Guilherme Reis: From Senior Frontend Engineer to Team Captain & PDK: Becoming a Recognized Leader

Oh, why don't you introduce yourself?

>> Yes, I'm Germe. I'm Germe. I'm from Brazil. I have been in Europe for like eight years now. I'm a I'm a software engineer mostly now in the front end and I've been in all of the places like from VB to now and being more specialist on JavaScript. I in for the last I think one year to two years I've been a team captain and I'm involving now for PDM that's a personal development manager.

>> Wow. And what inspired you to join the leadership landing program?

>> Yeah I think for me it was I was seeking let me formulate that in the best way because I first took one class of yours that was the agile course one I think

>> the team accelerator.

>> Yeah the team accelerator. I don't remember it was one or two days but for me

>> I think it was it was over two days. Yeah, but for me was really transformative and uh even I when you look through agile you look like what it is written in the book and I had this holistic view of that and that's that's the approach that I like to have on stuff and so that course really opens my word to Sara words and and just grabbing bites and stuff of knowledge from you from that was really nice and I wanted more so that's that's why I went to leadership because I like hey I do like to be a leader. I do like to help people. Usually I get in situations that I do like to be in those positions mostly because I see some lack of of a team. So I I put myself in this position but I also want to understand myself and I also want to understand the people that's with me in the team. So that's what I went to the course. I wanted to feel a bit and understand more with the perspective that you that in these two days you showed to me and I knew that was a lot of stuff to learn and it's still a lot of stuff to learn but that day that that was the click for me like hey I I want to be a leader that people like really likes to be around me and that's what I feel from you that if you I was like hey I want to work with you

>> that's a good thing Yeah, exactly. And I was like I had that feeling and like I was like it's not the situation. How can I learn the best from her? And was the the course and it was really really good.

>> Yeah. And actually I remember you specifically in the program. I mean it was a couple years back when I did the team accelerator and I think what really resonated with you cuz I remember in your checkout was not just the way I presented agility breaking the frameworks if you remember it was how I presented how you can communicate differently it was how I gave the course because you uh struggled with not being recognized in your neurode diverency and you struggled in being let's say being fully present or being part of the room or also being able to have those courageous conversations and be able to influence in the way that you really wanted to. And in those two days, you said, "Oh, I like first of all, you didn't lose your energy because I remember you saying something like normally a two-day program, you would lose energy, you would lose focus, but you didn't over two days. You had your focus those two days and you said, "What did you do to keep my focus because I never have my focus kept?" And I think that was something that really resonated with you because when you reached out to me for the leadership program, it was not just I want to lead like her. It was I think you can actually teach me this in a way that other programs can't teach. I that's what really resonated with me.

>> Exactly. And I you know the courageous conversations I still use by the today. I I have a just there the one that you gave to me every time that like hey I'm I use that a lot actually and I had a in this last years I had a lot of situations that I had hey let me gave one step back let me write it down in this format because then I really express myself and sincerely it is totally a change of the door it's like the person could be like really mad and you know it could have its own problem there his one word and when I change with the corations conversation the person just like hey okay let's and it brings to everyone to the same level and then we can talk and solve the problem and that's that's for me was definitely the big thing the communication and the way you communicate stuff is really really nice and I have been uh receiving some compliments few compliments about the the communication style and how I could be so empathy with people and stuff like is, but I also I I already had the empathy, but now I know how to communicate with them in a way. They also would open the door for me and let me in. So, it's pretty nice. I really

>> Oh, that's beautiful. I just got goosebumps opening the door and letting you in. That that's what you were missing. I remember you wanted to make impact but just weren't quite there if I remember. And this will lead beautifully into the next question. Where were you in your personal or professional growth journey before starting the course? I remember that I think it was my first or second year at IO and I wasn't a team captain yet. I had an in on that and I believe it was between that that was I wanted to learn more and become a team captain and be be like a manager or even a tech lead and that was the point but more philosophically I think I didn't know where I wanted to be like a where my career is going right I didn't have that view of where I should go next step I was a senior front end engineer and that was it a bit stuck.

>> Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

>> Yeah. And what did leadership or impact the words of leadership and impact mean to you then? And what do these words mean to you now?

>> That's a hard question, but let me know if I'm answering the way you would like to see. But I see leadership now in a different way because when I I see a leader or engineering manager or a tech lead before I just I see them just a tech lead just a manager and that's it. But now I can put them more in in styles because we discussed a lot about styles of engineering manager and I could like okay so this engineering manager use this style of leading and so I also for me it's easier to approach them right and also when I have an engineer manager for me it's easier to communicate with them because now I know what the style of leadership he he's at so I can that communication ation for me is easier. So I think I I separate like for solid block like this is our leaders and managers and stuff for for smaller grains like oh this is this is a sty this style and this is style and this is style. Yeah, leaders are in fact humans, right?

>> Exactly. Exactly.

>> And uh and it's not just leadership styles as you're mentioning, but personality types and needs, values that they might have, different talents that they bring to the table. And as you said, every leader ends into this uh coming with a different set of talents, dragons, desires, needs, and then of course they will adapt the different leadership styles based on what they bring to the table. And as you said, as soon as you recognize what a person's needs are, the conversation changes. It's not just about going and like a lot of people think courageous conversations or stepping up in a room and saying this is my boundary and this is what I need and blah blah. But that doesn't get us anywhere, right? It creates a defensiveness. People feel they feel irritated. They don't feel like you are there to contribute to a joint cause and it doesn't bring you a step forward. But as soon as you recognize their humanity and you see this is what this person that I'm speaking with needs, this is what our joint activity is moving forward. These are, let's say, their dragons, their fears, what's underlying, and maybe the reason that they're reacting to this behavior. you can go into it with more differentiation, more clarity on what the actual conversation is about and more openness to the different ways to solve it together and as you said you make more progress when moving forward.

>> Yeah, I I think it's really related because then you can see the other side because when you understand the needs, you can you can talk from the same point of perspective. So, and then you can progress together. Even if you don't agree with their perspective, you can see their perspective. So, this is really powerful.

>> Yeah. Yeah. That's that's like the I don't know if you remember day two uh or actually day three we talked about convictions and how you can actually have different convictions in the same team and still make positive progress together as long as all values are honored in in that space. So learning how to be okay with different perspectives and still be able to make progress towards a joint goal that is power.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. So um let's move to the next question. Which parts of this program stood out most to you? A session, a story, a reflection, a tool?

>> I can definitely add the courageous conversation, but the courageous conversation is already impacted me in the force

>> in the team accelerator.

>> Exactly. Yeah,

>> exactly. And then this one, if I would like to bring one most, it is to understand my dragons. I think understanding my dragons was the biggest thing to to talk to someone and understand someone when you're in the heat of the moment you need to understand yourself first and your boundaries and I already had a situations recently situations that I had hey I need to stop here and we talk in five minutes so I can sync my thoughts and then regulate

>> yeah and then we can talk about it and go forward otherwise we'll be discussing And not nothing going to we're not going and in the end we just got offended. Right. Because you could say something that you don't want it. I say something and we don't want it and we're just making

>> you're both your dragons are both burning each other. Right.

>> Exactly. So I think it was really powerful that part that we are talking with the dragons, understanding the dragons and really drawing the dragons that we we saw it. I think, correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember there was one draw, I might have it there, the big book that we were drawing something about our dragons and I still feel it and we're as we're discussing I noticed that all this stuff I don't know by the book like all the words by the book but it still really structure my mind how to think and how to proceed situations and just talking to you I just had like some flashbacks like hey I actually apply this that we are discussing right now on this situation that it didn't work but it's just because it as it is a long course it model how you think so I think I really

>> that's the intention of the course some people have said why don't you just do this like in a week long course like intensely and I just don't agree with it I think part of the magic of the course is that we spread it over 12 sessions over weeks because every uh week or two weeks depending if you take the six month or the three-month program. You have time to reflect and to to utilize your learnings in your daily life. See how these new insights are shifting your life and then you're bringing it into the next session. So actually when people finish the program, what I've noticed is it's not one of these things that you rush through and you get a lot of theory, but it's integrated into your life and how you do things. So when you when you because now it's been a few years back and I've spoken with a lot of people that have taken the program years ago and they say it's still 100% part of the way that they live and the way that they act and it's like oh my gosh actually that's where it started.

>> Yeah. Exactly. And I sincerely was one of the persons that I think hey let's do it true. Now I see the value because actually because you know we I think we had a sometimes we have a longer time like two weeks. you can actually think it through and use and these sessions like you learn it this week you can say hey let's see if I can apply it and of course you're not going to apply directly in that week it will be situations that will come out with the years with time but because you really took time to learn it you really go with

>> you really get deep in a like peeling back slowly over time and it's it feels really real when you finally get there and it can there there can be real emotional moments, you know, like this is too much and then you have enough time to relax again and get to a healthy space so that you can take the next step forward again. And I'm really curious because you mentioned your dragons. Do you want to tell us which dragons you live with?

>> I do have a few dragons, right?

>> Yeah.

>> I just trying to name them in English form. I know for example that I become really irritated and in the in the first boundary right if if I if I'm being too emphatic and trying to understand and I know that people is not going in that direction I get really irritated in some way but I do understand that dragon now and I do understand that I have to like manage him and like as I said get the step back and this even happens at home like from people that it is already inside of me that is easier to to reach me like my wife she will face this dragon more

>> so I do understand that I have to like sit and talk with this dragon

>> when you sit and talk with this dragon what do you normally tell it

>> yeah for for me it's not actually talking it's just sitting and breathing and if I'm not wrong we did an exercise of breathing in one of

>> it's really learning how to sit uncomfortably with a dragon Yeah, exactly. Because for me is one of the things is just sit and breathe. But it's really funny because no one thinks I'm an irritated person. No, that I know would imagine they usually say that I'm a really chew guy.

>> Yeah.

>> The only person that I know that says I'm not that true is my wife and my mom

>> because they they they actually get to see your dragons more often. Right.

>> Exactly. They can see it. And at work or friends and stuff, I can

>> you probably hold the mask up more.

>> I can hold the mask more. Yeah.

>> And I can and I can easily with the dragon, I think. And that's that's that's one of the dragons actually that I've been faced with most.

>> And what power do you get from this dragon when you let's say integrate with the dragon in this way?

>> Yeah, that's that's the moment that I am right now. And that's the moment that I'm trying to do this because as I said when we integrated we can use the power right because when I see a dragon that is like this this force of being irritated and just do it right because there is together just let's just do it this

>> yeah impatience yeah

>> yeah the impatience and that's the thing that I I'm I'm actually fighting right now to just understand and just like regulate how to use that force and just actually do it because as you said I also never diversion and sometimes I just procrastinated a lot right and I also like learning and you use that uh that with me

>> yeah it's it can be quite a strength that you have this just do it mentality and as you said the negative side of it can be impatience with others and I've worked with a lot of people especially with ADHD I I just see this more common that you have this kind of flows where you have extreme productivity of sometimes three or four times as much as let's say neurotypical people but then you have moments of complete let's say lazy or disconnect or energy drain you know and what I usually do when I work with such individuals is to teach them that this is your overall picture this is your productivity and it includes spikes and dips and not to the the dragon is the actually not the impatience. The dragon here is being hard on yourself when you're un low and instead recognizing that that this is part of your overall productivity cycle and it's your way of healing, way of regaining your energy so that when you're up here and you have that can do, you can do. So this is the integration which needs to happen so that you can actually experience and unlock this behavior without feeling like when you get down here and this is what you bring to the table. So this is how you talk about yourself. This is what you bring. And when you learn how to work and flow and you learn how to accept and love this about yourself, um it's no longer defensive, you know, like you're no longer defensive about those moments when you have low energy because you know overall you bring a lot to the table and you also protect your energy because a lot of people which work three or four times as productive as let's say normal individuals, normal individuals get used to that and then they think people will think I expect this all the time of you if you can do it you can do it all the time and no you can't right so then you actually go into the right conversations and be like no this is actually what I bring it involves this but it also involves this without being defensive without having to defend but just as this is a state of fact this is what comes with me and that's fine I'm worthy as is

>> yeah if you if you learn to use it that is really powerful because I noticed when I really use it I I can just finish everything that I need and then I and Then I wasted again, you know, like then I'm tired of

>> Exactly. And and instead of feeling guilty about it, just know this is this is part of how I am.

>> And that is the sitting with the dragon and integrating. It's a kind of self-acceptance. It's a kind of self-worth. And by being able to sit with that dragon, you get the power that you get from these peaks. And believe me, this power that comes in the peaks, it's I mean, if you've ever worked with somebody that has that three to four times of productivity, it's not just productivity that comes. It's like massive imagination. It's massive creativity. It's like a kind of problem solving that you don't get normally from people which deliver more at pace all the time the same. So, it's a massive superpower once you learn how to embrace it.

>> Yeah.

>> Anyway, let's move on to the next question. Was there a specific moment that shifted how you see yourself or your ability to influence others?

>> That's that's a really really nice question because I don't have the specific moment of time but I could see it that of course when I became a team captain more people were talking to me but uh when I also integrated into a new team I see that there is because of the way of act completely change the figure right so I completely change how people perceive me how how I also deliver stuff right how I and switch between roles like being a completely front- end developer should like like managing style of of that and I also received some compliments saying hey I actually see you as a engineer manager like a tech lead

>> nice

>> and that's really really nice because I'm receiving this this information and like okay that's nice that's really really good to hear that I'm doing that impact on on people even being as a front-end developer veloper and being able to contribute in that way that uh

>> yeah and we actually learned that is leadership is not a management hat right

>> yeah I think I think it's really really that and and it is a thing that I do like it I do like to be in the middle position like I'm not like just managing but I also in the side the side of people battles you know like as a a software engineer is really nice to be there and and see what we're doing and see where we going and developing together and feeling the pain as well. Yeah.

>> Because I think for most I think tech leads and engineering managers there is a moment in career that they just managing

>> right and that's I think this is really hurtful and being in a position that also is just in the middle like uh I can be there but I also can contribute and talk in the same level is really powerful for me. So in the last year I have noticing that uh it's been someful and uh moments that I come. I cannot say it was from this date but I see there

>> it was a gradual awakening.

>> Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Beautiful. And how did the program challenge or stretch you emotionally, mentally, practically?

>> Yeah. I think as you know I just had the baby when we were getting

>> yes I remember

>> I did a course with the baby sometimes right

>> like on you I remember

>> he was in this ling and so mentally it was it was really impactful because I also was just dealing with other dragons that today they're more quieter I understand them is easier to reach them but there was a lot happening in that moment and of course having two kids little kids everything happens and when you want to involve also in the career is mentally and even physically really tiresome I think all the new parents know how how it is tough and all the parents know it right we just get it and then we think we want more kids

>> I've had for some reason quite a few new parents or people having more kids that took my program it must be that age of transformation between engineer and management it kind of falls at the same time that we become parents And one of the things that I've heard people say is they find this new learning of leadership actually not just changing their lives but changing the life of their children because they parent differently. You know they it's it's it's essential somehow at that time in life to start to change the way we act and think and regulate ourselves.

>> Exactly. And I think I think that's the most important thing because it doesn't for me it impact how I communicate even with my kids and that's the toughest stuff

>> because as I said at work you can put the mask on and just go in that you're professionally going that

>> at home you have everything that your mask is everything is just show to everyone. So it's like not doing faces and not doing so it is really truthful and how you are in that moment the kids you learn it and you also teach them how to be like that and how to teach them to communicate in nice way and so I think yeah I think it challenged me a lot in the beginning so I could just understand myself and in that moment I was having my second kid that and I was learning even more and stretching ing me physically, emotionally, and mentally. And so it was really a bridge in a way to to talk with my dragons, I believe, and understand them in some way. And I do believe with the dragons is a thing that every few years a new one shows up, right?

>> I think they mate.

>> They may mate or they've been hiding underneath there. Oh, I see you now.

>> Yeah. Exactly. So you can walk in the valley and say, "Oh, there." It's quite a journey, I think. And quite a journey. And yeah, I do think and and I'm really happy to to talk to you now because after a few years, I see that this stuff is sad of me. But revisiting it, it shows how I put his stuff in a way that goes like that and even push me push me a little bit more so I could adjust the other stuff that I actually reflecting to.

>> And that's the thing. You have the book, right?

>> No. Yeah,

>> you don't have it. So in the book in every chapter I have a maze that I've handdrawn. So you see

>> Oh, nice.

>> Yeah. And so every chapter has and they it has like a starting and end point. So, these are all handdrawn by me. And what's very interesting is the the the end point of one of the last mazes is the start point of the next maze of each chapter. So, you're like progressing through this labyrinth in the book. And what I did specifically is the last maze of the book. If you go to the last one, the starting point of the beginning of the book is the last point of the end of the book because it's meant to represent the cyclic behavior of growth. So if you would go through this book or and the book is based on my leadership program on a regular basis. So maybe not every year but maybe every couple of years and you revisit you know your behaviors that you have today the convictions that you believe in now and uh who's influencing you with these convictions but also what do I need to thrive today is going to be different than what you needed to thrive a few years ago because you have built new skills you are able to now uh support yourself in something so you don't maybe need it from the room anymore. So, you'll have different values. And then when you start moving in closer, you know, to your personality and then you discover those dragons. It's not that you get a lot of new dragons being born every year, but you build a kind of strength just like your values are shifting and you don't need as much from your environment as you did before because you are leveling up as an individual. you have the strength to see now dragons that have been there all along and that's what uh brings out more power that that's that's why I believe when people get older um not all people become more wise but if we are on the trajectory to become more wise it happens with age as we become stronger we have the ability to sit with dragons that we just couldn't sit with before and that and that's a cyclic behavior so yeah this is something I hope the program teaches people it's I don't know if you remember on the very last day of the course it was like okay now you have completed this journey but the journey doesn't stop it's not like we're at the destination you have learned how to walk the journey and this will be a continuous cycle that you do throughout your life every time leveling up your impact to maybe in a smaller zone your family but eventually to your organization and to the greater society as you grow older and become more wise.

>> Yeah. And I I have been thinking and I noticed that I've been visiting this this little book here. That's the one that you gave to me, right?

>> Oh, yeah. Exactly. Yeah.

>> When I have it and and I've been and this is the one that I took the course but and I noticed that I have visiting it several several time here. I have my values and I have a I have a talks we I had it with anchora with the other we ask it. So I do think the book is really really I think that it really helpful as well because in the end I just saw one of the monsters here and one of the in the end we're still revisiting I I'm pretty sure other people that took the course as well revisit that from time to time. I I definitely visit a lot the courageous conversation so I can really frame it in a nice way and see that if you're not missing anything but it does comes like for my values I already got myself just like hey I'm taking that decision and this decision it is between my values right it is the values that I I wrote it there and and even revisiting the values like hey is this value even still making sense is still like who I am and I do think the book would be a really nice guide to like read it and sometimes just

>> it's time to get this book. It's quite an investment.

>> You go from from part to part and then you can revisit it and when you're going to be made an audio book as well. So

>> yes, still still on my to-do list.

>> It would be very nice because I do walk with the dog. I don't know if anyone wants to listen to my my voice for that, but I I definitely I definitely need to try it.

>> I think so. I I would be pretty happy to like when I'm walking with the dogs and like, you know, you just processing all this stuff and you just put it and you just visit this stuff. This is how I do it actually.

>> Yeah. You're you're a more audio learner, too. I'm actually curious since we're talking about an audio book. Would you like it more because this has been a question in my head to have me let's say hire a professional person to read my book and have a let's say more eloquent voice or would you like to hear it from me talking about it and me sharing it?

>> I think it's really powerful when you sharing it you know because I have uh listened to books like from Amazon.

>> Yes.

>> and all the books that the person that did it read it even if it was some chapters it has more passion it has exactly the thing that the person

>> yeah when I'm when I'm reading in those especially parts where it was my life I was living of course I'm going to have more emotion in the way that I sing the words you know like

>> impacts more I think even if even if you say hey I I'm not a professional in recording this but you you I think it would be amazing because you you do it pretty well. Your communication is like like that and I do think it would be pretty pretty good. I think at least for me perspectively I would really enjoy it to listen.

>> Yeah, maybe it's something for me to do in these couple of months actually where I am in in between jobs. So something to think about. I I I remember it was something I thought about before and then I it's just kind of fallen off of my my active thinking. So something to consider

>> for me is definitely one thing I always revisit audios and when I'm walking and stuff and that's that's the thing.

>> Nice. Nice. Um so let's get back to our questions here. Which framework or exercise size do you still use today? For example, the values map, the dragon metaphor you've already talked about any maybe the ecoycle planning worthy goals any framework which you still use today.

>> I have two thing. One thing that I recently wanted to reintroduce it is the what is the name again?

>> You describe it. I can tell you.

>> Yes, it is the one that we do it with the team. So, it is not one of those that you listed. It is the one that you do with the team like the values of the team and how to communicate with the team and all the stuff because I I noticed in some situations

>> we did that during the team accelerator.

>> Yeah, I know. Exactly. Yeah. So, it's the second day. Yeah.

>> And and and I think this one my moment on life is pretty pretty important, but I think it it is the one that that I think I'm because the one that I'm really using always is the coration conversation, but I don't want to be like touching those all the time.

>> Yeah. The same one. Exactly. But it is the one that for me as I said for you many times it really changed my life and really touched me in personal life.

>> It's okay to bring up the courageous conversation because you can't have an effective courageous conversation without having a solid understanding of every single layer of your personality. So it's actually let's say the umbrella of everything in the first half of my book. The second half of my book is all about execution and how to deliver good leadership and engineering leadership etc. But that first half you need the whole first half in order to be able to effectively um have a courageous conversation. And I do remember you saying the first day of the the course that the first I think four weeks or something for it was once that we're going to talk about yourself and I do think that's the one that that really like emotionally we went really deep.

>> Yeah.

>> And and then you start executing those stuff, right?

>> Yeah. Exactly. It's all about first the the first half of the program is really understanding let's say the tools we have. That's us. we're the tool, you know, like what what how how we work, how we function. The second half is being able to execute what you learn in real life to actually team teams forward, make real impact in the world. How how can you actually get stuff done and instead of just making promises, how can you shift yourself? Like that's the second half of the program is more execution. Yeah. So, let's move forward. How has your approach to creating impact with colleagues, friends, your family, your community changed since completing the program?

>> I think for me it was the communication and it was the empathy and putting yourself in the other shoes and I think we talked about that a few times in the course as well. But I had a really sometimes really difficult situations and a really different culturally situation

>> especially being from Brazil living in the Netherlands is quite a shock.

>> Exactly. So culturally difference that I could sit and could understand the other side and could just talk to the other side because I was that I couldn't impact that person because I I learned how to to communicate. I I definitely believe it is the communication. I think the communication was what I was looking for and the communication was the main thing and even that's that's my problem there because the because the all the workshops that I have there's a new level that I wanted to to deal with right I want to see that in all the workshops as well because the way you communicate and the way you teach us to communicate

>> it's quite unique my teaching style afterwards you'll probably feel like hey this is flat

>> yeah exactly it's quite unique and That's that's a I had a really good uh workshops in between but it's still like I remember to talk with friends that that took the same course and I was like hey it's really good what he's presenting but I do believe that if he did this and that he would

>> it would hit deeper

>> it would hit deeper right because then I I I went there right

>> I think it's I combine so many different mythologies and learning styles and psych ology and real engineering experience and leadership experience and I put it all together into the program. So you're learning all the time not just let's say the lesson of the week but you're also learning in how I run the course because each each thing that you do is also learning you know you're also experiencing how you could do it with your team if you're having this particular conversation. So there are so many layers of learning that I put together in a multi-dimensional way. So it's not just, you know, watching a presentation. And that's and and I think that's you that's probably what you miss in a lot of training programs you have after that. This probably feels kind of flat because you're missing that multi-dimensional learning that happens. And I and I see that and this is stuff that I try to have with me is every person learns in a different way. And that's what I was saying about communication and empathy, right? I'm a narrative version. So I will be way more connected with you if you all of a sudden put a video or a fun fact or something like that.

>> Yes. I would be a so when my interest is getting faded away, you just

>> and I try to communicate this also when I'm doing it. So because sometimes things happen passively and people don't understand what's happening. So I will explain in the program that it's on purpose that we have a part which is let's say more reading a part which is more communicating talking a part which is more doing then I'll put in a video you know like because it's not meant that every single individual can grasp the 100% of every type but I am providing something which every person can grasp in the room regardless of their learning type so that everyone one can progress through feeling they have gained something and and I and I really think about that when I create a a training program.

>> But when it comes to um uh being able to walk in other people's shoes, I just want to correct a caveat on that. Uh I talk about it extensively in my book and I also mention it in the program, but it can be misinterpreted sometimes. What I try to teach is that other people have different shoes.

>> Yeah.

>> But I really don't believe anyone can walk in another person's shoes. And that's the understanding. A lot of people think that you have this ability to understand what another person's experience is. And by having that belief in itself, I think it's dangerous because then you start to assume you know what another person's experience is. And that's where most leaders fail.

>> Yeah, you cannot because there is a whole background and lot of dragons that even if you see the person's view, you're not dragons. You're not feeling all the trauma. you see similarities, you go, "Ah, this person also has been adopted or oh, that person also has ADHD or oh, they have the same abandonment dragon as I have." To remain curious always because just because you have some similarities, you are different. And the way you communicate, if you want to communicate effectively, is being hyper aware of that the difference exists. And it helps you remain open and curious asking the right questions and really including the people in your space.

>> Yeah, I have a question for you actually.

>> Yeah, go ahead.

>> It is it is a thing that I'm actually fighting at the moment. I think my light is going.

>> Yeah. uh uh is one thing that I'm I'm fighting at the moment because when you start to be more emphatic and uh trying to understand the other side trying to communicate with the other side with the same view so you can progress right there is a phrase from an old boss that tell me and I always remember like the happy on life is related to progress we're happy when we see progress right when we see a old lady when she has the grandchild, their grandchildren. She's really happy seeing the the grandchildren progressing, right? But but returning to my question is how do you uh understand the the level of empathy that you have? Because being empathic, you have a lot of energy, right? could be that someone get a lot of energy from you and and then you have to understand what is the energy that you can give and this is the stuff that I'm at the moment just like hey this is my boundary of energy because it is hard because at the end of the day as we were talking before we just exhausted because you're trying to understand you're trying to communicate you're trying and try and try but at the end you're also putting yourself less right because you're trying to progress to get this happiness right

>> so the third types of empathy

>> and one page before because I happen to know your ADHD I also specifically talk about different neurologies and why it's important to understand how empathy works based on your different neurologies I have a section here also about ADHD by the way.

>> Yeah.

>> And PTSD, trauma also about yourself as an individual, your personality, etc. What I have found a lot of people talk about empathy as if it's linear, as if there's a kind of empathy and you have a lot of it or you have less of it. And you're either an empathetic person or you're not an empathetic person. And a lot of people attribute being an empathetic person a positive thing and non-mpathetic as a negative thing. And I see it more as a rainbow, as a again multi-dimensional being. It's not linear as in there's one type of empathy. I declare in here 13 different types of empathy. And what's important is to understand yourself. Who who is who are you? And if you are a person which let's say absorbs and feels a lot from others that's a type of empathy and sometimes it can lean towards toxicity. So it's not black and white in having a lot of empathy is healthy and having no empathy is not healthy. What's important is to become aware of which kind of empathy that I am presenting here going to ensure my energy is reserved and I'm also helping genuinely this other person in the way that support looks like for them without sitting in their chair. Some people because of our neurologies we have let's say hypers. So we are hyper sensitive. We are hyper aware. We if we see a cut, someone getting cut, we feel the cut. That's a type of empathy. Some people don't have that. Other people because of our childhoods, we have trauma. We are hyper vigilant when it comes to we see something happening and we can predict what will happen or we think we know what's going to happen. So we're we're walking on eggshells in the world around us. And we start to really understand others and we don't see oursel. We're more outer than we are inner. And that's a kind of empathy. You know, being able to see that that person is having pain before they say they have pain. However, uh very often you're wrong. A lot of the time we think that because we recognize the patterns or what people are doing and we see pain and they're not saying it, so we we can name it. We think we're right because of our past experiences because of but often if we don't remain curious and we don't ask questions and we just start to assume we can actually take over another person's existence in a very negative way. So I do believe great leadership requires empathy. However, the different types of empathy, for example, you have the compassionate empathy, cognitive empathy, emotional empathy, attunement empathy, sympathetic empathy, vicarious empathy, somatic empathy, phological empathy, uh um background empathy. This is a good one. Background empathy is a type of empathy that involves seeing how someone's past experiences, culture, or personal history shape their responses. Anyone can learn that you might not have that kind of empathy that I explained that you see a cut and you feel it or you're hypervigilant and so you know what someone's pain is but you're you remain curious and open and you understand that people have different backgrounds. You you studied maybe about different cultures, a culture map or something and you're aware that it exists and so you you allow for those other cultures to exist. You can actually grow that kind of empathy. You can also grow a kind of empathy where you like rapport empathy where you where you really build a rapport for people. You you ask questions. You you uh understand that there there's differences in them than in yourself and you you maybe get really good at coaching, making sure that you you uh ask about how they feel or or what's going on or what values they need. But it doesn't mean that you feel it. It doesn't mean that. And imagine even a person which let's say leans on psychopathic behavior. They don't have empathy in the way that they can feel

another person. They can learn empathy and they can support society and even maybe be better at it than some people which let's say feel it naturally but uh step on other people's shoes in a way that uh takes away the curio curiosity and allowing that person to exist. So I delve into this chap uh into quite a few pages in my book. It's a really important topic and I think too many people think of it in a linear way. So it's okay that you're confused by it. A lot of people are confused. They think they they try to they assume that other people are feeling empathy in this way and they think I'm not feeling it like that so I don't have it. And that's just not true. You know there's it's it's it's multi-dimensional in the same way that our neurologies are multi-dimensional. You don't have someone that's just autistic and then they're just like this, right? It's on a spectrum. And empathy is also on a spectrum.

>> And one thing that you said just got me. It is that we ask a simple question, right? And how do you feel? Right. And this is this is a simple question that you can easily talk to the other person.

>> Yeah.

>> Before assuming stuff because I remember when we said because of the ADA, I sometimes predict the person's word, right? If it's going to someone directions, I I know the pattern that a person will talk.

>> You're pattern meshing. Yeah.

>> I just predict. So they were talking about that. So this is the thing that ADA helps sometimes and really bad in other situations. But I think that question like how do you feel? How you you see that it is really powerful for all scenario for empathy.

>> And not to destroy what you're talking about because you know my brain is multi-dimensional again. I've had people attend my program before and one of my checkout questions often is, "What insight do you have? What feeling do you have right now?" And I've adapted that question over the years. I don't just say, "How do you feel?" But how do you see it? How do you how does it feel maybe on your skin or maybe it smells a certain way or maybe it it looks a certain way? Maybe it's it's in words. You know, what I learned is not even everyone can identify feeling. Some people don't understand even that question. And so by asking the question and saying this is the only way to answer it that you feel sad, mad, angry, perplexed or whatever, you are already discriminating them. So I have learned over time how to ask questions yet still leaving space for people to exist in those answers in the way that they exist and allow them. And that's why I think I empower so many different types of people because I allow for their humanity to exist in the room when never before did someone say it's okay that you don't have a feeling like sad or mad. What maybe maybe you don't visualize in the way other people visualize. So what would be a way that you are experiencing this? And I I have learned the different ways that people experience the room.

>> I see that. Yeah, now you're coaching me again.

>> Got her.

>> That is really good because I some situations recently that it's exactly what is needed and exactly what we're talking about and it's pretty good. Pretty good.

>> Well, thank you. Thank you. So, let's move to the next question. Um, have you seen any tangible results? So, an improved collaboration, recognition, confidence, maybe a promotion. I actually know that you had one, so you can share about that. maybe better balance in your work and life.

>> For sure. I can definitely put it at least some, but I definitely like a promotion. I think this is a recognition that how it's going and how we are dealing with stuff and how I'm talking with people and stuff like that. So, this is really the connection that I could made even with a multicultural team. It really helps and that communication helped of course a lot during my day today and also to bring these situations that I was just were just talking like that I I culturally and emotionally could not understand the other side but I could communicate in some way that we both understand and we're both on the same side even that we are going like in a we we had a really tough times we still like friends in the work and all stuff even like situations are like hey this situation is not going well but we didn't because the way we I communicate and the way that we go in that in the same process it really really help it and I see that the communication style it really the biggest chunk of it right the communication style the empathy and then trying to understand the other person and this is really helpful and this is day by day I see it. Yeah.

>> Nice. Nice. And so a question I'd really like to ask. Was the program worth the financial investment?

>> Yeah. Of course. Yeah. Yeah.

>> Always important to ask this question, right?

>> Yeah. Yeah. I think I think everyone that take this course is good. Yeah. is really impactful and I and I it is a thing that I don't think it is a course only for people that to progress in their career because some people would say hey I don't want I don't want to be a engineer manager I don't want to go this path I want to don't want to be a lead on this path but I'm pretty sure you're lead somewhere even at home or even you know

>> if you're a parent for example

>> yeah yeah a a community and not only about work. I think for me it gives you a base even to be a better human for the community sincerely because as you understand and communicate and first you understand your selves first right and this this is the start even for people that want go to therapy right psychologist and stuff it helps you to understand right and I think that's that's the big thing that when you go for for understand yourself and then you can do other stuff. Even if you don't want to be a leader, I think it's really really important. It's really really nice.

>> Yeah. And I guess that kind of answers the next question. What would you tell someone who's considering joining the leadership landing?

>> Yeah, as always, I think just do it because it would impact. But I do believe that the person at the first weeks needs to be prepared for the emotional impact because clearly I wasn't.

>> It's heavy. Yeah, I wasn't and not a crier, but I cried sometimes, you know, like, oh, right, I see that. And it's really emotionally impactful. I I do believe and uh and that that what is makes the change, right? When impact that deep, you can you can change, right? I think as a humans we just change it in mostly we change when we really had this drive to change we really wanted or if something impactful happens to you right bad or good yeah

>> but something impactful and I think this this course and and of course the first weeks is really impactful and that's makes a change and that's why makes you remember even if you're not like with the book all the time checking it's just oh yeah that's that's the way So get really deep intrinsic to you.

>> Nice. Nice. And if this program had a ripple effect on the world, what do you think it would spark?

>> I do think I I noticed that I'm more more and more about community and I'm developing more and more my community and people around me and stuff like that. And I do believe that if if this is spread to the world like that, I do believe that we have a better word because people that understand each other, people that communicate with each other, it's way better, right? And if I'm if I'm at a like a traffic jam, someone cut me off or something like that. If you know how to communicate and if you know how to to to express yourself in a way that it's impactful as well for the other person is change and that's what we have been talking right someone could be really mad at you if you know how to communicate with that person you change and all of a sudden you see that you're drinking a beer or a coffee you know like you completely can change I do think if it is a butterfly effect

>> it's in a way you're changing by becoming more yourself.

>> So looking back, what part of yourself did this program help you rediscover or strengthen?

>> I do believe that it put it to myself to something that I knew it but I didn't write it down. Let's say like that. I do I do notice now that I'm really a people person. I really I really feel it to coaching to manage to help and and manage not the way like hey I don't want I want to say people what to do I just and more in the coach side that's what I noticed more about

>> igniting people

>> yeah you know when we're talking about managing style I noticed that I do like to be the middleman that is coaching like hey let's communicate that in a in a nice way and this is what showed to me that I'm really people person. I sincerely in and noticed that I'm more involved in the person level and we're doing a project or we want to reach a goal and I I'm really like hey let's do the go thinking about the go but let's everyone be really proud of it in the end right

>> I'm really curious because this is always a question that comes up in leadership rooms often when people see me they say oh you have those soft skills people skills etc but what does it have to do with engineering. I believe what I do in rooms uh magnifies engineering. It it brings more impact. It scales impact in a technical way. Do you believe that too?

>> Yes. And it's really funny because you're saying that people say to you that you have the soft skills is the same thing that I heard from people. People say, "But you know how to communicate, right?"

>> How does that have to do with engineering?

>> Yeah, exactly. But I do I do think and and now that we're talking I really enjoy to like work in for simple in a BFF that's back end for front end mostly because I could like sit the side of the backend developer and talk to them and sit in a front end developer and talk to them and say hey we're doing this

>> you see the value stream right

>> exactly I really value to be in the both sides being in this full stack side that I could just communicate with both sides ites and just go as a team and involve us as a team and that's that's a thing that I really really enjoy it and of course I came from Brazil we are really shady right but it also impacts me culture but I do think it evolved to me to being really a people person

>> yeah and last question if your inner dragons uh could speak what would they say about you who you've become and the difference you're making today.

>> I should have read the the questions that that's a hard one. As I mentioned,

>> that's why it's the last question. It's like we're getting deep now.

>> Yeah, as I mentioned, I noticed that some dragons are quieter. Some dragons I could easily dialogue with. Other dragons like the irritated dragon been showing up more recently. And I think I think that we the the dragons would say that it is hard to to put in words, but I would say that some dragons, not all of them, I would say some I could dialogue with them and they could dialogue with me in some way that we could use their power and go through it. I I noticed in the in the in the last years that I grow that and I grow it as well the self-reflection and I think that's that's the important part of of the course as well to understand yourself understand where you are and and that's that's also a thing that that we I I fight for as well to understand and go go for it and uh translate it Right. Sometimes they're just talking dragon language and I just speak Portuguese. They say, "Hey, can you speak Portuguese?" So I just seek him in with the question.

>> Can I take a stab at it?

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Yeah. I think that they would say that you now have made an effort to understand Dragon and they would feel quite seen and honored that you allowed them in your room and that because of that you have been able to reflect, get deeper, grow and uh level up and make impact not just in the lives of those which are in your most intimate spaces but to the broader community.

>> That's perfect.

>> Do you think?

>> Yeah, I think so.

>> I think that's I think that's what they would say.

>> I

>> they would say thank you.

>> I definitely think that I can understand better dragons now. I

>> Yeah, I think so. And it's because you're not as afraid of your dragons as you used to be.

>> Yeah. Even knowing they are there, right? I think that's that's

>> the first part, right? It's like, "Oh, there's dragons here."

>> I think the great should just go and reach them.

>> Yeah, exactly. Now, in this last part, I'm going to ask you some questions on a scale of 1 to 10. So, one being low and 10 being high.

>> Okay.

>> For the first question, I understand my core values and how they shape the way I lead and influence others.

>> I think I would say 9 to eight.

>> Nice. I feel more confident and authentic when creating impact or guiding others.

>> Yeah, definitely a nine.

>> Nice. I have practical tools to navigate motivation, communication, and growth conversations.

>> Yes. Uh, a nine.

>> Nice. The program continues to have a positive effect on my work and relationships.

>> Yeah. Uh, 10.

>> Nice. And I would recommend this program to others who want to increase their positive impact.

>> Yeah. Out of 10, of course.

>> Awesome. Are there any questions I didn't ask or any last words you'd like to share? I don't have any any other questions but I do I do I do want to share that I think for from the team accelerator or for the for the workshop that yeah everything that until now the two courses that I I had it with you really impacted me in a really good way. So I do think that anyone that there and really in doubt of I think they should just take it and go because it really transforming and uh and it needs to be like a bit prepared. There is no way to really prepare but at least emotionally prepared that you are open to to take the next step on on your life not only career and on your life and then and I do think for me it became it came in an age that I I was around becoming 30s if I'm not around I was in the in the house of the 30s so I do think it's pretty powerful because it's it's as you said it level up And I'm mature as well. And it's pretty nice. It change stuff. Change yourself.

>> Wow. Thank you so much. And it was so lovely to have you in the program. And I hope in a future