Transcription
Good evening. Tonight, we go after the story of an extraordinary personality. He is Salvador Dalí, the great surrealist painter, who sees the world through surrealist eyes. If you're curious to hear Salvador Dalí talk about decadence, death, and immortality, about his surrealist art, his politics, and his existence before he was born, we'll go after those stories in just a moment. My name is Mike Wallace. The cigarette is Parliament. The new high filtration filter, Parliament.
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Presents the Mike Wallace Interview. We'll talk with Salvador Dalí in just a moment. I think you'll welcome the change to recessed smoking, because now Parliament, with the recessed filter, is best. The new high-fi Parliament. And here's why. First, Parliament is best because only Parliament can give you over 30,000 traps. No other popular cigarette delivers less nicotine and tar. Second, unlike ordinary filters, Parliament's filter is recessed, set deep down inside here, so that trapped nicotine and tar can't get on your lips. And third, because it's recessed, there's no bitter taste of trapped nicotine and tar to spoil Parliament's pure tobacco flavor. It's a clean, satisfying smoke. And remember, Parliament is continuously tested and reported by the United States Testing Company, one of the world's leading independent testing laboratories. Over 30,000 traps, exclusive recessed filter, flavor, pure protection. Yes, smoke the best high-fi Parliament, now at popular price.
And now to our story. Salvador Dalí is a self-confessed genius with an ingenious flare for publicity. An internationally renowned modern artist, he's also designed fur-lined bathtubs. He's lectured with his head enclosed in a diving helmet, and he claims that at the basis of his ideas are, as he puts it, cauliflowers and rhinoceros horns. He paints like this. Here you see perhaps his most famous work. It's called "Persistence of Memory." In contrast to this dreamlike picture, here is Dalí's surrealist commentary on the horrors of war. It's called "The Face of War." And now an example of Dalí's latest phase, "The Crucifixion," showing his current preoccupation with religious subjects.
Now, let's try to find out some more about the enigma of Salvador Dalí. Dalí, first of all, let me ask you this: You're a remarkable painter, and you've dedicated your life to art. In view of this, why do you behave the way that you do? For instance, you have been known to drive in a car filled to the roof with cauliflowers. You lectured, as I mentioned, once with your head enclosed in a diving helmet, and you almost suffocated. You issue bizarre statements about your love for rhinoceros horns and so on. You're a dedicated artist. Why do you, or why must you, do these things?
Because, uh, this kind of eccentricities correspond on the more important and the more tragical part of my life.
The more important and the more tragical part? I don't understand. The more philosophical.
What is philosophical about driving in a car full of cauliflowers or lecturing inside a discovered a, uh, one tremendous speech, almost, uh, scientific in the, uh, born in Paris about my discovering of the logarithmic curve of cauliflowers.
The what?
Logarithmic spiral of the logarithmic curve.
Yes. And in the same time, the logarithmic spiral in the horn of rhinoceros. In this time, discover this is the symbol of chastity, one of the most powerful symbols of modern times.
Chastity is one of the most powerful symbols of modern times?
In my opinion, is the more urgent and the more dramatic because the chastity represents the force of spirit. And this is the reason is just in any religion, you know, because promise the people make love is no more spiritual strength, no more spiritual force.
Well, we will get to your spirituality, your increasing spirituality over the years, in just a moment. About lecturing with your head enclosed in a diving helmet, why? Why?
Because in this moment, like a understand penetrate in the bottom of subcon...
Conscious?
...scious. What's that?
Penetrate.
Penetrate in the bottom of subconscious.
Mean in the sea? In the inside of the sea?
Yes, down in the sea, full of subconscious, in the depth of the subconscious. Exactly. Al Ortiz is one very clear symbol for arriving in this stage of.
We try to understand. In all seriousness, we try to understand you, and you try to explain. But earlier this week, you told our reporter, "I like to be a clown, a buffoon. I like to spread complete confusion." Before we went on the air, you said to me, "Ask embarrassing questions. Ask embarrassing questions the more as possible." Because why?
Because, uh, stent make one movie in France, yeah. In this movie, myself dance Charleston, and my friends look this piece of movie at all. Dalí in this stage is much better than Charlie Chaplin for me. It's very interesting.
Well, you, because see, is one marvelous painter. In the same time, is one marvelous clown. Is a thousand times much more interesting for everybody.
You want to be a marvelous clown as well as a marvelous painter? Is possible. The two together is very good. You know, Charlie Chaplin is one general clown, but never painter. So what you want to do? In the same time, paint masterpieces, more important.
Well, now, wait, wait. Despite your, uh, humor, time and again you have called yourself a genius, and you're very serious about this. Now, you want to be, evidently, you want to be a genius in two fields. First of all, you have called yourself a genius in many different fields. You know, you...
Yes.
What else besides an artist?
The more important in my life, more glory, more painting, more my draftsmanship is my personality.
Draftsmanship? Your personality is more important?
Every of these little facets of, of my activity.
In other words, what is most important to you is your personality?
Is expressing Dalí. Not the painting, not the clowning, nothing. But the painting, the clowning, the showmanship, the technique, everything is only one manner for express the total personality of Dalí.
I see. I see. Let's take a look at one of your major paintings. Dalí, it's called "Sleep." There it is. Is now on the monitor. What's the point of this picture? Is there any point?
Because, uh, myself work constantly in the moment of sleep. Every of my best ideas coming through my dreams. And the more Dalí-an activity consist in this moment of his.
In other words, you conceive a good deal of your, the more important things happen in the moment of your...
I was going to ask if there was any major theme, any powerful idea which inspires all your work. Could you tell us what it was?
Evidently, what it is is simply an expression of Dalí period. There is nothing more in it. Or am I wrong?
Oh, no. Of, of cosmogony. Of Dalí.
The what?
Cosmogony.
Cosmogony?
Cosmogony of Dalí.
What is the cosmogony? What does that mean?
This, uh, is in advance of new nuclear physics. Because every of my paintings, everybody laugh in the moment of look for the first time. But almost after 12 years, every scientific people recognized every of this painting is one real prophecy. In the moment of paint, my soul watches is the more rigid object for everybody. And myself paint his watch as the very soft candar. Everybody laugh. The last development of nuclear physics prove the new conception of space-time is completely flexible. Not only it is in the microphysics, the time, but in reverse. This prove this object of completely surrealistic approach of so is completely true and scientific.
Dalí, I must confess, you lost me about halfway through. And I'm not sure, I'm not sure that we can... Let me try it another way. What, what does a painter, what does any painter contribute to the world and to his fellow man? Any painter, not just Dalí. What does a painter contribute?
Every painter paints the cosmogony of himself. Of himself.
And it's as simple as that?
Exactly.
Which contributed Raphael? The cosmogony of Raphael?
Uh, Raphael is Renaissance period. The atomic age and the, uh, Franciscan age, nuclear science, and, and, uh, analytic things.
Which contemporary painters, if any, do you admire?
After Dalí, Picasso.
Mmm. After this?
Le.
But these, Dalí and Picasso, are the only two that really do the two geniuses of modern times.
The two geniuses of modern times are Dalí and Picasso.
Uh, in your autobiography, you wrote this. You said, "I adore three things: weakness, old age, and luxury." Why?
Because the luxury is one product of monarchy. And myself, every day becoming more monarchic. No, in political way, because never is, uh, interested in politics. Politics, but in philosophical and cosmo-, cosmical way. Yes. Right. Because, uh, in the modern sense, the new discoveries of, uh, chromosomes and, uh, physics and biology, everything prove the monarchy is the more luxurious things in the life. The most luxurious.
All right. Now, old age. And the most perfect. And the most perfect. And old age.
Age.
Why do you adore old age?
Because, uh, believe young people is completely stupid. You know, young people are stupid. It's only necessary, only believe some old people, the same Leonardo da Vinci, or arrive at some real.
And weakness. Why? Why do you adore weakness?
Because in, uh, the modern physics, everything is weak. You know, is everything, every proton, antiproton, neutron, pion is surrounded of weakness, of nothing. In this moment, the most fantastic thing in physics is the antimatter. Every new physician talk about antimatter. Pain 20 years ago, the fierce antimatter angel.
You write in your biography that death is beautiful. What's beautiful about death?
Why is death beautiful? This is one feeling. Everything is erotic in my opinion. Is erotic. Erotic is ugly immediately. So arrive the feeling of death, everything becoming noble and sublime.
Oh, in other words, life is erotic and therefore ugly. Death is not erotic, but sublime, therefore beautiful. And beautiful. You know, your, for instance, you Mickey Mouse now is, you, a little, uh, good face, a little handsome. But Dalí, you becoming dead, yeah. Everybody take out the chapeau. You becoming one fantastic man. Everybody respect you, thousand times much better. You know.
Are is this by way of a suggestion, sir?
Exactly.
See, you make one strip, you're becoming ugly in one second.
Oh, I agree. I agree. Tell me this, uh, what do you think will happen to you when you die?
Myself, no believe in my death.
You will not die?
No, no. Believe in general in the death, but in the death of the, absolutely not. Not she believe in my death. Becoming very un-pr- is almost impossible.
You are, you fear death?
Yes. Death is beautiful, but you fear death?
Exactly. Because the is contradictory and paradoxical in anything.
Well, yes, indeed. Dalí is paradoxical and contradictory. But why, why, why this fear of death? What do you fear in death?
Because there is no sufficient, uh, convinced of, uh, my fight in religion, you know. In the moment of my selief.
More, you're not sufficiently convinced of your faith?
Exactly. In religion.
Well, now, I spoke with you about a year ago, and we talked about religion, and you said that as the years go by, you embrace Roman Catholicism more and more with your mind, but not yet completely with your heart. This is true. Why not?
Because perhaps this is my early intellectual trend and formation. But now, every day is more approach of this real feeling of religion. Just one month ago, is one tremendous operation of appendix, broken appendix. After this operation, becoming three times more religious than before.
How old are you, Dalí?
Uh, never remember exactly. 54 or 53 or something.
Are you formally involved with your religion? Do you go to church a good deal? Do you pray?
Do you, every day more. But there's no, no sufficiently.
You're not sufficient. Have you ever had a supernatural vision?
Seem. But no supernatural.
An article about you, you mentioned your, your fear of death. An article about you in Life Magazine once said that you're afraid of almost everything, from ocean liners to grasshoppers. The article said you won't buy shoes because you don't like to take off your shoes in public, and that when you go out, you carry a little piece of Spanish driftwood which you keep to ward off evil spells.
Yes, because REM very, very superstitious. But this is, I'm sure, is common of every Spanish people, you know. Spanish people is very superstitious.
Do you know anything about politics at all? You say you don't care about them. Do you know anything about them? Do you know, for instance, who the Prime Minister of Great Britain is?
Uh, yes. But, but no, no, not care of this. Because for me, the important thing is look the philosophical events of every moment. And now is absolutely sure, for instance, monarchy is restored in very shortly. Think Prince Juan Carlos Franco agree this restoration is absolutely convincing. Monarchy coming back in France very shortly. After one milit, perhaps one per.
Do you know, do you know who the Vice President of the United States is? Can you name?
Yeah. Yes. But, but it's possible now. But it's possible perhaps tomorrow, you put the same question and you...
What do you enjoy doing most? Do you like to talk, to paint, to eat, to think? What, what do you like to spend your time doing?
That my manner of expend my time, the more joy, the more delightful is becoming every day a little more Dalí. A little more Dalí. Because in the beginning of my life, you remember, like becoming Napoleon. First wanted to be F...
Cooking.
First, you wanted to be a cook. Then you wanted to be Napoleon.
Cooking. Woman. One woman cooking. You know.
You wanted to be a woman cooking?
Exactly. No. One man, one woman cooking. Second, like it becoming Napoleon. Napoleon. A later one, like it becoming Dalí. And now is every day more Dalí.
In a moment, I'd like to ask you about an extraordinary power which you claim that you have. You've written that you can remember your thoughts and your feelings before you were born, and I'd like to know what those thoughts and feelings were. And we'll get Salvador Dalí's answer in just 60 seconds.
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Then, Dalí, you said that you can remember not only things that happened to you in your infancy, but even your feelings before you were born. What were they? What did you think about? What did you feel?
I, I remember very clearly many images. I not only in black and white, but in glorious, technicolor.
Technicolor. I see. And what specifically?
Some phosphors, phosphoros, and X, luminous. X told about this visions of Dr. Freud in London. A Freud tell me that is absolutely true. Is the origin of intrauterine memories. Probably my position, fetal position, my pillow is very early by my hands. Mmm, depend on my position.
Was it? Well, what was it like? Was it, was it pleasant before you were born?
Ah, it's completely paradise. Paradise. This moment, the more divine images. In the moment of born, is the moment of the paradise is lost. These the theory of.
Well, under those circumstances, I find it difficult to understand your fear of death. If the moment of being born was paradise lost, perhaps death for you will be paradise regained. And therefore, I would think that you...
This is my op-, but is not absolutely sure. This is the trouble. See, the death is the again the recare of this paradise. This is excellent. That is not cheer.
Yeah. Do you, uh, do you enjoy yourself as you live? You like yourself? You think you say that you are a genius. Certainly you have had the...
Enjoy my life every day more.
You do? Every week more?
Mmm. Because observe Dalí, and my admiration for Dalí becoming tremendous.
Yes. What, what kind of dreams do you have? What are they about?
Every time is very agreeable and creative. The last dreams is about the antimatter angels. Perhaps for 5 months, only dream of about archangels, angels, kings, and the most beautiful spectacle.
You seem to be a mild-mannered man. Are you, please understand, are you a mild man? Are you a pleasant man to deal with? Uh, are you a friendly man? You seem to be a mild man, an easy man.
Everybody love very much. Everybody loves.
Pathetic. And but your paintings, they're frequently violent. And you've written that in your private life, you have had sudden impulses to injure people. As a child, you kicked people. You threw a friend off a rocky ledge. As an adult, you confess that you once kicked a legless beggar along a street.
Exactly. But this is my adolescence period. Now becoming much more, uh, quiet in this kind of sadistic.
Yes. Is the contrary. After my religious feelings becoming more strong, yeah. The sadistic things of my adolescence disappear almost completely.
Is that so? And, and when you were a young man, too, you used to try to hurt yourself. You were masochistic as well as sadistic. You used to try to hurt yourself. You'd bind your head until it hurt because you felt that you could be more creative that way.
You do not need that. No. Now, every of these disappear because every of my libido now is sublimate in the religion and the mysticism.
Well, there's one story about yourself I'd like to ask you about before you go. When you were courting your wife, Gala, you did an unusual thing, as you've described it. You smeared your body with your own blood from a cut. You tore your clothes, and then you rubbed a jar of evil-smelling fish glue all over yourself, and you planned to present yourself this way in front of your future wife. Why did you do that?
Because in this moment, I believe this. In this moment, the is true. Is almost psychopathologic.
Before Met Gala, my my brain is very close of one psychopathologic brain. Your brain? Yes. And in this moment, like seducing Gala, in the most terrific manner. He believe smell is the more attractive manner for seducing Gala. Gala becoming in love with me. It is, is probably the real Gala. Gala create the real mysticism, the real classicism of my actual life.
And you have been married now to Gala for how many years?
Or perhaps, uh, 20 or more.
I see. And but still in marriage. In the beginning, we also something nobody believe. Perhaps never make love one another. Woman and man in 20 years. And the people never believe. Because everybody, one day, why? Why shouldn't we believe? It's the most sensible thing in the world. You, but there no. My believe is very frequent. But the other people told me is very exceptional.
Well, I don't think perhaps as exceptional. And now my obsession is the chastity, because is the more powerful for me.
Dalí, I certainly thank you for coming and spending this time. I'm looking forward to the publication of your new book, Dalí, which will be published in the fall, and I understand we'll have a good many color plates of your paintings in it. Thank you, Dalí.
To those who raise eyebrows or look down their noses at him, Salvador Dalí bristles his remarkable mustache with equal disdain. As he puts it, "I cannot understand why human beings should be so little individualized, why they should behave with such great collective uniformity." He says, "I do not understand why when I ask for a grilled lobster in a restaurant, I'm never served a cooked telephone."
I'll be back in a moment with a special announcement about future plans.
One pack, I believe, is all it takes to discover that now Parliament, with the recessed filter, is best. The best filter-flavor combination ever. And here's why: First, over 30,000 traps in this filter. No other popular cigarette delivers less nicotine and tar. Second, unlike every other filter, Parliament's filter is recessed. It's set deep down inside here, so that trapped nicotine and tar can't get on your lips. And third, because it's recessed, there's no bitter taste of trapped nicotine and tar to spoil Parliament's pure tobacco flavor. It's a clean and satisfying smoke. And remember, Parliament is continuously tested and reported by the United States Testing Company, one of the world's leading independent testing laboratories. Smoke the best high-fi Parliament, now at popular price.
Tonight's interview ends my series which started a year ago for the Philip Morris Company, the makers of Philip Morris, Parliament, and Marlboro cigarettes. And I want to thank the Philip Morris Company sincerely for helping me to bring you these programs. Next Sunday evening, next Sunday evening at 10:00 Eastern Daylight Saving Time on many of these stations, I'll start a new interview series devoted to the theme of freedom and survival. The series will be produced in cooperation with the Fund for the Republic and will be designed to encourage public discussion of freedom and justice. We're going to talk about the problems of the individual in his relationship to big government, big business, and big labor. We're going to examine the growing power of political party and pressure groups. We'll talk about the responsibility of our mass media: newspapers, magazines, motion pictures, and television. We'll discuss these issues with such men as Supreme Court Justice William Douglas, Aldous Huxley, author of Brave New World, industrialist Cyrus Eaton. Next Sunday night, on the first program, we'll open the series with an examination of religious skepticism, of the conflict between church and state, of religion and morality in American life. Our guest, you see behind me, will be one of the world's leading religious thinkers, the Protestant theologian, Dr. Reinhold Niebuhr. We'll ask Dr. Niebuhr why he charges that our current religious revival is essentially meaningless. We'll find out why Dr. Niebuhr says that religion can never abolish injustice and evil in society. That's next Sunday at 10:00 on many of these stations. Till then, Mike Wallace, good night.
The Mike Wallace Interview has been brought to you by the new high filtration Parliament. Parliament, now for the first time, at popular price.
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