Transcription
Foreign. [Music] Hello and welcome to Kika's Corner. My name is Kika Matos, and I am your host. On this show, we talk about our community, our city, and the world, but always, always, always, we always do it through a social justice lens. So, let's get started.
You may recall that about six months ago, we talked on this show about community policing in our beloved city during a time of transition and controversy over the leadership of the New Haven Police Department and the overall feeling that community policing was dead and buried in New Haven. Today, we are in a very different place, in part due to community organizing and the leadership of the Board of Alders. So, you may ask, what has changed and what am I talking about?
Well, what has changed is that the former chief of police stepped down. A search was conducted for a new chief of police, and next week, the Board of Alders will vote on the nomination of the proposed candidate. He is someone who is well known in our community, and he is, I'm happy to say, our guest on today's show. His name is Carl Jacobson. Chief Jacobson, welcome to the show.
Thank you. I appreciate you having me here. Um, this is real important. Um, we've done some community things in the past, and I appreciate what you do for our community.
Thank you, sir. Um, before we talk about your vision on the, uh, for the department and the challenges and opportunities that are, that are ahead of you, let's talk a little bit about who you are. And the reason I want to emphasize, uh, that is because you do not have much of a digital footprint. When I was preparing for the show, I Googled you, and there are a bunch of Carl Jacobsons on Google, but very few of them are you. Um, so, so who is Carl Jacobson? Where were you born and where did you grow up?
Well, thanks. Not many people have asked me that. Um, I'm born in Boston, Massachusetts, and then after my parents divorced at a young age, I was, at a young age, we moved to Middletown, Rhode Island, which is a small community next to Newport, Rhode Island, and I grew up in that community. Um, kind of in a low-income housing area of the Middletown-Newport border. Um, kind of more of a high-crime area. You don't think of Newport as a high-crime area, but it was. Um, and I grew up in that area and graduated from high school there. And I was originally, it was always my dream to be a police officer. So, I was originally hired by the East Providence Police, where I stayed for almost nine and a half years. I had gotten married in the meantime and had children with someone from North Branford, Connecticut, and she wanted to move back to the area. We actually got divorced, and she moved back to the area. And, you know, being a police officer and having small kids and being so far away from them, I miss my kids. I love the job. I figured I could be a police officer anywhere, and I started to look in Connecticut, and I found New Haven. And New Haven had a bunch of things I was interested in: walking beats, community policing ideas. Um, and also, to be honest, you could retire after 15 years. Now, being someone that already did 10 years, I'm like, oh, that's kind of attractive as well. So, I transferred to New Haven. I also knew, um, at the time I was working East Providence, DEA for the DEA in East Providence, and I met Dean Esterman at the time, and Chief Festerman told me, oh, you gotta, if you go to Connecticut, you gotta go to New Haven. You would love New Haven. So, I applied and got hired. Went through a smaller academy. Started out in a walking beat. This was also in 2007 when we had the issue with the narcotics units. And most of my time in Rhode Island was in plain clothes, narcotics, gangs, those types of cases. So, when I came here and they had the problem, and a lot of people left or got arrested, they put me right into Connecticut Statewide Narcotics within a year. Um, which I was actually upset about because I loved my walking beat. I was in the Hill on a walking beat. I loved it. As a matter of fact, one of the women I got to know very well, Tracy Suggs, came and spoke at my hearing the other night. We built relationships out there in the Hill, and that I still have today. And, um, you know, like I said in the meeting, my life as a police officer totally changed because it was no longer about arresting people. It was about meeting people and greeting people and solving problems, neighborhood problems, and I just love that concept. And, um, but New Haven was hurting for plain clothes, um, experience, and, and I went right into that field. Then I worked for the FBI Safe Streets Gang Task Force, did a lot of large cases related to, um, homicides and shootings. Um, but got to know people in the community because of whether they had a death of a family member, they were shot, they needed some kind of help. So, still kept that community policing bond. Um, then I made sergeant in 2013, and I thought, oh, I get to go back to the street. And I kind of wanted that in uniform. And they said, no, you're going to start a criminal intel unit, and we're going to start this whole thing, Project Longevity. And it's, you know, what I'll say now so I don't forget is Project Longevity to me is community policing at the highest level of offender because they're community members too, right? And I was told, you're going to call people in, warn them that, hey, if you don't put the guns down, we're going to come after you. But if you put the guns down, we have jobs for you and services and money. And I got hooked up with Stacy Spell, who's just an incredible community member, retired homicide detective, and we just started this journey up until last week when he retired. Um, that is just another change in my life of policing.
Right. Let me, let me go back a little bit. You, uh, earlier said that you grew up in a, in a high-crime neighborhood in, uh, Middletown, Rhode Island, and, um, and then you said, um, almost shortly after that, that you always wanted to be a police officer. And I found a little bit of dissonance in that. So, talk to us about why from a very early age, um, you already knew that you, you were going to become a police officer.
So, I, I grew up in a household with alcoholism, abuse. There were some issues, you know. And when the police arrived as a small kid, I felt safe. Um, my step-parents and other people didn't feel safe because they were probably going to jail. But as a little boy, I felt safe. And I said, I want to do something where I help people and when I show up, people feel safe. Um, and, and moving forward to now, um, that 2013 time, I went to many, um, seminars and, and instructional stuff on Project Longevity with the National Network and Safe Communities. And they teach the social justice angle of, hey, when people show up, when you show up, people don't feel safe. And I, and it blew me away. Now, this is 2013, so I've already been an officer for a long period of time, and I'm like, oh, what do you mean? And I was, bro, it was broken down to me. You know, at the time, they put up a slide, 60% of young black men don't have a father figure at home. And that's from policing. And I was blown away. I was in Long Island, New York, with, uh, former Chief Reyes, Stacy Spell, and, uh, Brett Peterkin. And I raised my hand and I stood up and I said, I didn't sign up for that. Um, so, but I understood it. I totally understood it. So, that's why after those, you know, understanding what policing had done to certain communities, sections of our community, I said, we need to change this. And that's why Project Longevity worked because it was about arresting the fewest number of people and changing the violent crime. Um, and we were able to do that in New Haven for a long period of time.
Uh, you, I, I noted you came in 2007. At that time, I believe Cisco Ortiz was chief of police, and you've been here now for 15 years, which means that you would have worked under, I think, five different chiefs of police. Um, and so Cisco, uh, the guy from Chicago, Steve Lewis, Dominguez, um, and then they were Reyes, yes, Reyes, Campbell, Esterman. It's more like it's closer to nine if you add Stephanie Redding as an, John Galekka as an acting. Yeah, it's like nine. So, you're now fast forward 15 years, you're about to step into the position of chief of police, and you have worked under nine different chiefs of police. Um, talk about, uh, to us about what your takeaways are observing all of these nine different kinds of leadership.
So, I, it always started out well, and everybody had a plan, right? But if you're only here for a year and a half, you can't execute your plan. Um, and when that chief left, people left with him. And I, you know, you're not necessarily worried about the chief, right? Because when I go, when I went to my lineups or I went out to do my search warrants with my narcotics guys, I wasn't worried about who the chief was. I was worried about who my immediate supervisor was. But with chiefs coming and going, those positions change as well. Um, because different people have different opinions and different, um, um, you know, different what they want to do with the police department. So, one of the things I talked about the other night in the Board of Alders is stability. Um, and I know I said 15 years, but my goal is to do at least 20 years. So, I got another five years at least. And my goal is to, I'm going to make assistant chiefs that are going to, um, stay with me, believe in stability. Because see, with stability, we get consistency. And with consistency, there's no complacency. And with complacency, you have the ability to have bad incidents or officers not do what they're supposed to do, and we've seen that, right? So, that's what I want to bring to the table. I want to stay here. You know, I'm of the mantra like, show up. Um, and, you know, you remember when you guys had those community meetings? You know, I was even mad at myself because I think I only went four or five times, and I should have been there more, you know? Um, but it's about showing up for the community, showing up for the officers as well. The officers need a chief that's present, that's here, that's coming in every day, going to meetings, going to homicides, not to, I'm not there to criticize or see if they're doing their job. I'm there to show them that I care too, you know? You, you can, um, you know, there's a corny saying that actually Chief Westerman used to say, um, they, they don't care what you know until they know that you care, right? And that's, so that goes for the community and the cops. And so that's where I feel like that stability piece is something I want to bring to the police department.
Um, you, you talked earlier about your, your, the many roles that you have played in the New Haven Police Department. And I'm going to list them, and then you led the investigative services unit, you played key roles at Project Longevity, you worked in the criminal intelligence unit, the shooting task force, and the narcotics unit. Um, and you also, during your testimony and in, and in the past, have both talked about and shown proof, right, by acting that you believe in what many of us call community policing, and that you describe, I believe, as something that requires legitimacy and accountability. So, talk to us about what your vision is of the police department and what, and, and how this is going to show up in your top three priorities. So, fast forward to you, let's assume you're going to get voted on. What are the three things that you're going to do? The top three things that are going to show the community of New Haven that you are all about community policing. And I don't want to put words in your mouth, but reading carefully and looking at your slideshow, to me, what are you talking about is what we know in New Haven is community policing.
Yeah, and I think, you know, the thing I love about New Haven is I came from a department that had a community policing unit. There's four people and a sergeant. The concept in New Haven has always been, everybody is a community police officer. Meaning, everybody engages with the community from the chief down to the animal control guy, right? So, we, um, the things I said in the, in the, uh, my, my top three priorities would be transparency and accountability. Of the first two, and what I talked about is trust and consent. Where this is what I learned from the National Network and brought through academy classes with Stacy Spell and to in-service training. We need, as the police, the consent of the community to police them effectively. So, if the community doesn't want us, they're not going to adhere to the law. They're not going to do what we ask them to do. We're going to have bad outcomes. So, we need to get that trust and consent to actually police effectively. And we've seen in the last few years, our lower homicide solvability, that all comes from trust and consent, right? We need to gain that trust, gain that consent. So, then when something happens, people call us or they come forward and they say, hey, um, you know, I saw this or I saw this car. All right? And then we put the pieces together. So, um, and, and the other thing that you mentioned that I love, and I've loved since 2013 when I saw it because I didn't see this until 2013 at all, the legitimacy and procedural justice piece. I'm sorry, it was like 2015. I think that's when it really became popular. And I, and I really do believe, Tracy Meares, on a police commissioner, created some of this stuff, and we talk about it often. And I've asked her to kind of help me put together this, um, procedural justice front so that, you know, not only do I want this for our command staff and our officers, but then our officers definitely with the community. And, and all it says is the way you gain that legitimacy is you give everyone a voice, right? Give everyone a voice. So, when you show up on the scene, listen to everybody. Um, treatment with dignity. Treat people with dignity. Now, does that sound hard? No. But the old trainings of policing is, go in there and take control, right? Take control. Check people. Officer safety. And I still want the cops to be safe. But when they come in to every situation, I want them to give everyone a voice, treatment with dignity. Um, neutrality in decision-making. People feel like the cops just take somebody's side or another person's side. You know, you have to be neutral. You have to take both stories and be neutral. And then the third thing is just overall building trust. I mean, the fourth thing. So, if you took every situation the police are encountered and applied those principles, your outcomes with the community would be so much better. That trust would be built, and then we would solve more homicides. And then the thing I love the most about legitimacy is, and there's data that backs us up, and Tracey Meares is the best. She tells me this all the time. Um, when the community has feels that the police are legitimate and they're good people and they're doing the right job and they're doing it for the best for the community, people actually adhere to the law. So, there's less crime, right? And I think we were going through that, um, in coming into this winter, I mean, into this, uh, spring, where we saw, like last year this time, we had 16 homicides. We only have five. Our shootings are down by 10. Our homicides are down by, um, 11. You know, we were starting to see that turnaround. And, um, but, you know, the new events of light, you know, we need it even more, right? And, um, you know, I'm even thinking of putting legitimacy and prejudice, procedural justice, excuse me, on a card and we carry it around. And, you know, if you have to remember what you need to do, you just look at this. Give everyone a voice. You know?
So, Chief, part of what I see, um, is a challenge, and this is from somebody on the outside, is, um, really making sure that, uh, a large police department adopts that. How do you turn the New Haven Police Department around? And what are the things that you plan to do to make sure, because what I, what I hear from friends who are in law enforcement, including in New Haven, is that sometimes there is a disconnect between the chief's view and what he, she, or they just, you know, tout, and what is actually happening in the rank and file. So, how do you make sure that that vision of yours of community policing really makes its way through every single layer of the New Haven Police Department?
Well, that becomes, that's part of leadership. So, we're talking about different issues, and training's a big issue, right? You have to make sure you're training properly. And there's trainings that weren't being done that I'm going to have done, right? Related to legitimacy, procedural justice, social justice. Um, but also the leadership has to buy in. And I've had some discussions. You know, I, I won't have that big discussion until after the vote. But hey, if you're not going to buy into this, retire. Because I don't want you here, you know? If you thought, if you think we don't need procedural justice or legitimacy, then you gotta go. You know, thank you for your service. Um, and then we go out as the leadership, and we hit the streets with the cops. I'm a big, I go to a lot of lineups. I go to a lot of car stops, like I said, not to look over their shoulder, but just to show them I'm here now. You know, the chief being present, the captains, the commanders being out there with the troops, that pays dividends. You know, when I was in patrol, which wasn't very long, I'll be honest, I never saw those chiefs in lineups. Never saw him there, you know? Um, and maybe you would say, well, you're the chief, you don't have to be there. But in times like this, we have to be there. We have to be there for support, and then also for messaging. You know, I've been down the lineups, um, related to when I was first, uh, confirmed, you know, that the mayor said he was putting me up. And my message was, legitimacy and procedural justice. If I get this job, this is what we're doing. And you may all think you're doing it, but you have to do it all the time because that one time that you don't do it is going to lose trust with the community for all the officers.
One of the things that folks six months ago expressed concerns about was what they perceived was a lack of diversity in the ranks of the police department. And, and I know you have said it publicly, and I just want to, um, ask you about it on this show. You have very unapologetically, um, said, I am going to have diversity at the highest levels of the New Haven Police Department. Talk to us about why that's important for you.
So, when you ask me the three things, I said transparency and accountability. My next one would have been diversity. Um, and diversity is, and I've spoken, when I became an assistant chief, I spoke to the Guardians and the Hispanic Officers Association and said, do you guys feel like you have a fair shake? And some of them said, yeah, and some said, no. You know, sometimes we don't put in for promotions because we just feel like we're going to be passed over anyways. And people can't feel that way. We need to feel as an organization as a whole. And sometimes that takes progressive, even, I would say, you know, courageous moves by the chief to say, I'm going to make this sergeant an assistant chief. I'm going to make this lieutenant an assistant chief and jump people. And because they're the right person, I'm not going to, you know, and I'm not going to violate civil service rules, but sometimes you have to be bold and make decisions. So, a large, so we're 50% women and minority, and we're 50% white male. And if we continue, um, the hiring that we just had, about 33 people, 70% were, um, women and minority, which we're very proud of. But we have to also show them, listen, you belong in this police department. We want you in this police department. And, um, my, um, my officer in charge of detectives, a year and a half ago, we were having a test for detectives. He's an African-American male, good guy. Um, him and I went out and kind of did like a promotional thing to promote the promotion, right? And we went to every officer we could think of, but especially there were minority and women officers, and said, you'd make great detectives. We need you up there, blah, blah. And, you know what the result was? Six of the first 10 were minority and women. So, it's not a difficult task. You just have to make the mindset to do it. Um, and there's a lot of different opportunities for, uh, diversity coming up, and you're going to see my command side, and that may be making a district manager, a sergeant. You know, we've had that in the past, we can do that again if it's the right person. And, you know, I know I have a minority female that's just amazing in a certain area, and I'm going to make her a DM. I don't want to talk about it yet because I don't have the job. But what is DM? District manager. Oh, district management. Yeah. And, and those are the things that they might not be popular decisions, right? But they're, they need to be done. And I feel like this police department is at a crossroads where it needs to be done.
You're inheriting what some would describe as a bit of a hot mess in certain respects in the police department. The suspension of Jasmine Sanders, the incident with Sergeant Kendall, and most recently, the horrifying incident captured on video of Randy Cox being dragged into his jail cell by police officers after being thrown head first against the wall of a police car and telling officers he couldn't move. How do you find a way forward?
That's a good question, and it's an important question. And, um, I've been asked that a lot. But the mayor and I were on public radio earlier this morning. And, um, first, I want to say that, um, we hope, uh, for the best for Mr. Cox and his family. I pray for them every day. I've watched the video over and over again, and you know why? Because I don't want to forget it. That's my job as the chief to not forget what happened to Mr. Cox and make sure it never happens again. Um, and, you know, you mentioned like, uh, uh, Sergeant Sanders' suspension and other things. I think what we do is we see how people, we need to uplift people, right? We normally just suspend people and then we move on, right? I want to create a mentorship where Sergeant Sanders, which I know she is, she's working with a lieutenant, she's doing an awesome job, right? It shows it works, you know? Um, there's other people in the police department that we need to do that for, you know? So, um, I believe in having an early warning system for internal affairs where we identify, so it starts with rudeness complaints, and then it may end up like a situation like Mr. Cox. So, we don't want that to happen, right? So, we need to pair officers up with officers that do it right, and officers that we know do it right. We need to teach, learn, mentor, and be on top of them. And by building up that stability in command staff and sticking around for a while, that's how you create that. And, um, and I'm committed. You know, I, I know sometimes my passion is too much, and I, uh, um, and, and this is hard. It's not an easy job. But I am committed to the, to the men and women of the New Haven Police Department, the men and women of the community, to, to write these wrongs and turn this, turn this around. And, and I know we can because we've been there before and turned it around.
Um, I want to just know it and get a reaction from you. Um, you know, six, I alluded again to six months ago, and the, the sentiment from the community about community policing and about leadership at the New Haven Police Department. Um, and one of the, the, the troubling echo chambers that began to be created in New Haven when there was a conversation about the hot, the search for the next police chief was that people of color in New Haven, particularly, didn't want, what they wanted was a police chief who was a person of color. And that this was all about identity politics at its worst. Um, I want to just lift up the, the automatic hearing a few days ago, when I believe 12 people testified in support of you, and the overwhelming majority of them were people of color. And it was gratifying, certainly for me, and I'm not the only one, to be able to put that to rest. Because I think what a lot of us were saying is, we want a new chief who's going to embrace community policing and who's going to care about the people he, she, or they are meant to serve and protect. And so, I just wonder your own reflection. You are a white, as, as the, uh, the millennials would say, you're a white cisgendered male, who has earned a lot of respect and love for people in the community. So, so talk to us about what that felt like for you. And then I have, and then we'll wrap up with my own personal questions.
So, so, um, yeah, it was like, even though we're going through a tough time, it was a culmination of a career of treating people exactly what I just told you. I always give people a voice. I treat them with dignity. And so on. And it was more, it was close to like 17, 20 people. The article had a few less people in it, and most of them were, um, black or brown. And that meant a lot to me in the way of it. I don't see that. I see it as these people needed me, and I stepped up as an officer and as a person, and it was the right thing to do at the right time. And, and I just want to touch on one kid, Curtis Rashford, who came, who was, um, involved in a gang and got in trouble. And, you know, I even took him out for a Sunday and a burger with a couple other probation officers, and we were getting him hooked up with school. Two days later, he shot somebody, and I had to arrest him for it. But I was there when he got out of jail to say, I'm here for you. What do you need? What can I give you? How can I help you stay alive? And he actually said in that hearing that, um, he feels he's alive today because of me. That's powerful. You know, uh, sorry, it's been a long week. But, uh, you know, we have officers that have relationships like that. I want all of our officers to have, to have relationships like that. And I have to be the example. And I feel like Tuesday night was a great example. Um, and, you know, the people of this community, community need us, and the people of this community want us. They want the good ones, and we're going to be the good ones. Um, and that's my commitment to this community. And when an officer treats somebody like the situation with Randy Cox, they're not going to be officers anymore. And we need to make that message. But also say, when you are helping people, well, we're going to reward you for that as officers as well, you know? Um, I love this city. I live in this city. Um, I love being a police officer, and it hurts me to my core to see stuff like that, you know? But it also elevated me just Tuesday night when people came and said what they said. And, you know, somebody said to me, they're like, ah, nobody really knew you. And I'm like, because I'm not doing it for any reason except it's the right thing to do. And those are the people that I'm identifying in this police department, and I'm going to bring on this journey with me as my leaders.
Thank you, Chief. Um, we're coming to the end of the show. I promise we would stick to our time frame. And, um, as is, uh, uh, uh, uh, the practice of my show, we always end, um, uh, with some personal, uh, questions on my part. Um, so, here goes. Uh, if you weren't a, uh, chief of, uh, if you're in a law enforcement officer, what would you be?
Oh, man. Um, a professional baseball player.
Oh, wow. That's kind of cool. Um, if you had to describe yourself using three words, what would they be?
Well, I hope they would be a good dad, because I have two beautiful children. So, dad, leader, and trustworthy.
If they were to make a movie about your life, what would it be about, and which actor would you want to play you?
It would be about law enforcement and, and the history of law enforcement, because even in my career, starting when I began, I saw things I didn't like, and I didn't say anything, you know? Um, and then I had a situation in the middle of my career where I had to testify against another officer and do the right thing, and I did, and it was hard. Um, and now look where we are, you know? Um, so I really understand. So, it would be about law enforcement. And, whoa, actor. I'm not going to let you off the hook on that one. All right. Um, this is going to sound crazy, but Denzel Washington. He's my favorite actor. He's awesome.
And how would you describe New Haven?
Wow. Awesome question. I describe New Haven as a very, um, fun place. A place where people can be whoever they want to be, do whatever they need to do. Um, and I said this years ago on my aunt, who lived in the city, saw it, picked it up in the Independent. And I think New Haven's a place where people who can't take care of themselves can be taken care of and given a chance to to move forward. Um, and I've always believed that, whether it be how we deal with, um, the undocumented community, which, when I came here, I was like, oh, we don't do ICE stuff. No, I love that. I love that. How we do the ID cards. Um, and with Project Longevity, how we try to get people coming out of jail just to get jobs and do things and change their lives around. So, I would say New Haven takes care of people who can't take care of themselves, and that's important to me.
That's beautiful. Our Chief, your, you can get off the hot seat now. Folks, we've come to the end of the show. I thank Chief Jacobson for joining us today. Uh, thank you, Harry, as always, for producing the show. To all of the listeners, please do something for the cause of justice this month. And until the next one, here is wishing you many, many days of sunshine.
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