Swedenborg’s 5 Most ‘Heretical’ Ideas—All Backed by Jesus

Swedenborg: heretic or visionary? People who write into the show have charged us with the fact that, hey, Swedenborg, this is heresy. It's against the idea of Jesus as the only savior. It's against the idea of the divinity of Jesus. It doesn't teach a trinity. He's against the authority of the Bible and other Christian essentials. Yeah. But is that really what Swedenborg says? Or why don't we take a minute to look at the source material and then you at home can judge for yourself because you know, you got to take care of your soul. So, uh, let's get after it.

All right. Cool. Hey everybody, welcome to the Swedenborg and Life podcast. My name is Curtis Childs. I'm here as always with Dr. Jonathan Rose. Hey Curtis, how you doing? Good. Good. We We got to talk about heresies today. Today's show is Swedenborg's five most quote heretical ideas all backed by Jesus. This is a debate that's been raging around Swedenborg since the Gothnberg trials. Yeah, where he was actually put on trial for his teachings because people were saying, "Are these heretical?" Um, he was well enough placed that they couldn't actually put him physically on trial, but they did put his works on trial because he was a member of the nobility. Yes. Right. He was he was in with the royal family and he Yeah. He knew all the bishops and Yeah. It was it was he he was kind of untouchable, but they put his works on trial. And um the only problem was that the people who were challenging him were not willing to read his books to find out whether he said these things that he was to show like this is so important. I'll win this great legal case. I'm not reading those things. So let we'll get the same thing on this show. Yeah. And people can in the contemporary world will attack Swedenborg and say because he uh is in the Christian world, he talks about the Bible, he talks about Jesus, this arouses the distrust of some people like, wait a second, he's also saying a bunch of things that don't seem like they're really Christian, but they won't go in and really read the book. So yeah, and and yet I I respect the the questions or the the challenge because they're talking about the most, you know, those are really really important. if he if he fails that test. Yes, this we've really got a a problem here.

Oh, and so I want to start with that. Why is it such a problem whether or not your teachings are correct? And I think this is a particularly Christian fear. I mean, there's plenty of people who would watch this channel who wouldn't consider themselves a Christian. And the idea, oh, is he does he have the right teaching here or there on the Trinity or something? What's the big deal? But in Christianity in particular, and maybe in other organized religions, but there's this thing that's called heresy, and it's deadly serious. So, in case anyone's not familiar, what is a what is a heresy, and why would you care if something's a heresy or not? Yeah. I mean, the the a heresy would be unorthodox teaching. It it's some breakaway view. The whole nyine council for example uh I believe or at least part of the motivation for it was to address this arryanism which was this idea that Jesus had a completely different substance from God the father and so other people felt like whoa whoa you're you're diverging from Christianity here we've got to close the gate before all the you know animals run out or you were saying even even in Paul's epistles he's trying to stamp out certain ideas there are already yeah heterodox ideas or or whatever you want to call them. Yeah. Yeah. That that's and so trying to establish those things seems seems important and but practically speaking over time I think heresy is something you disagree with right at somebody else who has a different view than your own. In Christianity though the stakes are super high because there's a lot of people in in Christianity who believe that if you have the wrong ideas you go to hell. Yeah, that's not the case with every religion, but in Christianity, if you if you don't and not in all branches of Christianity, but in some if you have the wrong ideas, you go to hell. So, people get worried when they see our show and they think these guys are teaching this is poison because if you're teaching the wrong ideas, you're leading people to hell. These are the main and I think it's especially where if if beliefs are considered the most important thing and the defining thing. Yeah. Then wrong beliefs are a really huge problem. Yeah. But Swedenborg would even question whether that's the right isn't love the most important thing and doesn't love inform your beliefs, you know, and that's we're going to get into that discussion as we get into this. I think that though a lot of the fears even that Swedenborg doesn't do the orthodoxy thing are somewhat unfounded. The the the main charges leveled as as you mentioned um does he really believe Jesus is the only savior? Does he believe in the divinity of Jesus? Does he believe in the Trinity, the authority of the Bible, and then the essentials of the Christian church? Yeah. Let's just let's see what he says about it and you can judge for yourself, right? And I think the argument we're going to make here is that on all those topics, I'm looking at the camera because I feel like this is a bold claim. This is a hot take. Swedenborg is more in line with the actual teachings of Jesus Christ than a lot of Christianity is. Yeah. I Okay. I'm just I mean, you know, I'm just saying I I think it's arguably super Christian. It's extra Christian or Yeah. Um but but extrachristian in a way in which people who aren't Christians can still go to heaven. We'll get to that in a minute. Yes. I'm just there. There's not where if it if it quacks like a duck. Okay. There's a comment we got. Let's start talking about this. The the charge is that Swedenborg denies that Jesus is the only savior. Yeah. Yeah. We got there's actually a comment we got from one of our viewers who said, "I was digging into ES, which is Emanuel Swedenborg, his teachings, and saw red flags." Red flags. Swedenborgism. He's calling looks like Christianity by its appearance. like got you you wouldn't confuse it like you would some new age but he's got it looks but it but really isn't it doesn't teach that only Jesus saves yeah which is a great definition of of Christianity but the way Swedenborg holds that yeah it's interesting let's get into it okay so our our the argument that I would have is that Swedenborg does teach that only Jesus saves and he teaches it in a lot of places notably though here in secrets of heaven 14. So he wrote a book series the first thing he wrote in his theological phase called secrets of heaven. This is right near the beginning of it and this is what he says from this point on and you can tell me if you feel like this is teaching only Jesus saves. From this point on the term lord is used in only one way to refer to the savior of the world Jesus Christ and the name lord is used without any additions. He is acknowledged and revered. This is Jesus Christ as Lord throughout heaven because he possesses all power in heaven and on earth. He also commanded this when he said, "You address me as Lord. You speak correctly because so I am." John 13:13. And his disciples called him Lord after the resurrection. Yeah. That's all all power has been given to me in heaven and on earth. Matthew 28:18. Yeah. He Jesus says that right there in the New Testament. So to me that's pretty Jesus is the the only uh savior if not only is he the sa called here by Swedenborg the savior of the world but also saying that he is revered as lord throughout heaven because he possesses all power in heaven and on earth. If you got all the power you're probably going to be the one doing the saving, right? He has a very very exalted view of of Jesus. It and even maybe more so than some Christianity which will say Jesus is great. It's because of you because of him that the father kind of chilled out and and doesn't want to destroy you anymore. It's it's really the father, if I understand that view correctly, who does the sending you to heaven or sending you to hell. Yes. And so Jesus intervening. He's the mediator. But he and so he's the savior in that sense that he figured out a workound to stop you from being condemned by the father. But the father's really what the one with that power to send you to heaven or hell. Well, because Jesus had to play by the father's rules, right? Like Jesus couldn't just say, "Stop being angry at them." He had to go down and do the cross and come on, take this cup away from me terribly and pray. Yeah. And if if you're if you go ahead, leave a comment because like I I feel like I approximately know the contemporary Christian view on this. I I mostly read it through I'm not an expert in that. So let me know if this is off, but to me it seems like uh Swedenborg more says that only Jesus saves than a trinitarian view of persons does. And okay, so what does Jesus say about this? So this I got a couple of quotes here. I mean, we can tease apart. So, what how did we get to where we are? Yeah. And isn't part of the issue here that because Swedenborg says that other religions can still work, they they get you, you know, like you can be saved from other religions. Yes. Is that part of it to to question? Oh, well, so now Jesus is not the only savior because people who don't even know the name of Jesus are going to heaven, says Swedenborg. So, yes. And that is like that's a fair critique people might have if they what we don't want to do is present Swedenborg as something different and the worldview that he has and I don't want you to come and this channel's good and then be scared when you see like oh wait he says that you can go to heaven without being a Christian which he 100% does say that yes he 100% says that uh he has a whole section on uh Muslims in heaven and what the Muslim heaven is like and people he even talks about people from non-Christian religions around the world getting into heaven more easily than his own Christian people. That's right. Which is quite a shock to him to to see that. Yeah. However, simultaneously, Jesus is the only way to heaven. But I think the key to like how those two things square actually you can see it in the way Jesus talks about what salvation is. That the Christian idea that the only way to heaven is that you talk about Jesus Christ and get baptized or something. That's not necessarily the way Jesus actually described like that may be a derived I don't know if it's a heresy but it's it's a derived doctrine and if only we' done a show about like the name of Jesus we just did go back and check it out. Oh I forgot. Let me read you something from Matthew. This is this is Jesus talking about what it is to be saved. When the son of man comes in his glory and all the angels with him then he will sit on the throne of his glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will put the sheep at his right hand and the goats at his at the left. Then the king will say to those at his right hand, "Come, you that are blessed by my father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world." So it's very I'm going to pause there for a second because it's it is very much like oh yeah there's a there's some people are in some people are out and this was a very Christian worldview one of the primary uh markers on it like dink this is Christianity is that some people are in some people are out but but what is it that makes you in or out what is it that makes you in or out yeah and and important detail to me is that Swedenborg says that when he's talking about nations. When the Bible refers to nations, it actually means all these different religions, which is kind of implied anyway. You're talking about all the nations of back then it was like nations of the world. I mean, had an identity. In that earlier passage you read, it said Jesus the savior of the world. The the whole not just the little Christian piece of it, you know, the entire world. So he says, "Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world." Semicolon. Then it goes on, "For I was hungry and you gave me food. I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink. I was a stranger and you welcomed me. I was naked and you gave me clothing. I was sick and you took care of me. I was in prison and you visited me." Still a little cryptic. What do you mean by that? Then he goes on and says, "Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family, you did it to me." And that's and they seem quite surprised by that because wait a minute, it didn't say anything about in there about accept Jesus as your personal savior. So it's just treat people well, right? That whole list is just anybody who treats somebody well, others well, right? Isn't that Isn't that what that whole list of six different things? That's just about how you treat people. And that anyone who treats people well is treating Jesus well. Yes. So, they are going through he's not saying they don't have to know the name to be doing his work. Yeah. He's not saying there's there's another here's me and all the Christians and then yeah there's some other people being nice way over there. I don't really know about them. I'm not sure if he's just saying anybody who treats people well is treating me well. So I am the way there. Yeah. That's that seems like pretty black and white. Yeah. That that and it's really anchored also to salvation because at the end there it's saying like Doesn't the end of that parable say about eternal life or or something like that? You get to be part of his kingdom. Something like that. Just saying you got to listen like let's just like really listen to what Jesus is saying here. Yeah. Okay. Who knows? That's one passage. Let's go somewhere else. This is Luke 13 again when he's talking about it says this is how it starts. Someone asked him, "Lord, will only a few be saved?" Okay, there you go. Here we go. This is when he says the people that that accept me as their he said to them strive to enter through the narrow door for many I tell you will try to enter and will not be able able. When once the owner of the house has got up and shut the door and you begin to stand outside to knock at the door saying Lord open to us then in reply he will say to you I do not know where you came from. Again, the um Christianity is right about there's all this language about like you got to be in or out. We're not trying to say there's not that. Right? Then you will say, "We ate and drank with you and you taught in our streets." But he will say, "I do not know where you came from. Go away from me all you evildoers." Oh, there will be weeping and nashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God and you yourselves thrown out. Then people will come from east and west from north and south and will eat in the kingdom of God. Indeed, some are last who will be first and some who are first who will be last. Swedenborg when he when his spiritual eyes were open, he I think he was quite surprised himself uh to see what was going on and how things really work in the other world. And also he saw people who had exactly those beliefs going to the other world and literally seeing people just like that scripture says coming in from from here and there and they're all they're all getting like why are they go going to have you know that that person's Chinese like they have nothing to do with Christianity or something and Yeah. They're they're kind of shocked again. He's like, "Okay, you say you know me, but you're doing evil." Yes. And so there again, it's the doing, right? It's about the doing. And then there's all these people from east and west and north and south. All over. All over. That's the whole thing. I would say this is Jesus saying, uh, it's about how you live. Yeah. How you live is what affects your salvation. And this in a way the same same program applies to everybody, right? Like it's the same the the the thing that gets you saved is available to everybody all over the over the planet. So okay, then what about this in the book of Acts is Acts 10. Then Peter began to speak to them. I truly understand that God shows no partiality, but in every nation, anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him. Yeah. Yeah. There you go. Like what about that? Right. And and partly what Swedenborg says at some point in divine providence is that because Jesus was in a sense, this sounds very strange to say, but it was an upgrade to God in the sense that it added this new layer of this humanity, even right down to flesh and blood kind of humanity that wasn't there before. Right? We've done shows about that, right? Uh once that upgrade happened, everybody who accesses God is accessing Jesus. You you don't have to know the name, but that's how it works for everybody. He is the way. You know, he he's the way. And it's not just limited to people who, you know, it's important that there are people who who read the Bible and who know Jesus and read the New Testament and know his character and so on. That's that's very very important. But it's not like because of some accident of birth, you're born on the wrong side of the planet. So no chance for you, you know. That's quite a sound effect, man. Thank you. Um I just seems to me is that a sound that God would make? Yeah, I can't picture him doing that. I mean, he could if he wanted, but I It just seems to me very much like, yeah, sure, you've got right out of Jesus's mouth, then you've got the, you know, early disciples saying, um, everyone who does what's right. It it's so clearly about living a good life is what leads to acceptance. So, and that that is exactly what it just seems like Swedenborg when he's talking about what it is to go to heaven is very sticking very close to the source material. Yeah. Yeah. One more. That's a really important alignment because I think some people also feel from that kind of list that we're talking about like okay well he he's just another departure. He just read it and he said you know there are some people today who will say oh well the Bible's meaningless. is some Bronze Age document. You don't have to pay any attention to that, you know? Right. And so here goes Swedenborg. He's just riding off the rails somewhere. Yeah. And what's interesting with Swedenborg, though, is like people who think, okay, well, what's the Bible that's got to be edited or man-made or something, but maybe are interested in like the near-death experiences or the spiritual experiences. Swedenborg lines up with that stuff. So, I think he's like this knitting together or the this theory of everything where you get here's how the Bible does make sense. Here's how the doctrine from it does make sense. This is how spiritual experiences make sense. and the beings of light and all that and they this is where they converge. Yeah. And this is how it fits with with science with everyday experience with with all obviously we're biased. Why would we be doing this show if we didn't have like oh I like Swedenborg. So it should be a warning flash. That's a red flag is like obviously we we have like an affection for this material. However, hopefully you can just be listening to this and get your own get your own opinion from it and it gives us a fun opportunity to dig into these really important Yeah. Glad you raised that. You know, that's a very important question. Let let's be clear about that. One more uh passage on this before we go to the next heresy objection. Uh this is from Revelation, book of Revelation. After this, I looked and there was a great multitude that no one could count. From every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, robed in white, with palm branches in their hands, they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who is seated on the throne and to the Lamb." Reminds me of that Old Testament uh phrase that is one of my favorites of the the Lord's arm is not shortened that he cannot save. You know, it's not like, "Oh, I've got a Sorry, I can't quite reach you. You're on the other side of the planet." Tyrannosaurus Rex arm. I I guess before we go, we should probably address John 3:16, which is the most often quoted uh in in support of like, oh, so the through through him John 3:16. Yeah. If you stay in John 3 and just go down three verses from that, I think you'll see that believing, whoever believes in him, believing actually means living a good life. What is believing in him? Yes. So, this is Well, don't take it from me. Take it from John. This is John 19. John 3:19 to 21. Okay. It's not on the football game signs, but it's right there. Yep. Yep. And this is the judgment that the light has come into the world and people loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil. No offense. For all who do evil hate the light and do not come to the light so that their deeds may not be exposed. But those who do what is true come to the light that it may be clearly seen that their deeds have been done in God. Yeah. So just a few verses later. So John 3:16 talks about believing and then a few verses later it says if you're doing evil you you don't even want to be near that light. You don't want to come to the light. And so it's about do it's about the way you live your life. And that's why, as I've mentioned in previous shows, I'm so interested that the first words out of John the Baptist's mouth are uh repent and believe and the first words out of Jesus' mouth are repent and believe in that order. You know, clean up your life, then you'll start to be able to have enough faith to figure out what's going on here. I would argue that there's a heresy in Christianity, which is that they've they've overemphasized belief and completely negated uh the repent and do good. Whereas here seems to me pretty clearly in all sections of the Bible. Yeah. That we're saying the the important thing is to do what's good. And belief, sure, like it's in there, but it it doesn't supersede. If there's somebody who's doing what's good, they're following the way of Jesus. And that is Swedenborg front to back. And so, and I I do want to add that it's not like we had to sort of scrape through to find those one or two passages where Swedenborg talks about this, man. He is relentless. I He's always always talking about this one at one end to the other. So this could be a 165hour show to do just preliminary justice to to what he says about I know. Calm down everyone. We're not really a frightening thought. I know 165 hour show. But we actually we might someday do a tellathon. Okay. So maybe you don't have that objection to Swedenborg or that accusation that he's uh you know saying that Jesus isn't really the only savior. Yeah. Uh whereas it seems like his definition of how Jesus he believes Jesus is the only savior. Yeah. the human God is the one that that presides over everything and has the only power to save. and that I would argue his definition of what it means that Jesus is the only savior is more reflective of the actual text of the Bible than the concept uh the the doctrine that exists elsewhere in certain Christian sects that saying the name of Jesus doing some verbal assent to the idea that he you know he's your your savior and lord that that's the in or out that's the badge that gets you in or out of the club that doesn't have as much scriptural support as Swedenborg's Okay. But what about does does Jesus deny I mean does Swedenborg deny the divinity of Jesus? Does he does he say that I've I've heard people there you know even write books about that Swedenborg says Jesus was just like an enlightened teacher. He's not really God. Uh so is that a heresy? the uh that's is a historical like there have been people who have espoused that view the soinians said you know denied the divinity of Jesus and that was a very big big deal and and um but uh I was trying to think this morning whether the adjective divine has comparison can you say diver and divin I don't know if you can say that I'm going to allow this you'll allow it uh I think Swedenborg has the divine finest Jesus ever. I mean, it's amazing to think that people would encounter Swedenborg and think that he is teaching that Jesus is not divine because he's so there there is no other god. You know, as Isaiah says, there's no other god besides me. You know, like that that that is him. He said, it's puzzling if people would say Swedenborg doesn't really say that Jesus is divine. So, let let's hear it from his mouth, though. Uh this is from heaven and hell too early in a can. Yes. You just let's get this up front. Swedenborg's most popular book right in the beginning says the Lord is God of heaven. And remember he already defined this earlier in secrets of heaven. The Lord the Lord was Jesus. Jesus Christ. So it's the same thing as saying in his vernacular Jesus Christ is the God of heaven. First and foremost we need to know who the God of heaven is since everything else depends on this. Yeah. Throughout the whole of heaven, no one is acknowledged as God of heaven except the Lord except Jesus Christ. Yeah. Angels say what he himself taught, namely that he is one with the father and the father is in him and he is in the father. That anyone who sees him sees the father and that everything holy emanates from him. Now he's getting all scriptural on us again. He's just quoting John. Okay, go ahead. No, that's the end. He just quotes he quotes John in all those places and says look it's just like Jesus says everybody in heaven knows Jesus is the God of heaven. When I look at his like his manuscripts in that transitional period in his life he has a vision of Jesus and he sees him. I still think the thought is lingering in his mind early on that there's another God. the father is is is somewhere but he's completely enamored of the lord you know this this divine being who has appeared to him it takes him a while to figure out oh that that's the whole story that's the only like I was talking that's the only god that that is the the god there's not a there's not a separate father that that is just the father means the divine love that's embodied in in Jesus when you're talking to Jesus you're talking to the father That's as Jesus says. Well, then let's move on to our next heresy because the the next accusation level that at Swedenborg is that he denies the Trinity. Yes. And I can see where people are coming from in this. He does not deny the Trinity, but he does deny one specific point about the Trinity. Yes. Which is just the S on the end of the word persons. a trinity of persons. He doesn't believe that there's three separate gods. Um, father, son, and holy spirit. Yeah. And he cites that we're in the image and likeness of God and we're not three people. I'm not three three people. You know, that's right. You're one person. You have different inner self. That's right. It's well known. But well, okay. I think what you're getting at is what we're about to get at. So let me let me read this. This is from true Christianity. Swedenborg's book true Christianity which by the way when he was writing that that was around when the Gothberg trials were happening people were saying what you're doing is teaching Swedenborgianism which is this different departure from Christianity. And he in one of his letters was like people are saying this is Swedenborgianism. It's not. It's true Christianity. And so he put this book out that was called True Christianity. That's sort of planting the flag, right? That this is this is true Christianity. Yeah. So in true Christianity and this was this was not like he was not trying to be petty or pick a fight to him. This was uh very important that he he felt I think a heartbroken at the ways in which Christianity which he loved by the way his father father was a bishop in the Lutheran church. He he was a as far as I know would a churchgoing kind of Oh yeah. religious guy. Yeah. Oh yeah. And since childhood. Yeah. Absolutely. And yet he saw these there was these things that were very wrong with Christianity. It had fallen pretty far from the actual truth and it had done away with the love that Jesus actually is. And it was he was trying to help it. He was trying to nurse it back to health. So this is this was something that was personal to him and something that he thought was really important to correct. So this is from his book True Christianity 163. The Trinity is well known to the Christian world. Yet in other ways, it is unknown. Only through understanding the Trinity can we gain a just idea of God. And in the church, a just idea of God is like the sanctuary and the altar in a church building. Like central, you might say, you sort of figuring out who you're praying to or what's going on up there with God. Yeah, it's important. Important. Seems important. He would even say like it's it's not fatal to be wrong about it if you have a good heart, if you're treating people well. But, you know, to to be a decent religion, you should you probably figure that piece out. Yeah. Because there's plenty of people who across the world don't have any idea of a God in whom there is a trinity. And yet, if they live well and and treat other people rightly like like Jesus said you're supposed to, they can go to heaven. Uh, and some people if you're not in the Christian world and you're watching this show right now, you think, yeah, why why do we need to haggle over these definitions and stuff so much? What's going Well, there's different systems. There's like a Christian system for getting to heaven, which Swedenborg would say there's there are the most densely packed divine truths in Christianity. However, if you if those get corrupted and go wrong, it actually can be an impediment to you getting in. But also, all the other religions in the world were created by God through divine providence as means of leading people to heaven through those truths. So, in some sense, it doesn't matter because you go and live well by your religion. But when you're within the Christian bubble, yeah, there's certain ideas in there and and within any religion, there's certain ideas that could be harmful to salvation and certain ideas that are helpful to it. So, he's trying to reenter it on what's helpful to salvation. And what makes Jesus able to save people from all over the the the world and the the universe um is he definitely has a trinity. Like it's not true to say that he doesn't have a trinity because a terribly important idea to him. It's just the idea that the there was a divine love and sort of god as always existed forever. But then that soul was born into a human body here to accomplish certain work that had to be done here and to safely be able to interact with a pretty hellish world and and save people. And then after he was resurrected, then he's got an influence that goes out which is the Holy Spirit. Uh and so that three is very important because that's how Jesus is able to be absolutely directly. That's how God the invisible unknowable inaccessible God is able to be present with all of us intimately. You know, when you're when you're suffering and and lying awake and feeling bad at night or when you're sick or something that that's accessible to you wherever you are. So this this is how he lays out the the right way to understand the trinity. A simple topic so it shouldn't take long. Nothing to it. For us to see the nature of the divine trinity in full perspective, the explanation of the trinity needs to be divided into points as follows. One, there is a divine trinity which is the father, the son, and the holy spirit. Two, these three, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are three essential components of one God. They are one the way our soul, our body, and the things we do are one. Yes. Such a great analogy. No, I love that. Really great because before even Yeah. Oh, no, no, go ahead. How like how can you understand the trinity or something? But then looking it up in yourself and real, oh, I see that there are these different because before when you were saying, well, you know, God was born into this body and and I to me what you're saying because I'm so steeped in it. I'm like, that's great. But I was thinking, you know, your our viewers could well be like, this is angels dancing on the head of the pin. You just kind of construct this theology like way off in this corner away from normal life, right? However, when you suddenly say, "Oh, yeah. There's these three parts in God." Just like you have your soul, your body, and the things that you do, suddenly that theology is is written all over in everything in every human interaction that we've got. You know that as you grow older and your body starts to fall apart, you know the person's still in there, everybody gets that. And you know, when somebody's body dies, it's like, "No, they're still out there somewhere." and you know that there's a person but then there's their how they affect the world and that you say like oh this is this is um Thorough's legacy or this is this is my my this is how my grandfather used to or this is my my grandmother used to always make this for us and we all gathered around that whatever there's you know that there's what you do affects things that's how God is that's the it's the same it's just that on this giant scale that's the trinity is you've got the unknowable this is like who God is like the infinite you ever can discover it all. Okay. And then there's the like the body. This is Jesus Christ. The thing that's so cool about that is you can understand what it would be like to have Jesus sitting there right beside you. And you you want to ask him questions. You want to talk to him. You want to learn about life. Swedenborg even had an encounter where he's sitting in the lap. Yes. Of Jesus. That's right. Like a little kid, like a little baby and Jesus. So there's like a human being holding you. And then there's what how how God runs the world. There's the actions that he takes like, "Oh, God saved me from this. Oh, God did that and made that." Of course, that doesn't that doesn't seem obscure. That's just like a a logical rational labeling of this thing that's happening on this huge infinite scale that happens for each of us in our little lives. I mean, that's so great. So great. And I'm thinking about this just analogy for the third one. Your how your actions go out that sometimes it happens, doesn't it? where someone passes away, but you realize you still have a voicemail from them on your phone. And so, does that voicemail hold their spirit? Can you still feel them in hearing that, you know, or recording or a video or something like that? Absolutely. They're they're still in. So, there's a soul. Yeah, there's definitely a soul that inhabited that body. And then when the when the soul departs and the body's dead, nothing to write home about. It's like a stick of wood, you know, it's just like like this this thing lying there. Uh so there's two separate things there. But then the the voicemail is not any of those. It's something that came from that soul through that body into your voicemail. Yeah. It's still their spirit. It's their spirit. And that that's just a little picture. But no, that's my actually my grandmother left me a bunch of notes when when she died that she had been saving up for me. And when I open those things up, read them after she you can totally feel Oh, yeah. She's there. Her body's not there. Her soul is like around, but I can't access it. But here I am accessing the spirit. So So it is with God. So it is with God. Okay. Five. Oh, now we're skipping down to point number five. Okay. There's more. If you want to read the whole thing, you can. You can download that book for free. The apostolic church knew no trinity of persons. What's the apostolic church is the pre-consil of Nika, right? Christian. So the first 300 years of Christianity. Yeah. Early early Christianity. the closest to the actual time of Jesus knew no trinity of persons. That idea was hatched by the council of Nika. The council introduced the idea into the Roman Catholic Church and the Roman Catholic Church introduced the idea into the churches that have since separated from it. So 300 years of Christianity is longer than since Swedenborg died or what you know like it's a long time for Christianity to exist and was just exploding you know it just explosive growth going on in that time period and that concept wasn't wasn't part that isn't part of what caused that explosive growth. It just wasn't even part of that early view. That was a later and that was to deal with these other heresies that were saying, "Well, Jesus was nothing special. He's a nice guy. Very nice guy, you know, but but not divine, not God. Didn't have the same I know that it's kind of trendy right now to to talk about the Council of Nika as like it was this thing where they chose all the books of the Bible and it was this conspiracy." And uh we're not saying that. And I don't even necessarily think there was, you know, evil intent in the Council of Nika, even though Swedenborg really says that that's where a lot of the worst ideas in Christianity came out of. Yeah. They were trying at the time it went bump right. I mean, it's kind of when the church started to die according to Swedenborg there, but they were trying to, as you said, there was all these different ideas of what was going on with Jesus and God and how do those things fit together. They were trying to consolidate it, but they they just it was some guys. It was like 15 guys who were in high positions at the time and they through committee or something came up with an explanation for how to make sense of these things in the Bible. It was just their explanation. That's where the idea of the trinity of persons that there are three and even in the council it says there even what they put out from that says I'm paraphrasing this kind of doesn't make sense but God is hard to understand the three persons who are each god they I don't know what the exact wording is but they say this sort of doesn't really make sense we know but it's just hard to understand God because it is again it's this derived idea it was their best attempt to try to do this so to A Swedenborg is heresy because he departs from that. Well, then Jesus was heresy. Then all the early Christians, all the disciples were heresy. That was something that human beings invented around the year 300. And I think it had a very specifically at least a component was a political compon you know it was the it was the uh secular you know I mean it it was the the emperor or whoever who said hey we need to have this council and figure this thing out you know so it was a political overtly political moment and it's interesting that Swedenborg associates that with with going somewhat downhill. Yeah. Well, somewhat downhill. Tell me if this sounds like somewhat downhill. Okay. Yeah. The Nyian and Athanasian views of the Trinity led to a faith that has perverted the whole Christian church. Yeah. A little Yeah. Not as good as it used to be. Yeah. So, he Swedenborg is adamant that there is a Trinity and it's super important. He would say, "These people, Aanesians and the Nians, they came up with an idea that's not true." And I'm just saying this idea is more true. Yeah. And by the way, I do want the the viewers to to uh people listening to podcasts, what whatever form they're taking this in, uh if you're really interested in this stuff, do read Swedenborg's true Christianity. It's a really interesting read. He has a whole chapter on God the Father, whole chapter on the Son, whole chapter on the Holy Spirit. Goes really into it with heavy scriptures and and and just decide for yourself, you know, see see what you think. But but that's his kind of best clearest sort of he's also got a slender work called the Lord that just gets into the nature of of of Jesus which is also a very quick I think it's only you know like it's under 100 pages. It's just not that long. It's awesome. But but it's great to read that because we can't do full justice here. We can't do any justice here. Yeah. This is there's no justice here. This is for entertainment purposes only. This is for entertainment purposes only. And I will say you can believe in all you can believe in anything that came out of the Council of Nika or the Athanasian creed and still go to heaven. Absolutely. However, what that will do, the reason why he's saying that perverted the whole Christian church is that it makes it harder for you to know what God's actually like. The barrier to you really understanding the nature of your creator. And and part of it I think and maybe this is a horrible caricature that he does but you do encounter these things sometimes in Christianity where if you have the view that God the father is mad at the human race you know there's already a problem there he's furious wants to condemn us all because of the sin and then the thing that will have so the son says okay I'll I'll try to to deal with this I'll go in then I'll suffer you can see me bleeding you'll feel badly And then I can hide people behind myself so that we can sneak them in so they get salvation. You know, it was ridiculous caricature. But then so God the father sitting here on the throne and then the son is sitting on his right hand and then he sends out the holy spirit to to run around and go save people and then come back. It's just kind of an awful idea actually of God. Frankly, to to me it's just like I don't feel any love for what's going on up there. You know, it's stressful. It makes me stressed hearing you say that story. And so a lot of people will earnestly say, "Well, but that's the real story." I I heard a guy on a podcast like, "It's a tough pill to swallow." But the thing is like we made that pill up. Human beings made that up. M it I'm not saying there's no passages from scripture that you can point to and say look but there's a bunch of passages from scripture that do not support that yes it's it the whole thing is just one you at home who are considering this now just know that whole picture that you just laid out some people in history made that up just like Swedenborg is here saying it well actually this is another definition yeah it's not that that came out of the mouth of

God, yeah. It's not that that's some that particular story is filling in a lot of gaps. It's there's a selective reading and, um, it, it's got some real issues. It's got some real red, it's got its own red flags. Big waving red flags. Yes. And well embraced by millions of people, but still issues with that. Absolutely.

In John 14, it says, "I will not leave you orphaned. I am coming to you. In a little while, the world will no longer see me, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day, you will know that I am in my father and you in me and I in you." And when he says coming to you, that's the Holy Spirit, right? I mean, he says exactly the same thing of the Holy Spirit. Well, and check this out. John 20:22. When Jesus had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit." It's just him. It's his spirit. His spirit is, is the Holy Spirit. I think that's pretty, pretty plain there. It's one person. Yeah.

Hey, if you like this content, did you know that you could be getting more of it? Every episode after we're done filming, the guest and I hang out for a candid discussion about everything we didn't talk about in the video. All you got to do to access it is click that join button, become a member, support the channel, and you get some of the coolest insights that have kind of bubbled up throughout the episode that we didn't have a spot for, uh, as a, as a thank you. So, click the join button, become a member, and see what you've been missing. Great.

The, the fourth claim of heresy levied against Emanuel Swedenborg is that he denies the authority of the Bible. I would say he definitely gives a new, fresh take on the Bible, but he would say more that there's, there are deeper layers of meaning in the Bible that usually people miss. Yes. And that the, um, the Bible has tremendous, uh, authority in his view, but partly where the holiness comes from is, is different, or how he interprets it. So I see if somebody just really believes in, okay, it's the literal meaning. It says what it means. It means what it says and, and, uh, you got to go with that, the, the plain teachings and all that. Uh, that, yes, he, he would rub you, the, the wrong way because he's saying, well, this, you know, woman doesn't mean woman, man doesn't mean man. You know, I, I think you could have a complaint against Swedenborg that that he's, um, introducing, you could say he's introducing new meaning to the Bible. I don't think you could say he denies the authority of the Bible. No, because to him, again, just like Jesus is more central to reality in his worldview than any other. I think the, the Bible is more central in his worldview than in any other worldview. I think any Christian theologian, Swedenborg is quoting the Bible more. He, he goes so far as to say that God is the Bible. He says that in heaven they still read the Bible. Yep. It, it's, but he does say that there's layers and he just, right out the gate says, look, there are layers of hidden symbolic meaning in every part of the Bible, and that's where that's why it is divine. And I've even had the thought that he does say at certain times that a big part of his project was to save specifically the book of Revelation, like the book of Revelation was kind of on the chopping block. Luther wanted to get rid of it. Yep. U and, and, uh, to push it to the back of the book, kind of thing. And, and, uh, so, and, and if he didn't think it had authority, could someone please explain to me why he quotes it like millions of times, you know? But he is so fanatical about his quoting of scripture. It's just amazing. So, is the idea he doesn't act like someone who thinks there's nothing to, don't worry about the, oh, you don't have to, you can dispense with the Bible, don't worry about it. So, but, is the idea that there is a spiritual meaning inside the literal meaning of the Bible, is that a heretical idea? So that's what we want to look at. Okay, good. So, good. Yeah.

Where would that foreign notion come from? In John 16, this is Jesus talking. He says, "These things I have spoken to you in figurative language, but the time is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figurative language, but I will tell you plainly about the Father." Now, Swedenborg took that to the, the, the Bible, the teachings of Jesus. You can see that there's parables all over the place. He quotes scriptures that don't seem to be exactly about him, but says that they are. Swedenborg would say that that's, that's the figure. The whole Bible is that figurative language. The plain speaking that he is talking about is the spiritual meaning of the Bible, where it does tell you clearly about who God is and what he's like and everything. That's right. And there's a number of little indicators in the literal sense of scripture that there's more to it than meets the eye. I mean, that's, that's said in repeated different ways. Yes.

So here's what Swedenborg says about it. He has a book called Sacred Scripture. Yes. Another little short one, but that's all about the nature of the Bible. Yeah. What it is. And he says that's great. And this, this is him really paying homage to the literal sense that even though he says there's other senses inside it, he doesn't say there's nothing that the literal sense is worthless or can be cast aside. Oh, he, he is not tossing it up. "Divine truth in all its fullness, holiness and power is present in the literal meaning of the word. The reason is that the two prior or deeper meanings that are called spiritual and heavenly, and these are the the inner sense that people criticize Swedenborg for, are together in the earthly meaning, which is the literal meaning." And he says it comes right down to the, in, in some of the Hebrew scriptures, it comes down to the individual letters, you know, why it's a hey or h sound that's added to the name of Abraham or Sarai to become Sarah, and you know what the meaning of that one letter is, you know. And he cites, I can't count how many times he says that thing about "not one jot or tittle of the law will pass until, yes, all is fulfilled." You know, that's one of his favorite, favorite scriptures. He goes on, "What is heavenly, what is spiritual, and what is earthly emanate from the Lord sequentially and they exist on the last level in a simultaneous arrangement." There's a whole, Swedenborg's very big on these simultaneous sequential degrees. Yes. Says they occur everywhere in nature. It's just like it's in our body, our mind and body. And so you got, you got layers of skin. Yeah. They go, you got, you got there's, there's layers to the earth's mantle. Like there's layers in the atmosphere. Everything has these layers in it. So it is with spiritual things as well. He talks about how you have, um, like a really good rope is really three set, you know, you, you had threads that were wound around each other and then those were sort of braided together and then those were braided together to make this mighty, like the kind of ropes you have on ships for holding the anchor and all that. All made by the same God that made the Bible. And so you have the same kind of multi-layered, there's deeper things within. He talks a lot about like fruit and how there's these layers. There's the skin of the fruit, there's the flesh of the fruit, then there's the seeds in the middle, right? So, it is with, there's the literal sense of the Bible, there's a spiritual sense of the Bible, and then there's the heavenly sense within it. Yeah. "This means that now the heavenly and spiritual meanings of the word are together within its earthly meaning. Once this is grasped, we can see how the earthly meaning of the word, which is its literal meaning, is the foundation, container, and support of its spiritual and heavenly meanings. And how divine goodness and divine truth are present in their fullness, holiness, and power in the literal meaning of the word."

It's a strange story that he has at one point, but he says that the scripture is so powerful in the spiritual world that it, you can see the light just shining out of it for like miles around. He asked somebody, what, what's that huge light, you know, and, and it's because there's scripture there. And apparently there's some place where they take people who believe that their understanding of scripture is accurate. Oh, no, no. I've, I've, I've got this all straight. And apparently then this guy who was a preacher who believes he's really, he really really knows his scripture well, touches just the paper at the edge of the Bible and there's an explosion and he's thrown into the corner and lies unconscious for half an hour while the angels seemingly callously carry on a conversation about the nature of scripture and then eventually sort of comes to and they said, "It's a good thing you didn't touch the writing." Yeah. So there's power. Yeah. It's a great divine, like the highest pinnacle of technology that exists. Like there's the word. There's a reason why we're sitting here trying to untangle with this book. It's like this ultimate tool that we can't be really comprehend. It's there. It's complicated, but it's definitely like no one's dis, he's not dismissing it. No. And he seemed to love and dig into the weirdest, strangest little things that nobody, you know, when people talk about scripture, I think they're thinking about sort of the top 10 stories or certain things that they love in there. But I've never seen anybody who loved the whole thing the way that he does. That's true. That to him, he, he would spend chapters and chapters talking about obscure stuff in the book of Exodus. Yeah. Just go on all day. Or the, what, what do Joseph's brothers all mean? And why is there silver in the sacks of grain that they take? And how does all that apply right now to you and to the human mind and tell you about the nature of God and the nature of Jesus? Yeah. You, of course, you can say, well, that he's just making up meaning that isn't there or something. Sure, you can't, you can't prove that, but you can't say that he doesn't have deep reverence for the book and all the stories that are in it. And he really says that this was his conduit. Yes. He had a vision of Jesus, as you talked about earlier. Yeah. But the reading the Bible is really how he, he learned these things. He got these things from the Bible itself, from the Lord while he's reading the Bible. That's, he's, he's adamant about that point. That was his conduit and his his connection. He goes on, "We can tell from this that in its literal meaning, the word is really the word. There is spirit and life within. The spiritual meaning is its spirit and the heavenly meaning is its life. This is what the Lord said, 'The words that I speak to you are spirit and are life.'" Oh, that's what that means. The Lord said his words to the world and said them in their earthly meaning. Apart from the earthly meaning, which is the literal meaning, the spiritual and heavenly meanings are not the word. Without it, they are like a spirit and life without a body and like a palace that has no foundation to rest on. Yes. Yeah. He, he was a champion of that literal meaning. He got to know it pretty well, and I think that was a big, big part of his. People are very interested in his spiritual experiences. That's where I sort of really got into all this was, oh, what was happening? What did he see? You know, all that cool stuff. Yeah. But after a while, you hang around, you realize really for him, it's all about that those experiences were useful because they taught him about the meaning of the Bible. That, that's the, that's where the real good stuff is.

Okay, fifth heresy. There, there's people are saying Swedenborg denies, kind of catch-all, like all the other essentials of Christianity. Like, you just don't, he doesn't emphasize the things that you need to emphasize. So, I mean, you have to have an opinion if you're going to say, what are the essentials of, of Christianity? Yes, that's right. I would say if you look, that's something you could debate about, couldn't you? But if you look at the Bible, probably repentance has got to be an essential of Christianity. Um, for example, in Matthew 4, it says, right after Jesus, I think gets, this is right after he gets baptized. It says, "From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, 'Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.'" What, what does repent mean? That's not really a word you hear anywhere except in religion. What does it, what does it mean? That's true. You don't hear it much. Swedenborg has a somewhat different meaning. I, I think to some people, it means you should look back on your life and, and regret. You know, it has, it has a root, the pent is like the French, "pense," sort of think again. So like, okay, think, rethink your, your situation. Yeah. Um, but to Swedenborg, it's really, no, you do that self-examination, but then the most important part is that you pray and you don't, you pray for strength, uh, you stop living that way, you know, like change the, change your behavior. You, you mentioned before in this episode, Jesus is talking about repentance a lot. John the Baptist talks about repentance. That's right. Uh, in the, in the epistles, I mean, there's a lot of epistles that are basically given moral instructions. Yes. Don't, hey, don't do this stuff. This stuff is bad. Yeah. Jesus wouldn't, long lists of evils to, to be avoided. Absolutely. That's even goes back into the Old Testament. There's a lot of that, like don't, don't do this. The Ten Commandments, probably the most famous, yeah, instance of that. But even that, like the Sermon on the Mount, there's a lot of really comforting, you know, don't, don't worry, I'm taking care of you sort of stuff. But then there's a bunch of like, don't do this, like, don't, don't, don't judge this person. Don't, don't be mean to this person. Yeah. Don't love your enemies. Yeah. That's right. Pray for those. And so all that. That's right. And even at the very end, after Jesus is, is, uh, resurrected in Luke and, and, uh, for sure, he, he, he sends them out to preach a message of repentance. Like, there's kind of the short story of their marching orders is, tell everybody about repentance. That, that's essential part of the message. Well, be the essential, what is the essential of religion? What if religion is like God telling us, like, sort of what we should do? What, what's the main message if you had to boil it down? What's your one sentence is like, um, be, be good. "Be good." My father used to say that all the time. "Be good." That was his main message. That's right. Which of course, you don't like want somebody telling you to be good, but if you just think about it in the abstract, oh yeah. You want to, you want everyone to be good. That's kind of what it boils down to. Yeah. If you want heaven on earth, yeah, people need to be good. Well, when you are, when you have to call someone because your furnace isn't working, you want them to be good. Meaning, you, you want them to not trick you and say you need a much more expensive thing than you really need. You want them to do a good job and tell you if something is, they did something wrong and own up to it. You just want them to be good. You want them to show up approximately when they said they would be there and not leave your house a big mess. What? Yeah. There's certain characteristics that you're looking for. Yeah. So, in, in practice, you want everyone to be good. And that's, that's what the religion thing is, is you don't want them to be horrible at their job. Yeah. Or if, if your, if your kid is going, you know, is going to meet someone and marry them, you want that person to be good. Yeah. Yeah, you want everyone to be good. So that's, that's what the essential is. That's why the repentance thing.

Here's a couple things that Swedenborg says about repentance. "This essential of the Christian church is from his book, New Jerusalem. If we want to be saved, we must confess our sins and repent." Okay, that's essential of salv. Yeah, that's about as essential as it gets. Going forward. New Jerusalem 160. "Confessing sins is to recognize things that are evil, see them within ourselves, acknowledge them, accept that we are at fault, and condemn ourselves because of them. When this is done in the presence of God, it is confessing our sins." Man, you know what that sounds like? The 12 steps. It does, doesn't it? That's right. And it's interesting that there are some, some forms of Christianity where you go to their website and it, it doesn't mention anything about repentance. It's all that, you know, you're highly favored. You're, you're, you're great the way you are and, and not that call to repentance. It's interesting. But if you have, so that can sound, that sounds like kind of religious and scary and you got to condemn ourselves and like, but if you, if you have somebody like your in-law, somebody-in-law is making it hard to live, you absolutely 100% you want them to notice. Oh, you want them to stop and look at what's their behavior. Yes. That and what are they doing? Take, take a little inventory of how they're affecting things. You want them to notice the things that you feel like are disrupting the everyone's life, right? You want them to see that. You want them to say, "I, I shouldn't do that." And you want them to stop doing it. Of course, you do. It strikes me when you say that how much it doesn't work to, uh, have somebody outside yourself. You know, I, I've had concerned friends come to me and sit me down and say, "I'm a little worried about, you know." Well, you almost have to sort of brush that off, don't you? Just sort of look, it's my life, you know, don't tell me what to do. It, it, it does have to come into the, the only way it's going to be really effective is to come within yourself to realize, oh, I've got to get on top of this thing. This is, this is no good. Yeah. That's exactly. When I, I give the example of the in-laws because it's easy for us to see that in other people and probably when we're seeing that, we're not really noticing our own side of the street that we got to take care of because you generally excuse, well, there was a reason that, I mean, that's, I'm being reasonable. I'm under a lot of pressure. Anybody in my situation would, you of course. Um, but, but I'm just trying to isolate and say that self-examination, we acknowledge it's a good thing. Yes. You want that to happen. Yeah. You want people to to get better and, and really, like you're saying, the place where the real work is is when you can look at yourself honestly and just try to figure out how can I bring more of heaven into the world, bring a little less of hell into the world. That's great. That's great. That's, that's all the repentance thing is. It's great. And just think about, sure, maybe it's not that at times it's like a little bit of, ah, I don't want to have to do this. If everybody in the world was doing it, that's pretty good. Everyone would love that. Yeah. And it's, it's the whole topic area is hard to get into, isn't it? Because you get into sense of judgment and sin and, and all these things that have been so freighted with, you know, to some people, it's just that's, that's where they live and that's what religion is. And then there's other people who are so turned off by that, you know, like you're not helping me by judging me or, you know, ostracizing me or something like that. Like that's the main problem. So, uh, again, but notice that in this, he ain't saying it's for someone else to do for you. It isn't even even supposed to be like your, the priest at the church does that. It's just like when you do it, this is your, your thing on your own terms with God, uh, at your own pace. You know, he says, "This is what it means to take up your cross." That Jesus says everybody, not just him, but like, if you want to follow me, which is optional, it's totally optional. Don't have to do it, but if you want to follow me, take up your, your cross daily. Yeah. Like this is the way to happiness. Yeah. Heaven is ironically the same thing. Doesn't sound like it, but it, but it is. It's good. The only reason why God wants anybody to repent, which means to get, uh, evil and falsity out of them, is because that's the stuff that makes it so we're not happy. Yeah. Cuz the intent, the divine intent is the heaven from the human race. That's the end of providence, or the purpose of providence, is heaven from the human race. The only reason why God wants to do anything is for us to be happy, which is easy to, uh, believe and understand when you understand the nature of love. When you love somebody, what is it that you want? You want them to be happy. Yeah. You, if you love your kid, you want their life to go well. You know, if you want your, if you love your spouse, you, you want them to have, you try to make them have a happy life, right? That, the more you love your friend, you try to do that. That's, that's what love is. Love is the desire for someone to be happy. That's, that's what it is. So where does that love come from? Swedenborg and others would say that that comes from God. Yeah. That's what, that's who God is, is love itself. So what does then want? It wants everybody to be happy because that's what love wants. So all the stuff that God would tell us to do, all the, the commands and instructions that issue forth are in service of the goal of love, which is for us to be happy. Yeah. To, to remove something that's actually not an intrinsic part of you that's getting in your way or making you miserable. Yeah. You'd, you'd love to see somebody be, be free of that. My physical therapist told me I have to do like 25 squats. I hate squats. Why are they mean person? It's terrible. But it's because I, you know why? Because I want you to, your knee to work again, right? And then you're going to be so happy because then you can walk around and do all these things. Uh, New New Jerusalem 161. "After we've confessed our sins in this way and have prayed for forgiveness with a humble heart, repenting is to stop doing them and lead a new life that follows the principles of caring and faith." Yeah. So that sounds like the heart of it is the, the new life. Okay.

So, there's a Christian essential, repentance. I, I think, you know, Swedenborg is like saying, "Yeah, man. Do repentance." That's, he's big on repent. Has a whole chapter on it in True Christianity. What about, um, being born again? It's important to be born again, right? "I was born. I'm a born-again Christian." People will say that. So, does Swedenborg support the idea of being born again? Swedenborg says everybody's fine the way they are.

This is from John 3. Jesus replied, "Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again." Oh. Oh, snap. We got to get born again. "How can someone be born when they are old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother's womb to be born?" That right there is an example of the literal meaning of scripture, even of Jesus's words. Yes. That's Nicodemus right there being like, "You can't mean that literally." Right. He's like, "You don't." And Jesus being a little surprised that Nicodemus even gets tangled up. "What do you think we're talking about here?" Then Jesus answered, "Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit." Again, that's not literal. Yeah. And, and he goes, he goes on to, but nobody, Nicodemus isn't like, "Okay, so you don't enter your mother's womb again, but you go into some water and then that, even if, even if some people take this to mean you got to be baptized." Yes, that's right. He doesn't even say be baptized. He says be born of water and the Spirit. Even that's not literal. And if you take water as a physical thing, spirit is a spiritual thing. Those are not even the same kind of, to say an and between those two things. A bit strange. He, Jesus goes on, "Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit." What are you talking about? This is a great teaching, isn't it? It's just great. And a little bit later, he says to Nicodemus, "So you're a teacher of Israel, and you don't know these things?" Like, what, what are you teaching people if you're not talking about this? Because this is the most basic thing is how people change, how they develop, how they become angelic.

This is a little bit of how Swedenborg describes the process of being born again. This mystical thing that Jesus is talking about in these, the rebirth. Yes. Right. Sometimes in Titus it speaks of the washing of regeneration. That term is also used. This is from Swedenborg's book, Divine Providence. "The reason no one can enter heaven without being born again is that we are involved in all kinds of evil through what we inherit from our parents. We also inherit an ability to become spiritual by the removal of those evils." So you got, you have a predisposition to doing evil things. But you can also, you can buck that. Interesting too that he explicitly says there that you become spiritual when you, you know, if you remove that stuff, boom, the next place is is spiritual. That's what happens. "Unless we become spiritual, we cannot enter heaven. And changing from being earthly to being spiritual is being reborn or regenerated." Ah, so becoming spiritual equals, that's what that rebirth is.

"Our first state, the state of damnation, is the one we get from our parents by heredity." Meaning, oh, thanks, Mom. Ah, come on, man. Everybody starts out with, and he'll say what that is. "Each of us is born with a predilection to love ourselves and the world and subject to all kinds of evil that these forms that have these forms of love as their wellspring. It is the pleasures of these loves that guide us and they render us unaware of our involvement in evils. This is because every pleasure that stems from love simply feels good to us. Unless we are regenerated, then all we know is that loving ourselves in the world more than anything else is goodness itself. And dominating others and possessing all their wealth is the greatest good there is." When you're, when you're a kid, when you're growing up, you're like, "Well, there's all kinds of things that are fun." It is. Sure, it can be fun to play and share. It's also fun to tease and steal things. They're both fun. Everything's fun. Yeah, it's fun. It's, if you're a teacher of young kids, sometimes they're being really nice and loving to each other. Other times they smack each other in the face. They, they can't really tell the difference. And they just go with it. And that's where you start. And so it is. That's right. So it is. However, you slowly come to realize, oh, some of this stuff that I, that really appeals to me is great and good and, and we should be encouraged. Some of the stuff that appeals to me is not good. And that's what that's just what parenting is. You're trying to, you're trying to weed things out like, oh, this, this behavior, you don't always get it right, but like this behavior, you want to encourage and reinforce. This behavior, yikes, we got to stop that because we don't want that to go farther. Yeah. And, and, and when you're on the receiving end of it, you realize, oh yeah, no, when somebody already had 20 toys and then they took my toy, too. So I have no toys and they have 21 toys. Doesn't feel good. Yeah. It doesn't feel golden rule.

"Our second state, the state of reformation, starts when we begin to think about heaven in terms of its joy and therefore to think about God as the one who gives us heavenly joy. At first, our thinking is prompted by the pleasure we find in self-love. And heavenly joy is that kind of pleasure for us. As long as the pleasure from that love and the pleasure we find in the evils that arise from it are in control, though we can only think that we get to heaven by pouring out prayers, listening to sermons, taking communion, giving to the poor, and helping the needy, contributing to churches, supporting hospices, and the like. In this state, all we know is that salvation comes by thinking about what our religion teaches us." Thinking. Okay. Pure thought. That's interesting. Yeah. That's not, but that's not quite it. It's something. It's a next state, like, Yep. Developmental state.

"Our third state, the state of regeneration, picks up on this prior state and carries the process further. It begins when we stop doing wrong things because they are sins. Advances as we abstain from them and becomes complete as we fight against them. Then, as we overcome in the Lord's strength, we are regenerated. When we are regenerated, the whole pattern of our life is inverted. We become spiritual instead of earthly. Since what is earthly is contrary to the divine design when it is separated from what is spiritual, and what is spiritual is in keeping with the divine design. The result is that when we have been regenerated, we act out of thoughtfulness and make the elements of that thoughtfulness part of our faith." There's again the, the theme of integration of how you live and what you have in your heart in regard to other people. We talked before in the show about it's not so great to despise others in comparison with yourself and even though that's tremendously fun too, but you, you kind of just default to that. I mean, you don't think of it as despising, but you just don't care. Like, ah, this misfortune happened to them. Who cares? Where if it happened to me, oh, oh, it's the worst tragedy. Uh, but you got to get past that. That's just part of growing up and being a human being. All right.

And the, I'd say the last essential of the Christian church has got to be following the commandments, taking up the cross. Then, yeah. Well, uh, you know, like that's got to be a part of it. Jesus says to do those things. And is, is Swedenborg do that or not?

This is from Matthew 7:21. Uh, and this is Jesus talking again. "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." I, I would say again that that's leaning toward the less about the verbal or intellectual acknowledgment of Jesus, but it's about doing what's good. You're supposed to do what's good. And, and Swedenborg's reading, his heretical reading of scripture is that Father means love. You know, doing the will of the Father, the divine love itself, is is being an embodiment of love in other people's lives. Like, isn't that so great? Uh, just the idea when you talk about the, the Father, the divine being love, it like changes everything because you could, even in this discussion we're having, we're talking about this religion and what's right and what's wrong in that, and people get very caught up in the battles about theology and then, and then the, like, are people who are not religious versus people who are religious, and what's the whole thing? The whole, like, religion, kind of spiritual thing can be very prickly and like, you're just here to like judge and attack and destroy. But if you think like the, the engine, the nuclear force behind everything, behind all of that, is divine love, is is just love trying to get us into a pattern of life that will do what love would do. I don't know, man. That feels good. It does feel good. That feels good. So if you think about that as God as love, and it could change even this next thing we read, which is, "If you love me, keep my commandments." Uh-huh. Jesus says that in John. So it's like, what's the commandments of love, right? Okay.

So this is, this is then Swedenborg's True Christianity where he talks about the importance of living that life. "Good will and faith do nothing for us when they are attached only to one part of our body, meaning our head, but are not anchored in actions." Ah, so you just like know about it, like if, so you're walking around thinking about being a nice person. Let's say you did a podcast or you talked about theoretically, I'll accept the premise for, for far too long, but if you don't go out and then act on it in your life, then, then what does it say? It doesn't really do anything for you. Like if you're a horrible person off camera or something. It doesn't really, like that. It's, you got to know it. You got to learn it. But it only comes into being through actions. This is clear from a thousand passages in the word. There you go. "Good will and faith are not goodwill and faith before they exist in actions. If they exist only up in the sky or in the mind above actions, they are like images of a tabernacle or church in the air that are just strange aerial phenomena that spontaneously disappear. Goodwill and faith are transient entities when they are merely mental unless, when there is an opportunity for us to do them, they culminate in actions and become embodied in them." H and I, I like that too, that because you can, I was just in this, like chat group with some of the members at the Swedenborg Foundation and they, somebody was saying like, oh yeah, like I, I want to try to put these ideas into action, but I don't always like have the opportunity. Like, you, you can't just sit there like, "All right, I'm going to live by all this stuff." Yeah. I like what he's saying. 10 o'clock on Sunday night. Yeah. What are you going to do? That when there's an opportunity for us to do them, then they culminate in action. So when there is an opportunity to do something that's fair, when there's an opportunity to do something that is kind, when there's an opportunity to not do something that is not kind, when that comes up, when that, when life plops that in my lap, then, and not even saying 100% of the time, but some of the time, some of the time I actually take that action, then that's, then that's like, that's it. You did it.

From Mark. Now, as Jesus was going out on the road, this is, this is again about the commandments and how central it is. One came running, knelt before him and asked him, "Good teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?" That's a question that we're talking, I would add. That's a good one. So Jesus said to him, "You know the commandments. Do not commit adultery. Do not murder. Do not steal. Do not bear false witness. Do not defraud. Now wait a second. I thought, honor your father and your mother." I thought Jesus was supposed to be like this whole new thing overthrowing the Old Testament. Isn't that sort of Old Testament? The Ten Commandments. Here he is just reaffirming those commandments. When someone says, "How do I get to heaven?" He says, "Do these things." It's the Ten Commandments. He doesn't say, "Confess me as your Lord and Savior." No. Isn't that the essential? Yeah. Why does he say instead, which is easier, like to one time confess Jesus as your Lord and Savior, or to, for your whole life, don't murder people, stop doing, don't murder hateful things, don't steal, don't commit adultery, don't. And those things, you can see why love would command you to do those things because you don't want to, like doing that's not good. It doesn't make anyone, it makes people very unhappy, makes people very miserable when you, that is your, you're in hell when you're doing, when you're treating other people that way, you're in hell. So then he goes on and he answered and said to him, "Teacher, all these things I have kept from my youth." And Jesus looking at him, loved him, and said to him, "One thing you lack. Go your way, sell whatever you have, and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven, and come, take up the cross and follow me." M which, by the way, very scant few Christians take this literally. That's true. You don't see many people walking around with physical. Some monks, some monks sell everything, but most every Christian who's ever lived since that time is like, "You must mean that figuratively, because if I sell everything I have, how do I take care of my family? You know, how do I live a, how do I not start, I can't, I can't follow that teach." Even even monks who, who give up everything they have, unless they're like, so in some self-sufficient farming enclave, but even then, you haven't given up your land and your farm. You can't do that. Somebody in society's got to have stuff so they can make the food. So what does he mean by that?

This is what Swedenborg says. It says that Jesus loved him. And this was because he had kept the commandments since his youth. There you go. But he lacked these three, three things though. He had not detached his heart from wealth. Oh, this is talking about something deeper than just having wealth. Had not detached his heart from wealth, that he was to take up the cross, meaning he was to fight against his cravings, and that he was to follow him, meaning that he was to acknowledge the Lord as God. The Lord said these things the way he said everything else, in correspondences. Yes. In other words, in parables. Parables. The fact is that we, and this means everyone, cannot turn our backs on evils because they are sins, and unless we acknowledge the Lord, turn to him, and unless we fight against evils and in this way distance ourselves from our cravings. So that's what you got to do. That's what Jesus says you got to do. Swedenborg is just giving you more detailed information on this is, this is how you would do that from his standpoint.

The, uh, aspects of there are some, there are some people who would certainly feel that they're, they're at the center of Christianity who believe that the Ten Commandments are done away with because of Jesus. You don't have to do that anymore. That was the whole point. He came into the world. He took that on. So you don't have to. Jesus died for that. You, you don't have to follow that rule anymore. That's part of the thing that was undone. Very hard to make that case when you actually look at Jesus telling somebody that. And by the way, uh, I, if, if you know, you got some eager, studious viewers of this show, I, if you're really interested in this question, go through Paul's epistles and ask yourself, is this somebody who thinks that you should live by the Ten Commandments or somebody who thinks you shouldn't live by the Ten Commandments? Because the Ten Commandments show up a lot in Paul. Yeah. You know, he, to me, he does not read as somebody who said, "You don't have, don't worry about the Ten Commandments. You don't have to go ahead and kill people." You know? No, he's not saying, why wouldn't you want to live by the Ten Commandments? You want everyone else to live by the Ten Commandments because you don't want them to murder you. And some of the Ten Commandments are a little confusing, like, what does honor your father and mother mean? What if your parents are bad? Bearing false witness. Bearing, and don't, don't covet your neighbor's wife. Well, like, does it apply to husbands and, like, what? So, I get it. There's some stuff to sort out because I would, Swedenborg would argue that's written in correspondences as well. That's right. But like, in general, why would you ever not want to make religion about this is a tool to help us live a good life? These are divine tools to get it so you can can be good. It's just so obvious that the most basic rules we go and we live every day and we got these actions that we do that affect the people around us with the world you're living in is the sum total of everybody's actions. Yeah. So why wouldn't, of course, what we want to try to do is have better actions and have less of the harmful actions because that, the more you act good, the less people suffer. Yes. That's right. That's what, why would you ever want to take religion away from being the tool to bring about a world in which there's less suffering? That's like, that's what love would want. If you love an individual, when you love your kid, you don't want them to suffer. You want them to not experience as little suffering as they can. That's right. Experience as much joy as they can, have the opportunities they can, fulfillment. Yeah. Right. Of course you want that. Love all those things. You want, you want that for, of course, that's what we want to be doing. So, like, that's, that's great. You don't want to circumvent the commandments. You love the commandments. They're great. Yeah. And thinking that there would just be some divine intervention apart from people straightening out their lives. Uh, we're kind of it down here, like, like the human interactions. That's, it's as good as people sometimes say, well, why does God make the this so bad, you know, why, why does God make war or, or, or let that happen or said, "Well, that's kind of us. Like, we, we did that, you know, and God's there for people while they're going through it or whatever." But, but if the humans cleaned up their act, it would be a better, it would be a better world. Well, let's do that. Let's do that. I like that better.

In conclusion, what about, let's end this discussion by talking about this famous saying that Jesus has that he is the way, the truth, and the life. How are we to understand what that means? Like, we're okay if, if Jesus is God and God's trying to tell us and God is love. So love is trying to tell us the master plan of how we should be. We're trying to figure out what that means and how do you do it? So that's, that's why we'd care. What does it mean? What do you mean the way, the truth, and the life? What does that mean?

So, this is where it comes from. John 14. Thomas said to him, "Lord, we do not know where you're going. How can we know the way?" Yeah. What? What am I supposed to do? This is why people are cruising YouTube and everyone like, "What? What? How do you be good? What am I supposed to do?" Yeah. Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father, divine love, except through me. If you know me, you will know my Father also. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." So, if like, we just like, I heard you utter truth in the middle of that. Nobody comes to love except through the truth. So that, what are all these ideas and concepts and marching orders that we get? It is the way that you get to that love. You can't just turn it on like a light switch. It's something that needs to be pursued. How do you pursue it? That's awesome, man. I never, like, I never really saw it that clearly until, that's pretty good. I don't mind that.

This is from Secrets of Heaven. "People generally believe that the Father sent his Son to suffer cruel hardships, including even death on the cross, and that when he observed the Son's suffering and worthiness, he therefore took pity on the human race. Anyone can see, however, that Jehovah did not become merciful as a result of observing his Son, because he is mercy."

Itself. The secret to the Lord's coming into the world is that in himself he was to unite divinity with humanity and humanity with divinity, which could be accomplished only through the heaviest of trials. So as a result of this union, salvation would be able to come within the grasp of the human race, which no longer possessed any trace of heavenly, spiritual, or even earthly goodness. The union of the Lord's divinity and humanity is what saves people endowed with the faith that comes of love for others. It is the Lord himself who is merciful.

Wow, that really seems like it sums up so nicely everything we've been talking about because you've got a sense of the Trinity in there and why the Trinity is important and who Jesus is in that picture and how the divine is love and not anger or rejection of the human race and and it's it's scriptural. It's essential. You kind of got all of that.

Swedenborg would would be the first to say don't take my word for it. He never as far as I can see in his works ever says you have to believe that. He never says that, right? He says I became convinced by these things that I experienced in the spiritual world and by these scriptures and so on, you know, so he reports that he had that experience but he never says you have to believe this, stop thinking that you've got to think this. He invites people to say, "Look at this for yourself." I've raised some some questions here. What do you think? What do you think? It's important for people to to look at this. There's such important questions that were raised in this show like what is the nature of Jesus? You know, what's the nature of salvation? What's the nature of scripture? What role does it play? What's essential in Christianity? And decide for yourself where where Swedenborg fits in with that.

Yeah. You're only going to have ultimately it's it's in in you that think something will either be believable or not believable and you either take it to heart or not. Uh you can be sort of urged by and pressured by people to sort of think of things a certain way. They can threaten you. They can try to convince you. But in the end like there's a difference between something you really believe and really love and something that you're kind of just hedging your bets on. Uh that that last thing that we read where it's basically saying, "Yeah, Jesus saves. Jesus does save, but it's not that Jesus saves you from God." Right. Right. It's not that Jesus saves you from the enemy. You don't have a God problem. Jesus saves us saves everybody from the corrosive, destructive effects of evil.

Yeah, that's cool. I mean, that's a very heroic thing. Like I'm gonna I'm Jesus. The incarnation of Jesus is God saying look the human race is suffering. They're actually like they're trying to destroy themselves with how much of this dominion and they're killing each other and they're stealing and they're dominating each other. They're breaking all the commandments so much that they're destroying themselves. I'm going to go down there and I'm going to take all these vicious blows and attacks and I'm going to really go through the ringer. Who would want to do that? Why? Um to save them. I'm going to do this. I'm going to create this pathway by which they can be rescued. I'm going to take all this attack that evil is doing to the human race. I'm going to take it on myself so that we can get these people. They're all my kids. I love them all. We're going to get them out of there. That's I mean that's a gospel. That's some good news. And I have just found in in Swedenborg uh such a lovable God, you know, there there just I feel so at home with what he says and really as each decade and heaven knows I've been through so many decades already. I was going to say what was the Guinness World Record with each decade that rolls by I feel more at home. It was fun to revisit these things cuz I don't you know I don't know it's just interesting to have these challenges and people say hey you better not be thinking this you better not be saying that and and look at that because the these are beautiful teachings to me and this to me could change the world. It really has the power to it has a transformative power. And some of these other notions that have been out there have had centuries and they've had an interesting effect in some some areas or whatever. But something's something's lacking. Like we haven't got the full formula down pat yet, have we? You know, of how to have a heaven on earth.

Yeah. Right. Right. There's definitely penetration into the world of some of those Christian ideas and like maybe they've made the world better, but the world is still there's a there's a lot of religion in the world. I would think that it's doing some good, but the world is a long way from heaven on earth.

Yeah. Yeah. So, what's missing? And maybe some of it is we're we're a little off in the things that we value. And we could really turn that into this like tool for the end of suffering for the for the let uh you know let Jesus do the saving he wants to do.

Yeah. Um that's great. Well, thank you so much for talking through this with me. Was fun as always. Hopefully uh if you made it this far, that's some interesting food for thought as you weigh like what what's the Swedenborg thing? Is it is it heresy? Is it good? Um yeah, we appreciate you sticking with us. That's the end of this show. We'll see you on the next one. It's going to be great. [Music]