Transcription
We're here today to introduce a series, a survey of the Pentecostal movement. We're privileged to have Dr. Thomas F. Zimmerman, for more than 20 years general superintendent of the Assemblies of God, the largest of the American Pentecostal denominations, to be our special guest. Our theme for this session is: Who are the Pentecostals?
Good morning, Brother Zimmerman.
Good morning, Dr. Mensy. We're so glad to have you with us. And to begin our interview, I'd like to ask a personal question, if I may.
Feel free.
How did you come into the Pentecostal revival?
Well, it was quite interesting, uh, Dr. Mensy. Um, as a lad, my mother became very, very ill, and the doctors had given her up as having no further hope of any natural help. Now, this was in Indianapolis, Indiana.
Right.
That happened to be my hometown and where I was.
Right.
And, uh, my mother, through a relationship with, uh, Mrs. Alice Reynolds Flower, uh, knew of the Pentecostals and, among other things, had heard that they believed in divine healing. And, of course, with the very desperate situation in which my mother found herself, she had a recollection of this and discussed it with my father, and the two of them contacted a Pentecostal minister who came to pray for my mother when she was, for all practical, uh, reasons on her deathbed.
Now, when might this have been?
This would have been 1918, and we at that time were very active members of the Methodist church. My father was very active in the church and its work, and actually we were very happy in our relationship. And it was in that Methodist church, incidentally, that I accepted Christ as my Savior. I can remember very distinctly kneeling at the altar of that church and accepting Christ as my personal Savior.
Well, having called this Pentecostal minister to come, he brought with him about a half a dozen of the members of the church. And, of course, uh, he referred to the delegation with him as being a group of saints. And, uh, you know, that, uh, name is sort of held down across the, uh, years, the people who are following the Lord in obedience to his word. What better way could you refer to them as being saints?
Well, anyway, this, uh, minister anointed my mother and prayed over her, and there did not seem to be any immediate effects from the prayer. However, within the next 36 hours, my mother was raised from her deathbed. She resumed a very active and a very normal life. The doctor, within two weeks of the time when she was prayed for, after thorough examination, had pronounced her to be well. And the interesting thing, she lived for 38 years following that time of her healing, and she never had a recurrence of the disease from which God healed her.
That's a wonderful story.
Well, it made a very deep impact upon our whole family. Matter of fact, it made an impact on that church because, uh, her condition was so well known to so many people, and to see the dramatic change in her life, uh, was a testimony that was very effective. And really, through her healing, we were introduced to the full gospel church and, in due time, became members of that particular group.
Well, there's a great interest today about this Pentecostal movement. Uh, I'd like to ask you some questions, Brother Zimmerman, about the uniquenesses, the special things that characterize this revival that now is about 75 years old or more. Do you see consistent emphases that might be considered essential or universal wherever you see the Pentecostal movement?
I think there are some common requisites that I would distinguish, uh, among them being a conscious need of God and a deep hunger to reach out after God. Jesus, of course, pronounced a blessing on the hungry. He said, "Blessed are ye when you are hungering after righteousness, for," he said, "you shall be filled." I, I think a hunger is a very important matter. I think a feeling of need of an empowerment beyond that which you can find in the natural, uh, I think also an increased desire to, uh, find out the fullness of what the scriptures teach regarding our relationship to God. These are all, uh, fundamental requisites that I have found, uh, present wherever the Pentecostal revival has gone.
Do you find a heavy emphasis on the study of the Bible wherever Pentecostals are found?
Inevitably, there accompanies the infilling of the Holy Spirit with a new appreciation for God's word. Matter of fact, what, uh, from a normal standpoint of reading would seem to be a rather dry, uh, passage of scripture, all of a sudden is made vital and living, and, uh, people, uh, seem to find the greatest thrill in discovering the full teachings of what the word of God contains.
There's a close connection then between the attitude of Pentecostals towards the Bible that you would find, say, with other evangelicals?
I think that is true. I think that, uh, among Pentecostals, uh, the, the, the hunger for the word of God and the desire to conform to the teachings of the word of God are some of the most important, uh, features of the Pentecostal experience in the life of the believer. And, of course, among the evangelical groups, we like to refer to ourselves as Bible-believing Christians. I, I suspect that that is a little misnomer. I can hardly understand how a person could be a Christian and not be Bible-believing. There are many common features, I'm sure, of Pentecostals with evangelicals: a love for the Bible and, uh, a strong belief in new birth.
What are the unique aspects of the Pentecostal revival that might distinguish Pentecostals, say, from other evangelicals?
Well, I, uh, I suppose the most commonly held distinctive would be the understanding that Pentecostals have in respect to the baptism of the Holy Spirit, or as some may call it, the infilling of the Holy Spirit.
Tell us a little about this.
Fine. Um, I would like to be very clear at the outset that, uh, Pentecostals do believe that the Holy Spirit is a part of the regeneration process. It's impossible to come to Christ and accept him as a savior unless the spirit draws us. And, of course, when anyone is genuinely born again, the spirit does come into that life at that particular moment because that spirit gives witness with our spirit that we are the children of God. So, uh, what is commonly perceived on the part of some that Pentecostals believe that you only receive the Holy Spirit at the time of the baptism is not exactly the way we understand it. Now, the Pentecostal, of course, believes that subsequent to salvation there is this glorious experience of the infilling or the baptism of the Holy Spirit. I think probably the place where it is most, uh, vividly pinpointed was Paul's, uh, question to the Ephesians when he asked them, "Have you receive the Holy Ghost since you believed?" And remember there was a response on their part that they were totally ignorant of it, but it was then that Paul taught them regarding this marvelous experience. And while Paul was yet speaking, many of them were filled with the Holy Spirit.
The Assemblies of God would teach that the new role the Holy Spirit bears to the believer is an indument of power. Is that a fair way to express that?
Yes. Um, we, uh, consider it the, uh, fulfillment of what Jesus promised on the Mount of Ascension to his disciples who were gathered there. He explained to them that they would all receive power, the Holy Ghost coming upon them, and growing out of that indument of power they should be witnesses unto him in Jerusalem and all Judea, Samaria, to the uttermost part of the world. So, uh, it is indeed an impartation or an indument of power, uh, which, uh, I feel, uh, is one of the reasons a Pentecostal movement has been so active in the field of evangelism and have taken so seriously the mandate left to the church, recognizing that through the gift of the Holy Spirit there does come a dimension of anointing ability beyond that which is humanly available, which gives, uh, great, uh, power to the witness that, uh, reaches, uh, men and women around the world, even in our time.
So evangelism and world outreach missions, these would be manifestations of that?
I would, I would certainly consider it so, Dr. Mensy. I, uh, I think that again there are some that perceive that Pentecostals are more interested in, uh, speaking in tongues or in the manifestation of the spirituals, the gifts of the spirit. Uh, many assume that there is a fascination for some of these unusual spiritual manifestations, but quite to the contrary, the Pentecostal sees these manifestations of the spirit not as an end in themselves but as a spiritual means to accomplishing the end of the fulfillment of the promise of Christ. And, uh, I feel that it is deeply held by the majority of Pentecostals that upon the receiving of the fullness of the Holy Spirit it is not just for some emotional, uh, expression of a static joy. Thank God, that's a part of it, but it certainly is not the end of it. That comes as a byproduct of a very happy, delightful, fully surrendered life to God and an openness to receive the Holy Spirit in that individual's life for the purpose of making them a more effective witness for Christ.
So that common wherever Pentecostals are found is really an exaltation of the Lord Jesus Christ, of you with, without variation?
You see, the Holy Spirit is not given to attract attention unto himself. Matter of fact, he is in the world to draw men and women to Jesus. And the more we exalt Christ, either in our manner of living, in our testimony, in our ministry of the word, the more Christ is exalted, the more we honor the Holy Spirit, and he always enhances this beautiful manifestation of a better understanding of Christ. And, uh, the end of the Pentecostal experience is certainly not just an experience that is attested to by the speaking in other tongues as an initial physical evidence, but it really is a sharing of the treasure of the grace and love of God with those of our generation.
You see then that the Pentecostal movement may have a contribution to make to the larger evangelical world, a witness, a, an emphasis to be shared?
I think that's, uh, very much a fact. And I have been a little, um, disappointed at times that, uh, Pentecostals can live under a false assumption. Uh, in earlier days there was considerable persecution that accompanied the reception of the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Why, why might that have been? Why were they persecuted in earlier years?
Well, I think that there was a total lack of understanding on the part of most of the mainline churches at the turn of the century. I, uh, I believe that the manifestation was so new and so, uh, foreign from what they had known that, uh, probably there was somewhat of a spiritual sense of inferiority. Here had come a brand new spiritual phenomenon that they could not define because they had never experienced it. And because it had come with such force and with such dynamic impact, because they did not know how to cope with it, they felt the best way to do was try to, uh, uh, get the troublesome situation out of their own, uh, in, out of their own churches. This, I, I do not criticize the, the, uh, earlier, uh, Christians for their attitude because I think probably it was just a, a lack of proper understanding.
Do you see a change over the years, Brother Zimmerman, in the attitude of other Christians toward Pentecostals?
Oh, it's, it's unbelievable. I, I can remember when I began attending, uh, the National Association of Evangelicals when I was with them, uh, in their exploratory meeting. This would have been 1945, uh, when we met in St. Louis, Missouri, for an exploratory meeting. Um, I think that, uh, while there was a very open sense of fellowship and fraternity among those who attended, I think there were many who wondered at what place the Pentecostals might have. And, uh, I think that the, the, uh, consistent way in which many of us continued to have meaningful interaction with them, they could observe in reality what the priorities of our lives were. They could see, um, expressed in us a vision for the reaching the lost of the world. Gradually, I think, uh, there built up a, a real sense of appreciation and confidence. And today, I think that it's nothing, uh, you don't stop to think, well, is he a Pentecostal or is so and so a member of another church? There has come a beautiful merging together of, uh, the leaders of churches of every description. And, of course, it hasn't only happened in the evangelical circles. Probably it's had even a greater, uh, manifestation in the mainline churches. There's hardly a mainline denomination that has not had a phenomenal visitation of the outpouring of Holy Spirit within their own ranks.
These are exciting days, aren't they? The church has never had more exciting days.
Well, you've traveled a great deal, Brother Zimmerman. You've been on every continent. You've, uh, had opportunity to observe the Pentecostal movement worldwide. Do you see cultural differences? Um, are these relatively minor? Is it a particular kind of temperament that responds to the ministry of the spirit? Uh, how would you interpret what you've seen worldwide?
Well, uh, it is a global, uh, phenomena that's taking place. Matter of fact, many of the foreign countries are moving at a far greater, exhilarated speed than we see even in the United States. And I do think that there are certain cultures of the world that probably are a bit more open to the spiritual manifestations. There are others who are more reserved, some, uh, much more austere. I think all these human characteristics are a part of different nationalities. But I guess one of the greatest things that I've appreciated about the moving of the Holy Spirit, it is certainly supracultural. Yes, uh, I think one of the important lessons that many of us who have been engaged in missionary work through the years has now learned in a very practical way that the gospel of Jesus Christ is above culture, and it's not incumbent upon any witness for Christ to share more than the gospel, the good news of the salvation that is provided for by Jesus Christ, and let it have whatever effect it may have upon the culture. I think sometimes the church is equated, um, a religious response in the basis of how well have they realigned themselves with a western concept. Thank the Lord, as missionaries we don't have to export any of our western culture. We can accept people as they are in their own natural habitat. And there are continents, South America, Africa, dimension two, where really the rate of church growth exceeds that of our own United States. And certainly, uh, the major emphasis in many countries in these continents is a Pentecostal emphasis.
Where would some of these countries be?
Brazil, for example. Brazil would be a very important example. Brazil today, of course, their, their process of keeping statistics is not exactly as refined as ours, but, uh, I'm sure that conservatively there are 4 million Pentecostals in Brazil today, which makes it the country in which the highest percentage of the population are Pentecostal, out of a population of perhaps, I really can't tell you the exact population, 60, 70 million. I think it would be about that. And, uh, and the major thrust of the Protestant church is Pentecostal in Brazil.
But it's not limited to Latin America, is it?
No. Some marvelous things are happening in Africa, uh, places where the work seemed to make very slow progress, all of a sudden has just exploded in a new, beautiful manifestation of dynamic power, in whether it be Scandinavia or the Far East or Africa or Latin America.
What are, as you've traveled, are there common features of the Pentecostal revival that you would feel at home with wherever you would be? What would, what do you find when you…?
Well, invariably I am intrigued. My first impulse is the variations of their form of worship, but there is a common denominator in all of that. There's great joy, there's great happiness, there is a sense of fulfillment, and some express it in somewhat a more overt way, others in a less, uh, emotional way, but in every case there is a deep love for Jesus, and there is a lift that comes as they join together in corporate worship. I suppose the two hallmarks that are most usually found is the worship plus the dynamic, anointed preaching of the word and the emphasis upon the after service. These are all features that I have found to be operative wherever I've gone.
Tell me about those three things. What, uh, what characterizes Pentecostal preaching? What are the kinds of things you would expect in a Pentecostal service? And what is this after service? Tell us about those three things, Brother.
Okay. Um, the matter that I've already alluded to, the worship is a very beautiful thing. Uh, we talked earlier about the Holy Spirit always bringing us to a new appreciation of Jesus and to bring a sense of exalting him, and really that's what worship is all about. Uh, people who have a high view of Christ and who deeply appreciate what God's love has done for them can and will, and I think I could say must, respond in some kind of an expression of that love. The Holy Spirit helps them. The Holy Spirit, uh, gives a new dimension, a new release, uh, I think that there is a, uh, aspect of loosening us from some of our human inhab-inhibitions that would normally be a bit more stayed and subdued.
Doesn't it get kind of noisy?
Well, at times it does, but I like to tell people that, uh, well, they say God is not deaf. I say, no, but he's not nervous either. So I think it's always good to remember that God takes us as we are, and he knows our temperament. The matter of Pentecostal preaching, one thing that you can always rely upon, it is scripturally based. The spirit and the word agree. There is no dichotomy between the spirit and the word, and Pentecostal preaching will be fixed upon a scriptural foundation. There will be a sense of, of extra ability to express it in a, in a way of great emphasis. And, uh, while the minister is ministering the word, the Holy Spirit is present in that service to take the word that is preached and apply it to whatever needs may be existent on the part of the people in that service. This is a very important aspect of a Pentecostal service. There is something in it that, uh, is very, uh, is very meaningful for every individual.
Today we've been talking to Dr. Thomas F. Zimmerman, general superintendent of the Assemblies of God. He's been speaking to us about what it means to be a Pentecostal.
Brother Zimmerman, it's been a delight to have you with us and to share with us.
So happy to have you today. It's been my joy.