively easy to work with. And the rest of them, I mean, I developed a truce with them. They wouldn't attack me when I would clean the cage and stuff like that, but they sure as hell did not like interacting with me in any manner other than allowing me, you know, to grace their presence while I clean the cage.

>> That's why I love them, though. Like, I respect they want to be left the [ __ ] alone. You know what I mean? >> The babies I have now, they're very, They're still very defensive at three years old. >> Really? >> They just, Yeah, they >> they love to eat. >> They don't, uh, There's a couple that are not bad. Ryan. Ryan, that's because those babies didn't get their first meal till they were two months. >> Oh, that's not true. They were not two months old. Maybe a couple of them were. >> Did you keep, Did you keep all of them? >> Yeah. >> No, I'm just kidding. That'll be >> Send me some pictures of some of some of them when you get a chance. I'd love to see what they're turning out like. Yeah, they're, you know, like I said earlier, they're just pretty much kind of that, uh, you know, lighter, dingier, I don't know, olivey green with a little bit of yellow still. I think one of, one of the red ones looks more classic bio, you know, if there is such a thing. Um, >> True. >> And then, uh, they've got, they don't have as much white as their parents, but they, you know, they did get some, so we'll see. Hopefully the, uh, the F2s will it'll blow out.

>> Well, um, listen, one of the topics we need to get to to, uh, almost get to the wrap-up part of tonight, you know, temperatures and whatnot. You know, you know, demographically, like what kind of temps are these guys dealing with compared to maybe some other subspecies or species of condro? Um, you did send me something, Patrick. Um, I don't know which one we should look at first. Um, but I mean, let's bring up this one. You know, you kind of explain the, uh, the forecast here. what you sent me where it's coming from. Good. Go ahead. >> Yeah. So, that was just like the, you know, the 10-day forecast if you just Google it, and then the other ones were annual charts. And so what I want to express about Box specifically, um, with the, the annual temperatures and rainfall, and this you can apply this somewhat broadly to tropical species, but there is a lot of variability, um, like once you get a little further away from the equator, but island is like on the [ __ ] equator. Okay. So like literally, it's on the equator. So when, um, the, when we talk about like cycling and and whatnot, the, there is virtually zero temperature variation or, uh, daylight length variation throughout the year. I don't ever understand people that light cycle condro. The, the only merit I can see to light cycling is maybe there's less sunlight during the rain season because of cloud cover. >> Yeah. Yeah, but the, the amount of the, the variability of of, um, sunset and sunrise on Bak Island is 12 minutes. Like, that's the longest differential on the island is 12 minutes. It is sunrise at 6:00 a.m. and sunset at 6 PM every [ __ ] day all year. The high temperatures are almost always 86, 87, 88. I think record highs are like 93, but it's almost always 86, 87, 88. And the lows are almost always 76, 77. And there's a, you know, it can get a little cooler than that, but temperatures below 75 are rare. And and, you know, I don't know where on the island they're measuring these temperatures. And obviously, you have like >> Where did you, Where did you get this from? First and foremost, Patrick, where'd this come from? >> That's all just on, that's all on various stuff that you can Google. It's probably taken from an airport and it's probably full sun. The, the likelihood >> Taken from an airport. >> Yeah, condondras don't spend very, they spend very little time outside of the canopy. >> And it's, I can tell you from walking in the jungle, when you go from the sun to the canopy, it's a completely different world. Yeah. >> Like, you could be walking for 10 minutes in the sun and think you're about to die and it's horrible and life sucks, and you walk under the canopy and you're like, "Oh, I could do this all day. This is a completely different world." >> Wow. >> Yeah. And so the, um, there's two things about that. So like, if you look basically, like annually, the kind of average temperature is about 80, 81 degrees. And it's number one, during the day, it's probably closer to that temperature under the canopy pretty much all the time. Like condos are probably not generally exposed to temperatures that are in those, uh, the condos on this island in those like upper 80s ranges. But it also, based on some temperatures that I saw Dan taking when he was out walking around out there, it seems to me like the level of humidity and the low level of wind allows it to stay warm well into the evening. Um, I believe he was, you know, finding condro and it was still like 80, 82 degrees that night as well. And I, I just assume that like low wind and high humidity is kind of helping to keep those temperatures at at that, you know, at that ground level for a little bit longer. Um, but it's just my point is that it's very, very even throughout the entire year and and with rainfall, it rains two-thirds of the days of the year on that island. Like it, during the rainy season, it rains every day pretty much and and a whole lot, and then during the dry season, it rains like every other day, um, and less. It rains like, like in the morning, like two out of three days of the year throughout the whole year.

>> I can say from my personal experience that my aurora seem to be affected by my snake room cycling more than the other species. They, the, um, most my other males don't ever go off feed for the other three species. My aurora males, the second I touch the thermostat, every one of them acts like I, I acts like I slap their mother and they'll never eat again. And it's not until like, literally, I only, uh, in my adult room, I, I don't have, uh, I only have one aurora now, a numb four male, and it literally ate the first time in 3 months because I finally warmed the temperature above 78 degrees at, you know, at night, and now it's eating again, and it wouldn't, and there's no female aurora in there to even be interested in breeding. Now, there's females of his closely related other species, but it just, the second I touch the thermostat, it's like, "Oh, I'm done." And they seem to be, like I said, it's a limited experience. I haven't had a ton of them, but this, all the animals I've had that have acted like the cycling affected them the most, it was a Zura every time.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Um, so, you know, as far as that goes, I'm, I'm curious, Ryan, because you are obviously, you've been there. So the coldest it can get is a lot less than 76, 77, right? Like, you know, the, the drops that these condos mainly have late in the night going in the early morning, that's when it's the coldest, you would say? >> I mean, I would think right before sunset should be the, or right before sunrise should be the coldest. And it's not cold. Um, I think it was probably mid-70s, low 70s if I was lucky at night. >> Nothing. It depends on where. >> Yeah. And I wasn't, I wasn't on Bay, you know, but it, uh, Bio would even be more stable than, you know, I wasn't very far south of Bio, but it would have been >> There's, there's also, uh, up higher elevation localities or even sometimes down in in Australia. I believe that the, in the, with the Aussie populations, they can get down into the 40s at, not regularly or consistently, but can get into the 40s at night, and same with some of the higher elevation localities, but not on Bo. >> Yeah, not on Bio. Bios there, like there's not much elevation differences on those islands as far as I can tell. And it's >> it's the most stable, you know, of all the species as far as their temperatures. And they do, in my opinion and my limited experience, they do seem to be affected by temperature cycling more than the others in a, I guess you would say, a negative way. Um, now, kind of to wrap things up, Ryan, is there anything that you want to make sure we get, uh, discussed on tonight's episode before we kind of get into the end of tonight's, uh, chapter? >> Uh, no. I think, uh, you know, it's interesting that a 200-year or 150-year-old species has come back from, uh, obscurity and gets the do it, uh, you know, deserve for since 1874. >> About time, right, Ryan? >> Yep. >> We haven't gotten it all back. We need Condropython back, and then it'll >> Condro Python definitely needs to be back. My dis, my greatest disappointment in her pediculture is that it's, and it's not back. And it appears that the reason it's not back is pretty stupid, too. So, >> Who has, who has control of that? >> Uh, just whoever wants to write a paper. Um, there's for some reason, there seems to be a misconception that the original description for the genus Condro Python included a statement about there being no premaxillary teeth, and having just read the original description, there's not a mention of premaxillary teeth, and so that's an erroneous reason. The, uh, the Latin term for Condro equal is grain >> So the original description, yeah, the original description basically said, uh, similar to Morelia, but unlike Morelia, had grain-like scales on its entire head >> where Morelia snakes have, you know, some of them, there's bigger head plates. So the defining characteristics for Condro Python are completely valid >> and should be resurrected. >> I agree. >> All right, well, listen, uh, Patrick, is there something you want to wrap up with tonight? Anything that we haven't discussed that you feel think is important, uh, before we close out this chapter. >> Well, I already mentioned that, um, you know, and MJ, you got a serious taste of this last year, but, you know, Beyonce makes the best hybrids. >> Goddamn right. >> God damn right. >> I've also, uh, and it's, and it's simply because they're so variable and so dramatically different from all the other Condros that they make the best hybrids. Um, and, um, but also two other things I'll say really quick. Number one, um, I'm super bummed out that I did not produce Box last year or the year before, and it's because I don't know what the [ __ ] I was thinking, but I only tried one pairing. I don't know what made me think I was gonna try one of anything with condro and get it off. Um, but and both of the girls went, and they both 100% slugged out on me, and they were both big females, and I got like, like 25, 20, whatever, a bunch of slugs both times, and I was super bummed out about that. Um, and so I'm still working and I'm going to try more than, uh, than one. So hopefully I'll have the ox again this year because that, that's always exciting. And the, the, the last one would be kind of a wrap-up question for you. Um, so when is Fish gonna turn green? >> Oh, you sick bastard. Why would you go there? >> He's already turning green. I thought I saw pictures of him with some green. >> Oh, per scale. We're really, really going to go there. Listen. >> Hey, man. With a bio, it starts with one scale. >> No, but I know with Bax. >> You [ __ ] man. Brian set you up to do this. This is not cool. >> I have no idea what you're talking about. He totally did not just send me a a private message asking me to bring up >> end of day green in the conversation >> At the end of the day. Okay, we are betting off a percentage of green fish is going to be by 2027 trapfest, and it's, he said more than 50%. And I [ __ ] will double on that bet, and I promise you, like, yeah, you know what? Fish is going to get green. I'm not going to say green, he's going to be this stage forever. There might be some green, but it ain't going to be more than 50% of his body. I'll tell you that much. I, I just know it. And you know what? I think >> Super cool. >> Ryan, I thought you're my friend. You're not my friend. Okay. You're, you're, you're going to >> Hey, man. The people that love you the most tell you the truth whether you want to hear it or not. >> I can't even argue that. Chapter eight. Hey. Hey, [ __ ] them panels, right? I'm not, I'm not even gonna argue that, dude. I, I'm just gonna shut up. Listen, at the end of the day, I'm going to win a free Neo out of out of this, and it's going to come from Brian Fischer's [ __ ] pure BAK clutch. Maybe the one that just hatched out. It's very nice. Um, so it might be the one I get from there. But yeah, Patrick, some green per scale coming in for sure. Definitely. >> Brian said there was no, no, uh, no stipulation about how many eyes the contro had to have. >> Oh, [ __ ] that. No, dude. I'm picking one. Bro, you, you send me some Bob Clark [ __ ] I'm going to be pissed. [ __ ] you better. They better have both eyes, dude. Come on. By the way, Bob Clark's my boy. I'm not sure if that rumor is true that he sold a snake with no eyes, but anyways, I digress. Um, do you really want to close off with that? You could pivot, bro. Like, >> Well, one interesting thing is if Condro Python is resurrected, Azura will be changed back to Azurious. >> Yeah. Yep. Yeah. And I, and then then we have to figure out what do we have to do to get them like full species status and >> Just somebody else. There's nothing to do. You just have to, anybody who publishes anything can decide if they accept them at all. If they accept them as full species or subspecies, and I personally accept them all as full species. No doubt. So, um, do, do you think, do you think that Utara Enzes and Poulture are separate, full separate species? >> Yeah. >> Okay. Um, with with the Box, this is something I thought you were going to bring up, and I don't, I can't remember if this is accurate or not, but is it true that the, um, they use the name aurious because they were looking at a preserved specimen and the preserved ones turned blue after their >> Um, that was a theory, but doing my research, the guy that, uh, Adolf Bernhard Meyer, who described Aura, he would have gotten those alive >> on his trip in 187. 71. So he saw them in life. >> Um, so the specimens he got, Azura is Latin for blue. >> So he, uh, they must have had, you know, at least one >> on them or something. I just thought that was a much more suitable name for northern man. Well, and you know, the weird thing is, is, um, everybody kind of says that the reason they synonymized or Bullinger synonymized Virus and, uh, Azura back in the day was they presumed that he didn't know that the, the other had been made a species because there's no mention of Veritus in his paper. >> Um, but I don't know if I agree with that. I, I think he might have known Veritus existed. Um, even though Veritus was described just two years earlier. Um, I think he knew because he cited Schlegel's work in other papers. And so I think he knew, you know, because if not, if he didn't know Virus existed, he would have just named them Virus too, because obviously they're green, you know, mostly green snakes. So I half wonder if he knew, and, you know, made him, but we'll, we'll never know. The, the paper doesn't say, you know, they were compared to >> Veritus and found to be different, but Bolinger just decided in, you know, the late 1893 that they were all the same thing, and and nobody gave a reason. But later papers, the reason was they just, they assumed he didn't know Veritus had been described at all.

>> Hey, there's a question in the chats I think is interesting because I heard this on an episode. I can't remember because I know Kofi is kind of like in the air when it comes to this. Um, or maybe not >> Their pure >> For sure. >> It's not, it's no doubt they don't. Yeah. >> And is that recently found out or is that always the case? Like, well, why would there be speculation on that? >> There's no speculation. As soon as you see one turn green, it's obvious that it's a pure. They're, it looks just like a sauron. >> Yep. Yeah. I don't think anybody, they, Yeah. They got the, they're, Yeah. No, they don't deserve to be separate.

>> Well, guys, um, I appreciate your guys' time. I mean, can we officially say we disclosed everything that should be talked about Melia Zuro Zura, or did I say that right? >> We may have to roll it back around. You know, I can talk about for another three [ __ ] hours. >> Oh, that's true. Do you deserve? Do you saying that just chapter one needs to be continued? >> Possibly. So, yeah. So, this is what we're going to do then. Well, then any, any more likely, every chapter will need to have a continued. So, we'll circle back around as we're going down the list of species. >> Yeah. >> You cool with that? >> Hell yeah. >> So, are we actually doing Veritus next? Even though it's the >> Yes, Ryan. I'm, You're the, [ __ ] You're the king of the. I'm gonna ask everything. I won't, I won't again. I thought I was starting with the first one, but mind you, I was thinking Bak was just because it's always number one in my head. So, I was like, "Okay, we're starting with Bak, right?" But >> That's under, I figured it was going to be Bak considering the two of you are part of it. >> He told me we were going to do Beerus first. That's what >> Yeah, that's what I, That's what I suggested, and then he put out the artwork, and I was like, "What happened?" >> Oops. >> I, I had done all my Veritus homework over the last couple weeks, and then he hit me with a Zuri, and I was like, "Oh [ __ ] I gotta get to work." >> I'm one of those guys where like the pop quiz isn't what you think it is. You know what I mean? >> It's funny because I like, I get like, um, you know, like impostor syndrome when we're when we're doing like specific subject stuff. I'm like the Bach guy or whatever, and I'm like, "Oh my god, I got to start [ __ ] doing some research if I'm going to talk about Box." Like, I can't just sit here and ramble about Bios endlessly. But, um, it'll be a nice flip-flop because Aurora, I mean, um, Veritus are my least favorite of the green tree pythons. But to be fair, when Ryan and I say these things, that, uh, Azuri is his least favorite and Verus is my least favorite, we still absolutely adore every single type of that there is. Yeah. Yeah. Of course. >> It's just that they're my, We're not saying we don't like them. >> The ones that are close to our heart, you know what I mean? We, you know, that's all that is. >> Um, and, uh, and I, but I'll give a little preview for the Veritus episode that, um, I had never kept Maro before until a little over a year ago, and I've totally fallen in love with those snakes, man. They're so [ __ ] cool. We, we'll talk about that next time. >> Yeah. People are requesting to do Poulture next. Hey, talk to Ryan, pal. I have no control over this. >> Poulture's third. >> There you go. Third. >> Overruled. Even I get overruled on this sometimes. Um, but no, I mean, listen, I'm looking forward to this. This is going to be going down, uh, first week of every month. So, February 5th will be our next episode on Veritis. Okay, guys. It's official. And now I know going to make the thumbnails. I'll make sure. And, uh, you guys are >> It is going to get more complicated though because bioch basically, you know, has one locality in essence, but aroo or h the south kind of has three things >> Or even four if we get into the PNG stuff or or maybe >> That's the same, that's the same snake all across the board. >> Man, I, I'm gonna >> They change a little bit on the bird's tail. Just a titch, but not much. >> Yeah. Well, yeah, but the, it seems like, um, the all the way across on the PNG side with the, but the, um, the most extreme, most eastern most and westernmost looks, um, for the, the mainland beer seem to be a little bit different. Like you >> Yeah, we'll discuss that. There's reasons why that probably is, but we'll discuss that. I agree though that we may have to further break those down for subsequent episodes where we do just an Australian Veritus episode or, you know, just an AU episode. Same thing with Pter, like we have to do a separate Kofi episode. >> Yeah. >> Like, just talk about just only bundle [ __ ] Kofi up with Sora or whatever. That wouldn't be fair. >> I mean, we'll run this [ __ ] series all year long into next year. I don't care. You. Let's, let's do it. All right. Because listen, people are here to have fun and they're learning from it. So, uh, Patrick, why don't you go ahead and drop where people can follow you, hit you up before we leave. >> Uh, I am, um, I, I'm Patrick Holmes on Facebook, but you'll probably end up in, uh, Facebook friend request purgatory if you hit me up there. Um, I am Arboreal_obbsession on, um, Instagram and Facebook, but I'm not super active on the Facebook page. And I'm also GT as in green tree gtpatrick.tx as in Texas. gtpatrick.tx on Instagram as well. >> Well, beautiful. Uh, thank you so much for your time, Patrick. Um, before we let you go, Ryan, go ahead and drop your plugs, bro. Where can people hit you up? >> I'm easy to find. Ryan Young on Facebook, Molecular Reptile on Facebook, Molecular Reptile on Insta. But you can look up molecularly.com. Easy peasy. >> There you go. Uh, find all the links to both their social media plugs in the description below. Hit them up or just see him here next time. But give it up. It's a WRAP FOR PATRICK HOLMES and Ryan Young, ladies and gentlemen. [ __ ] legends. Hey, thank you, boys. Great first chapter in the books. I appreciate you. All right. >> Thank you. >> Have a good night. Later, Ryan. >> Take care. >> Peace. Woo! Man, so much knowledge. This is the kind of [ __ ] I like rehearing for sure. Uh, probably not when I talk. But listen, I got to tell you, thank you so much for all, uh, the viewers of tonight's episode. If this was your first time watching, if you're not already, hit that subscribe button, hit that like button. Just by doing those things, it helps push this channel out even further. Uh, and we're doing really big things over here in this network. So, we really mean, really means a lot by just subscribing. Okay? And again, if you want to be notified, if you want notifications, because I'm hearing how some people want to get notifications, well, hit that notification bell, select all, and you'll be reminded every single episode. All right? And again, thank you for everyone in the chats. You guys are awesome. Appreciate the participation. And again, mark your calendars. February 5th, we're going to be doing this the first week of every month. We'll continue new chapter. All right? And then those chapters will be revisited. So, we'll do like part two for chapters, and the chapters will just keep going. All right? Having a good time. I'm loving this. Drop a comment in the comment section. Let me know what you like best. And of course, check out my Patreon. First link in description below if you want to get more behind the scenes. But what a chapter. What an episode. What a night. And again, Reptile Super Show. Don't forget, one of the best shows you can attend if you're in SoCal area. Make sure you check it out and make sure you find all my links to my sponsors in the description below. Sorry for the interruption, folks, but a quick word from our sponsors. The Reptile Super Show, the coolest reptile super show in the world, is happening January 10th and 11th, Mona Fairgrounds. I highly recommend you go to this show, especially if you're just coming into the reptile hobby. The most diverse show you could ever attend. Over 400 vendors, thousands of new people attend this show every year. 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