Transcription
When I went back to do the reboot, I wanted very badly for David to like me. And, um, I remember I was [clears throat] doing the makeup and the hair for Denise, and I wasn't pleased with the way I had aged. [laughter]
You know, it had been how many?
I'm right, I'm right there with you.
So I was [clears throat] looking at myself in the mirror and I was like, "You know what? I, I, I got to find another way in," [laughter] "because this ain't working."
Yeah, it wasn't working for me. And, uh, so I said to to David when I got out on set, "Do you mind if I, if I, if I perch on the front of the desk and we have the scene like that because my legs were still good, and I, and I wanted to use my legs?"
You do have great legs. [laughter]
And, and, and, and David said, "That would make me very uncomfortable."
Or it would make his character very uncomfortable.
Uncomfortable. Yeah. Gordon.
Yeah. Gordon.
Which could be a great thing.
I'm David Dubny and this is [music] Fail Better, a show where failure, not success, shapes who we are. Kyle McGlaughlin is an actor I first connected with on the set of Twin Peaks [music] Low those many years ago. He was the star, and he's continued to prove he's a star with all the diverse successful work he's done in his career. Think Desperate Housewives and the Pixar movie Inside Out. Kyle is a really standup guy. I remember being super kind to a new actor like me on set [music] and I get a chance to tell him that today, to thank him, along with a bunch of other things that we get to. [music] Here's that conversation.
We were talking about, um, schools for our kids, and what you said that was, uh, interesting to me is that your son actually motivated the move from from New York to to LA, which is, which is really cool when you think about it, when a kid like takes control like that and wants, and, and then of course you said it was because he had fond memories of not having to go to school in LA. But, but, uh, I read some about your your upbringing. Can you imagine your parents listening to you in that? [laughter]
No. I mean, no, honestly. Um, but then I wasn't a very smart kid. I was like, they were probably right not to listen to us because we had such wacky crazy ideas. Um, there was no, um, [clears throat] you know, there was just a our trajectory, a small town, Eastern Washington.
Well, also, you probably didn't have a sense that there was another way to go about doing it. You, you didn't have the sense of, "Oh, I guess I, I could probably ask my parents if I could move to Los Angeles or Chicago or New York."
I didn't know what an LA was. I was like, Seattle to us was the big city from where I'm from. So when it came time for me to go to college at the University of Washington, and that was also just following a trajectory. Both my parents had gone there.
They were both from small towns in Washington state.
What was his work? He, he was at school. He was actually, he studied to be a lawyer. [snorts] Uh, practiced law in Yakam for a couple years, hated it. He was in the prosecutor's office, and then he followed his passion, which was business, and he became a broker and money manager.
Yeah, and his father was very, was not happy with him. You know, there was, there was a, you know, couple years there where things were pretty tense. Um, but ultimately my dad had success, which I think at the end of the day can bring parents around. That certainly happened with me in acting. The success, and when I say success, I mean I wasn't asking him for money.
No, I understand. [laughter] But, but, but that is, that is one of the, the kind of parameters that we talk about on the podcast here, is because my sense is that, you know, when we, when we're children, that's when the bars are set. You know, what is a successful life? What is an unsuccessful life? What is success and what is failure?
Yeah.
In many ways, our parents give us the game in that way. It's like, you go, you know, go through school and do this.
And [clears throat] I was just wondering, you know, at some point, you know, I read your beautiful article about David, you know, which is really...
Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] I'd love one of those.
This was in honor of our...
Where'd you get that?
Shared, um, it was a gift.
Actually. Yeah.
From David?
Not from David. [laughter]
Perfect. He had a bunch of them. Uh, no, no, it was something, and I thought I would, I had it, and I said, "Oh, probably never going to, you know, I don't wear one. I'm going to wear this." I said, "Well, this is the perfect opportunity."
Yeah. I don't go around wearing the flying saucer shirt, you [laughter] know, it's not like that. So, but was there, what, what was the kind of the bars set for you as a child that your initial sense of, "Oh, this is the game I'm going to go play, and this is the parameters of success and failure?" And were you terrified to be a failure in your father's eyes? Were you?
Um, not really. I think him having that experience, which I mentioned earlier about [gasps] you know, having to go to school under pressure from his father to be a lawyer, that expectation.
My dad was not a great student, but he passed the bar, and then practicing and realizing that this really was not what he wanted to do. He took, he learned that lesson and said, "You know, I'm not going to, I'm not going to force my kids to do something that they're not passionate about."
He made, he tried to get me a little bit into the business world. You know, I took an econ course, which was a disaster for me. I couldn't make sense of its concepts and numbers. I was just like, "It's just not..."
Micro or macro? [laughter]
Macro. I don't even know the difference.
Yeah, I don't either.
It was a 10. It was a introductory class.
Yes. Econ 101. 101. Yeah, the [clears throat] big...
Yeah, there was the psych 101, Econ 101. I did, I did history 101, [laughter] ancient history, which also wasn't helpful, but it was an interesting class. Uh, but he, I, he really, um, he kind of let us drive the ship. So,
Yeah. So, when did, when did you start to think, when did, when did the idea of being an actor come across your radar? At what age?
My mom forced me. [laughter] My mom, my, she's been gone since '86. And I, I, I wish I wish I'd been a little more savvy and been able to talk to her because she was always the one kind of nudging me towards, "Yeah. Why don't you take some, um, voice classes, voice lessons?" Yeah.
Where did that come from her?
I think it, 'cause she really enjoyed it. She liked me on stage.
She had done like local...
She had done like local theater in Seattle.
In, well, no, actually in Yakam. So, really local. [laughter] Like when I say community theater, I mean like...
Small community.
Yeah. Small community theater. So she was the influence, and I think partly because I think she, she loved it. But I think she could tell something about me was sort of going that direction. I like to think now, I've, you know, only come to this realization the past couple years, my dad was like, "You know, whatever you want to do." He was a jock in in college. And so she was the one who really said or started to nudge me through this. And she got involved in some of the, the teen programs, the teenage theater programs, and she would have me come down, and I was like, "Ah, god."
Didn't want it.
Didn't want to do it. I got there, I was like, "Wow, there's a lot of kids my age, a lot of girls from other schools that were there hanging out for a couple of hours."
That old story.
That old story. It's pretty [laughter] Yeah, it's, "I'm a statistic. What can I say?" [laughter] And, uh, and that sort of led to an interest, and, and I also recognized in high school, maybe you had the same experience, was like, "You know, I'm, I'm not bad at this. I'm actually better at this than I think anything else."
I didn't start until I was about 25 or 26. Wow.
So, I didn't have that old timer then.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just, I'm just understanding it.
You're just starting to...
Just, just coming out of my rookie season. Um, for me, it was a rediscovery of sports. Actually, it was a rediscovery of, um, that collaboration, that kind of team effort that, that, that I'd really missed. For me, it was just this connection to other people, rather than at that point, I was a graduate student in English literature. I was just sitting on my ass all day reading alone, alone, alone, alone.
No fun.
And so, no, no fun, you know, and, and, and fun is undervalued. I think the way I was raised was, you know, everything was kind of utilitarian. You like, "What's the use of this thing? Is this going to help you?"
I don't, 'cause my parents were both slightly artists in a way, but I, I mean that just in the sense of there was a fear of, you know, "You could slip through the cracks here. You could have no vocation, you could have no job, you've got to make some money."
Yeah. So it was...
So you felt that pressure or that expectation, as, as, as, as maybe you did as well, like, "Where am I going to fit in?" You know, like, "Who are my people?"
Think about that. I was just, I know I followed it to college. I just happened to go to the University of Washington, which had at that time a really good training program, three-year repatory training program, for actors. And I literally, I was there kind of, yeah, not knowing what I was going to do, dropped out of school actually for a quarter because I just didn't know. I failed.
Did you have a sense that this was the possibility to have a life as a, a working...?
I knew that I liked it, and I did a Somers stock experience when I was a kid that had equity actors. It was on the, it was on the west, on east coast, sorry. And I said, "Oh, there's actors here. They come from New York. They're getting paid. This is what they do." But I don't even think I thought it through that much. It was just like, "I love this." So, I just said, "I want to do this." And I got accepted into that program, which then puts a, put you on a track pretty much, um, to, and the whole idea was, you know, "You're going to work repatory theater. You're going to live in New York. You're going to audition. You're going to work at Cleveland or Houston."
Yeah.
Yeah. That was going to be it.
You leave school or you finish school or you...?
I was going in the training program, and I left a little early to go work at the Shakespeare Festival in Ashland. That was my first paying gig. Made $550 a month.
Stop bragging.
And I saved money. You still have that same... I still have a pace stub somewhere because I'm a packrat.
Um, so that, and that was, that was the start of it. And then Dune happened eight months after I was out of college.
That's amazing.
Oh, it's, it's ridiculous.
It is rid because it doesn't happen.
It doesn't happen. At the time, I was like, "Oh, yeah." So I do this, and then I was in Seattle. I got a call. I said, "I'm going to go audition." And I auditioned. You know, I had this mindset, probably because I was fresh from school. You audition, you work hard. The next step is, but it was all about the process and nothing about what does this mean, ult, what could this mean ultimately?
When did, when did you make a shift in your head from being a stage actor to auditioning for Dune and thinking, "I'm going to be a movie actor?"
It was all new, 'cause we had no idea there was a difference.
No, and I had never been in front of a camera.
Never.
We had, and we didn't have training for camera back in, so it was '70, '80 to '82, and I graduated in '82 do. So, I just, I just treated it like, you know, I'm working on, you know, the script, and this is what you do when you stand on stage in the dark and someone's way out there listening to you audition, and you have no idea whether they like you or they don't. So,
Did you audition live for David, or was it all done on tape?
Done on tape. The casting agent...
He hired you off of tape.
He, well, he brought me down. They brought me, they flew me to LA, which was another new new experience.
How did you feel?
I didn't know what to... I was just like, "This is crazy."
Yeah.
But, okay. I had a kind of a weird, like, just a drive forward. It wasn't, I wasn't kind of taking everything in. I was just like, "Okay, I'm gonna go down. I'm gonna do this." I stayed at the Beverly Garland Holiday Inn. I've been back since. [laughter]
You have the stub.
I have the stub there for the key somewhere.
You're 22 at this point, right?
22, 20, 22 turning. Yeah. I turned 23 when I'm working. And I just go, um, and I meet David, and of course we, you know, David, and what a wonderful man he was. So, uh, approachable and easygoing.
How was that? Can you remember that first meeting? And did you have a sense that you guys had forged some kind of connection?
I, I did and I didn't. I was so again just kind of focused and intent. I couldn't really relax into the meeting, but he was relaxed. And we talked about the, he grew up, you know, he was born in Missoula. He grew up in the Northwest. We talked about all the things that we shared, 'cause the whole Northwest is similar, particularly on the east side of the ca of the Cascades. And we talked about that. We talked about red wine a little bit story. Oh, yeah. We already just kind of just covering territory, you know.
And then [clears throat] um, and he said, "Great." And then when he said, "Come back in five or six days, and we'll screen test." And then, then I, then it got serious, but then again, the same thing as the script.
Yeah.
I mean, granted, he was a screenplay.
Was he in the room for that?
When I did, when I screen tested? Yeah. Oh, yeah. They did a whole, it was a big thing at, uh, Dystra's old studio, Apogee, John Dystra. And so we did it there, and, uh, I actually did it, just did a, a keynote in my hometown, and I included that moment, 'cause I was in on the doing the screen test, and I was looking right into the lens of the camera, which, you know, we never knew, and I froze. And I thought I just completely screwed up this audition, and I...
You went up.
Yeah. Yeah. [clears throat] I didn't, and it was not a very difficult passage, but I just lost everything, and David came over to me and just sort of talked me down and then said, "No worries, bud, you know, it was just film, we'll go again." And I was like, "Oh, yeah, okay." And I kind of gathered my wits and went forward and worked out, got the job.
Was that when, when he talked to you, is that the kind of direction that, that, that he would give you? Was it more, uh, as you, as you got more into a working relationship, was it usually obtuse like that? You know, not kind of directed right at the material, but like the relaxation or the, it taking your mind off of something and redirecting it?
No, it was more, more, um, mythic kind of. He would direct with qualities or images. "Elvis" was a direction. "More Elvis." [laughter] Yeah. Um,
I've got to try that.
You got to try that. And I would, and so I was like, I, I didn't ask him, or I'd say, "You mean there's no, there's no parsing it?" "Don't, because the minute you talk about it now, you're starting to take away the magic." And that was, I learned that [clears throat] with working with David.
Well, it's a short circuit of your logical mind in a way. You know, it's like, it's trying to speak to some side of your brain that's not, not the one that's going to dial it in correctly, but the one that's going like to be like us. No, it's a vibe, you know. So, I, I picked up on that pretty quickly. And then, he liked that, and he said more, sometimes, "More wind," he would say, "wind," which is a mysterious kind of component, and, you know, and I, and you see in his films, wind coming up, moving stop lights around, trees and things. Exactly. Um, [clears throat] has a, you know, moves you in a certain way, makes you feel a certain thing, right? And this is the way he would describe to me the energy in the scene or the vibe of the scene.
Yeah.
So I would just take that in. He, he...
I'm trying to remember when you came on Twin Peaks, was he directing the episodes that you were?
No.
No, but he did direct in the reboot. In fact, I, I did a scene with him that he directed, Gordon Cole. Yeah. So I was, that [clears throat] was, it was always one of my, um, regrets that I didn't get to work with him.
Yeah.
In [clears throat] fact, I went to the rap party, uh, for you guys, and, uh, he said, "Oh, I'm happy I didn't get, I didn't have to work with you. You were, you're a scene stealer." [laughter]
He said that. I was like, "No, no, no. I'm a team player." Um, well, [clears throat] I think you are, you are, if I can do this, I, I mean, I feel like you as an actor, you're, you have a, a real sense of mystery. So, you are very compelling. So, you do the, do less, in the old phrase, "less is more." You are definitely, "I'm a less Elvis," less, but as equally as engaging and as compelling, and people want to watch you.
Well, thank you. When I went back to do the reboot, um, you know, my, my, my opinion of, of David, I think, is very similar to yours, which is he's, uh, sui generous is the Latin phrase. It's, he's of himself.
Yeah.
Completely. I can't [clears throat] I can't tell his influences. I, I can't imagine anybody being influenced by him. You, you either take him whole or you don't.
Yeah. He's, he's, you can't chew him up. He's just...
Yeah.
So,
I agree with you.
I recognized that early on, I think, when I saw his work. And, um, I wanted very badly for him, you know, to like me when I came back, you know, 2015, you know.
Wow.
Yeah. Been already [clears throat] been 10 years.
Yeah. And, um,
Okay.
I remember [clears throat] I was doing the makeup and the hair for Denise. Uh, and I wasn't pleased with the way I had aged. [laughter] You know, it had been how many?
Oh, I'm right. I'm right there with you.
How many years was it?
Uh, so this is from '88. Was it '88?
'89, '90.
'89, '90 was the air dates.
It was 25 years.
Yeah. Yeah.
So, I was looking at myself in the mirror and I was like, "You know what? I, I, I got to find another way in," [clears throat] "because this ain't working."
Yeah. It [laughter] wasn't working for me. And, uh, so I said to David when I got out on set, and I was shooting this other show called Aquarius. So we were like, I shooting like a Saturday night, like downtown, just a Saturday night.
Okay.
And, um, I said, um, "David, can I do [clears throat] you mind if I, if I, if I perch on the front of the desk and we have the scene like that because my legs were still good, and I, and I wanted to use my legs?"
You do have great legs. And [laughter] and, and, and David said, "That would make me very uncomfortable." He said, and I was like, "Fuck."
Oh, he doesn't like me.
Interesting. No, no, no. I know. But, and I love his [clears throat] sort of like his response was, "Or they'll make his character very uncomfortable."
Uncomfortable. Yeah. Gordon.
Yeah. Gordon.
Which could be a great thing.
Yeah. Well, so he didn't do it that way. But, but, uh, that's my me. So, and also, I want to say while we're on the subject, because I did, I did want to talk about Twin Peaks a little. Yeah, I got the part, and I showed up on set, and you personally were so kind, and this is something that I took, you know, later into my career, when, when, you know, it's your set, like you're the, you're the lead guy, lead.
You set the tone. Yeah.
You set the tone, and [clears throat] you were so kind and supportive and welcoming, and, um, you know, it was really a, a prime example of how to be that guy on set.
Oh, thank you.
And it doesn't, it's not a given. I mean, you've been on other sets where it's not a given at all. Agreed.
And it's, it's a shitty feeling when you're on that other kind of set.
Yeah. And for me, as like a 27, 28-y old guy, just starting to work, also doing a part that's a little out there, you know, and, um,
It was bold to, you were bold to take it at that time.
Well, bold. I, I needed a pot to piss in. [laughter] You know, it's like, you know, that's, that's the part of that they don't boldness. You take what's there, the best thing that you can, the most interesting thing.
What's the part? Yes. That's what I said.
There is a lot. Oh my god. I've been down that road, too. I know. I know exactly what you mean.
Yeah. So, you and, and your brother. I mean, I, I, I felt very lucky to be there. And I, I always wanted to, I'm happy that I got to say that to you today because I've always wanted to.
Joan Fusac was another person who I was an extra on a Mike Nichols movie, on that one with Alec Baldwin and Melanie Griffith.
Uh, Working Girl.
Working Girl. Thank you. Oh, and John Fusac was lovely to me. And you just remember, you remember the pros.
Yeah. So, yeah, it's a, and I, and I've had, as you describe, both the same experiences, and when, when someone goes out of their way just to make you feel good, 'cause it's, you know, you, part of it is just because you, you're a decent person. Part of it is like, you want them to be comfortable so they can do their best work, right? So that the, this other piece is going to be solid, you know, but, um,
And you said to me, "I, I wish you could be in every episode." You said that to me, and I was like, "I, I want to be in every episode."
Great actor. But, but it was also was the second year, and I got to say, there was a diff, there was a different feeling on the set. Well, not that I could compare it to the first year, but, people don't remember, or people can remember, or should remember, that that show was a meteor. That show, it was like, you know, you talk about like subsequent ones recently, Game of Thrones, Last of Us, whatever. But it, this was on a network, which is crazy.
Yeah. 'Cause it's still too wild for even streamers. I don't think it gets made today.
Yeah. Without question.
So the, the cultural imprint of that show was so big and, and so immediate.
Yeah. Yeah.
And I wonder, "Well, I mean, I, I was just relating it to the second year, which was a different, definitely a different feel on that set." Well, the vibe of the, "You remember the first year we, we filmed everything before it ever went to air?"
So, it was a pilot, and then the episodes that they purchased, and I never remember seven or eight. I don't know why this thing, but, um, all of those were filmed before anything had been, before we, in today's, dropped anything, right? [clears throat and cough] Maybe she hadn't dropped it. So, we were mid-season replacement.
Oh, really? Mid-season.
So, it goes, and they put you on Saturday night, right? Nobody watches TV on Saturday night. They, they dumped you.
Yeah.
Yeah. And the expectation, well, the expectation after the pilot was, "We're not going to do, no one's going to buy this as a series." "ABC is not going to pick this up. Come on." You know, it's just, it's David Lynch on television. They're all happy because we were anarchists, right? They let the inmates take over the asylum for a short period of time. But then they were going to, you know, shut us down. But they did. And then they went forward with the next one. And, um, you know, that's when it kind of went, kind of wobbled and, and, you know, lost its...
The specialness. You mean the second, the second season?
Last half of the second season. Yeah. Right.
With moments of brilliance.
I think that's when I came in exactly then. And, and, and to save [laughter] the day.
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If we can go back, yeah, to Dune, right? So, like, I don't really agree with other people's conceptions of failure and success. I have my own, but let's say, well, you come, how many, how many months you've been auditioning? Is one of the first things you've auditioned for, right?
It's the first film.
First film.
The first screenplay I ever read.
That is ridiculous. Dune was the first screenplay, and Blue Velvet was the second screenplay [laughter] I ever read.
That is, that, that is not...
Engineers waiting. Yay. Um, out there is like, "Yeah. Yeah. Fuck you." [laughter] So, lightning strikes. You win the lotto. You, your first godamn it movie audition. You get this big movie, even though David Lynch is not yet David Lynch.
No. Elephant man. You know, he had a beautiful beautiful film.
Extraordinary.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And then, are you sitting there thinking, "Oh my god, I'm on my way?" Or what, what are you thinking at that point?
Well, it's a, it's a mixed bag because people were telling me, "This is going to change your life forever," you know, and I'm like, "I have no concept of what that is." It's in my head. "I'm an actor. This is a part. I'm doing this thing." I don't know what that means. Um, and then contractually, I, I was not allowed to do film or television until Dune was released. So we finished filming, I finished my bits in September, October of '83.
Yeah.
Movies released in December of '84.
I got nothing to do. So I go back and do a play.
Oh, I'm back home up in Seattle. I do that, and I kind of pop around and do some things. And...
How was your experience actually doing the work?
The thing was, I knew the character. I knew Paul so well because I'd read the book when I was 14 for the first time, and must have read it a dozen times before I [snorts] got the call, really out of the blue. Yeah, it was a monumental book for me.
It changed my junior high and high school years. I mean, I knew almost every page.
What was it about that particular story that spoke to you?
Character for sure. Being a, being a pretty shy, sort of frightened kid growing up that I sort of tried to put back by just being the funny guy. Um, but secretly, I'm like, terrified of everything. Um, and here was Paul who was going through this experience and seemed to like, really, I just, I appreciated the journey of what he was going through and how he was able to sort of fight through the fear. There's a wonderful "fear is the mind killer" quote that Frank Herbert wrote in the book. "It's a little death that brings total," well, "fear is the mind killer. It brings fear is the little death that brings total obliteration. Uh, I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me, and where my fear has gone, I will turn the inner eye to see its path." And then you say, "And where fear has gone, there will nothing will remain, and there will be, there will be nothing, only I will remain." So I'm like, "Okay, so you have to let this fear." So, you know, it was a teaching moment really for me, and, uh,
That should have been the quote for this podcast. [laughter]
So, Dune comes out, and it feels like a failure. No. Yes.
In the business, yeah, world. Yeah. It was.
But again, it was, I was in my mind, I said, "Well, I've done Dune. I had to do five Dune pictures and three non-Deune pictures." That was the contract I had with Dorentes.
Jesus. They don't do that anymore. [laughter]
But that was it. I was coming from, I say, not relative obscurity, complete obscurity. So they had all the cards, right?
Well, also, you know, you're looking at that and you're going, "That's eight movies."
Well, yeah, exactly. There's that side of it, too.
"I'm going to do eight movies."
"I'm gainfully employed for the next, you know, 40 years."
So, um, but of course, when Dune came out, [clears throat] they said, "Well, all contract was, you know, done." So, I didn't, and I didn't really grasp the, didn't really read reviews. I didn't really get the fact that there was a, the money part of this was a huge problem because they'd spent x number of dollars on it, wasn't recouping, just the language of the business that I, I don't know, and I didn't really make it a my business to sort of learn about it, which was dumb. But...
That's not dumb. I think that's healthy.
What it was. So I, so I drove to LA and got a place, and, and, um, I had a man, I had an agent, and I had a manager, someone was helping me. And so I said, "I got that, you know, that was good," right? So let's see what happens. And I started auditioning, and I was awful, really awful.
Every audition, no audition was ever like...
Meeting Dave, David wasn't even an audition. It was a meeting first, and then you did, then you learned the dialogue, and then you did the scenes. That made sense to me. But this other stuff, I was like, "I don't know what I'm..." And I'm standing here with the page. "I don't know if your audition experience is, it's awful."
Well, yeah. I, I didn't get a lot of parts. I mean, probably more than 100 auditions that I didn't get.
Yeah.
And, um,
I'm right there with you. But I understand completely.
But, but coming from, you know, that initial hit that you had, you know, to, to get, to get that, it must have been confusing in some way, you know?
Without question, 'cause you sort of feel like, and I think I, I carried a chip on my shoulders, like, "Hey, I've done this lead in this major motion picture. Okay, didn't do well, but haven't I proved something that would, you know, mean that I wouldn't necessarily have to go in for everything?" Um,
Right. Yeah.
But there was no, people weren't interested. They, they, the audition was the only way.
Yeah. Remember it was like, "Oh, you'll go straight to producers," or, "No, you, you're going to go to the casting director." "No, you're going to go to the casting director's associate." [laughter] Yes.
Then you go to the castle.
Then you go forward.
Yeah.
So, it was all of that. So, and I responded by being kind of, I was sort of cavalier. I said, "Well, fuck it." You know what I mean? "I'm just going to, I'm not even really going to prepare. I'm just going to go in, you know, let inspiration carry the day. They should know. They should know that I'm, you know," and it was bad attitude. Um, and didn't really work. And then David, bless his heart, came back with Blue Velvet, which we had talked about during Dune.
You had talked about it.
Yeah. And he said, "You know, this," and he was very keen on having me as Jeffrey, and I thought the script was unbelievable. It was very [sighs] like, "This is dangerous but compelling, and I'm really intrigued," all of that. I wanted to understand more of that journey, and we finally went, we started filming in, um, August, I think, of '85. So,
It's a couple years after...
Eight months after the release of Dune, and two years. Yeah, it was two years, more than two years since I had shot Dune.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I was like, "Okay."
You said something really interesting in, in that article, and I would, I would send people to read that article that you wrote because it's beautifully written, and it's, it's a beautiful sentiment sentiment. Um, you said, "Where do I have it? No, I didn't know always understand what we were making. Sometimes I get a sense of it, and then like on a breeze it was gone. Other times it seemed to exist on a plane that I wanted to reach but couldn't quite articulate. But eventually I realized it didn't matter."
Yes. It took a while. [laughter]
Can you unpack that for me?
Well, we, I think we understand about David, you know, the what he creates is, is to be experienced, not necessarily understood intellectually.
Yeah.
At least some level of that. But I think the, the real impact is, is in just the journey and immersing yourself in that journey and in that world. And I learned on Dune, I was a much more, you know, like, "Okay, in this scene here, I'm, I'm saying this, but, you know, this is what's, you know," I had all these questions for him, right? And he was very generous for about the first six or seven minutes of the conversation, and then his eyes would glaze over, and, and, and I would just go, "Okay." And I did the same thing with Blue Velvet. I still kind of, but I was starting to pick up on, it took me a while to pick up on the fact that this really wasn't his favorite form of dialogue between, because he didn't like answering all these questions. And so then I just kind of with Twin Peaks backed off even further, right?
And Twin Peaks was pretty, pretty clear, Dale Cooper. And I, I, and I also modeled him a little bit on David, physically, and, uh, and the way he spoke.
Um,
Yeah.
And gradually during the course, was David aware of that? Did he, did he ever say, "Yeah?"
He may have been. He didn't say, he never said [laughter] it because he's like, you know, sometimes he's like, "Here now, you know, David, I really need you." Um, so I would steal some mannerisms from him, but I did, I slowly began to sort of, and when we did the return in 2015, um, I, I rarely did, I, I just kind of sometimes I wanted just a little, "Am I on the right track here?"
Well, that's interesting, too, because in The Return, you were all over the place. I mean, your character was stretched in ways that you never would have thought coming out of the show. No. So, if there was ever a time when you were, when you would go, "What the fuck?" It would be then, but, but it seems like at that point you guys were so kind of joined in some way or were communicating in some way that you, you just got it. And your work is amazing.
Thank you. I'm really proud of that. Thank you.
"Locked in" was the word the kids use, and I was locked in. [laughter] Um, and it was, it was an exercise in courage, really, you know, particularly the Douggee character. Well, both Douggee and the character of the Mr. doppelganger. That was, um, upon reading the first, my first reading of the, which was 500 pages of script, I recognized pretty quickly what he was asking me to do, and, and I, and also that if I wasn't, you know, the scariest fuck to walk down, then it's not going to work, you know? So, I'm like, "I've always wanted to play like a villain, right? And I've always wanted to try to exercise that side of me, but I've never had a chance. And I've never, did I really want to, or was I just saying that, you know, I was like talking myself into this, 'You should challenge yourself,' right? You don't have to, but," and this was an opport, this was, he just said, "No, you're, this is the opportunity." I was like, "Okay, well, at least I'm going in here with David, you know, and if it have any chance of succeeding, it's going to be because of him." And, and it really worked. There was a character I didn't like, and maybe had this experience where you have a character that I didn't like getting into him every day.
Yeah.
Because of the humanity just dropped out. I, but there was a tremendous sense of power when I was in this character. And it's not like I walked around all day like that, but I, but you kind of keep the burners on, right? And then someone that I was so happy to put up on the rack, hang up the coat hanger, and put him in the trailer at the end of the day. And I had a long drive back from set usually to just, you know, let that go.
So you wouldn't bring him home.
Wouldn't bring him home. Did you ever, do you ever have a character that sort of, um, that you felt...?
I guess in Californication? I mean, I, I kind of, it, the, the sense of empowerment that I got from, from that show was, this was a guy who had no filter, you know, and I have, I have a filter, you know, so, but I don't want to. None of us really want to. And so I would go to work all day and say, "Fuck," you know, and just like, it was, it felt, it felt, it felt fun, you know? Like it's not me. But then I, it would be a mistake to bring that home as well.
It would be. [laughter]
Um, but, but when you were, when you were stretching in those aspects of the character or different characters, what, I'm not even sure, you know, what they were, you know, I, who knows, aspects of the psyche, maybe.
Yeah.
Was, did you have, you weren't having those discussions with David? You were just kind of intuitively going off each other at that point.
Yeah. Yeah. Mr. for, for the doppelganger or Mr. C character, we created him kind of from the outside in.
"More Elvis." "More Elvis."
"More Elvis." [laughter] Not too much Elvis. Um, but it was the, the look, all the, everything that was, that went into making that visual of him, and [snorts] to the point where I would look at myself in the mirror, particularly because we did a, we chose to do a kind of an opaque lens. Um, which I went to David with, and I wasn't sure, I said, but he saw it. And they said, "No, this is right for this character."
Right.
Um, 'cause there's a deadness there. There's the shark eyes, you know, and, uh, and that, that really, really helped. Um, but we, we, and even to the, the last touch was the makeup on the face, the darkening of the skin, the dirtying of that skin.
Yeah.
And I saw that, and I was just like, "Oh, yeah."
Yeah. It can be helpful to work outside in sometimes. I've got no problem either way because whatever, wherever you're going, you're ultimately going in.
Yeah.
It's just how you get there.
There's a lot of, there's a lot of roads.
And Douggee was just courage because I had to, I had to believe that nothing was everything. "I'm doing nothing." I mean, "I'm literally doing nothing."
"How long can you do nothing?" [laughter] You know, it was like, and I would just stand there, and David would just go, "Yeah, keep, keep going. [laughter] Hold that look," you know, in that voice of his, you know, from behind the camera, "Oh, Gale," you know, he'd say [laughter] just, you know, and then it's a, then it's like not holding, just trying not to laugh because we do that too where we try to make each other laugh. Um, it's just part of the joy working with him. So special. So special. Before moving on to more recent stuff. Yeah. Um, I don't really know how to phrase this question, but you say in, in that article that I've referenced, um, that he, that David, you know, created you in some ways.
Yeah. Um, yeah. What is, what does that feel like to have that kind of sympatico with a fellow creator? And what does it feel like to lose that person? You know, like, what, what, what has been, and you know, these feel like failures sometimes when we lose people, even though we know it's death and we know it happens, but there's a loss, there's a sense of diminishment.
Yeah. And I'm wondering, the loss I felt for him was, um, I mean, everybody's experience is going to be different. There's the immediate, depending on how close you were, and we were close. We didn't talk every day. Um, but for me, I always, David, for me, was always in his home, uh, not far from where I live, actually. Um, working, like he was in his woodshop. He was painting up in the crow's nest. He was editing in the studio, making music. He was making coffees in the little kitchen. He was [clears throat] always doing, always working. So, it's kind of strange. He, you know, he, I go there, there's a memorial service. I know he's gone, but I'm like, I'm not, I'm not, he's gone, you know, in my, I'm like, yeah. And I'm like, I'm, I'm sort of sad, but I'm like, and then I saw, um, the advertisement saying that his house was for sale, the, the compound for sale. And pictures, images of the interior, and it really hit me and I was like, "Fuck, he's not there where I know him to be." And I just thought it was, I just, you register, like, that's an odd place for it to manifest, but that's how it, that's how it came to me.
Um, and in terms of creating, I mean, yes, I think there's, there's a lot of truth to that. Dune and Blue Velvet were my first two films. And you couldn't find two more completely different films, styles, you know, texture, characters than those two. And the movies or television shows that that cast me after that, there was always an influence of that, and including Twin Peaks. Mark Cherry, Desperate Housewives. >> Love Twin Peaks, you know. And it was like, and I think there was, >> I think there was a certain kind of a luster that I, because of my work with David, that I just, that got passed on to me. Um, justifiably or not, it was just because of my proximity with him and because we had done amazing work together and I love the man so dearly. But when I was younger, in this, it was, it felt to me like this is somewhat of a, not a straight jacket, but was some kind of enclosing me in this. I mean, I, I tell you what, there was, as I got older and we came back, particularly for the return.
>> Mhm. >> Yeah. I, I grew up, you know, there's a maturity that settles in. There's an understanding and there's, there's an appreciation and a gratitude that comes in and kind of smacks you in the face and said, >> "Listen, you are one of the luckiest motherfuckers." Yeah. >> Here. >> Yeah. >> And when we went to go back again and I knew I had a chance to work with my dear friend and this creative genius, I was like, I cherished every day. I can tell you, I got up every morning, I was like, I'm so happy to go to work. I'd make my coffee in my kitchen. I get to work with David today and I am so happy. And that doesn't happen in every [laughter] film, as you know, but for this, it was [clears throat] there, that was where I, I had the understanding of just how lucky I was to have worked with him.
So, and on the, the converse of that, though, have you ever given yourself the space to say, David was lucky to find me? Uh, no. >> Never. [laughter] >> No, I don't even think like, >> I bet, I bet he would say that, though. >> He, we had a connection there, as he has a connection with Laura Dern, >> right? >> As he has a connection with other people that he's worked with, artists that he's worked with. But I'm saying the work would not have been exactly what it is had it not been for you as well. You know that you can give yourself that kind of a, I, you're right. You're right. Yeah. I think I certainly, um, >> you know, in some ways I feel like I was a really good, um, clay to work, you know, David got to kind of mold, you know, >> interpreter. >> And that's what I was. And I've come to understand that that I'm, that I'm, I'm the person carrying an audience into a world that is unusual and scary and maybe slightly off-kilter. Um, and I think, and I used to say that and then I said, you know, there's something else. I said, there is a stability, >> I think, to me, you know, everything is kind of measured in level that I think was important as people went through this. And I said, I think that's also part of, cuz I thought, you know, what, what was it that he >> saw in you? >> Saw in me? And I'm thinking, I'm thinking, yeah, those things, but, but kind of a down-to-earth regular person, um, stable, [snorts] you believe in him. Certainly with Dale Cooper.
>> Yeah. >> Which is why when we lose him at the end of that second season of the first go-round, it was such a, I was so excited about the idea of playing this and then ABC canceled us. But I [laughter] was like, "Oh, I get to take that idea of Cooper and and turn it on its head." You know, >> what's that going to be like? You know, >> I believe that humility is a super important quality. We have so much to learn from others and that's why I love Masterclass. Through my own research, I've really come to appreciate the creative practice of the writer Joyce Carol Oats and she just happens to have a fascinating class about short stories. I'm sure that pretty soon I'll be quoting it to anyone who will listen. With MasterClass, you can learn from the best to become your best. Plans start at just $10 a month and that gives you unlimited access to over 200 classes. They're taught by the world's best business leaders, writers, chefs, and more. And every new membership comes with a 30-day money back guarantee. That's the kind of learning I like. Low stakes. Learn to eat more ethically, healthfully, and sustainably with Michael Pollen. Or build habits that stick with Atomic Habits author James Clear. These are bite-sized lessons with big impact, which means they can fit into even the busiest schedules, and they really make a difference. Three out of four surveyed members feel inspired every time they watch MasterClass. Right now, our listeners get an additional 15% off any annual membership at masterclass.com/failbetter. That's 15% off at masterclass.com/failbetter. Masterclass.com/failbetter. This episode of Fail Better is brought to you by Booking.com. If you're looking to expand the reach of your vacation rental business, you've got to check out Booking.com. Since 2010, they've helped over 1.8 billion guests find a place to stay. Yes, 1.8 billion with a B. But here's the thing, most vacation rental hosts don't even realize they can list their properties on Booking.com. And if you're not on the platform, your rental is basically invisible to millions of Booking.com travelers worldwide. After all, they can't book what they can't see, right? When you list on Booking.com, your property gets seen by a massive global audience of all different kinds of travelers. You get more visibility, more bookings, and more opportunity to grow your rental business. And it honestly couldn't be easier. You can register your property in as little as 15 minutes. And nearly half of Booking.com hosts get their first booking within one week. So, if your vacation rental isn't listed on Booking.com, it could be invisible to millions of travelers searching the platform. Don't miss out on consistent bookings and global reach. [snorts] Head over to booking.com and start your listing today. Get seen, get booked on booking.com.
I wanted to, uh, to talk a little bit about the, uh, the podcast because that's, uh, that's coming. That's starting. You've started doing it. >> I dropped a few. Yeah. >> And, you know, it's so hard to come up with a good podcast idea because it's like, everybody has had a podcast at this point. >> It's like Warhol's things. It's like, in the future, everybody will have had a podcast. >> But your idea is good, you know. It's, it's a hooky idea. >> It's a hooky idea. It wasn't, it was, >> Explain it. It was, well, it's really just, um, so, the podcast is called What Are We Even Doing?
>> And you can say that. What are we even doing? What are we even doing? And I, I sit down with Gen Z, young millennials, and we have a conversation like we're having here, just about their creative process. So, I'm, I'm curious as to, you know, how they get into a character or what were the moments when they knew this is what I wanted to do. You, a lot of what we've talked about as well, and how do they use social to amplify their platform, their message? Um, what are their ultimate goals? And I speak to, um, I've spoken to, I guess, Kaia Gerber, she's model, actress, um, comedians, um, Dylan O'Brien, wonderful, um, young actor as well. And, and, uh, Willa Bennett has been, have her coming up actually in the, in the queue, um, is editor-in-chief of, um, Cosmo. So, just really kind of approaching it as there's a generation, couple of generations that are the new creators. Yeah. >> And so what's important to them? And we literally just sit and have a conversation. I have a few questions, but I, I end up, as we're doing, we kind of go off on tangents and come back to a few things that I want to ask about them. Um, and I've really, I've had a great time. I, I didn't know what to expect. I don't know if you had that experience when you started. You're like, "Well, >> try this." But [clears throat] >> yeah, I mean, I, I, I thought it would be easier than it was. Um, >> at first, anyway. >> And I thought, >> yeah, I don't, I don't know what I thought, but what I, what I admire about what you're doing is because I, I'm, I'm coming from a, you know, I need, I need a little bit of you because I'm like, [ __ ] you in your social media. [laughter] [ __ ] you and all that. >> Yes, understood. >> And, uh, I'm all that's when I, when I read about that and when I, I listened to one, I was like, "Fuck yeah." You know, like that's a good attitude to have because you don't want to be the, the older guy who's saying, "In my day." Yeah. And I feel like, you know, we're probably similar there. There are, we have our mentors and our inspirations, right? I mean, you think of Marlon Brando, right? Or you think of James Dean, you go on and on, the list of actors, you know, Paul Newman, etc. >> I don't know. I, I never, I don't look, haven't been looking back. I realized and saying, well, who >> who inspires me that's younger than me? You know, and there's plenty, but I said, >> what's happening there? >> And I, maybe part of it motivated by my son who's 17. >> Um, and he's, you know, he has his people he follows and he, and I'm like, >> well, what's, what does that look like? You know, certainly his music and I like his musical tastes and I'm like, and my parents were like, "Turn off that noise," that was that generation. But I'm like, "No, no, this is interesting. I like this." The language is is a little [laughter] intense. But I said, "I get it." Okay. Um, >> so it's been a curiosity about what's, [snorts] you know, what's coming. >> Yeah. No, I, I admire that because I'm, you know, as I said, my impulse is to like, I'm going to teach you something, kid. >> Um, and when you turn it like that, it seems like an easy turn, but it's not. And I don't see anybody else >> doing that. And I think actually it can be kind of profound. Just the fact that you're doing it is profound. And I think that, >> you know, it's, it's a really interesting idea. >> Why not? And I, I, I agree. And as we've gotten into it, I've only done, done 10 and we've dropped. >> That's a lot, though. >> But it's a good chunk. >> Yeah. >> Cuz it's like this. You sit down. There's a lot of preparation. And you have your preparation here. And >> this is all, this is all gibberish. [laughter] >> That doesn't even pertain to me. Wait a minute. That's your shopping list. What am I thinking? That's groceries for the day. >> Yes. >> 2% milk. [laughter] >> How do you feel about 2% milk? >> I'm a big believer in 2% milk. Although for if I'm going to go into, and I'm, I do coffee black. If I'm going to go dairy, I'll do a whole milk. >> I'm so go all in. [laughter] >> You know. Okay. >> You only live once. But, and if you've done 10, did you, I, I do recall I was doing my first one with, uh, my first, uh, podcast with Ben Stiller and I was thinking, "Oh, this is going to be easy." Cuz I know Ben, we're friends and >> you know, >> it's a great idea. Yeah, I thought I got rid and it was, you know, I think it's, I think it was good, but it was, I didn't feel comfortable, you know, and I'm just wondering if if you have >> and part of this was I thought [clears throat] I, I thought I wanted to get somewhere. >> And >> yeah, I don't. Yeah, I, I don't. >> That's, that's the key. >> Because I don't think I'm capable. I know I'm not capable, actually, of structure. >> But, but I mean, the way you worked with David was intuitive, you know, that there wasn't like an end result trying to >> trying to come out. And that's >> conversationally, I think you get to these places that >> are more interesting if you just >> don't try to >> control the reins. >> Let them run. Yeah. >> Uh, do you want to, do you want to tell me a little about your wine? I'm a little, uh, unhappy that you didn't bring me. I can't believe I forgot to bring. I, I've drunk all my wine, actually. [laughter] That's the problem. I will get wine to you. Um, sure. >> But I like the fact that it's, it's connected to your childhood. It's connected to that part of the world that you're still. And I worked in Vancouver for five years and I, I share >> Okay. >> the love and the, uh, the yearning, actually, to to be back there always. You know, once you've spent time in the Pacific Northwest, >> um, it's, it's one of the most beautiful places in the world. I've been all around the world and it's still >> I agree. Verdant. >> Verdant. Green. >> Verdant. See, that's the English major right there. Verdant. Who uses verdant in this? [laughter] >> Try to use verdant. >> Verdant. And you have a yellow line around him. That's so very good. >> No, he doesn't. Um, completely agree. Love Vancouver. >> Yeah. >> As a city. One of my favorite cities. Stanley Park up there. It's just, come on. When I could run, that was my, my break on my run. [clears throat] >> You can bike. You can bike. >> You can bike. Yeah, I can bike. I'll pay the price after my knees. Well, swimming is really the, the thing. I don't like to swim. >> You don't like to swim? No, I love swimming. Did you >> You love? Did you ever, um, well, you have the red, you don't like the red, >> but you didn't, you didn't ever, uh, because you don't like to swim, but they've got this amazing pool in Vancouver. I don't know if you know the one. No, >> it's the largest pool in North America. >> Holy smokes. So, you got to be in the lane for a long time. >> There's no, there's no bu, it's Canadian, so everybody's very polite [laughter] about >> Sorry, excuse me. Pardon me. >> Pardon me. >> You know, we make fun of Canadians for that, but God love them. You know, God love him for absolutely for being >> being humane. >> Yes. So, so, so anyway, connection to the soil. >> Yes. Yes. I growing up in Yakama, now, Washington is actually two states, of course. It's got the green side, which is west of the Cascades, and then the, the dry, low desert side, which is on the east side where I'm from. Uh, agricultural, I mean, it's the fruit basket of the nation, as they say. Everyone takes credit for that, but I think it really is. Everything grows there. Um, and I grew up working in the garden, mowing the lawn with my brothers, having lawn jobs, picking fruit during the fall season when fruit was ripe. And so I was like, I, you know, you're tuned into this kind of world and then went off to seek my fortune. And, uh, but I came back primarily because my dad was ailing a little in bad health and I hadn't, you know, I'd go home like Christmas, maybe sometime in the summer, twice a year, and I said, "This is not enough." And I've all at this concurrently I was thinking, you know what, I like the wine world was starting to take root. >> I was saying concurrently I was thinking I like wine. [laughter] >> I like wine. No, concurrently. I've always liked wine. In fact, in high school, I liked wine. I was one of that again, that strange nerdy kid. >> Yeah. [snorts] >> And I said, maybe this is, um, I'd like to explore that a little bit. And it seems to be sort of happening in Washington state. And then I said, it gives me a chance to see my dad. We can do something together. I don't know if with parents, my dad and I, we were >> to [snorts] do something together was always we were facing forward. So, activities like walking, if we're playing golf, you know, you're walking forward and you're talking, you know, side to side. Driving in a car, you're talking side to side. Um, and I said, it's not sit down with a coffee and look at each other and go, "Okay, how are you feeling?" It's like that at all. >> It's hard. >> It's hard. Or in the garden, you know, he'd be doing something, I'd be doing here, helping out. Anyway, the wine business seemed like the right thing. So I had made the acquaintance of a, of a winemaker in Walla Walla, Eric Dunham, and, and he agreed to partner with me. And so 2005, I'd had my first vintage.
>> Uh, we did 300 cases of a blend called Pursued by Bear. >> English major, you know that reference. >> I, I knew it. Exunt. >> Exuent. Pursued by a bear. >> Pursued by, which was special effects back then. >> I think so, too. People forget about. I just read this book called Will in the World. Have you read it? >> No. Should I? Is it good? All right. Good stuff. I mean, it's a little disappointing because you realize Shakespeare was, uh, he, he was, you know, they say, I think it was Baudelaire said, you know, to be great in art, you must be bourgeois in your, in your habits, you know, and so you >> Okay. >> And you were like, no, Shakespeare is just a bourgeois guy, you know, he liked to make his money and, you know, he wanted a coat of arms really badly and, you know, >> Come on, who doesn't want a coat of arms at the end of the day? >> Right. >> I totally get. >> I would have thought he was this rebel that didn't give a [ __ ] about any of that, but, and I'm fine with him. You know, he was a, he was a working actor and a working writer. And so >> if you have Exit Pursued by a bear, you realize he's, he's playing to the cheap seats. >> Yeah. >> Which is great. I love that because I think we put Shakespeare on this pedestal as this, this >> one-off genius is impossible to understand when in fact he, he was working in the equivalent of television. Yes. Like, I like trying, we think of some of the plays for goodness sakes. Let's just chop a bunch of people up on stage. >> That, but also the jokes and the jokes were very bawdy. Anyway, so go ahead. So it's pursued by >> Pursuit. That was the stage direction. Act three, scene three of The Winter's Tale. So I just took Pursued by Bear. Nothing else. Honestly, nothing else was working there. Everything else that I tried was trademarked. And I wanted something that was sort of, >> you know, a nod to my theater roots. I love Shakespeare. I said, "Let's try that." And it, it cleared. So, we were there. We were pursued by bear.
>> Um, we had 300 case production. And I would bring my dad down as we would go through the process. Um, I was telling [snorts] a story recently about, uh, we went, we had been visiting the Dunham family. We went down and they said, "Hey, do you want to come down and do some barrel tasting?" And I said, "That sounds great. I've never done that. Let's try that. Let's see what I've >> Never tasted a barrel. >> Right. I mean, what do you just lick it? [laughter] You just lick the side of it. >> Barrel tasting is you go in. You go in and you >> I just saw it. I saw >> Yeah. You go in and you extract. Oh, >> yeah. I saw somebody put that little gizmo in there. >> It's like a long kind of a glass tube. You go in, you grab, you siphon it out, and you put it in the glass and you, um, you swirl it around, you sniff it, you taste it. [snorts] >> And the, I think the wine had been in the barrel for four or five months, so really young. And, um, >> so I tasted it and I was like, "Oh Jesus, this is not good." And, um, but I was putting on a good face. My dad was standing next to me and I said, "What, what did you, what do you think?" and he said, "Oh, this tastes awful." [laughter] Like I was like, "Thanks for the vote of encouragement." And then he went on to say, "Are you sure you're working with the right people?" [laughter] Eric is standing right there. And I'm like, "Dad, dad, dad, >> you've been doing this for 10 years." And Eric said, "No, no, no. This is exactly where it should be at this particular point." >> So anyway, just a little sidebar of, you know, my dad was, he could be the, he's your biggest fan and, and you can be your toughest critic. >> Yeah, that was him. So, >> yeah. Um, and where it's been a satisfying journey with, with the wine. You're still >> Completely. Yeah. Yeah. I get to go home. We talked about that. And Eastern Washington is similar between Yakima and Walla Walla. It's, it's, it's like I said, egg-centric. Walla Walla is a little more wheat farming than up where I'm from, but very similar. Um, [clears throat] and, and just, um, something completely different, you know, with a whole other culture, >> Right? >> And people that I absolutely adore and love and work with. And it's a struggle. I do something on the wine every day. I'm either on my computer, I'm, I was just talking to my distribution manager this morning before I came and we're figuring out something for Vegas. >> And, and I just love it. I really do. >> I was trying to come up with a really clever kind of ending to our our talk because I, I knew I, I figured we'd probably talk about wine last and I, and I wanted to try and couch the idea of wine as failure in action because it's like, it's, it's rotten. It's, it's fruit that's gone. >> Fermented. Exactly. >> And, uh, so maybe, maybe that's the lesson for us all here is, you know, that we can only hope that our rotten fruit. >> Yes. >> That we is a pleasure. It is enjoyable. [laughter] Something we savor. >> And can get other people high. >> Exactly. Right. [music]
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