Transcription
There's no meaning in life.
How do you think your first acupuncture experience will be like?
I have no idea. I have some sleep problems, but it's my first time doing all this.
Would you like me to explain more?
At one point I just looked at my hands and I'm like, what is real?
I'm Mark and this is Confessions to My Acupuncturist. Before each conversation, my guest receives acupuncture.
How does it feel?
Feels fine.
And then we talk about the questions they're wrestling with.
I grew up as a pastor's kid. Indoctrinated is a fair term, right? Like I was basically brought up in the church and indoctrinated into the creed.
We all inherit beliefs about who we are, what's true, and how we're supposed to live.
But you go deep within and you kind of wrestle with something and to me that's just some version of like saying that you're wrestling with God.
But what happens when those beliefs stop feeling true?
Found myself like a ventriloquist, I think. Like I kept My mouth kept saying things that I didn't actually believe.
In this episode of Confessions to My Acupuncturist, Yu Win shares how growing up as a pastor's kid led him into an existential crisis.
I might do a lot of things that I feel are true for me that other people might question and that's fine.
And how the philosopher Søren Kierkegaard helped him find a way forward.
The truth [music] is what is true for you.
My name is Mark and this is Yu Win and today we'll be covering some stuff.
This month I'll have a book published to my name titled After Nihilism and the basic idea is that right now in the world everything feels default nihilist. Like people are suspicious of meaning. Like does life have any meaning? Is there, you know, some some higher thing about this universe? Most people might greet that ques- question with some kind of suspicion and so I'm kind of addressing it from that level. Like everything right now is questioned and people are very cynical, and the basic premise by the end is to explore whether there is a path forward for meaning. 5 years ago, I started writing it from the position of like having a lot of thoughts uh because that was a whole maybe yeah, 5 to 8 years long journey of figuring out my faith. So, background for everyone is I grew up as a pastor's kid, right? So, born into a Christian family, indoctrinated is a fair term, right? Like I was basically brought up in the church and indoctrinated into the creed. Uh but then over time I encountered a lot of doubt. I'm like, "Hey, you know, I'm not so sure about all these things. Like, why shouldn't I do this? Why should I do that, right?" It doesn't It all feels like something that I was molded into versus something that I fought for myself. So, alongside a lot of that questioning came a lot a lot of reading and questioning and like figuring things out. So, um yeah, I fondly remember one shower I had where I think I was showering in the dark for some reason, and then I had so many thoughts, and then they all kind of just spilled out in my head. It's like, "Oh, like one bullet point is this, and then second bullet point, third bullet point, and then oh, this first bullet point adds into micro bullet points." And then my immediate thought is like, "I have to write this down." So, that was the birth of the book. I would say it is all born out of that personal like like wrestling with like at first my faith, but at the end of the day, in the final form, it's like completely agnostic. So, like, you know, whether you're Christian, Buddhist, I don't know, a Satanist, you can read it the same way, right? It speaks to the same fundamental human condition that everyone has.
So, I I zoom in to your own faith. It's It's a very unique situation. Pastor's kid, you grew up as a Christian, a certain kind of Christian. If it's okay with you, could could you share some of the philosophical struggles that you went through?
For sure, for sure. Uh yeah, I grew up in a church. Like many other pastor's kids, I was forced to serve. Uh it's not a bad thing, you know, the way I'm saying it now is as if like I was uh traumatized or something. I I not not really. It's quite a pleasant experience, honestly. So, yeah, so I was super involved that way, right? All the music stuff, the youth stuff, uh like I was also very playful, so I was always running around the church, and everyone knew me as like, you know, the naughty pastor's kid. Uh but yes, so over time, where my struggle started was only really when I moved to Australia. When you get out of a certain environment, or maybe people would say echo chamber, then you realize that oh, there are other signals, so other forces, so other possibilities out there.
Yes, yes.
And I always tell my dad, hey, you know, dad, I actually really applaud you because you sent me to uh Australia, and I have at one point and I was nine I was 19, right? I had this really strong sense, like I could have really gone anywhere. Like I could have been uh you know, obvious I could have been like, you know, a really good kid. Like 50/50 chance I could have been like, way down the other side, whatever that looks like, right? So, yeah, I told that to my dad, and he chuckles, but uh yeah, a lot of the struggles was just people would ask me questions, you know, being outside of the echo chamber, it's not so nobody just takes what my reality was for what it was anymore. You know, why do you go to church every Sunday? Yeah, and then at the time I was also wrestling with those questions, but I found myself answering what I always answered, which is like, oh, you know, I think God is there, real, and um I found myself like uh ventriloquist, I think. Like I kept my mouth kept saying things that I didn't actually think. Uh and after a while, it became more and more apparent. You know, it's like there's this gap between like, I'm actually not sure of what I'm saying. It It the feeling is very much like, I'm sure everyone everyone is familiar with when you're in school and you don't know the answer, but the teacher calls you up to answer the question, then you're kind of making up an answer on the spot. You know, and it sounds good. It sounds like something you've said before, but is it correct? You have no idea. Is it actually honest? Like you have no idea. So, it's a kind of feeling, I guess, then.
So, is it like, you know, just now you used the word indoctrination, right? Is it like the indoctrination come up, but then you doubt it in a way or something?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe it's because when you're in different circles or different environments, then you are also like given different ways of looking at this thing that you've been brought up into.
Yes.
You know, like I don't know. It's like you've always seen an apple from here and it looks good, but then you've learned to see it from the other side and it's actually a bit, you know, it looks it doesn't quite look the way you expect it. But yeah, so at the end of the day, I think a lot of the doubt came mainly from questions that or like just being around other people. Uh and then obviously once that was born, then the more I sort of had it within myself and I think the biggest moment that came to a spurt was like actually
[laughter]
It's also how I start the distant part of the book, but it's like at one point I just looked at my hands and I'm like, what is real? Like like
Oh.
I don't even know what this is, you know.
Uh this was how many? One year in in Australia?
Yeah, one two years in, about there.
Okay.
like 20, 21, maybe. So, I would call it, you know, maybe people would call it an existential crisis or something. Maybe.
So, it was quite a struggle that you feel even lost there.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like I don't know what is real anymore. Like what is honest? What is like is there anything? And then I think this is where uh a lot of what I'm trying to write about is for people like what I was doing at stage two. Cuz then the easy answer, the easy way out is like, ah, you know what? There's no meaning in life. Uh nothing exists, you know, like all these things you see out here, everyone else is just like figments of your own imagination, which is I think more prevalent than we tend to think it is. I think a lot of people actually think that even when they are like you know, much older.
Yes. There's this term I I that came up like it's a spiritual identity. Just using those words, could you sort of speak a little to that? What aspects might have changed because I I I I bet you're a very spiritual person, that's why you are struggling with this. What was the before spiritual identity? What was it in the middle?
yeah, yeah, I think every journey has a similar pattern and that's the one I also went through, right? Which is what First, you don't question it, you know, you just kind of grow up in it.
Mhm.
And then the next position is you start to question it and then you go the other way around. You're like, that is wrong. All right?
Mhm.
And then when you grow older or like you mature a bit, you're like you learn to like tread the line between the two. You're like, you know, this is correct but this is also correct, you know, there's something there and you learn to I guess have a higher perspective over the two. Um so same thing with my spiritual identity. When I grew up, I was very much like, you know, good whole boy. Like, I was telling my classmates, don't swear, you can't say swear words, you know, stuff like that. And then uh uh when I had went through the existential crisis of sorts, then I went the other way. I'm kind of like, you know what? I don't know what is real. I don't think anything exists actually and I can just do whatever I want and uh
So, you went the other way. So, let's say you're talking about vulgarities, you just went off
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think I still kept myself grounded as far as far [laughter] as I could. I didn't like, you know, just I didn't like go crazy, but uh my in internal like view was that, you know, all of that was kind of questionable. I was indoctrinated and like now I'm veering the other way and like the honest position became like, you know, nothing is real, right?
Okay.
But then it was only after thinking a lot and actually like Kierkegaard, you know, which is like one of my favorite writers, I came across him and I was like he kind of helped me understand a lot. Two, which is
So, okay. I Cuz the listeners may not know. I I only knew when we went to your house and then you had these books. And I know the guy Kierkegaard is a philosopher, but I didn't know connection to Christianity at all.
Kierkegaard is very very complicated figure, but I think the one of the traits that are quite powerful in for me now, right, is truth is a subjective truth. Basically, so what is true is not just, you know, oh, there's some scientific object out there in the universe that's watching over you and trying to like compel you to do what he wants you to do and all that, right? But the truth is what is true for you. Right? And now a lot of people will say like, oh, does that mean like anything that's true for you is true? It's not. Okay, let's put that aside for now. Um what that helped me realize too is you know, every time you're wrestling with God and you're wrestling with like spiritual identities and all that, all you're wrestling with really is like what is true for you. Right? Whether that's like And it's it's there's always something that you're trying to wrestle with and that's I think what I think about spiritual identities, which is if you're not a Christian, you're something else and if you're not some if you're like a Satanist, if you're not that, you're something else. I always like what Bob Dylan's song says, which is like, you might serve the Lord, you might serve the devil, but you might you must serve somebody. I think like that, right? And so basically the spiritual identity there is like at the end of the day, you're always looking for this truth that is true for you. Right? And like what where you find that is kind of where you find God in a way. Um and so what that helped me realize at the time when I started getting really deep into Kierkegaard, right, is uh you know, the church I can it's funny cuz back story is Kierkegaard kind of hates the church, too. But uh he thinks the church basically imposes a lot of things on the individual that makes them like more like a part of a crowd than actually a true Christian. And then that's where he starts to say like, "No, actually being a true Christian means wrestling with God and learning to wrestle with like what is the truth?" And there is always a gap, right? You never like, "Oh, I finally got them got I've never fight I finally got them what's true for myself." You always wrestling with that, but it's how you attune yourself to that that makes all the difference.
Can you
Yeah, this is very interesting some meat in there. So, you're saying this Kierkegaard I think there are many Christians who might be going through what you mentioned. There was something that that caught me. Part of the the whole Christian journey is to continue struggling to find your own truth.
Mhm.
The monolithic church truth is not it.
Yeah.
Correct?
That's that's that's quite complicated, but yeah, so like Kierkegaard was known to hate the church uh like he hated the church because it represented like the crowd basically, right? It's always like, "Ah, you must do this. You must believe this." Kierkegaard at the end of the day identifies truth as something internal. So, that's where he's like the church is at fault for making truth external. It's like it's No, instead of you really going deep into yourself truth in the eyes of the church becomes something like going to church every Sunday, you know, uh being ingrained in the community and like serving and then going up the ranks. I don't know, being a pastor and all that.
Yeah, there's some rules
Yeah, it's it's it's it's becomes very uh it becomes truth becomes flattened into some kind of you know adherence to a norm, right? And that's where Kierkegaard in a separate philosophical tangent. He writes about Abraham as like his hero, right? His big hero. A lot of Christians who go to church treat truth as something very safe. Like, you know, you just go to church, you abide by the right thing, you'll be fine, you know, you go to heaven, right? Cool. That's done deal. But then he writes about Abraham. Abraham actually in his book called Fear and Trembling is the guy who obeyed God to the point of like an absurd command, which is I think God said, "Go and kill or sacrifice your son," right?
Mhm.
And then uh Abraham was like, "Yes, cool, I'll do that." And then Kiekegaard basically writes about 100 pages saying like it was such an absurd command because he couldn't even tell anyone this. If he told Sarah, his wife, or like other people that, "Hey, God told me to kill my son. I'm going to kill my son tonight." They'll be like, "What is What the hell is wrong with you, right? You're insane." Uh and so that is where like Kiekegaard also writes that our true relationship with God is something you wrestle with internally, but it also it's also sometimes very absurd. Like uh it might be very questionable, too. Um but then in one part of the book he also writes about case in point, going back to what we mentioned, a lot of pastors today will preach about Abraham, sorry, in a very like flat sort of way. So, they're like, "Oh, you know, Abraham was is the father of faith. He was the guy who really obeyed God. And so everyone must be like Abraham." Without actually reckoning with like, "No, Abraham was actually batshit crazy, you know? Like almost insane if anybody knew actually what he was going to do before he did it." Um and so yeah, I think it's that big separation between like what's subjectively true and that is the relationship with God. And then the church sometimes flattens that a lot and makes things very safe and then kind of imposes itself on this thing and then you know, it makes Christianity cheap.
Makes Christianity cheap.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. yeah.
Can you cheat means what? Mass
it it cheapens or flattens what is supposed to be. It I mean, Kierkegaard would say something like it finitizes what is supposed to be infinite. You know, it it like it makes a a big relationship feel like just, you know, adherence to laws or participation in an in-group or stuff like that.
Okay. Okay, so just now you said something that caught me also. You said something about your internal truth in relation to God.
Mhm.
It can be quite ridiculous.
Yeah.
Okay, so how I understand it is like you could be living in a certain way or understanding the world in a certain way and other people look at you and they'll judge you.
Mhm.
And say you're a lousy Christian or you're spiritually wrong or whatever.
Mhm.
There's something about your internal life or someone else's internal life that can be judged by others because it's a bit weird or it's wrong or it's a bit crazy.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's quite a It's quite a contentious topic even within the world of Kierkegaard, I would say.
Would you mind sharing a bit of
yeah, so Kierkegaard was also writing in a world where like the Christians, a lot of philosophers were creating systems that like boxed the individual in a concept, right? So,
Okay.
like for example, before Kierkegaard, a lot of philosophers, whether it's Hegel or other people, would be like, you know, this is humanity and this is human consciousness. It's like this and this is that system that all human activity falls under. And then Kierkegaard basically came as like the knee-jerk response, like, you know, whatever systems that any human can build, right? Whether it's like a thousand-page textbook on like what human being is and what a human being should be,
[snorts]
I am somehow still outside of that. So, he's basically his impulse is like uh no matter what people say I am, I am something else. I'm something deeper inside me. The truth is what is true for me, and then he writes at the end like he doesn't know what his truth is yet, but he desires it, right? Kierkegaard, I think, is really representative of like finding your inner truth, basically. For example, one might say, "How about" This is big controversial, but like jihadists, right?
Okay.
Is what if your inner truth is to go and bomb something, right?
Yes.
Then, that's actually a good question. That's actually a good like rebuttal to Kierkegaard, but that's where a lot of other things come into play, you know? Um Perhaps that will be a separate rabbit hole. But at the end of the day, I think where Kierkegaard comes in and where that reflects in my journey is like, "Okay, let's forget the institution. Let's forget morality, what people think is right and wrong. Let's just learn to look deep within and reflect. And when you look deep within, it's never like quite so simple as excavating, you know? Like some psychologist like to paint it as like, "Oh, you go in go into your childhood and all that." I don't think it's so simple. It's always like you go deep within and you kind of wrestle with something. Like uh something that's not there, something that's there, something that I need, something that I don't have, something that I should be, but I'm not. Uh and to me that's just some version of like saying that you're wrestling with God, right? It's just secular way of saying that or psychological way of saying that.
Yes.
And so, the main thing is that turn was for me like the later stage of my journey where I like, "Okay, um at the end of the day, I am wrestling with this thing. I might do a lot of things that I feel are true for me that other people might question, and that's fine, right? And I guess the another secular slash spiritual way of calling this is calling, right? You know, I'm here to find my calling, and then I'm going to exercise it even if it's questionable. You know, I'm not going to go and kill somebody.
Mhm.
Uh that's the separate rabbit hole, but
Yeah.
you know, at the end of the day, I'm trying to find that stake in myself where I'm I'm doing what I I should be doing, which is also to say I'm doing what God wants me to do in a convoluted sort of way. And and then yeah, just living out that sort of stance.
So like, I'm just thinking of a modern-day Christian and I don't know, the way you say it allows that person who feels like his journey or his his uh worldview or his even his morality is a bit not like what the the institution is saying. So then like gives this person a way forward, I feel.
Yep. Yep. Yep.
Right? Because it allows if I'm that person, then I can feel my way through and it could be a lifelong thing. And I can go to different congregations or different you can say spiritual leaders or pastors or churches and say, "Okay, I may not agree, but I'll learn something that is useful from here or I I can go to others and disagree most things, but I can still appreciate it. It doesn't have to be too black and white because I just take whatever works for me." That that's that's what I sort of take away. Is that it?
Essentially, and I think I think that's what everyone goes through, too. Right? Cuz even whether it's a church or a family, actually yeah, we just watched Michael Michael on the movie on Michael Jackson and I guess the church for Kierkegaard would be Michael's dad, Michael Jackson's dad. Cuz in the movie basically, the whole of Michael Jackson's life without I mean spoiling it was uh spent on trying to evade his dad's control. Right? But then I guess if you put that in a like a way that reflects what I got for a lot from Kierkegaard, but also my own life, it's like like you know, hey, like there are all these forces out there and you you you a lot of things out there are out there to box you into something, but you know, you're always slipping outside of that in search of you know, the the truth that's true for you. And you might end up challenging a lot of norms. I think that's the whole point, right? Because like for example, what is right and wrong now was not the same as 300 years ago, right? So that's a self-revising process, right? And perhaps you can play a part in that.
Okay. Thank you for this conversation. The the thing that hit me was the truth that is true for you, right?
Very careful with that.
Yes. So uh thank you for listening in uh to this convo. So Kierkegaard and what's true for you, uh I learned so much as an acupuncturist from Mr. Yuwin, and thank you for listening. Bye-bye. Okay.
Nice. Yo, I was like I was like