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This is Democracy Watch. Mark, in large part, I think you and I expected this, but we've got bad news out of Florida. Can you explain what just happened at the hands of Ronda Santis?
>> Yeah, Brian, I need everyone to pay attention to this and not look away because this is a five-alarm fire raging in the state of Florida where Ronda Santis is said that he is going to call a special session to rejerrymander the already very gerrymandered congressional map in that state. So, what would this look like in terms of the actual numbers first and foremost so that we have some idea of how many seats might be at play that weren't at play before?
>> All right, Brian, to understand how absolutely disgraceful what is going on in Florida is, you got to do a little bit of history. So, before the 2022 cycle, right, before the latest gerrymandered map, Florida had a 16 Republican, 11 Democratic seat map. Okay? Now, that reflected the fact that Florida is more Republican than it is Democratic, but it's not wildly more Republican than Democratic. It's, you know, it's a 55-45 state. Sometimes it's actually closer. Remember, in 2018, Democrats almost won the governorship and the US Senate race, lost by less than a tenth of a percentage point. So, this is a traditional battleground state that is skewed Republican. So, 16-11 felt like a fair map with a little bit of Republican gerrymander, right? Like, but not crazy. So after the 2020 census, Florida gained a seat and so Ronda Santis went for it and he said, "I'm going to gerrymander this map." Notwithstanding the fact there's a state constitutional prohibition against gerrymandering maps. I'm going to go ahead and gerrymander this as aggressively as we possibly can. And so he passed a 20 Republican, eight Democratic seat map. Now, that was at the time viewed to be an extreme partisan gerrymander. But what we're talking about now, Brian, okay, what you asked your question is potentially Ronda Santis wants to squeeze another three Republican seats, right? You would go to, and I mean, I'm laughing because you'd go to a 23 Republican, five Democratic seat map in Florida, which, you know, let's be honest, it's still got a very, very large Democratic vote share in that state. This would be not just a grotesque gerrymander. This would be, this would rank up in the annals of history as one of the most disgraceful political acts that we have seen. And so here we are, Brian, Ronda Santis and Donald Trump back together in the state of Florida doing what they do best: subverting the will of the people.
>> You know, critics, Republicans are going to look at that and say, "How could you say that? California just did a gerrymander in their state." Um, and that was a state that, you know, had several districts where Republicans would win. And so, how do you have any basis? How do you have a leg to stand on in saying that this is disgraceful happening at the hands of Republicans in Florida?
>> Yeah. I'd say two things. First of all, California is a very Democratic state, right? I'm not having this conversation with you about Oklahoma. [laughter] Okay? Like, I'm not having this conversation with you about South Dakota, right? I'm not having this conversation with you. You know, I don't even know what the most Republican state is.
>> Mississippi, Louisiana.
>> Yeah. Right. Right. But we're not discussing. We're literally trying to compare Florida and California. California has a supermajority in the state legislature of Democrats. Like, it is just Democrats. What you can slice and dice California one way or the other, and you're going to wind up with a huge advantage of Democratic seats. Florida is a fundamentally competitive state. It is a competitive state that in recent years Republicans have been winning, but they're not winning by 30 percentage points. You know, it's a, so that's number one. Number two, and this is critically important, there is a provision in the state constitution of Florida that prohibits considering party in drawing maps, that prohibits taking into account incumbency protection in drawing maps. The other thing is, Brian, this was put in place by the voters of Florida. Like, they passed a ballot initiative in Florida that had to get 60% of the vote and did, in order to prevent Ronda Santis from engaging in partisan gerrymandering. Now, in California, they had a provision, or I guess still have a provision, for a nonpartisan commission, but Gavin Newsom, to his credit, took it back to the voters of California and said, "We'd like to change this. What do you think?" And they voted overwhelmingly to do so. Ronda Santis is not proposing in this April. He's going to go to the voters of Florida and say, "Hey, let's partisan gerrymander." No, no, no, no, no. He wants to just ignore the state's constitution, violate its clear provisions because Republicans, they don't think the law applies to them.
>> So, I want to talk about that provision in the Florida state law, in particular, in the Florida State Constitution. But before I do that, you've been doing excellent coverage of every state that is engaging in this process as we continue on this race toward the bottom at the behest of Donald Trump, where all these Republican states gerrymander. Thank you. We have some Democratic states who are answering and fighting fire with fire. But you have been the leading voice in the media in terms of talking about this stuff in Democracy Docket, which is the news outlet you founded to focus on everything voting and elections. I'm going to put the link to Democracy Docket right here on the screen. If anyone who's watching this has not yet signed up, you need to sign up because it's a great way to follow what's going on. And by the way, it's a great way to support the invaluable work that Mark and his team are doing in the courts, ground zero, where it matters most. So that link is right here on the screen and also in the post description. Mark, I guess the obvious question here that I'm going to ask, and that I'm sure most people who are watching are thinking right now, is if there is a prohibition written into the state constitution in Florida that prevents partisan gerrymandering, how did they get away with this? How did they get away with the 20-8 map before this? Like, what are we doing here that they're able to defy the state constitution in the first place?
>> Yeah, great question. I mean, a hell of a good question. You know, when the amendments were first passed, they're called the Fair District Amendments in Florida. That's how people refer to them, refer to this provision we're talking about. Uh, you know, I was successful in challenging the then map, saying it violated those provisions, and we won. What's happened since then is that the composition of the state Supreme Court has changed dramatically. It is now a court overwhelmingly dominated, if not entirely composed of people appointed by Ronda Santis. And so they frankly, you know, kind of, in my view, didn't do what they were supposed to do in the last go-around in approving these maps. But look, I mean, there is a point at which even a very conservative Supreme Court is going to have to look at what's going on here and say, "This is too far. This is making a mockery of the very parts of the Constitution that the people of Florida insisted was put in place." So I can promise Ronda Santis this: if you go ahead and do this, you're going to get sued, and we're going to fight like hell. I can't promise anyone we're going to win, but I can promise them this: we're going to give Ronda Santis a hard fight and see if we can pull this one off.
>> Mark, what happens in the event that you have a rogue state Supreme Court? I mean, if the plain text of the state constitution says X, and you have these state Supreme Court justices who just opt to defy it, is there any recourse? Is there any way that a litigant can seek some recourse in federal court, for example, or is it just, that's the end of the line and so be it?
>> Yeah, generally it's the end of the line because it is the state court interpreting the state's constitution. Now, you know, without going too much into litigation strategy, there are always things that we look at to see whether there's a federal claim that can also be brought, and we'll be watching carefully as Florida moves forward. And if there is a federal claim, we will bring a federal case as well, or maybe just a federal case. Um, but typically, when it comes to interpreting a state constitution, the state Supreme Court is the end of the road. And look, this system that we have in this country was not set up to handle the kinds of pressures that Donald Trump and Republicans have put on it. I mean, you know, the judicial system in this country assumed that there would be certain norms, a word you and I hate. There'd be certain standards, another word you and I don't like, that would be used when appointing judges and justices. And what Donald Trump did is he broke that. He just said, basically, "I don't care. I'm going to put loyalists in every position." He doesn't care what they are. And he's trying to do that. He's tried to do that with judges, and people like Ronda Santis, who aspire to be Donald Trump, like, you know, they see that. And again, I'm not picking on any particular justice in Florida or any particular judge on the federal bench, but just as a general philosophy matter, I think there is a lot less inhibition in both who gets appointed, but also in the justices and the judges and how they act.
>> Mark, do you think that more needs to be done right now by those Democrats who are in a rare position where they can actually either change their state maps or do something here to counteract? I mean, so far we've seen Gavin Newsom out here in California where I am. We've seen the beginning steps in Virginia, and where you are. Um, so basically, we've got our states down on lock. [laughter] We're taking care of our backyards. Um, but really, we haven't seen that much movement otherwise. I mean, we haven't seen any movement from Illinois. Luckily, we are expecting to see one seat come out of Maryland where the governor there, Governor Wes Moore, has started what's called the GRA, which is the Governor's Redistricting Advisory Commission that he put together. He has told me that that should be in place, that we should have new maps in place by 2026 so we can get a seat there. Of course, there's a seat thanks to a lawsuit in Utah that will fall in the Democrats' favor. But really, we haven't seen any other movement. We haven't seen movement from Colorado. We haven't seen movement in New Jersey, in New York. I mean, there are some constitutional provisions there as well. But can you just talk about kind of the lay of the land in terms of what Democrats need to be doing to fight against the reality of what this Republican party is?
>> Yeah, look, I mean, I would put a plug for my law firm is suing New York to try to change the map there, and in a seat that involves Staten Island. But you're right, like we have not seen the level of activity. And frankly, I think we hit this sort of lull period after Indiana in which a lot of people thought, well, maybe this is over. And look, you and I have been saying this is not over. And I am here to make a prediction. I don't think it's over with Florida. Like, I think the Republicans are going to run through this tape all the way until you get to about September when it really does become too late. I mean, before then, it's maybe too late in some states without other states.
>> Until then, it's too late in Democratic states, but never too late in Republican states.
>> Right? You know, but we also have the Clay case, right? We have the Clay case, you know, that could scramble things in places in the South where I know Republicans are aiming. So my message has been clear from the beginning, which is that every state run by Democrats should redistrict. Every one of them. And they should find a way. And they need to be as creative as they need to be, and there should be no sacred cows. And that's what we need because that's what democracy calls for. Because here's the thing right now, Brian, I don't have to tell you because you have done just absolutely amazing coverage and had incredible stamina. I mean, you are covering what's happening in Minnesota, the tragedy of the woman who was driving her car who was shot in the head by ICE agents and the images of the stuffed animals in the glove compartment. If that doesn't move you, then I don't know what will. And the absolute disgraceful response of this administration to not even show common decency and sympathy towards her family, but rather to lie about her and disperse her and to smear her. So you've been covering that like crazy, so I hope everyone has subscribed to your channel because it is a real public service you are doing for everyone on that. And you've been doing it on redistricting, you know, and you've been doing it day in and day out as we go from state to state to state, and we're going to continue to do it as part of this series. And so everyone, you can't move off of this. Go blue state governors, blue state legislators, they can't move off of it. We cannot just assume that this is behind us. This is, in many respects, the thing that if we don't get right, we will never hold the Trump administration to account for what they're doing. We will never break the power that they have right now and have a Democratic Congress that can stand up and make sure that the kinds of tragedies we are seeing in Minnesota and elsewhere don't spread.
>> And by the way, you're exactly right about there being no sacred cows. And I think we have to disabuse ourselves of this notion that if we just confer some more goodwill to the other side, that finally this time it'll be reciprocated. You know, even before we saw Prop 50 passed in California, you were out there saying that if Republicans take five seats, Democrats need to take 30, which is the exact frame that was validated in California when this ballot proposition passed with more than two-thirds of the vote. Um, and so you were exactly right then, and you continue to be right now. And so again, highly recommend for anybody who's watching, if you are not yet subscribed to Democracy Docket, I'm going to put that link right here on the screen and also in the post description of this video. It is the best way to support Mark and his team, and a great way to support the litigation that's happening right now at the hands of their team, which could not be more important. So that link is right here on the screen and also in the post description. I'm Brian Taylor Cohen.
>> I'm Mark Elias.
>> This is Democracy Watch. [music]