Abductee Whitley Strieber On The Grays And Humanity's Lost Powers | Unveiled Ep. 7

I woke up in the middle of the night on, I guess it was December the 26th, 1985, uh, with, you know, in a little room full of what appeared to me to be nightmare creatures. That picture is the beginning of contact between the ordinary human being and the visitors. When I walked out of Dr. Klein's office, I realized that it had been real. They were real. The government belongs to them.

Hello everybody. Welcome to Watch Mojo and the Unveiled Podcast. I am your host, Rob, and today's guest is Whitley Streiber. He is a prolific author of both fiction and non-fiction. His 1987 book, *Communion*, is one of the most iconic tellings of an alien encounter that's ever been written. It was made into a film starring Christopher Walken, and it's widely referenced to this day. So, he joins me to talk about that, as well as his latest book called *The Fourth Mind*, and the general state of UAP disclosure in the world today. Hello, Whitley. Thanks for joining us today.

Thank you. It's my pleasure.

Why don't we get started with a little bit of background on yourself? For anybody who isn't maybe familiar with your work or what you do, how did you get, uh, thrust into this world of aliens and and UAP?

Well, I was literally thrust into it. I woke up in the middle of the night on, I guess it was December the 26th, 1985, uh, with, you know, in a little room full of what appeared to me to be nightmare creatures. I didn't occur to me that I was abducted by aliens, but I thought I was having an exceptionally terrible nightmare. I could not not wake up, and there was a, a, um, an assault. Two things happened. Once, a needle was put into the side of my head, and also, I was raped with a, a machine that, uh, caused a sexual response or an erection. But no, I mean, it was not a sexy experience at all. It was something done to my, to the, uh, to the nerves, and, uh, semen was removed from my body. I was beside myself. I had no idea where I was or what was going on, and I could not move.

The next thing I knew, I woke up in the morning in my bed with this bizarre sense of having had a horrible night. And the, I thought to myself, I'd seen an owl in the house because these beings had these big black eyes. Over the next six weeks, I struggled with this. First, when I realized I had been injured, my doctor told me I had a lesion in my rectum. Uh, I called the criminal investigation division to try to get, because I thought I had been assaulted. In other words, there's no, the idea of aliens has never even occurred to me. Not then. I'd had some of this experience when I was a child, but was long forgotten. Not, not an abduction, but there was other things that happened when I was a child. And, uh, so I gradually came to the conclusion, after eliminating everything else, that it had to have been a real experience.

A man named Bud Hopkins. I had found him. His name in the back of a book about UFOs that my brother had given me. And you understand, I had not thought about flying saucers since I was 12, and it just wasn't even, even in my mind at all. And, uh, so I, uh, read this book. It was a Christmas gift, and I wouldn't have read it, but I was, I, I, I was remembering these eyes. And I was somewhere in the back of my mind was that if this happened and they really did look like that, then that was what it was. And sure enough, at the back of the book, there was this description of an event just similar to what happened to me. And so I called this man, Bud Hopkins, who was mentioned in the book, and he turned out to live just a couple of blocks from us in Manhattan. So we went to see him. And I'm still, was very skeptical, and so was my wife. And he wanted to hypnotize me. And I thought to myself, here's an artist. I don't see any psychologist. There was on his wall. So, no, absolutely not. He proceeded to get me in touch with Dr. Donald Klein, one of the world's leading forensic hypnotists, and the head of the New York State Department of Psychiatry at the time, and who had proven his abilities in forensic hypnosis. And don't ever let anybody tell you hypnosis doesn't work. That's something that comes out of social engineering in the defense, in the, uh, intelligence, uh, field. It does work in the hands of somebody who knows what they're doing, and Dr. Klein certainly did. And me and Dr. Klein were both laughing about Bud Hopkins's ideas and theories until the hypnosis, and it was appalling. Absolutely appalling. The tapes for it can be found on my website, actually, on unknowncountry.com. They're still, they still exist. And that's when it began. When I walked out of Dr. Klein's office, I realized that it had been real. They were real.

That sounds like a horrifying experience. And, and how did that shape your worldview moving forward?

Changed my worldview a little bit. Must have, yeah. Well, uh, the first thing that happened was, we discussed, my wife and I discussed, should we sell our cabin? We'd had a little cabin, we had a second home in Upstate New York. We'd just bought it the March before, and not go back there. And she was not of that mind at all. She said, why should we abandon it? Why should we ignore it? It's one of the most extraordinary things I've ever heard happening to anybody. At the time, we had no idea there were a lot of people this had happened to. Never occurred to us. So I went to, I got to know Bud Hopkins and a few of the people who worked with him. And, uh, I mean, the other close encounter witnesses. We used to go to their meetings, and they seemed like a nice bunch of people. And Bud was a good, earnest man, perhaps a little bit in over his head when it comes to this, but it wouldn't be so, uh, uh, we did decide to go back to the cabin, even though we had at that time a seven-year-old child. It never dreamed that they would come back. And I began to think, what if I try to reconnect with them? So I said to Annie, my wife, and now deceased, I said, Annie, what if I, how would we go about that? I said, what I think is I should go out in the woods to where it happened, which I had identified the area pretty clearly from my memories of being, of the beginning of the abduction, which took place in the woods, which I remembered quite clearly under Dr. Klein's guidance. So she, I said to her, why don't we go out tonight and just show that we know this and we're interested to demonstrate this? She said, well, it didn't happen to me, and I'm not going out there at night. No way. Anyway, we've got a little boy here, I can't leave him. So that was the first night. I started going out in the woods. The first night, I couldn't get past the end of the yard. It was very frightening, very, very frightening. And over the next months and years, I did go out in the woods. I went deep into the woods in the dead of the night, many times. And while I did not often see the visitors there, they did reconnect with me profoundly. And that's my life now.

Well, was it a difficult decision to write *Communion* and share your story with the entire world? I know there was a fair bit of skepticism and criticism at the time, but, you know, 40 years almost later, have you seen a shift in that, uh, perception, um, as time has gone on?

Well, first of all, there was no difficulty deciding to write it, although there probably should have been, because I had no idea of any of that. But said that maybe 50 people had had these experiences, and so I thought I was writing a fascinating story, a sort of, sort of an excursion into another field because of this remarkable thing that had happened. Little did I know that there was a big government deal going on and all kinds of ghastly craziness and so forth. And the book just exploded in my face, frankly. I had no idea. The publisher, the editor called me and said, we're getting big sales on the West Coast, and that was the first time I knew that something unusual was happening with that book. Now, I understand that the cover, which incidentally, the original is right back behind me, you can see it beside the picture of my beloved wife, um, who I left in, died in 2015. In any case, uh, that image right there triggered memories in hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of people around the world, and still does. That picture is the beginning of contact between the ordinary human being and the visitors. Amazingly. And no, I had no, if I had known that at the time, I would have frozen solid. I would not have been able to write a word.

How was it immediately received, um, when, when it was published in 1987, and, and over the years, has there been a, a shift in the perception of, of your story?

The immediate response was a nice review in the New York Times. And then two things have happened over the years. First, uh, the intelligence community went to work on the media immediately because they're very involved in this, and they have excellent social engineering controls. And before I knew it, there were stories all over the place saying, lie detectors don't really work, which of course, they use in the CIA all the time to vet their, their officers, and hypnosis isn't real, and all of this guff that started going on. And the media, always obedient media, became hostile to me over the first few weeks. And while by the time I was on my author tour, they were snickering about the rectal probes and things. And I realized, you know, Whitley, you were raped, and these people are laughing at your rape. That went on for 30 years. I had my, that, that agonizing and horrifying experience laughed at. I became a figure of fun because I was raped. And, um, I have a lot, there's now, it's a little different though, a little different. There's a whole contingent of people in your field, in mine, the podcasting business, who will not talk to me, and in the intellectual community who will not talk to me, who will not allow me to speak at their conferences and so forth. And these are all people who are connected in one way or another with the intelligence community, or know someone who has said to them, stay away from Whitley. And they're still, the, the, what the, uh, happening within the Air Force and within a lot, a significant part of the intelligence community is they want to reframe this as a religious experience. In other words, they're working for the visitors because they do not, there's absolutely no connection to our religions. There is a, there's a, people out there who want to say it's the Blessed Virgin Mary and relate it to the second coming of Christ in on Easter of, uh, 2026 and stuff. Those are all people who have connections to the government because the, especially the Air Force is very religious, and they see this in terms of good and bad angels. And of course, I'm the bad angel, naturally. Why? Because I don't believe their guff, frankly. It has nothing to do or very little to do with our religious traditions. The, our visitors would might like us to think that they are already embedded in our society. But, but if you read, especially the new book, *The Fourth Mind*, it shows why that cannot be true. These are recent arrivals. They're recent arrivals. The, the, the Jack Val's book, *Passport to Magonia*, shows not that they've been here for a long time, but that there have been many incursions into our world over the years. And why wouldn't there be? You know, how many planets there are in this universe? We've, we've been able to establish a planet, some planet density averages using the Webb Space Telescope and, to a lesser extent, Hubble. And the calculation is there are 21.6 sextillion planets in this universe and trillions in this galaxy. Therefore, it would be astonishing if the same species had visited us twice. What we look at, as we look at our past and see indications of this is not these people, the same people, but many people come and take a look at us and pass us on, pass us by. They've been passing us by when, when, uh, they'd seen that we couldn't respond to them usefully. If you read Ezekiel, he, he, God knows what he thought he was seeing, but one thing he couldn't do was even begin to communicate meaningfully with whoever was there. And the Epicalus is the same way. They thought of them as gods or demons and stuff. Now, the US Air Force still does, and they want them to be angels, but they think they're also demons here. And guess who's in league with the demons? You're looking at him. And I am not either. I could not be less interested in those old mythologies. They have nothing at all to do with what's happening.

I definitely would like to talk about the new book. I read it, and there's so many interesting things in there. But just to follow up on the point of the intelligence community wanting to relate this to a religious event, what would be the motive for doing that?

Fear is the motive. They are aware, very aware of the abductions. I know that for a simple, straightforward reason. Dr. David W. Webb, who was a space scientist of great stature, and if you look, David W. Webb on up on, uh, Wikipedia, you'll see he was consulting with every single alphabet there was. He came into our lives in, uh, 1986. And at the time, he was rather vague about his origins. I had been told by Stanton Friedman, the UFO investigator, that he wanted, I think it was Stanton, and wanted to contact me. And so I, I always say yes, I'm a very affable person. I like people. So I'm, I'm not the kind of person who hides. I'm not a celebrity. I'm me. So anyway, he came up to the, he first, he came and had dinner with us in, in New York. Then he came up to the cabin. And he was oddly knowledgeable and helpful. And he introduced me to an allergist and said, he seemed to know that if the visitors touched me, there would be an allergic, could be an allergic reaction. That he said things like that, they could suppress it if they wanted to, but they might not. And so we, the allergist started giving me shots. And the, um, house was filled with epinephrine injectors in every room because we had guests up who would also see the, meet the visitors in the house. And if someone had an overt, extreme reaction, the epinephrine injectors were there. That all came from David. So the government knew. It knew in 1985. It, you know, a lot in 1985. Right now, there's an FBI investigation going on. It's a national security investigation, and it has one purpose: so that the FBI can, after doing essentially nothing, announce that it has investigated the abductions and they never happened. Then the next step is to make this into a religious experience. In other words, the government belongs to them. This is their policy being enacted. It's not ours. We are going to end up in a religious experience with somebody who simply wants a convenient way of exploiting us.

Your book is very interesting because it's divided into two parts. The first section being about the visitors, and the second part being about us humans. And the first part goes into great detail. Actually, it's based on a Reddit post, which I recognized immediately because at the time that it was circulating, my friend sent it to me, so I read it as soon as it came out. And, and I was, I was pleased to see that it was talking about the same post in your book where this anonymous scientist was going through the different biological characteristics of the entities that we commonly refer to as grays that are being held by, uh, the intelligence agencies. And, you know, uh, you basically took his, uh, information and cross-referenced it with your own experiences. Uh, can you elaborate on that a little bit?

Well, someone sent me the Reddit post at some point. I have no idea if it was, whether or not it was when it came out or not. Um, but as I was reading it, something jumped out at me. It was the, the means by which these beings evacuate waste from their bodies. It's very unique, and I had seen it done. I had watched them doing it and knew what it was. I had mentioned it in passing to Bud Hopkins, and he was so disgusted, he said, that must be your imagination. And I just dropped it. Then there it is in the Reddit document. I never published it anywhere. No one had ever mentioned it. It's not anywhere in the literature, but there it was. And I thought, my God, this must be real. So I read the document, and I made it my business to learn genetics from the ground up. And, uh, I figured out the anatomy of the visitors and how it related. They had showed me at one point an identical image of, of one of them in, in my mind's eye, where it was like a television screen, and it showed it, all of its, all of its workings. And, uh, we also, they came into the house quite frequently, and we saw them. I mean, so, yeah, I was able to go through that document in detail and compare my life experience to its descriptions. And boy, that has done, it's selling like crazy, just like *Communion*. But just like *Communion*, it has really annoyed the Defense Department. And I have to wonder how long it'll be available because they'll come after Amazon eventually. And, you know, these companies, they are, they will comply with anything they're asked to do. And so I hope it stays available. That's all I can say.

I hope so too. Um, just to pick up on the timeline that we had spoken about, so you tried to reestablish contact with the visitors by going back to the area where you had the, the, the memories of being, being abducted. How did things, how did things progress from there? You mentioned that they then were coming into your house and you were seeing them all the time. So how did this relationship develop over time?

Here's how it developed. It worked well. First, there were indications, very subtle indications in the house that they had been around. We would hear tapping footsteps on the porch in front and see these holes in the ground. And I had seen their feet. They look like goat's feet almost, but they're actually fused toes. They look like they're walking on their toes. And, uh, they, they would leave these holes in the ground where they had moved. And also in the snow. They also move a few feet above the ground. They levitate and glide along very fast, too. Boy. Um, so that was all going on, and it started after I started going out in the woods. But we couldn't really pin it down. And so I started going into the woods where I made a stone circle and meditated in the circle. Certain type of meditation that I had learned was important to them. And, uh, what happened during the meditation, it's hard to put it into words, is that there was a communication of a kind that we don't actually have. It's sort of like telepathy, but it's not quite that way. In other words, it's not in words, it's in, it's in, um, realization, a sort of, it feels like a series of realizations that are coming into your mind out of nowhere. And I began to respond by saying that, let's have a meeting. I want to sit down on a bench. I even had a bench built nearby that we could sit on together and have a meeting. And one morning in February of 1988, I think it was, or maybe '87, there came three loud noises like, like the sound of a chauffeur or a horn from the woods above the woods. And I thought, they're here. I knew it immediately. It was just in the pre-dawn. And I jumped out of bed, put on my, February, it was really cold, and there's snow on the ground. Put on my slippers, put on my robe, and went out across the deck, up the little hill which led into the small woods where the circle was. And I could see beyond the woods, which were naked because it was winter. I could see a dark shape in the, in the clearing beyond the woods. And I could hear a certain sound that I have not mentioned anywhere yet, uh, that is the sound that these, some of these devices make when they're idling. And, um, so I knew that it was them. And I could see figures out there too. And I thought, it is them. They have come. And I was just about to just walk right down there. But because I stopped this, I heard a voice. And this was a telepathic voice in my head, not like what I was talking about a moment ago, saying, come on, come on. I have my limitations. I had a family back there in that cabin, and I'm not going to go down to meet that voice all alone in the woods by myself, completely helpless. And I turned around and went back to the cabin. When I put my hand on the doorknob, something very important happened that does figure in *The Fourth Mind*. Three cries came from above the woods. Oh, oh, oh. And those sounds remain the most emotionally rich sounds of any kind I have ever heard. And they were delivered with such absolute perfection, in other words, in terms of the tonality, the gratings of the tones, and the distance between them, that I could not listen to music for a year afterwards. It all sounded like mud. We do not know in our world anything that perfect. Nothing. And when you are exposed to it, it's a profound change in your experience of life. I went on into the cabin. I went upstairs, and suddenly I was aware of an invisible presence. We had become very sensitive to invisible presences by then. In front of me, we could all three of us, myself, my wife, my son, and certainly our two cats, were quite aware that the visitors were often in there invisibly. So I, uh, tried to take my attention into my body and do this thing I call the "singing exercise." From the, it's a long story about that, but get to that if you want to. Anyway, immediately I found myself plunged into another reality. I was kind of gliding along, and I saw these sticks standing, beautiful, graceful sticks standing up. And I thought, what has happened now? Where am I? And I looked up, and I realized where I was. I had been a memory that was my mother's desk in her room when I was a tiny baby. I had been taken back in my mind to the moment that I first walked. The moment I first walked. It was incredible. And it ended after a couple of minutes, and I was back, back in my regular body. But I had experienced with an adult consciousness the moment I first walked. In other words, there had been a communication. Yes, you failed on one level because you're here in the bedroom, not with us, but you have succeeded in that you have taken a first step. And that's where the relationship began to deepen to what it is now, to this day.

That book, *The Fourth Mind*, that's not Whitley Streiber. That's a committee that wrote that book. Me and all kinds of people who work with me through my implant. And I don't think of them as alien versus us anymore. They're people to me. They're, they're people that I know and have learned to respect. To always be aware that you have to be careful because they're not us, and they're not like us. They're not other versions of us. They have a different brain and a different perceptual system. They're different. But once you accept that, living with them is fascinating. I don't often see them physically, but we work together all the time.

There's a striking quote towards the beginning of your book that says, "We are a species in amnesia about our past and in denial about our present." Can you elaborate on that and how does that connect to the experiences that you've had?

Yeah, okay. We're in denial about our present. Take something like, um, precognition or telepathy or any of those unusual traits, which were also discussed in the book. Uh, uh, telepathy has been proven. It's been proven many different ways now. There's the telepathy tapes of Kai Dickens and Diane Hennessy Powell. These, this is real. But you will not find anything about it in *Nature* magazine, in, in the magazine of science at all. The reason is, we can't go there because we have no mechanism to study. And this is not, I know many scientists who would love to figure out how to study this, but they don't. And they don't because they can't. You know, what, what is it between two minds that, that connects thoughts? We don't have that mechanism. My suggestion has been, and I think this is would be a good place to begin, is what we do have now are more and more sensitive abilities to study genetics and to study the anatomy of the brain and comparative anatomical studies of the brains of people who can do this sort of thing and who can't, and studies of their genetics. Is going to net us some kind of a physical baseline. And from there, perhaps we can get to the point where we can find some kind of a signal that we are able to detect. But until science detects, can detect and measure that signal, it essentially has nothing to do except sit there and wonder, just like the rest of us. So that's a beginning of that. Uh, now, first, it's, I'm sure there have been plenty of situations where people from other worlds of various kinds have visited Earth, and it's never taken. In other words, nobody's ever stayed, obviously. Now, our visitors, the new ones, the ones that are here now, have big plans. I think they do intend to stay. Because when they came, or perhaps were sent, it turned out that we weren't dependent on seeing them through the lens of mythologies and and beliefs. There were a few people around who could see them objectively. Not unfortunately, are people on the inside who are uniformly almost uniformly seeing them through a religious lens. But, um, as I said earlier, but people on the outside, like good scientists like Gary, Dr. Gary Nolan, or Dr. Jacques Vallee, and academics like Dr. Diana Pasulka and Dr. Jeffrey Kripal, the two latter ones, by the way, Diana wrote a beautiful preface for the book, and Jeffrey, uh, a forward. These are academics, and they came late, and I have to republish the book to put them in, but anyway, they're there. So these are people who, who, who, who are not in amnesia anymore. What happened to us though? Because if you look at the whole past, you see this planet is not just has a few things on it that we can't explain in engineering in the past. It's loaded with ruins that we can't explain. It's loaded with them. And I go into that in the book. Why? Like one of the ones that people hardly ever think about, but which is extraordinary, is the island, the artificial islands in the Carolinas in the Pacific, in the South Pacific, known as Nan Madol. This consists of huge basalt logs which have been carved out of a quarry not far from the, from where they are, and laid one on top of the other to the point that they become islands. Now, you think, oh, well, when the National Geographic sent a team out there, they found a fire pit from the 12th century and decided, well, it must have been the Polynesians in the 12th century who did this. I believe they've withdrawn that from their website because they have realized that a Polynesian group from the 12th century did not use canoes to take these blocks that distance. Maybe they could have done it with two or three, but there are at least 750,000 of them there. So it wasn't the Polynesians. I could go on. There is Baalbek, where these huge stone platforms exist. Of course, there's the Great Pyramid. And no matter how many hoops you jump through about how it was built, what you cannot explain is how a structure that large could have been cited so perfectly. We can't cite anything like that now. We don't have the skill. So that remains, you know, you can say that the little couf of Khufu inside the thing, which very well have been made by a, uh, uh, an Egyptologist of the period and not even ancient. You can say that that cartouche proves it's Khufu's pyramid, but what it doesn't prove is how someone could cite that enormous object so skillfully. And you go across the planet, and there are many, many such things. Now, we go back, let's go back to before history. Let's go back to 12,000 BC. 12,000 BC, the ice giant is here. It's the depths of the Ice Age. The Laurentide Glacier stretches to the central United States. Canada is an ice pack. Uh, the glacier stretches into central, the North Central Europe, and most of Russia is ice. Human beings cling to life in the south. Something has happened, however, in the, I'm going back. I'm sorry to be sort of, I'm just reliving it as I talk about it. It's coming to me in pictures, and it's a little hard to concentrate for that reason. So just saying, I wish the pictures would stop. So, um, going back even further now, 30,000 years ago, a star explodes. We know it exploded because of what it, what the gamma rays did here, which is that they caused a strip of land to, all of the large angulates on a strip of land from Southeast Asia through Australia died out. All of the big marsupials died out. When we arrived in, people arrived in, uh, Australia, there were no more large marsupials. The, the whole, they were all gone because unlike the small ones who hid in burrows when this happened, the big ones were just standing out there. When a second sun appeared in the sky, this sun was shedding the planet with, with gamma rays and killed a lot of fauna and probably flora as well. Then fast forward again, 12,000 years. The physical debris, moving much more slowly from that supernova, arrives in our solar system. And suddenly, out of nowhere, and the sun begins to explode, uh, with solar flares because the sun is very sensitive to objects hitting it. And suddenly it's being hit by all kinds of dust and meteors and ice chunks of ice from this, uh, from this solar explosion. And what came from it afterwards, meanwhile, the planets are also bombarded. And this is why the, the, the Earth is bombarded by micrometeorites. And this is why, as I was just about to say, you find the, uh, bodies of, like, of mammoths frozen solid with food still in their mouths. If you look into those bodies, you will find tiny bits of iron embedded in the bone. And that iron is micrometeorites. That's what killed them. They were sheeted with micrometeorites and just dropped dead. Millions of them. Then a fire started across North America because a lot of these meteors were hot and incendiary. And the result of this was the entire continent burned. We know this because of a geologic feature called the black mat, which stretches from the Rocky Mountains all the way into, uh, almost in places all the way to Canada and into New England. There was a fire. In other words, you know, I'm in Los Angeles, and we've just, just had a terrible fire. This was a fire that essentially consumed a whole continent. A whole continent, which was heavily forested at the time, and then the forest bled off into tundra in the north. You don't find the black mat in the tundra areas so much. Then something else happened. Something struck the glacier with tremendous force. And we know this happened because splashback from this strike created millions of little craters in the Carolinas called the Carolina Bays. To this day, and these bays, they were, they're mysterious because there's no apparent origin for them. You, you dig into them, you don't find meteors, you don't find any debris. That's because the debris was ice, and it melted. So then the glacier is broken loose and starts sliding down the Mississippi Valley. At that point, the, uh, there had, this is the beginning of what's called the Younger Dryas. The, uh, the Older Dryas had caused a, something of an increase in sea levels. But the Younger Dryas, not only did it cause an increase in sea levels, the glaciers falling all over the world into the water with such intensity caused immense tidal waves around the world. Sea levels rose 400 feet in a matter of hours, our days, I should say. Now, we, people say, well, this is all, there couldn't have been a civilization then. Oh, no. Well, we've never looked that deep for anything archaeological. Very rarely, and very, because it's so difficult, it's expensive as hell and hard to do, and where to look. Anyway, um, you know, there's a few artifacts here and there, the Bimini Road and other things that suggest, and Graham Hancock has done excellent work in this area. But what happened was this planet was overwhelmed by a massive catastrophe. Because then the next thing, as the Younger Dryas was concluding and warming up, there was melt, and the melt caused, uh, I've got it wrong by the way. Uh, no, I don't. I don't. The melt caused a flood that lasted over the central United States for about a thousand years. This flood, when you dig down into, into the black mat, you find carbonized wood fragments and you find algae skeletons. This flood, it didn't last like it was not Noah's flood. It was much worse. It was the area became a gigantic lake for thousands of, a thousand years. Through all of this, the skies were continuously alight with auroras that probably covered the entire planet as debris kept striking the sun and causing it to flare. What do we get out of this? We get flood myths from around the world, and we get, uh, stories of gods at war in the heavens. There weren't gods at war. It was the worst god of all, the one we fear so much, we will do anything to prevent this god, to make it unnecessary to face this god. The god that was actually involved was the blind random chance of life in, in this universe. That was the god. And the theory about all of this is that prior to this cataclysm, there was a civilization, an advanced civilization on Earth that had capabilities and and technologies that you reference in the book, that we have since lost, but that these visitors do possess. The epigraph to the book is a quote from Chan Thomas, the author of *The Adam and Eve Story*. "The Adam and Eve Story remains to this day partly classified because it is about our distant past and its significance for us now." Two weeks ago on Dreamland, or I don't know when you're going to record this, but recently, I should say, on Dreamland, I did a show with a man called Peter Robbins, who was, he's a UFO investigator, and he has methodically collected hundreds of images from the Moon and Mars which have been airbrushed out. And you can see here and there in corners, behind the airbrushing, that there are structures that NASA is hiding from us. Some of those structures may be new, but some of the things that haven't been hidden are clearly structural in nature and ruined and very, very old. I, I think the truth is this: we had at least a solar system-wide civilization. It was destroyed by this event. And maybe there was a war of some kind. I don't know. I couldn't discount it completely. But we entered a state of amnesia from the sheer shock of it. This went on for a thousand years. There was generation after generation of human beings who did not, not know anything except a world in upheaval. This is also the time when farming began because the people who were left alive were the people of the uplands, the hunter-gatherers, the wanderers, not the people in the sophisticated cities. Because right now, if the sea levels rose 400 feet, our civilization is more developed and it has a higher population than that one did, clearly, but we would lose, lose most of our great cities, would lose most of them because they're mostly near the water. They lost all of theirs. There are places here and there, there's Rockwall, Texas, there's a strange wall, and there are walls that have been found in places like Kentucky and around the world, very deeply buried, suggesting that a long, long time ago, there were, there were structures there of some kind. There's some structures like that in Indonesia and in Croatia as well, but not much because everything, of course, was concentrated on the coasts. It wasn't a big industrial civilization like ours, or even a pre-industrial one like Rome and the classical world. It was something else. And this is where we get to in the book, what we have lost. We have lost our abilities that enabled us to do things like build Nan Madol and create and cut those gigantic stones and move them at Baalbek and cite the Great Pyramid so perfectly. We have lost all of that. And we have also lost telepathy. And I show in the book how in the distant past, this was actually how we communicated. We, we always, people always say, well, they couldn't have communicated because they couldn't, there, they weren't ocean, the oceans, it was impossible for them. They didn't need that. They used the mind. And we're, this is why when I went to a conference recently, a big conference at, uh, Gary Nolan has at, uh, uh, uh, at, uh, Stanford, called The Soul Foundation conference, I went there with a message. There was a pod told called the Telepathy Tapes. Everyone has to listen to it immediately because it proves that telepathy is real. And it does that by showing how it works among unvoiced people and spellers. They're called, uh, mostly autistic, who don't speak. And then Dr. Diane Hennessy Powell, and I mentioned, I know I referenced this earlier, has a book out about it called *The ESP Enigma*. Which is presently, I think, uh, not on Amazon, but you can, if you Google *The ESP Enigma*, you can find it. I believe the audiobook is still present, but they took the, the regular book down because of pressure from, you know who. Somebody doesn't want us to know any of this. None of it. They don't want us to know what's happening in the present. They don't want us to know what's happening in the past. Chan Thomas found out, Peter Robbins found out, I found out. Everyone's going to find out now. But how long will it last? They will crack down. I'm quite sure.

Well, let's talk about that a little bit more because there is a disclosure movement happening, and telepathy has become kind of a central talking point recently. There was, uh, a whistleblower from the military, Jake Barber, who came forward recently and mentioned that the military possesses people with, he refers to them as psionics, who can communicate with UAPs and then they are able to kind of take them down and recover the ships. So that has been kind of an interesting talking point recently, which ties in very closely with some of the themes of your book. What are your thoughts on that? Like, is this, is there a reason that this is coming to the forefront now in terms of this disclosure and how this is all being spoken about openly?

Well, UAP, yeah, it is. One of the religious people has announced that the second coming is going to occur on, uh, Easter Sunday in 2026. One of the people connected with the government indirectly. And he's saying that the second coming will be then. And I thought to myself, well, he probably knows something's going to happen about then. And, um, but it's not going to be the second coming. It's going to be what a lot of people wish we would believe was the second coming, as if these visitors have anything to do with one specific religion. There's thousands of religions on this planet. Why would they be one that they single out? Why wouldn't it be Krishna? I mean, we might, that might be an interesting experience if Krishna showed up instead of Jesus at the second coming. So anyway, um, uh, we're in a situation with, I understand from them. You understand, I'm not, I, I do not, I've been have, give, I can't tell you how many predictions they've given me. Most of them haven't come true. And if you look back across the history of the UFO movement, there's all kinds of situations where people went out on mountains and, uh, waited for them, the end of the world, and this and that, and the, the arrival of the flying saucer, the etcetera, and it never happened. Never happened. And so, but, but something is happening. It is that the planet, and this is, I don't care about politics. I'm not interested. I'm interested in nature and the numbers that express the condition of nature. That's all I'm interested in. Those numbers are telling us very clearly that within a few more years, the planet's environment is going to change in fundamental ways that are going to be, uh, not helpful to the human species. And the, the visitors, it's there, as far as I understand it, they will show up in great numbers when we are all certain that the planet cannot sustain us anymore. And this gets into the relationship between them and the dead, and us, and what's happening here. Is we discover telepathy, we're going to discover levitation. We, we're going to recover all of these powers that we had before. They were stripped from us by the sheer shock of the Younger Dryas. We will, we will recover many of them, maybe all of them. At that point, though, the planet is going to collapse around our ears, and the visitors are going to show up. I, Jake Barber said at one point, he says, I don't feel eschatological shock. I feel eschatological relief. And I thought, that's because eschatological shock hasn't happened yet, my friend. It will, though. And it's going to be profound. It will profoundly change the whole nature of human experience. I wouldn't be surprised if the, if the veil between the living and the dead drops all together, because they are still very much present in our world. My wife was quite skillful in this, and without my knowing it, nine months before she passed away, she began to create the conditions that would enable her to provably return. And, uh, without going into too much detail, I mean, I could, it's all in a book called *The Afterlife Revolution* that we wrote together after she passed. She successfully proved to me that she was still here, and she created an avatar in the form of a white moth. And the white moth became a very useful tool because the white moth would show up, like, for example, speaking of the Esalen Institute that I briefly mentioned earlier, I was at a private conference there, and I, um, was talking about *The Afterlife Revolution*. And while I was, after I, my talk, everyone went up to the, to eat lunch, and a white moth appears, this in February, and flew around the table where everyone was sitting, and everyone was laughing and looking at it and so forth. Then when we were having our final dinner together that night, the white moth appeared in the banqueting hall where we were, and flew around and around with everybody clapping and cheering. And then landed on the head of a podcaster, Jeremy Vail, who Anne had liked very much and enjoyed his podcast. It was on unknowncountry, my website, for years until he quit doing it. And everyone was laughing and cheering, and it was such fun to see this. Then it ascended into the air, flew into the middle of the room, and just disappeared like a magic trick. It was all her doing. They're still with us. Well, as I, I believe I may have said this a moment ago, but one of the first things she said was, "It looks like you're all intentionally ignoring us." Well, we're not going to much longer. We're going to have to turn around because we're going to be in an extreme state of stress with a visitor showing up.

The planet collapsing around our ears, we will find a new mankind. That concept of the veil dropping between life and death ties into something else that you mentioned in the book about the these visitors.

And that, first of all, there's evidence that their bodies are designed, that they're not naturally B, naturally occurring. Um, that they're actually specifically designed and and and possibly built. And that that speaks to the concept that they treat their bodies as kind of these disposable tools to use that don't really have any meaning, which is very different from humans, who typically we associate our entire selves with our bodies. You know, that's that's the way that that culture has kind of developed.

Um, I guess my question is, I have several questions about this, but what, what can you say about their attitude towards death from what you've observed, uh, based on the way that these bodies that they use to get around here, um, you know, how, how they're made and how they're utilized?

Okay, well, first, the bodies, the ones that we have possession of that I know of, were at Fort Detrick at one point. Whether they're there now or even still exist now, I don't know, because if I know the Department of Defense, it's busily destroying everything it can so that people can't find it. Um, in any case, the bodies at Fort Detrick were non-reproducing. In other words, they didn't have sex organs. Therefore, they were manufactured in some way. They were partly biology and partly robotic.

Um, there are others that I have also met who do have sex organs. At least I've met a woman who did certainly have sex organs. And, um, the, uh, so there's two levels at least. Now, I can tell you this, when they lose a body, like these guys who shoot them, call them in, then shoot them down. You know what that is? We don't understand it. We think, "Oh my, we can, we can do this. This is cool."

Uh, I had John Bletch on Dreamland. That he's one of the people who are speaking out from within the government a few weeks, also a few weeks ago. And, uh, John was talking about how they could do that. And I said to him, "You, you understand what's happening? Is this in my book, A New World? I explained how the visitors had had communicated to me that we needed to be able to defend ourselves from their level of intrusion, or they couldn't really treat deal with us. They couldn't treat with us. They're trying to get us to the point where we have a, a, a, a viable presence."

What happens when the telepaths in the military call them in and then they shoot them down is they're in a training program that they don't know as a training program. They're learning this. And what they're shooting down doesn't matter at all. And it also results in us obtaining materials that we can use to further our technological understanding. In other words, these shootdowns are actually gifts. And if, if there are bodies involved, which there probably are sometime, it's always these little non-reproducing bodies, which are like when one of the visitors will show, would show up, the tall five-foot-tall ones would show up at my house. Uh, they would, she would often have a whole bunch of little ones around her. And that she communicated to me that this was the good army, and they were, they were all inhabited by her at the same time. They were all the same being. It's just that she had all these avatars that she could send out into dangerous situations that she was curious about without worrying about getting herself killed.

I would think killing one of the biologically complete ones would be very unwise. The others, the little ones, they don't care. It pisses them off because they lose something. And they're obviously, I mean, they have manufacturing and they have an economy of some kind, just like we do. And so something that it took work to build is, is, is destroyed. And, uh, doesn't make them happy.

But something else that I have been wondering about since reading your book is just the, um, you mentioned that it hasn't, they haven't necessarily been here for a long time, like there may have been isolated periods where different groups have visited Earth. And that we, you know, experiencing visitation from, from one kind right now. But to your knowledge, is it really like one species of being that is inhabiting Earth right now along with us, or are there many kinds? Are they, are they non-physical and creating these physical bodies so that they can interact with us? Like, what kind of, what kind of beings are we actually dealing with here?

Okay, um, I can tell you about three different types of being because I've seen three different types of being and interacted with them. Uh, I've seen the Grays, uh, which are the most familiar ones. I have had one encounter with two tall whites and one encounter with a child of a tall white, of the tall whites. And I have had one encounter with what is known as a Nordic, which is a very pale but essentially human-looking person who was voiced. Uh, uh, I don't know if the tall whites are voiced or not. The Grays aren't. They have no vocal cords. They have no syrinx, which is what a bird uses to make notes. That's why I heard only three very complex, emotionally complex cries. That's the only sound they can make. And this relates to the Spellers. The Spellers are telepathic because they don't have voices. The Grays are telepathic because they don't have voices. But the difference is this: the Spellers are an isolated community in a voiced, in a, in, in, in a voiced species. The Grays are an unvoiced species that is generally telepathic. And it is a very different experience to get close to them in the mind because there's only essentially one of them with many, many different shadings of personality. Uh, and, but it's very, they don't have war with themselves ever, but they might become very aggressive if they're, uh, prodded from the outside.

Where did we start here? I got, got prolix. I apologize. Right. I was, I was just wondering about because we had mentioned that their bodies are more or less like avatars for themselves. Does that mean that they have non-physical, uh, like presence?

That's okay. All right. Well, I'll tell you what I think I saw, believe I saw. And I'm always so equivocal about this because when you're with them, you're not in this mental state, you're in another mental state. And you can bring memories back from it, at least I can, and some other people I know can. But those memories can become quite distorted because there's the, the way the body works, the memory works, is it's a comparative mechanism. It compares what you're seeing now to things you've seen earlier. And you've been building that since childhood. When you confront something that you've never seen before, that you don't have any comparison for, it may slip away quite quickly. That's why, for example, I forgot my childhood memories, and so many people forget. My son has forgotten all of his childhood memories, but I saw them happen, a lot of them.

So what I saw was one of the little ones open a drawer, a long drawer, and there were a bunch of ones like him. And in the, in the drawer, lying there with their mouths sort of slack, like they were just like they were, they looked like dolls. And suddenly they began to come to life and come out and up out of the drawer. And that's why I understand them as being avatars of an, what we would call a spirit or a disembodied presence, which is actually some kind of a concentration of consciousness that has a coherent, uh, self to it, a coherent presence, which I think our dead also have for the most part. And so I, that's why I think they use these bodies like we use clothes or diving suits.

Do you think that the same might apply to us, but just without our knowledge? That we, that we may have, you know, this, um, concentrated consciousness, you know, that that is the source of, of our beings, but we don't realize that maybe as, as a result of the amnesia that you were just talking about before we eventually realize it when the body stops functioning?

The visitors can take me out of my body. There's a place right back here, right at the C1 vertebra, the top vertebrae. And they'll touch it with something that causes a kind of electricity to go down my spine. And I can feel what feels like clamps opening on my spine, and I can just roll right out of my body. I can see it there, and it's a completely perfect separation. I've been, I've met, talked to people, and gone places like this. And it's not happened often because I finally decided they just didn't trust me not to go to the White House and scare the president or something, which probably would have done.

So you can get out of your, we can get out of our bodies too. But I don't think we are meant to do that until death. I believe that may be changing though, as I, we've referred to earlier, this fundamental change that's coming. Um, uh, in, I think the dead are all around us. I think our dead. And when people say that they feel a presence, it's often their de, their own dead. I think these orbs that show up are usually us. Uh, uh, because there's a man that meditated with me for years, a year, a couple of years at the cabin in the Old Have in Upstate New York. And he could manifest physically. In other words, he could become a physical presence, or he could become an orb. And he was with six others, and they would float around in the woods. These orbs would float around in the woods. I never saw them, but my son's friends and he did see them.

And, um, then he turned into a very bright orb on the last night we had the cabin. I got beat up a lot in the media, and people stopped buying my books. I lost that cabin. And, uh, that last night, um, he showed up and we had a remarkable connection. He was just a bright thing, about the size of a basketball, hovering over the front yard with these white, thin white beams coming out of it. And they were like laser beams. And when they, I was watching this, I saw this out of the front window of our bedroom. And when they would touch me, they brought with them almost a taste of him, like an essence. It was just beautiful. It was one of the most beautiful experiences I've ever had in my life.

That's amazing. That's us. That's us. That's what we are. So this is, now let's get a little further down here though. We are in this state for a very specific reason. It is to experience everything as new all the time and to gather that experience as a form of energy. And as to how that works, that is explained very clearly in the last SC document of soul science that exists on Earth, of real soul science, which is on the west wall of the entryway of the Pyramid of Unas. Uh, it's known as the Pyramid Text. And forget reading the so-called translation of the Pyramid Text. It's a silly, Eurocentric absurdity.

There is an author, Susan Brind Morrow, whose book, The Dawning Moon of the Mind, does address these hieroglyphics in a more rational way and a more useful way, and a more humble way, I might add, with respect instead of disdain, of the disdain of the ignorant who believes themsel, believe themselves to be superior to their intellectual betters, the ancient Egyptians. In any case, it describes the spine as a serpent of light, and around it are seven smaller serpents circling it all the time, drawing experience into the spine, which then accelerates it and into the, the next level, into the second body. And when you die, that's what you are. You are that second body. Your life experience goes with you.

And I was taken out of my body one time, years and years ago, and I had a wonderful time going around the room. And I was never out of this reality, out into the front yard, and experimenting with going up in the air. And so it was just such a delight. But when I came back, I was beside the bed, looking down at my body. I thought, "Wait a minute, nobody told me how to get back in." And so I'm, I'm all alone here with this. Now, typical of the Grays, they get you out and then they go, "You know, you're on your own." They don't tell you anything about getting back in.

So then I noticed when I stopped moving, I slowly started drifting downward a little bit. And I knew then that it was because there, my soul was a little too heavy. Finally, I thought I'd lay down in my body. And it, I just sort of slid out of it. I kept sliding out of it. And I said, "Oh no, he's going to wake up in the morning with a dead body beside her. Now what?" Then suddenly I saw this vivid image from my childhood of my dad mowing the lawn. And he looks up and he says, "When are you going to come help me?" And got back in my body in an instant. It didn't take anything except Dad and the lawn mower.

But here's the thing, that little bit of weight. If you read the, the 42 Laws of Ma'at, you will find how to die as the Egyptians wanted to die, lighter than a feather, so you will ascend. A vast amount of Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, Shinto, Zen literature, in fact, of all world religions, is about that. How do I die without any connections left to the Earth, to the, to my life? How do I die light as a feather, or lighter than a feather? Annie had was a master, frankly. I'll be, she would be really pissed off hearing me say that because she used to say, "Every master that isn't hidden isn't a real master." I said, "What about Buddha?" And she would said, "He's hidden. He's still hidden." And, um, that's true because Buddha said, uh, uh, "No images of me." But if you go to, uh, uh, Bodh Gaya in India, the first thing you see is a 150-foot-tall statue of Buddha looming over the Bodhi Tree. So Buddha is still hidden.

In any case, she said, "This enlightenment is what happens when there is nothing left of us but love." Those are extremely powerful words. The love she was referring to was not sentimental love that we have in our daily lives. It was what's called objective love, which is the urgency that began the universe in the first place. It's the urgency of God, and God to create. This is what we have to find in ourselves. This is the, this is what inner search is all about. And you know, you can find it easily. Meister Eckhart, the 12th-century German mystical philosopher and theologian, said it best: "God laughs and plays. You find your laughter."

She, we were in the Gurdjieff Foundation for a long time. And that's a foundation founded by an Armenian mystic called G.I. Gurdjieff, who had a lot of fascinating ideas. But unfortunately, like all things like that, it's kind of in decline, in my opinion. Although if you're interested, you can go to Gurdjieff Foundation.org and you can find it and explore it. Uh, they can't, they don't laugh. Annie used to say, "I'm not going to the meetings because they don't laugh." Laughter is the beginning. When you laugh, you're beginning your inner work. Laugh and play, she would say. Laugh and play. That's how to become enlightened. And, uh, if you read the works of Buddha, he didn't do it that way quite, but that was what she said.

She said another thing, and this is so deeply freeing, and I do wish more of our politicians would take it to heart. I asked her, "What is compassion?" Because I always wonder about that. And she was so compassionate and just naturally. I mean, she knew just how to, how to be compassionate. And it wasn't always pretty. It was sometimes her compassion blew people out of the water, frankly. Um, and she said simply this: she said, "Each of us is all we have. Each of us is all we have." And when you think of that, I look over at you. You're all you have. You know what that makes me feel? It makes my heart fill with a feeling of regard for you and hope for you and interest in your life. It can do it for myself too. It can do it for anybody walking the street. Those few words change your life. Each of us is all we have. And I say to your audience, look at others and think that in your mind, that person there is all they have, just like me. And suddenly, the most awful people come to seem deeply human.

That is a profound message. Yeah, I think that's a fantastic way to, to end it. Um, I, I hope that everybody feels that message the way that I do right now, because I, I think that's, that's very important. Yeah, I saw it in your face. You got it. Yeah, I do. Whitley, I want to thank you so much for sharing your story, your stories with us. Uh, it means a lot to me. I, I, all I want is to have these conversations and expose them to, to more people so that that we can all share this experience together in, in a graceful way as opposed to in a fearful and, and troubling way. Um, and I think that, you know, with stories like these, we're accomplishing that. So I want to thank you. Yes, we advance on story. That's our, our Jacob's Ladder is stories. Absolutely. So for everybody who watched, I want to thank you as well. Um, we'll be back soon with, uh, some more interviews. And until then, take care, be well, and stay curious, everybody. Take care. [Music]