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Trap Talk Reptile Network, the coolest reptile network in the world. Episode 707 on the tree Tuesday, brought to you by the Reptile Perch. And tonight's guest, the Reptile Perch, David Brahms. Great episode tonight. Finally, the return with uh David Brahms, but this is the first time he's ever gonna be with the one and only mayor of Condro Town, Bill Steel and Marshall at the same time. What's up, fellas?

>> What's up? Glad to be back, boys. Glad to be back.

>> I know it's been a minute.

>> It's been four weeks. MJ, congrats on the new edition, man. I I already

>> Yeah, man. Cheers.

>> I already know, but I'll ask anyway. How's Enzo doing?

>> Oh, man. Honestly, it's a blessing, Bill. It's uh it's it's something, I'll tell you that much. Um [laughter] you know, going from going from one to two is like not it's not for the week, man. Um but we're adjusting. We're doing well. And um honestly, like couldn't be more man I couldn't be more blessed, bro. I'm honestly this is the dream, bro. Like I've uh I I have have so many eventful things in my life that that have happened, but when it comes to family, like this this tops it all, bro.

>> this is great. Yeah, number two uh number two is was more uh a life lifestyle changing event on my part than number one was. And you're probably feeling that as well. Um because you know now you know you've got

>> there's no escape.

>> There's no escape. You've got Leo.

>> There's no there's no there's no nap time. And then if it ain't one, it's the other one.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. We're even we're even looking at it like we still have it easy because the dude can't move right now. like he's like [laughter] he's like he's at the point where he can't crawl yet. But once he starts crawling, like that's when [ __ ] gets all stepped up to a whole another level, man. But uh yeah, dude. Day by day, man. Just I'm happy to be back. I feel like uh feel like something's been missing out of my life. And it's these Tuesday nights, I'm not going to lie. I'm happy to be back.

>> Yeah, I'm super excited to be back. I've missed it. Um, you know, sometimes when we just go week after week after week, feel like you kind of get in a rut, but you know, when you take a couple weeks off or three weeks off, a month, I just couldn't wait to get back tonight. So,

>> yeah.

>> By the way, I haven't been off just twiddling my thumbs. I've been thinking strategically some of the next guests that we're going to be bringing on on these Tuesday nights. Yeah. And so, like you said, Bill, the re the reset, the recharge was needed. Um, even though there's not much recharging as far as my sleep goes right now, but like, dude, mentally, I'm ready. I'm ready to rock and roll. Um, but Bill, you have something you want to shout out tonight. Um, I don't want to forget, so why don't we get to something you want to shout out? Go ahead.

>> Well, thank you. Um, I wanted to say thanks to uh a friend and supporter of the podcast, John Ortiz. John is the manager of Foley Family Wines and Spirits, and he has sent me over the last couple weeks some incredibly badass red wines. So, I wanted to stop. I wanted to thank him and I wanted to do a 15 second taste test on a wine that he sent me. I have not had this wine before.

>> It's a Holy Barrel Select Pino.

>> Wow.

>> So, I literally just opened it. It's been breathing for an hour.

>> All right.

>> So, we're gonna take a taste on air live here.

>> Some of the people's first questions in the live is, "What is Bill drinking?" So, this is kind of crucial. We might need to do this more often.

>> All right. Well, let's see here. This is kind of like Red Neos. [laughter]

>> Take notes.

>> All right.

>> Very nice. Very nice fruit forward presentation. Um, finishes well on the back end. [laughter]

>> I know you like that.

>> In uh cherry,

>> pine nut.

>> Pine nut. Okay. All right. [laughter]

>> Red pepper. No green pepper. [snorts and laughter]

>> This is This is hours and thousands of dollars of experience right here.

>> It's absolutely fantastic. So this this is a classic example of California California Central Coast Pino [clears throat] Noir. It's brilliant. John, thank you so much for sending that wine. [laughter]

>> Right on. So

>> thanks for letting me letting me uh give him a shout out.

>> Yeah. Listen, at the end of the day, I mean, if if people take care of us, I know that. Um, and especially you, Bill. I know people send you a lot of [ __ ] So, anytime you want to shout out someone hooking you up, I don't mind, you know, and

>> I appreciate that.

>> Maybe someday when Marshall sells something, he'll [ __ ] get a shirt or something.

>> Well, well, John John asked me. He, you know, he wanted to know what your guys' weaknesses were, and MJ, of course, told him what yours was. He may not be able to help you there.

>> Oh, good.

>> He might. He's in Northern California, so he may That's [laughter] That's a Mecca right there, bro. They get the

>> Marshall. I would expect many cases of Miller Lightite coming your way in the future.

>> Nice.

>> I'm just going till May and going back to Red Wine. Just so [ __ ] to be very clear about that. Okay. This is just a thing I'm doing. Once I get

>> Once I get to your mark, I'm going back to Red Wine 100,000%.

>> Well, then John Ortiz will hit you up, my friend. Trust me, he's taking good care of me.

>> All right. Well, listen. Uh, speaking of friends, we got David Brahms back tonight. Um, I man I I gotta say, you want to talk about someone who's consistently be putting some good quality stuff out there, this is the guy, man. And I'm not even talking the purchase. I mean, the purchase are are something I have for all my uh boreal snakes and whatnot, but Bill, I feel like you've been uh you've been you've been knowing Dave for quite a while now, I would say. At least 10 years. 10 plus years, right?

>> Yeah, absolutely. At least probably longer. Had the chance to meet him at least at least on one occasion. He came into Dallas and uh he and Patrick and I met up and had uh dinner one night.

>> Yeah.

>> Um yeah, I've known David a long time. Very familiar with his work. He's uh produces great stuff. He's a he's just a great person. I think he's doing this full-time now between the animals and and the uh and the the the accessories, the caging and all that. So, look forward to getting him on tonight and getting caught up with him because I I haven't talking with him in in in quite a while. By the way, you guys made Patrick look like 5'2 in that photo. [laughter]

>> You remember what I'm talking about? That was a long time ago.

>> Yeah. Well, that's where I that's where I was able to jack this uh I'm pretty sure this photo right here, that's that photo. That photo right now in the thumbnail. That That's from that night. That's from that night. So,

>> very very cool.

>> Yeah. So, and real quick, Marshall, what are your what's your relation with Dave? Um cuz he's he's excited that we're actually all going to be on together because I think last time Bill couldn't make it. So there's always one of us missing, but now it's all of us together. So what do you know about what do you know about about Dave Brms?

>> Uh I've got I've just done a lot of uh he's helped me out quite a bit with my uh perches and you know I've got his stuff and all of my most of my old racks are habitat systems. So when I purchased them whatever like 20 years ago had purchases for all of them but they've you know they've broken fallen apart. So, I'm having to kind of replace them. So, I've got his using his uh his perches and all my Camro stuff. And then in my vision cages, he made helped me make these little perch holders that'll hold that that hex rod that I use for for perches.

>> And it holds them without so they don't spin.

>> Um, which was awesome. Made me a little template for it. And then for my Amazon treeboa cages, he kind of worked with me on the exact dimensions and sizes and sent me like some, you know, sent me like a plywood uh like a plywood render to make sure it would fit. And then finally, you know, cut cut the stuff out of whatever uh I don't know if you used MDF or HTP, but like like a ladder tic-tac-toe board thing specifically for the Amazon. It was, you know, custom for the cages that I have. So yeah, man. He's he's a sharp guy.

>> He's incredibly creative. He's he has sent me I think you guys too coasters custom coasters with my logo on it and

>> I keep I keep a few around, dude. Come on now. Like

>> there you go. There you go. Yep. Yep.

>> Yeah.

>> He's so creative. It's It's unbelievable.

>> He's the man, dude. All right. Well, I don't want to wait much longer. Let's bring him on. You guys down or what?

>> Let's do it. Do it.

>> SHOUT OUT TO EVERYONE IN THE CHATS. YOU GUYS ARE BEAUTIFUL. BUT DO ME A FAVOR. Hit the like button and then do what you got to do to get your mind right AND DO WHAT YOU GOT TO do to stay hydrated. This is episode 707, Return of David Brahms, the reptile perch. Best perches in the game coming at you right now. Let's go.

>> Good.

>> You ready for do more in the future? Trap Talk podcasters.

>> Yes.

>> Only only Trap Talk exclusive.

>> Exclusive only.

>> So stop calling us. [laughter] When I come up with the Got to love it, love it or not. I'm hot from the spot. Get the club [music] when I come up the spot. Get the club. [music] When I come up the spot, get the club. When I come up the spot, get the club. [music] When I come up, everybody, we do it. [music] Everybody, we do it. [music] Do it. [music] Do it. [music] Do it.

>> [music]

>> Get the club when I come up with the spot. Get the club when I come up with the spot. Get the club when I come up. [music] Get the club.

All right, we're live. Episode 707. And welcome back, David Brahms. What's up, buddy?

>> What's going on, guys?

>> What's up, David? How are you?

>> Good to see you, bro.

>> What's that?

>> Good to see you.

>> Yeah, same here.

>> Happy Tuesday.

>> Happy Tuesday, my man.

>> Yeah. How's everybody doing?

>> Good. Can't complain.

>> Good, man.

>> Yeah. What's

>> How's the weather up there in Maine right now?

>> [ __ ] [laughter]

>> It's horrible.

>> This is like the worst time of year in Maine. It just gets really gray and cold and wet. Not that great. It's wet. Yeah.

>> But but the snakes snakes, you're getting ready for breeding, I'm assuming.

>> Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's definitely in high gear right now.

>> Yeah. And so

>> you got you got pairs together already. Locked up. Locking up.

>> Yep.

>> Yep. This is about the time of year that I get everything put together.

>> And that's had that's never changed with you, huh, Dave? Like you've always stuck to your season. Yeah, it everything's pretty much on a a pretty good schedule here. They're they're um pretty repeatable. Um and everybody seems to sync up and you know, around October, November time frame is when I usually start putting animals together and getting them paired up. Um seems to work well.

>> I got a question for you right off the bat. You know, I I'm thinking, you know, Dave, you've raised females at this point and bred those females. Um what's like you know since you are having s success sticking to a season um have you ever had a female just not go with the rest of the girls and and you're just kind of like ah I gotta figure her out and and what was it you did to figure that female out? Did she just eventually go during your season or did you find a different time of the year where she went?

>> Yeah, I have a couple females that don't uh follow the same program as everybody else. I couldn't tell you why. Um but uh they just like to go later than all the others do.

>> And I still pair them the same time. Um and all I do is I just keep them together and ride it out until something happens. Um or, you know, if it's really obvious that nothing's going to happen, then I'll uh eventually separate them. But generally, I just keep them together and everybody else will have ovulated and laid eggs and then these guys will eventually uh come around. At least that's what's happened a few times. uh that uh they've done that. Darkhorse is one that I have uh that she is just a lousy breeder and wants to go later than everybody and she doesn't produce great clutches and you know it's typical the ones that you like the most are the ones that give you the most

>> headache because she's she's so good-looking. She she's got her hair [laughter] like like a smoking chick who can't cook worse [ __ ] She can't do anything else. Like all she is she's just smoking. That's it.

>> Yeah, that's right. How many pairings this year, Dave, do you think will will eventually happen? How?

>> Um, well, let me see. I I have to count my head real quick. I've got um one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine. I've got about 10 pairings going on right now.

>> Wow.

>> Is that your Is that your the most ever?

>> Yeah, this is the most I've done so far.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. Because for I remember bringing you on the first time you were more four clutches like was like your happy medium range, right? Three and four.

>> Yep.

>> Yeah. I've got a bunch of spring that have finally made it to age that I, you know, was anxious to to get them paired up. So that's why I have a few more going this year than I have in the past.

>> Ask that again, Marshall.

>> I was going to say, are you doing one male to one female or are you spreading the males around or what?

>> No, it's one male to one female so far. [clears throat] Yep.

>> Was I wrong? Was I wrong, Dave, in the introduction? Uh, this is what you're doing full-time now, right? Print in your company, your cage and accessory company.

>> Yeah, the the breeding in the in the caging supplies, that sort of stuff. It's my full-time gig. Yep.

>> That's awesome to see. And honestly, Dave, like, man, I have Oh, man. I I know a lot of people got snakes from you and um, dude, nothing but good things, bro. Like,

>> good to hear. I'm not just saying that because, you know, you're friends of all of ours and you're a sponsor. If that wasn't the case, I just wouldn't say [ __ ] I promise you. You have you have nothing but great things productions that you're putting in people's collections and and I get updates all the time of people's like, "Dude, look at this David Brahms I got from a year ago. My buddy Juan Faran, who's not far from me at all, he's a big he's a big fan of your stuff and he has some of your animals that I just admire. So, I want to give my hats to you, bro, because you're you're putting great good quality out there.

>> Thanks, man. I appreciate that. Yeah, I I don't know about you guys, but selling these guys and shipping them out to people, it's probably the most nerve-wracking part of it for me,

>> dude. I was telling Bill, I was like, Bill, how do you do this, dude? [laughter] Like, like, it's so uneasy because I I me and Bill, I preached on the show, it's on the seller if [ __ ] doesn't go right. Like, you know, for whatever reason, you got to [ __ ] you got to be able to nut up and take care of it. And when you have I think the most I had going out was like 12 babies. And I just Dude, I told Bill I was like, "I'm not gonna sleep tonight." He's like, "No." He's like, "No, you're not."

>> Yeah.

>> But yeah, you're right. I mean, am I wrong, Bill? Like, dude, it's

>> No, it's uh it makes for long nights for sure. Uh I really try to ship in just pristine shipping conditions. Alleviate some of that fear because I just assume the animal's going to be delayed a day. Yeah, I I look at temperatures, you know, two days in advance, you know, through the hubs and through the final destination. And uh if I'm shipping out a, you know, these animals that, you know, everything's got to be really, really perfect. And I'm lucky where I live, you know, my temperature such that I can I can ship a lot of times of the year. It's most of my shipping is dependent on where the the buyer lives.

>> Right. Right.

>> Okay. But real quick, I did I'm glad we brought up shipping because this is a topic I wanted to cover with all you guys tonight. Even though Marshall doesn't, HE SHIP ALL PYTHONS.

>> I DO. I DO. I SHIP all kinds of stuff.

>> I get it. I Okay, we're talking condos here. All right. No, not to put things in a different demographic, but we're talking condos. It's nerve-wracking, but shipping anything shipping anything could be. But what I want to get to guys is um I don't know if you guys follow Morph Market, but you know, obviously they have no shipping protocol right now. Like you should not be shipping because of Thanksgiving, which makes sense. But people are getting push back. Not everyone, but there's some breeders who are like, "Bullshit. We should be able to ship right now if we want to. Um like you and especially Bill, you've had so many snakes that you have people on hold for, but I feel like you being the seller have the rule of thumb to be tell the customer it's not safe to ship right now and we're we're going to ship on this date when it's safe. Like it's we have the authority on that, you would say, right? And and and what's your take of people thinking it's okay to ship during this time right now?

Well, I mean, I I absolutely agree that it it is definitely on on the seller to, you know, to pro provide an animal that's um you know, alive and thriving in in good conditions. Um

>> yeah,

>> but you know, I I've had people that have pushed back and my response have been, "Okay, I'll ship it, but I'm not taking responsibility for live delivery." And then the next reply, of course, is okay, well then don't ship it. You know, we I'll wait. So, you know, people can push, you can push back.

>> Yep.

>> I mean, I saw where they they sent out a thing today that, you know, like calling people out who had shipped. Um, and I see there where they had the insurance turned off, you know. Um, yeah. But

>> ultimately, you know, like I agree it's not ideal, but like, you know, there there's some just I think right now it's not necessarily because of the weather. I think it's because of the shipping traffic with all of the, you know, Thanksgiving and Christmas.

>> Yeah.

>> But, you know, also I I've shipped, you know, obviously ball pythons are a different deal, but um I I've shipped during this time a ton and I've never had any, you know, knock on wood, never had any any problems.

>> There's 50 packages delayed right now in in in Memphis. And so, and and more

>> they're very transparent like, yo, we have this much being held right now and people still don't give a [ __ ] Well, again, I'm not I'm not trying to say it's okay, but I'm saying you you you pack and you anticipate that they're going to be an extra day and they're fine.

>> Yeah. And you know, luckily right now, temperatures I mean, maybe I'm mis mispeaking for daysild,

>> but in most of the country right now, temperatures are pretty pretty moderate. Um,

>> yeah. So, you know, even if it's to wait a day, uh, you know, probably, you know, pack it with a 72-hour shipping, I put a face pack in, uh, with all my boxes and, uh, you know, as long as those things are kept inside, they can stay in that box for a week, you know.

>> Yeah.

>> So,

>> no, no question. The best thing is don't ship right now,

>> right?

>> Yeah. It seems kind of common sense that you would you wouldn't want to do it Thanksgiving week.

>> Yeah, dude. Dude, think about everything, all the online packages, just like everything going on right now. What am I?

>> Not to mention, if you if you ship yesterday and it's delayed tonight, then

>> who knows when, you know, it could be Monday.

>> Yeah.

>> Before the snake, you know, before it ends up getting where it's supposed to be.

>> And remember guys, we don't have the best employees in the United States right now. Like we don't Thanksgiving, I don't know how many people are actually going to show up to work. Like, we don't know. Like, it's just um it's a rough time right now. Like I wouldn't want to I wouldn't want to do anything where it's already kind of a delicate moment and I already know FedEx and the whole that shipping world is going to be so overwhelmed with so much [ __ ] Um even like the week after Thanksgiving even though they're even though Morph Market's like yeah you could ship the week after even then it's still like [ __ ]

>> Yeah, it's a risk you know and then and being a seller where it's if it lands on me it's going to be up to me. I feel like right if it's if I have to be the one to replace it

>> then it's going to be up to me. But like Bill says, if you're going to if you want it that bad, well then it's on you. If [ __ ] no matter if that [ __ ] goes to goddamn Indonesia, I don't care. That's not my fault. It that's that's all on you. But I I don't see why someone would want to be that impatient. Like just wait. It's easier when you just wait. Animals fine. I'm going to feed it. You're good. Just wait.

>> Yeah. Especially in the Condro game, there's no rush, you know? Rushing and hurrying is your absolute enemy um

>> in any scenario.

>> Yeah.

>> Okay. Yeah. Speaking of rush, Dave, let's be honest. I I want to know how much of the ball python breeders going to condro rush have you've experienced? How many people have been in your inbox? Has it been more than usual as far as the new the newer keepers in, you know, inquiring about stuff with you? Have you have you noticed it at all?

>> I mean, it's been pretty steady. Um, and you know, it's been growing each year, but definitely like with regards to like the animals and things, the the uh the inquiries have definitely gone up quite a bit.

>> No doubt.

>> Yeah. Well, again, going back to your production, you know,

>> are you are you sold out of babies from from last year?

>> I am. Yep.

>> How many did you uh produce and how many did you sell?

>> I I'm trying to think. I was trying to think of this earlier. I didn't have the the greatest year. I think it was like I want to say I had like around 35 total babies somewhere around there. And uh I sold all of them but any of the holdbacks that I kept, which would be I think like four or five animals. So question for you Dave. Um the yellow neonates that you do make are they coming from insane pairings or are they coming just from your pure monory pairings like are you making yellows on both sides or

>> both sides?

>> Okay. And and I got to ask you when it comes to a yellow designer um like how are you pricing them? Um because I I know one thing also about you. Your prices are great from what I from what I've heard with people. But like when it comes to pricing a red that you know is going to turn a certain way. Now I mean not you can't guarantee it but you know what I mean. like you have a good feeling what direction, but then you have a yellow neonate where you can't be as confident, but it's a yellow. So, how are you pricing those? Like how how's that and how's it how's it worked for you?

>> Yellows are tricky because um you know just because everybody's been down on them for so long that they've gotten a really bad rap in my opinion.

>> Wonder why. [laughter] A and I understand, you know, where people are coming from focusing on on red babies, but um you know, a lot of the yellows that come from like the prodal lineage and stuff like that turn out to be absolutely beautiful adults and um and also too what I have found like with the manaquaries and and also like the mixed lineage stuff that I have um you know pairing a a red adult to a yellow uh adult which you know when they were red and yellow as babies

>> Yeah. um you're still going to get phenomenal offspring out of that pairing. I I don't think it's an absolute necessity to do red to red. I've I've produced some amazing animals from red to yellow multiple times.

>> And you know, I think they're missing out when, you know, they're like, "Oh, no, it's got to be red only." No, you you can produce really stellar stuff uh when you do red to yellow, too. Uh it just really depends on what the lineage is that you're working with.

>> There's just ways to work

>> on the locality stuff. I feel like some locality uh actually the yellow babies turn out nicer than the reds.

>> They sure can. Yeah.

>> This this was a yellow neonate, right?

>> Um jeez, I don't my screen's so small. Yeah, it is.

>> Okay. And

>> that was a Bushmaster import,

>> I believe. Yeah.

>> And how long ago did you get that snake if you could recall? How I mean I don't know.

>> It was probably like around 2013 time frame I would say.

>> Still around?

>> Oh yeah. Yep. Wow. Okay.

>> David, are any of your uh breeders proven to be manicores that are red dominant?

>> Not yet.

>> No.

>> Haven't proven it or or have have have disproven already?

>> Oh, disproven. Yeah.

>> Because you're I mean, if it takes your guess, Dave, how many generations you think it's going to take to to make a a monory a red dominant?

>> A pure manquari? Um gosh, I don't know. I'd have to look and see, you know, uh it's a guessing game, I guess, because you know, they're import um what they're stacked with gene-wise. Um but, you know, I would imagine after uh a few uh you know, uh you know, you get a clutch, you raise them up, and you breed those together, and you know, I would imagine after a few, you know, attempts doing that, you might end up with a red dominant. Uh it's hard to say. Yeah,

>> in theor in theory the first generation should you should produce red dominance, right? If the if the genetics work the way we think they do.

>> If you read red to red, then yeah, you should Yeah, you should. Yep.

>> You know, you you won't know which one

>> already. I just don't know it.

>> But the the the real determination is when you go red to yellow. That's how you [ __ ] know if you really got the red dominant. And and um Bill, I know Joerger was the the the type that give you red and yellows, but Sickness, for instance, um was that a red dominant, do you think? Um

>> yeah, I think he was probably red dominant, although they only produced one clutch. It's it's hard to say. Freight Train is definitely red dominant.

>> Okay.

>> He's produced many, many clutches um and have never thrown a yellow. Somebody uh put in the comments they think that Saltzman's Manori is red dominant, but I he just produced some yellows.

>> Yeah. So, questionable there.

>> I don't know. I I can't remember if that was from his Manori uh clutch or not. Um

>> did it didn't it didn't he get Monory stuff from you, Dave? I could have sworn Saltzman does. Am I tripping?

>> No. No. I think he got it from Gary.

>> Gary. Okay. Yeah. Um Yeah. I don't know. I mean because again a pure monory red dominant first and foremost if you knew you had a red dominant pure monachory and let's say you're producing stuff you're holding back that you know like you could prove that they're red dominant don't you think there needs to be a [ __ ] value increase on there somehow like like you would think this monory that I'm typically selling for like 3500 that's a red dominant should be more than that now you' think right like if if you if there was just some way to prove it is what I mean

>> yeah I I would I say so because the chances of getting more extreme offspring are are going to be higher I would say when you eventually breed that animal so it should command a higher price

>> if nothing else too you sell the babies for for more money you know you don't

>> they're all red yeah

>> right

>> no doubt no doubt about it

>> so then I'm assum I already know then Dave you have specific monory projects where it's just red neo to red neos and that's that's the that's the whole you know game plan with getting these red dominance at some point Yeah, I mean I do both. I I don't hesitate to breed red to yellow. Um and I also do red to red. Um just because from what I've seen the results um you know I don't think they're that much more spectacular to be honest with you when you get a red dominant with a with pure manquari.

>> They're just different. Yeah, I agree. Manory yellow versus red they're just have a different look.

>> Yeah, it depends on what you're looking for. Yeah,

>> but but what's the deal with that snake that you just had pulled up with the yellow eyes?

>> Dark horse.

>> That's dark horse.

>> I uh I imported or I bought her as an imported red baby manaquari um right around that 2013 14 time frame I would say.

>> Wow,

>> those eyes are amazing.

>> Crazy.

>> Also Bushmaster or No.

>> Yep. Yep. Dude, I swear, man, that I mean, some of the stuff that Bushmaster was able to put out in people's collections like this that's able to breed has been some of the nicest stuff I've seen like import wise like

>> Yeah.

>> Um, if you got

>> that, it's gone. Yeah. We had so much more variety.

>> Yeah. More wild cards, right? Like a lot more exciting. Oh, I think I was I came in right towards the end of all that where you would see a post on Facebook of this like this import like available and it was just [ __ ] a freak show. Like you don't you don't see those no more. I feel like I feel like they're hoarding them now. I feel like they don't want to give it to us.

>> Yeah. I mean, who's importing them?

>> I mean, I don't I mean, I know Chris Appan has some that was being sent in, but not like what we were used to seeing from Bushmaster. I think Bush Cameron just had that connection at that farm, you know?

>> I think Is the farm even open?

>> No, the farm's gone.

>> Farm's still open.

>> From what I understand, that farm is no longer. Um,

>> but you know, Dr. Jones, what another famous snake of yours. Um, how many how many has he sired at this point?

>> Oh, um, gosh, I think I've gotten at least five or six clutches from him, I think, now, if I were to guess.

>> Legendary.

>> I originally got him from Gary as a baby.

>> Wow.

>> Yep. He I think he was produced it was a joint venture between him and Rico that produced him and Mako uh but they were two separate pairings um that they both uh have Prada Manquari uh in their lineage.

>> You want to know who's our like I think correct me if I'm wrong but you want to know who's like our new Bushmaster is Gary. I swear Gary's like I mean I mean I'm not saying he's bringing in the the condos like at that level which I know he I know he does still bring in Macy condos but if you think about the bowl and eye some other stuff I don't want to mention that he has coming in dude Gary's the man bro when it comes to the import [ __ ] for sure.

>> Yeah. Nothing wrong with that.

>> He's been that way for 30 years. Yeah. Yeah.

>> Yeah. I mean, before before this stuff, you know, he was doing carpets, getting carpets from Europe and Germany and England, and he he he's he's been doing that for

>> long time.

>> Yeah.

>> He's got the connections.

>> He does.

>> Now, what was what was it, Dave, about Monori that made you want to work with that locality? Um because I remember your story from, you know, you didn't jump right in and go ballistic right away. I I remember you kind of like you did you did some homework on the stuff you wanted to get into, right? And and I'm wondering what it was with Monaco that stood out the most.

>> It was a few things. Primarily, I just like how they look. Um, you know, with those really sharp dorsal diamonds. I like that a lot. Um, I like the fact they stay smaller than some of the other uh subspecies and species and and um I don't know, they just struck a chord with me and I went with it. And the other part of it was that um there wasn't a lot of them floating around. So it kind of made sense to try and collect some while you could um to build up a collection because there weren't 200 other people doing the same thing.

>> And and again, Darkhorse, right? Um which what we're looking at um how much is how much has Darkhorse changed um throughout the years of you owning her? Like

>> a lot.

>> Yeah, a lot. She's gotten progressively more blue with age, which most of them do anyway.

>> Um, but when she went through her change, she had a lot of melanism, lost a good portion of it, but also retained quite a bit. It's almost like a, you know, like a mint chocolate chip look to her now.

>> Yeah.

>> The dorsal is pretty clean, too.

>> Yeah. And

>> blue stripe.

>> She's got those really bright yellow eyes. Just really a unique animal. I I'm I feel lucky that I got her. It was purely luck that she turned out that way.

>> Yeah, but I feel like there's a reason behind I'm a big believer where like the stars align in this hobby for a reason. Like I feel like there's a reason why Joerger was with Bill. There's a reason why [ __ ] goddamn marshmallows albinos and doesn't sell anything else. And then I feel like with you like you're meant to hit this this opportunity with Darkhorse for a reason cuz like I said, not only with Dark Horse, Mr. Jones, dude, you're you're making crazy [ __ ] with everything that you've had now, Dave. Uh which is which must feel great. It must feel amazing to finally be at this point, you know.

>> Yeah. Yeah. It's awesome. I mean, it's been a long long time getting here. Um, you know, I just slowly built up the collection. Um, I only bought I think uh Mo and Dr. Jones were the only two that I got from from breeders. Then everything else was Bushmaster stock.

>> Yeah. Um, and then just slowly built up the collection and and uh, yeah, I feel really fortunate that the results of the pairings that I've done turned out the way that they have. That's, you know, again, purely luck. I could have ended up with all green snakes, but, you know, for whatever reason, the genetics have lined up really well with uh, a good portion of the animals that I have. So, I I feel really lucky.

>> Yeah. You know, Go, Marshall. I was gonna say this snake, Dark Horse, you you you bought got it as an unchanged animal and it changed to that.

>> She was a red baby. Yep. And then in about a month after I got her, she started changing and uh went kind of crazy, which was great.

>> So h how how was she as a baby compared to her offspring? Like what are you noticing? Like are you not noticing similarities with some of these offsprings or was she completely different? Like a freak like a freak of nature type of thing?

>> I mean she just went she went black, you know. um which her offspring haven't done. But uh I've got the very first one uh the first animal from her her first clutch uh that I just raised to adulthood that I'm I'm trying to breed her this year. And she turned out she's like this really neat powdery blue uh uh color um that you know they they're all different. They don't really look like the mom at all, but they they look really good in their own right. You know what I mean?

>> Yeah. And so again, this is a pure monory, right?

>> That's how she was sold to me. So,

>> all right. Okay. So, again, we don't know 100%. Because I bought some of Gary's Afrack Monory Afrack stuff and and that's shit's nuts. Like I was when he showed me the pairing, I was like,

>> "What?" And he's like, "Yeah, these are pure cowies." And I told Patrick and here comes Patrick. He's like, "No, sorry. Those aren't puries." And I'm like, "What do you mean, Patrick?" and he went down the whole [ __ ] rabbit hole where like we don't know exactly the true like origin of like the babies where these came from like was somebody [ __ ] around with a pairing when they had them

>> because you don't see a lot of these examples like I mean how many dark horses are out there like that are there's not there's like this is like a unique one of a million type snake if if it is a pure monachori you know what I mean

>> right the only animal that I've ever seen that looks very similar to that and I think he says it's a manicquari is James Opal's Um he's got an old female manaquari that is blue um with a lot of black flecking on her too that looks very similar. Uh not identical but uh very similar. So it kind of makes me think maybe you know maybe there is something to it. It's hard to say. How many females?

>> What? Go ahead.

>> What locality was um Arctic Blue?

>> Um

>> was that okay? Cyclops kind of looks kind of reminds me of that a little bit, too.

>> It's it's it's odd to me. What's cool about her is that she she looks almost like like she was uh

>> good thing

>> almost like she was caught that way. Like I don't know. She's kind of got that wild type look to her, you know, that she does with the

>> Yeah.

>> with with the colors that you don't see in a lot of animals that were raised in captivity for whatever reason.

>> Everything about her says Manquari except for the extreme color. Um, you know, she she's got jet black tail, the size of her, the the dorsal pattern, everything says manquari. Um, and then she's just got this really cool phenotype that, you know, it could be that maybe in the wild they, you know, these pop out occasionally. It's hard to say. I mean, I've seen some crazy looking pure Baks. Um, like I I forget the one. I think Ari Flaggo sent me one where it was like almost a complete blue by Beak with like splotches of yellow. There was black on it. Um, and

>> my my uh you know, my um blue cyclops locality was as blue as they come, you know, and she was just a wild uh wild animal or a farm bred animal. Um supposedly Cyclops locality type, just as blue as they come, you know.

>> Dude,

>> so they're out there in the wild.

>> This thing is a freak, bro. Like this thing

>> she's awesome. I just see you must just be thrilled to look at this thing, bro. Like,

>> oh yeah, I I love her, but man, I it would have been nice to get like a really nice healthy 28 clutch or something from her, but it's never happened.

>> How were the six that came out where were they fully fertile or were they issues?

>> Yeah, I mean I each time she's produced, which is twice, uh it's been a small clutch each time and only part of the clutch has been fertile. And then once you finally get to the point where they hatch, um I'll, you know, this last clutch I got two babies that went the distance, um, and they're perfectly healthy, great babies. And her first clutch, um, I only got I think I had two or three hatch and only one of them was was any good. Uh, but again, that animal's flawless.

>> Same same sire with both clutches, Dave.

>> Yeah, it was. Yep. But but he's produced, you know, that's Dr. Jones. He's produced a ton of clutches. So

>> So it's not

>> no issues on his side. It's really her.

>> Yeah.

>> You know, uh one one thing I wanted to ask you, Dave, you mentioned the size of the lo the manicory locality type. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're keeping all of these things in the big camro tubs, right?

>> I am primarily. Yeah. I have a few that are in converted tubs that aren't Cambros, but

>> but still breeding adult females in those large Camro tubs.

>> Yep.

>> Y

>> and that's been your thing for ever since I've known you for the last like

>> six years.

>> Yeah, pretty much the whole time.

>> Yeah. And and and again, your females, the biggest female you have is under a thousand grams, right? Or do you have do you have any big girls?

>> I don't have any massive girls. No.

>> No.

>> Geez, man. Um Oh, what was that? Go back. What was the one right below that

>> this one right here?

>> Yeah, that one.

>> That's Dark Horse. That That's Dr. Jones and Doc Horse, right?

>> Yep, it is.

>> Look at that. My god.

>> It's cool how they both have yellow eyes. Like, do a lot of Micros have that?

>> Yeah, that's a Mon.

>> Yeah, she's unique though. She definitely as an adult, uh, the yellow eyes like her stand out quite a bit.

>> Dr. Jones yellow?

>> No, he was a red baby.

>> Both red.

>> Yep. Amazing. Amazing difference in their appearance.

>> Isn't that neat?

>> Yeah.

>> I want to turn this into a pillowcase and sleep

with it every night. >> I'm gonna make you pajamas. [laughter] >> Or maybe a night gown would be better. >> Yeah. There you go. Negl. [laughter] >> Uh, so did you you held back every single baby that made it from this pairing or >> I I have. Yeah. Yeah. Which is only it's only three babies, but Yes.

So Dave, you know, little I want to ask you, you know, with the experience that you've had in the hobby, like how important is it to hold stuff back? Like when you make stuff finally, um, you know, obviously I feel like you get the first pick, Dave, from what I could tell, but how important do you feel like that is for the longevity of what you're doing with everything? >> I mean, it's extremely important, but I don't really follow it as good as I probably should. >> So you're like Bill then? >> Yeah. I've I've let you know quite a few animals go that I regretted letting go. But, you know, like like Bill has said before, it's free advertising and I'm happy for the people that got them. I honestly am. Um, and >> you know, for me, it's just I I just getting the proof that the pairing that you did resulted in something that was really good is good enough for me. And then I always know you could probably repeat the pairing and you'll be able to get some other animals that look just as good if not better. So I don't really sweat it when I let them go.

And and Dave, correct me if I'm wrong, but kind of like in my scenario, you know, this is your business. This is how you feed, you know, you and your family, you know, every year is by selling these. So, you know, you just can't hold them all back, right? I mean, >> I can't particularly now. I I let almost everything go now. It has to be pretty special for me to hold on to it now. >> Yeah. >> Dang. [clears throat] I got a little bit of like I got a little bit of what you guys just said, but I also have a little bit of Marshall in me only because >> Well, you got to remember you got to remember is that there comes a point where you can only hold back so much, right? Like if I didn't have empty adult cages, I would have to sell stuff, >> right? I mean, there comes a point where you either have to add cages, add room, add another room, add whatever. But he's out of space. I'm just I'm not there yet. I've been trying to get there, but I'm just not there yet. >> It comes down to space. It comes down to logistics of time of >> how many how many freaking NEOs do you want to produce and establish every year? >> Yep. >> Yeah. >> Um Yeah.

And so with that being said, uh Dave, you know, like what do you look for now? I mean, when it comes to you picking out a Neo, um like what's the first thing that your eyes are are searching for? like pattern uh the certain tint of red like what's the first thing your eyes are looking for? >> Yeah, it's the the red tint is a big indicator for me uh on the manaquari stuff, >> right? >> Um and also just the pattern too. Just like is there something unusual popping up in the pattern that >> I haven't seen yet. And this last season I did get um a handful of animals from the like the Dr. Jones and Makeo clutch where there's like these really busy squiggly uh black markings on their flanks and stuff that uh hasn't been as prominent before. Uh so I held back a couple of those.

Are any of the babies on here? Like any of those dark horse babies up here that I'm not that we could check out. >> Uh see, keep going up to the very top like the most recent stuff. >> Okay. >> All right. Here I am top. So the very first one on the left there on the top is uh that's Darkhorse B. The very Yeah, that one. >> This one right here. This a dark baby right here. >> That's from her first clutch. Yep. >> Wow. Holy [ __ ] Damn. >> It's a female. >> Yep. I'm pairing her up for the first time this year. She's just now old enough. >> So she looked like Okay, correct me if I'm wrong, but she looks like she wasn't heavily patterned. Like am I wrong? Am I wrong? Am I right? Like were those those diamonds that you see on her? Were they small or were they pretty big from what >> I mean they were like how they are now just as a baby, you know? >> Right. So from >> But she had a really thick dark like dorsal. Um she was a really nice looking baby. So I knew it was going to turn out to be pretty cool. >> Okay. Something like this. When you see something like this, right, Dave, that's your [ __ ] That's a winner right here. Right. >> Yeah. I I held on to that. Is it because of all the black that's in the pattern? >> Yeah, Marshall, come on, dude. [laughter] >> I mean, the black, as you know, is guaranteed to go blue. Um, and then everything else is just going to be bonus. Um, you know, when they have that, it's kind of hard to describe the tone of the red. Um, but it's like a uh to use like a wine reference like a merllo or something, you know? It's like or a burgundy. Uh, it's it's like this very specific red that um I know that once they grow up uh there's going to be a high amount of blue and every time that uh I've seen it they they've turned out that way with these guys. So >> yeah, man. Like this one right here and even the one behind it on the floor like I could see like >> and Okay, so that's the thing, huh? So that black, you know, turns blue. >> Yeah, guaranteed. >> So okay, what about the black that stays black? Like how do you are you able to determine which ones have like >> Well, that doesn't really kick in until they go through their color change. So when they start going through their color change, that's when they can develop the melanism and some of that stays and some of it doesn't. But right when they hatch, all the black markings that they have when they hatch out, those that's all going to go blue. That'll stay and go blue eventually. >> Oh my gosh. So how many clutches did you get this year, Dave? >> Uh I think I had five. Four or five. >> Six last year, right? Didn't you get six last year? >> Something like that. Yeah, >> something like that. [laughter] >> Crack. >> Yeah. What a problem to have. I want this problem for sure. Yeah. I can't remember. I don't know. [ __ ] eight. I don't who knows. Um >> but I have small clutches. I'm not like a lot of these other guys. I have yet to get a clutch where there's like 20 eggs, you know? >> Yeah. I think the biggest I've had was 18. Um >> yeah, that's way that's bigger than me, too. I usually get like a baker's dozen. That's usually what I end up with. [ __ ] Bill. >> That makes sense if you're saying there they're that they're a smaller, you know. >> It lines up. Yep. >> Yeah. And Bill, your last clutches were [ __ ] bangers, right? Like you had pretty good healthy. I think the last last clutch was 20ome. >> 23. 23. One of them has gone bad. Um, but so I've got 22 due to hatch in three weeks and they all look good. >> One bad. Oh well. [laughter] >> I It's ironic. I had MJ written on that egg, too. >> [laughter] >> went bad. >> What? Alex Warren maneuver there. Jesus. Put my name on my name on the [ __ ] yellow one. Uh, [laughter] no. Bill had nine clutches this year, Dave. >> Holy [ __ ] >> Yeah, >> that's awesome. >> Kind of like you. Some of them were small. Um, one of them I only ended up with one Neo. Um, you know, it's it all it all evens out, you know, in the long run. But I don't typically have big clutches either. >> The designer stuff. We've talked about it before. I think they they tend to like smaller clutches. >> Yeah. >> Um even the bigger animals. Um so >> yeah. Um you're establishing this year compared to last year. Any big difference? Anything that you're that you did at all different with the babies this year or it's the same thing or what have you noticed? >> No, I I've got that pretty well locked down now. At least I feel like I do. Um, it's funny when you see new new breeders and stuff and how they get all panicky and worried about, you know, getting animals to eat and that sort of stuff. I don't sweat it at all anymore. It's like, you know, the way I go about it now is once they hatch, uh, I used to try like feeding them before they shed. I don't see any benefit in doing that anymore. I just wait until everybody sheds out and then uh then I'll start feeding trials. And the way I go about it now is um if that if an animal doesn't accept a meal after two attempts, I immediately go to assist feeding and and I just do it until they decide they want to start eating and it's super easy. It doesn't, you know, stress me out at all. It doesn't stress them out.

What are you assisting? >> What are you doing? Yeah. How are you doing it? >> I just do mouse tails and uh hind legs from mice and uh, you know, you just pop it in the back of their mouth. You don't shove it down their throat. You just put it in the back of their mouth and and you know, they just squirm for a little bit and then they eventually they eat it and it takes five seconds to do it and and I just keep doing that until they decide that they want to switch on. >> Yeah. I mean, dude, if it wasn't for Bill, I would probably would have been stressed out about the I think I think out of everything I had this year, it came down to about like 14 pain in the asses. And I was trying to be like, just play it cool. They'll eat when they want to eat. But then this was all calico stuff, so it was [ __ ] really getting to me. And I just realized like how much the other stuff that was eating was growing a lot faster. And I'm like, dude, no. Like I I can't I don't want you guys to be [ __ ] puny. And so after I think what episode it was with Bill, he's like, I don't [ __ ] waste any time now. Like if it's if it's going to be a bit big a pain in the ass, it's being a cisfed for the next [ __ ] four or five sittings. No, >> assist beating's easy. I I don't It's not a big deal at all. It's >> But also, it's like you got to find whatever trick that is easy for you to do. I feel like if you go down the list, like if you start with pink heads, you're gonna have a bad experience. If you [ __ ] if you find the right one that just goes down right in the back of the mouth and stays there where they can't spit it out, it's [ __ ] easy. It's It's not an issue. >> Tails are tails make it really easy. >> They do with the hairs, you know, the hairs pointing in the right direction. It makes it almost impossible for them to spit it out. >> Yeah. >> You know. >> Yeah. Well, >> you know, I should say it's easy when you've done it before and you've had experience doing it. Uh, but I can imagine if you've never done it before, it's probably pretty intimidating >> because, you know, everybody's afraid that they're going to, you know, they don't want to touch the animal because they're going to break it. >> And, uh, you know, you just, you got to develop a technique that works for you. Um, and then once you do and you realize that they're not quite as delicate as everybody makes them out to be, >> they can handle it. You know, and as long as you do it right, it should be a lot less stressful than beating them up for a half hour with with a pinky that they don't want to eat, you know? >> Grab it the right way behind the back of the head and that [ __ ] can't do [ __ ] All right. And, you know, secure the body and open on up and [ __ ] down. >> Sometimes I can even do it without having them leave the perch. I just sneak up, grab them, shove it in, and and let them go, and they stay right where they were. >> I didn't have any exper uh luck with that. I tried that, and it just didn't work out. But I think Chuck was somebody who said like, I don't even take them off the perch. just put it right to their mouth. And I guess some even just open and did they bite it like that? I'm like, well, that's [ __ ] must be nice. I didn't have any of that [ __ ] Like, >> no. I mean, if that was the case, you don't need to assist feed them, right? [laughter] >> What are you doing? >> They're eating. >> Um, so, okay. So, out of everything you hatched this year, like when I mean hatch, like fully out perched, everything made it or do you have any kind of just randomly die on you or any prolapses? every year I I'll get one or two that'll prolapse um just randomly, you know. Um, and my experience with the prolapses is they generally don't do very well. Um, I don't sell them uh when they, you know, if I have one that prolapses only because I haven't had one yet where once it's prolapsed, I've been able to get it to like completely calm down and and stop prolapsing. So, um, you know, those animals just never leave here. They don't make it generally. >> I [sighs] didn't want to talk. >> I'm dealing with that myself right now. I've got one that it's prolapsed I don't know three or four times, but my I'm just like experimenting with it and I'm feeding it, >> you know, I gave it two weeks off when it first happened, >> put it back in and um I'm just feeding it regular just like just like all the other ones. And it every time it shits it prolapses a little bit, I just put it back in. So, we'll see see what happens. My experience has been, you know, one prolapse is okay. Yes. Most most babies that prolapse once and you put it back in and they don't have any trouble after that, they're fine. But that second prolapse, I don't think I've ever had one survive longterm that's prolapsed two or more times. >> Yeah. >> I feel like it's a rule of one. You know, if it gets anything after one, good [ __ ] >> It's a done deal. >> Yeah. >> And I finally had my my first experience. Well, knock on wood, but I had two prolapsed, which I feel like it was because my room got too dry personally. Um, because they were trying to take it like I I think I caught them. Ever see a baby like almost prolapsing while it's [ __ ] um, but then it kind of goes back in on its own. Well, it was like that but pretty severe. Like it it looked like a full-on prolapse, but they were just literally pushing really really hard. Um, I took the perch out, did the whole thing, and I did no assisting on getting the prolapse back in. It went back in on its own. And I feel like that's also a good sign. Like if you if you see a prolapse and you leave that snake alone for 24 hours and it goes back in on its own, that's great. That's that's that's more likely it was just had a massive [ __ ] It was too dry. It came out a little bit and went back in. But if you have to physically put that thing back in yourself, >> I've never had I've never had him recover from that. Like when I have to physically get involved, I've never had the prolapse uh stay in. It always comes back out. I think it's maybe the way I'm putting it back in. Um, I think we the last guest we had on said he found a way to do it with like just his thumb. Like just even even >> I tried that. >> Yeah, I was like I couldn't do it. >> I just feel like, you know, once you get to that point where they just keep prolapsing, something is ripped and torn inside them and they can't keep their guts in. And >> good luck healing that up with something that small and delicate. It's just, you know, >> unfortunately, I think they're just done. >> For better or worse, I've kind of been the prolapse master. You know, I've had more than my fair share of prolapses and I really think one of the silver ma or magic bullets that I've come across so far are ASF pinks over mice pinks >> big time. >> Dave, have you experimented with ASF pinks? >> I haven't. Do they uh do they have a lot more hair on them or what? >> As pink as pinks. I'll show you pictures of what I started most my stuff off of. >> They weren't fully coated, but there's hair on them. You know what I mean? >> So there's roughage. >> Yeah. Pale pinks have have visible hairs on them. >> Yeah. Do they have um, you know when they go is it left like diarrhea? More like >> So they they hold majority of the food like they don't they don't [ __ ] it out like you know you for instance you see snakes that just they'll eat and just have massive shits right afterwards or like really messy diarrhea [ __ ] >> Yeah. They'll paint their cage. >> They're perfectly roped shits. Like when these ASFs are [ __ ] coming out of these condos, they're perfectly roped and they're formed. And I I'm always looking for a form [ __ ] If I can get form shits, I feel like that's a healthy [ __ ] And dude, these ASFs, you get these form perfectly looking shits. And I'm I won't go any anywhere else, man. I'm a huge fan of ASFs. But but I also feel like once you get to mice that are fully developed and they have hair, I think you're good. That's just >> Yeah. You're out of the woods at that point. >> Yeah, exactly. You go raft. You can do whatever you want at that point. But, you know, you just got to find what I feel and we've all me and Bill definitely attest to this. We feel like overall ASF's just the perfect prey. Like it's a it's a mix of the rat and the mouse input into one. I feel like, you know. >> Yeah. >> Oh, going back to, you know, like feeding trials and stuff, too. What I meant to mention earlier in case someone's going through their first like feeding trials and stuff, one of the things that I found that works when eventually you're going to have at least a couple babies in your clutch that probably aren't going to be on program right away. And uh I every year I'll I'll have a couple that they'll take, you know, six months before they want to, you know, start eating on their own. And what I found a lot of times is, you know, I'll do the assist feeding on a regular basis and then eventually what I'll do is I'll just say, I'm not giving you anything else. And they won't get any food for, I don't know, three weeks, >> starve them out, >> maybe a month. >> And that usually what that does, it gets them gets them hungry and mean at that point. And I have really good success by assist feeding for a long period and then stopping and then letting them chill out for a while and then it seems to work. Switches on. >> Dave, I think that goes back to your point where I have started offering first meals later and later. >> Yeah. >> I I've also experimented with first meal before their first shed >> and had mixed but really uh not good results with that. Even if I can get them to take a meal before they shed, >> they shut off. >> They won't eat after that. >> Yeah, >> I've gone to where I'll wait a week. >> I think I'm going to try that this year. I'm gonna wait longer. >> Um, who was it? I think Ryan, he waits a long time, I think, before he starts feeding. So, >> the guy's not in a rush for anything. Okay. [laughter] >> He's so nonchalant, but honestly, that's what makes Ryan Ryan because he has all this success. He's got the experience. >> Yeah. But he just like his rule of thumb is don't give a [ __ ] Like just don't like just whatever. Like it happens. >> It is so hard to not try to feed those things as soon as they shed. I mean it is >> they look so awesome. Um, and you just can't wait to get a prey item in there. But >> oh my god. >> Just I you know I've found that just give them a little time, starve them out a little bit. But but but you know again on the other side of the coin if they don't eat like you Dave in those first you know few offerings you know I don't let them go more than three weeks and then they they just get a suspect. >> Yep. >> Yeah. And and and I won't do anything different now after this year with that just because it's what a what a piece of mind like you know. Yeah. Again it's not eating but it ate and you got something down its stomach. Yeah. You just know maybe next week. If not [ __ ] open your mouth again. Or again I I don't even know if I'm going to even try. Like I think like Bill said, five in a row, right, Bill? Or six in a row, what do you do? Like you don't you don't even try to offer it food after it's going to be a pain in the ass. You give it >> If I have a runner, I'll just I'll sis feed it six feedings before I even try. >> Yeah. >> Offer food again. >> Let it let it shed. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Let it shed a time or two and >> Y, >> you know, >> something just turns on, dude. It's so weird. It just like all of a sudden it acts like it's been eating this entire time and it's like, what the [ __ ] Okay, I guess you're I guess you want to eat now, you know. >> Yeah, it's really cool when you open that tub and you know right away that >> this is a new animal. This is a different animal now. >> Yeah. Look look who [ __ ] cares about his life now. >> About time you showed up, [ __ ] [laughter] >> And especially if it's the one, you know, if it's the it's the one you're not letting go of, you know, it's the best. Um >> the other thing I do too is um when I'm assistfeeding, I don't just give them a single leg. I I'll usually give them two or I'll also do a mouse tail and a leg. I I double up because you think about how how big of a meal a pinky is for those newborns. Um, you know, if I'm going through the hassle of assist feeding them, I'm definitely going to get more than just one item in them at that time just to make sure they get a good healthy meal. >> Interesting. >> Yeah. >> All right, listen. We're going to cut to a commercial break, okay? So, let's let's sit tight. Um, guys, do me a favor. Hit that like button. Quick commercial break and then we'll be right back. Sorry for the interruption, folks, but a quick word from our sponsors. Green tree pythons, emerald treeboas, and plenty other aoreal snakes have been quite the popularity here at the Trap Talk Reptile Network, which brings me to today's sponsor, the Reptile Perch. Head over to the Reptile Perch.com and reptile perch on Instagram. See what type of design PVC perch is best for your boreal reptile. [music] But first and foremost, I would also check out David Brahm's green tree python availability on the website. You can also check out his Instagram just to stay current on any projects or any productions that he posts. Thank you so much, David Bronze, for your ongoing support. Looking forward to seeing what you have to show in the 2025 season. When you think about building a good community and being a leader of that community, nobody comes to mind better than Mark Hager over at Texas Condro. That's right. Make sure you head over to TXondro on Instagram and also head over to Mark's website. See what he has available green tree python wise and be ready for quite the 2025 green tree python breeding season out of Mark Hager he's a veteran in the green tree python game of the best and nicest uh breeders in the green tree python game he's been putting on the whole state of Texas for as long as I've known him so if you want to see all the amazing other condro keepers out of the state of Texas another good reason to go follow Mark Hagar over at txondros on Instagram and again head over to his website texasconcondros.com you can find all the links in the description below. Thank you so much, Mark Hagger, for supporting the trap. One of the biggest growths we have in the reptile industry today are the rare species of reptiles that aren't worked with. That's right. That's why I went ahead and partnered up again with Brian Susan over at Sundown Reptiles. Brian works with species such as Cahooa geckos, gargoyle geckos, all species of tree monitors. He works with abonia and many other cool species geckos that you can check out all on his website. Head over to sundownretiles.com. See what he has available. Brian's one of the best doing it in the reptile industry today. He's been on the show multiple times. So, make sure you check out all of Brian Susan's episodes on Trap Talk Reptile Network, but more importantly, for the highest quality of captive bred reptiles, make sure you head over to sundownrets.com and make sure you give him a follow on Instagram. Thank you again, Brian Susan over at Sundown Reptiles. One of the things I love about being a part of the reptile industry is all the learning. Okay, learning can be fun and I could prove that to you. Thank you so much to today's sponsor, Gary Scabino over at GS Reptiles. I highly recommend you head over to his YouTube channel, follow all this man's content when it comes to learning about rare species of snakes you could be keeping in the hobby and also just finding out how easy a lot of these rare species of snakes are to keep in general. So, thank you so much, Gary Scabino of GS Reptiles. Again, head over to his YouTube channel. Also, head over to his Instagram to be on top of all of his current work and be ready for a big year over at GS Reptiles. Thank you so much, Gary, for your ongoing support. I really appreciate it. All right, we're back and uh All right, next topic. You know, we're talking about feeding and I feel like one thing I learned a lot this year with the new customers I was able to gain with my condos was like helping them like understand how it's okay if it doesn't the snake doesn't eat for you right away, you know. Um, you know, definitely because, you know, depending how your room is and there's like a list of things I always have people like check before we kind of determine why the snake isn't eating. Um, I want to know what you've done over the years or what you maybe do now, Dave, where if you sell a snake to somebody and they're just worried about it eating, you know what I mean? Um, what's your what's your go-to when it comes to that? >> Yeah, I kind of alluded to it earlier. That's probably one of the biggest like hurdles with with selling these is dealing with people who have never kept them before. >> Yeah. >> And so they don't really they don't really understand the animals yet and and how they behave, the the signals to look for, >> um, that kind of stuff. So it's really kind of an uphill battle sometimes uh trying to get somebody um trained up. And you know, you would hope that you know, people would do all their homework in advance and and you know, really get ready, but um, you know, I as the seller, you have to do a lot of um hands-on help with with new customers. And um [clears throat] >> Dave, when when when do you feel like a Neo is ready to go after roughly how many meals? >> Oh gosh. I mean, I most of my stuff hatches in the early spring and I don't start selling and releasing until August, September time frame. So, you know, what 20 plus meals in them, I would say, >> like five five months in, six months. >> But even then, you know, it's so frustrating because I'll I'll have animals that are absolutely bulletproof leaving here and you know how it is. they, you know, something happens in shipping or >> they just don't like the new environment or whatever and and they shut down and they decide they don't want to eat right away. >> And it's it's frustrating because, you know, you want to have a good reputation as a seller. >> Yeah. >> And you don't want people thinking that you're just sending stuff out the door that isn't, you know, good to go and and that sort of thing. So, >> um, you really have to do a lot of handholding for a while. Here's the thing about releasing Neos after 20 meals is they've got good reserve on them. So in other words, they can go months without eating if it takes them that long to get established. >> And also they're out of that prolapse, what I call the prolapse period, you know, after 10 12 meals. >> You know, >> I I I you know, it's only happened to me one time where I've sold somebody an animal and it's prolapsed in their care. [snorts] >> And I think a lot of that is because like you, I release them so late. >> Yeah. Compared to a lot of other >> anybody that that knows what they're looking at too can even look at a picture of a snake that's that old and be like yeah that snake's that snake's you know eating it's tell robust >> y >> um >> especially you know what I usually do is you know I'll look in you know if someone says it's not eating the first thing I'm going to do is is find out okay um what I I send a PDF out with every animal that I sell that outlines how I recommend that you keep it starting out and once you get a feel for it and it gets established in your home, then you can veer off and do whatever you want. But as far as like me being the person providing this animal to you, I want you to follow my instructions because I know that this is how I raise the animal >> and I'm trying to increase your chances of success. So follow what I'm doing at least to start. >> Yeah. >> And I try to put it in a nice PDF that outlines everything. And um and then I what I've also done is I've created some videos that you know sometimes these animals what they'll do is they'll go from sight feeding to need to be teased again. >> Sure. >> And if you've never done it before, >> you know, you have no idea what's the proper technique and it's all technique with these guys as you guys know. >> Yeah. And uh I tried to put some nice videos together showing that this is the proper way to do it and to point out the things that you shouldn't be doing that will will probably cause the animal to stress out and not eat. >> The the other thing Dave I was going to say is I don't know if uh if you establish with chick down, but I've had a couple of people that have had uh trouble with them, you know, feeding when they get them. Just give it a chick down. You know, send a chick down one or two times. That usually will, you know, will kick it in right away. Yep. Yeah. I do all that, too. >> Yeah. And then also too, you know, kind of going back to people thinking how like fragile these things are. I I had one guy um who was like, "Yeah, it just won't eat." Like it'll it'll wrap, but then it'll like it'll drop and then, you know, I feel like, you know, the way you position the animal that the prey item to the snake really matters first and foremost. Like picking up by the tail and dangling it in front of it, like it's >> not always going to be the move. I mean, some of them will eat like that, but if you're having if you're having issues, it's because there's just certain things you just got to do. Like you say, Dave, like that PDF is probably crucial, even though sometimes people just aren't reading it and they [ __ ] >> Yeah. [laughter] >> But but also like the video that um I want to put up right now is like realizing like, dude, you you got to bump these [ __ ] sometimes. Like you almost got to let them know like who's boss and get them pissed a little bit, you know? But usually, you know, there's a happy medium to it. And I'm glad you put that video out because I was able to send that to a few customers and they're like, "Oh, wow." Like, you could go at him like that. I'm like, "Yeah." >> Yeah. You have to be shy. Like, if it's being shy with you, let him know it's [ __ ] it's game time and you need to eat. And so, you know, that's kind of uh what you exampled here in this video. And um >> I was actually, dude, a handful of people I sent this video to that's helped them out. >> Oh, good. I'm glad. Good. >> And what's crazy is they didn't even need to they didn't even need to do all this. like they just had to like dude bump the [ __ ] prey item to its goddamn face if you need to let it know and you know it turns them on a little bit. You know what I mean? >> Well, the other thing, you know, the other thing that's so important is is like like you said, MJ, dangling it by the tail, you know, if you get a midbody strike, it's 99% of the time they're going to drop that, >> right? >> Also, also soaking wet, like the dripping, it's like, dude, bat dry that [ __ ] thing. Like, I get it. We I recommend hot is good, but I bat dry mine. I think you do too, right Dave? Don't you don't you b back drop a little bit? Like it's not >> I thaw everything out in in you know warm water and then I just give it a quick roll on paper towel before I present it to the animal. >> Not simple. >> Yeah. >> And and are you did you use a lot of chick down with a lot of the first uh offers on yours? >> I do on everything right out of the gate. >> Yeah. >> Same. Same. Yeah. First two meals down. >> Yep. >> Wow. Okay. And so what's your what's been your success with uh having females going back to back? Like do do you have girls that go back toback years for you, Dave? And and has that worked out for you? >> I've done it uh a few times and I didn't have any issues. I think as long as the the girl has good weight and good body condition um and she recovers quickly from the first clutch, then you're probably okay to try again this upcoming season. That's how I feel about it. >> I generally don't do that, though. I I usually give them a year off. uh and then you know hit them again eventually. My thought on that is it's going to catch up to you eventually because I don't believe they do that in the wild. You know they probably breed much less frequently than we do it and >> Yeah. Well, they don't have the food they don't have the food intake in the water. >> No. And it's really taxing on them and you know I if you have enough animals and you can wait I I prefer to do that. >> Well I I would say that I do backto back more than not. >> Do you? Yeah. your girl your girls back bounce back great, Bill. And I've noticed that with my girls this year. So, I'm like, you know, if they look [ __ ] great, they got the body condition and that head meets right there. I mean >> I mean, it all comes down to that, doesn't it? I mean, as long as body condition is there, they should be fine. >> And if they want to go, they'll go. Like, if you know, it kind of determines on that female, you know, if she wants to re receive that male and and go into [ __ ] cycle, you know, if she can, she will. Um, but yeah, Bill, you've you've not had any I mean, I think Biscuit was the only one that you stopped after four years in a row, right? >> Yeah, I I think I bred her three years in a row. I think that's the most I've ever gone three back to back to back. >> Um, but yeah, more times than not, they're they're going back to back. >> Yeah. >> Back to back with a with a year off in between. >> Yeah. Two two years then a year off and then >> and then and then again. >> Yeah. How how are you bouncing your females back? Um Dave, walk us through like if she lays a clutch and then she's hungry, like how how long are you waiting after she lays, are you offering her? And what size meal uh are you giving her for how long? If you could kind of walk us through that. >> Yeah, generally the way I do it is once they've laid um [clears throat] soon as they're done laying, excuse me, I give them a really good soak. I'll uh I'll put them in water for half a day or whatever just to make sure they get fully hydrated again. >> Yep. >> Um and then put them back in the cage. And a lot of times what I'll do is I'll just watch them, you know, if they right away are in a hunting posture and looking like they want to eat, I'll feed them. If they're not and they want to wait until they shed and that kind of thing, then I'll wait it out. It's just, you know, I really play animal by animal and and see how they are. Um, generally not in a huge rush. You know, you got to figure we're taking the maternal incubation out of the picture. Uh, and so, you know, they can go for quite a while without food after they lay that clutch of eggs. So, I don't sweat it. >> Are you, are you mice or rat feeder for your adult females? >> I do all mice. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Okay. I'm glad you brought that up because it, you know, it's crazy. We've had so many people on the show that just do mice. Um, but you're, for instance, like if you got a female that's eating just mice, a typical meal is what for her? uh an adult, a jumbo, like what do you what do you >> I generally stay away from the jumbos just because they're like really obese old mice. >> Yeah. >> And I go for the next size down where there's just still a little bit of leanness to them and they're not super fat. >> And um, yeah, I just feed them those. I generally, you know, just a single one. Uh >> just one every two weeks, every week. How how often are you feeding them? >> Uh, you mean after they've laid a clutch of eggs or in general? >> Yeah. So let's say she's back to her normal routine. like what's routine >> probably um well it it's all depending on what time of the year it is and how I'm trying to cycle them um, but you know, for like maintenance feeding probably every couple weeks um, and then when I'm gearing up for the breeding season I cut off food for several months >> in in summer right or when do you stop when when's the cut off date for food for you? >> Yeah I I stop in end of June so it's like July, August, September I do very little feeding. >> Okay. Little to none. Little to none feed. >> Little to none. Yep. And um >> and then uh then after that, I'll start hitting them pretty heavy. Um smaller meals and I'll do it, you know, uh every I don't know, three to five days. I'll give them the meal >> and then you watch it really close though. I because I don't want to get them super loaded so that you know you're you're risking other issues. So, I'll hit them a few times and then if they need to go to the bathroom, I'll make sure that happens either with a rain chamber or I'll soak them. Um, and I I do that quite regularly when I'm going through this process just to make sure that they're cleaning out as often as they should be. >> I can't imagine I can't imagine the mice aren't they're probably not that huge of shits, right? They're probably the shits are pretty small now. >> No, I mean it's they're fulls size mice. They're they're decent, you know, decent size. And the thing is they back up. You know, you get three or four meals in them, then you know, you got something that needs to get out of there. >> Um, so that's how I do it. And then um, yeah, >> when is the male involved during this feeding? Like so once you're once you're beefing up the meals, is the pairing already happening or you beef them up first and then you pair? >> No, I I pair and do the the feeding all kind of together. It's the way I do it. Um, >> start feeding them and then put the males in right away. >> Yeah. So once I get out of that summer fast, I'll I'll get, you know, a few meals into them for sure before I've paired them up. >> Got it. >> And then uh then I'll put everybody together and kind of see how everything's going. Uh, generally speaking, if it's going to be successful, they're locking up almost immediately when you put them together. >> Yeah. >> And then um, and if they're not, after several days, I'll separate them and then feed her again. >> And then the males I feed very, very sparingly. It's just based on how their body condition looks and you know, does he look like he could use a meal type thing. >> Yeah. Well, I man, it's crazy because that's so important having making sure those males are like at least steadily having something in their stomach because they'll get to the point of breeding where they don't want nothing to do with food like at all. And if they're not that big of a snake, you see it wear them out pretty quick. Like >> Yeah. Because they can be pretty active too during this during the >> Yeah. All they want to do is bone. all they want to do like I had my Mark Hager snake my calico like he was he was on the younger side um wasn't that big but god damn dude like all he wanted to do was be with females and um >> so I was like holy >> I feel lucky none of my males like to go on hunger strikes which is I think a bonus >> yeah very few of mine do as well and I I will feed my males during the breeding season um smaller less frequently but I'm kind of like MJ I like to keep a little substance little nutrition in them you know when they're going especially if they're breeding two female Yeah, >> it's funny. You know, we've mentioned this so many times about food cycling. You know, you ask 10 breeders how they food cycle, you get 12 different 12 different answers. >> Yeah. >> Um, you know, I food cycle differently than Dave does and a lot differently than Marshall does,

But it still works. Yeah. Isn't that funny? Yeah.

I think one thing that I've noticed too, I don't know if this is right or wrong, if like the fasting is the necessary component. I'm not sure that it is. Um, I just, you know, you see the females once you reach that time of year that you know that they're trying to build follicles. They're ravenous, you know, like you walk by the cage and they're ready to eat you. Yeah. Just know naturally they act like that. But I think a first-time female, it's important. I think like I feel like I feel like they become experts at knowing what time of year it is and they're like, "I'm ready to go no matter what you're doing to me feeding wise." But to like trigger a female to understand like you should be cycling right now. I feel like sometimes that food cycling is important because you know when you when you have a female that's just so used to getting fed, sometimes they don't give a [ __ ] about breeding. All they want to do is. Absolutely, you know, she's got not gonna want to breed. I guess what I'm trying to say is that the fasting component might not be as necessary, but I do think the increased feeding is something, some sort of change. The data is. I'll just tell you this, my success rate went through the roof. When I started food cycling, I always temperature and light cycled. When I started food cycling these things, my production rate went through the roof. Yeah. And that's how I've done it all along. I've done food cycling, but I also do a temp cycle along with it, too. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, it's the the fast is definitely not required because I just started food cycling and giving them off for the first time last year ever. Um, now, you had great results when you did it. I did. Yeah. And I'm doing it again this year, but I'm But, you know, who knows? I'm not saying I couldn't have had better results had I been doing it from the beginning, [clears throat] but I I would agree with with with Dave that it's not, you know, you don't have to do it. It just it helps. It's another thing you can do. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, even the signs that we see help us, like, you know, hello, like rain. We all know when it rains, we got that storm front. That's that's an indicator. That's all we're trying to do for these [ __ ] is give them indicators. Shit's about to go down. And and again, weather is a factor, but I feel like nothing's more of a factor than food, man. Food is the number one key indicator to get these [ __ ] things to go. And and and mainly with emeralds, you know, like people struggle with emeralds, but dude, there's there's a technique I learned from Keith McPe where you get these you get the right amount of food with them with the locks and that they're they're gonna go. You know what I mean? Yeah, food's king. Yeah, for reals.

I I I highly agree. Um, you know, with that being said, Dave, like where do you feel like like where do you get the most success with a first-time male? Like what's the age? Um, because it's all over the place. I feel like you got some people like me who get some luck with some young ones. Um, but some people lock like years. Like I my prize male who's six years old, not six, I'm sorry, he's he's four years old, hasn't locked [ __ ] once for me. You know what I mean? Um, but that's happened. Bill's had stories of that happening with some of his prize males. Yeah. Yeah. I had a male that didn't breed until I think he was six or seven years old. Son of a [ __ ]. Just wouldn't know with anybody and finally decided he was going to breed. Freight train wouldn't even come close to a female till he was five and then I can't keep him off of him. Yeah. I mean, he's just unbelievable. But he had to be five, you know. And I've had others that were two. Marshall's had him younger than that. [snorts]

Yeah. You know, I often wondered like, you know, how in the past a lot of people really struggled breeding these things and I sometimes I just wonder it's because their collection was probably too small and you didn't have enough males and if you didn't have the right compatibility or whatever it is that they have going on that you're just going to struggle and never get anything from them because if you've got a large enough collection, you know that there's some males that they'll breed a rope. It doesn't matter. Um, and then you have some that just, you know, they'll take six, seven years before they decide they want to breed anything. And then some of them just never get on program. So if you're dealing with a small collection, you've got a couple duds in there, you're going to be thinking that condro are super hard to breed. That what a good point because when you have the numbers, you figure [ __ ] out. Like you because you start seeing things that do want to go versus the stuff that isn't going for you and you get you got other things that just are here on Earth to breed. Um, and so when you have five animals, um, you know, and you're and you're depending on two pairings, you can't really sum up this experience off that amount of animals. Uh, because, and that goes for anything, ball pythons, anything. Like, if you only have so many, like, nothing's going to guarantee healthy breeding animals. It's just like humans. Like, not every human's even meant to have kids. So, it's like you're you're going up against a lot with the less amount of numbers on you, you know? Yeah. Yep. Yeah.

I don't know. I I've got this one male that I I wanted to pair him with a specific female so bad for the longest time and could never get anything um to go between them. And the thing is I can stick him with another female and they'll lock up immediately and I can take a different male and pair him up with that female, the original female, and they'll lock up immediately. So, there's like this weird like compatibility thing that some of these guys have that I I don't know how or what it is that they cue in on where they're like, "Nope, we're not we're not going to do anything." You know? Yeah.

I mean, how many times have you seen a first-time pairing go down and both snakes are running for the hills or just kind of seem like not interested, but then that next day they're cuddling and they're they're doing it like, do you feel like Very seldom for me? Yeah. Me, too. Okay. It happens. I have it happen, you know, each year that seems to happen. I've got at least one or two pairings where it looks like they're not interested right away, but then like you said, like the next day I'll come in early in the morning, I'll see them locked up. But by and large, uh, most of them when you put them together, they're locking up within that hour or so. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

You know, I I I always get back to the basics and when people are having trouble pairing animals, my first question is, well, are you sure it's a male and a female? [laughter] Yeah, good point. The these things are not the easiest thing to sex. Not always. No. And if you're always going by an animal that you bought, whether it's a breeder or not, you know, it says it's male or female, you know, you never really know an animal's a female until she's on eggs, right? You know, the So, you know, again, you got to get back to the basics. Are you sure you have a male and a female? You know, that's number one. Yeah. They keep wrapping each other aggressively, I would probably, you know, consider probing or something. I don't know. But, you know, or or they just destroy the cage and they're just on completely opposite ends and one's grounded and one's on the opposite side of the cage, you know, right? Again, I had some first-time females that went for me do that and I was kind of like, whoa [ __ ] I better keep an eye. and then they kind of just settle down because I don't again they were first- timerrs. Um but again there's also moments like you're saying Bill where if it if it if they don't settle down and it's been a couple days you you got to figure that out. You know. You just you you always have to question until you know. Yeah. Yeah.

Um remind me Dave how many adult females you have that could breed. You said 10, right? No. Well that's how many pairings I have going this year. Um, I don't know the total collection. I think I have somewhere near 50 animals total with babies. But yeah, that's like grow outs and and everything too. Um, I don't know. I probably have at least 20 adults. Yeah, I don't know. I I definitely have at least 20 adults. Um, but as far as like females go, I think I have 15 or so. I'm just guessing.

What's the most you think you can handle, Dave? like like the most like in your head if the the Condor gods were like Dave we'll give you however many you want dude. Babies. Yes. Like what what do you think what do you think your cut off is? Like the amount of babies you are like okay I'm good here. I don't want any more than this. Yeah. I mean, gosh, I can't imagine having more than, you know, 80 babies to deal with at one time to be honest with you right now to try and like do everything else and and then also all that it's it's time consuming. All at once. Yes. But I think that if you do it like Bill spread out, I think it's very feasible. Yeah. Yeah. Sure. That's where it worked out in your favor, you would say, right, Bill? Like you were able to get all these spread out throughout the whole year. Yeah. nine clutches. Uh uh seven in season, two offseason. Uh and it's worked out great. I I'm kind of like Dave. Hundred would be pushing, you know, the max that I would would want.

I mean, that that's a lot. You got to remember you you guys do this full-time, too. Yeah. Right. Right. I mean, for sure. As a as a hobby, a hundred. No way. Yes. Yeah. Absolutely. If you have if you have a if you have a life outside of your snake room. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Well, I don't. So, [laughter] I don't either. Mind you, I'm very happy. I love this [ __ ]. So, um yeah. I don't know, man. I I don't know. I I don't know how many people at some point are going to going to get to the uh point of production where they're just blasting out [ __ ] 20 clutches a year. Do you think we'll ever get to that point? Do you think we'll ever have someone who's going to be doubling what Bill's doing? You know, Socrates this year. [laughter] MJ, that's what you told me three years ago. Yeah, it's he wanted to go I think he wanted to go for 20 clutches. 20 clutches. I don't think it's gonna happen. I love you, Socrates, but that's quite the feat, man. You need a lot of. It's a lot, bro. It's a lot. So, who knows, though. I mean, I know he's going for it, but yeah. And I know he doesn't do this full time, so I don't know how the [ __ ] that's going to work out for him. I don't. Yeah, five Alex Warren. That's all I know. [laughter]

Um, yeah. I don't know. So, with everything being said, as far as the growth happening, um, over the next couple years, where do you see things headed uh, in the Condro game, Dave? Do do you think we are this is going to open up a little bit and we're going to have more successful breeders or do you feel like it's always going to kind of stay steady the way it is now? Like, where do you think things are heading in the next few years? I mean, I I think it's going to keep improving for sure. Um, you know, the information that's available now compared to what was out there 10, 15 years ago is entirely different. And, um, you know, people getting into it now have never been, um, you know, they're the luckiest people getting in the game really because a lot of the stuff's been worked out and and it's not that difficult to breed these anymore. Um, the the real hang-up is, you know, dealing with what happens after you actually hatch the clutch, you know, right? It's like you got to get babies established, which isn't easy. Uh, it's time consuming. And then, you know, selling to people and doing the afterale support, I think is, you know, a lot of people are probably not going to do very well when it comes to that. And you're just not going to have the same, you know, number of people doing this as you would, you know, obviously like ball pythons or whatever. I definitely think it's going to continue to grow.

Well, what one one thing you left out, Dave, was you know, the incubation of these things. Oh, that too. Yeah. You know, it's um you know, it's pretty it's pretty common if you if you have fertile ball python eggs that you know, 99% of those are going to go the distance. That's not the case with green trees. Even. That's right. Even in the best hands, in the best incubation box with the most experience, you know, tagged on top of people that don't have that much experience and don't have their boxes dialed in and their incubators dialed in. A lot of these clutches are, you know, they're going to fail. They're going to fail. Um, so, you know, that that that's another layer of why there's not 40,000 of these things posted on Morph Market. That's a good point. So.

Dave, what are you seeing from like from the perch from the business side of it? Are you seeing it has are you getting more and more uh more and more people hitting you up for perches and caging and Yeah. How's that how's that side of things looking as like just a a barometer on where the market is in general? Yeah, that's that it's really interesting because it is a good barometer on the market because um I sell to a lot of people thankfully and um you know you can definitely see where people are are transitioning from keeping other things and getting into green trees. Um it's been growing every year which is great. Um so yeah, it's so far the trajectory has been in a positive direction. I hope it continues to go that way.

Yeah. And so I was gonna ask you Dave, um, god dang it, man. Marshall [ __ ] it all up. I had this really awesome topic and Marshall just completely ruined it, dude. Sorry. Why does Marshall always get the blame for your blank out? [laughter] Easy target. Um, all right, Marshall. Yeah, bring bring another topic in now, Marshall. Mr. Awesome. So So what So are you doing do you have the uh just this is going to be another another caging business question, but are you are you you have the 3D printer and the CNC or whatever you all that stuff's in your house? Do you have a workshop somewhere or or how are you doing it? Yeah, it's all in my basement. So yeah, I've got a CNC. I've got um I think seven or eight 3D printers. Um all that stuff. Yep. And is your stuff made to or you making it to order or you do you keep Okay. Yeah. I have to do it that way because I have so many different things that I make and it's so random what people order. Yeah. That it's just no way I could keep inventory on everything. So I just make it as. I'll say from personal experience, your turnaround time is amazing. Yeah. Thank you. I try. Not everybody's happy, but I try. I had at least five people who were like, you know, I'm still waiting on my David Perch, my David Brahms perch. And I was like, well, you knew this animal was coming to you this week. When did you order it? I ordered it yesterday. What the [ __ ] [laughter] So, it's not David. Okay. You just ordered it. Um, yeah. I'm not Amazon Prime. Sorry. What the [ __ ] [laughter] These aren't These aren't coming from China. These are homemade. Okay, buddy. USA spoil. Um, no.

But, okay. So, another topic I want to mention, Dave, is again, you know, God bless the excitement with some of these new keepers, but you know, you you you tell them your uh, you know, recommendation on what you should be keeping it in after they buy this animal from you, but they just feel like, it needs to go into a 2 by 2. [ __ ] it. You know, um, where do you feel like you're explaining the whole enclosure side of things to your customers to where it's working out? like, you know, are you do you recommend first and foremost if they're buying an animal from you, they should be putting it in the exact same size that they're that the animal's in now, or do you let them go with something different? Like, how are you like um coaching them when it comes to the enclosure side when they're just buying the animal? Yeah, I I just keep it super simple. It's like if you have a rack, six quart tub, keep it in that until you you get it and it's eating and doing everything that it's supposed to do. And then if you want to bump it up to another size gauge, you can after that point. But um so yeah, six quart tub or um I offer that tranquility base uh neonate enclosure. It's a 16 quarten. It's a little bit bigger. Um but it works great for for established babies. So uh that's what I I push people towards. Um I just find that, you know, simplicity is where it's at. Yeah. And you know, I think everybody just wants to recreate a rainforest in their in their living room. And they just need to realize that you have to be patient. You can't do that right away. And uh you're you're going to be much happier if you just keep it in a sterile tub and mirror what the breeder has done up until that point until you feel really comfortable with the animal and the animals thriving in your care. That's how I feel about it. And then and then you can kill it any way you want. Exactly. Yeah. Eat your poison. [laughter] Yeah.

Um Dave, I we I you've helped me a lot, especially with my caging here with the perches I've gotten from you, but I keep thinking more and more um and what you think about this about maybe these adult condos benefiting from something more than just two perches. Um I I don't know like I I've seen a big difference and I remember I had a Gravid Emerald last year and you sent me some more perches to input in it and man it was a whole difference. Like I just saw the way she was laying across and I felt like it was a huge benefit. But I'm like man if it's if it's a benefit of the emerald I'm wondering how much a condro could maybe a gravid condro at that like fully ovulated how much they could possibly benefit off another perch next to the top one or even the bottom one or or even going ballistic with purchase. I don't know but I I feel like not not that it's wrong just to go with two perches but I think they could benefit from more than one per or more than two. Yeah. I think the more the better. um it's not going to hurt anything by having a lot of extra perches in there. It's just people generally like to not spend as much money, you know, and and just keep it simple. But, um more perches, you know, PVC perches, great. You can do the branch extensions. Those help a lot, too. They'll um distribute their weight on those and the perch. And I agree with you that um you know, I bet if you put a hide in your cage, your your partners would all be in the hides all the time. Yeah. Ryan Young said that. Ryan's like, "You know, if you put cork if you put corkwood like what like what tree monitors hide in, like if you put that [ __ ] in the enclosure, I guarantee the the uh condra will wedge itself inside that hole and just want to hide." Yep. I agree.

Well, I'll just add my two cents. Stephen and Ashley bought some caging down to me, MJ, at at my last party. Yes. And one of the cages included an elevated perch. I condro had nothing to do with it. [laughter] An elevated perch? You mean like a. Up top? Like there was like a it was like a hide a hide into the ice. Oh, elevated hide. Like an upside down hide box that slides in. Holy smoke. Elevated hide. It slides right in. It looks like it would be perfect. And I think I think for carpet pythons it would be. Listen one experience. Okay. One out of one had nothing to do with it. Um so that I wonder I wonder how a gravid condro female would would like it. Um because I forgot. You think I would put a gravidoc condro in an elevated hide? You're fine. Doesn't it slide out though? Like wouldn't it just be able to slide out with it? Like Yeah, it could slide out, but you you have no idea when she's going to lay and she's probably going to throw that tail outside of that high. Right out. Right out the little door body tail hanging out. Look like tic tacs just falling. [laughter] So just you know that's just my experience. One one experience. Yeah. You're just counting the the value of the baby of each egg. 6,000 700. Right in the water bowl. Right in the water bowl. Two points. Two points. Two points.

Um Oh, yeah. So Dave, your your nesting process, you go you put them in a in a rack system, correct? Or or do you just let them lay right there in their camro tub? No, the way I do it is I I use a six quart tub with the lid that it comes with and I cut like a I don't know inch and a half uh hole two inch hole on one end of the the lid. And I just fill it with dry spagnum and I just put it in one back corner of the uh the enclosure. And they all go into that like clockwork and lay their eggs. Six cord. Yep. That shows how small females are. That's how small. Yeah. And that's crazy. I don't think a lot of mine would even fit in a six. Fit. Yeah. Same. Yeah. Yeah. All those pictures that you see the condro on eggs in my Instagram and stuff, that's all in a six court tub. Wow. Oh, wow. Yeah.

Wow. It's interesting. Um and and and is it kind of like clockwork when it comes to the the time they lay these females for you? Like is it usually around that day 42 40 mark after ovulation or like what are is it all over the place as far as the day they're laying? No, they're they're pretty consistent. The usually the way that I I monitor it is I wait for that uh pre-lay shed and almost to the day every one of them lays about 16 days post prelay shed, right? Which is in effect like about day 42. Yeah. I think so. Yeah. Yeah. I had a girl go 62 days post ovulation last year. Holy mackerel. Good eggs made it, right? Oh, they were perfect. Did the Okay, I gotta ask you, Bill. Since they were that late being laid, did they still take 50 something days to hatch or were they did they the gap? Same same. That's interesting. That's interesting. Yeah, you would think they would maybe pip sooner because how long they were in the mom for? Yeah, but I guess the time that the ticker doesn't take until they come out. That's when. I think that's right. At least in this case it was. Damn, dude. 62 days. That's That's the longest. I talked to Patrick. I talked to Mark. I think Mark had one girl go 60 days post ovulation and like you know there's no guesswork like when you see an ovulation I mean you know you know start the start start the calendar right? Yeah. You know there there was no mistaking this wasn't you know this was 62 days. Jeez. Were you soaking her a lot, Bill? Like were you worried? Like what were you doing? I was worried. I wasn't soaking her because I was afraid you know to that she'd lay in a soak. Um, but yeah, [ __ ] yeah. I was worried. [laughter] Wow.

You ever had any kind of egg bounding situation with any of your females at all, Dave? Knock on wood, no, I haven't. Um, I uh I do soak them right before they lay. So, another another thing to give props to Bill about. I wasn't shy about soaking this this year at all. Like, if uh I think I soak the female twice. Yeah. I like two big soaks. Yeah. And dude, I every time I caught them drinking, they're they're chugging water. So I'm like, [ __ ] a dude. And they all bounce back great after the whole soak thing. So not before and after soaking. Crucial. Crucial. It is. Yeah. Yeah. I I like to get two soaks in before they lay, like maybe one during their pre uh or post ovulation shed and then once after that. And then I'm like Dave. I like to really get a good soak after they lay. Yep. Yeah. Because that those two weeks from what I've noticed um or even building up to the two weeks after that pre-lay shed, dude, they don't they don't take make it a point to go drink the water. Like I don't I don't ever see them. They're not going to leave that heat. No. Yeah. They just stay like they're not moving. And so, you know, if you're not helping at all, they're dude, they're going to dehydrate and and so and I think that has an huge impact on their recovery. Um how they lay the eggs, all sorts of [ __ ] that I feel like is vital, bro. So, very vital. I think it's vital. I mean, I know people have success without soaking, but I'm telling you, I think it's vital to soak them. Yeah. I think you're spinning the roulette wheel by not soaking them, to be honest with you. To each their own. Everyone has their way, but god damn it, soaking for me is the way for sure, 110%.

All right, wrap-up topic time of the episode. I'll go first and then we'll hit Bill or Marshall. Um, but you know, for anyone out there, Dave, because you know, you you brought up a good point earlier in the episode. You know, people come into this and, you know, they want to make amazing stuff, but they also think it's going to take $20,000 to get a pair. And and and there's ways around this. Like, there's, you know, you don't you don't need to be a rich man to get into the green tree python game, you know, like there there's ways around this. So, for someone out there who's wondering the best way to start off getting into the green tree python game and maybe doesn't come with a ton of money, you know, like, well, how do you how do you recommend someone coming into this without having to worry about spending so much, you know? Yeah, I think it's key to try and link up with um some breeders that um have a good reputation in the community. Yeah. and and just start kind of, you know, feeling them out early on and and letting them know that you're interested and and find out what kind of stuff they're dealing with and just have a conversation, you know, and find out what their budget's like and and will you'll be producing anything that kind of falls in that range and and um and then I think you're you're going to be much more successful versus just going on Morph Market and buying some random thing that's, you know, 450 bucks, you know.

And Bill, I'm sure you've had a lot of people maybe come and almost try to budget with you and stuff like that and and do you help like do you help explain at all like how to maybe go about purchasing um some of these animals because I feel like some of these people buy it off a little bit more than they could chew and it's like and I I've seen it like I saw a guy do a payment plan with me. He he had payment plan like 17 other people and I'm like god damn bro like hope everything's going okay with your life where this isn't gonna you know something doesn't get [ __ ] up but what do you do? I I I think like Dave said, you know, number one that I try to feel out with people is what's your price point? Yeah. You know, what's your experience level and what's your price point? Um, you know, whether it's good or bad, I think it's good is, you know, these things take a long time for me to establish once they even hatch. So, people have a lot of time to really plan, you know, and decide and save their money or make their payment plan or whatever. Um but you know for the most part the people I'm dealing with you know it's 12 month or longer um period. Yeah. Where so they you know they got plenty of time to save if it's in their budget. And I I really try to stress that to people. You know what's your price point? Don't don't go out of your budget. Don't you know. Yeah. Risk your marriage over this damn snake. And you know so I I really try to find out what people's price point is and what their timeline is and [ __ ] I I've held animals for two years, you know, especially the stuff that goes to Europe. Um, yeah. It's crazy how that happens. I have a guy who gave me a deposit and I'm like, "Is animals ready?" And he's just not getting back to me. And I'm like, "Dude, like, [laughter] all right." Like, [ __ ] right on. I guess I'll hold on to it. No choice. But, dude, I I I've made tens of thousands of dollars on people that have made deposits and don't don't follow through. I mean, that's wild. But it's true. It's almost like you don't All right, I guess you didn't really think this thoroughly and we don't know where that person went or. Whatever. Like there's so many different stories out there. It's just for me it's like why be in a rush to spend money when you have no idea really what the [ __ ] this is meant for you or not. Like you know um but again like I feel like that's a smart thing, Bill, when you have someone who has 12 months to really think about this and and determine or plan for it. That's great. But there's no timeline. I feel like there's no there's no there's no need to be like this right now. You know, I always do tell people that, you know, if if now is not the right time, fine. I'll I'll hold your deposit until the time is right. You know, um so that and that's worked out too where it wasn't, you know, when it came time to cut nuts and send the money. They weren't ready. I said, "All right, I'll keep your deposit and next year, you know, let me know when you're ready. The money will always be there." Yeah. Yep.

All right, well, who wants to go next, Bill or Marshall? wrap-up topic of the night. Well, I'll I'll ask Dave, and Dave, I don't know if I've ever asked you this question. Who Who were your mentors in this game early? I know you've been doing it a long time, but who who walked you through this? And how how did you, you know, kind of get learn the knowledge that you have? I mean, I think like everybody else and you guys, it's just an obsession, right? And I spent a lot of time reading the forums and and um just researching as much as I could and you know I I've also kept animals my whole life, reptiles my whole life. So it's just something that I really enjoy and it kind of comes naturally I guess. But as like far as mentors go I mean I I'd be more than happy to say Gary was definitely a mentor for me. Um, I got one of my first animals from him and um, you know, and and all you guys, you know, I just I watch what everybody's doing all the time and I pick up little tricks and and tips here and there uh, just by, you know, being in the background watching what everybody's doing. Exactly. Yeah. Learn learn from other people's successes and failures, right? Yeah. Yep. Yeah.

All right, Marshall, what you got, bro? Send us home. What is the number one selling item on your website? Oh, definitely the the colored PVC purchase for sure. Colored PVC purchase like for bigger cages or for. Yeah, the custom the custom colored perches that I. I've got a room full of them. I love them. I got a bunch of brown ones behind me. Love them. Okay. Hot item. What about condro wise? I'm I'm curious. What's the What's the number one soughtafter uh like snake people are looking for when they hit you up, Dave? Is it your pure Is it your pure monory stuff or. It's It's the pure manquaria, but also the the Prada mixed lineage stuff that I have. [snorts] You have a weight list or no? No. You know what? I did a weight list for the first time this last year, and I'm never doing it again. [laughter] Never again. Let me ask you this. Yeah. on your weight list that you were had totally unsuccess with. Were you requiring a deposit to be on the wait list? I didn't. No, I didn't want to be responsible for anybody's money uh until I felt like things were ready to go. It's non-refundable. As long as you make it clear that this is a non-refundable and it rolls over to whatever it is I do have, then dude, those [ __ ] are going to stick around. I'll tell you that right now. True. and and and if dude I would put a thousand dollar deposit for your animals all day every day and I know a lot of other people would too. So. Yeah, I just found that you know for my own peace of mind um it is yeah. I would rather just kind of like get everything hatched out, get it established to the point where I'm like, okay, I'm comfortable to to start letting stuff go and then kind of put the word out that I have things available versus letting people jump on early and then just, you know, I don't know. I just didn't enjoy it. I'll tell you what, the pressure is something else. You do feel that a little bit for sure. Yeah. Plus, plus you you sold out without doing it. Yeah. You don't need to, right? Right. Yeah. So, you don't have to. I think the thing with me that the pressure comes from, okay, so, you know, I've got this clutch reserved by a bunch of different people now and it's like, well, what happens if I lose a couple animals in the process of getting them established? Yeah. And then I just didn't want to have to deal with any of that, you know, and I would rather just get to the point where I'm like, "Okay, I've got all these animals that I've established and nobody knows, you know, what I went through to get here and uh this is what I have available and if you want it, you can grab it." You know, I think I think there's um advantages and disadvantages to doing both. I think in the long in the long run um you know you'll figure out what's what's best for you and for your customers. Um so I I think there's advantages and disadvantages to doing a weight list. Yep. Yep. Yeah. It's just not for me. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, you know, again going back to like, you know, do people really know what we do to get to the point where we could sell an animal? It's a [ __ ] lot, dude. It's a lot. And and and it's just not a hand-me-down thing. Yeah. You know, you get success with a clutch maybe in your first couple years, but to get to the point of consistently getting clutches and getting babies where you could sell them, you got you got to put in a lot of work to get to that point. It's it's not easy. And the stressful nights, like if we add up everything, shipping animals, all the stress we deal with, dude, it's not a [ __ ] walk in the park. And it's definitely not easy to do it consistently. No, you got to be you just got to be built for it. You know what I mean? And and mind you, it it's not for everybody, but I don't know a better life. I really don't. This is [ __ ] amazing. So, yeah, that's just coming from the the facts, but I wouldn't I wouldn't trade it for anything. It's awesome. No, man. This episode was awesome, man. Two hours went by too quick, Dave. Obviously, this won't be your last episode. You're you're you're someone who's always welcome back to Trap Talk. Well, thanks for having me. Yeah, man. Why don't you just drop where people could follow you real quick? Even though all the links are in the description below and I shout you out every week, why don't you just, you know, let people know where people can contact you and, you know, all that good stuff. Yeah, pretty easy to get a hold of. Uh, the reptile perch.com is my website where you can buy stuff and, uh, also Instagram and Facebook, reptile perch, and I'm pretty active in all the major groups, too. So, um, if you want to ping me or hit me up for something, feel free to reach out. Fulltime at it, man. That's a that's an awesome thing to say. And again, Dave, thanks for everything. Uh, looking forward to have you back. But guys, you can find all the links to Dave's plugs in the description below. But give it up. It's a wrap for David Braum as a reptile purse. Ladies and gentlemen, Dave, you're the best. Thanks, guys. Thanks, Dave. Everybody, happy Thanksgiving. Happy Thanksgiving. Happy Thanksgiving, Dave. Thank you so much, man. Have a good night. Yeah. Yeah. Take it easy, guys. All right. Peace. See you. What a guy. Good episode, man. Really, really good episode. What a way to bring things back, too, with David Brahms, man. I feel good. Feel great. He's the best. Yeah, man. Hey, dude. And happy Thanksgiving, fellas. I forgot. Like, this is the week of uh of one of my favorite holidays because I love to eat. And uh but yeah, man. I'm I'm thankful for so much. I don't know. Listen, before we end things tonight, let's go around the horn. Uh Marshall, what's one thing you're thankful for? The albino. Come on. [ __ ] dude. What an epic what an answer. And you said I feel like you were waiting for me to ask you that. Like, you said it pretty quick. And And you're right. God bless the albino. Bill, what's one thing you're thankful for? Oh. Um, you know, kind of like, uh, you guys, family is really, really important to me. And, um, this is Thanksgiving is one of the times where I'll have all my family together. So, thankful for the family and thankful for, um, you know, my family to get some time off around the holidays. Every day is a day off for me. Um, [laughter] [ __ ] You guys, all three of you. But I I like to see my family get some time off and just um you know blow off some steam and and I'm glad to be able to experience that. Yeah, family for me. Very thankful. And you two are family to me and I appreciate you guys, the supports, just the mentorship, everything, man. You guys make everything worth doing when it comes to these Tuesday nights. So, I appreciate you too. And uh yeah, guys, do me a favor. Red Mountain Herps on IG, the man Marshall Menes. And of course, the mayor, Bill Steel, Phoenix Reptiles. Give it up. It's wrap FOR BILL MARSHALL. LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, [applause] See y'all. See you next week, boys. Talk to you guys soon. Thank you so much. Uh, thank you out there. Everyone who enjoyed this episode. If you're not already, please hit that subscribe button, drop a comment in the comment section. I'll be shipping out some free Morph Market and trap merch to any random comment in the comment section, not the live chat. So, go drop a comment. And again, man, uh, thank you so much for all the support. If you want exclusive content, you want to get more behind the scenes or you want to join the Discord awesome Instagram group chat, come join the Trap Talk Patreon family. Click the very first link in the description below. And if you definitely want like information on what I have going on projectwise with all my condos and emeralds, man, I'll tell you what, emeralds are looking good right now. So, come join the Trap Dog Patreon family. Coolest Patreon family in the world. And that's back. Thank you so much for all the love and support. Again, find all the information, all my sponsors in description below. Shout out to the reptile perch. Shout out to GS Reptiles, Sundown Reptiles, and of course, Mark Hager over at Texas Condros. Have a good night. See you here Wednesday, and I'm out. Sorry for the interruption, folks, but a quick word from our sponsors. Green tree pythons, emerald treeboas, and plenty other boreal snakes have been quite the popularity here at the Trap Talk Reptile Network. Which brings me to today's sponsor, the Reptile Perch. Head over to the reptile perch.com and reptile perch on Instagram. See what type of design PVC perch is best for your boreal reptile. But first and foremost, I would also check out David Brahm's green python availability on the website. And you can also check out his Instagram just to stay current on any projects or any productions that he posts. Thank you so much, David Bronx, for your ongoing support. Looking forward to seeing what you have to show in the 2025 season. When you think about building a good community and being a leader of that community, nobody comes to mind better than Mark Hager over at Texas Condro. That's right. Make sure you head over to TXondro on Instagram and also head over to Mark's website. see what he has available green tree python wise and be ready for quite the 2025 green tree python breeding season out of Mark Hager. He's a veteran in the green tree python game. One of the best and nicest breeders in the green tree python game. He's been putting on the whole state of Texas for as long as I've known him. So if you want to see all the amazing other condro keepers out of the state of Texas, another good reason to go follow Mark Hagar over at txconros on Instagram and again head over to his website texasconcondros.com. You can find all the links in the description below. Thank you so much, Mark Hager, for supporting the trap. One of the biggest growths we have in the reptile industry today are the rare species of reptiles that aren't worked with. That's right. That's why I went ahead and partnered up again with Brian Susan over at Sundown Reptiles. Brian works with species such as Cahooa geckos, gargoyle geckos, all species of tree monitors. He works with abonia and many other cool species geckos that you can check out all on his website. Head over to sundownretiles.com. See what he has available. Brian's one of the best doing it in the reptile industry today. He's been on the show multiple times. So, make sure you check out all of Brian Susan's episodes on Trap Talk Reptile Network. But more importantly, for the highest quality of captive bred reptiles, make sure you head over to sundownretiles.com and make sure you give him a follow on Instagram. Thank you again, Brian Susan over at Sundown Reptiles. One of the things I love about being a part of the reptile industry is all the learning. Okay, learning can be fun and I could prove that to you. Thank you so much to today's sponsor, Gary Scabino over at GS Reptiles. I highly recommend you head over to his YouTube channel, follow all this man's content when it comes to learning about rare species of snakes you could be keeping in the hobby and also just finding out how easy a lot of these rare species of snakes are to keep in general. So, thank you so much, Gary Scabino of GS Reptiles. Again, head over to his YouTube channel. Also, head over to his Instagram to be on top of all of his current work and be ready for a big year over at GS Reptiles. Thank you so much, Gary, for your ongoing support. I really appreciate it.

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Pure Manokwari Green Tree Pythons, The overall BEST Locality? | All In The Tree Tuesday Live

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