Transcription
Foreign. Welcome to MSL Talk with Tom Caravella, a podcast specifically designed for MSLs and all things field medical.
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Hey guys, welcome to the podcast. My guest today is Angela Valadez. She's Senior Manager of Field Medical Affairs at Regeneron, and she shares how to use storytelling for more impactful engagement. Really awesome conversation. I learned a lot. If you guys are going to love this, don't forget to follow me on LinkedIn. Check me out on TikTok. Now, just go to Tom Caravelle on TikTok. And also, we do MSL Talk Live, which is a live discussion on LinkedIn, and that's the first Tuesday of every month at 1:30 PM Eastern Time. So join us for those. Love to see you. Hey Angela, thanks for joining me. Welcome to the podcast.
Having me. It's good to see you.
See you. Yeah, it's great to see you again. So I have to tell everybody how this whole thing came about. Um, and I, I must admit, in true stalker-like, um, style, I'm at the MSL Society meeting. I, I see. And one of the things, as a lifelong learner, I love to look at content that I think I can learn something and get a lot out of. And I saw one of the topics was about storytelling for medical professionals, medical field medical professionals. And I was like, I definitely have to check that out. And I have to tell you guys, you're in for a treat because I got so much out of Angela's talk, her workshop, that I literally like begged her to come on the podcast. So she is here, and I am excited. So Angela, why don't you do an introduction just to start off?
Yeah, so I'm Angela Valadez. I've been in MSL for about three and a half years now. Love every aspect of the role. Um, a big believer in the MSL Society, which is where I did my, uh, workshop. And I'm really, really intrigued and learning more about storytelling for business and how it really can help us as medical affairs professionals to really have our data be remembered more accurately and for longer. So that's why I created the workshop, and I'm so happy that you invited me on your podcast so we can talk more about it and hopefully others can learn, um, and incorporate it into their work as well.
Yeah, it's important, and I, I think that it's effective. So why don't we start right there? If you could tell everybody why you came up with this, how you use it, and how it's effective. I think that would be just a great place to start.
Yeah, and it's one of those things. I came across storytelling for business just kind of by chance. Um, my company was offering some additional learning. I was like, somewhat intrigued, so I took the, um, the three and a half hour course on it. And that's where, like, the light bulb went off. I'm like, there is so much value to what we do, um, to be able to use this, um, and, you know, really, when you think about it, storytelling has been in existence probably as long as people have been, um, because stories helped connect us together, and we are social creatures. And also, and if you think about it, about 2,000 years ago, Aristotle, one of the greatest teachers, actually wrote advice on how to tell a story. And he said it should have a beginning, a middle, and an end. And that's so true. And now we know a little bit, some more elements of the story that we'll get into, you know, the elements that make a really great story. But, you know, as children, we are told stories. It helps us understand and learn culture and values and ideas and even form connections among family and friends. So stories are very relevant in our lives. And why are stories so important, really? It creates what they call sticky memories. So they're easier to remember than just facts and figures. And our brains are really more wired for a story than for just basic data. And I hate to say that since as MSLs, we deal so much with data. But if you can kind of get an emotional edge by telling a story, the data really does make more sense to the brain. And that's why storytelling really is more, is so effective.
Yeah, I mean, think about how much more enjoyable it is for you to learn from hearing a story than from somebody just reciting facts all the time.
Yeah, it's such a different approach, and it's such a more enjoyable approach. But when it comes to business, what types of stories are you telling? You know, I think where I find that the most relevant to what I do is I look at what, what data am I, am I planning to share, and what patient population, and what's the problem that the, you know, that the physician has, and how can my data help? And I think by just, wait, kind of weaving in a little story at the beginning, um, to kind of, you know, set the stage for the data. Because when you tell a story, it's kind of creating emotion. It's like, here's the problem, here's what can happen if you use the data, um, here's maybe what can happen if you, you know, you know, don't follow the data. Um, and so through all of that, you're creating these emotions, um, that are then forming their sticky memories. So then that data becomes more memorable. I think that's where it's most, you know, in a smaller setting. And I think there's lots of value, um, when there is, when you're doing a presentation because it allows you to connect to a larger audience much more easily.
Got you. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and it's, it's funny. It's like, how to make data fun, right?
Yeah. You know, you try to put a spin on it. And it's, I'm sure it takes planning and creativity. So like, when you're putting together your stories, let's just say, or you're preparing your approach, what are some of the fundamentals that you use to, to like, create this?
Yeah, you know, and so when I'm creating a story, I always have my, my little sticky notes handy. And I kind of, because I like sticky notes because you can rearrange them. But, you know, the fundamental parts of a story, there's like seven of them that you want to keep in mind. And so the first element is, you, there's a hero. The storyteller is not the hero. So we are not the hero as MSLs. Um, the hero is a physician, or the hero is our audience. Who are we speaking to? Residents, fellows, nurse practitioners, nurses. Who are we conveying our information to? So there's the hero, and the hero has a problem. Maybe it's a patient outcome, maybe it's, you know, uh, you know, there's a, a, you know, something with treatment, not enough treatment options. So the hero has a problem. Then there's the guide, and that's where we come in. We are the guide. And as the guide, we have a plan. So we have something that can help the hero with the problem. And so with that, there's also a call to action, because anytime you use a story, you have to tell your audience what you would like them to do with what you're telling them. And it's up to them to take that action. So then the next part of the story is tragedy. And this is like getting more of the emotional aspect because tragedy, here's the hero, here's the plan, here's what can happen if the plan is not followed. And then the final aspect is the success. So then if the plan is followed, here's the outcome that can occur by following the plan, or following the science, following the data. Um, and so then, yay. And once again, this is getting that, that, those emotions going. And, you know, um, when there's emotion, there are hormones and neurotransmitters that are released that really help the brain to hang on to those facts and hang on to it, not only more accurately, but for a longer amount of time.
Yeah, and I guess that therein lies the, that's that's the goal is to tug on those emotions, is to make it compelling so that you can get a reaction and you can have literally an emotional feel and a moment between you and and your audience. But when, and I just remember your workshop, you talked about fundamentals of a story, but you also talked about necessities. Right? So you have those, like we just talked about, those seven fundamentals, but then you have kind of like, we'll call those the main actors. Then you have like the supporting actors. And in that, when you're kind of telling a story, it's best if you can begin with, even though we're not a hero, just begin with a brief personal story. Because when you kind of use a personal story at the very beginning, and hopefully it does relate to what you're talking about, um, it allows you to connect to your audience. And if you're able to get that connection, the audience is more likely to listen to you. They're more likely to, you know, pay attention and consider what you are saying. So when you issue that call to action, they're more likely to think about it and be like, yes, this works, or no, it doesn't work. So it's really important. That personal story also helps you be relatable. And that's what you want. You want to be seen as, you know, along with your audience, not like, oh, that, you know, I'm the presenter, you're the audience. So you're kind of making it relatable where you're all kind of in that same situation together and finding the way, the solution out of the the problem or the issue. And then, you know, I, you want to have that tension because tension is really important, uh, because that really gets, like, you know, like the emotions charged, you know, and you get that, that emotional connection with your audience. And then I think the final thing that's really, really important is it's fluency. Speak in a language that everyone understands. Because there's some really fantastic big words out there, but if your audience isn't familiar with kind of the larger terms and more difficult terms, the brain spends all of its time translating those words into meaning and not focusing on the data, what you're trying to share. So, you know, really know the audience and speak in a language that they are comfortable with. That increases the chances of them understanding and retaining the information.
Yeah. Yeah. So when you're doing this, so you're, so these, so now we know the fundamentals and the necessities of of storytelling. But I think it's easier when you're putting together your stories for a presentation because you have control of it. Yeah. Right, right. But what happens when you're in a KOL meeting and you're presenting data, which I think is a lot harder? How do you come up with the stories for the data, or in conversation, are you able to just on the fly come up with a story? So I want to see how the inner work, aside from a presentation, what are the inner workings of your KOL meeting and how you can use a good story?
Yeah, you know, I think when we're, a presentation, like you said, it's very easy to have much more control. You can pretty much plan your story and pretty much execute your story as you want. Might have to tweak just a little based on the situation and and the room. But when you're in that kind of one-on-one or one-on-two meeting where it's much more smaller, it's sometimes more difficult. And the key thing is, um, and I know, like, I have a great story planned, you know, because I usually try to have them planned. I usually try to have, like, maybe a couple in my back pocket, you know, like have my main story and then maybe a couple in reserve, just, you know, depending on where the conversation goes or, or, um, you know, maybe the topic changes, or, uh, or the, you know, someone else comes into the meeting. So I always try to have, you know, be as prepared as I can. But the one key thing is, never force a story. There's been times when I'm like, I've got a great story, but it just doesn't work. Either there's a time constraint, like, you know, we planned for 30 minutes, now we have 10. Um, and 10, you know, at most, you know, depending on the situation. So, um, so I think that's the key thing is never force it. And like I said, I always try to be as prepared, you know, understand the situation, look at what, you know, previous conversations have been about, try to have a good understanding of what that physician is expecting, how that physician might interpret the data. And I think that's also, if I understand my, my physician and understand kind of the drivers and the motivation, that really helps me create a story that's specific for that physician. Because sometimes you can have one general story that it works, you know, broadly for a vast majority. But sometimes there are other physicians where it has to be a little more tailored to kind of their mindset, their motivations, kind of their, their goals.
Yeah. So, so much of this happens in preparation, right?
Yeah. And I think that's what, for me, and where I met with storytelling, it's really about the preparation. It's kind of knowing the audience, thinking about it, planning, you know, what the topic is likely going to be. And I've had many meetings get derailed for whatever reason, you know, time, something's come up at the last minute, you know, wants to talk about something else that he just recently saw in the news. So, you know, as MSLs, as we know, too, we have to pivot quickly. And, you know, that's what I do. Show the story. But, yeah, I think for me, the key to success with storytelling is being as prepared as possible. So you're doing your pre-call plan, and you're saying, okay, I listened to this podcast, Angela was awesome, so I want to start to incorporate two or three stories that I want to have prepared for this meeting. So what would MSLs need to know? Like, what are some of the best practices or things that they would need to keep in mind as they're doing this?
Yeah, you know, I think probably the key best practice is kind of what we've talked about already. Know your audience. Um, it, you know, and I'm not saying, like, when I meet someone new for the first time, I usually don't have a story. I feel like a story sometimes, this is maybe that second meeting when you have a better understanding of the physician and kind of their practice and what they're looking for. So know the audience, know the language you can use, um, know the motivators and the drivers. Um, like I said, don't force a story. That's something else. You know, it might be prepared, um, but if you have to just drop it, save it for maybe the next interaction. Um, and then key to that is keep it simple. Our brains really like things very simple. So keep the simple, this, the story simple. Because it really, it's about the data. Because my goal in using a story is just to make my data memorable. Because there's really, there's a lot of MSLs out there, there are a lot of products out there, a lot of data. So I just want my, my physicians to have my data where it's memorable. So when they're seeing a patient, they can determine, yes, this is the best treatment, this maybe isn't the best treatment in this specific case. So that's kind of, you know, keeping it simple, keeping it memorable. Add that emotion. Find some way to kind of tag in that emotion so that the, the, the, uh, the information is, is, you know, retained and retained longer. And then I think the key thing, and this is sometimes hard to do, always issue that call to action. Always tell your physicians what you want them to do. And this really leads to, to the success. Um, and then finally, I think, don't doubt that you're not a storyteller. We are all storytellers. Sometimes we just need a little more practice. I think at my workshop, I shared that, you know, my best audience is my two golden retrievers. Um, I practice on them just to verbalize the story. And that's sometimes when I hear, like, oh, it's getting too long, or oh, that's not working. Let's revise it. And then I'm rearranging my sticky notes on my desk and practicing again. And then once I, you know, I feel comfortable with the verbalization, then I practice on friends and family sometimes, just to make sure, um, that I'm comfortable, especially if it's something, you know, new data, I just want to make sure I'm comfortable with it before I roll it out, you know, to, to my KOLs.
That's great. All great tips, great advice. I think the challenge that I find when doing this, and in hearing what you're saying, is you talk about the the emotional piece, right? Tugging on the heartstrings, so to speak. Yeah. So, and I don't mean to put you on the spot, but I genuinely want to know, how do you do that? Are there words or triggers? Um, is it certain phrasing? Is it knowing something about the person personally? Is it non-verbal? Like, what types of things are you adding into your stories that help with that emotional piece?
You know, I think it's knowing my, my physicians, knowing the clinic. Um, you know, and I think ultimately for me, when I, I'm thinking about a story, the way I feel like I can get the most emotion is focusing on that patient outcome. Because ultimately, what we're doing is, is, is trying to provide information so the patient gets the best care possible. So I try to stay focused on that, that patient outcome. And then it's also, it's words, you know, and it's tone. Um, so many times, it is the tone of voice that can help, you know, in fact, an emotion, as well, or an emotional response. So I think it's a combination of of different things that go together. And what works for me might not work for the next person. They might tweak it a little for what, you know, how they want to do it. Um, but there's, it, I'll kind of, yeah, um, kind of comes together. Just, it's, and it's through practice. Like, I, I find that the more I use it, and then after the call, as I'm kind of jotting down my notes and, you know, thinking through the call, I'm like, oh, I could do this better, or oh, maybe I should change this. And so I think it's just a constant revision, um, and, and continuous practicing the skill and, and verbalizing and getting the data and the story together so they, they match together.
And you mentioned before problem solving. I think it, that's a big one. If you can find and solve a problem and address that in a story in some way, I just, I think the people that resonates a lot with people. It almost creates a sense of indebtedness, right?
Yeah. And ultimately, as we, we know our role, and the thing that will get us more time is value. So I think what you just said, you know, creating that sense of indebtedness, that creates a value. They'll be, you know, they'll, they'll remember like, oh, Angela told me this, that was so valuable. I want, you know, when she reaches out again, I want to talk to her again. I think that's, we're also storytelling, it's not about, you know, just, you know, having your data be memorable or you be memorable. It's adding value to what the physician does, helping them solve whatever problem they are having, you know, through the use of data.
And what about getting personal? I don't mean with necessarily with the other person, with the KOL, um, or the HCPs, whoever you're speaking to, but what about using your own personal information, personal stories, personal experience, or just literally getting personal in a business story?
You know, that's a great, great question because, um, I am one of those that I'm like, I'm like, this is business, this is professional, and this is personal. And so it's that part of the storytelling is harder for me because I, I, you know, I guess maybe I'm a private person. I just don't want to share. But I think it's okay to share certain parts. And, you know, especially when it's making you relatable, like you can connect, um, whether it's, you know, you're connecting, you know, a story through, you know, you and your physician to have a, you know, a mutual love of a the same sport, um, you know, you find that common ground and then you build off of it. So it doesn't have to be super personal, but I do think you have to show that you are a person, you have interests, you, um, have passions, you know, about things outside of of your therapeutic area, outside of of your job. And then I think that is really where the connection builds strong, and that's where you can really start to to build the story and layer the story based on your, your physician.
Yeah, I agree. And I, I can't help it. I'm just a very open and honest person, probably to a fault. I mean, I do a lot of storytelling on this up on this podcast, and I do get personal sometimes. I throw all my stuff out there. And I'll run into people at conferences, and they'll, they'll re, they'll say something about me that I'm like, oh my God, did I say that on the podcast? How did they know that? But I think that if, if you open yourself up a little bit, it shows a certain amount of vulnerability. And it, when you're open, it makes other people open. Do you agree with that? And I, I think there's got to be a little bit of caution in that too.
Yeah. You know, I totally agree with with that. And I think that's something I have learned, kind of through using storytelling and adding in that personal aspect, which is difficult for me. But I realized that it makes me human. It doesn't just make me an MSL, you know, Angela, the MSL's, Angela, you know, she's a human as well, you know, she likes this or doesn't like this, or we talked about this. And so I think being vulnerable helps the other person also be vulnerable and open up, you know, more to you as well. And then you really have that great fun. But yeah, you do have to be, be cautious with what you share and how vulnerable you want to be as well. Um, and so I think, you know, that's one of those things that should always kind of be a back of the mind, like, if I share this, what are the ramifications, or should I share something different to try to connect? And it could be innocent. Like, I'm picturing you, you said it before, and I'm picturing you practicing your stories in front of your two golden retrievers, right? Yeah. For your two dogs, like, but that created a picture, that created an image for me. So I think sometimes it could be really innocent enough, and it could be very brief, but it can be impactful, right?
Yeah. And I think that's right. It doesn't have to be complex. It doesn't have to be very detailed or involved. Like I said, I just told you, you know, my two golden retrievers, my best audience, you know, they listen so intently, um, especially because there's usually a treat involved. But, um, you know, uh, but yeah, I, I, it doesn't have to be a lot, just a little bit to just show the human side as well, and really be able to connect.
Or what about areas where of caution where you need to, what would you tell MSLs in their preparation and in their execution of this, this storytelling for KOLs, that they really just need to be careful of?
Yeah, telling or not. I'm super excited and I'm like, don't date a dump. You know, keep the story simple. Pick out those key elements like we, you know, you want to know your data as deep as you can and as detailed as you can, but pick out those key elements that you feel are most relevant. And I think that's the key thing. It has to be relevant to the physician. So pick out the key, you know, two, three, four pieces of data that are going to be most relevant to this physician. Keep your story simple. Keep your data as relevant and simple as possible. You know, and then find a way to work in that, that emotional type. So your data can be remembered. And remember, you're hoping that this is just the beginning of a conversation. So then the next time you can continue to build and continue to share and continue to unders, you know, understand what you shared last time, how did it impact the physician? And then what can I share this time? And continue just to build that relationship, build the knowledge base, and build that retention of what you're sharing for, for the physician.
Awesome. And what about, and just, I'm just thinking as I'm going, so what about as you're, you're preparing your stories and you're telling these stories, do you insert questions? Is it a time when, when you can use your story to lead them into, because you talked about the call to action, which is important because you want to lead them to do something, but do you incorporate questions into your stories?
Yeah, because I think it's important because we always have to have that check back, you know, especially, I think it's easier in live visits, you know, when we're face to face with our physician or in a presentation with a larger group, you can kind of be body language and have a general understanding. But I think it's good to always have that just check in and see where they're at also. Um, but I think questions are good, especially, you know, if you, you know, issue a call to action, you know, you want to make sure that are they okay with that call to action? And they, you know, your physician is like, no, I cannot do that. You know, then, then find something that is a good call to action for the physician. And so I feel like if we're not asking questions, then we're also not doing our job because questions is also where we can gather some insights. Yeah, that's really what we want at the end of the day, that, you know, the insights, what's the physician saying? So, you know, it's not just a one-way conversation with me telling the story and me giving the data, it's also working in, in some understanding. So that's with questions, typically, you know, or, you know, if they get a perplexed look on the face, doing a check-in, like, you know, what do you think about this, or tell me how you're feeling? And I think that, you know, that's really important that you, even though it's storytelling and we're the storytellers, you still have to, it has to be conversational. It's a two-way dialogue.
Yeah, it's engagement, right?
Yes. Those simple questions like, have you experienced this in your practice? And then you let them talk. And now that opens up a whole different dialogue. Um, and in your, in your, uh, in your workshop, I remember, and I think it was your workshop, when it comes to after all is said and done, Paul Ward had made a comment and he said that when you get that buy-in and there's a positive reaction, at that point, ask the question, you know, doctor, who else do you think could benefit from this information? It's a great question. It's a call to action and a question. You're asking for a referral, but you're asking it at the right time because you got that. So you're saying you want to create these stories to elicit an emotion and a response, and you want to get a reaction out of your KOLs. And at that point, when they're excited and they just learned something, that's when you might ask the question, who else might benefit from this information, or do you know of anyone else that might benefit from this information? Um, and I, I wrote that down as a note. I thought that that was really insightful. Do you remember him saying that? Did he say that in your session?
I think, yes, I do. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it, yeah, it was a great way to end it up. It was one of those great, great comments towards the end of the workshop. But it is a great way to figure out who else would be interested, you know, who else, and maybe you don't, but maybe this physician can also facilitate an introduction if you don't. So it's a great, there's so much by asking that question, especially like you said, when the physician is excited, like they, they're in agreement with what you just shared, they're excited to not only, you know, incorporate it into their practice, but also help you figure out who else can benefit from the knowledge. So I just, yeah, it was a great, great question and a great way that, you know, kind of keep in mind as you're coming to the end of, of your, your time with your physician, to kind of, if it's appropriate and you feel right, it's the right time to work that in.
Awesome. Well, this was was amazing. I, I feel like we can keep talking for another hour. Um, any, any kind of final comments, you know, uh, advice or recommendations for folks?
Yeah, yeah. I'll say, give this a try. It does take, it does take time. Uh, you know, you do have to prepare for, you have to, you know, do your pre-call planning, and then from that and what you know, kind of develop the story. And like I said, I try to have at least one story in my back pocket just in case what I want to go to doesn't work. But I, I really feel like if you take the time to develop the skill, or we all have the skills, we further enhance the skill that we already have, there's just so much benefit, um, to this. Not only, you know, I've talked a lot about, you know, having your data be memorable, having you be memorable, but if you, you know, one of the aspects of storytelling is relatability. And you want that relatability, you want to continue to build that relationship with your physician, continue to enhance it, continue to bring value. So I, I really think this is great. There are a lot of resources out there as well. I found some great information on LinkedIn. I think I just went to LinkedIn Learning and typed in storytelling. There are great resources there as well. Um, you know, I also, you know, I'm trying to think where else I found some great information, but I could probably go to YouTube, right? And just watch, you know, storytelling for business and see what videos come up. I think, yeah, that's exactly right. And, and just keep in mind that storytelling is a great communication tool for data when you know something and you want someone else to know that thing, especially when you want them to take an action on this new understanding. And that's really where, you know, the storytelling and the data come together the best, right? Maybe we'll do part two and I'll have you come on and you just tell stories the whole time.
Okay. No pressure there. No pressure. Angela, thank you. You're awesome. I learned a lot. This was great, and I appreciate you coming on. This is awesome.
Oh, thanks so much for for the time. I love talking about stories, so thank you.
Good stuff. All right, thanks guys. Thanks for listening. Take care. Bye-bye.
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