Transcription
Welcome everyone to Financial Sense webinar. We're talking today about virtual accounting, and I'm here with Nyle Carter Gray. Nile, how's it going?
I'm great. Hi Blake Oliver and the Financial Sense team. Thank you so much for inviting me. Uh, as you know, this is one of my favorite topics too, so I'm excited about today.
I couldn't wait. So great to talk to you. I am Blake Oliver, CPA. I'm your host for this webinar series. Financial Sense recently surveyed accounting and bookkeeping firms for the 2023 State of Accounting Workflow Automation report, and 53% of respondents identified themselves as virtual firm owners. By the way, you can get the report via the link in the chat. There's a lot of useful information in there, so do grab that. We'll drop that in the chat.
There was a time when virtual accounting wasn't really a thing. I remember that. You remember that, Nile? Data security and the compliance nature of the job made on-site work the norm. But with the pandemic in 2020, a lot of things changed, and fully virtual accounting firms are becoming more of the norm than traditional brick-and-mortar firms.
It's actually, no, that's a good question. What do you think the balance is right now? If you had to say anecdotally, how many firms are brick-and-mortar, how many firms are virtual, how many are in this hybrid state?
I still feel like it's like 50/50. So you have your, you know, I feel like that more on the tax professional side, if they're strictly doing taxes primarily, then they lean heavy on the brick-and-mortar side. Versus, you know, the accounting professionals who are embracing advisory in addition to those compliance services, they are more of our hybrids, our virtual offices. So I still feel like it's, it's kind of 50/50 there.
Yeah, I, I saw a report recently of professional services in general, and I was surprised, well, maybe I wasn't, but the number was actually pretty low for the fully virtual firms. It was like 10, 11% of entire, you know, this is across the whole country of professional firms are fully virtual. Then there's this huge group in the middle that's in this sort of hybrid state, and then you've got the, you know, minority that are still fully in the office every single day. But there's been all this talk recently about how so many firms that were hybrid are now pulling their people back into the office, and that's creating a lot of discontent. And, you know, I'm actually curious, if you're attending live, if you're joining us live today, what is the situation in your firm? Are you getting pulled back into the office? Are you staying hybrid? Are you fully virtual? Do you have opinions on this? Because we want to hear you on that.
Um, I myself, you know, have a very strong opinion. I love virtual. I had a virtual firm starting 10 years ago.
So let's talk about that now. In your opinion, why would an accounting firm want to consider going virtual or at least hybrid?
Virtual, to me, is always the way to go. Um, and a lot of the reason was the freedom and flexibility of it. It is, you know, it gives you an opportunity to really work on your terms. So like, you know, I've had traditional accounting roles where I had to be sitting at my desk at 8 AM, but 8 AM is not my peak productivity time. So I'm like a zombie from eight to ten. And 5 PM, when it's time for me to clock out and leave, I'm like ready to do a bunch of work. So I knew when I started my firm that I had to figure out a way to be able to manage how I worked on my own terms and not be chained to the desk. So, you know, when we started the firm, when I started the firm back in '08, um, full-time, I did have an office space, but we were paperless from the start. So people would drop their documents off, we would scan them and send them on their way. Um, I was hosting QuickBooks Desktop because I was just like, I cannot be chained to this desk. That is just not the life I wanted for myself. So now, if anybody is questioning why they should do this, it's really looking at, you know, when am I most productive? Do I really have to be sitting in this particular location to get things done? How can I expand my reach? And those are really like three key things for me.
And expanding your reach in terms of, I mean, we're not just talking about clients, we're talking about employees. Maybe employees are the most important thing, right? Because if you're a virtual firm, you can hire from anywhere in the country, whereas if you're requiring employees to come into the office, it's like your city and the surrounding area, and that's kind of it, right?
Yes. And so like my team, we have, uh, a team member in Jamaica, a team member in Texas, and one that's local. So we, we do have a mix of, you know, virtual as well as in-person. Uh, my team does have the option if they want to to work from home. The local, uh, team member, I should say, so she has that option, but she's like me. We like a little structure. We come into the office and plug away, and then go home. And if I need to, I can plug away on the couch.
So you have an office. You're in your office right now. It looks very cozy. You've done a great job making it feel like a home. Would you consider what you're doing to be fully virtual or is it hybrid?
So we have an office space, but we don't see clients here. So I'm a virtual office who's running an external space, that's what I like to say. And the reason being is because, you know, I like, I'm a structured girl, so I like being able to come in, do work, and then when I want to leave, and then I can leave it all here. Plus, this office gives me the ability to build a nice, cute space that I don't have to share with anybody in the house or them complaining about my big picture back here. Like, I don't want to see that. So I'm like, it's my office. I could put whatever I want in here. Um, like I have a, a recliner over in this corner, so whenever I want to take a nap, I can. I got a little table with two chairs over in the other side, so, you know, I sit over there, eat lunch, and watch TV.
So what do you think are the biggest differences between a firm like yours and a brick-and-mortar firm? You said you don't see clients at the office. Is that the biggest difference, or is there more?
So really, the, for me, is that that, that's probably the, the biggest difference is really seeing clients in the office. Some of my clients know we are here and they may drop documents off, but nobody is required to be sitting there or setting the appointment where we have to open the door. Um, because what that means is like, I can take off on a, on a weekday and not be here, and if I want to come in on a weekend and work quietly, we still have traditional hours. We operate by email, we use client portals. But with a brick-and-mortar, you have set number of hours. Somebody has always got to be there. Um, there's just this expectation that you have to be available when somebody says you have to be available because if they make an appointment, you got to be there.
We got a lot of chatter going on on LinkedIn. Lawrence says, "Fully virtual for us." Benjamin, "Fully virtual." Heather, "Virtual." Stacy, "Fully virtual for our firm and amongst most of our clients, primarily SAS." Another user who's anonymous, "Virtual and no plans to change that." Virtual. Wow. A lot of folks who are virtual. Virtual works.
Yeah, it's, I mean, it's crazy how the pandemic just changed things overnight. I mean, that's the joke, right? Is for years and years, we were saying, "You can do it," and then the managing partners were like, "No, no, you can't really do it." And then overnight, we did it. And I think the thing that that really set CPA firms up, anyway, just speaking from the CPA perspective, for this is audit. Right? Audit, you're on-site at the client, and you're in the office. You have to be mobile. There's no reason you can't do it anywhere. And, and so, like, it was kind of just natural.
Tyler said, "We transitioned to hybrid prior to COVID. So we downsized on office space and therefore no assigned seating and minimum space in between desks. What this did was make working in the office less productive, one because of the noise level, and two, seeing people you haven't seen in a while allows for time spent catching up. I definitely get more work done at home now."
Oh yeah, that's something to think about, right? Is the distractions of the office?
Yeah. So for me, the distractions are home. Because what I realized is I'm home, and in my mind, I'm like, "Oh, I can just throw this load of laundry in the washing machine," or "I can play with the dog," or, you know, my husband or my son will come in and start interrupting me. And I, you know, I have to remind them. I'm like, "On a call, like, you gotta put the sign on the door, 'Do Not Disturb.'" Um, and, and then for me, like the time that I was working, just, it was non-stop. I would wake up, just walk in the office, start working, and then I would come out and have to say, "Did I brush my teeth today?" Because it would just be non-stop. So for me, having the physical office allows me to, you know, take a shower, put on some pretty clothes, go into the office, and then leave when it's time to leave. But I still have a fully functional office at home with the same setup, two 24-inch monitors, you know, my laptop with a docking station, so I can totally, uh, work like a chain from home. But I easily get distracted with stuff in the house, and I don't like that.
And this is a really important takeaway. Just in the first 10 minutes, we've identified something that I think is a misconception of virtual firms, which is this idea that if you are virtual, you don't have an office. You can be totally virtual and have an office. It just means that people aren't required to be there at specific times, right?
That to me is, I think, how I would define virtual. It's anywhere, maybe not any time.
Right now, because you said you still have defined work hours?
Yes, because, you know, one of the things about being virtual is that you still have to set boundaries with clients because people hear virtual and they automatically assume you're available 24/7. Just because of how our lifestyles have changed, we can order things and know that it's going to be delivered the next day. So when we say to our clients, "We are a virtual office," what they hear is, "Oh, I can contact you by phone, telephone, text, email, and you're going to respond immediately." Um, so we, we do have a strict communication policy. Our hours are these, and these, you're going to contact us, but at this time, and if you, you contact us after those hours, you will not get a response typically until, you know, within 48 hours is what we tell our people. So, you know, like I had a client, I just so happened to be up at midnight working on tax returns. I'll never do that again. People, never. And I emailed him, and I didn't hit the schedule button, and he responded right away, and he's in California, three hours behind me. So he thought that was the norm. From that point on, he would email 8, 9, 10, 11, midnight, 4 AM. I was like, "Absolutely not. We were not doing this anymore."
Okay, so, so schedule your emails so that they go out during your working hours. That sets a good expectation. A, a critical error that I have made in my past and still suffer from is giving out my cell phone number. Don't allow clients to do that. And I was given a big thumbs down there. Nope. We have a one-way text number. So we can text them. We, and they have to opt into it. We can send them a text status, but we will not reply. Absolutely not.
We've got Randy Crabtree. Go ahead. Facebook messages.
Facebook messages. Oh yeah. Facebook is for your friends. You know, and they put crazy stuff in these messages, children's Social Security numbers, credit card information. I'm like, "Are you an idiot? Like, is Facebook private?" Remember when everyone was taking all those quizzes on Facebook that were asking for all your personal information, like, "What's your mother's maiden name?" It's going to create your, you know, I don't know, your, your stripper name.
Yeah, your stripper name, right, right. Yeah. And your first pet's name. Yeah, exactly. Don't do those quizzes. Hopefully, everyone's learned their lesson. Um, we've got Randy Crabtree joining us. Randy, great to see you. Randy's the owner of, uh, Try Merit, uh, and a big tax credit firm in Chicago. He says, "Virtual. We have an office that no one is required to go to. We have people all over the country and really just gives us a spot to hang out when someone comes into town."
So it's not just for small firms, right? Big firms have gone virtual too. And I know they've, I don't know how many headcount, but it's, it's dozens, if not hundreds.
Yeah, right. Laura is fully virtual. Go ahead, Nile.
I was gonna say, one of the, the toughest challenges when you're managing a virtual firm, in a, you know, versus a brick-and-mortar, is there is, you have to go above and beyond to maintain that camaraderie. Um, and Randy probably knows this. You know, just coming into office is really nice when people can come in and say, "Hey, good morning." When you're virtual, you kind of, for social extroverts, extroverts, you kind of miss out on that social aspect. So you have to really figure out a way to create it. Um, and I feel like that is probably the biggest challenge when it comes to having a virtual firm, is really kind of building that teamwork and that camaraderie when you are so spread apart, or, you know, in different countries, different time zones.
I would agree. The biggest objection, and I think the most legitimate objection to virtual, is culture. How do you build a strong culture in an accounting or bookkeeping firm when your people are all over the place? And, you know, I'm struggling with this right now. I'm an owner of a business. We are a virtual business. My employees are in California, Ohio, the Philippines, Pakistan. I am here in Arizona, and I have never met most of my employees. We make it work, though.
Don't you have any tips, Nile, for that? Like, how do you, how do you get that water cooler feeling? How do you get that, there's just a je ne sais quoi, right, of being in the office together? How do you get that in a virtual firm?
So I try to do a one-on-one with the team, uh, at least once a week, where we're just kind of kicking it, right? It's not a mandatory thing. It's just kind of like, "Hey, come hang out. We're, we're having lunch," and we can all just sit and have lunch and chat about what's going on. The kids will pop in, or a pet, a pet will come into view. Um, so that helps because then it gives the team the outlet to like, see somebody on Zoom or, or just talk about, you know, something that's going on that has absolutely nothing to do with work. In the event, uh, one of the other things we do, we have a book club now. So we're all reading the same book, um, and then at some point, we'll come together and talk about, you know, what's going on with the book and what do we think, and how can we implement some stuff.
Reading book club? That's a great idea. I gave my team all Kindle Paperwhites as a holiday gift. And so, you know, it makes it easy to send them the book that we're reading. The book is on the device that I sent you. You have no excuse not to read it. It's good.
What book are you reading?
So we were, uh, I finished. They're still reading. Disney You. Disney You? Oh, Disney University. Yeah. Oh, yeah. That's a, I know that from Ron Baker. He's a big fan of Disney University. I think he's attended it. I want to go. Now that I've read the book and learned so much about the behind-the-scenes of Disney, I'm like, "This is the kind of stuff I want to implement in my firm."
How, like, give me some more ideas. Like, it was very interesting hearing how Walt Disney would walk the park and just imagine what it would look like from the child's perspective because he, in his mind, the child was the client, not necessarily the parents, even though the parents are paying all the money. But he knows that the parents would take the children's lead. So if the children are happy, they're like, "Okay, this was money well spent." So that's how we're trying to build the firm now with that kind of mindset. Who's the client? How can we give them these wild moments? How can we, you know, make them feel like this was made for us?
That's great. Yeah, I want to talk more about customer experience later. First, I want to say thanks to Rich for commenting here in the webinar. If you're here in the webinar, you're welcome to chat as well. LinkedIn is really blown up right now. But hey, we've got a bunch of you here. Chat with us. Ask questions. Rich says, "I have a brick-and-mortar firm and I find an old-fashioned face-to-face meeting can do wonders for both the client and referrals. I am also focused during work hours and then go home and forget about the place." I think that is also important, right? During tax time, when you're working long hours, admittedly, right, it can be nice to just have a way to disconnect and not have to do work at home. But now, let's, let's address both, both of those. What about those face-to-face client meetings?
Like, how do you?
No, we stopped the Facebook because what I found is clients, one, I would make mistakes while they were there. If I was trying to do the tax return while they were sitting in front of me, I would always review it after they left, and there was always a mistake. So I was like, "I can't keep doing this." Because I'm, I know I'm social, they want to talk to me, so we're just going to spend the time talking. So what I would do instead, we changed that appointment from a tax prep appointment to a tax document scanning appointment. It was a limited time, so it was 15 to 20 minutes. They would to catch me up on all the things while I scanned their documents, and then I would send them on their way. So that was one way to still get that, if you, if you're, if you want to do those in-person meetings, because I have absolutely no problem with people who still want to do them. That is one way to get that face time, but not lose productivity or sacrifice, you know, a correct tax return for the chit-chat.
The other way to do it, um, is we, I try to send out a video with the return to kind of go over what's happened, uh, the changes we may see are from year over year. That for clients has been like a welcome surprise because they're like, "Thanks for explaining that to us." And, and for me, I have my admin call, what I call my seasoned clients. So those are the older ones who aren't as tech-savvy, and they love talking to her. So it's really funny because if I call them, they'll see the number, and they will all automatically go, "Hey, Ray." And I'm like, "Nope, you got an IO this time." And they just laugh about it. They think it's the funniest thing ever, but that's because they talk to her now more than they do me.
Well, that's great. I mean, that's, that's a sign that you've delegated, which is, uh, something that I think a lot of us struggle with, right? We can't scale because we're having to do everything ourselves. I like the idea of the video a lot. I've heard that from various tax pros that you make a video walking through the tax return like you would in an in-person meeting, and you send the video link with the return. Can you describe more that? How does that work? What app are you using? Is it like a heavy lift to make these?
Nope, it's not a heavy lift. And everybody who's doing it now got it for me. It's like, I'm joking. I, I believe it. We're gonna give you credit now as the originator of the tax return delivery video, video review, right?
Yes. I'll put that on Wikipedia now.
It doesn't sound. Usually, the video is less than five minutes. I'm using Snagit to do those videos. If the video is going longer and I need to like drill in on a few things, I will do it in Camtasia because then I can kind of do some edits and call, call out some attention-grabbing things. Um, and then once we film, I film the video in Snagit, I will save it, uh, to their client portal. So it's not living on Loom or anybody's website. It is tucked in neatly with the, with the copy of the client's tax return. Because one thing about choosing a platform to host your videos, you gotta know where that data is living. And if we're looking at live Social Security numbers, I don't feel comfortable with that data being in anywhere other than behind a, I gotta log in and see something.
Yep, that's a really good point. I, I use Loom for a lot of videos with my team, which is fine when it's not PII, right? But when it's Social Security numbers, what is PII? Personally identifiable information. Um, if you're just sending out a link to a video, anybody can grab that link and see that in the future. And a lot of times, there's no expirations on these links, too. So, yeah, that's, that's really important to think about.
Yeah. Um, but, you know, it was one of those things we didn't really have to think about before COVID, but once COVID hit, cyber security crime went up 600%. So, you know, it's one of those things that's in the back of your mind. You kind of feel like, "Oh, this is harmless. I don't have to think about it." But then I saw a couple of people complaining on Twitter that Loom had lost their files, like the files just disappeared. And I'm like, "That data somewhere."
Yeah, no, it's, it's, it's something we always got to think about when we are using new technology, right? Is where is that data and how secure is that data? We have a question. Catherine said, "Nile, if a client, if clients don't have an expectation that your office is manned when you're in your office space working at whatever hour of the day or night, how do you deal with people that just drop by? The door's locked. Is there, is there even a sign on the door?"
We have a glass door. So I can see right through the door. So, um, if you come to the office and you yank on the door, you can't get in. There are people in the office. So, you know, I might pop my head out and see who it is. And if they're dropping something off, I will yell, "Throw it in the mail slot." Because you don't have a scheduled appointment, you don't get to see me. You don't get to just steal my time.
This is so funny because one of my clients actually, their office is right next door, and they like to drop by. And I have to tell them the same thing, like, "I'm unavailable. I have a work day. Gotta make an appointment."
Yep. Yeah, you got to be strict about it, right? You know, we gotta, we gotta set expectations. And I have family members who are clients. And like, I have, oh, those are the, those are the.
Yeah, go ahead. Sorry.
I have an uncle right now, I love him dearly, but he will not take the phone call from my admin. So she can tell him when to drop his documents off. So here we are, April, was it today? The sixth. And he's still like, whenever she calls, he won't answer the phone. I'm like, "Yeah, yeah."
Family is the hardest, right? If you can get family to follow your processes and procedures, you can pretty much handle anything. That's probably the best test case there. I have two family members left. I'm like, "I might have to refer you both out."
So Elizabeth asked, "Snagit or Loom?" And we did answer that. I just want to make sure everyone heard. Nile uses Snagit. Not Snagit or Camtasia. So I use those two interchangeably. Snagit is the easier of the two. So if the video is going to be short, I use Snagit. Camtasia is if the video is going to be longer. So if I feel like I need to really kind of zoom in and drill down on something, I'll use Camtasia just because of, I can edit it a little fancier there.
Yep. Yeah, I would say I've used both to the same company, same technology. I would say get started with Snagit. If you want to take it to the next level, then then get Camtasia. And Snagit is, I think, a lot less expensive as well.
It is. Plus, as someone told me, it's great for like screen grabs. Somebody described it as screen grabs on steroids. So it's like, you can build these guides. I'm just using, you know, snapshots of your screen. So I love Snagit. It is a, one of the tools that I use probably at least three or four times a week. It is, like, I don't know where my life would be without it.
So we've spent about half of our time talking about all the great things about virtual firms. But the title of this event is something about how they fail. Why do virtual accounting firms fail? Let's talk about that. Why do, why would a virtual firm fail? What factors or signs can you highlight in that regard?
Two main things: structure and processes, right? Um, just because your firm is virtual does not mean you shouldn't have structure and processes documented and mapped out that you can follow. Because I found that people who are virtual, they just, they're like, "I'm just going to get started," and you start your day off and you're like, "I don't even know what I'm doing today." And you can kind of get distracted. And then when it's time to build your team, you're like, "Oh, I hired this VA," and then I'm like, "Well, what is the VA doing?" I'm like, "I don't know." And that was like, I, I remember that. I was like, "I need some help. I don't know what kind of help I needed." So I hired a VA, and then she sat for a week with nothing to do because I hadn't fully developed what the process was to say, "Here, do this." And that was an, experiment, an expensive experiment on my part because I paid her basically to do nothing. So the first thing I always recommend to anyone who's operating virtually is to really go through and list out the process for every service you're offering. And I mean, every single part of the process, from how you're going to find the client to delivering the product or service, and then ending the relationship. It may seem silly, but this is a way for you to figure out what you're going to automate, delegate, or eliminate. And then to set those parameters about how you're going to work. Like, you know, I work from ten to six. You may want to work from, you know, five to five, but having that structured day kind of gives you the feeling that you're actually working because that's the hard part.
We can, we can work virtually and multitask all day. Yeah. If you're working virtually and you're mixing personal with work, it gets very squishy. And I struggle with this myself. I, I don't have an office that I go to. I just come up to this extra bedroom. And so, for me, it's really easy to, to just, it all blends together. And sometimes the day ends and I don't know what I did. So for me, um, I have to use task management, project management, practice management software in order to have a checklist of like, "Here's the top things I need to do today." And actually, Financial Sense is the sponsor of this event, and a great solution to look at if you do not have practice management software. If you're using spreadsheets or something, check out Financial Sense because their goal is to make it as easy as possible to set up practice management software, and you can build in those checklists.
Right. And it sounds crazy, even if you're working by yourself, a project management system will help organize you.
Yes. It's not just for the people working for you, right? It's for you. Your clients. I mean, I, I'm a, I'm actually sort of, I'm a musician who became a CPA in IO. So I, I'm like the kind of almost the wrong personality for it in many ways. And so if I don't have a practice management solution, I'll forget to run payroll. And I have to have like multiple alerts, you know, like, and because I have those systems, I don't miss it. But I'm not going to remember it, you know? I'm not one of those people. And then as you grow, you just can't rely on your brain to handle everything, right?
Exactly. But I mean, what you said is really important about the process because in an office, if I hire somebody and I don't have a process for them to follow, I can just walk into the office and figure it out with them that day, right? They're sitting there. I'm like, "Okay, what are we going to do today? Let's figure it out." You can just sort of do it on the fly. But when you're virtual, you can't do that. You gotta have a bunch of stuff for them to do day one, you know, "Here's your task. Here, work through these projects, right? Watch these videos, um, learn these tools, do these certifications." I think that's a great. You know, we did, we did that. Did that in my firm, and it was nice because when I hired somebody, we had like a week's worth of stuff for them to do just to train up, and it was all set in there. And so I wasn't spending a ton of time sitting on Zoom calls all day long, right? Which is that's the other option, right? Is you want to recreate the office, everybody's on a Zoom all day long, which is like really exhausting.
It is. I get that. The eye tiredness is like, "Oh, why am I so tired?" And then you realize that's because I've been staring at this camera for eight hours. The normal person is not meant for that. No. And it's weird because even when you're not looking at it, if you're just hanging out with somebody on Zoom, it still feels exhausting to be on camera all the time, right? Like, we can do it for an hour a day like this, and it's fun. But then, you know, the rest of the day, we're working, and we're like, "Okay, I don't have to have, I have to look perfect all the time." Even in an office, you don't feel that way because you have sort of a privacy that you don't have when there's a camera staring at you.
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Well, so with processes are important, right? Having that practice management software. How else can new virtual firm owners set themselves up for success? How can they avoid the pitfalls?
The pitfalls really, the one biggest thing is, uh, not to give out your cell phone number. Um, no, really. Once you really start getting your client base, helping them like reinforcing your communication policy and sticking to it. I'm a big fan of choosing, choosing a niche or the type of client you want to work with from the start. And I have to remind new business owners, this is your business. You get to set the terms. Um, your clients don't tell you how to operate your business. So that would be like me walking into Apple and saying, "Hey, I'm gonna pay you today, uh, with a check," and Apple laughing, going, "We don't accept checks. You better take this, uh, Apple Pay or credit card and get out of here." Um, so don't let your clients basically run over top of you by telling you how you're going to run your, your firm. It's like, you know, we were talking about the whole family thing. I have family that want to be clients. They have to abide by the rules of the firm. They have to now know that this is a business. It's not a little hobby. Like, you know, it might have been cute when I first started and they were just like, "Oh, I'm gonna help my little niece out." But now we have a team, and we have to maintain profitability. So you got to pay regular fees. You gotta, you know, drop off your documents at the, you know, follow the rules. Follow the rules.
It's tough, you know, to set down those rules and especially make family follow them. But, you know, we got it. We gotta do it. And it's tough when you're first starting out and you're just like, "I just need the money. I need to be able to pay my bills." And I get it, I promise you, I have been there. But it is easier to find a client that meets the parameters you're going to work with than it is to get rid of a client who is, you're undercharging. Because what they'll do is refer all their friends to you, and then you end up with more of them. Yeah. And then they drain your energy. And you, at the end of the day, you're trying to figure out, "Why am I so tired?" It's because you realize you dealt with five of the same type of client. You're like, "They're underpaying. They're over-communicating. They're not worth it." Just take a little time. You know, downsize your life if you need to. Nobody's going to judge you for that. Go get a part-time job if you need to. It's okay. Like, but I want you to run your business on your terms. Don't let anybody else define that for you.
Yeah, I'll agree with you 100%. Nile, I took on work when I was just starting out, and I bent my processes to the client, and I ended up not being able to grow with those clients. They didn't, I couldn't hand off the work because, great example, is like invoicing, right? I got into doing customized invoicing for clients. Yeah, you're laughing there. Yeah, right. I mean, once, once you get into that, unless you have a very like a dedicated person who's going to do that and you can define all that for the client, it's really hard to scale. As opposed to, "We only do bill pay, and we do it through this particular provider like Bill.com, and you have to use that, and that's the only way we do it," and that's scalable, right? Or we, yeah, we'll do payroll for you, but we're not going to use your, you know, unique payroll solution that's only like in your state. We're going to use this, you know, we're gonna use this processor that we use for all our clients. Um, that kind of thing.
Yeah. Like, I had a client, and and I remember having to run payroll, uh, in between flights going on my honeymoon because they had a 66-person payroll. And I don't really like clients that have that many employees because I don't want to be responsible for 66 people getting paid on time. Um, and that's when I knew it was like, "Oh, this, I have to get rid of this client." And they were one of my largest paying clients. But eventually, that relationship turned sour, and I was so thankful that I had started building a book of business alongside them. Because when I find, when they, the relationship finally was terminated, I was like, "Okay, now I have my life back." And I didn't feel the pressure or the stress because I saw it coming before it got there. So learn from me. Learn from me. Do not take on clients you just don't want to work with, and you know you don't want to work with, just for the sake of the money. You don't want to be running payroll on the flight to your honeymoon.
Yes. And look, shout out to Gusto, because I had just started using them, and they have the ability to upload payroll hours. That is what saved me. Um, because all of the hours were in a nifty spreadsheet, and I was able to upload it and get that payroll ran in like 15 minutes because we had like a 40-minute layover. But still, the stress.
Not worth it, right?
Exactly. But also the beauty of being virtual is I was able to do that. So one of the benefits of being virtual is being able to have employees from all over the country, as we discussed, also all over the world. What do you think about offshoring? Are you doing any of it now, Nile? Do you?
So in Africa, bookkeeping services, my admin is in Jamaica. Um, but I am not. I tried using a company before that was in India. There was just too much of a, a barrier for me. Um, I'd rather pay a little bit more and get, get some help that kind of understands the U.S. process a little bit better. So plus, I just don't, more relief. I don't feel right paying people like five dollars an hour. That just doesn't feel right to me. It feels very icky. Um, and I know that there are some firms out there that are doing that. More power to you. I'm not knocking you. It's just not my, my style. If you can make that work, the time zone differences don't bother you, the language barrier doesn't bother you, the, um, cultural differences, you can embrace them, then do it. But for me, I do like my team a little, a little closer to home. Um, you know, that recognize what's going on in the world. They, they kind of know what's happening. The companies that are here. Like, I felt like I was just, when I worked with that team over in India, I was explaining basic things to them, and I was just like, "Yeah, I don't want to do this." I need somebody who knows what Verizon is.
And there's a compromise. Um, or there's sort of a middle path too, which is when you're virtual, you can do the work here in the United States, or very close by, and you can hire people who are in very low-cost areas who are not looking for the compensation of somebody who's in New York or in LA or in Dallas or Seattle, right? And you can often make the economics work. I talk to a lot of firm owners who are doing that, setting up, um, you know, virtual offices essentially in these smaller towns. And yes, I know a few people. Kristen Keats has a full team that is in Mexico. Yeah, she's got that process nailed down, and I'm so impressed with how she's managing that. She gets to run her firm the way she wants to.
That's what I like about about being virtual is it just gives you so many more options than if you are stuck in that brick-and-mortar office. Just, yeah, I totally agree with that completely. And the niching, right? If you want to serve a specific type of customer, you really struggle to do that if you're in anything but like a major metro. There just aren't enough clients that are all the same. Whereas if you're virtual, you could say, "I'm only going to serve," I don't know, give me an example, Nile.
We like mental health professionals that are kind of just starting their businesses and they're earning 500k in revenue or less.
That's great. Yeah. I would say actually, that's probably the number one thing that you should be able to do before you start your virtual firm is like, define that customer, right? Because if you can't get them at the social event, now, the classic, the class thing, yeah. You can't get them at the, yeah, if you, if you can't get them locally, you got to get them online. And you can't just go out and say, "I serve all small business owners online," because then you're competing against QuickBooks Live, right? You're competing against these giant behemoths to do that. So, yes, doesn't work. It doesn't. But it's nice if you know who the client is and where they hang out online. So like, you know, I mentioned the mental health professionals, you're not going to find too many of them on TikTok, but a lot of them will post on Instagram or they'll post on Facebook, or they're posting on LinkedIn. So it's like, I kind of have to know where they are in order to go hang out where they're hanging out. Um, and so it makes it makes it easier to find that customer and and then be able to kind of build a rapport online. And people are like, "How are you building a rapport online?" A good old-fashioned videos, right? People can see your personality through stories or just, you know, what you post. I can tell a lot about a person, uh, if they post their pets, right? We know that there are cat lovers and dog lovers. I've gotten clients because, you know, my dog was featured in one of my YouTube videos. They were like, "I chose you because you have a dog." So the weirdest thing, but it, you know, shown up, shine that light on who I was as an individual, which made them know, like, and trust me. They felt like, "Oh, I know this girl. She's my friend. I want to work with her."
So that's a really good point. And I'll summarize it this way. I'll say, if you want to build a virtual firm, you've got to have a presence online. And that doesn't mean, like you say, "I'm going to build a virtual firm," then you go out there and you create this, uh, manufactured virtual presence. You have to be yourself, and you have to be in these communities as a real human being. So go find your people online. Um, I was talking to Sandra York, she serves personal fitness, yoga instructors, gym owners, that sort of thing. And she found them all on Instagram. And it's because she's totally into that world, and she was following all of them, and then she just started posting tax tips for personal fitness and built her own following in that world, and now she only serves those kind of clients. So I think that's, that's what you got to do.
I think the challenge is you gotta have a hobby, right? That really helps. You can't be working so much that you don't have something outside of work that that does help. Um, but for me, the other piece is like, if you're already working with clients, look at who's your favorite client you like to work with. Who is this? Like, say, "Oh, I like Karen. Why do you like Karen?" And list out all the things. What does Karen do? Find out the book she's into. I found out, like, like one of the things I know that people struggle with is finding content to create. If you find out a book that Karen likes, and you go on Amazon and look at the reviews for the book, you will find all the things that people who like this type of book are looking for. I found so many little blog posts I can write just looking at the things that the bad reviews, they're like, "This book didn't tell me blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." And it's like, "Oh, I can create some content around that. I can help this person." So that was good. That's a good tip.
Nile, I'm gonna, I'm gonna have to take that one. The other, here's another one. Nobody ever thinks about this one. Pinterest. Back in the day, Pinterest was like the jam. People find people's Pinterest boards, find what they pinned. This is the stuff they like. So if your clients are posting the things that they like, and you start highlighting those things on your page, they're gonna like you because they're like, "I like that too."
Mm-hmm. Yeah. And it helps if you like it as well. Let's not forget that, right? Find something that you enjoy. I think that's the thing about creating content that's important is it, it's gonna be so much easier if you enjoy it. Like, now I enjoy talking with you. Whenever I see you at a conference, I say, "There's Nile. I want to go over and talk to."
Her and so this is fun, right? This is not work. No. And I think that's what marketing has to feel like, not work. If you are a tax or accounting pro, because I mean, who wants to, who wants to do marketing that feels like doing a tax return, right? We don't. Because we got plenty of those. We do have plenty of those. Yeah.
It's, it's easy to talk about the things you like. So this is, it's just like when we talk about apps, right? What apps are you using, man? I can talk all day about a couple apps because I'm like, oh, I know all the tips and tricks. This is one I use daily, like Financial Sense is a new one in my toolbox. So like, I'm super excited about all the things they're doing. Matter of fact, um, did you see that they yesterday just launched this ChatGPT integration where you can build your templates using, using the AI? And I'm like, AI and the project management? Yeah. Like I was super excited to test that out. It's pretty, I just saw the video like this morning before we got on and I saw that you can type in, "Make a monthly bookkeeping checklist for a construction company," and it just goes and asks the AI to do it and it types in 10 tasks right there. Um, man, I went even deeper with it. I said, uh, "Prepare a tax return for a married couple that property in a business and that will need to pay their invoice before I upload documents to the client portal," and it made the checklist. Oh, check this was awesome. I was like, it's only three things I would have changed more of or tweaked a little bit. So.
And that's the important thing to note. You gotta, you gotta tweak it, right? Like it's not gonna be perfect, but it's gonna be, it gives you a starting point, right? It gives you that first draft. Which when you're staring at a blank checklist and you're trying to think, uh, how do I, how do I write a checklist for this thing that I do all the time, but I just, I just don't know where to start? That's really helpful. It's so cool. And you know, that's something easy for me to talk about because I love technology and I love automation. So it's like, I could talk about these two things and it's useful.
Let's do it. So we got a few more minutes. Uh, let's talk about get-togethers. I know a lot of virtual firms that do annual get-togethers. They'll do like, they'll fly everyone into a place, you know, spend a week together. Randy said, "We get together as a firm twice a year." Laura said, "We do an annual retreat and have monthly game night slash happy hours on Zoom." How about you, Nayo? Are you, are you at that point where you're, I know it's expensive. It can be expensive. We, I budgeted for it. I took my, my entire team came to QuickBooks Connect. We came a few days early, um, and had a team retreat. So, uh, I rented an office space in Vegas. So we met there for two days. I took them to dinners and shows. Um, and then they got to do some additional learning on their own. So like once the conference started, I was like, "Fly, little birdies, you were on your own. I'm hanging with my friends now." Um, but that was fun because they, they got to come in and, you know, travel and relax and in bed that they didn't have to share with anyone. Like, one of my team members is married. So she's like, "Oh, I had a king-sized bed to myself." Things like that. Oh yeah, you know, we take for granted. We had a photo shoot. So we took team photos too. Um, so it was, it was pretty, pretty cool to see. And I know that, uh, there are a few of my friends who use conferences as an opportunity to get together with their team. It just kind of solidifies that learning, as well as the bonding because you can do something fun either before and after. And, you know, you're, I feel like you're saving expenses because you were going to send the team to the conference anyway. Might I just tackle a couple more days, um, and it makes it, makes it an opportunity to bond.
You realize something about happy hours. Less I want happier online happy hours. So I mean, I gotta be honest, I'm not a fan of like virtual happy hours. Most people are not. Hands, I found out that happy hours can be exclusionary for who are, uh, who don't drink, right? Yes, exactly. So yeah, I don't drink. Most and most times you'll find me with a ginger ale in my hand. Um, but you know, I'm not a recovering alcoholic. So we gotta think about this, these kind of things too. Is when we're building our team, we have to be mindful of things that people may be going through that they haven't publicly shared. Um, and so switching up those events. You know, I like virtual magic shows. I'm a weirdo like that. Or the, the virtual cooking experiences. You know, everybody kind of gets the food and then you cook it together. I think that that's kind of cool. I haven't done that with my team, but that, it's on my little, I got a little checklist of, uh, here's some ideas I want to do. Yeah. And those are a couple that are on there. That I think you gotta be careful as a firm owner, right? Like not everybody on your team, especially as you get more and more team members, are going to be into the same things you are. And it can fall into the same pitfall, the same trap as in a physical firm where like I was in a big accounting firm office downtown, well, West Side LA, and like the constant, constant pressure was to go to the happy hours. And like I felt, in retrospect, I feel bad for the people that didn't like going to happy hours. And a lot of people would drink too much. It was, you know, there's this culture in accounting of like, we drink a lot because we work a lot. And that can be a problem. And I think we just need to be cognizant of that. Yeah. And it can be, you know, it can be exclusionary for those people who are trying to do the upward mobility, but because they're less social, they're seeing like they're not team players. So we, we also have to think about that too. You know, so like one of the pitfalls to working virtually is, or I should say, one of the benefits is that you don't necessarily get to lump people in these bubbles in the way you would if they were working in a traditional office. You don't, you may not know that this person is an introvert versus this person who's an extrovert, um, because when they show up to Zoom, they do what they need to do and then they get off. But then as the team continues to grow, you can see who's really dedicated, um, and what are they dedicated to. So you also have to kind of figure out what's important to you, each individual versus the whole team likes this. And it's like, no, they don't.
This is one of the things that's so awesome about virtual firms is they are and they can be incredibly diverse, right? Like you get people from all over the country, all over the world, all different backgrounds. And yeah, you've got to manage that, trying to create an environment that everybody's happy in. Like that's something you gotta think about, right? And, uh, yeah, I'll tell you, that accounting firm that I worked at wasn't particularly diverse. So you know, maybe the happy hours worked for that crowd, but yeah, it definitely can't force that onto people from all over, you know? Right. It's just so, um.
We got a lot, we got some chatter about the AI stuff now. People got excited about what you're talking about there. Uh, Megan asked, "What was the name of the GPT mentioned app that Nayo mentioned that she likes?" It's been Financial. Yeah, the sponsor, the host of this event that put this all together, Financial Sense. Thank you. It's there now, I guess, right? Yeah, they've launched, uh, I think it was yesterday. More they launched it. It is love, baby. Yeah. Go to financial, financial-sense.com and you can try it for free and and check it out. That's really neat. That's I've actually been, um, I'm gonna send out a survey to all of the different apps that I follow and ask them, "What are you doing with GPT? What are you doing with ChatGPT or AI?" And now I've already got an answer from one of them. Brian says, "I can't wait to be able to turn my inbox over to AI and it drafts responses for me." Yeah, I mean, let me tell you, inbox management is a hard one. Um, there was a company, so my admin actually came from a company I was using called Inbox Done. Basically, what they do is create, is they have a team that will manage your inbox for you. They will kind of highlight the most important emails of the day and then they can respond to your behalf. So, you know, that was one of the things that I'm so glad to delegate, uh, because we get a lot of emails. Um, and even now, we're still trying to figure out the best way to handle them all. But one thing, create templates for common responses, um, and, you know, have those little fill-in-the-blank moments. So like, for example, if you do tax prep and you know you're going to be requesting documents or any information from a client after you do the initial sweep of entering all the data they sent, I have a template that says, you know, what the subject should be and then the body of the email. And we have like three bullet points on there that I send to a lot of clients like, you know, "I need the residency documents," and these are the documents that it includes, or "You answered yes to the 'I sold some virtual currency,' we didn't see this form." So having those kind of already set up in in a like a file, a swipe file makes life easier. We're using an app called Type Desk for that. Yeah, yeah. Make sure I pull the right link for that. What a great recommendation. It makes life so much easier, um, because then you can share it with the team. So as your business grows, you're all on the same playing field.
I, I am so excited at the potential for AI to automate a lot of that, right? To make it easier. I mean, creating those canned responses is great. I do it a little bit, but I'm negligent. You know, you gotta really put in the time to make them. But AI, copy and paste it. So if I send this email, I will just copy what I sent to the client and then save it. Yeah. And then go back later and maybe pull out the personalized bits. I'll be like, "Okay, I'll use this for later, right?" And once this, and this integrates with Gmail, so it makes it easy because I can just select the one I want. Oh, that's great. Yeah. Yeah. Easy use is really important, right? It's got to, it's just gotta be easy to update, easy to create them, easy to send them. Um, wow. And I do a bunch of stuff for my cell phone. And I know there are a lot of people who are like, "Oh no, stay away from the cell phone." I like my, my keyboard shortcuts. So I'm very famous for answering emails from my cell because I have a bunch of things saved under keyboard shortcuts. It's like, you know, when you're on Facebook and somebody's recommending you for it because they're like, "I need an accountant," and then you get the tag. I have one that's called referral, and I say, "Thank you for the tag, such and such. When you're ready, go ahead and schedule this link." I just type one little word in a number and all of that pops up because I found myself typing it over and over and over again. I was like, "Yeah, we gotta stop this. We gotta automate it some kind of way." So.
Well, Nayo, you have just been full of gems of information. Thank you so much. It's been great talking to you. And before we go, I want to make sure that I thank Financial Sense, who has put this series together. This series is called Grow and Scale. It's a monthly series brought to you by Financial Sense, an accounting practice management software loved by over 1,000 accounting firms for its ease of use and tailored features. Learn more at www.financial-sense.com. And thanks everyone who's joined us. It's been so much fun. I'm going to hang out here and just make sure that I didn't miss any questions or chat, and we'll close things down. And Nayo, I know you gotta, you got a few more tax returns to do before you're done for the season. So we'll, we'll respect your time and let you head back to all that fun. All right, I'll hang out if there's any questions. If not, I will go eat my lunch that came super late. Let's see. We gotta thank you, thank you, Nayo. Thank you for having me, people. It's been wonderful. Yes, these are all fun. Um, you know, I'm so passionate about going virtual. It's the reason I started the Taking Your Firm Virtual Summit. So that, yeah, tell us all about that. What's the URL? Uh, takingyourfirmvirtual.com. Right now, the waitlist is up, but I, you can get a sneak peek. The dates of this year's events are August the, uh, second, first, second, and third. Let me confirm before I give you this, this, before I tell you the dates and they're wrong. No worries. Rowan says, "I've loved this conversation and I wish Nayo could join every time. Thanks to you both." Yes, August 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. Those are going to be the dates. It's going to be fun, fun time. You're going to hear more about how accountants in our community have taken their firms virtual in such a meaningful way. Um, and for anybody who's looking to hang out with me, I play a lot on Twitter. Nayo Carter Gray, N-A-Y-O-C-A-R-T-E-R-G-R-A-Y. [Laughter] And I am at Blake T Oliver. Follow Nayo. I won't be as entertaining as Nayo. I apologize. I'm just going to say that right out of the gate. You know, set low, set low expectations. No, I don't know what you're talking about. Plus, Blake hangs out more on LinkedIn than I do. And if you've never seen Blake's posts, man, his posts are very insightful, entertaining, and engaging. So I don't even know what he's talking about. Well, thank you so much, Nayo. I appreciate that. Yes. I don't see any more questions. So let me check LinkedIn one more time. Yep, I think we got it all. Right. Thank you. Thank you, Financial Sense. Thanks, everyone who joined us.