He says, "If if it hasn't metastasized to your chest, it can be treated. If it has metastasized to your chest," and then he never completed the sentence. It was dot dot dot and he didn't say another word like it was just unsaid, you know, like like >> think whatever you want. >> It's it's over. You if you can't control calories, you got to figure out another way, >> right? And that's that's what it of course thermodynamics play a part. It's not it's just not that helpful of information. >> Yeah. >> Why are we even having a conversation about my bad diet or my um my health need to be improved by diet in the first place? It's because there already is the problem. I'm not against drugs in general if they can be of benefit to a person in a given situation. I'm against um the idea of uh like mass prescribing a drug to people that really in my opinion should be combined with healthy lifestyle choices.

>> Tell me who you are and what you do. Um, my name is Chris Cornell and I'm a writer, a marketer, a health coach, a father, a husband, um, and a guy that at age 51 um, came to the realization that I was not getting um, what I was supposed to be getting out of life for a number of reasons. Uh, partly uh, due to my uh, lifestyle choices and my deteriorating health. And I made some discoveries uh uh now about 8 years ago. I'm now 61 and I've learned that we have so much more potential uh than most of us ever realize. Um and I'm learning more every day. Um but lately I've been I've been working as a health coach uh for the last year and have been uh seeing my rate of learning picking up at an exponential pace. Um, and I'm I'm surrounded by people in the lowcarb metabolic health community and um, it's really become a large part of my life. And so helping other people uh, discover some of the things I've learned over the last eight years is one of my primary motivations uh, as I as I move forward and uh, try to make the most of the years I have left.

You and I have related a lot on social media and I think one way that is very relatable is sort of feeling like we have an unexpected second act like we had a whole life trajectory that seemed broadly predictable and then a sudden shift and in both cases it was health related although there's a lot of differences between us. Let's go to that first part. What what was going on in your life before and what ultimately led you up to this point in time where you made these decisions?

>> Well, uh, at at the age of 51, I I was at my mother's house. Uh, just I I visited my mom. I was at her condo and when I went into the bathroom, I saw a scale on the floor and I hadn't stepped on a scale in probably a couple of years. Um, and that wasn't an accident. I think I probably avoided them. And I was like, well, here I am in the privacy of my mom's bathroom. I can see what I weigh. And I was I was shocked when I saw the number 278 looking back up at me from the floor. And um you know, I thought maybe maybe 260 would have been uh the most I would have allowed for. So I was really deluding myself. And I I'd had experienced some uh medical problems. Um I I I was definitely um low energy. Um I was way overweight. I was under muscled and I was fatigued.

>> What was your career at this time?

>> I was working in digital marketing at this time. I was um uh do you know I was working as a writer, a digital marketer, uh doing website work, stuff like that. So, a desk job >> uh very very sedentary um and getting more so every year because uh less uh the idea of going for a hike or certainly a run was just something that was not uh not happening. Um so and and you know I I had done some running when I was younger. Um it had been a lot of years since I had done so, but I I remembered what it was like to run and um I would try every now and then to in order to lose weight because of course more uh running uh will take off the weight they said. And uh and you know it was it was a dreadful thing, you know, and then I I was still at the point where running was like a punishment that you did to try to get rid of the weight, right? So, so when I saw those numbers looking up at me, I I I knew I had to do something and uh it did make an impact. I did. That was when I got rid of um uh drinking soda and over the next like six months I took off about 20 pounds. Um and sort of, you know, gave me some awareness of how much the sugar I was consuming was was a problem for me. But it was it was a good two years that went by before I discovered the low carb diet and what it was really about. And that was from a book by Gary Tabs and uh it's called uh why we get fat and what to do about it. And well anyway that book it was three days of having that book in my possession and my life changed um in in more ways than I would realize for a long time.

So, this was gosh, was that 2017?

>> It was uh January 14th, 2018, uh the day my daughter turned 16. We were at a Mexican restaurant and I was reading uh Gary Tabs' book in the waiting room as we were waiting for a table on a Kindle and something went off while I was in that waiting room and uh you know the whatever the the bench that I was sitting on waiting for our c table to be ready and I decided at that point I can still remember it like I'm going to give this a try. um I believe this is going to work. And I it had been a long time since I had that belief that something was going to work. And I I remember it distinctly and I was like, I'm going to eat the chicken and the cheese tonight and that's it. I'm going to do this and I'm going to give it a real fair shake and I I I feel confident it's going to work.

You know, that's a that's such a common theme with virtually anybody who's approaching weight loss that it's just kind of like something either some people seem to pull off or there's me. I don't seem to be able to pull this off. I keep trying it, you know, keep try, you know, doing the things they're telling me. I'm I'm eating less. I'm moving more, but gosh, all I'm doing is just getting hungrier. Right. One other thing you mentioned in the story just now that I tend to find a lot of people do huge longevity changes for is not themselves but often children being part of the mix. Do you think having your daughter with you at that time might have been a a factor?

>> Um, well, I I don't know if specifically it had to do with the fact that she was there for the birthday party, but I've definitely um thought about my family and my kids a lot um and potential grandkids uh that I don't yet have, but um you know, I think that that may very well be the case at some point. Um I've I've I give that a lot of thought. I mean, you you you want to be not only around for a long time, but you also want to be healthy enough uh and physically able to enjoy the time. And some of the best times that we have in my family with my my daughter, my two sons and my wife, um and then the nieces and the nephews is doing things that require a little bit of physical um ability. um whether it be hiking or swimming in the surf or you know whatever it is uh it's just you know having the capacity to enjoy life and not be sitting on a chair or a couch uh unable to do it and so that's very motivating to me.

>> So you had the chicken and the cheese that was it?

>> Yep.

>> And found it wasn't that hard?

No, no, the meal was great and I've never had an issue um you know, especially once I discovered what low carb was about and the reason behind it um which I interpreted as I as I read through Gary's book was um you know I I started picking up on satiety pretty early on and it was something that I know is getting a lot of attention over the last couple of years but back in 2018 I know there were people that talked about it but I didn't see that many people talking about it and the ability to eat a meal or a series of meals that leaves you feeling a sense of satisfaction, a sense of uh feeling good, feeling fueled um and not thinking about when the next meal is coming. Uh that is something that I wrestled with for for decades. Even at times in my life when I wasn't obese or overweight, it was always about, you know, where where is my next food coming from? And I don't have that problem anymore. And I haven't had it for eight years. I mean, maybe, you know, little little u hunger and craving signals from time to time. Um, and of course there's still temptations and and you know there's discipline is required in order to make my lifestyle work, but discipline is a lot different than white knuckle willpower, which is something that I've always found to be finite.

>> Yeah. So, you're you're introduced to the book. Does that open up your world into starting to look up more on it, getting other books? Where did you go from there?

>> Yeah. Well, at that point, I had a a a Twitter account. It was called Twitter back then. And it was it was called uh biggest comeback and I had uh fewer than 20 followers. Um and I was mostly learning from other people in the low carb community. I did some low carb searches and I started following people who had um anything to do with low carb in their in their handle or in their posts and I I found that there were a lot of people talking about this. So I, you know, I followed uh I think I you were probably one of the people that I followed very early on. Um some of the low carb doctors, low carb MD, Dr. Troasian, Brian Lenskis, um you know, diet doctor, like anybody I could find. Um and I I was doing a lot of learning. it. I didn't have a presence on social media uh for it was it was probably not until I had gotten most of the weight off um before I started really engaging. Um although I I was it it started picking up. I mean once you one thing I've noticed is when you share your experiences um other people are usually receptive to sharing back giving you feedback and if you ask people for help or clarification or understanding um most people um are they respond to that in a positive way and I'm actually surprised uh to the extent that that's true because I previously had gone through life sort of you know fearing rejection, feeling like if I reached out with a problem that uh people would, you know, look down on me or feel like uh, you know, not not wanting to share or whatever. And and I found that that was totally not the case. And I and I've learned that lesson over and over again. Um, it's been become even stronger, you know, like ultimately I I did get I go through cancer and I learned a lot more in that part of my journey. But the um but the the I there's so many people that want to help um that it's such a valuable resource for people that um are struggling. Um so so so yeah.

>> Yeah. And this is uh I mean quite literally this is why I like Twitter. I realize there's I realize there's a lot of negatives you could point to with all social media platforms, but Twitter in particular because it was intentionally short form. It felt often like it was such a great place for short questions, short answers, and you're more likely to get an answer from even a prominent figure on Twitter given that they know that that kind of imposed character limit meant that it wasn't going to be lengthy at least at that time. So at that time the concepts of you know we had 140 characters. if you wanted to say more, you had to basically create a thread to it. But odds are a lot of these, you know, Q&As's and just back and forth discussions just felt very well facilitated there, including among bigger figures, which by the way includes Gary Tabs himself. And that that was very attractive. And same thing, I was listening a lot more before I was engaging. And then as I was engaging it was as I you know had more hypotheses around my my stuff. But um one interesting thing that I noticed I looked at your Twitter account just before we started this. You still have a portrait that comes from when an artist from gosh I want to say we first were connecting with him in 2018. I think it was around the same time. He did a whole bunch of illustrations of different lowARB figures, if you will. Did one of me as well.

>> I know. I remember.

>> And we all kind of adopted them uh for a while.

>> Mhm.

>> And over time kind of switched back out to different various other portraits except you. You still have yours from gosh, it has to have been eight years old now, right?

Uh yeah, it was probably it probably was that first year um that I was heavily involved. It was probably towards the end of that year, late 2018, I'm guessing, maybe 2019. But I remember then even back then, you were such a gentle, kind, receptive voice. You seem to really take a lot of time and be thoughtful with everyone you were engaging with. And uh that's that's something that always hits my radar. I'm I'm always I'm a fan of anybody who's looking to engage and be very present for that and who certainly seems to be extremely good faith in their approach with others.

>> Well, number one, I appreciate you saying that. Number two, it's pretty much uh exactly what you project through your um uh engagement on on X and it's it's there's a lot of people that don't engage that way. So, uh I think it it stands out. Um one of the things that I feel about my posts is I I literally type out every word of every post with the idea that I plan to stand behind what I wrote. not just today, but like you know that that's what I believe and my beliefs can change um which you know that's legitimate because I've had my beliefs change numerous times over the last eight years um in in ways that are subtle and other ways that are more profound. But um if somebody calls me out with some sort of an ad homonym attack or or you know calls me a liar um and I don't care if it's just you know some some random person who's got a small account or a medical doctor with 10 different degrees after his name. Um I'm prepared to stand behind everything that I write. Now I I totally I I will say that I make mistakes and I try to acknowledge them but I am not afraid to to to say you know I said what I said because of this and this is this is what I meant and if you don't like it that's fine but um you know my my intentions are are good and I try to be factual um I try to make uh you know posts that are you know helpful, truthful and uh I I'm prepared prepared to stand behind them.

>> Yeah. I I And uh spoiler alert, you didn't stay at the 200 followers. Uh as of today, I think you have close to the same number I have. Something like 60 or 70,000 followers at least.

>> Somewhere in the low 60s. Um I think 61 or two, but uh um uh it's it's flattering to think that that many people have hit the uh the follow button. And um I I try I try to be helpful. Um, I I do get a lot of messages, direct messages and um and emails because I put out a weekly email. Um, I get personal um requests for help um or clarification or what did I mean by something and I try to help wherever I can because I, you know, I I know that this person who's writing me is in the same position that I was eight years ago. um you know, when I had 20 followers and it's um it it's easy to be overwhelmed uh by things and and and there's there's a lot of um there's a lot of posts on social media that um uh are easy to misunderstand, especially where you have people that are um you know, seeking engagement um sometimes uh even if they're being factual. And and the same could apply to me. you know, you you can only emphasize so many aspects of a point in a post uh in a Twitter post. Now we get 2880 character form with the um so we can write more but there's still it's impossible to provide full context in every single message. So I'm I'm happy to clarify um try to lead people on the right the right path and and also you know I'm not a doctor. I'm not a um a nurse practitioner or a registered dietician. So um I try to operate within my boundaries. Um I try not to I try I try to avoid giving advice.

>> I try to share experiences that might be useful and when I when I when I speak in my in my posts I I try to frame it in a way that is this is what worked for me, right? If I were in your position, this is what I might think about doing and here's why. but not you should do this because that often times leads people down an incorrect path. And you're I mean you're everything you're saying is almost exactly what I would say for BM is I do my best to not give advice. And I find as my profile gets higher there's more sensitivity to what people may perceive I'm advising. And so oftentimes I'm even trying to further qualify against that. Same thing I try to say well this is what worked for me. This is what I find other people have also said but a lot of times even then I'm already trying to think of how can I let me give you an example um I'm quite famous for my salt intake right

>> but I try to emphasize that while my you've got kid okay sorry I'm gonna have to reset that Okay, you ready? Everything you said pretty much I can relate to. I myself try not to give advice. In fact, I usually try to state that as I'm doing it. Like I'm, you know, I try to avoid giving advice, espe especially if it's anything medical and just pass the ball to, you know, work with your doctor. If it's nutrition related, then I'll say what's worked for me or if I've heard this is what's worked for this person or so forth. Your results may vary, but there's some things like in the case of I'm kind of famous for my salt intake. I have a lot of salt in my diet. And there have been a number of people who have gone on a ketogenic diet who experienced a lot of what I was experiencing, you know, the muscle cramps and so forth, and like me were ruling out salt because they said, "Oh, I already got enough salt. It's like there's no point. Why why would I bother even trying?" It turns out there's just seemingly some of us that particularly when we're very low carb, when we're very ketogenic, that we just need more. And it may be because we just don't absorb it as well. Um I've shared that I had fructose malabsorption. I say had I probably still do. It's just that I don't have fructose in my diet as much now that I'm pretty low carb. But um that that may be relevant given some science that I've seen. And I share all of this not to get into it into the details so much as to just say when I do it, I try my best to say, you know, I seem to be an exception to the rule, but there's enough people who share this exception to the rule with me. There are a number of other people who seem to be doing better having no salts. Amber Hearn, who I'll have on here pretty soon, uh actually says you should consider not having any salt and see if that works, particularly if you're on a carnivore diet. And that seems to work for some people. I think in general, that's kind of its own advice is keep an open-minded.

>> Yes. maintain a a rigorous understanding that your health can be very individualized and you should start with that assumption at baseline. That's advice I could give and feel confident giving. Yes. Well, I mean like the advice that I usually give is consider this um among other things. Um yeah, just give giving people ideas about what might or might not happen. I mean, it's it because we have so many variables that we're dealing with and when we're doing n equals 1 experiments, uh, you know, you could it's possible that salt isn't the thing that's causing the problem. I'm always looking for like the weakest link or the lowest hanging fruit or the thing that is is the um the critical variable rather than um just trying to repeat what someone else is doing because, you know, I've had people try to I've had people try to talk me into um focusing on my vitamin A consumption, which uh you know, when I look up the bio, I I realize that the person sells vitamin A detox kits or something like that. So, um it's it's like it I believe it might be a problem for for you or for this other person, but vitamin A isn't my concern right now. Um I I've got other things to worry about. And so, yeah, you got to

>> and and it's funny because there are so many times where like the example you brought up, you could talk to that person, they go, "Well, of course I sell vitamin A supplements." The world is underserved right now with vitamin they everybody has a vitamin A deficiency such that the the awareness needs to be raised right and legitimately from their perspective are advancing a great cause and maybe that that's but the catch is that yes you do want to still have an awareness of conflicts of interest you do want to have an awareness of

>> yes

>> what what different parties are bringing with what their worldview view is.

>> Mhm.

>> As as the saying goes, consider the source.

>> Yeah. And I and I'm I definitely understand that everybody is um almost everybody is selling something. Um whether it's a product or their services as a doctor or a registered dietitian or whatever. So, um there's a potential for a conflict of interest everywhere. I look for alignment of interest and uh trying to figure out ways that the things that I believe in can align with my interests and I like having my financial um interests aligned as well.

You know, actually you've given me a great segue because we're paid for by us by own your labs. So this is why I like us because we just basically are private blood testing services.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but I I don't so much push it as much as it was already something I was using like crazy, which is why it was great to expand it, but we're kind of on the soft cell side, which is, hey, it's great if you can use us, but I actually like us being the only sponsor of our own podcast at this time to keep the, you know, the interruptions limited as much as possible. But that said, this is from the desk. Um because what I what I do is I have we have a Slack channel and oftent times when a new guest is coming on they'll say oh we'd like to get in this question and I think this one actually is from Siobhan. You know Siobhan Huggin very well.

>> So uh you've been open about doing a 10K step challenge on social media recently but also that you tried it before and had trouble sticking to it. What did you change to help you keep it up? And what has and what has sticking to the challenge changed for you?

Great question. And I I love following Sabbon and I I love her feed. And I got to say, whenever I see that she's liked one of my tweets, I feel like I may have done something right. I uh it's it it's there's a few people out there on social media and you're one of them, Dave, but it's it's like just seeing a like from that person uh gives me some sort of validation. Um and uh and it's not always it's not necessarily correlated with how many people follow them or or what you know what their global reach is or anything like that. It's about their integrity and and you know what they what they believe in. But the answer to Siobhan's question is I I know that getting activity in my life is beneficial. I've tried it. I've done it. Um in 2024, I think I averaged 10,000 steps a day for 6 months. I didn't keep the streak intact the whole time, but the average was over 10K for six months. And I know I was deriving benefits from uh how I felt, how I slept. Um, it it was it was totally clear to me. And I typically starting in the beginning of November, I slack off big time living in New York where it's cold and dark in the winter. Um, my steps go from commonly 10,000 in the summer down to embarrassingly low levels sitting at a at a desk all day long. I mean, I have some days where they get down to 2600 and and it's just there's no there's no mistaking that it's not good for me. So, this year on January 1st, I resolved to myself, I'm going to I'm going to definitely do 10,000 steps a day for the month of January. And I'm going to use anything I have to to make that happen, including white knuckle willpower. I'm not going to miss. and that I I got through January with no problem. And I did have to do some late night walking um spells on my treadmill um down in Florida after the uh symposium for metabolic health. I got stuck for two extra days and I ended up having to go to Miami for two days was where I was going to fly back home and I had found myself walking the streets of Miami at 11:00 at night um just to get my 10,000 steps and it it takes a long time you know that one of those days in Miami I had uh coaching calls um I'm working as a health coach and I had stacked up my coaching calls because to enable myself to to um attend the conference I had to move everything and so that Tuesday, I had calls from like 8:00 in the morning to uh 7:30 at night, you know, and and other calls mixed in. And so, I got off the the last coaching call and I was way under budget. And there I'm walking the streets of Miami trying to get my steps in, but I was not going to fail. And along the way, I've been working on figuring out some hacks to make the process easier, which is part of my whole philosophy about, you know, like you want to do something that has positive results, but it's hard. You got to figure out ways to incorporate it into your life. So, so I've I've deliberately um I I enjoy walking with uh my wife and uh my daughter. So, whenever that opportunity presents itself, I always say yes. That's fun. Um, I have learned that with more and more podcasts, including yours, um, which yours are very long. Um, I've got to budget some time for podcasts. Well, what better way to do two things at once? Um, you know, previously I I I find it hard. I don't drive a lot um during my regular workday because I don't commute. So, to sit in a chair and listening to two and a half hours of a podcast feels like I should be doing something else. And I've learned already just in the last uh 45 days that I am watching and listening to more podcasts than I ever have before, which is a win. Um and I'm getting my 10,000 steps in. My sleep scores have improved enough that that alone is worthwhile. So, um some other things, um I do resistance training on a regular basis. Um I'm in the gym. I try to keep the sessions relatively short, but uh you know 35 minutes uh you can uh walk you turn the treadmill on and you can walk between sets. 3 minutes is a good interval between a lot of my sets and 3 minutes is uh like 300 plus steps.

>> So when you know you get a couple thousand steps just in a 30 minute workout, probably closer to 3,000.

>> Yeah. I want to I want to go back into the timeline again for just a second.

>> Yeah. Yeah, because there's obviously a big jump here. You went you read good calories, bad calories

>> or I'm sorry, you read uh you read why we get fat.

>> Exactly.

>> But while you're getting into the health space, you're not yet really that into the activity. You you still had a sedentary lifestyle. Is that right?

>> Yeah. I had done some resistance training and in my earlier days I had tried to be a runner but um at age 51 52 53 um I was not doing any uh uh the only thing I was doing was some bench press and some uh some upper body work on the weights but wasn't really wasn't really uh that dedicated or consistent. So, so I was definitely lacking in terms of both activity um cardiovascular and uh resistance training.

>> So since that meal, you're going low carb, you are engaging in Twitter, you're chatting it up with all of us, but the exercise component didn't happen right away. At what point did you determine you were going to start into persistent, for example, resistance training and so forth?

Uh it was after I started losing the weight and I was only losing about five sometimes six pounds a month. So this was not rapid weight loss. Um and I but I started noticing that the weight was coming off and I was like well I better make sure I um protect my muscle but also this is a a real big opportunity as I started seeing the the the mass falling away. I was like, if I can get some definition there, I can I I started visualizing the muscle coming from the inside out and the fat sort of melting away and uh that that I was going to get to this critical point where I started seeing the muscle where the fat was getting low enough where I'd actually sort of see the muscles poking out. And uh um you know, ultimately that that happened. And so it was very motivating to to feel the fat leaving and to start feeling like, you know, there's some hope here for some building some mass and some muscle. Um, and I will say one thing that throughout my younger life, I often times um sort of struggled with feeling like I was undersized in terms of muscle and strength. And I've learned that I probably wasn't the only uh person feeling that way. You know, I think a lot a lot of males feel that way in high school and college. You know, like, you know, there's people that are strong and then there's other people that never really understood the weight room. Um, you know, and be and those who carry extra weight are really pretty poor at doing things like pull-ups or dips because those are body weight exercises. So, if you're carrying an extra 20 pounds of weight um, and you don't have a lot of muscle, the idea of doing a pull-up is is very difficult. Um and and I can say, you know, like like um I didn't all of a sudden gain um athletic ability in my 50s. Um I didn't become somebody different just because I changed how I was eating. Um I can do things now at age 61 that I couldn't do when I was in college. And and I wasn't sedentary in college. Um, I'm just stronger now and fitter now than I was at most of the points in my younger life. Now, I know from a cardiovascular standpoint, I'll never get back to where I was in my 20s, but um, terms of the weight room, I I'm still as I'm as strong as I've ever been in my life.

>> I think you've made two key points here that are really worth zooming in on. The first is it is a known phenomenon that if you're rapidly losing weight, you are at risk of losing a lot of lean mass. And so there is a lot of value if you're somebody who's facing a lot of weight loss. That's really your goal and you're quite serious about it to consider maintaining a resistance training or at least like moving it up if you don't do much in order to preserve your muscle mass as much as possible.

>> Right.

>> Absolutely. and and and you know I I have been talking about BMI for at least eight years. I wrote an article about BMI eight years ago because it occurred to me back when I was losing the fat and trying to build muscle that those are two distinct activities that have the exact opposite effect on your BMI. If you build muscle, your BMI goes up. And if you lose fat, your BMI goes down. Both are good things. Um, but you get penalized with in the BMI for building muscle. And I I just couldn't help but think that how how can you tell people that the the biggest um target is to get to a certain BMI if some of those people are going to lose muscle in the process and make themselves less healthy while taking credit for becoming more healthy, which is not necessarily the case. You know, obviously you want to get rid of the body fat. Um uh so so anyway, I I and I and I was always bothered by the fact that like the NIH had a um BMI calculator that was served up to individuals and the BMI was never really meant for individual use. Um it's more of a population. Uh and they basically said that the BMI is a measure of body fat when in fact um it's not a very accurate measure of body fat. it's a sort of a crude estimate of body fat based on you know their their numbers and stuff but um I always you know thought that that more education should be provided people and now working as a health coach I've I've worked with well over 200 patients in the first year as a health coach at Odia Heart Health and the uh importance of building muscle and maintaining muscle is one of one of the top priorities that I feel I have as a health coach. Um getting people to understand that just because you're 60 or 65 or 70 or even older than that. I have um I've worked with at least uh one patient in her 90s and I've worked with multiple patients in their 80s and they all have been um they've they've been talked to and they understand the importance of resistance training and they're doing it. So that's that's something that should not be missed by people that are trying to lower their body fat.

>> And this gets to the other thing. So I mentioned there was two.

>> One of them is

>> you you were pointing out that it wasn't an overnight thing. You didn't suddenly lose weight, become, you know, much stronger a day later, a week later, a month later. It takes time. And just because it's easier when we're younger to do things like put on muscle, that's not a reason by itself to not do resistant training in the same way that you're talking about with older folks. Not just to try to gain muscle, but just to preserve the muscle you have. It is so relevant towards your likely survival and particularly your health span. which kind of gets back to what you were saying at the very beginning, which is, you know, just with family alone, being able to do things, being able to move things and lift things and for that matter keep yourself upright.

Absolutely. And, you know, you just said that this doesn't happen overnight. It takes a long time to get to some of these goals. Um, with my weight loss goal, I told you I was only losing five or six pounds a month, which I I've learned is is not fast enough for a lot of people. Um, a lot of people are much more impatient than that. And I came to a revelation uh inside of uh certainly inside of the first 45 days of of my being on a low carb diet. I realized and this was a very important point to me that this was working for me. I knew it was working. And I I I figured out that how fast it happened didn't matter. Um because this was not a destination to August 25th when I was going to reach my target. I was going to be on this diet for the rest of my life. So if I had only if if I was told I was only going to lose two pounds a month, I don't think I would have been overly depressed. Maybe I would have been a little bit um you know frustrated at this at the amount of time. that, you know, if you're going in the right direction and you know you're you're making progress and you know you're going to stay on this basic diet for life, um what more do you need? It's it's if you've been listening to my podcast, you know this is a place where I get pretty vocal because I can appreciate we want to celebrate the biggest success stories. I don't like how often they become demotivating for the more realistic trends. Your ultimate comparator is yourself. That is your ultimate comparator. So if you're, and I especially want to say this to ladies because often they go on a diet with their husband, their husband's like dropping the weight like right away, so forth. And you just cannot expect this like linear weight loss journey in the same way that you can't expect it on the muscle building side. I've been I've been doing Dr. Ben's thing for I want to say two and a half years now, something like that. and it's the strongest I've been in my adult life. But I'm not jacked. It's It doesn't matter though. To me, I feel so accomplished not letting my muscle mass possibly atrophy more by all of the, you know, the sitting at the uh the desk. I could take more time and get even greater gains. But as long as I know I'm at least making some comparative uh advances for as little time as I'm putting into resistance training, but that I'm not not doing resistance training. To me, that's that's a success. And I can just continue to compare myself to myself to the degree that it's it's, you know, helping me out.

>> I think that's very important. Um you you have to come to the terms with the fact that in life um there's always someone who's bigger, stronger, faster, smarter, has more degrees um can more money can absolutely and and then you also know that um for any of us it could theoretically end tomorrow. Um so we're trying to make the most of what we have and that's what what we have what we've been given. Um, I don't know. I I think that very early on because of this community being so supportive and um and helpful. Part of my job as a writer, I I reach out to people and write articles sometimes for Low Carb USA and SMHP, but for other and I I have other clients that are not in the health space, but I always I'm always reaching out to people and trying to learn from people that know more than me and in many cases have accomplished so much more in certain areas than I'll could ever dream of accomplishing. like I've, you know, talking to uh somebody like um ultra marathoner Zack Bidder and getting fueling questions answered and he's speaking to me as a guy who was at the time training for his first half marathon. I had never run more than 12 miles in my entire life and he's giving me answers and he's a guy that ran he set the world record in the 100 mile race. He ran 100 miles at a pace of 647 I believe it was if I my memory

>> serves fast

>> and and right right uh in you know over the last three or four years at my best I can't break seven minutes in a single mile. Yeah.

>> So that means that if I met Zach at the 99 mile um I wouldn't have been able to keep up with him for the last mile if I was fresh and and had a bear chasing me. And um yet I don't use that as a a demotivator or a way to say, "Chris, you suck at running." Um not only is Zach better than me, but so are millions of other people. And when you run a marathon, which I ran my first full marathon with my wife um in Los Angeles in 2023, and there are people that are running ahead of me who I look at them in their their there there's people in their their 70s, in their probably older than that. There's people that are missing limbs. There's there's there there are people that are overweight like by by 30 or 40 pounds that are just plugging along. And you know, it's it's so they're all around you. You just have to, like you said, you have to make the most of what you have and get the best I've got to get the best Chris that I can possibly get and um, you know, balance all the things in my life to make my life as rewarding as it can be. You know, I I want to get back into running, even if it's just, you know, total hobbyist level. Part of what is hard to convey to somebody who's never been in a marathon or even a half marathon. I think most people can comfortably do I shouldn't say comfortably, but realist a realistic goal is to do a half marathon. It's not that bad. Takes some amount of training. You want to be sure you do the training so that you know you don't injure yourself or have a miserable time. But there's uh for example a program called walk run walk or run walk run whatever. And basic it's quite literally they they're jogging for about a minute and then it's off for about a minute and then jogging again for about a minute and it really lowers the risk of injury. It uh and you still train for it. You still got to be trained up enough that you can do it. And then they'll have like pacing and sometimes they'll do it in like a group. But the experience of it I think is worth people trying. Now that you've done it, you know what it's like. It's seemingly simultaneously one of the biggest communal moments because you're just in this gigantic herd and at the same time very solitary, right? You're kind of also just in your head. You kind of have to be because the thing a lot of people don't realize, particularly when it comes to running, is truly, this may sound bizarre to somebody who's not done it. Truly, it's like 98 99% in your mind.

>> Agree with that.

>> You do have to have the body that can take you over the finish line, but it's such a head game. It's just impressive to me how often I'm wanting to convince myself to stop or slow down or quit even just tiny micro doses.

>> Think I think you're right on. And uh I don't know if you're familiar with Tommy Rivs. Um he was a um very successful marathon runner and he developed a form of uh cancer and he nearly died and he he was you know his body was devastated by the treatments and um you know he's he it was um the point where they never thought he was going to be able to run again and he ran the New York City Marathon. um after going through this cancer treatment and I think he took I mean it was like I I can't even remember it was probably like nine hours or something like that for him to finish. It was like involved

A lot of walking, and you know, it just shows you the, um, and he's still doing them, but he'll never be back to where he was. I mean, he was, uh, he was a top marathon runner. But anyway, my, I, I'll, what made me think of him was he has a sort of a, um, philosophy where when you're running, when you start visualizing the bad things that are going to happen to you, you got to put that out of your mind, and you got to think about how you feel right at this moment. Am I in pain right now? Don't think about the pain that's going to happen next mile, or the mile after that, or the mile after that. Just keep doing what you got to do and taking it one step at a time. And that's sort of an analogy for what I was saying about the weight loss, you know, like when you weigh 260 pounds, as I did, I had lost a lot of weight, but I still had a lot of weight, a lot of weight to go. You can't be frustrated in the, this, the scenario that you're in. You've got to understand that you've, you've got to get through this point just to get to the next point. And so you can't, you can't let depression or sadness or self-pity, um, interfere with just taking that next step and knowing if you're able to make that next step right now, make it, and then make the next one, and then the next one. Don't worry about what's going to happen, like, later on. Just, just get through now.

Yeah, it's, um, it's, I, I think it's great mental training. I really do. And there's also just something kind of exciting, but also nerve-wracking about that day is not going to move. It's going to be that same day. You need to, you need to come with your best game for when that day arrives. And there's just all these other people who are in the same circumstance as you are. They get in the corral that's, you know, matches their speed as best as they can. Fires off. You have the start, and then it's just a long open route until you can get all the way to that shoot on the other side. And, uh, it's a feeling unlike anything else.

One thing I learned about training for that marathon, the one that I have done, is that if you do the training, it's, it's very, um, textbook. It's very like, you can, you can plot out the training in advance. So you can have the whole schedule laid out, and all you have to do is worry about today on the calendar. And when you finish that one run that's for today, you put a line through the date and you enjoy the rest of your day. And then tomorrow, you put a line through the next day. If you do, um, check off every box that you were supposed to check off, um, and it's really not that hard when you take it one day at a time. When you show up on the marathon day, um, it's surprisingly manageable. Um, if your goal is to finish the marathon. I mean, if you, you know, I don't have any experience, uh, with, as a, as a top, uh, runner by any means, but if your goal is to run an entire race, um, you can do it just by, um, being methodical about the training.

Which is the vast majority of people in a marathon. We're just trying to cross that line.

Yeah.

And it is nice when we can set a PR, which for the uninitiated is personal record. Uh, that's nice, but again, it, it's another venue that does provide the means of making comparison to yourself because there's so many people in the race. It's unlikely any of us are one of those competitive runners that's actually going to set a record, even for their age class and so forth. It's okay because again, you're in this big herd of people who are all running their own individual race for themselves. So, let's go back to timeline for a sec. At what point did you determine that you wanted to be more engaged than just chatting about this on social media and literally help people in their health journey?

Um, let's see. Well, the, the first thing I, I, um, early on in my journey, I remember reaching out to Dr. Tro Collegian, who has a practice in, um, uh, the state of New York, which is where I live. He's about an hour away from me. And, um, I reached out to him on, on Twitter by direct message, and eventually that led to a phone call, and we started talking about some things, um, you know, marketing-wise, and, uh, um, things about, you know, I was curious about what he was doing with his metabolic health practice, and he invited me to come down and talk to him and see the practice that he was about to launch. And I did so, and we had a long conversation. And I remember hearing, we were just talking about running. I knew that Dr. Trow had lost 100 pounds and was, um, uh, currently training for a 5K race, and his goal was to break 20 minutes. And I was thinking how remarkable that would be. Um, and when I went down to speak to him, I was asking more about the, uh, about his progress and whatever. So he had, he had probably, he lost more than 100 pounds. So he was, he was very overweight. And, and I remember after hearing where he was in that progress, the fact that he was opening a metabolic health clinic in a retail, um, uh, uh, site that used to hold a chocolate, um, chocolate store, which I thought was an interesting little angle. Um, I had some experience working in PR and marketing. So, as I was driving out of the, uh, uh, my trip with my meeting with Dr. Tro, I called up an old friend at, uh, the Westchester Guanette newspapers, and within five minutes of just conversing about Dr. Trow's story, um, and this was, this was just me calling. I, this was not, um, I was not engaged, um, with Dr. Trow. I was not working for him, and this was not a, a paid pitch or anything like that. I just found it so remarkable that, um, within five minutes of talking to this, uh, reporter, um, she was sold, and she ended up doing a story on Dr. Trow, who ended up breaking 20 minutes in that 5K, and, um, his story got picked up, uh, nationwide by, uh, uh, USA Today. Um, so I was always intrigued with the telling stories and trying to, you know, I, I knew that he had a remarkable story, and it turned out that it really got legs and got, um, you know, reached a lot of people. Um, so, um, anyway, I, I did, I did end up doing some work for Dr. Tro later on, where I was doing some writing and stuff like that for him in the early phases of his, of his business. But ultimately, I ended up, uh, getting connected with, uh, Doug and Pam at Low Carb USA, and for the last, uh, oh, five or six years, I've been writing articles for them. And, um, so that's sort of where I drew a lot of my motivation was meeting people that knew a lot more than me about metabolic health and, um, and therapeutic carbohydrate reduction, and trying to figure out ways to spread the, um, you know, doing the best job I could to, to number one, uh, tell the stories, learn more in the process, and become a better spokesperson for, um, you know, getting the word out. And along the way, I got my metabolic health practitioner accreditation by the Society of Metabolic Health Practitioners, which is a very good, um, way to gain, uh, education in those fields of metabolic health and, uh, carbohydrate reduction. Um, and that ultimately led me to, um, wanting to learn more about being a health coach. Um, because I thought that being a health coach was going to be the best way for me to reach people, um, who really wanted to learn more about how to get more out of life through lifestyle decisions and things like that.

You know, I want to talk about health coaches because I feel like it's almost not a strong enough term. I don't, I feel like it's such an, an unsung heroic action, truly. Because I think a lot of people themselves believe, "Oh, I've seen the cliff's notes on a low-carb diet. Okay, I'm going to do this from now on." Often underestimate how much there are things in their life beyond the grocery list. There is social structure, and their family and friends. And I think it's constantly underestimated how powerful those things are. There are routines in how they eat and when they eat, and what that associates with, with say, places that they eat around them. But in particular on the social front, there's the family themselves. And if you are the one person in your life who is trying to, uh, adopt therapeutic carbohydrate restriction, you're feeling a bit of a challenge because of how alone you feel. And there's just, there's no denying the fact that you, uh, many people, certainly I would argue most people, benefit in that scenario with having at least one other person that they're in regular connection with that cares, actively cares about their success metric. And it's not as simple as just having a doctor because doctors are busy. You can only see them so often. Uh, what's the in-between? If you don't have, if you don't have a family member who's going to do this with you, particularly your spouse, if you don't have a doctor who can see you, even if they're a big believer in the diet, how do you get that glue? How do you make it happen? Right. And one thing that I've learned a bit more about from talking with folks like yourself is often they're thinking in terms of, "Oh, well, there's, there's just this one person," and, you know, it's no different than the personal trainer with like exercise and so forth. But actually, a lot of times I hear a lot of success is the coach can connect them to groups under the coach, and group check-ins are fantastic. Oftentimes, you're not feeling as accountable to the coach as you are with each other. There's a whole bunch of other people who you feel such camaraderie with, and you end up caring a lot about fielding that success for them as much as they do with you. And until, until that's like truly unlocked, you don't know what kind of an experience that is and how much success that could bring.

Absolutely. I mean, I think that support, in whatever way that you can find it, is one of the biggest predictors of success when it comes to lifestyle changes. And it's all around you. It's, it's available if you, if you know where to look. Um, I think, um, I mean, you're right about a health coach provides a lot of different things. Um, I, I think having, um, I, I realize it in my own life now how, like, blessed I am to have as many people that I can reach out to and who support me in one way or another. And that is what I would, um, encourage, uh, people who are going through the journey and, and people that I work with as a health coach, patients in the Ovadia Heart Health practice. Um, we, we encourage them to, you know, that's definitely, uh, part of the process, uh, that we go through, you know, like, are you getting support from your family? Or, um, and, and support is great. Sometimes they get the opposite of support, they get antagonism. And, um, that's very difficult. And there's a lot of reasons why people, um, are less than supportive of someone that's trying to make lifestyle changes. Picture, uh, when the guy gives up drinking, the reaction he might get from his drinking buddies. Um, you know, it's like, they're not enthused that their drinking buddy doesn't drink anymore. Um, or if your, if your spouse likes to drink and you give up drinking, um, it sort of, some people feel like that's somehow points the finger back at them for their bad habit. Um, so, yeah, finding ways to, um, to get that support wherever you can. And like, in, in my life, I'm the only one in my family who is as low carb as I am. Um, others in my family eat very healthy, um, choices, but, uh, they, they eat differently. There's no need that everyone has to do the same thing, but having people that support your decisions and don't go out of their way to, uh, sabotage them. Um, you know, like last night, we, my wife picked the restaurant, but she did so knowing that they would have at least one thing on the menu that I would like. And I got myself an exquisite, um, uh, bunless cheddar burger with bacon and egg, and wrapped in lettuce, and it was delicious. And sounds good right now. Um, so, so yeah, the support thing is, is very important. Um, there's, and you mentioned groups. Groups are great. Um, I know, you know, like on, on X alone, I have friends that, um, you know, in many cases, they've, they've set up little mini, um, direct message groups that I'm part of, um, where that's just, you know, like, there'll be two or three of us in, I've, I'm in several of these groups where I'm not even the initiator, but I'm always like, willing to support. And if, and I feel like the same thing comes back from them. Um, you know, I have, I have people that I meet at conferences. Uh, you know, you go places where people have the same interests as you have. You find people that are doing the same things. And it's just so much easier to find supportive people. It's like, if you, if you, if you want to find people that do what you do, go, go be around them.

It's one, it is one benefit of information technology, and that it becomes easier to interconnect. Uh, but it is true, you're, you're going to ultimately need to learn boundaries if social pressures do have an effect. And it, and again, I think that a lot of people underestimate how much they will be affected by social pressures, particularly when you're, when you're going against the grain. You know, what you said is something I've definitely experienced plenty of times. I'm sure you've experienced it plenty of times. You're with friends who have known you, you have been your whole life, and they're like, "Yeah, we're gonna grab a pizza. Um, what do you want on your side?" You know, something like that. And you're like, "Uh, I..." And you're, you're already hopefully by this point practiced how it is that you're going to say something in response if you're trying to stay good to your diet. But it is true, a lot of times there, it creates a friction, creates a, a tension between you and not just one friend, but seemingly you've, you've isolated yourself, you've othered yourself by saying, "Yeah, I'm just, I'm really kind of on this, this diet kick. I'm trying to stay low carb." And one of the more fascinating things is that I think in the case of diet, it's treated very differently from say, alcoholism, even if they share so many things in common with regard to addiction. So very commonly, my friends and family that are low carb will have other friends and family that will be like, "Oh, but you've been so good. You've been doing great. No, just, I mean, for this weekend, can you just take a break from this, this thing? It's like, it's kind of not really. It's kind of a drag, frankly. You know, and, you know, Grandma made her pie. You, you've always loved her pie, right? It's like, just, just took a couple bites. It'll make her happy. We'll all be happy. You know, it's whatever." You wouldn't do that with an alcoholic. You wouldn't say, "You've been so good for your five years of sobriety. I mean, just this weekend, right? Like, you could take a load off." We have this recognition, the severity of alcoholism took us, you know, a century to get to this point. But even just the average person understands and appreciates the importance of sobriety. I feel like, I feel like diets today are in many ways the addiction that was smoking, that was alcoholism from before, that doesn't have the severity level of recognition for when it's out of control for some people. Now, there could still be a lot of debate as to exactly what's the worst diet, what isn't.

Mhm.

But there's not a lot of debate as to whether or not we're in a pandemic of obesity and insulin resistance. I'd hope that that's not one that gets argued a lot.

Right?

How we resolve it, there's some discussion there, but the bottom line is this. We do have a problem, I think, that could be argued strongly in that we minimize how much diet truly does affect our health. And it's pretty big right now.

It's absolutely big. And it's, um, you know, you know, one thing that I've that I've noticed with myself, which is key to my success, is that I lay out frameworks as to what I do. And, and, and one of the reasons why I share them so publicly on X, I've learned that telling people that I do something reinforces that in my own head. Like, um, the fact that I keep my carbohydrates under 90 grams per day, and at some points I'm trying to keep them closer to 50 grams per day. Um, you know, I'm not, I'm not worried about someone trying to hold me accountable to that, but just for myself, you know, like,

becomes a feedback loop. I consider myself an honest person, uh, someone that speaks the truth. And if I say it in front of 60,000 people, I have less trouble standing by it, you know, like, what kind of an idiot tells people that they don't eat carbs and then goes out and has an ice cream sundae, you know? It's like, I know that doesn't, doesn't benefit me. It pushes me further from my goals. So, um, I do, and I do think people struggle with this early on. Like the person that has the biggest trouble, um, resisting a drink is not the person that has announced six months ago that he never drinks and has a six-month streak. That's a lot easier to keep than the guy who just this weekend is on the verge of like trying to not drink anymore. You know, his friends are like, "Well, you just had a drink last week and you had another one on Wednesday." Like, like you've got to kind of cut the cord on the, on the thing. You can't just sort of have one foot in and one foot out.

Right. Exactly. And therein is kind of the challenge is that the, um, this sense of determining boundaries in an environment where food is not considered to be as big of a deal as I think we should consider it is where it gets to be challenging. Now, for what it's worth, I do believe that the concept of carbohydrates being potentially, I want to be careful in the way I word it. I'm sure you'll appreciate why I'm saying it this way. The concept of carbs being, uh, fattening in the context of being very insulin resistant, right? So, are carbs inherently fattening? I think that there would be a lot of debate about that.

Mhm.

We, you and I know people who are on high-carb diets who are doing fine.

Sure.

Right.

And so this is the, the nuance I'm always trying to draw in this podcast and online and so forth. How we get to the state of insulin resistance syndrome can be debated a lot. Whether or not the seemingly most successful thus far diet that I've seen with regard to dealing with people who are struggling with insulin resistance syndrome seems to be a lower-carb diet, even if not low-carb diet, to me, that evidence seems to be pretty good. That said, there is already a lot of concern that I have with regard to a lot of, you know, it's almost like the low-fat craze in the 80s. There's now a lot of things that label themselves keto, that label themselves low-carb, that I don't know are achieving the same success level as doing it from a whole foods perspective. Uh, let me, let me add to that real quick. For example, I have a family member who is, um, really loves these, this keto bread that they're consuming, but also reports to me their glucose numbers on a regular basis. And my concern is that their glucose numbers are getting much higher because I think that the, uh, keto bread is not truly that keto.

Yeah, I'm not surprised. And I'm familiar with various form, various types of keto breads, and they, uh, certainly have their appeal from a, um, replacement standpoint.

Yeah, from a replacement standpoint. Um, but I find them to be a slippery slope. Um, I certainly, there's all of this stuff is in, in a, on a scale of, of, you know, 300 carbs, uh, to, to zero. And, um, you know, which carbs you eat does make a difference. Um, makes

And this, and this is back where it's individualized, right? So there's people that we know who are on higher carb diets who are doing fine. There could be a myriad of different reasons, but in general, there's not an overconsumption, which might sound like I'm jumping right over into S.E.C.O., but in a roundabout way, I am, at least acknowledging that there, with any diet, there can be potentially overconsumption.

Sure.

A lot of, a lot of folks who are pushing back against the low-carb community would say, "Well, wait a sec. Part of how it is that people are losing weight is that fat is so satiating." Getting back to what you were talking about. And from my perspective, I don't care whether you're, I, I go back to, I like Ben Bickman's statement, which TA has said as well, and so forth, which is, at the end of the day, all weight loss diets are ultimately low insulin diets. Whether or not you're getting there through carb restriction or restricting calories, if it's working for you, that's cool. Whatever that is. But I tend to find that it's hard to accomplish that eating a lot of packaged food, even if it says keto on it, because of these other inherent problems. Almost anything the food industry will kind of start to co-opt if it can sound as if it's a means of successful weight loss, but that's counterproductive to, to the nature of selling food, right? That's what's funny about it.

I, I, I think I share your views. I mean, I think that, um, I've not found a lot of success with, uh, too many of the packaged, uh, keto products. Um, I'm definitely a believer in mostly real whole foods. And I think for each person, it ultimately is a matter of finding that formula that gives the results that, that, that they need. And in many cases, um, I think satiety is an important part of that for most people. You know, getting, getting a meal that leaves you feeling like you have the energy that you, that you need, and the hunger and cravings satisfied. And so, you know, I'm, I'm sure that the conversation will continue for a long time about, um, you know, how much of the, um, uh, you know, the energy balance model or whatever is, is like, we, we, we're going to argue calories in, calories out, and, uh, you know, it's, it's just ultimately, you got to find something that, that works.

And again, it's back to individualized, right? So that, so, uh, I myself will still have packaged low-carb foods and so forth. I have a pretty good sense of where my limits are. So I know about what ratios I can have foods that I wouldn't myself consider to be as healthy as if I had whole foods versus the whole foods themselves. Right? Some degree of that is convenience. Some of it is genuine, you know, enjoyment, whatever. But the bottom line is this, is that coming back around to the recognition of where you're at individually matters. So for the family member I was just talking about who has the higher glucose levels. Okay, it might be too much of that keto bread, and it might be that you could have less of it. Just the amount you're having seems to be so much that your glucose levels are that high.

Right. Absolutely. I, you know, over the last year, as working as a health coach, and, you know, I think I got my sequencing a little bit wrong with, I, I got my metabolic health practitioner accreditation from the SMHP. Um, the actual drive to become a health coach was really initiated by, um, Dr. Rodia's COO, Brian Keith, who asked me if I was interested in becoming a health coach because he knew that I had that certification from the M, the SMHP, and he knew I was very interested in it. And, um, the Ovadia team actually worked with me to figure out a training program specifically geared around coaching that would enable me to join the team. So, um, you know, I, I was motivated to learn all this the education stuff to try to, number one, be able to do my writing work better, and also to help people as I could. But I never really visualized becoming a health coach until I was actually asked if I wanted to be a health coach. Um, but when I work as a health coach, when you talk about individual, um, individualization, I am in this scenario where I get to see all of the patients' medical records and talk to the patient about their sleep, their stress, their resistance training and exercise and activity, their diet, and how all those pieces come together. And, and I do a lot of listening and try to understand, you know, where in their life are they hurting, where are their weak, weak points, and the weakest links where we can make, uh, some small changes that will give a big positive effect. And, you know, like the guy that is doing resistance training, and he's doing the steps in the day, and he's trying his best to stay on the low-carb keto diet, and then he tells me that he's sleeping three hours a night and he can't sit down, um, because he will fall asleep during the workday. Um, I realize, you know, like me telling him to do better with his, uh, you know, with his resistance training is kind of a, not the approach that needs to be taken right here. We need to figure out how to help him improve his sleep. And whatever it takes to get that done becomes the top priority. And then, you know, you can see these scenarios unfold in infinite number of ways because some people, they've got, you know, three different things working fine, but their weak spot is their, um, their addiction to sugar, or, um, or their addiction to alcohol, or, or smoking. You know, it's, it's like everybody's got something that's keeping them from what they want to get.

Yeah. It's, um, it's great because it's another factor where a coach can get greater specialization into better understanding in investigating, if you will. That made a positive sense as to what the nature of the problems are. Again, having somebody where that's their head space, I could see that as just being a big advantage. Let's talk about cancer for a second. Um, do you have a story you might be interested in sharing on that?

Yeah, well, I, during the, um, as I was approaching my weight loss goal, um, getting awfully close to having, uh, lost a total of 80 pounds, um, and this was around, uh, August of 2018. Um, I was also, um, I, I, I didn't have anywhere near the anxiety that I should have had about this, uh, lump that was growing in my neck. Um, I thought that it was a swollen lymph node. And I had a regular doctor's appointment scheduled for like the third week of August. And I went into that appointment thinking that my doctor was going to shower me with praise for dropping that 80 pounds since my last visit, which had probably been like two years earlier. But, um, uh, I, I went in and, um, you know, she, she was, um, she was definitely a lot more focused on the lump in my neck than she was on the weight loss. She didn't even say anything about the weight loss. I was kind of, kind of bummed out. Um, and I, she, she let me, she, she didn't, she didn't alarm the heck out of me during the appointment. Um, I'm not sure why. Um, I, I knew something was concerning her, but, um, I went home, and we were going out to eat that night, my wife and I, and we were heading towards the restaurant, and I got a call from the doctor, which is almost unheard of. Um, in, and I've gotten, I subsequently got a few more calls directly from doctors over the next six months. Um, usually you get a message in your portal from, you know, the health system, and, and, and she called me, and she, uh, she wanted to get me before she left work, or whatever. And she, uh, said that I needed to make an appointment for a CAT scan, I believe it was. And my wife works in communications for a hospital, and she was, she's definitely my advocate, and the person that does all the Google searches for me a lot of the time. But she probably has a sense of what urgency is and what isn't.

And she was, uh, she was a little, uh, a little, um, not, not in a good frame of mind for that dinner that night. But, um, you know, I went and got the, uh, the, the, the, uh, scan, and then I had to get another scan, and, um, and ultimately I, uh, had to get the, uh, the lump cut out of my neck, and then, um, I guess it was a couple days later, I got a call directly from that doctor. Um, uh, this is a little interesting story. I was, I, I had been, I was having a really bad week, right? My, a good friend of mine who, uh, a woman that was in our wedding party, my wife and I's wedding party, her house basically burned almost to the ground. All that was left was like the, the brick, uh, structure of her house. And this was the day after I had the, the lump cut out of my neck. I went to help her, um, look for her cats and remove the singed belongings from what was left of her house. And, um, while I was moving stuff in her house, a garbage truck sideswiped my parked car in front of the house. And this is just my, my day was getting worse progressively, you know. Um, uh, somebody came in and told me that my car, uh, had just gotten hit by a garbage truck. So I went out and I was looking for the inspection or the, um, insurance card to give the police. Um, and, uh,

It wasn't a hit and run, right?

No, the garbage truck was stopped. I, I was getting my insurance card out, and my phone rang, and it was my doctor, um, who, who told me that I had, uh, that, you know, I had cancer. So, um, it just a little lesson in perspective. You know, you think something is about as bad as it can get, and it can always get worse. Um, so, um, so I've been doing a lot of, uh, thinking about gratitude over the last eight years, and I probably will never, um, stop thinking about being grateful for what I do have. Um, so, yeah, I was diagnosed with cancer, and, um, ultimately I went in,

Can you unpack that a little bit? What, what kind or?

I had head and neck cancer, and I had, um, uh, so my lymph node had been, um, uh, one of the sites, and the other site was, uh, somewhere in my throat. And, um, there was, there was some, some real scares in the beginning because when I went for my PET scan, my, uh, lungs had lit up as if there was cancer. And my wife and I had to sit in front of that doctor, um, and it was very grim. He was, he said, um, you know, if, if the, uh, cancer has metastasized to your, um, he says, if, if it hasn't metastasized to your chest, it can be treated. If it has metastasized to your chest, and then he never completed the sentence. It was dot dot dot, and he didn't say another word, like it was just unsaid, you know, like,

Like, think whatever you want.

It's, it's over. And my wife and I got up from that appointment, and we walked out to our car, and it was a good 20 minutes before a word was uttered. We drove, we were more than halfway home before either one of us even had anything to say. And I thought that my days were, you know, very much limited. And so went down and got,

And given the information you're telling me right now, your, your lungs are lit up in the, in the test, right? So that,

Yeah.

I mean, how are you not coming to another like, I'm, given what you just told me, I'm coming to that conclusion?

Yeah. I, I mean, I was convinced that my life was almost over. And, um, I mean, the fact that the doctor didn't, like, literally didn't finish that sentence, um, it, it's like there's nothing they can do, um, if it's metastasized. And so I went down and had,

Can I confirm I heard you correctly? You said this was in 2018?

Yes.

So this was, this was literally the same year that you went on a low-carb diet?

Yeah. After

Engaging in Twitter for the first time. Yes. Wow. What a whiplash.

Yeah. And there was, um, and you know what, though, I, I did a lot of soul-searching, um, before ultimately I went down and had, um, a chest biopsy down in New York City at Memorial St. Ketering, and they went in, and, you know, it was very somber, and even the people around me, you know, they were, I felt like I was like the walking dead. They were very nice, but I could just feel, um, sympathy, um, that I had never felt before. Like, like, you know, be nice to this guy. He's, doesn't have much time left. And, and I'm sure some of that is just the stuff that's racing through my own head, but, um, I mean, the, the, the medical care was excellent, but just, uh, um, you know, there's so much going on, but I, I just, um, Oh. Oh. Well, before I had gotten the biopsy, which ultimately found that I have, um, an un, previously undiagnosed case of sarcoidosis, which I don't know that much about, but I know that, um, for someone like me, it just doesn't really manifest itself with any life-threatening problems. It's just something that I have, or at least had at the time. Um, and, um, so it turns out that that's what was lighting up the scan is this sarcoidosis in my lungs.

Wow.

And, um, so I was very glad about that. I was going to say, you couldn't have been much happier to be like, "Oh, so I have this previously, you know, undiagnosed disease that creates an anomaly with a scan that that could otherwise be mistakenly taken as metastasized cancer."

Yeah. And right at the time that you're looking for that. But, but, you know, and this was, this was not a case of me and my wife misunderstanding one doctor because we, we went, uh, we met the oncologist at Memorial, Memorial Sloan Kettering, and my wife, um, uh, heard something from the surgeon before they told us that I was basically not going to have the, you know, the met, metastasized cancer diagnosis. Um, uh, my wife heard something from the doctor that was a glimmer of hope, and she, in our later that day, we met with our oncologist, my oncologist, and, um, she expressed that optimism to the oncologist, and the oncologist shot that down so quick. It was like, like, I'm, you know, we'll find out when, when we get those results back, you know, she, she was like, um, you know, reinforced the fact that it didn't look good. Um, because I guess in all their cases with that much lighting up in the, um, in the, in the scan, um, it's usually not good. But I will say, before I had the chest biopsy, I did a lot of thinking, and I was, um, thinking about what I was most afraid of, and, um, I realized that it was not as much dying as it was dying with regret.

Mhm.

So, and, and that was kind of powerful to me because I, I felt like, and, and at that time in my life, I felt like I had just gotten to the point where I had taken control of the lifestyle choices, and I was on an upward trajectory, which over the last seven years, I've kind of proven was the case. Um, I felt like if I died at that time, that I would have been leaving so much on the table, not just from a physical fitness standpoint or a, or a metabolic health standpoint, but like that I had had kind of squandered too much of my life, and that I had too much upside left. And I decided that, you know, if I, if I did have a bad diagnosis, I was going to make the most of every day that I had left. And that's been my mindset ever since. So it's like getting, getting a, a good diagnosis was like a new lease on life. And now I've, I mean, I've had people in my life who were apparently healthy, um, and my, my same age, one, one day and not with us the next.

Yeah.

Um, and that's happened to me in the last two weeks. And, um, and I just, you realize that we're, we're all in that potential predicament of not knowing how long we're going to be here. So we really got to, um, you know, really try to do the things that are important while we have a chance to do them. So how awesome was it when you got the news back that it had not metastasized? I'm, I can only imagine. I mean, there's not, you realize there's just not getting back to what you were just now saying, there's not a lot of people who experience what you experience. Not that you would want to put them through it, but who actually do kind of face the void, right? To then confront within themselves where they're at, what they're thinking, what they would do. And that's got to be a very profound experience.

It is. And, and I know you've, I know you have talked to some people that have had experiences that are probably many times more powerful than mine, but you're right. Most people probably don't think about that. And, um, you know, this, there's, uh, I draw parallels in, in people in my life who have had tragic outcomes, and then I meet people that have been faced with almost the identical circumstances who have figured out a way to turn their lives around. People like, I had a friend, employee of mine when I was running a retail business. He was an alcoholic, and he basically drank himself to death. He called, he came into work one, I guess it was like a, on Monday, and he called me Monday night from the hospital and said he'd be back on Friday, and on Friday, I got a call from his brother, and he told me that he was dead. And he, he basically drank himself to death and left two, that he died at age 41. And he left two children behind who I know he loved, but he couldn't control it. And then I go on to meet, um, Louis Ravalo, who is now running ultramarathons, who had almost like a frighteningly similar scenario where at age 40, Louis, I think it was at age 40, I may be off, but I think about about that, he was, um, suffering from depression and and suicidal thoughts, and, and he quit alcohol, and now he's my age, and he's running ultramarathons, and and helping other people kick alcohol. So, it's, it's like, what are those differences that one person is not with us anymore, and the other person is living a productive, healthy, um, life? And that's one of the things that keeps me up at night.

I, It's actually, it's the same with me. There's a, um, we had somebody in our life that took their life not too long ago, and I, you know, this won't surprise you, but we're the only species that we are aware of that voluntarily takes its life in a way that's clearly deliberate and conscious. And you throw in top of that, it's not, it's often not out of some debilitating physical pain, which to me seems much more relatable. You, it, to be sure, there are people who do that as well or seek to do that. Uh, but somebody facing bankruptcy, somebody facing, um, divorce, somebody, I mean, a lot, one of the more fascinating, in the kind of a morbid way, is how much people can't handle embarrassment, social embarrassment to an extent to where they would just feel a, a greater relief, or just not having to face it, is to fully check out. That's, uh, it's, it's tough to recognize that we have this, you know, full frontal lobe that we developed that makes us the apex predator, and yet this is such a substantial number of existing deaths that it's, it's up there enough that it's in the top, I think it's in the top 10 or something like that, uh, percent, something along those lines. But something I've also discussed, um, on this podcast before that concerns me a lot is the dark side of social media. A lot of, a lot of younger folks, particularly young girls, are more susceptible to suicidal ideation. And let's face it, you know, we know how big things were to us when we were adolescents. And now you throw on top of that the, the, you know, the megaphone that is the social media feeling, the entire world is suddenly turning on you, and suddenly that becomes a means of relief that you're thinking is the one way out. Um, it's tough. It's tough. It's not an easy problem to solve.

No, it's, it's, it's not at all. And I don't know. I mean, the mental health, um, system that we have has some incredibly large shortcomings, um, in order to get, um, uh, treatment, even if you have a good medical plan. Um, uh, mental health, uh, often lags behind, and it's, uh, you know, I have some personal experience with, uh, how difficult it is to get people that you care about the right treatment. I mean, you can get them, uh, cancer care, um, which I was very grateful for, but mental health, um, is, uh, it's, it's hard to get yourself or, um, a family member or a friend in front of the person that they might need to see to, to solve their problems. And it can be very complicated, and it's because it's, you know, mental health is not, um, easily fixed with a drug. Um, and there are lots of drugs. We know that. But, um, they don't all have the intended results, and there's a lot of different things. So, um, yeah, and, and we know that the with a lot of these lifestyle factors, regardless of the controversies about what does what, um, lifestyle, uh, can cause some major problems in the metabolism and the mental health and, um, so,

Yeah, and, and listen, we need to we need to talk about that. We will of course be responsible and say that there's, there's no magic pill, no magic activity or anything that universally fixes something like severe depression. But is there emerging data that looks efficacious for some, particularly with things like bipolar? And do, do I seem to never miss a day where I praise, you know, things like, uh, Metabolic Mind for making the strides at doing the research to help us find out? Absolutely. In our documentary, we have a number of people sharing their stories. Robin Dobbins, who I have already had on the podcast, hasn't aired yet at the time that we're recording this, but that'll be up to her, too, uses carbohydrate restriction to work with her bipolar, and just the depths of the lows that she would get to. And she discusses the very stuff we were just discussing, how much she was facing that before, how much that affected her family life and everything else. Now, again, to reiterate, doesn't mean that going keto will fix everybody's, you know, mental health necessarily, but is there likely a huge underserved population that actually would find efficacy, therapeutic carbohydrate restriction, necessarily entirely? It could also be combination therapy that does require another drug and so forth. But is there probably a sizable population? I think no question. I think that that's something we're finding out in real time. And part of the challenge is just that I do, you know, I have to couple this with, I feel as if the wind just continues to blow against keto and low carb in the field of, of nutrition science. I hope that changes.

do too. But I don't know about you, I I do not want to see another study with keto like in its title or another quote unquote low carb that's really, you know, 40 or 50% carbohydrates and yet they're calling it low carb.

Um, I'm just I'm continually frustrated by how much I think there's a good faith effort to find what level of benefit there is with low carb beyond weight loss and especially for the severity of the things we're talking about right now with mental health, particularly depression, particularly to, you know, things that lead to stuff like this that I feel gets derailed by not so awesome science that seems kind of intent to recast keto and low carb in a way that the community itself would not endorse.

Yeah, I mean there definitely there's a lot of opposition to the idea of of low carb being a a beneficial thing and um and it comes from people that seem like they should know better. Um I I think I understand some of what drives their motivations, but um low carb is I you know part of part of my N equal one experiments part of the re you know part of the reasons that I do some of these things um is just like like the 10,000 steps for example part of the reason that I wanted to do that was for my health but I think I could have gotten away with less.

Um, but I talk to my patients that I work with about about doing it and I start realizing that I'm going to be a better coach if I can personally manage to get 10,000 steps in a day because I'm not a hypocrite when I tell a certain patient that they need to do it. And the same thing goes with I mean I do experiments on ketogenic diet. Um, I'm, you know, I'm most mostly low carb. Um, 50 to 90 grams. I get a lot of protein, 200 grams a day or more. But some of these things you you can't, you know, when doctors say that low carb doesn't work.

Um, and then they say dot dot dot if you control for calories. Um like like that was another thing you know like like I I told you about the BMI um issue that I have with you know this this thing about like sugar is not uniquely harmful dot dot dot if you control for calories um like like yeah if you control for calories and you keep the person in a cage and you don't give them any food um it's it's like it's like you can get people to lose weight. We we know that that's not an argument like and and people actually come close to saying that and there been more than a few times when you know like the the the calorie in calorie out argument which always boils down to thermodynamics and and you know I always say to people um I agree with you that if you lock someone in a cage and you don't give them any food they ultimately they'll lose fat. We know that um that's not really the point in a real world.

If people are around food and they get intense hunger and cravings um they they get a intense drive. I I've seen people people in my own family who have proven to me uh I have a brother who has type two diabetes. He's on a wait list for a kidney transplant and he's younger than me by eight uh 10 years. So he's only uh 52. And um you know I've I've seen that the drive for um for calories when you deprive someone from calories is incredibly strong if you don't figure out how to how to deal with that with the right foods. So, if you give someone access to sugar and candy and and things like that, but try to force them to to moderate, um, it's incredibly powerful. And so, you you can't you if you can't control calories, you got to figure out another way, >> right? And that's that's what it of course thermodynamics play a part. It's not it's just not that helpful of information.

Yeah, it why are we even having a conversation about my bad diet or my um my health need to be improved by diet in the first place? It's because there already is the problem. If it was just as simple as me willing willing myself to eat less, that's not a lot of information to convey to me. I can go, all right, all right, I'll need to eat less. Will it succeed at keeping me from eating more? Exactly.

Well, people all the time are saying like I I hear people in the the calorie in calorie out camp who say that one of the biggest reasons that people don't lose weight is because they are unable to calculate how much food they're eating. And I'm I'm like I'm I'm not too bad with math. I'm I'm I'm pretty good at math, right? >> I'm really I I've become even better as a health coach. I can calculate calorie numbers pretty pretty darn well. In all my years of failing on diets, it was never because I was unable to use a calculator correctly or a scale. Um I I could see the food going into my body as I as I ate it. Um it's it's not that easy when you're eating the wrong foods, >> right? >> And it's it's I mean it's like telling someone to simply stop smoking cigarettes. Um they don't want to smoke cigarettes. I don't think anybody wants to smoke cigarettes. Um maybe some do, but >> but you're but it's not helping them. >> Yeah. >> To be the 800th person to be like, "These are bad for you. You know that, right?" >> Yeah. >> And they're going, "Thanks. Thanks for telling me this."

So again, it gets back to this whole the the concept of all right, what amount of information do we need to tell you to get to this point in time that you've got enough in the mental bank that's pure information that will be helpful? Okay. Does that by itself activate the rest of your brain to then put it into action? Right? And for some people it is. For some people, it's like, "Oh, oh, okay. I can all I need to do is keep carbs under, you know, total carbs under 50 a day and then I'll be on this weight loss journey and I'll be like, "Okay, yeah, I can figure that out." And they figure that out and it works for them. They they can just do that. Right now, that said, actually, for most people I know, and I I like to just fit this in because I think for most people I know who try keto, they ultimately come off of keto and go to some version of low carb.

So, to be distinct, uh I would define keto as quite literally you are, you know, nearly fully fat adapted. I'm going to get a bit technical. I like going by RQ or what's called respiratory exchange ratio RER where you are literally a you know 0.7 to 0.75 means that your carbs are so low that really respiratory wise you are truly being powered by fat under those conditions you are definitely powered much more by fatty acids and ketones I like to go by that more than I like to go by BHB for technical reasons but to do that probably are below 30 to 40 total carbs unless you're very active. If you're very active, you can be burning away the the additional carbs above that relatively quickly so that you just you basically just have low hippatic glycogen stores. And that's why you are that fat adapted because you're just you're burning enough to where the proportion of carbs is relatively low even if you're consuming more of But even then, probably not consuming a lot of carbs. Bottom line, you have to work at that. To be keto, you have to really work at it. It's not It's not just that simple as saying, "I'm going to keep my carbs low." It's hard in the modern food environment to eat, even at a restaurant, to not have some amount of carb.

One of one of my favorite stories is when my dad was wearing a CGM. We ate in the IHOP and he had only an omelette and his CGM was growing up and I was like why? We found out that IHOP regularly mixes pancake batter. >> I've learned >> with their with their omelets because it makes it fluffier. >> Yeah, >> we only would have known that because of him wearing a CGM. We wouldn't have known otherwise. But this is a pretty common scenario, right?

Okay. So what I tend to find is people go and and I'm one of those people go well actually there's some modulizing that I can do uh and still maintain the weight I want still maintain the metabolic health I want and feel like I can eat a little more liberally than when I was militant keto and for that I kind of go with more of I think it's diet doctor who one time was saying like 100 carbs or less or I think the more liberal version was 120 to 130 carbs or less. But in to that extent, I regularly say here that I probably bounce between keto and low carb in general. I want to say in the last few days, I've been very keto. But I wouldn't be surprised if this weekend I'm more low carb. And a good example of that for me is like I might have a, you know, a burn a bun with my burger or something like that. Use up that budget pretty quickly. >> Yes, you do. >> Right. But that said, um staying relatively low carb most of the time works really well for me. And there are times where I might be above that. It's like I want to say maybe five or 10% of the time or something like that. But I have kind of my own thresholds that I've been working with this whole time. Um it took me years to understand where those thresholds really could be. But like you, there's an accountability loop. I actually like this. I like this uh podcast for that.

>> Yes. Well, I I I think that you have a great accountability loop. Um I I typically use I I love going on podcasts and I was thrilled to be asked to be on this one. Um I I also use Twitter or X as my accountability loop. Um and when you talk about a carb um level um you know for for people that talk about um you know if you control for calories for me it's really it it has turned out to be just controlling for carbs. Um, >> yeah, >> I have tested this over and over again because of all the people on this planet, despite the fact that it seems like I hate carbs and some people, you know, think that I despise carbs, I would love to figure out a really healthy diet that allowed me to eat all the carbs in the world. Um, >> and be satiated >> and and you know, like if if I could I I love bread. I love pretzels. Um, I don't have fancy taste. Um, but when I get when I eat over 90 grams of carbs per day on a regular basis, I gain weight and I gain more weight and I gain more weight and um I've tested this over and over again. So, I don't need to to be on a um under 30 carb diet, but um when the weight starts creeping up, I have to push the number down um more in the 50 to 70 range um to keep things on track. And and that's me, by the way, that that five or 10%. that I'm talking about where like I'm I'm allowing for it. >> I'm quite aware that I'm going to gain weight and that to circle back is almost certainly going to require me being fully militant keto. >> Yes. >> So, I'm fortunate that I can slingshot back without it getting out of control. But even then, I have a margin of amount about the right amount of weight that is my cap. So, I want to say it's like um I think I average in any given time at around 187 pounds 88 something like that if I remember incoring correctly. I'll allow for getting up to around 194 195 and then it's sort of like the alarms are going off and I'm like all right fine. But the podcast because uh there's the podcast is visual. That's another factor. I can kind of see myself in the podcast more than other people can where I can see what the difference is. for example, I'm I'm pretty militantly keto right now.

>> Well, you're looking great and you're looking uh you're looking pretty strong. You uh I think you sell yourself a little short on the Dr. Ben workouts. Uh >> oh, >> he's doing great. >> And uh and and by the way, uh your your your interview with Dr. Ben was outstanding. And um I just happened to uh mention I think I've probably personally uh uh helped Dr. Ben sell about 50 books in the last year because um every patient that I talk to about Dr. Ben's workouts uh typically hits the uh Amazon buy link while they're on the phone with me on on the coaching call. So, >> it's great. He's great. He's he is such a great character and truly let's let's sing his praises for just five seconds. There's uh there's just a beauty in there being a short enough amount of time for which there's just no excuse to not do it. 15 minutes. 15 minutes twice a week. You can do it. I've got the I got the machine upstairs. It's not doesn't even take up that that much of a footprint in my house. Literally 15 minutes. Literally. And I've gotten stronger in just doing just doing that. 30 30 minutes a week in just doing that. And there's a lot to say for that. I worked my way up to uh I now wear a 40 pound uh sand vest, whatever it is, while up on the plank going on the different end. And the the key is the slower you go, the faster you're done. You're going really slow. You're eventually going to be like >> shaking. I uh I make a lot of sound when I'm doing this. It's it's a uh it can be a brutal workout, but you need to you need to have some intensity if you're going to get results that fast.

>> Yeah. But but I have to say it really does work. And um yeah, I there's there's a part of me that does fantasize about getting past this level of busyiness, which is just getting it's getting crazier, Chris, as I come up to the uh the premiere of the documentary. I mean, at the time we're recording this, it's uh 28 days from Cosai. You're coming to Cosai, right? >> I'm not I don't have plans to come to Cosai. >> Oh. >> Um >> you should come to Cosai. I I would I would love to figure out how to make it happen. I don't know if I'm going to be able to, but um but I love being out here. I love uh I mean, I would I love seeing at you at conferences. So, um if there's any way I can make it work, I will try. >> Okay, all right. It's uh I mean we've got a fairly powerful roster going on. We've got >> I I I'm well aware of who's attending and uh it's a great a great lineup. >> I know I know it's it is I mean traveling for conferences and so forth. I don't want to be dismissive. It's it's you know everybody's got a lot going on but um we're premiering the documentary which we did kind of have a showing last year but some things happened in between. Yes, I'm I'm aware of that. I I uh yeah, it's amazing what you what you're doing with that uh documentary and I uh I I sometimes uh pity the the the stuff that you've had to go through in order to get everything on the right track, but uh um but I also admire all the work you're doing.

>> Well, thank you. I mean look it's I have a kind of a mantra or I don't know a thing I hold at the center of my head which is that um when there is struggle when there is challenge it makes the story more interesting you know so it's you you know getting back to kind of what you were saying earlier we get tested right we we have our moments where only through staring at some heavy opposition or something really dark, do you kind of find out what you're made of? And uh you might surprise yourself in a good way. I hope that's the case. You know, you know, I was just thinking about this earlier today as I was thinking about coming on this podcast, and I love that you just said that about when times are dark and you you've got to your back is up against the wall. sometimes and you've got to um number one reassure yourself that there's something that you can do that's going to make this better. You don't always know what it is and you don't always know how much better better was is going to become. You know, like when when you get a cancer diagnosis, you you have to tell yourself that there's some hope for something and then you get busy trying to go over all the possibilities that there are and what you can do. And sometimes you end up settling for the lesser of evils or the best thing possible and it's still not great. Um, we all know people that have struggled mightily but still made the most of the situation, the bad the bad hand they were dealt. And so that's what I I like I I just want people to understand that um when you don't create that vision that something can be done to make it better, you've lost already.

>> Yes. And and it's like, you know, like when I when I was uh trying to get here to Las Vegas from JFK um on Wednesday morning, my wife and I had a serious miscalculation of time. And as we were getting uh we were still about an hour away from the airport, we realized that um we I sort of effed everything up and uh we weren't going to make it. And um and we ended up I ended up deciding to drop them off at the terminal rather than go to long-term parking and let them get get on the flight and not mess up their tickets and figure out a solution. And it certainly wasn't ideal, but in retrospect, it was a lot better than having me having all three of us sit in John F. Kennedy, John F. Kennedy airport all day long. And that's what it's like. That's a small version of a problem. But, you know, you've got you've got problems that have to be solved all the time. And when they, you know, you just got to make the best of it. Hope and belief is like the important thing for me.

>> Yeah. Well, there's there's gosh, there's a manuscript I'm working on. You may have already heard this in prior podcast, but I'm I'm working on manuscript for the book that will be covering a lot of the last year because the events were it's a really fascinating, I guess you could say, story. >> Yeah. that involves a lot of different elements that I think bring together some important lessons on science itself and just also the landscape of getting a lot of this research done in the social media environment because I I have social media to thank for helping to get together uh to crowdfund it to find our participants to promote the research itself it it's all thanks to social media. By the same token, you know, getting back to we were talking about earlier, there's a dark edge to social media as well, right? And one of the things that I've always and I you've been there from the start, so you've watched in real time as this has happened. I've always been a strong believer in cultivating good relationships with respectful contrarians. You know, people who disagree with me, who disagree with um opinions that I have, but for which I could have a strong dialogue and for which there was a mutual respect for a genuine um agreement on moving towards getting to the truth. And this is I mean this is part of what I've really been zeroing in on more than anything else is that at the end of the day science should be about truth seeeking. Like truly that we're we're all trying to get to the the right answers. And we're in a space in in social media. We're in a space where there's um this is a bit of a pjorative term but I have to stand behind it. I like to call it bumper sticker science. There's somebody who does say a big categorical Yeah. All you And I'll I'll use carbs as a good example. Carbs make you fat, right? I would argue it's not that simple. I can't say it's not, you know, it's the opposite. Carbs don't make you fat. Right. Right. But either of those two are a bumper sticker statement. They're bumper sticker science to me. They're too they're too simplistic and they're ultimately um kind of removing the opportunity for nuance to better unpack exactly what we're talking about, but there are always going to be people that want to get it to that. They want it to be at that level of simplicity.

Well, we we we love generalizing and it makes things easier and there's always times when generalizing can be helpful. um uh you know especially at the governmental level or systematic level you um you know you want everybody to do this thing or that thing and we know lots of examples of where that kind of thinking goes on. Um, but at the individual level, you got to you got to figure out all the little details and the choices and um yeah, it's it's um it's it's uh far better to to really get granular and figure out what works for you.

>> Yeah. And and just to jump to the elephant in the room, obviously the very thing I'm researching, there is such a concept in mind. There's this concept that uh LDL is aogenic. Full stop. That it is high levels of LDL will be problematic at a population level. >> Mhm. >> If there is a push back on an individual level such as, hey, but some people have high LDL and don't get cardiovascular disease. Well, that's not much different than the person who smokes three packs a day and doesn't get lung cancer. But populationwise, every population is going to be at a high risk. And therefore, when we did this study, that was going to be a concern. Now bringing it back to where we got tested. The interesting thing as the interesting aspect to my story of the last year in particular is I would argue we got tested in a way that um I appreciate because of how much it became a test for everyone else as well. If that makes sense. >> Yeah, it does. >> So what happened when this data dropped? What happened when critics rightly pointed out for example uh our not having the numerical value >> even if we weren't looking as closely for it even if it got missed in table three etc. Um, that was a key. That was probably one of my favorite moments, even if it wasn't an awesome moment, because I found myself kind of at odds with a lot of people within our own team, where I was like, "This is a moment to own it. This is this is absolutely a moment to say the critics are right. This is we we should have had this in the paper. We want to have this in the paper. and we made a mistake. And you know what? I'm the spearhead on this. I'm this is this is the buck stops with me. I'm quite literally going to go out and I'm going to absolutely own this because that's what I would expect of somebody else who was in my position. And uh it was it it's it's interesting. I'd never um felt the combination of both, you know, feeling awkward but at the same time feeling so sure how right it was. And to this day, it's like one of my favorite moments, ironically, of the of the research journey, if that makes any sense.

>> It does. And once you once you own your mistake, that's part of your your your record. I mean, like, you know, you you're allowed to make mistakes. You just got to, you know, you just got to move on. But but move on like after doing the right thing.

>> Well, and this is the this is why I say it became a kind of it kind of exposed data on all sides because what's interesting is that I think that there was a narrative. I was talking about this with Greg. I don't know if you listen to my episode with Greg Mushin. >> Yeah. >> Um and I was talking about this with Alex Leap as well. It became a kind of there was a kind of narrative construct that I think kind of became its own entity if you will by many people who were critical of the study. They wanted to lock in on this this deception narrative that actually we knew exactly what we were doing. there was, you know, this mustache twirling component. And in order for that, you know, concept that we were leaving information out intentionally, it required the lack of covering, the very thing I just mentioned, me acknowledging that they were right, that it was a mistake and that we need to correct it almost right away. Right? So, I I couldn't help but appreciate the narrative that to advance this idea that we were not sharing something by design, you had to not share something by design. And and it's it's a thing that I've often wondered how much is truly conscious versus unconscious. That's the thing. It may sound almost like I'm wanting to let my critics off the hook on this. It's not so much that. It's it's that I'm recognizing how much when a narrative catches hold and you want to believe in that narrative, you can find yourself slowing down on further information that's coming in that might counter it >> as it's happening. Because at that point, months of information is coming in. It's not just what I did in the aftermath but was ultimately the information that was coming out about clearly more that's coming on the way by the way >> um but also the uh other independent analyses like heart flow and Qangio all become relevant at that same time everything starts going quiet on the critic front which again becomes kind of its own data right now the the key test I'll just say um we're filming this February 13th. This will become relevant later. The key test will be what happens next. And in the coming weeks, I believe something new will arise and the big question will be whether or not many of these same critics find that they do want to cover everything or do they want to continue covering just half of the story and leave the other half out. And I don't know the answer to that question yet, but it'll it'll say a lot depending on what happens.

>> It's it's a a fascinating story. I'm looking forward to seeing how it unfolds myself. >> Yeah, it's uh it's kind of nice to be chatting about it now and then here on the podcast just because like I said, there's some folks like you who I know could watch the whole thing in real time as it unfolded.

>> It's amazing. I think it was back in 2021 at in San Diego that I found myself and I knew a lot less than that than I do now and I'm still um uh you know I struggle sometimes to uh to stay in the conversations at the high scientific level but I was sitting between you and Dr. Ben and you were talking about um about a lot of this stuff, but at the beginning versions of of this and and I I find it interesting to to hear this at at the time. I was like, "Oh my gosh, I'm I'm sitting between two legends talking about uh about stuff at the PhD level." And um u but I've been really grateful to to be sort of have a a front row seat to this over the last uh uh five or six years. It's been fascinating. Let me let me ask you uh a question. And there's no wrong answer. >> Oh, good. >> But I'm I'm just genuinely I don't know. I guess I'm feeling a little spicy to just ask this um because I don't want you to feel like I'm putting you on the spot, but I have been asking more people this privately as we get closer to this prospect of doing the five-year scans. So, it's no secret that I've secured the funding. However, there's been a bit more negotiating behind the scenes to get the research team and everything in place for us to possibly do a third set of scans with the existing participants of the keto study. Many of them have already said in advance they're good to go once we've got everything in place. It just it's taking a little bit more to get things in place due to the stuff from last year. Assuming we do, that'll be some incredible data. >> Mhm. because now you'll be talking about uh baseline data was 4.5 years average. The five year scans means we'll have an average of 9.5 years roughly. I say roughly because we're probably not going to re-recruit every single person. Let's say it's even 2/3. >> I would consider that a massive victory. Let's say that we literally have like about a decade. Many of those folks will have changed diets. So they may have different lipids. Some will have possibly going on cholesterol lowering medication. But sizable portion of them probably will be maintaining existing lifestyle. Can't say I know for sure. Of those of those people that may have had the existing lifestyle and I don't say this knowing myself do you predict that there will then emerge an association between LDL cholesterol levels and plaque progression. In other words, will there now finally be seen some association between the likely persistent levels of their LDL/ABOB and plaque? Do you think that association will emerge?

Man, I don't know. I don't know. I'm going to cop out. I I I I find myself sitting on the edge of my seat waiting to see. But um I don't I don't even feel like my prediction could uh would be worth anything. >> Okay, fair enough. >> I I um I I don't know. Um if I did if I did guess, I mean, it'll almost be a toss of the coin.

>> Fair enough. No, that's great. It's it's a it's a topic obviously that I'm not only interested in, but um I'm now I'm now more interested than ever as to what moves the needle for everyone. Obviously, there's a number of people in the low carb community for which if there wasn't an association, they would they would say, "Yeah, knew it. I I don't even know why you bothered to even do the third set of scans." a number of those same people if there was like this like loose association, you know, um an R2 of like point what point uh I may I may want to go with R. So let's say that the R is above uh 2 or something like that. um like loose association they would say well could be potentially noise but going to the other side of the fence those people are very proddial lowering wouldn't be surprised if a number of them are saying um still not long enough you need you need more than the 9.5 years even with some of these folks who have super high levels of LDL because of how metabolically healthy they are it's possible yeah I mean I there's so much of this stuff that I that I struggle struggle to figure out. Um but I'm I don't know. I'm I'm interested to see what happens.

>> Yeah, we'll see. Um next question. What would you say you has most changed your mind in regards to your early learnings with low carb diet? What would you say you had a strong opinion of in one direction that may have shifted into a different direction?

Um, let's see. Um, well, in the specifically in the world of low carb or >> or just nutrition in general, >> let's see. Well, I mean, I remember in the early days I I didn't understand, for me at least, the importance of protein. Um, so I was getting way less protein than I needed. Um, given the given the food choices that I make, I mean, I I do I I understand that there probably are people that are doing just fine with a lot less protein than I get, but um on a low carb diet, I need uh I've found that I do best with about a gram of protein per pound of desired body weight. And that doesn't really seem to be very controversial anymore. Um, it seems like I I hear that all over the place, but when I was first getting into low carb in 2018, um, I found it more difficult to get to that point. I was probably, uh, initially consuming like down in the low hundreds and I couldn't figure out, you know, what I needed to change and I was doing a lot of reading and stuff like that. So, protein was was one thing. Now, um you know, when I talk to patients at Ovadia Heart Health and I ask them how much protein that they're getting, um some don't know. And when they when they say they don't know how much protein they're getting, um that's a signal to me that they probably aren't getting enough. Um, and usually that's the case like um or some say I'm getting plenty and then I ask them to track for 2 days and you know they're getting like 90 or something like that and you know I explain to them that it might be a lever that they can pull um to get better satiety and maybe get off some of the carbs that they're consuming.

Um, let's see. That's actually for what it's worth I think that's a good a a really good one because when I was coming into low carb space it there there was at the time a thought that protein that yes you need to not just be um low carb but to be high fat and moderate protein. And by moderate, there was I even remember a famous statement from a a prior podcaster where they were saying, "Yeah, having a lot of protein is like having a chocolate cake or something like that because it could be insulinic." And uh that's not that's not entirely false. >> Protein is more can have more of an insulin uh effect, which we don't need to go into here, relative to fat. >> Mhm. But there is such a thing as protein insufficiency. There is there is a too low of protein. And I've certainly found that that was a major change for me as well when I was first coming into the space that had to be careful about having too much protein because too much protein would take you out of ketosis and would be problematic. And uh the meal today I'm not only a fan of protein, same thing. I'm trying to get to about a gram of um I go by lean body weight, but desired body weight I could see it's definitely I'm I'm exceeding I want to say 130 grams a day at least.

Um, let's see. The the the other the other thing that I I've I've talked about society more than once on this podcast. I talk about it a lot. Um I think there's a misunderstanding about uh certain aspects of it and I've had a lot of conversations with people like um you know Dr. E um the diet doctor founder and and Ted Neon. And I think that it's interesting to have a satiety per calorie scenario, but I think that one thing that's very important for most people is figuring out what foods produce that super high level of satiety predictably. Um because I think that's something that if you can get to I at least for me I I can still remember the first time I I this was probably um maybe a month or two into my low carb diet back in the early part of 2018. Um, I went out and got a uh uh double cheeseburger um with no bun and I ate it and it was about in the time when I would we would normally be deciding whether to get dessert or not. Um and I, you know, said I wasn't going to have dessert, but we were still drinking coffee or whatever. And all of a sudden, I felt this level of satiety that I I started thinking it was sort of like bordered on euphoric. Like I just felt this sense of complacency around food that I couldn't ever remember feeling before. And I'm being serious. Like I don't think I ever left a restaurant with that feeling. I almost always left a restaurant with a feeling of being um disgustingly full, uncomfortably full. Um uh oftentimes maybe thinking about how long it was going to get take to get to a bathroom on the way home from the restaurant. And I had this completely different feeling. And once I learned how to duplicate that reliably, um it was a complete game changer to me. And I I can't underestimate that for other people. So I don't know if that was something it was something that I it was a turning point for me not a change in perspective but

>> yeah I yes I guess um we'll just make a larger mention so uh Dr. Ye, Ted Neon, they're they're big fans of kind of the protein leveraging aspect. >> Mhm. >> And the satiety per calorie is sort of like this larger model that's kind of built on top of it. But to your point, yeah, it's it's almost difficult to describe satiety to someone who's never really experienced it. But I usually use I think I you kind of came around to close to the way I would describe it which is you don't want to eat more food but not because you're completely stuffed. That's like my version of it because most of us in the old school mixed diet days where we're just eating at Taco Bell or something like that. Uh I I had to be like stuffed to not want to eat. Like I I could always eat more. Absolutely. What determined how much I ate? Usually I had just just had to do with what the meal was. So I ordered such and such meal. Okay. And then I eat ate the whole meal. So let's take Taco Bell. So there would be a meal that would be like um I'd get steak quesadillas with the um the cinnamon thingies. I'd eat that. And if I was hungry enough to eat more from my perception that I'm hungry enough to eat more, I would just go and order like another quesadilla. Now, here's the thing that I feel like I want to break out more with people in general. We very rarely put food on our plate and then eat part of the food and then say, "I can't eat the rest." We very, very rarely do that. And when you're going to a restaurant where you order a meal, unless you order something that really is massive to where you're like, "Oh my god, there's like no," and you're usually thinking that even as you're seeing it, you're going, "This is like so I don't I don't even know if I can eat all this." But if you if I took a plate of food to one of my family members and um reduced it to 80% of what its size was from the first time I gave it to them and that was just all the food that there was that I had made. I feel confident that they would likely eat that and they they might notice that I made less of it. But if it was of the portion sizes that I know they typically choose, then that's just what it was. And then they eat what's on their plate. And then even if they think about the food, because there wasn't any more, you know, available, then it's like an answered question. It's done. And so where I'm coming with this is that I think that some amount of our eating habits are based on what we already got and placed in front of us to then eat. And I think that becomes relevant towards things like satiety signaling. It shouldn't. We'd like to think, oh, I'm only going to eat as much as what gets me satiated and then I'm going to stop. I'm not going to eat another bite. But part of the challenge with that is that when it's cheap, inexpensive food, never mind even ultrarocessed, when it's cheap, inexpensive, and we don't have quite a strong satiety signaling mechanism, I think it's very easy to overeat. I think it's really, really easy, particularly when you're at something like a buffet where you can just like throw a bunch of food on on the plate.

Interesting. I I have I'm trying to think like there's there's some aspects of the satiety. Uh first of all, I I've never not finished what was on my plate. Um um I always that's to this day. Um except when I have the right foods on the plate, it doesn't matter. Um, if if you put a 20 oz ribeye on the plate, um, and some broccoli with it, um, preferably with a little butter and garlic, um, I'll eat the entire thing, scrape it clean, and, um, and if you offered me more, I'd probably have maybe maybe more, but when I leave, I'm going to be good for maybe till tomorrow morning or tomorrow afternoon, maybe. Um, so that's where a society comes into play. And one thing about the I do think that for a given person um it does matter whether you are having fat or carbohydrates. I'm not saying that carbohydrates are inherently bad or that fats are inherently good. Um but I'm saying that it matters. And I think in the model that I've seen with satiety per calorie there's a assumption that fats and carbohydrates are um >> equival equivalent >> right >> and they may be it's possible that they're equivalent to the masses if you average it all out. I don't know but to me they're not equivalent. Um >> I I don't I don't think that they're equivalent. I I don't and again this I think that there's just a larger environmental context and by environmental I mean literally within the body right so you you have a very small uh capacity to store carbs you have a very large capacity to store fat and to where you're going over on the carbs it's going to activate into the creation of more fat. >> Yep. >> Right. And again, I think there is a there there are differences to when you're younger and you're more metabolically healthy and before you've developed pathogenic insulin resistance, as you'd see with insulin resistance syndrome, that I think becomes an extra relevant context to how bad carbs could be for you, relatively speaking, next to fat. And so I'm a big fan of bringing in that component of the nuance. But in the case of like my family and friends, I'll say I'm aware of all this and I'm aware that there are other ways you could do this. But again, you want to get back to the how do you get to low insulin. However you can do that, that's great. But I'm just telling you so far anecdotally getting back to this isn't advice per se, but the highest success record that I've seen at least within my circles has been low carb. Low carb for those who have insulin resistance syndrome. It's how you're getting to it generally. What is your uh meal that provides the greatest level of satiety for you predictably? So, I like pulled pork. Just literally a plate of pulled pork. That's like really satiating for me as a one thing that's very low carb. I'm going to surprise you though, and I've talked about this before. Um, keto chow shakes, which are as ultra processed as it gets, right? Keto chow shakes with a low amount of heavy whipping cream relative to what they usually do. It's usually has like a little bit more water. Um, so they're very loose. They're almost like a chocolate milk or something. I did that this morning actually. I had um I had a keto chow shake. Another thing I find very satiating is um boren cheese, garlic cheese. I actually have it and I'll have one half of it at a time and I'll I'll consume it slowly. But getting back to habits and structure that I tend to find for me are very relevant. I'll bring in one more thing that'll surprise you in a moment. In all three of the things I just mentioned, I don't scarf them down. That may seem surprising with say the keto chow shake because like I said, it's almost like a chocolate milk, right? But I'm just kind of like sipping on it and I find that I don't consume it quickly. Now, there there could be a chicken and egg factor here, right? Like, it could be I'm not sipping it very quickly because it's a um even if I'm using less heavy whipping cream, it still is a a a high calorie density drink. >> Mhm. >> Right. But I could if I wanted to, I could drink it quickly if I wanted.

to. The pulled pork I couldn't eat very quickly if I wanted to. That's that's a little more challenging. Same thing with the steak. Eating a thousand calories of steak is very hard to do.

Um, the the Borson cheese is very caloric dense, but I can't eat it too quickly. I'm taking little nibbles of it at a time. But I got one more for you, which is peanut butter mixed with unsweetened cocoa powder. >> H mixed with stevia. So, it's it's kind of like a um a dark chocolate and peanut butter mix, and it's the thing I consume the slowest. >> Wow. >> I collally call it uh my goop, if you will. >> What kind of peanut butter do you use? >> Um I want to say I want to say it's GIF. I want to say it's natural GIF or whatever because >> which by the way will annoy my um my anti-seed oil folks because it's got seed oil in it. Uh but what's happening is is I do the mixing up. It's got kind of a grit gritty texture to it and I'm I'm just I'm nibbling it. I'm nibbling it slowly.

Got to try that and see if I can nibble that that kind of food because I have a feeling that's not going to go well. >> Yeah. But see, you take a fat bomb. Uh my sister makes these fat bombs that are very similar. They're made of peanut butter. I think they have stevia in it, but they're sort of like a little, you know, Reese's cup or something like that. I eat them quickly and there's just something about the way I have the goo like mixed up. Maybe the gritty texture. I don't know. But I'm like I'm licking it off of a spoon while I'm usually working on a spreadsheet or something. I find I can't just eat it all all at once very quickly. >> I love peanut butter. I don't I I I do very poorly with peanut butter.

>> There's actually um somebody else who I tend to have a guest on here and I'm not sure if she wants me to out her, but um same thing. Huge problem with peanut butter. like it became almost like crack where she'd be thinking about it all the time and would be just constantly obsessing about it and you know when would she be getting home so that she could have it again kind of thing. And uh peanut butter uh for the uninitiated is kind of you know there's green zone, red zone, yellow zone, yellow zone with regard to carbs, right? It's lowish carb but it's not >> Yeah. Yeah, it's not really it's like a it's almost like the Bermuda Triangle of uh of foods because it's it's got like it's got a lot of fat. It's got some some carbs and it's got some protein, but a lot of people think it's a high protein food. It's it's more like a a very good way to just completely uh >> yeah, >> pack down the calories. >> It's it's very calorically dense. Yeah, >> very clear >> and and just and very hard to moderate for a lot of people. You be superhuman if you can.

>> And I I don't have a good answer for this other than and this is another obsession of mine. I have a a sweet tooth. I don't love the term sweet tooth, but there does seem to be an almost separate satiety category for me with regard to sweets. I've tried multiple times to completely cut sweets out of my diet, at least for even a period of time, at least for like say a month. Um, in fact, I think last year for January, I was like, "This time, this time I'm absolutely going to just go entirely without anything sweets." And bear in mind, this this entire time I my version of sweets has been artificial sweeteners like stevia sweeten things, alulose, whatever, right? Um, but I genuinely find that during periods of time where I'm just a skewing anything sweet period, like carnivore diet experiments or something like that, a I am hungrier more. I'm wanting to have something that's at least in one meal of the day, you know, finishing out with something sweet. And if I don't, there's like a there's like a hunger s that's going on where I feel like I'm missing something and I actually it actually affects my mood, right? Until I have something.

Getting back to the satiety of the goop component, if I needed to like lose a lot of weight quickly, I guarantee that the method I would choose is probably having only that. for like several days in a row because it for whatever reason handles the sweetness satiety and I find if that's covered the consumption satiety overall seems to be lower. Like I'd still have to willpower this but I could white knuckle this better than I could the sweetness component. I don't have a good answer for why it works this way. Well, it's fascinating and it's it's kind of important to uh I think that you are describing some things that are definitely not the case for me. Um, and having spoken to now hundreds of different patients with very diverse experiences, I am I'm learning more and more that there is no oneizefits-all um for everything and that yet there are general principles that will apply to many but not all. So, you've got to be like looking for the cases where that general principle might apply to this person and yet be open to the idea that they can have experiences that are totally different.

I mean, for me, I love candy and sweets and I really can't fit them into my life in any way ever. Like when it comes to, you know, I will have during the holidays, I will have like um a home homebaked cookies that my mom makes that I can remember the recipe from um my next door neighbor when I was a little kid. Um she gave the recipe to my mom when she moved away and my mom still makes the cookies, you know, gosh, like 55 years later. Um, I will have a cookie and I can figure out little strategies to keep myself on, you know, from going completely off the rails, but I don't eat the candy that I used to like I don't ever eat. it doesn't happen like like whether it's Starburst Skittles or without and and it's because >> I mean I know technically part of the problem is I I can have a pack of Starbursts and I could force myself to stop but I realize when I'm done that I haven't derived any benefit. Um the desire for more is still there but even more profound than when I started. So I'm not feeling any better about things. I mean, there was a brief moment when I was chewing the the candy and it felt like I was getting that dopamine rush, but the net, it's much like an alcoholic, much like a drug addict where you you just want more and until, you know, so >> and that's that's why it's distinctive. It's a distinction I'm trying to draw attention to >> is I'll get that level of satisfaction and then it closes the loop.

>> Okay. Well, as I thought the first time I've heard that, I know that, you know, my wife is much more likely to be able to come home from work and, you know, she'll she my wife will uh take out um four at various times, oftentimes right before bed, she will um before she goes up to brush her teeth, she um will take out four pretzels. the little the little pretzels that are like like that, you know, like um and she will lay them out on a napkin and then she will go into the cupboard and she will get the dark chocolate. Um, I think for her it's 78%. And she will take one square and she will break it into four pieces and she will place one quarter of each square on the pretzel and she will it'll look like she's having a four course feast and she's basically having this minuscule thing and she will go upstairs to brush her teeth and get ready for bed happy as can be. And I'd be like just unable to >> Yeah. You just be like, "Yeah." So, I have foods like that. I have, first of all, French fries. I'm never going to eat another French fry. I cannot.

>> I was with you in 2021 when they mistakenly brought you an order of French fries that you had asked not to have, and I think you handled yourself pretty well. >> Yeah. >> But I do remember that. I I know myself well enough to know that there are carbs that I could have that are part of that, you know, acceptable. I know I can have them and get back away from them, right? So, actually, pizza is a great example. Um, I could have a cauliflower crust pizza. If I do, it'll be in that 5 10% range because that's going to exceed, you know, 100 grams of carbs. Not by a lot, but probably by enough. I know I can have it. I'll absolutely love it. I love pizza in general, but a cauliflower crust I can feel okay with as opposed to like an actual actual pizza.

>> When um we're going to travel to Italy sometime, I don't know, the end of this year or next year, something like that. And I know they have super super thin crust pizza. Won't be cauliflower crust, but it'll be thin crust. Will it take me over my carb budget? Probably, right? However, in the case of pizza, even if I have my triests, I could pull back. I am really confident that if I allowed for cheating with fries, it's over. It's like I'm going to now break that seal and then I'll be in that that uh repeat, right? So, they So, we've we've talked about sweets. We're talking about savory on the savory front. Nope. Getting back to the sweet front, it's not all sweets. If I have um there's there's something I really love that Sprout sells, um unsweetened dark chocolate covered almonds.

>> And if I have those in my house, it will eat them all. There's I tried several times where the serving size is nine of them and I would have nine of them. I'd set them aside. that I'd eat them and I'd be like, "Okay, I'm not going to have anything else for the, you know, until like maybe after the next meal or something like that doesn't work. It's in my head." And as I'm going and working and so forth, I'm aware that it's there. Food noise. Maximum food noise. And I'll eventually finish it all and then I go, "Can't have them in my house again." And went through three, four of those cycles. And then eventually I was like, "Okay, really, for real, I can't have them in my house again." and I quit them for good.

>> I have foods where it it's not so much if it if they're in my house, it's if they belong to me. Um I don't raid uh I usually don't raid other people's food uh in my own house, my daughter, my wife, if if it's something that's really not mine. Um I mean, you know, we don't have communal food. I mean, we have we have food that everyone can eat, but like if my wife buys something that's really meant for her, I leave it be. But if I buy it, it doesn't last long. If it's like one of those danger foods, um mixed nuts, uh even silly stuff like raisins. Um uh I could eat a whole box of raisins. Not a little box either, like a a giant box of raisins. But man, you start talking about almonds with some sort of chocolate on them.

>> Oh yeah. It's over. >> It's like >> I I I can eat embarrassingly large quantities of foods like that. And so yeah, I and same same as you. I when I say it's in my house, I'm saying if I got it for myself and it's in the house to to me, a problem food is food you're going to eat when you're not hungry. You're just it's it's entertainment, right? To the extent to where you'll act on it. It's one thing to have something in your house that's a treat and you'll treat it as a treat. You'll you'll actually go, "Okay, so I have Lily's chocolates, for example. Love Lily's chocolates. They're a treat. They fill that sweetness void I'm talking about that closes the loop. It works. I can have half a bar at the end of a a modest meal and I'm good. I'm done and it's over and I feel good about it because stevia is sweetened and I've tested my glucose against it many times over. It's fine.

But another thing I know I could never h I like would truly never have again even for a special occasion even if they were like Dave let this be you know one of those rare times we were totally off low carb would be like a hot fudge Sunday hot fudge Sunday. No I think it's going to be on par with fries. I think once I break that seal it's over. I'm going to have it in my mind as something I want to be able to have again. >> Yeah. I don't know if you're familiar with like Friendly's restaurants. Uh I don't even know if they still exist, but when I was younger, they had like the Jim Dandy, which had uh four scoops of ice cream and three different toppings and, you know, the bananas and whatever else. And I definitely will never go back down that path. Yeah, it's kind of it's been very fascinating to watch in real time as the awareness of things like satiety I think has gotten to be more at least in our space in the low carb space there's been more of an awareness of it and how you do want to work with that.

Um, I did want to get around to I I think that I've seen you chat about this online a bit. Speaking of satiety, how do you feel about GOP1 uh drugs? >> Oh, it's a great question. I think about that a lot. Um, I think some people assume based on my some of my posts that I'm against them. Um, I'm not really against um I'm not I'm not against drugs in general if they can be of benefit to a person in a given situation. I'm against um the idea of uh like mass prescribing a drug to people that really in my opinion should be combined with healthy lifestyle choices and not um imploring them to consider making those healthy lifestyle choices. I think that what happens in a lot of cases when you get a the opportunity to save yourself with a drug is that you use that as an excuse to not do the healthy lifestyle choices and in some cases you could end up not even having a net benefit. We don't know all the potential harms that could be done, side effects, um especially if you prescribe them to everybody that has um a concern about their body weight, for example.

So, I think that we need to be really careful about um using them appropriately. Um, and I'm not I don't have the um knowledge to know exactly what that means in terms of who should get them and who shouldn't get them, but I think it's a huge mistake to just um to just dole them out um for anybody that wants them uh just based on um you know just just handing them out without the without the right education behind that. And um you know I think that go we I I I I wrote a rather long post that got a very uh a lot of engagement um on the idea of when I was diagnosed with cancer my oncologist sat down with me and said Chris in order to save your life you you need to go through chemotherapy and radiation treatments and you need to do three rounds of chemotherapy uh two days each and you need to do radiation treatments uh every weekday. for 6 weeks or 7 weeks. I think it was 35 treatments. And you know, they also made it pretty clear that this was going to be excruciatingly painful, but that it would save my life.

And yet, when my brother, who was type 2 diabetes, was diagnosed, they gave him a handout and they gave him some drugs. and they didn't they didn't give him the same speech with the same level of urgency that I received. And in having tried both um chemotherapy and radiation and also tried lifestyle changes, the chemo and radiation are a lot more um excruciating um to implement um except you just have to show up and they they they hit you with it and makes you feel like crap and you have a really really rough uh six weeks and and beyond. So I my point is that I think somewhere along the line we have to figure out how to create the urgency around the lifestyle changes because they will save every bit as many lives and more if we could get people to do them and they're not as hard at they're not that hard if if people are given the information that they need and approach it with the right attitude. Uh, so that's and I do think that if a doctor told a patient, you have to do this or you're going to die, that some people are going to respond who otherwise wouldn't. If their wife hears the doctor say, "Hey, Chris, if you don't change your diet, you're going to die." I think it's more impactful.

I think uh I think there's absolutely an asymmetry to how drugs are treated versus lifestyle. >> Yeah. >> In medicine. And I do think it's a huge it's a huge problem, Chris, because first of all, as particularly the low carb diet has emerged and has shown such efficacy, particularly with diabetes, there's almost a knee-jerk reaction of, well, there's no long-term studies and a lot of assumptions that it's unsustainable. Just starting with the assumption that it's unsustainable. And to be sure with all diet studies often those folks who are in the study are you know themselves struggling with their own lifestyle such that it's difficult for them to adhere to a long-term diet. So the to that extent all diets in a lot of these studies don't seem to have high retention rates but again that has more to do with the population being studied than it does to have to do with the diet. So using that as a reason to say that the diet doesn't work is in my opinion not as strong of a case to be made.

Right. I love and and by the way I'm also going to have on uh David Unwin who oh awesome who as you know is used to this is a stock speech with his patients. He'll sit them down and he'll just give them the choice. He'll say you know we've we've got a couple of routes to go here. You can be on medication indefinitely. These are the different side effects. These are different things, etc. Or you might consider a lifestyle change. Right? Dr. Owen is is one of, you know, I I'm been very inspired by him and he talks about the patients problems as a puzzle >> that needs to be solved. Right. And that is exactly I I got to say that that hearing him say that a couple times at a symposium maybe three years ago um has not left my mind because every patient is a puzzle who needs to be solved or or basically as a coach my job is to help the patient solve their puzzle and I know that it's solvable and I've got to convince the patient that it's solvable and now we got to get about finding how to do it.

So, I can't wait to hear Dr. Unwin. >> Yeah, I I'm hoping to interview him. We're We're going to be over in uh the UK at some point this summer and we're trying to work out the timing. But, um I'm going to take the studio there because by golly, I want >> Yeah. Yeah. >> I want to interview him along with a few other people in the UK. But the the key here is the option. giving patients the option. This might sound almost trit, right? But in reality, we know this because we've worked with and we watch on Twitter all day long doctors. And I don't want to make it sound as though there's any malicious intent. On the contrary, I believe the vast majority of doctors are truly uh caregivers. They want to heal their patients. But there does seem to be a kind of inherent I want to say bias but bias doesn't feel strong enough but I don't want to say prejudice but I'm just going to say there does absolutely seem to be a degree of uh sentiment that in order to get real results really get things done it takes drugs or surgery or both.

That's that's the real stuff of solutions for a lot of doctors. lifestyle. I mean, yeah, it's, you know, that's that's the attitude. I feel like it's a it's a would be nice. Yes, you need to do this. Um, but I'm not here to, you know, you should talk to a nutritionist about that. You should look up materials online. I'm here to offer you the real solutions that only a doctor can offer you. That's how I feel like the broader sense of it is, right? Well, well, part of the problem is the way the system is set up. And you know the if when I was when I weighed I don't remember what my actual weight was at the time of the consult but I was probably 260 plus when the doctor basically told me that I was obese and that I needed to lose weight and that was the extent of the discussion. There was no um the system didn't have built into it. I mean, I I was part of a good medical plan. Um, you know, if I needed a colonoscopy, I could get that. If I needed uh, you know, uh, skin cancer cut off of my off of my nose, I could get that. Um, you know, when I needed cancer treatment, I could get that. But there was no nothing in place for um teaching someone uh, from within the medical system of how to successfully lose weight. So it sort of becomes a vicious circle. Um it doesn't work because no one is being taught how to do it. And then uh that just kind of >> and and this is this is why I can't help but want to bring it back to health coaching.

>> Yeah. >> Is because what you're you you are providing a service, >> right? >> Yeah. >> The service results in better health for patients, right? That's a And what would it cost for you as a drug? What would that cost? What would it cost for the treatments that would be needed in the absence of you, the absence of the lifestyle change? And those discussions aren't happening with patients, right? You David Unwin puts it in a very positive light and I think that's why he has such a huge success. By the same token, I do wish that I had more. I like good hard data to show people because I think it's underestimated how much people respond to good hard data. But when you can show trajectories of here's what happens for people in your situation given a lack of change in lifestyle even if they're taking on this medication or uh etc. here's the likely expected side effects, what the like, you know, what the percentages are for those people. And then also, what are additional lifestyle considerations that you'll have to take on anyway, such as having exogenous insulin, like you you're probably 3 to 5 years from having exogenous insulin if you choose to not make lifestyle changes, right?

>> Mhm. >> And I've discussed this many times before as well. It's just that I have some challenge cases in my family who I love them. They would they would say if they were in the room right now, listen, you know, we're foodies. We like what we like. Um the quality of life drop for making these lifestyle changes is not something we're willing to do, right? There's just there are going to be those challenge cases. Don't assume everybody is like that. There really are a lot of folks like you and I >> that that would act on new information. Well, you know, Low Carb USA each um each of their symposiums, they dedicate uh one full day to a special um area of concern. And I think it was two years ago, if I'm not mistaken, maybe three, they did um type 1 diabetes, something that I knew very little about up until that conference and have since learned a whole lot about. Um but I got to meet um dozens of people with type 1 diabetes who have basically you know encountered that um push back from mainstream medicine all throughout their lives about the idea of taking control of their blood sugars and keeping them as low and consistent as they want to using uh therapeutic carbohydrate reduction. and and you know they're told by mainstream medicine that that's too risky and too dangerous and yet you know I was I was eating meals with many of these people and I was watching them do it and I was hearing them tell the stories of their of the their last decade or many decades of their life or the life's lives of their children and this is something and you said it a little earlier is it's their choice as to what they are capable of doing.

And the idea in in many cases the the medical system is worried that the patient won't stick to the plan and then that there'll be other repercussions. So, we've just got to intervene with drugs uh to save the patient. But it's presumptuous um and disrespectful to >> It is. And and I'm sorry, type 1 diabetes like that's a different that's actually a very different story than than you know insulin resistance syndrome or type two diabetics have theoretically more choices >> than type 1 diabetics. But the type the type one sort of made the case these are people with a situation that's even harder to control and they were still saying this is my choice and I just extrapolate that to shoot if these people can do it so many of them and of course if there are concerns like if my type two diabetic brother um if the doctor is fearful about things we have to weigh all the costs and the benefits but it's just not reasonable to say um you know, here's a handout and it's just filled with, you know, foods that are just not um you know, way too many carbs in my opinion. I've never uh I it's just it's discouraging.

>> So, so bringing it back to the asymmetry, >> I feel that that's kind of what we've watched in real time with GOP1 for those challenge cases I was just talking about. I am I am okay given what I know to this point in time with them being on GLP-1 drugs because they would say it's really the only option that I'm willing to accept. That said, I I tell them this the you know the long-term data on GLP1 is not as established as I would be comfortable with personally as of yet. just be mindful of what side effects there are that have been reported to this point, you know, and be aware of things like I forget what it's called, but there's a name for it where it kind of goes back to what we were discussing earlier where you might like lose a lot of weight, including a lot of muscle mass. >> Yeah. >> It's not working for you. You decide to get off of it and you gain weight. >> Yeah. >> But you gain more fat mass than muscle mass that you originally had before you'd lost the weight. These are things that aren't necessarily going to happen to you, but you need to be mindful that that's a possibility.

>> Yeah, you definitely lose muscle mass. And I mean, it would be very advantageous if when that patient was getting dispensed the GLP1, if they decided to go that route, if they understood that uh they could do so much better um if they also improved the foods they were eating, >> right? And if they also maybe incorporated some resistance training uh to protect and build the muscle and you know just because we get these people down to the right u uh BMI um you know if they're if they're 60 years old 70 years old and they are wasting away muscle-wise uh they're not going to have uh as healthy an outcome as they could otherwise. >> Yeah. And that's I mean there's just no getting around it. We need for the medical system to get better about educating everybody on the importance of lifestyle and diet. Just I mean I I I often think that we're going to look back at this time as comparable to the days of smoking where yeah smoking is not healthy. Sure. You know, but my doctor smokes more than I do. So, you know, doing better than that person. I I should cut back on smoked, but it's not really that bad. I feel like that's how we feel right now about the food environment. Yeah, I should I shouldn't have my Frappuccino in the morning. But, you know, Linda has like two. I mean, I'm like doing a lot better than she is. But, you've got to ultimately come around to a recognition. You've got to just because other frogs are boiling in the water with you doesn't mean you shouldn't jump out. Absolutely.

Well, uh I think this is probably a good place to wrap. Chris, where can people find you? Um I am on X a lot and that's uh biggest comeback and I also have a website biggest comeback.com which is very simple and uh gives you uh uh my links and uh a place to sign up for my free weekly email. And if anybody wants to work with me at Ovidia Heart Health, um the link to um the practice is on that site as well. >> Well, thank you so much for coming on, Chris. This it's been a real pleasure. >> Uh you can't imagine the honor that it was to be asked and uh it was been a delight to uh spend a couple hours with you, Dave.

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He Was 278 Pounds. Then He Found the Missing Piece – TFP #028 | Chris Cornell

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