Why Clients Keep Rejecting Your Work

Welcome back to another episode of Sticky Notes, the unfiltered podcast for creative professionals where we ungate the parts of our careers that nobody talks about but everybody goes through. I am your host CJ and I'm still in Jack Chitty studio with Jack Chitty. Dude, a week later. Still here.

Still here. How you doing, brother?

Yeah, I'm good, man. We just had a massive lunch, so we're flagging a bit, but um yeah, I'm good, man. I'm good. Always nice to chat to you.

Yeah, dude. This topic I'm really excited about to uh to hash out with you because this one I must get this question right under one other question that we'll talk about on another topic where I haven't eaten [ __ ] ton of chicken schwarmer.

Yeah.

Uh so I want to give that as much justice as possible. But this topic we're going to be talking about is all about getting your work signed off by your clients. Getting your clients to prove the like the things that you're coming up with to to get on board with it to try and get as little push back as possible. Right? Because as designers, I mean, I think probably anyone in the creative industry will probably feel this, whether you're film, animation, photography, whatever.

Okay, it's this relationship with you and a client, and it's usually arguably someone who maybe isn't in the creative as much, that's why they're hiring you. Um, but then you kind of got leftrain and rightrain thinkers trying to come together, and you're trying to explain something. You're a left brain thinker to a right brain thinker or a right brain to a left brain. And that can be really difficult. Um, and then what happens then usually is we get loads of push back from our clients. Man, they're not stoked on maybe we've come up with or they didn't understand it or they didn't see the merit in it or the idea or the thinking. We get push back and then we have to change things, barize things. You know, I've had a fair few logos over the, you know, over my career so far that have never seen the light of day.

Oh, we all do. The graveyard. The graveyard. I mean, there's one of them. There's one of my f.

Well, but that's the thing. Well, that's a really good point. We can talk about that. But um sometimes, you know, you have to make some decisions you really don't want to make and create things you really don't want to make and then you're not really proud of it. And it usually comes down to just what I believe is how we present our work. It's how we package it. It's how we deliver the message to the client, right? So the medium is the message.

That's it. The med is the message. So like that topic think hopefully this will be really interesting. Um, when it comes to it, but it also might be a bit tough to hear. Maybe there might be a bit of a hard truth. some pretty strong opinions on it cuz I I remember um Oh, we're actually in. We haven't even idented yet. We need to know. Go there.

I dent about here. [laughter]

Oh, my door's going.

Go, go, go.

This is very exciting. I'll try and entertain you whilst Jack's gone. Um, as you can see, everything we do here when we say is unfilled, genuinely unfiltered.

Jack is just getting his door. Someone's coming.

He's going to go and get it back. So, he's got a really exciting package that he's literally just getting right now as a recording. So, we thought maybe it'd be a good idea to uh to open it whilst we're doing this. Where's he go?

I don't know where he's going.

And he's back.

Here's ASOS.

No, it's not even the thing that we wanted. It's not even the thing. It It'll happen. [clears throat]

That's [laughter] It's not even the thing.

It's not even the thing, but we That will probably turn up in this episode as well.

Right. Okay. Well, back on with the episode. I can't remember where we even were. You said you had uh some pretty strong opinions about this.

Yes. Yeah. Um Yeah. So, one of my strongest I remember early on in my career, I was told that you can either like present your work on a call or in person or just send it on email. And I was always I pushed back on that then and I was like I just think it's so wrong. God, you guys speak for a second.

Yeah. [laughter] while Jack's catching his breath from running to get the ASOS order and not the thing that we thought it was going to be, which is useless to anyone who's listening or watching. Uh, yeah, dude. When I So, I had a little bit of a similar maybe a similar story to this. When I was in uni studying design, I didn't even know that it how important it was going to be to present my ideas to CL. I didn't know that was a thing. I thought I'd just be making stuff and someone would just say yes to it and that's fine. But it was really really early on in the like the first year of being in uni that my lecturer who was like he was he was a working designer. So he was the creative my first year sorry my first year lecturer was a creative director at Porsche in Dubai.

Sick.

So he had some like you know he'd been some places bro he's seen some things. He worked with like Oreo and Fanta and all these other like crazy brands and things and then ended up in Porsche doing whatever. And he straight away was like every time we had a brief or we were doing anything he was like right I'm going to need you to get up in front of the whole class and you're going to explain your ideas to us tell us why you've done this and why you've done that. I was like oh hang on I thought I was just drawing some stuff and now you let me talk about it but it's a really important thing but like like that's not an inherent skill I think of a creative. I think that's quite difficult to do. Creatives we usually very much like keep ourselves to ourselves. We're in our own heads like we know what we're doing to now have to kind of almost sell an idea talk in that language about why we made certain decisions cuz so much of it sometimes feels like it's just intuitive or we knew when someone goes like well why did you do that like why is this happening that was quite jarring dude so I um I remember leaving that first year of uni before I went back for the second year being like all right I feel like I can draw some stuff and make some stuff and that will get better over time that's a muscle I can work on but like the presenting side of stuff like teach like being able to talk about my work and share it and ultimately sell it to people that potentially again are not they're not thinking like you they don't don't talk like they don't understand even like the language like just like you don't like you don't talk numbers and data they don't talk the creative fluff stuff right and that's what he explained it's like when was working for Porsche is it wasn't always like that you know he'd have to talk to people in such a different way but about design and that was quite hard so I remember going away spending my entire summer learning how to sell like how to talk like a salesman might you uh what you like hijacked a copy of that um

I don't want to completely put myself into some sort of criminal problem but I did somehow maybe find a bootlegged version of the Wolf of Wall Street's cell uh straight line persuasion

straight line persuasion

and it was like a 12hour video huge yeah it took like the whole summer for me to kind of get through and it was like hard to get through because like like I liked I thought he was really cool and I liked the movie and stuff and I'd read the book at that point or I think I was reading book at that point and um you know that's not like not enjoyable content. That's not easy to just binge. So it took like a whole summer to do it.

Then when I got back from kind of learning that idea of like selling and like communicating to people through ultimately just words just through conversation which I wasn't actually that good at at all beforehand. Um I put it to practice in my second year. Just kicked butt with it. I was able to start presenting my ideas so much clearer to people because mine was like super competitive the way it worked like because it was such a small university group. We had like real life briefs like that was the point. They were live briefs from people design courses I've heard of. Yours sounded like the best.

It was kickass. I can't like I'm not going to like try and sugar coat it. It was awesome because I spoke to a lot of people giving you like real life skills like not just like it's how you use the program like how you actually sell in work.

Yeah. every nearly every project for 3 years was a real project of some kind. It was going to get created, made, used somewhere or it was actually from an external business that was coming to the university to say, "Hey, we'd need some work students do instead." So you'd have an opportunity, but you'd have like you'd be in competition with your peers. So you'd either get put into groups with like one or two of you or you were just on your own against 30 other people to present your

got to make those friendships and colleague

I ain't going to lie man I don't think I was particularly liked by the end of the third year dude buzzed about it. Yeah. I annoyingly like and it's going to sound like such an arrogant thing to say and I really don't mean it to come out like that but I was like every project that was put out in front of us like I would because I could present it so I could talk about it like really really talk about it really sell it. I'd argue that a lot of the work that I was even creating in my university days compared to some of the other there was a guy that I um still see now every now and then I see him pop up on my um on my Instagram guy called Alex who his work was just stunning like the execution of his work was just ridiculous like I'd always be scared of going up against him but I did have a little bit more of a gift of a gab by then I'd like trained myself

I mean I'm not sure I I'll completely agree because I haven't seen that guys Alex what this like Alex's work. But um it goes to show though that like if even if you are the best designer, you might not get the work signed off or win the project because you can't talk about it, if you can't sell it in. And so like sales is everything anyway. Like any kind of professional interaction you're having is some sort of sale. Like it's some sort of negotiation of something. You've got something that I want vice versa. You have to

It's happening more and more now. Well, like not even just in like the presenting of my work, like but like even beforehand like getting on a call with a client to begin with to like even decide if we're right for the gig and right for the job and like so much of this game is selling and presenting like and it might not be presenting in like here's my nice shiny work, but it's here's an idea that I think we could go down like does it feel right for you? Like a lot of it is like how we package things up and present them. And I think we don't do ourselves justice, dude. I think I imagine maybe there's a few people listening that also feel has had that frustration of like it's like sign my [ __ ] off don't like it always getting push back and I'm always getting I think I I see a lot of that I don't know whether that's become a bit of like a just an echo chamber online right I get so many like it's like a funny joke that always people put in comments isn't it like oh yeah client didn't like client then asked for a change or client then push back on this and then asked for this to happen and like and then everyone Everyone's like, "Yeah, yeah, me too. Me too." And I think that's not particularly actually always the experience I've had.

No, but I think it is in those situations like I I don't I don't for a second believe that those people commenting that are the only people that have tricky clients. Like we've had tricky clients, but it's about how you communicate. It's a collaborative process. It's about trying to communicate the idea that you have that you believe is best for this business to take forward in a way that they can understand and believe in themselves. And it's it's it's this whole dance. And I think that um people that constantly find they're getting push back, they should be evaluating their process. How are they pitching these ideas to clients? How are they communicating it? How does it align with again? What problem is it solving? those kind like all of the things that as you said earlier the language that your client is using trying to repackage it and use even the same words that they use like understand them hear what their problem is what words they use to describe it use that back into the way that you pitch back to them or present back to them and it will resonate so much deeper yeah presenting is I I can imagine though so many people probably get very scared of it and it is scary like it's super exposing presenting an idea to a client like there is this is what I've I created a mini course on all about just literally just presenting an idea to a client like what that what does that even look like and I did it across three different presentations so you can see that there's like a structure to all three of them they're all different in their own right they will talk about different things but I try to have this structure I've like worked on it for like probably over like 10 years now because we like that that I was presenting way way back when I was in uni and then even when I then worked in my first agency that was so much of my gig was presenting the idea ideas to people. Like I was forced to even do that. And I was quite I was a young

real young designer like literally fresh out university put into an agency

and I think even in the first like month or two of being there I'd have clients come in and I'd have to sit down next to each other like this showing ideas and I I'd be on my own in that situation doing I remember most terrifying feeling because you're just putting a little piece of yourself out there that you've worked really really hard on and you've maybe sometimes worked on it again if you're freelance in complete isolation. like no one's seen it until this moment.

You're really precious about it and you feel very protective of it. Of course you do.

What do you think that in that moment is the Where does the fear come from of like why is it so airy?

Well, it's just being rejected I think like in full stop, isn't it? It's like it's it's being told like I don't like it or I don't get it. You take it personally. It's like cuz it's you put so much of you in it and so much of your work in it. I you do that at the start like that that I've changed that now but again it's taken like 10 12 years to get to this point where I try on email uh I try to remove myself as much the work until it's done until it's signed off like I've always said like don't fall in love with your work until your clients fall in love with your work very hard to do sometimes you can't help it so stoked on an idea you're so in love with it you're so

but then that's like when you when you you find yourself with a piece of work that you're really chuffed with and you're excited to show them and hope that it gets signed off. That's where you've got to do extra like putting even more diligence into how you're going to present it, how you're going to market it, how you going to write the story around it to get it signed off. And I think in those moments like when it is really scary when because it is scary you know you as you said you've put a lot of yourself into this work flicking through the slides showing all reminding them of the strategy or what have you and then you get eventually you get towards the end of the presentation where you show them the work and those like final clicks before you get to those slides are really scary. But if you've got if you are well prepared and you have the answers to all the possible questions, that's that's where you have the most confidence in that. That's the best way to get to that that slide is like

for like I was saying to you earlier like the one of the project projects that I posted the other day, there's a certain angle of the word mark and it was an ambiguous number. It didn't have to mean anything. It could just be 45 degrees or it could be something like that. But it I had the opportunity to bake in meaning into something that was pretty arbitrary. And then when I presented that back, one of the founders cried because it felt so personal and human to them. And so when you've got like if someone if let's say you are making a word mark that has a degree of it atalicization to it and your client says why is it 44 degrees and why isn't it 29° and you don't have an answer like you need to think about all of these questions and have an answer prepared for every single decision. I sometimes say it is as reductive as if you don't have a reason for something. And it can be that it looks cool. It can be

rarely though if you're going to try to appeal to someone's logic. But if you don't have a reason for why something looks cool, remove it.

Yeah. I mean that's that's especially No.

I just Wait, hold on. I just realized what I just said. If you don't have a reason for why something looks cool, if you don't have a reason for why something is there,

there you go.

Then remove it.

Then remove the thing. Yeah.

But the reason could be that it's cool.

Yeah. And sometimes we do we'll look for any reason maybe to justify something especially in the early days where it gets easier now like the more I've created marks and logos over time.

I really am very harsh on myself. I'm very much like if that thing is not needed like if I'm still trying to tell the story like that's that's really where it gels down to. I'm like I'm trying to tell a story to my client. Like what is the is it the story of sharing? Is it the story of ante? Is it the story of whatever that thing is? It's like whatever is that centralized theme of an of an identity. How do I tell that story to them?

And it's the same then when I'm creating and making anything is does this mark keep telling that story? And if I was to remove something from it, does the story still make sense? And if it does, then I remove it like it's obviously not needed. It's

that whole balance, isn't it? Like how much can you remove without the whole house of cards falling down?

Exactly that. And then it's the same when you present the idea. It's like how much of it's just fluff and guff. I've seen my fair share of like people's presentations and other designers presentations. And I think now after presenting so many of my own over for so long, so many different ways, I have found things that that work and don't work. And I think there's a there's a common thing that happens is as designers, we love sharing our work with designers. So we we talk about it like designers to designers. Like we'll show those angles off, but we'll only just show the angles. We won't give it any other meaning than that. Maybe we'll show how clever it was from a balancing point of view or how it's been kerned or all these other things. as like designers we get like really excited about, right? And it's usually like you find this kind of stuff on like Behance. You get these like beautiful presentations, but it's like that was designed for a designer in mind. Like even that presentation was designed to make designers go

grids and structure,

but to a client that means [ __ ] all to them. Like it genuinely means nothing to them. But I think we get lost in our own head of like, well, looks really impressive and this is really great. But that's us talking in that leftrain way. We're we're talking in that creative way to our client. We're not talking in in their language. When we're when we're talking about the kerning and the grids and the shapes of stuff with no meaning or tangibility for them, that's where we go wrong. Like that's where a client will look and go, man, I get this. I don't understand it.

And they want they will push that back and they want to see others. Like another thing that I do now with presentations is only presenting one concept at a time. I think this is something else that gets stuck in uh in their way a little. I think it muddy the waters. my my own experience from presenting more than one concept.

Nine times out of 10 you end up with some weird Frankensteined hybrid version of three of your ideas.

Yeah.

Um, it kind of gives that choice paralysis to stuff, right? Present an idea and I used to do it like that's cuz I thought that's what you meant to do. Like I would I present like three ideas to someone.

Yeah. Because I think like the what you'd be mis forgiven for thinking but I think it's a a common misconception is that if you present one it's just cuz that's all you've done and it's just a bit lazy but it's really not like it's it's the same amount of work. You might have four or five really strong directions. But it's it's ultimately the one that solves the problem the best. It's like it's not quite the best analogy but I used to speak about it where like if you had a leak in your house and your plumber came around. you hired a plumber and he came around and he said, "Uh, I can solve this three ways. This way, this way." And you like, "Just solve it the best way."

Yeah.

I don't care if it's this way is a different way or this way. The best way that solves my problem. Yeah.

I know it's not perfect analogy, but it's kind of it kind of the logic flows, but

yeah, it's uh

I don't think I have anything else to add. [laughter]

Still in a slump.

Still in a slump from the schwarmer. Uh, yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, when it comes to presenting the ideas now, like that I think that's how like that's basically the crux of how I get my work signed off comes down to that presentation, how I communicate the idea. And for me, I I break it down now into I so I again, it's kind of loosely. It's a little bit like this plumber thing said. It's really really loose. It's not like the exact science of it, but like I break it down into storytelling. I see it as a storytelling structure. It's these acts, these three acts. Like whenever you're sharing any information with anyone, it's how every single book is written. It's how every single song is ever made. Like it's anything that's been creatively made, it usually follows this kind of structure of a story. So I was always like, well, why can't we do that in the presentation? Like how could you know? Because I think that might be another question people ask like I've got my logos, I got my stuff, I'll show them that. And like that's always the I think that's the mistake again from presenting so many ideas to clients trying to get them to believe in the idea and sign it off and trust trust that I know what I'm going on about. I use like this structure this kind of storytelling structure which is act one which is to set a scene and act two is to create a conflict and act three is the resolution. That's how every single good story's ever been made. Humpty Dumpty is like I always use that as a as an analogy. Humpty Dumpty sits on a wall. Act one, we know where he is and who he is. And act two, he falls off the wall and egg goes everywhere. Oh, no problem. And act three, all of his mates put him back together again. Aha, resolution. It's so memorable.

We can understand it for years to come. I can tell my friends about it. Like it that structure is so much more powerful thing. So I do the same thing with with my presentations. It's go, okay, I need to show them a logo ultimately is what I'm doing is I'm showing them this visual identity and I'm trying to make them believe in it. I work backwards from that. Like that's the resolution. And that's act three is like look at this beautiful solution I've created. Aha, everything's right in the world.

So before that happens, I need to show a conflict. Like what's the problem? What is the thing that's gone wrong? What's the hurdle that's in our way as client designer, your world, your audience? Like what is it that we're actually solving as a designer? And then if we just go back again into act one is we just set the scene like who is involved here? Who are these people? Who who is client? Who am I? Who is our audience? Where are they? Where are they in the world? What are they doing? And then act two being that conflict of okay, well, we want to be talking to these people and we're not right now or we want to be on this shelf and we can't get on that shelf because we're we're not looking the right, you know, most appropriate way possible. So, I'm in the presentation like showing them that and I'm taking them through that. So, then when they get to resolution, when they get to the aha moment, it all makes sense and they of course it's the solution. I you said it a second ago. It's about you're trying to get to the end of the presentation where there is no stone that's been unturned and there's no questions to answer. Like if you ever put together a presentation, you think, "Oh, they might ask this." You need to answer that ination first.

Yeah.

Cuz I know that that used to happen to me a lot as well where you're like, you put together and you already know that they're going to have doubts and fears. You already know. You're like about that or question it. Well, if you're doing that already, you have to

There's a good chance that they're going to think it too.

They're going to do it. So, I I'll exhaust it, dude. Like I spend a lot of time presentations, dude. So much so much time than you think. That's why I've I tried my best to systemize them, you know, like and template them the best I can.

My template for it though, like even that gets like

that changes so much like it it stinks of it. But it's not also an absolute like failsafe plan either. Like I've still presented ideas and it's not

Yeah. That's always going to happen. I mean, because it's regardless of whether you're a creative or not, you have an opinion like everyone will have an opinion on creative whether they are they are in that world or not. And I try and think about towards the end of the like you were saying earlier like there are some people who aren't in the creative world and they aren't they don't think the same way. They they they don't use their imagination in perhaps the same way that we do. So you have to you know there are like like well I guess maybe it's not obvious to everyone but we need to show the work in in their world. you need to show it with like specific industry mockups and things like that. But I like to in my creative direction meetings before I've even started design, I will get my client to agree on an assessment framework. So it'll be next to a specific direction. So usually I'm presenting two or three. Each of them have their own assessment framework and it will usually be nine words and they'll be like really emotive but like very specific. It won't be like trustworthy or reliable, you know, it will be something really specific like nostalgia from like the 80s or something like that. And it would be really really specific. And so once that's signed off at the creative direction, then when I present the actual work, having gone through all the stuff like you're talking about doing the story, taking setting the scene, showing the conflict and the resolution, then we go back to that assessment framework and try and make the subjective objective. So I could be like, "Remember you signed off on these? Remember?

Yes, I do this.

Remember this?" Yeah.

And then they're like, "Yeah, yeah, I remember that." And and this hits all these, doesn't it? And they're like, "Yes, it does." And they're like, "Well, then therefore the conclusion is signed off. It is the solution."

That's exactly you're basically in those present. I do exact same thing.

You're kind of It's It's a bit enttrapment, but

it is a little [laughter] bit, but like I'm only showing back. So that's that's We need to work backwards again. We're all over the shop. You can tell we had

I'm I'm the bad one this time. I'm the bad host.

We've had so potato and chicken. That's the problem. Um, before all of that, like to before you can even get your work signed off through that presentation, you've got to do your research beforehand. Like that's the bit that you got to have all of the information because if you don't have all the information going into it like that's where you're going to trip and fall and we spend so much time in the in the beginning like gaining all that information, going through some level of strategy call and I have that first discovery call. First call I have with a client, we jump on, maybe I spend like 20 minutes with them, half an hour just genuinely getting to know them as people. Yeah. I'm kind of gauging like, can I spend the next 12 weeks with you? Because if I can't, then

watching out for red flags.

Red flags. How have we worked with other people before and hated everything we've ever done? I'm out. See you later. I'm not going to put together a proposal.

But I'm gauging a lot of information there. Like I'm finding out like who this is for, why why now? Like why they want to work with me? What's what's wrong with the project? I'm just like gaining information, gaining information. Then I'll do a brand strat call and go through this like enormous beautiful deck that has been shaped from stuff that you've given me, stuff that I found over the past. Like it's it's become a hybrid of like all these other people.

That's how it goes. The process is never finished. It always gets refined.

It still gets evolved. I literally did something to the other day. But like I then jump on a call with my client takes as long as it possibly takes sometimes like it depends how much the client talks. Like some people really encouraging. They want to chat to you for like hours and hours and you have to like like right we need to kind of stop now.

Yeah. Otherwise I could be here forever. You have to stuff out. You're like come on we need more than that. Need more conversation more things. But I do it just through like a zoom super candid right away. All this sort of stuff and we go through all these kind of questions. We ask all these questions around

and then when we present like you said you present back that brand strat that creative direction. and you say, "Okay, remember you said remember you said these people. We still had ones and like I still don't like it though." It's like,

"Yeah,

okay. Well, then something's gone ary before this point." And then you start to find out like they didn't mean it when you said nostalgia from the 80s.

Yeah. Yeah. Now, now it turns out that you were you were gas lit the entire way or blindsided. It still happens from time to time, but like I'm always like constantly checking in for every single stage of the project. It's like, "Right, okay. you gave us me all that all that lovely information in the brand strat. That's great. I'll get them to go away and start finding stuff like creatively that they're really gravitating towards. You know, what is it like? What's your taste? What's your visual taste? Sometimes it's not used to me, but I like to know. They'll share a lot of that taste with me. It

may not be it may not be right for the audience, but sometimes you can get that overlap between their personal taste and the audience. And then that is that's

that really helps. So like that's what I do is I get them to share with me. I I say, "Look, go away for the next week and just collect as much as possible. Grab stuff, things that you love, logos that you love, type, colors, whatever it is. Let me see what that looks like." And it's okay if it's all different. That's kind of the point. My job is to maybe see a pattern, maybe see something that's right for this. So then I've got that beautiful brand strat and then get all that creativeness from like all that visual [ __ ] from them. And I can look at both and sort of then start to plan out, okay, like this is where we want to go. This is who we want to speak to. This is the goal over the next five years. this is what how we want to be sounding. This is how we want to be seen. If we weren't in the room, that's how we want to be spoken about visually. This is the kind of world they're into. Okay. And then I'll use my my own design brain and heart to be like, "Okay, I think this could be a great direction for them." And I do the same. I'll do like maybe whatever's appropriate. Sometimes there's like only one or two,

maybe there's three or four potential directions we could go down. Depends on how big this thing is.

And then I present that again. I present it. I haven't drawn anything yet. I haven't made anything yet. just presenting back and that's just me being like are you sure like this is like I I need to sign off on this bit because basically when I come to present an idea to you

you're not allowed to say no is what I'm trying to trying to make sure that I just absolutely pigeon hole you so much in that you can't fight me back where back in the day I used to be like we'd get on a call like oh we do this we want a logo this is some [ __ ] that we like and I go okay cool I should make a logo that looks like this and then you present that and be like there you go and then like they'd be like oh actually this is nothing like what I think it should be or yeah, there was just no direction of any kind. There was no research put in. There was no thought being put into it. So spending the time like really spending your time taking that bit seriously gathering all of your information and getting all of your ducks in the row is so important like way before you present or before you even draw anything better present the idea.

And then when it comes to that presentation like you've already got those acts set out because you can be like, "Oh, I know who we are. Did that in the brand strat. That's good stuff."

Yeah.

Oh, I know what the problem is because we went through it in the brand strat. We went through what what our problem is and who we're trying to solve it for and oh creatively I know where we're trying to go. Brilliant. So here's like a little bit of like window into the

It's just trying to get like loads of mini yeses to getting that big yes in the end.

Yeah, that's a good way of putting it. Get loads of mini yeses. Yeah.

Yeah. Cuz I think if you are just it is a you know if you are doing like a comprehensive brand identity, there's strategy involved. There's verbal. There's visual. There's loads of stuff at play. and trying to go in cold turkey almost and trying to get that big sign off without any of these mini ones is like really difficult. And I think it also from like a client interaction and client enjoyment perspective like they will enjoy the process so much more and feel so much more entwined with the process and feel like it's much more of a collaboration when it is like what about this little thing? What do we think about that? And what do we think about this? What if we look like this? What would that world look like? And then getting all of these little signoffs ultimately makes that big sign off so much easier. Oh, 100%. Absolutely. It's an absolute no-brainer, but the only way to do it is to by doing it. So, I get a lot I wonder if you might have some good advice here, but presenting something like especially on camera like we do it like face to face with our clients, right? Like obviously like a lot of our clients are not in the UK, but we'll jump on calls with people and and share screens and literally go through the presentation like frame by frame. Obviously, that's like a terrifying experience.

There's a reason though why we do it. My reason is that I can decide like I'm in control of the situation the whole time. If I just send people like well maybe I'll just put together a deck and then I'll just send the deck. They're not they're going to skip through the deck. They are going to go where's the logo? Oh, there it is. And they've then so they've not seen any of the setup, any of the understanding and they're making a judgment call immediately without any of that thought.

People will then maybe push back and say, "Well, no one else gets all of the rationale to the logo, so why would they?" Because they're buying it. That's the difference. It's like you can't expect someone who's come to you and asked for a logo design, a visual identity design, and for you to create it and then to just completely understand it from from the get-go from a the person that's going to be running the brand, you know, think that it's their thing. They're running it. They need to understand all of that to get behind it so they feel like they trust it. It's not about the customers to also do that, too. So I understand I've had that fight with people with comments before of like well I wouldn't need to present all of this because we should just all understand it straight away because that's what customers aren't customers aren't buying this part of the process are they? My my client is and it's incredibly arrogant of me to just be like

here it is better like it take it or leave it like and of course I need to explain to them why I've done what I've done and how it's going to help them get to where they're going. That's the point here. Not about all the prettiness and all that kind of stuff. So presenting it allows me to to take

control the pace I think is the main thing the tempo because sometimes there's a slide that you want to linger on for a bit longer build up almost like hype. It's almost like you're doing like the X factor of like where you're building all the buildup is to this last I don't know like 15 slides and you get to control the pace, control the tempo. Your last sentence before they see it is V like you know all of those things that you get to control as you're right they will just skip to the end. Although there is some people might say, well, look, I'm in the UK and my client's in Australia and we can't time zones literally just don't add up. It's their day is our night. Then we What do you do? Could we do the same thing here?

I I'll record it still. Like I'll do a Loom presentation where I I am still presenting the idea and you also So on that I do the same where you record a Zoom. So it's exactly the same experience to a degree. We're controlling the pace, controlling the story, flicking through the size we want. I will just send them the video and I don't send them the deck until they've seen it.

Once I've seen that they've seen it, then I'll send you the deck. So, yeah, I I will literally put in an email and say, "Hey,

watch this first.

Watch this. You have to watch the entirety of this thing."

Yeah.

Do do not skip.

The trouble is though. Yeah. The thing is they could just

they can still skip ahead, but like most most of the time like because I've spent so much time with them prior to that moment. I spent weeks with them prior to that moment. You've going through all this stuff and

they're usually pretty good. Like I've explained to them like nine times this that I'm going to be presenting an idea to you. Like it's important for you to take take this whole process seriously. Like this is not about just like let's just look at [ __ ] Like they should by now already be like really up for doing it. And I think there's I think there's something to be said in that as well. Like

think about that. Like they've hired this person and this person's just spent 40 minutes recording this thing to take me through it. Like I would like to think the person whoever's receiving that is like, "Oh, get me some popcorn. let's awesome. Like someone gives a [ __ ] about my business. Like I know we're paying him to do it, but like

I think that shows like the amount of intimacy and passion and craft like you love about your job. Like I could just create the work and put it in a thing and say, "Hey, go download this. Let me know what you think." But like someone to then present this whole thing in post, create the narrative. And in the email, he even told me, "I beg you, don't skip ahead. I really want you to go through it." He really gives a [ __ ] He loved his craft. I want to give it the time and the space it deserves. Like hopefully that builds up some of the the excitement. And that's what you wanted to do. I explained like a roller coaster. Like the roller coaster would suck if you just got on it and the first thing it did was just do a drop. Like like I want to build up to that thing. The anticipation is incredible. Like when you're going around all these corners and and then you go up the you [ __ ] in your pants like, "Oh my god, this is insane. This is insane." Like I try to do the same thing with my clients. It's like we're going up this presence and they're watching like God

Just show me the logo. [laughter] I want to see it. And then like you got to hope that it doesn't just completely break and doesn't stop doesn't work halfway up it. But like usually when it does and you show the solution and then you go down the roller coaster is exciting from then on out. That's you know roll out bit.

>> That's the brand roll. That's the [laughter] whole thing that comes after it, right? Like I I also try to use the analogy of like it's um it's like dating someone, right? Or like I can't go into a bar, go up to a really pretty lady and be like, "Can you will you marry me?" Like we don't know each other. That's an insane thing to do. That's like a huge commitment I'm asking this person to do. She's going to slap me, dude. Like it's not going to go well.

Kind of the same with your clients. Like you can't have like any to little. No, you can't have little to to no relationship with them. And then say, "Hey, commit to this really big thing that I'm just going to put in front of you now." Like you have to say yes to this thing. Why would they say yes to it? We need to build a relationship. And that comes from whining and dining and dating for [laughter] getting them excit Exactly. It's about like teasing them a little bit. Same with that presentation. It's the same with everything. every time you show them something new leading up to the final moment and it's taken like weeks like I said like those presentations that's brand strat presentations and creative direction and like it's just every time they hear from you and see it's like another little tease another little like oh so close to like the big reveal and then when it happens usually if you've actually done a good job and you have listened to everything and you have designed with purpose and intent it lands and it's like good times and

>> if it doesn't get signed off you're like mighty close >> so close because if you invest in the upfront you'll pay dividends in the back. Like >> I spend like I would say >> probably about 70ish% of a project's duration is in that strategy, creative direction area so that by the end of it you are just not like you're just executing but like you have got such tight guard reps. You know exactly what little >> sand pit to play in. Yeah. And so you know exactly what not to as well which is just as important and it means you're way more efficient when you're designing >> for that presentation.

What do you think about so for those people who find presenting work too scary like just it is a massive hurdle for them >> and they're like can't I just send the presentation and then what if I write the story on an email like but how would you what kind of advice would you have for them to try and get them to present because >> I've spoken to people on uh about social media and about getting your facing on camera before and I've suggested things like just get on your try and get on your story like once a day and try that for a week and see and then by the end of the week you're going to feel so much more confident just being on stories because it's temporary, right? There's no you're not it's not on the main feed. It's not as big a deal >> and then eventually Yeah, exactly. And eventually they're able to to branch out and get on the feed. But with presenting like would you suggest like is there is there any >> kind of um what do you call them like a what are those wheels you have on your bike? >> Stabilizers. >> Stabilizers. Are there any train wheels? Yeah, training wheels. Are there any like training exercises or something that rather than someone just going balls deep straight into >> Well, I argue I don't know it. I don't know if there are, but like because I I've gone backwards in that sense. I my first time ever presenting was in front of people up on a stage basically. So like that's the worst way to do it. [laughter] Like that's the hardest and scary. So it's been exposure therapy for me. I've gone and then now I get to do it behind a camera, behind a screen. So like it's technically even easier for me. So, I mean, I would argue that probably at least recording it, right? Like be like you don't have to because it is a bit sketchier, but I I kind of like the rush of it. I get a little bit like I quite enjoy feeling nervous and scared, which sounds really stupid, but like it's a buzz, man. I used to work in kitchens, so it's kind of the same like this pressure of like horrible pressure. Holy [ __ ] the adrenaline's quite nice. So, I feel the same on a presentation if it's live. Like if that person is genuinely there on the screen with me and I can see their face and I'm going through the slides and I can see their reaction back and I'm like is it going well? Is it not going well? I quite like that. I don't but I can't always do that like again where I'm working with so many clients from like all over the place. Sometimes we just can't get on a call but I'm like I'm really like conscious like no I need you to see this now. So like just recording it like where it's just you a camera there's no one else.

>> You can just like do it again if you can just do it again. Loom's pretty good. Not to shout on Loom. They're not sponsored of the show or anything, but like >> they could be >> could be if they're listening. But Loom's really great because you can edit it afterwards in the platform. Like it's really great. Like it will film the whole thing and if like if you stumble or make a big like boooo moment, >> randomly say something complete, I know racist. >> Yeah. If you say something horrendous, [laughter] you're like, "Oh my god, I need to remove this thing." >> Say that out. >> You can do that. Loom allows you to do that like literally in the flight and then you can just send a link to them. So that's quite nice like it gives you an opportunity to take control. I also think it helps you ultimately charge more money like that make you're more valuable at this point like >> it adds to experience doesn't it? It adds to the experience to the client.

>> That's the entire like if again I mean just look at it from a from you know experience. People ask all the time that's like a whole other podcast episode we will get on to is about like money side of stuff but it's how can I charge more? You kind of got to do more. You kind of have to do you have to be more than just you are a designer at the minute. It's just >> you jump on one call with these guys or you don't even jump on a call. You're just getting an email brief kind of type thing and then you're going away in isolation working on something you think is good and then you're just sending it. Yeah, that's worth x amount. I'm worth x amount more because I will, we're going to be doing three or four different presentation calls which need paying for and then there's presentations inside of those and then then there's all the work that comes out on the other side of it. Like so you're paying for that. So then when I obviously then send the proposal across to my client, they can see all that. They're like, "Oh my god, like we're going through this stage and then this stage and then there's this that's going to happen and this it's not just I'll make your logo, give me a couple hundred quid." It's, "Oh, we're going to go through this entire process together to get to the end result. I see where the value of this thing's."

So maybe you're in that maybe listening, you're like, "Yeah, shit." Like, I don't really even present the ideas that much. Like, I, you know, it is a bit simpler of a version. Like, it's like my my process sounds a lot simpler than these boys. These boys are like, "This sounds really complicated." But that is how we can make more money. Like, there's no like secret like little thing that we're doing to make more money than anyone else when it comes to designing. Purely just more work to be done.

>> Yeah. But I think it there's there's two other reasons for it. Not only does it allow you to charge more, gives your client a better experience, it get it certain like increases your chances of being signed off first time by there's no tangible amount, but loads in [ __ ] tons more chance of being signed off early doors. And also I think for your work to stand the test of time. And I think that that is what we all want. We all want to die with some of our work still out there and still being used. Like that is the coolest thing ever. Like >> I don't know chiseled into some stone would be like sick, right? And I think if you do all that upfront work, understanding who the who the work's for, where is it going to be used, how long is it going to be used for, what platforms this, that, the other, once you have all that information and you're able to design for that solution, design a solution for that problem, it's more likely to stand the test of time because these solutions, you've worked with your client to understand what's coming next and stuff. So I think like when you are just I don't know you get a DM on dribble or whatever and I need a logo tomorrow 300 quid what have you the chances of you nailing it first time and it lasting are much lower than if you invest the time with your client and and understand what it's for who's for how is it going to >> so there's loads of benefits. Yeah, there is.

Dude, another benefit of not only getting your work signed off, by doing it this approach, by taking this kind of approach and presenting your work and even starting to think to this much detail now about your own process, not only arguably you get that byproduct of it potentially being signed off and get through it quicker and all that kind of good stuff, but like it makes you a arguably such a better designer because what happens is I'll explain exactly like this. If I give you a bunch of ingredients to cook a meal and they are they're crap ingredients, they're cheap ingredients. I give you the very little that you need to make a particular dish, you can only do what you can do with those ingredients. Simple as that. If I give you access to the finest ingredients on this planet, the best most organic stuff, all of the tools you possibly need, the best knives, the best ovens, the best technology to create that dish. Like your dish is going to be better. Simple as that. Math is the math. Same thing with this. If your ingredients suck, you don't have all the information that you need, they're pretty low energy, you've asked a couple of questions at best, why would you think, why would you think that your work is going to come out the other other side of that? Beautiful. Can't happen. You need the best ingredients. You need the best tools. Again, you're the one that's got to figure that out, though. Like, you have to do the work to do that. That's why I said at the start of this, like it might be a bit exposing or a bit crap or like [ __ ] to hear. It's tough love.

>> It is a bit tough love. I mean, like I have only been able to get better because I have had to do all of the work. not been it doesn't just happen. It's not a dream client. It's not a client situation where you you oh my clients love me and that's why I get them signed off and I just hard I work really hard to get the client to sign off. Like I put so much work in to get that thing signed off.

>> I think a thing that you and I uh do and I think a lot of people who um take their craft really seriously is that I think that you know going back to those comments that you mentioned that we see all the time of like my client would have never signed off. My client sucks. I hate my clients. They never suck. like those types of people, you're seeing the client relationship as like a protagonist antagonist situation where it's like my client's almost my enemy and it's like I'm trying to convince them of something like trying to like I don't know pull the wool over their eyes or get them to do something that I want them to do. It feels like quite manipulative whereas >> the way that we see it is that we're sat on the same side of the table looking at the problem on the table together and being like this is how what about this thing? What about that thing? And it's just so much more of like a it's a team thing. We're both in this together. We both want success. We both want the same thing at the end of this project.

>> Yeah. >> We both want sign off. >> Yeah. >> So, let's work together to get there. It's not like we're fighting on other sides of the table trying to get like trying to squeeze things through without them noticing or whatever. Like those relationships always that's what it seems like where people winge about clients all the time. And don't get me wrong, there's obviously nuance to it. There's always going to be just some tricky clients. They do exist. They do exist. But you, funnily enough, you find fewer of them when you put the work in. I had to uh I mean quick little story one I want to say well done great >> I actually don't know what I'm saying anymore I'm still in a [laughter] car coma >> u no it's great I'm sure people will really resonate with that um although again it's a little bit tough love but it's true I think it comes down to an attitude thing >> if your attitude immediately is going into it like Jack said which is just purely like it's just transactionable and um standoff selfish immediately like, "Oh, this is already going to be hard. It's going to be hard." I I say the same thing to my clients. I want to put a bib on. Be on the team. That's what I'm You're not employing me. Yeah. I I I put your bib on. Like you're you're not hiring me as this logo designer like put it out. >> You're hiring me for 12 weeks to be on your team. Like you're hiring me as a member of I'm a member of staff. Like I'm wearing the bib, baby. I'm getting in the mud with you. I want to figure it all out. only way I truly believe I'm going to be able to get to the solution you want. I need to know it like I need to know your world like you know your world. Otherwise, I can't do that. And I've learned that by not doing that a thousand times. That's why I was going to say like like I've had like I had one >> probably about two years ago where like I presented an idea but maybe I didn't ask as many questions I could that I mean they definitely didn't give me as much information. Like this is that like that nuance like you said like sometimes you do deserve >> like we're not saying that like if you're not getting your work signed off it's you wholeheartedly not like there are times where the client is just so hard to work with and I had one which obviously I won't name names I'm not going to be that guy but like jeez like it was one of the most like I couldn't have banged my head against any I tried to get as much information out of him and he just wouldn't give it to me so I just ran with what I could run with and it and it failed like it absolutely absolutely failed. Like I presented it, they didn't like it. So I went away, presented again, still didn't like it. Created more stuff, still didn't like it. And every step of the way, I keep saying like, "What is it that we're missing here?" Like, "Where have I gone wrong?" Again, they just would be like, "Man, we just don't really like it. I just don't really feel like us. It reminds me of this." Like, it wasn't enough for me to go like, "I now know how to solve the solution. I know how to solve the problem." And that's like that's really difficult. So again, >> you do in those situations where >> I bowed out.

>> Yeah. See, but the thing is like when's the time because I think like Sorry to interrupt you. You carry on. I was I I just Sorry. >> No, it's a good point. You're probably asking the right question there. When do you when is enough enough? Like with that particular project. This is for a film thing >> and like they were lovely. Like they're not bad people, but like so difficult information out of them worthy of being able to justify like going away and drawing again and drawing again like Yeah. Yeah. >> And I had to like it just got to a point where like I would ask and ask and ask and really like try and come in at every angle I could with them to be okay why is it not working? What is it that we're missing? And all this and the answers were just were empty. Such empty answers. But I'd go away with what I could because again I was really like I was so scared to like push back even harder or really get a bit like confrontational. I don't want to do that. I can have a good relationship here with this. But, you know, enough became enough when it got to the point where like it's starting to eat up into time now where it's like this isn't becoming a profitable. >> Yeah. You're pushing >> project now. Like I'm having to Yeah. I'm getting projects coming into my emails. I'm like, [clears throat and cough] I'd love to do it, but like I'm now still working on this thing. We're really far away yet. And that's when I had to look and say, look, going to give this one more go and if we can't even get close to an idea, like we're not like we're really not even in the right world or the right camp, then I'm going to have to bow out. I presented and it was they were straight away like nah I don't really like this can we just see another thing like and it's like no you just can't just keep seeing another thing so I had to walk away and say goodbye to the rest of the project but like that's why it's great to then have that 50% upfront deposit 50% like I'd used up that 50% like yeah if I have spent any more on it I really would have lost any money so like that's kind of a hard thing that's like how long's a piece of string for you need to gauge up with yourself like what work have you got currently going on have you got work coming in the pipeline like can you really spend another another five minutes 10 minutes doing this thing or or really are you washed up and you can't do it and unfortunately I was on that project you know like I had >> that comes with experience as well you know I I don't even know how many presentations we've done now over even the last few years like this cuz it's like three or four a project if not more >> and so with experience I think kind of comes to that point where you can kind you know and you know we've heard so many different ways or so many different types of feedback so many different ways of articulating the same feedback we've got I think we've got quite good and we will hopefully continue to get better. We got quite good at being able to like read between the lines, really understand like what they're trying to say because if it is just like don't like it, it's like that is not good feedback.

>> No, like that is not good enough and we will not progress unless you we actually unpack that and like what is it specifically? But um I think now with experience we're able to sometimes like you said there's a client that just will not give you anything else and at that point that there are there is no solution and like you wish them all the best and you know maybe you can try and put them in the right direction of a new creative partner but like then then you become part of their um dust trail of like we've worked with seven or eight different designers none of them know what we know what we want so can we try you? It's like that is such a big red flag. Every single time I've heard that, it's really put me on my heels of like I'm not sure I even want to talk to you.

>> I legitimately I will not I will >> you know there are some instances where maybe they've just worked with some really junior designers and they what they want doesn't match up to the skill set or the expectations or what have you does occasionally happen. I'm I'm actually fed up of adding nuance to everything I'm saying. But [laughter] um you know that's what I'm saying. Anyway, that's a >> I've had enough what I'm saying. too many carbs to to tiptoe around subject. >> Absolutely. I think I think we've absolutely smashed that opic as much as I really can with this. Yeah, with this >> we squeezed a lot of juice out. >> A lot of juice out of it. Look, I think so. I think some takeaways there are gather the right ingredients is probably one of the most important parts of it. Like you can't if you want to get sign off from a client, you can't go go into it with no ingredients, no no tools. And the only way you're going to get them is by getting them yourself, adding more to the process, gathering things before even start putting pencil to paper. Uh, and then presenting ideas, man. Presenting ideas in a in a really well structured way, in a way that again, like maybe it is storytelling that helps you, maybe it's not, but like finding finding some structure to the presentation, taking through it, spending the time doing it. It's just I can't explain how powerful.

>> It's it's been the best thing. It's the hardest thing. It's not inherently what I'm great at. I like drawing, don't love presenting stuff.

>> And the power of it is so it's so powerful to the to the factor of it can sell in bad work. Like if you like is you can't get bad work to be sold. If you're if you're just a good like really good at the craft sometimes that's not enough. Like you need to add in this level of selling to a degree. I mean it sounds kind of mucky but like it's fundamentally what it is. And you can dress it up with storytelling and and craft and stuff. It makes it sound much more palatable. But uh it is fundamentally what it is what it actually is. And >> so you can't you can't settle it in without it. You have to you have to do a degree of it. >> There's no version. There's no way around it. >> There's no way around it.

>> I'm really stoked that for probably the first time in probably about six episodes, we've been able to give some tangible advice at the end of it. Not just like, well, we don't really know what we're doing, so good luck and which is usually what we do. We go, yeah, we're still struggling with that, too. So, let us know if you can help us. [laughter] That's usually how this work. >> Maybe we end up getting chewed up and spat out in a few years. We're like, turns out we didn't know anything about that. But at this point, we've had success presenting like that. >> It worked. >> It works for us. >> It's definitely working. >> It should work for you. >> Yeah. Give it a give it No, >> try it. >> Try it. >> I don't. [laughter]

>> Uh, now >> people, >> we're going to be uh another part of the show that we're doing um that we've introduced is a little bit of Instagrams. These are maybe people, other designers, creatives. It's not just like I'm I'm finding from all over the shop at the minute. All different types of illustrators and creatives, creators of all kinds exciting me at the minute um that I want to share with you guys. So today my um my lovely insp sorry I will absolutely repounce that again. Strongton Design Co. Jerry's from Germany from what I know. I've spoke to Jerry a couple of times. He's absolutely um a wonderful soul and doing great stuff. He's a freelancer out on his own with a wicked studio producing a ton of really intricate, incredible like detailed work, badge works, type work, illustration stuff. Like he's got quite a lovely range of work and he's just doing it all on his own like like arguably out in the middle of nowhere in Germany. So like it's really inspiring to see him do that and keep doing it. And what he's doing that I find really inspiring at the moment that's helping me a lot is his like relentless pursuit of sharing his work online even though he finds it so uncomfortable. He's not like always so pumped about doing it and finds it quite challenging as we all do as creators but like he just keeps going and keeps coming up keeps showing up like his his consistency is unreal online at the minute where he does it. like he's been lush to like like having that in my feed of just like good ultim he loves his craft and he spends so long creating what arguably >> some people would just look at and go like it's just not worth doing that. No, he like he spends the time getting and I love that like like he he's just one of those souls I think in the world that I needed right now on. So it's like >> not only am I inspired genuine by the work but I'm inspired how he approaches the work and that's rare man sometimes like sometimes you get to see that you don't get to see that side of it. Um, so that's been lush. That's been my my week spoke.

>> What? What was his name again? >> Jerry. >> Jerry. Shout out to you, Jerry. >> Yeah. >> Um, mine's a slightly different flavor in terms of um I mean, she is a creative, but the Instagram that she posts. So, her Instagram is Anna Yuinbin is I'm definitely not >> No, we're not good at the pronouncing. >> We'll put it up for sure. and uh she does these fantastic tutorials on like texture and layers and depth of all it's just all this I love this stuff so much trying to make digital feel real ideally like if we could just go through reams and reams of paper and just print stuff out but like different techniques like I haven't got like a certain printer or like raster effects and things like that she just has these really succinct beautiful tutorials on Instagram she does do some some lovely artwork herself and lovely creative, but I've learned so much and like just realized like how powerful some of the tools that we have at our disposal are. And I'm just like just love the transparency. That'll do the thing. [laughter] So much texture, so much humanity in it. And I think, you know, it's one of the kind of founding principles of this podcast is like humanity and she has it in spades. So, keep doing what you're doing. I love it. She's based in California and uh yeah, fantastic tutorials. Yeah, I think it's God's work to be able to just not only share with people your work. That's a tough thing to do. But to show people how you're doing it purely for no other reason than like, oh, it'll help someone else out. They'll get to see how I do this stuff and it'll like solve problems for them.

>> Oh man, you're a legend for doing stuff like that. Like that's what I mean. Like anyone in that space doing that, that's why I really love what Jerry does. Like he's just showing us exactly what it's like to run this [ __ ] on his own and even put his hands and be like, well, like I'm finding this proper difficult and hats off to you, man. like anyone's showing the realistic side of stuff, showing the ugly stuff like and that's exactly what like the tutorial side of stuff like showing people how to get to the result isn't always the most beautiful thing.

>> And and you know what it doubly aligns with the podcast cuz it's ungateing. >> Yeah. >> It's it's she's got secrets in these tutorials that I've never seen before. >> Anyone that's willing to show us that sort of side of stuff, >> we're pro ungateing. >> Yeah. So they're going to be probably that's probably going to be quite a theme of every time we do a little Instagram moment. >> Most likely it's going to be anyone that's Yeah. just willing to just uh share share what they're doing and how they're doing it and why they do it >> is awesome. So, brilliant. Right.

>> Question time. >> Question time. >> Let's do it. All right. So, >> yeah, I don't have any YouTube. >> I've got the question. >> Where's this from? Is this from YouTube or >> This question is from Spotify. >> Uh so, the question is from Brandon and he said, "How do you balance the business side versus the creativity side? I enjoy spending time on the creative side but always drag my feet through the logistics that are involved with running a business. Excited to hear both your thoughts on how you both approach this.

>> Good question. Good question. I mean I think inherently creative people suck at business. I think that is those kind of left brain right brain worlds. It's hard to gel them.

>> Um but it is a necessary evil. I think um I've kind of become I kind of sometimes enjoy it now. I used to find it really difficult because it's definitely I mean I'm uneducated in both fields. I have no design, no business qualifications. So I'm completely useless in both. But I have like a innate passion for design which has given me the fuel to learn through self-initiated study through like you know YouTube books what have you. But then you do need the the motivation I kind of try and use that motivation to be interested in the business side because without the business side I don't get to do that. So I try and like split that passion in half and be like I got to get through the business stuff in order to do the creative stuff which is my joy. So it's a necessary evil but I kind of as a result have like well I come from a marketing background so I actually do enjoy that and I also really enjoy psychology and a lot of business is psychology. Like pricing psychology is fascinating. I absolutely love that stuff. So, um, yeah, I mean, it kind of like it tips its toes on onto parts of my personality that or parts of my interest that I really enjoy as well.

>> So, I try and lean into those. Uh, but fundamentally without it, another thing actually I'd like to say actually on that is when I used to work for someone else, and I'm sure anyone who's listening to this who does work for someone else, there's a part of your job you don't enjoy, and that might be time sheets. Yeah.

>> Or I don't know, the list is endless. I had so many things I hated about every job I've had. [laughter] But um if that is the bit that you don't like about your job, I'd bite your hand off every single day. It's like if the hardest bit about the job or the bit you don't like is the bit that makes you the money and that's you know maybe you got to drag your feet through it. Like then you know again it kind of goes back to like what we spoke about in a different podcast about how bad you want it.

>> Yeah, that's that's good. That was pretty much which is which is I I don't like doing any of the business side of stuff really. Like I'm not I don't that doesn't get me excited. Like I I still do drag my feet through it, >> but I've just come to accept that >> going to drag my feet through it. Like I don't think there'll ever be a day that I don't drag my feet through it. But like again, how much do I just want to make sure that this is my job? how how I really really really really really want it more than anything in my world is to be able I want to be able to >> put a roof over my head because I'm a creative being. Like I want that to happen. So if I have to do the business, I just do the business stuff. Like I don't enjoy it, not pumped about it. I'm not never excited about it. But it is what's needed. Like that's the cost. So I just pay the [clears throat] cost. I pay the toll. It is what it is. Like I just like you I wish I could say to you like oh I'll I'll do a bit of this to get there. just like it isn't like that for but like if you really really want to do it and if you don't then it isn't it just it just might it might not be for you it might not be the right thing being a creative business might not be your thing if you really hate >> if it is just creative that you want to do with all of your time then it is just about joining a studio or an agency >> yeah yeah like and >> you know >> see there's been times where like that sounds so [laughter] >> yeah I mean it's almost daily or weekly there is a thought of like this is quite hard actually >> I'd love to just I was on a train, walk up to a studio with my lunch, walk in, someone goes, "Right, s you're just doing this today." I go, "Sick, thanks. >> See you in six hours." >> Steve, Sarah, >> sit there. Yeah. Headphones in all day. Sat in a meeting. Got bored. And I go, "Do I go home then?" I go, "Yeah, go home then." I don't have to do anything else. No, >> really. And they go, "Yeah." See? >> Oh my [laughter] god. Sometimes, bro, sometimes that sounds incredible. Of course it does. Like there's not a single moment of any part of my day that I'm not doing something for business. Like that's the cost and I'm all right about that.

>> Yeah, you've made it much more simpler than I did. How bad do you want it? I mean, so what I'm realizing with this podcast is the amount of stuff that overlaps like all of these different things like perfectionism and imposter syndrome and like how bad you want it. And it all kind of comes down to like it is really it going you have it's you have to sign up for all of it. can't just have the creative side and be self-sufficient.

>> No, that that you might stop listening as of today after that because you'll be like, "Well, I'm never going to >> This is what this is for is to talk about the business side, too." >> Yeah. Yeah. We're going to talk about obviously Yeah. >> We want as many people to be running their own thing. I think if they're in that way inclined. >> Absolutely. I would argue these days people say, you know, that having a job is being stable, but a lot of people >> that was invented by capitalism really. I think just to keep people in the pens and keep people where they want them. >> I'd argue you're more stable looking after your own thing. You're in control of it, right? And not >> the idea again of like going into work, but knowing that Ben running the whole show. If it Ben doesn't do his job, I lose mine.

>> Yeah. Or Yeah. The brand goes under. Yeah. >> You get sacked, they make the they make you redundant. You know, there's so many other ways. And then you are [ __ ] If like when when we're like, you know, if we don't have any jobs coming in, we know how to make money now. Yeah, >> we we've got the skill. We built the skills to do that. And like if you get dropped by any brand or any company that you work at, you don't have that skill to then try and find money again necessarily.

>> Have to find someone that will b you again. Same as everyone else. >> Same situation. It's not as secure as you go. Glam ending, but um >> Right, man. Well, that was a great episode, dude. Yeah. >> Tell me uh where can the lovely people find you? >> CITC o anywhere you watch anything. >> Nice. And you can find me at cj.cooly.design. Really crap URL. >> What would you change it to? Oh, here we go. Here we go. What did I change it to, Jack? >> Uh, what do we go with? I don't know. Maybe a real name. Maybe at >> There it is. Right. See you later, everybody. >> Bye. >> Peace.