[music] [music] [music] Hey, hey, [music] hey. [music] >> [music] >> Boys and girls, ladies and gents, welcome to another episode of Clutch Conversations. It's your boy Mike back at you once more again live on a Thursday night. Welcome to the show, man. It's going to be a good one. Uh [snorts] real interesting conversation coming up. Uh this a conversation that you don't really get to hear too often. So, man, definitely uh glad we was able to get this show lined up.

But we're going to get to the show here in just a few minutes. First and foremost, big shout out to my lovely wife, Takar. Make sure y'all show us some love in the comments. You know, Takar holds us down, man. She is the uh heartbeat of the whole operation, man. So, make sure y'all show us some love in the comments. And don't stop there. Also, show the channel some love as well. Hit that like button, hit that subscribe button, and Hulk, smash that notification bell so you can get notifications each and every time we drop a video here on the channel.

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Much appreciation to the sponsors, man. Really appreciate y'all supporting us. Uh y'all definitely, man, show the sponsor some love. Go check them out, man. Pick up some snakes. Do what you got to do. Support the sponsors. Let's see who we got in the chat supporting us tonight. We got the homie Brian 352 in the building. What's good? What's good? Appreciate you coming out. Uh we got the Malice man himself. What's good? What's good? Big shout out to the homie Ash. Hey man, y'all make sure y'all go check him out on Facebook. uh not Facebook but IG man. He uh posted some pictures about the malice stuff and kind of the different expressions of the malice man. So you can see how that granite type gene uh interact uh in these combos and how it express itself man. It's some uh real good stuff out there man. So definitely go check that out. The homie is doing some big things with that malice gene. Big shout out to the homie Matt KMBB Reptiles. What's good? What's good? Double clutch Patreon representer. What's good? What's good Daniel in the building? We got the homie Jeff in the building. What's good? What's good? Double clutch Patreon representer. Herp Collectors Network represent. Appreciate you coming out.

Hey, we going to stop it right there. We going to kick the intro, then we'll be right back with the show.

Baby, baby, won't you listen to me? I [music] got that flavor. I know you're dying to feed. I ain't no [music] dancer, just got some hip in my feet. That's all you end up. [music] Ooh, you bring the light. I got the fuse. You [music] make fire. I'll add the view. Follow me. Just watch the [music] show. Turn the heat up. [music] We know who looking like this. For real. You know who looking like this. We know [music] who looking like this. For real. We know who looking like this. We know who looking like this. For real. We know who looking like this. We know who looking [music] like this. For real. We know who looking like. [laughter] [laughter]

Fellas, fellas, fellas. What's good? What's good? What's good? I didn't want to ruin the surprise, so I didn't say nothing. [laughter] I wanted everybody to be surprised the same way I was. What's good? >> What's up, man? >> What's up, dude? >> Nothing much, man. Nothing much, man. Just uh just grinding, man. Uh getting ready to wrap up work for the for the year. Uh take some time off, you know what I mean? Just kind of chill, get some stuff together, man. Looking forward to it. >> Nice. Nice. You got any big uh Christmas plans? You got holiday plans? >> Nah, nah, man. I'm just chill, man. Get some get caught up on some stuff. I got a bunch of stuff I really kind of been putting off and I'm just take this time to, man, a get some rest, kind of chill, relax, but get caught up on some stuff, too. >> Yeah, I feel you there. >> But yeah, man. Uh, welcome to the show. Welcome to the show, Dorian. Appreciate the surprise, homie. >> Yeah, no problem. [laughter] >> Cool, man. So, uh, >> it just sort of worked out that he come down for the weekend and I was like, "Yo, I got a podcast tonight. >> You're coming on." [laughter] >> Hell yeah. Hell yeah. So, uh, man, wanted to get you on here and, um, talk about the move and whatnot, man. Um, I guess first and foremost, man, kind of let's set the stage for people who might not know. I know everybody who in the live chat right now know, but it might be some people who come through later who don't know. So, kind of explain like what's been going on with you uh over the past few months in terms of like the big move we're getting ready to talk about. >> Really, it's been over the past year. Um we uh applied for a visa to my wife and I applied for a visa to move uh RCR to the US. Um we appro the visa was been approved. Um so over the LA over this summer, it's just been a lot of planning. uh how you know how can I make this this this move as like seamless as possible because there's always a lot of risk right you just never know and uh anyway so about three about a month ago I moved the snakes down about three weeks ago now uh like my myself and my wife came down and we've been here ever since um so we're here moving forward we're here for like the foreseeable future as long as RCR stays is in business. We're here. So, >> nice. Nice. >> Let's hope that's Let's just hope that's a while, right? [laughter] >> Yeah. Hopefully that's for the the foreseeable future. For sure. For sure. So, >> right. That's the idea. Yeah. >> So, you're in like the McDonald area, like in the Atlanta area, uh for those who don't know. So, why that area? >> Uh why that area? Well, that that worked out just really well as well. Uh you know, I've obviously I've known Bob Vu for years. we sort of kind of came up together. We're the same age. Uh he was doing his thing in the States and I was doing my thing in Canada, but we always like knew each other. Um I mean we'd see each other at shows and we always chat quite a bit. And uh I mentioned to him that I was going to move and I was thinking about moving to the States. He's like, "Well, why don't you come to Atlanta?" And I was like, "Well, I never really thought of it. It just wasn't a spot that I had even thought about." And he's like, "Yo, dude, I have like my old house." He he recently moved to his new house and he's like I have my old house which is like fully set up for ball pythons and I was like no [ __ ] that would be really because like otherwise it's like man you got to like buy a house because for if you're going to rent with all these animals like you know especially our collection it's fairly fairly large. Um so you're going to rent with uh that many animals it's just yeah it'd be tough. So, we'd be looking at buying and then um renovating, you know, a house to or or a shop or something to to be able to, you know, accommodate the the collection. And anyway, Bob's place was already like it's literally like I wheeled them off the truck and into the room and plug the racks in. Like it was like little more than that. Look, it was it's not quite that it wasn't quite that simple, but >> as much as you can get, though. >> It's it was as seamless as I could possibly make that trip. Yeah, we went we drove them down. Uh they stayed in the racks. >> Um I rented a a refrigerated truck and had it on heat. Um so I kept them at like 70 75. Um and uh we drove for what 21 hoursish. It's not that long. if you do it in a car, but in a straight truck with the border crossing and US Fish and Wildlife inspection and all the paperwork and the it's like a commercial a commercial clearance invoice, so you need like ACE manifest and like all this stuff to uh to cross the border and uh and yeah, it's uh anyway, we got him down here. That was that part wasn't too bad. And we've been here ever since. So, it's been three weeks now. Uh, still kind of getting the hang of things. You know, I don't really go too far without my GPS on make home. >> Um, I actually had my phone die. Um, you know, about 15 minutes from the house, my phone died and I had to actually go into a Best Buy and charge my phone for 20 minutes. I was like, I can't get home. [laughter] I don't know where to go. That's why I charge my phone to like 20% and then just booked at home and then [laughter] charge. Um, so yeah. No, it uh it's Yeah, it's been good, man. It's been I mean I I I know if there's anyone in here watching that's from up north, I I I've been seeing the temps. I've been seeing the snow. I've been getting all those pictures and I just want to say like I don't miss it at all. >> I don't miss it even one bit, man. So yeah, dude. That's that's the the you know sort of the short version of it. Um I can get into like what you need to do if you were thinking about doing it, but like we need like eight hours to to talk about like all the stuff that you need to do. My best advice is get a lawyer. Let them handle it most of the time. >> Say get a lawyer. Let them handle it. >> Oh, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, just pay the lawyer. Pay the lawyer. Get them all the info. You know, it's not I'll tell you it's not cheap to do. It was uh quite the uh you know undertaking, but we're happy with the decision and I'm happy to be down here just be part of the part of the market in the US, you know. >> So what was involved in the states like like this guy here and he's never been able to see the collection. He's never been able to come see it. So he got to go kind of I gave him 10 minutes in the get the [ __ ] out. You know, no [laughter] But uh but yeah. Yeah, that was that was sort of the that that's the big that's the big news for for this year for me. For sure. >> Oh, for sure. >> For sure. >> For sure. So, um you mentioned some stuff was uh easy like So, talk about some of that stuff like in terms of like what was unexpectedly easy and what was unexpectedly hard about the move. >> Oh man, the logistics was tough. The logistics was tough. timing like uh temperatures on both ends uh when to load the truck versus when you're leaving to time it with your your US Fish and Wildlife inspection appointment because you that's by appointment, not by just you don't just pull up to the border and you're like an appointment. Okay. >> No, they tell you you have to be here at 10:00 a.m. Ours was 10 a.m. And uh so be here for 10 a.m. which means I had to leave our place by like 3:00 a.m. which means I had to load it the night before. But I didn't want them on the truck like all night because it was cold. It was like 32. So I was like, man, my entire collection, all the babies, all my holdbacks for like years are sitting in racks on this truck and it's 32 degrees outside. I'm like, sleep. Yeah, >> you know. Yeah, I'm not sleeping. [laughter] So, yeah, I was I was watching it very carefully. um the the the the refrigerator unit like I was just like every like 20 minutes I just like open the window at my house still you can hear it. Okay, it's still going and uh I just on top of it just watching it pretty carefully. Um so there's that that was that was tricky. Um, >> what's the actual inspection process like? Like when they're what's the actual inspection process like when you get there in Fish and Wildlife? Like I >> pull in. We pull in with the transports like all the big the big truck stuff. Um, you wheel in with the transports. They all have So you have to explain what you're doing to customs. They're going to tell them, "Look, I'm here to see US Fish and Wildlife." They say, "Okay, you're going into secondary. You go Whoops. That's not supposed to happen. I thought I was turned off. Um, you go through You go through uh into a secondary inspection facility. Uh they had us back up to a a loading dock and then I met US Fish and Wildlife there. There's way more to it than just booking your appointment. You need to have a it's called a permit. So the permits that you need your you need an import export license with US Fish and Wildlife. That can take about 60 days to get. Once you have that, then you can apply for a design exemption to designated port permit. Basically with the United States, there are uh designated ports that animals come into. So that's like Atlanta, Miami, Chicago, uh LA, I think New York is likely one, but they're all none of them are border cities. Like they're mostly co coastal because most of the time for this stuff animals fly in >> and so that that's that's no problem. But because to fly all these animals, it would have been a fortune. Uh so then you apply for an exemption to a designated port and they don't give those out very easily. like those ones are a little trickier to get. Um I had to work I have been working with US Fish and Wildlife now for well over a year talking about the move, planning it, how do you want them packaged, all this sort of stuff. And uh so we got the exemption of designated port permit then obviously you need sides. So I need a sites permit but then your sites has to be from me to me. So it's like you have to have a US address in order to do it. So, I didn't have a US address at the time. So, I once I signed the lease, then I had a US address. And so, there's like all these like little things. It's a lot of it I found that was like, you know, what you need to do, but you have to get this p this piece of paper that says you're now you're allowed to get this piece of paper. And then once you have this piece of paper, now you can get this one. And once you have that one, now you can get this one. So, there's a lot of like wait for this paper to come in. Three, four weeks go by. Then, okay, I got it. Now, we apply for this. and then three, four weeks go by and then again and then and it's just there's a lot of that. Um, but all in all, I got to give a huge shout out to uh to US Fish and Wildlife. They they were awesome to work with. I know a lot of people are scared to even talk to us Fish and Wildlife, but they were nothing but awesome to work with. Uh they gave me all the information I needed and they I would say they were very helpful. So, >> are they looking through like each individual rack um once you're there and they're like physically inspecting it? >> So, they had every right to if they wanted to. They for sure I would have pulled every rack off the truck. I had everything labeled by year, sex, uh basically that's all year and sex. Just so they uh because they don't care if it's a you know, super orange dream yellow belly. They care. It's ball python. >> What? What? We [clears throat] got to shut them down. >> [laughter] >> do like. And so once I got to the border, the actually US was it US Customs and Border Protection? The the agent that was with with inspecting our our truck was so like whoa, like what is all this? And I showed them it was snakes. And then I actually like unhooked a rack, spun it around, and then just like handed her a desert ghost, a pastel desert ghost. I was like, "Here." And then she was holding it. And then like there was probably like 20 border guards surrounding the truck like all at the back. And it's like the only time that 20 border guards are around your vehicle and it's like a good thing, right? Normally [laughter] that's it. It was really good. US Fish Wildlife was awesome. Everybody I just did like a genetics class for them basically. Like they looked they looked through things. They walked through with their flashlight and kind of looked and and but they there's nothing to hide, right? I don't have anything to hide. I'm bringing this many ball pythons and this is caging and this is extra bins and this is uh one thing I did have to do is put them all into clear clear tubs. So I bought instead of it this it was cheaper for me to buy uh what I bought 240 of the 55 series polycarbonate tubs from ARS >> because ARS makes a fully transparent tub. I have freedom breed racks, but the tubs are interchangeable. >> And so I put the snakes into that so that you could just like look and see into it. Otherwise, it was uh it was put them into a um into deli cups like like package them like like a international shipment or how you'd ship them across the country. >> Yeah. >> And that would have just been >> Man, it would have been How How many into one of those really big boxes? Like how many adult snakes do you figure you can put? Five. I was being really generous. Six. Like that's a lot. So I'd need like 50 of those big boxes, which is like a lot of box. It's I couldn't even I don't even know. >> A lot of truck space. All that. >> Yeah. I mean, it would still have to go on a truck because there's no way it's going in my pickup truck. >> Yeah. A lot of like when you need more truck space to have that many boxes than you need it for the racks. >> Um well, the racks had to come anyway. So it would have been more it would have been more space. And I had that truck really tightly packed. Um, so I uh honestly right now we're just using those tubs. We're building rodent racks, maternity tubs out of them. >> Oh, nice. >> So, >> we're just using those for for they kind of double purposed. >> Yeah. >> But I figured at least I'll have use for the tubs. But 50 giant shipping boxes, >> I probably don't have too much. I mean, I'll have them forever. I won't ship that many out. [laughter] So, but yeah. No, it worked out great. I'm really happy to be here and yeah, man. Winter here is mild. Like super mild. >> Oh, yeah. It's way It's way different. I mean, I've never been up there, but I've heard the stories. I mean, you told me about um a bunch of them in terms of like how cold it was, and I remember like you had some issues uh not too long ago with with the cold up there. So, yeah. >> Like, what's the temperature at home right now? >> Uh tonight is going to be down six degrees Fahrenheit. >> [laughter] >> It's 10 right now. Overnight it'll be six. Uh Sunday is going to be zero fair. That's fair. That's in Fahrenheit. That's cold. >> So >> I and and honestly like that's what's really spurred the move. That's really like every single snake that I sold was ended up being like an export. And so like if for for some people in the states like if you put yourself into that situation put yourself in that put yourself in those shoes every snake you sell you got to deal with sides and an export and flights and this and that. It's not just like more market shipping and send it out. It's it's a whole another process and it's a it's tiring like I wouldn't have been able to get any snakes out until April likely like but but now I'm like oh we got a break in the weather. Yeah, ship it. You know, I've shipped out 15 snakes since I've been down here and it's been it's everything's been perfect. So yeah, I and I I really really like that. And then like Atlanta, like this area obviously with Bob and Daniel and like a lot of guys in the area. Justin's not too far. I haven't been up to see Justin yet, but um it's like a really nice like community down here. >> Yeah, it's like a it's like a nice vibe down here and it's it's fun. And uh >> yeah, man. It's been it's been fun. We're, you know, when we ship out, Daniel, Bob and I, every every Tuesday we shipping day and then we just pick a new restaurant in Atlanta and just go like every we drop this nice offtheetics and then go go go out and get a new uh you know, we had Mexican the other day and like just like it's just been it's just been fun. It's just a it's a good vibe down there. >> Nice. Nice. Uh what about your your process and whatnot and kind of getting everything set up? I know like for me that was one of the big things when I move my collection. I ain't move it like near as far. Just really kind of getting like a a rhythm and processes down and whatnot. >> Yeah. So that that hasn't changed a whole lot, right? Like they stayed in their slot in the rack and then when they got here we had a group of guys here and everybody helped out and everybody like we've we filled like 200 and something freedom breeder tubs. Why did I do that again? We filled like 200 and something uh freedom breeder tubs with uh with coconut and had like an assembly and we just like swap from the snakes from the clear tub into their their normal tubs. And uh and then honestly like the my my process was just leave everything alone. Like don't bug anything. Let it settle in. It helped that I had to go back. We dropped the snakes off, plugged everything in, got them water on heat. Everything was good. And then we went back to Canada to get our dogs, get my pickup truck, get all that stuff, then came back and it had been about a week of them just being left alone. Offered uh and I went another week. So I went two full weeks and then offered food and had a wicked feeding day. Like a wicked feeding day. And things were eating are are eating really well. Um, and I'm actually really happy with the way things have settled in. I I was pretty nervous about that, you know, like it's your whole season coming up. Like, yeah, there's still lots to be seen. Do they do they produce this coming season? Don't know. But they're locking and snakes that are locking and snakes that are eating. That's good signs. >> Sure. Yeah. >> Yeah. So, really happy with the way things worked out. It was uh definitely stressful, but I'm I'm sleeping easy now. So, [laughter] >> yeah, I can imagine. Um, so yeah. So, you said they locking. So, that was one of the questions I was going to ask you like when you're going to start bear breed, but it sounds like you're already in it. >> I got down and sometimes the best time to to to to breed or to to try to get snakes that are uh not let's say not eating to eat, that sort of thing is after a shakeup. And so like after the shakeup, new environment, new room, new everything, I was just like, "Man, let's see what happens." Boom. Put them in and stuff's locking. So I was like, "All right, let's, you know, we're in December. It's it's it's breeding season." So I uh I just kind of didn't miss a beat. I just kept going. Got them here and uh just just feeding and I got the rats going and everything. You know, we have that's that's getting ramped up now. We're we're we're starting to make progress there. But um yeah, man. It's just been uh just kind of get everything going again. >> You doing ASFs and rats? >> No, no ASF. Just rats. >> No ASF. Okay. Okay. >> But just as just uh just rats. >> Gotcha. >> Yeah. >> Weren't you doing Were you doing ASFs before? >> All as >> Yeah. >> No issues. Everything's easy. Yeah. a couple hold outs here and there, but like now to be fair, I've known about this for over a year. So, I had made the transition onto rats over a year ago. A year ago, I started getting everything back onto rats and all the babies from this year all were started on rats and all, you know, I kind of weaned off ASF and bought rats for the last year. So, um >> you always forget that ASF's illegal in Georgia. >> Yeah, I don't have any. I have dead ones, frozen ones. [laughter] Uh, what was I about to say? Did you have any clutches in the incubator like during the move >> that you had more to hatch? >> Canada. >> I had like 12 more clutches to hatch still. Dad, dad, uh, so Adam, I don't know if you remember Adam. Adam worked for us for probably three or four years. Uh, and then went on to do his own thing and now he's back. He's not back in any official capacity, but he's, uh, he's helping out. He's helping with dad. He's, you know, he's in the he's kind of back in like with RCR, um, coming in on weekends and just helping out, you know, getting babies started and setting clutches up and that sort of thing. So, uh, Dad and Adam have some cool clutches hatching out at home. Um, and then once we get once the weather settles down, I'll have him shift down uh, the rest of those babies. and I actually have about 200 adult females still in Canada that they're going to continue working with. Um, so, uh, yeah, it's a it's actually kind of a neat little scenario. Uh, I've given Adam and dad sort of, uh, sort of like creative freedom. Like before I, you have, you always have a bias when you're breeding, right? Like I'm like, "No, let's make DG puzzles. let's make lace puzzles. Let's make like let's focus on this stuff and make more of it. And Adam may be like, "No, like we should try and do this like hurricane cypress puzzle." And I'd be like, "Ah, no, let's go with let's go with lace," you know, and I would just like override it. Um, so now I I'm able to do that here. I'm able to do what I want to do here. And Adam and dad still have, you know, a 200 Yeah, the stupid camera. still have like still have like a 200 snake collection up in Canada that they are able to breed whatever they want. I I've I've told them like, "Guys, get creative. Like try new stuff. Do do different things. I'll continue doing like what I see and where I want things to go, but it's almost like they just have like, you know, they can do whatever they want and I'm like, "Okay, cool. Bring that stuff in." >> Yeah, that's pretty exciting, though. Yeah, it's I'm excited about that to see what they cook up and then what I cook up and then those collections can swap stuff back and forth so I can ship back to them and they can ship out to me and oh, you guys need a mail for this project? I got one. Here you take this one. I need a mail out of that. Let me send one down. You know, and so it's like having two collections but two different guys working it but under the same business. And yeah, we're I'm excited to see how that all happen how that all works out. >> Yeah, that's dope. I didn't know about that piece. So, Dorian, when you heard that uh Will was moving to the States, like what were your initial reactions? >> Let's do it. [laughter] I was real excited about it. Uh just because like, you know, being in Canada, like me and Will talk just about every day. So, it's like, you know, having him in driving distance and being able to actually come see the collection and hang out and stuff is pretty cool. except, you know, like cuz we usually just get to hang out at Tinley, you know, twice a year. So, it's like now it's just up the street, so it's not too bad. Little six and a half hour drive. No big deal. >> That's not bad at all. >> No. >> Now, as he was saying, he was like, "It's a long drive." And I was like, "Man, I just drove from Canada. Get [laughter] your ass over here." >> Once you do that drive a couple times, I I've done that drive now how many times? uh driven I've driven it I've driven down and back with my truck and a trailer down and back with a 26 foot refrigerated truck and then down. So I've I've done the Toronto to Atlanta corridor a few times now and it's it's it's a full day. It's a long day. >> Five times. Yeah. >> Five five trips. Yeah. >> Two two trips. and then one back down. >> That's a lot of driving. So, were you driving the entire time or did you guys switch up? >> Uh the when we took So, when I when we drove with the trailer, Yeah. I drove the entire way. And then when I drove with the uh 26 foot truck, my uh father-in-law drove. Taylor's my my wife's dad. >> Um he drove because I was like, >> I'll do it. But he's like, no, you got my daughter with you, bro. You [laughter] all right? Yeah, >> good day. Good day dad. >> And then uh and then um I drove all the way back down the truck. Yeah. >> Gotcha. Gotcha. So, >> it's a long drive. It's a long drive, but it's, you know, it's kind of a night. Like it's it's it's like Daniel said, it's the entire thing is on I75. Um, you cross the border from Canada into Detroit and there's literally a sign. It's like I75 South and then my house is off of I75 South. >> So easy drive. >> You get I75 and then just like stay on that for 750 miles like Okay. >> Yeah. >> That's it. >> So, um Siri, I thought at one point you was thinking about vending, but you're not vending now. Is that true, >> Sier? >> Yeah. Uh, undecided. Undecided. I think we event. That's if I can get a table. I have to talk to the guy who runs it and see if there's room for us. But, >> um, >> I think you knew a guy. [laughter] >> I I know a couple guys that are like sort of involved with it. Yeah. Uh, so maybe I can get a little No, I'll go on the wait list if I can, you know. Um, but yeah, I my my plan is I think to bend it. I need to get a banner and all that sort of stuff. I've sort of been like, ah, do I do it? Do I not do it? I don't know. But I think we just say let's do it. This is and this would be our first US show that we actually get to vend uh because I had animals in Tinley the the Tinley show that uh COVID happened and it was canceled >> so I didn't get to vend it. I had them there. I was in the parking lot with >> Wow. >> I didn't get to >> Yeah. Are you planning being any other US shows or you thought about it? Like what's your thoughts or not? >> Yeah, Tinley. Um, yeah, Tinley. Uh, Seir. And I honestly I think that's it. I think I'm gonna van those two. Those are the those are the four shows. I'll do two Sears, two Tinleys, and if you want anything, be up either one of those shows. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Those two good shows. >> Those two good shows to be in. Um, >> those are really good shows. Yeah, I mean I've never been to see her, but I just hear good things from a lot of people and not not from from Bob and Daniel, you know, obviously those are good guys and they're they're putting on a cool show, but uh I hear it from like a lot of other people, not not not the guys so close to it. Guys just been today, guys that, you know, um I I've heard people refer to it as Tiny in the South. Then it's like, okay, that's and you know, I again, I don't uh I've never vented it. I've never been to it, but I'm uh I'm I'm very excited to uh to get that chance to to do that. So, yeah. >> Yeah, it's a dope show. Real dope show. Um I was super impressed with just like the the white glove service like as a vendor. Uh them having people help you load stuff and whatnot. That just made the whole experience uh so much easier. Like the teams uh they were organized. It was good communication. Like it was just like for me it was super dope. Like a really good experience. >> Yeah. I mean, it's a bunch of guys that like that are into reptiles and like have vended shows and have done that thing, right? So they know they know what vendors want. They know like how to when you show up to a show, they know like, oh, what's the first thing you want? You want to get your animals inside. Boom. It happens. you know, and again, I'm just I'm talking through what I what I've heard, not what I've seen, but I I know the way these guys operate, and I'm sure it's a great show. >> Yeah. Yeah. I'm uh what you hear, what you heard is exactly how it was because uh I was there. I've been there, I guess, everyone. Yeah. Every everyone so far. And that's exactly how it was. So, you'll definitely be impressed. You'll enjoy it. >> So, everybody go to see her, man. It's gonna be fun. Yeah, >> you got a bunch of stuff right now. You a bunch of stuff. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I got some. Not a ton. Not a ton, but uh there'll be some good stuff. Can't give it away, right? What's the point of going? If you just see it on Morph Market, what's the point of going? Stop by the table, you'll see. >> Yeah. Yeah. Heck yeah. Um you said something, Dory? >> Nope. Oh, I heard some feedback. Maybe that was in my headphones or whatnot. >> Okay, it sounded like a voice. All right. Hey, we're going to take a real quick commercial break, then we'll be right back. >> [snorts] >> Known for his innovative approach to genetic shed testing and top quality ball pythons, Grey Rider Reptiles also excels in exceptional customer service and responsiveness. With a quick turnaround time, Charlie ensures you get the service you want and need. Visit shedtesting.com to explore his offerings and experience the best in the business. Don't miss out. Head to sharedesting.com today and unlock [music] the power of your breeding projects. [music] Peace and love, family. We invite you into the heart of our serenity. Ancestral [music] royal pythons. At Ancestral Royal Pythons, we're not just breeders. We're nurturers of [music] love and growth. Each of our high-end ball pythons is a tribute [music] to the grandeur of the natural world and our dedication to quality. Reach out today and bring one of our creations [music] into your home. This is Ancestral Royal Pythons. Your journey begins here. [music] Feeling weak. passion. >> Some are born with it, others chase it their whole lives. At MCBR, animals aren't just a business. They're our legacy. [music] Driven by obsession, defined by quality. At MCBR, the [music] passion drives us. The quality defines us. Our motto is simple. Live your dream. For years he worked in silence, shaping projects [music] few could even imagine. A figure once hidden is now stepping into the light. The vault is open. The path is revealed. At the center [music] of it all berry swoop. Elusive propagations from the shadows to [music] the spotlight. The vision is undeniable. Hypo puzzle king.

Big shout out to the sponsors. Big big shout out. Hey. So, what's what's ketchup chips? >> Ketchup chips. It's literally like a Oops. It's like a like chips, but they're >> ketchup flavored. >> They're pretty They're pretty >> Yeah, it's a Canadian thing. >> They're not like >> like They're not that good that they're >> like I don't know. No one No one's gonna miss. All dressed are good. All dressed are good. That's like another Canadian thing. I I got them in uh in Atlanta though. Well, at like a Publix here. >> So, >> Gotcha. Yeah. I saw y'all talking about it in the comments. I was like, "What's ketchup chips? I never heard of that." >> Yeah. Jeremy call them tomato chips. >> Tomato. I saw that. [laughter] >> That [clears throat] tomato.

So obviously most people won't be making a move like quite as big as you, but like what sort of advice do you got for people making like a big move and uh moving the collection? Some things you learn, things you would do different if you had if you had to do it over again, plan B, plan C, like plan it out, you know, uh depending on your situation. Like there's so many variables, right? Like do you are you moving your house and you have to like I have to be out on this day and in this house on this day. Okay. Well, then you're kind of constrained to that exact window of time. Um where I wasn't constrained on when I had to be out. Like I still have the house there. It's we kept the house, everything's fine. So I wasn't um I wasn't like constrained on like, oh, I have to be out of my place in Canada and into this place in Georgia. So it uh that worked out well because I had a bit bit more flexibility. But honestly, plan as best you can and then anticipate anticipate something going wrong because it does. It does. >> What sort of things went wrong with you? What's some other things? >> I almost over I75. >> Say what? >> I legit almost had things all over I75. It would have been a mess. Um, when we left the border, the latch on the back of the truck, like it latched and I was like, "Oh, it's latched." And I threw a lock on it. And then I we drove like we were only five miles. I only went five miles and everything was strapped in. >> Guy like drove by us and was like, "Pull over." And I was like, "Man, what the [ __ ] What's this guy doing?" So we pulled over and I went the latch. There's like a like on a truck there's like these two prongs and the latch goes like through one of them and locks. Well, it went like that and missed the lock. So, it was like it was on top, so it wasn't actually latched. And the back door of the truck up and I walked around to the back and there's just racks and racks and racks of snakes. And I was like, "OH MY GOD, BRO." AND EVERYTHING WAS completely fine. It all worked out. But it's just like [ __ ] that you just you think it's fine and everything looks fine and you're like, you know, and and then it's, you know, something like that happens. Luckily, he waved us out, but >> yeah, that would have been crazy, bro. >> Gone home, man. I just like it just Yeah, it would have been a mess. An absolute mess. Um, >> that would have been on the news. >> Oh, guaranteed. >> Yeah, that would definitely been on the news. Like, >> yeah. Get out of here, bro. Yeah. >> Yeah, that because that would have been 300 things. >> Yeah. Now, they were all ratcheted, ratchet strapped in facing each other so bins couldn't slide open. Like, you have to like plan that. But yeah, dude, it was uh it could have been really bad. It was completely fine. Um >> I'm so glad that didn't happen. I know you are too. >> Me, too, man. It's And it's just like the littlest thing that you just you It's everything's fine. You're like, "Yeah, I've done I've latched that latch 50 times." And that one time it just like you just think it's latched and and then every time after that I'm like, "Is it [ __ ] latched?" Like Yeah. [laughter] >> You got to >> Yeah. Like I was like just tripping out after that. Every 10 minutes I'm like, "You think the door's good? You think the door's good?" Like, "Well, it's locked, right?" I'm like yanking on like, "Yeah, it's locked." And then like 10 minutes I'm like, "Man, you think the door's okay?" Well, like it's just one of those things gets in your own head and you're just like, >> "Yeah, >> when you leave the house, well, you didn't have that issue, but when I leave the house, I freak out. My door's locked." >> Yeah. Just open my door. Do I have You don't want You don't know where your phone is. You're like, "Where's my phone?" Oh, [ __ ] Where's my phone? It's It's that like thing in your head that just keeps running over and over again like, "Is it everything okay? Is everything okay?" >> Exactly. >> And it was all it was all okay. It's uh we moved uh 357 snakes and lost zero animals. So, every single animal made it. Every single animal is doing completely fine. Um and I have managed to get a meal into every single every single animal that's come down. So, which is which is crazy because some of the animals that COME DOWN PRIOR TO HADN'T eaten for three months, you know, just after they've laid and all the whole thing. Um, like some of the adult females, some of the females that were giving me the most pain in the ass at home are now like pounding

Food, just to switch and just throw in and boom. I'm just like, "Oh, yeah." Just like you were saying earlier, uh, just kind of changing something up, just kind of like completely changing up the environment, changing something like that help a lot.

Uh, I mean, I do that here even like just moving them to a different spot on the rack. That'll help sometimes. It's amazing how kind of getting them out of that like that thought loop or that thought cycle or whatever had them locked into doing whatever they're doing. It's amazing how just kind of changing something up just help them snap right out of it.

Yeah. Yeah. No, it's uh it could have been it could have been bad, but you just again these are things that you like literally can't plan for. And so you just have to have that kind of I'm going to go with it. I'm gonna go with the flow. I plan it as best as best you can and then just account for something somewhere to go wrong. You know, in fact, on the way down, not with the snakes, but when I was bringing the trailer down, I blew a tire on my trailer.

Oh, wow.

And like just things that you don't account for. you're just like, "Oh [ __ ] now I have to go, you know, call a spot and get a spare tire and then change the tire on the side of the road and go go get another spare and get it fixed." And like there's just a lot of stuff like that that you just don't think about, but [snorts] is a big deal if it if you're hauling your snakes and you blow a tire and it's, you know, 32 degrees outside, that's a big deal.

Yeah. Oh, and then I also had to like think about if we moved in the earlier in the year, it could be good temperatures where I'm I am but way too hot in Atlanta in the back of Cupid. Then you have to have like the cooling on. You'd have to like switch from heat to cooling midway through the trip and like kind of plan where you going to hit that sweet spot. And that's Yeah, plan it out. Plan it out the best you can. And uh if you got homies, use them. You know, the guys here were awesome. They had we had like a crew of guys here ready to help unload everything and just Yeah, it just huge shout out to them because I couldn't like doing it myself would have been a lot more work. They they were a huge huge help.

Hell yeah. Hell yeah. Yeah. It's good to have a network and people you can rely on.

For sure. For sure. So spacewise, you working with like about the same space you working in before. A little bit bigger, a little bit less.

I was in like

Yeah, way more, dude.

I was in thousand square feet. Yeah, about a thousand square feet in my old shop.

Okay.

And I'm in pro like probably more than double that now.

Oh, nice.

So got quite a bit of space. Yeah. Now, I don't want to fill it up. Just to be totally say no.

Yeah, I've done that before, man. I like move into a new building and just like just it blows blows out of control. I don't want to

before you know it. You just look up and boom, you're out of space.

It does. You're just like, I'll keep this and I'll keep that and I'll keep this. I have all the space in the world. And then three years go by, you're like, oh [ __ ] I need a lot more.

But no, it's a it's it's it's lots of space. I want to stop like again this is a big bigish collection but I want to stop at around 350 adults.

Okay,

which is still a lot but still a lot for for most people that would be crazy. But uh that's a I think that is a Now I say 350 adults that's including um males. So you probably have 80 males in that group. Um, so yeah, like like 270, 250, 275, something like that in that range of females that could potentially produce each year. [snorts] And I mean, with that, you could do 150 clutch range, I would say, fairly easily. I don't like try to breed all of it every year, right? I don't I don't breed all of it every year. So, it's um you know, I think where I'd like to be is around that 100 clutch range.

Gotcha.

It is. I saw Beast Forge just it is a lot. Um, it is a lot for one person to maintain. Although, when it's your full-time job, like I I hear guys say like, "Oh, I'm so busy." And all this stuff. When it's your full-time job, like h it's not that bad. Like if you put in a solid 40 hours a week into your full-time job, it's easily doable. Rodents, snakes, babies, videos, like you talking to people, you know, you've got eight hours five times a day. Like it's when people get lazy for lack of a better words, when you get lazy then and and it gets like if you let chores slip for for a week, h next week I'll do it. H next week I'll do it. And then it all builds up at once and you're like, "Now I have to clean 350 tubs in a deep clean."

Yeah. Now

that'll be a lot of work.

Just on it. Every week you have your set of chores. It's It's quite manageable work.

Yeah. It's It's

over your head is when babies start hatching. You hatch 600 babies and you're like, "Oh,

Yeah. Okay.

Yeah. Oh, they do.

I'm gonna I'm gonna be working a little overtime until these are gone, you know." Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. That is a balancing net when you got to manage like working and doing it. So you got to like take all that kind of stuff in consideration, especially like coming and stuff,

you know? It's work that I like doing.

So like, yeah, it's a lot of work, but like it's a lot of work, but at the same time, like go tell me go go talk to a roofer and be like, "Oh, yeah, I'm so I work so hard cleaning all these snakes." Like, dude, I'm caring. [laughter] You know what I mean? It's not that bad when you really compare to like some of the trades guys, some of the, you know, I couldn't imagine the the mental capacity like a teacher needs, you know, dealing with kids like that all day.

That's crazy. I can do it, bro.

Especially not with today's kids.

Oh yeah, man. I leave me in the snake room, I'll make sure everything's clean. But put me in a classroom, I'm [laughter] have a migraine in day in seconds, you know? or put me a day on a job site carrying shingles up the roof. Like, no, dude. That's no way. And then those guys are just like, you know, chug a monster and off the next job. [laughter] Like, oh yeah, I'll clean snakes all day long instead of instead of that. And cleaning day's kind of become like a bit of a I used to rush through it. I used to be like, I just want to be done with it. And you like I've slowed down a bit and been like I want to I I I value cleaning day because it's a day I get to like take the snake out, look at it, everything's good. Check its mouth, check this, check, you know, you know, just just make sure everything's good with them and uh and get kind of appreciate them. You know, I always clean a couple days after I feed because they're going to clean themselves out. And you just kind of get like, you know, you just get to see like, oh, this girl's getting bigger. This girl's Oh, she just shed. She looks amazing right now. You know, you just get It's kind of like I like it. It's a It's a fun spot.

So,

absolutely. Absolutely. Is that the um Is that the spot where the water's like coming out the ceiling, too? Like you got like water throughout. That's pretty dope setup.

Oh, it's great.

Yeah. Well, well thought through. The uh he he does have the white epoxy floors. So, I heard you're not like you're not a big breeder unless you have white foxy floors. So,

now you got it, bro.

So, now Yeah, I made it. You know, mom, you made it. But, uh, it's the one thing with the white floor, span, is like it my OCD goes nuts because like one piece of coconut hits the floor, it's like, there it is. I see it. And I'm got this broom and I'm like sweeping around the floor [laughter] like I was like, white floors, bro. Yeah. I spilled some coffee. I was like, "God, I gota get out of now." It's just like you see it instantly.

Um,

so but also it's a good thing because it makes you like keep your [ __ ] clean. So

yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

But I I I love it. Beautiful home, beautiful shop. I, you know, a lot more space than I've ever had. And uh the flow of the room is nice. It's Yeah, it's going to work out just fine. And you brought all your other animals, too?

Uh, not yet. Not yet. Like the tree bonders and all that sort of stuff. No, they're still they're still looking at that was just one of those things I was like, man, I

I don't want to bring those and be like in a panic for bugs and in a panic for misting systems and a panic for light bulbs and like I've already like in over my head moving the collection and it was just like let me get the at the end of the day RCR is ball pythons. the tree monitors are fun and let me get what the business needs to keep its lights on and keep things going. Let's get that taken care of and then once I feel like comfortable and everything's good, then we'll talk about, you know, getting some cages in. I'll get them pre-repped here and then ship monitors down. But

yeah, made the main thing the main thing kind of thing. Everything settled and and dialed to the new room. You have little things, right? you're like, "Oh, that's a little bit of a cold spot over there or here and there." And just figuring out the room. Um, although Bob had it pretty dialed in anyway. So, it was easy to just be like, "Yeah, set it to set the a the heating system or the AC to like this specific temp, it'll hold the room at 80." You know, if you have this one at this one, so he he knew, which was really nice. I don't have to go through that like, "Oh, I had it set too high and the room's at 84, and oh, I had it set too cold and the room's at 76." I'm trying to find that like sweet spot, so he uh he knew uh yeah, I actually do have the the monitors breeding. We hatched a a blue tree monitor. Um, so

yeah, hatched a baby blue tree. It's pretty cool. One of one of the cooler uh reptile keeping experiences. Um, I was like, "Yeah, that's pretty cool." And then we had a DJ Clown Pod and I was like, "Man, that's pretty cool, too." [laughter]

Man, I just missed on DJ Clown Pod, man. I was kind of bummed about it. like it it I was

yeah I was bummed about about missing but I was stoked about like a lot of other things because it was my first uh holdback to hold back clutch. So uh I made the male and I made the female and then produce a clutch from him and it was a inchie clown pod head DG to a leopard yellow belly clown pod head DG. So I just thought man one and four to hit

and four you missed.

I missed bro. I had five chances missed. Damn, dude. I had six.

Crazy, bro. [laughter]

Yeah, I hit two of them. I had the same odds, one and four. I did DG Pi hat clown to clown pi hat DG

and I two

and I hit two uh DG pi hat clowns in there.

That's I was just about to say and Matt hit the uh Leo DG clown powder one and 64. I'm telling you, I have to make my odds one in four, one in eight to make any progress because I can't hit those one in 64 odds ever. And if I do, it's like a super pastel, super fire, ivory, like some [ __ ] that no one cares about, right? Just like, ah, man. But the the good ones I never seem to hit. I SAY THAT I GOT I MEAN, I'VE HIT PLENTY OF REALLY GOOD ODDS, RIGHT? It's but it's just like you want to hit on everything. Obviously, obviously everybody, but there are certain clutches where you're like, man, [snorts]

if I could pull some good odds out of my ass, like this is the one I wanted on, you know, and I did say at the beginning of the year, if we could hit a certain hypo clown combo that's head DG in a male, if I could hit that, we'd be uh like I I I wouldn't care about anything else the rest of the season. Just give me that one mail and we got it.

Got it.

We got it. And I just found out it was head DG like what? Last night, two nights ago. So I sent some cheddar Charlie when I got down and it was head DG. I was like, well, holy [ __ ] we got it.

Hell yeah.

Now, now I gota feed that that sucker like every other day.

What was the combo?

So it's a orange dream, yellow belly, red stripe, hurricane hypo clown at DG Mail. Hell yeah. Hell yeah,

guys. I failed. Nice.

Some something right there. [laughter]

Yeah. Like the label is starting to get a little crazy. Yeah.

Yeah. See, Ken hit one and 32. I man

I expected to hit it like one in four chance to hit. I expect hit at least one. Like I know it's on a per egg basis, but still

a bunch of like pides and clown pides and

say again,

did you hit like all the offshoot stuff like clown pie?

It was clown pie to clown pie. It was both hit DG.

So I just had to hit DG. I just had to hit DG

basically. Same like a hit DG to a hit DG. Like you just knew or I just knew one. Pastel, you get six super pastels.

Oh, 100.

Say again.

If you bet a pastel to a pastel,

you get six pastels and they'd be four, too.

Yeah.

Right.

And if you got pinstripe in the pair, it's everything.

Yeah. Those Yeah, some of those, man. I know.

I know. We say that they're like true 50%, but I don't know. I think they're like 80%.

Man, it feels like it feels like it with some of the stuff, though. But yeah, man. I just uh I'll shoot for it again uh this coming season. I didn't have a lot of clutches this season, period. Uh especially like not my best stuff for whatever reason, man. Stuff didn't go for me. So, I'm hoping this year uh is a lot better for me. Uh, but that was one that I was really excited about. Still excited about it because again, it's like some some first for me. I mean, first time I saw a girl I produced on eggs. I forgot to say that part, too. Yeah. So, first

that's a milestone for sure.

Yeah, I was appreciate it. Yeah, I was definitely uh stoked about that piece. Um, so a lot of first a lot of things to be happy about. Uh, but it's just crazy. I missed a triple

tested that much. How many ended up at DG?

I haven't tested like they haven't even had their first shed yet. This is like Yeah,

they're probably shed.

It's all girls and one male. No, they haven't had shed.

Hold on. Hold out. Hold out, bro.

You think so?

Send me pictures. Yeah, send me pictures of the clutch.

Okay. Because man, I'll tell you the two that I hit, I thought I was like, "One is for sure." And then I sent pictures like, "No, no, no." And it shed and I was like, "Yeah, it is." And now now undeniable.

Okay.

Don't don't don't uh because DG can be weird, bro. DG can like in certain combos you can be like, "Nope, it's not DG." And then it sheds and you're like, "Oh [ __ ] yes it is." And then sometimes it's like blatantly obvious as soon as you see it. But there are some where Yeah, I'll bet you I bet he hit one. I'm gonna get

I'll be happy. I'll be stoked.

You got one in there. Let him shout out and then send me some pictures.

Yeah, I'm gonna send you some pics.

All right.

For sure. Yeah, that'll be nice. That'll be a nice little surprise. But I was planning on getting everything uh I was planning on getting everything tested uh just so I know what's hit DG and whatnot. So yeah, it'd be nice if one slip in there. That'll be cool. That' be And then it became like one where it kind of just snuck up on me.

Yeah. Well, you just like all of a sudden we're all shut out. You're like, "Oh, wait a second.

Oh, there's three of them." [laughter]

Yeah. That's a cool I'll be honest, man. I was not like a big like clown pie, DJ Clown Pie. Like I wasn't really like high on the project that much. And then I hatched them and they're like they're nice, man. Like they're they're like you saw them today. Like they they look good. They look really good.

So I'm excited about that project now. And I want to get like

Yeah, I'm on the pad train now, too.

The pie. Yeah. [laughter]

You on the pad train?

Yeah. I just hatched out my first couple of pads um a couple of couple weeks ago and uh there was some really cool pads in there and I was like, "Ah." Because at first I was just like I almost like got rid of the female uh last year. Somebody was interested in her and almost got rid of her but I was like man I've been trying to get a clutch out of this girl for two years. I'm gonna try one more time and she threw me a really really nice pad. I'm like man I bet that looked crazy with DG in it. So was like ah maybe I'll hold on to it.

Yeah.

What was the pair? Um, it was orange dream yellow belly uh clown head pad to a pastel iny leopard yellow belly pad hat clown.

And the nicest snake in that clutch is a pastel.

Yeah,

pastel and pi o yellow belly. Bro, they're so nice.

It's crazy. And it's like there's no breaks in the pattern. It's just straight orange and purple. It's nuts. Yeah. You have to send me a picture of that.

Yeah, I got you. Yeah, it's nice. Yeah, dude. I think DJ DG Clown 5's like a like I honest to God, I wasn't that like hyped up about him. I really wasn't. And I I had seen pictures. They don't photograph particularly well. Like once I saw a morph market, I was like, "Yeah, it's brighter clown pipe." But when when I hatched one and like it shed and like every shed it just getting better and better and better. I was like, "Oh yeah, okay." And now I'm pumped to get aanthic in there. I want to see DJ Asanthic clown pine. Yeah,

that'd be dope. That one this year if we hit We gota come up with a name for it. I don't know what call it. Quadzilla.

That's a good quad. [laughter]

Quadzilla. Go.

Yeah, that's that's catchy.

That's catchy.

Hell yeah. So,

go ahead.

I I think that's gonna be a nice combo. Just I like that.

It sounds pretty.

Yeah. Like it's gonna be like one of those ones where it's like as the like price comes down on them, they're only gonna get so low and then it's just like

bro like move it out of show like

10 15 years from now they're just still flying off.

If you can like put your picture the point where we're at, like obviously it sounds so far in the future, but if you can get to the point where you have like a desert ghostanthic clown pod on a table at a show for a thousand bucks, it's gone. Man, that's a crazy that's like as long as you get like a 50-50 white, it's a good but that's going to be a really really desirable pet animal.

Now, we're a long ways away from that being a thousand bucks on the table,

but when we do get there,

at least six months from that.

How [laughter] do you feel about how do you feel about the pod market right now?

Honestly, I like I've never really hatched that many pods and then every time I hatch them, they sell right away. So I'm like, dude, the best ever. [laughter] Yeah. No, I have this limitations, right? You are removing pattern from the snakes, but you know, there's a lot of like really pretty animals in the in the industry. Some of the ones that are like the most jaw-dropping, I think, spanning the course of ball python history are pies.

Yeah. And

interesting

freely. That's all you got to say, right? When people come over, especially non-snake people, when they come over and you're like, "Yeah, here's a desert ghost clown col." They're like, "Oh, that's really pretty." And then you're like, "Oh, here's an orange dream yellow belly pie." And they're LIKE, "WHAT THE [ __ ] LIKE, LOOK at that." You know, [laughter] clown is way more like genetically impressive than that orange ring yellow belly pie. But they flip out over that.

Yeah. because this crazy

is this even real?

I still think there's lots of room with Pi and I my I have completely changed my tune on it. I was if you go back in other podcasts I was like negative about Pi. I was like I had a bit of a sour taste in my mouth because I had pi in like 13, 14, 15 and really we were making like pastel pides, pewtor pides, black pastel pides and like it was just all high white. Like it just got higher and higher white and you could only hatch so many high white pides until you're like man like I'm done with this [ __ ] gene because like it's just being a white snakes and I didn't have the vision to see the the next steps with pi and then when all the orange dream and all those crazy pie combos came out like 16 17 18 I had kind of like written it off. So I was like I I was a little bit jaded which looking back like that was just me being just you know I got I was just like no refused refused to acknowledge that it's good [laughter] I'm done with that one and uh I got I ended up hatching some out and they were midweight and I grew them up and I finally was just like all right I'll buy a pi double hat DG clown and I got one of those from Justin and he did really well. Uh, so I made DG clown head pides and DG pi head clowns and clown pi head DGs and the whole like all that sort of stuff and uh I kind of like I kind of like uh just sort of got back into it and now I'm really focused on like okay I want 5050 7525 like I don't want the high white stuff. I want that like in between in between like I

you know I I don't want the head and like a little quarter sized piece of pattern. That's that's where I'm like ah

yeah right.

But when you get those like nice 5050

pides50

and especially some of the like some I think some of the dark pod stuff's going to be like banger.

Exactly. Exactly.

Right.

Yeah man. I So I saw Aussy's hurricane OD yellow belly hurricane clown pide and I was like um yep I'm going that way like I was like that's yeah it's like enti almost but like it like sideways pattern it goes like laterally instead of

it just

Yeah. And it just like it was just so nice. I was like okay hurricanes hurricanes a gene I want in there. Um, this year with any luck I'll be shooting for Super Hurricane Desert Ghost Clown Pide. Um,

maybe like fingers crossed obviously.

What's the pair?

Or you got

Hurricane Hurricane Desert Ghost double hat clown pie to a hurricane desert ghost clown hat pie. So it's one and eight plus the hurricane odds. So, one in 32.

One in 32. Yeah.

The super the super triple. Yeah. But can hit one. Can hit one. I'm 32. Why can't I?

Can you can do it, man? [laughter]

You can do it.

So, Dory, man, first time seeing Will's collection. It was It was all right. It was decent.

Yeah, it was decent.

All right. [laughter] It's really cool. I haven't even really gotten to like, you know, I got here, we went and looked in a little bit.

10 minutes 10 minutes in the room showing a couple like

I was literally I thought you were joking about 10 minutes.

No, like he got here like

like Well, the He started at Yeah, we started at 8 and it was 6. We walked downstairs literally while my wife got ready and uh and then she came down. She's like, "Okay, let's go over dinner." and then we left and then came back here and came on the podcast. So, he hasn't like

Gotcha.

I haven't given him the keys to the room yet, you know? I haven't been like, "All right, go ahead."

I was just like, "No, look in this little section of the rack." That's [laughter] all you can.

No,

you got to put his name on Snakes yet, huh?

Not yet. Not yet.

Yeah, that should be that should be pretty fun. Say what?

Oh, yeah. Looking forward to it. [laughter] I told him before I uh let before I came down here, you know that Denzel meme where it's like, "Oh, I'm around the way. I'm leaving him with something." [laughter]

Yeah.

No, he's not. No, he's not.

Yeah, that's right. Yeah, he knows.

No, he is absolutely not.

Yeah, If he wasn't locked up when I went down there, I would talk [laughter] about right then.

[clears throat]

That's crazy. It's crazy, man. Um, I think I told you this before, but Dorian, whenever I first met you, I thought you were from Canada. I don't know why.

Yeah, everybody thinks that. I guess because of the Royal Clutch and Royal Canadian Reptiles. So, anything associated with royal, they think it's from Canada. But, no, I'm not.

That might be And then like I met you through Will's Patreon, too.

Yeah. Yeah. No, I just I just I I lumped you into Canada.

Yep. Nope. From North Carolina.

So,

are you going to Seir?

Yeah, I'll be there.

Okay.

I've been want to go I wanted to go to the last one, but I had some stuff going on at home. Uh, but I'll definitely be at the one in January for sure. And then the the one before that was like on Valentine's Day, so that wasn't a good one with the wife and the daughter at home. So, yeah. So, I had to stay home for that one.

Mike, you uh what what are your plans for Sir? You want to uh I I'll hit you I'll hit you a bathroom. Like I said, if you want to stay another day after the show, swing by.

Okay. Okay. Um, so, I'm supposed to be vending. So, I just have to I just have to bring my stuff with me.

Yeah, that's fine.

Yeah, just

I'll go through it with it. I'll keep [laughter]

cost of admission.

Might have one of these trifectas that's about to pop up. that DG. [laughter] [laughter]

But yeah, man. I'm definitely looking forward to it, man. It's always a fun time.

I'll be around.

Are you gonna try to go to Daytona, too?

Yeah. Yeah, I'd like to. It's I've never been to it. So, now that I'm like what, like five hours away, I'd kind of be an idiot not to go, right? I'm going.

Yeah. That's a good one, too. At the beach, party vibes, all that good stuff.

Yeah. You want to go Daytona?

Yeah,

maybe. I'm gonna drive.

I'll drive.

Have you been? Have you been to Daytona?

I haven't, bro. That's a drive. It's just like when I'm solo in the car, like I can ride with somebody, but like when I'm in the car by myself driving, like I can only take them so much, start dozing off, you know?

How far is your truck uh driving? Uh, I mean to here is six and a half hours. So Daytona that's gonna be that's gonna be a drive

or Raleigh to Daytona.

Well, you just fly here.

Six hours from my place.

That'd be a 12 and a half hour drive for me.

Yeah, fly in on like Wednesday or whatever. Stay the night and then we'll drive Thursday morning.

Yeah.

Be there by noon. Leave six, be there by name. That's that's a late light work.

Yeah, that's

Yeah. Yeah. Daytona is another fun, man. You definitely gotta uh get through there. And they always they keep talking like it's it's about to be the last Daytona, so I don't know what the status of that is going to be, but

I gotta get that.

Yeah, you definitely want to check that out before it is the last one at some point. And they always say that because I guess no one else can get like the license or get the venue that um that he gets. And so once he's once Wayne stops doing it, like that's supposed to be it unless something changes.

Right. Right.

So that's a classic one. Definitely one you got to get to. So um what you focusing on this year? Uh, because we ain't really talked about the season that much. What projects you pushing um hardest?

Oh boy. Okay. Um, what are we focusing on this year? Desert Ghost Aanthic Clown Pie would be a big focus.

Uh, DJ Assanic Clowns, that's obviously it it sort of ties into that. Um, DJ's Anantic Tides, uh, White Lace Puzzle Stuff would be a big one. Um, DG puzzle stuff obviously. Uh, maybe some DG hypo puzzle stuff. Um, but I'm really focusing on like right now I'm really focusing on getting the right genes into DJ Hypo puzzle. So that's a that's a that's a good one for me. Um, next year the DG DJ Hypo Clown will be like a big focus. Um, but this year not so much. Uh, I mean I can make them for sure. We can definitely make them, but I think I'm better suited taking some of those genes and flipping them over into DG hypo hat puzzle because they're they're DG double hypo clowns. Use their jeans to flip into hypo puzzle and DG, you know, hypo puzzle hat. I mean DG hypo hat puzzle stuff. Um, and kind of go from there. Um, what else we

are you working any of the granite uh jeans?

Yeah. Okay.

Yeah. [laughter]

Okay. Okay.

Yeah. I mean, yeah, I got ghis for sure.

Yeah.

GHS.

Yeah.

No, I do I do like I do like uh granite jeans. I think they're cool. Um, I'm just gonna play around with it and see what happens, you know? Play around with them and see what what we can what we can cook up. Um, I saw the, you know, the obviously you saw the news about Cosmos potentially potentially two Gene.

Yeah.

And I' I've seen some like,

you know, people kind of like on both sides of the fence here, like, oh, that's, you know, I would never pay for it now and blah blah blah. And like I I'll be straight up. I don't have Cosmos, so I'm not uh I'm not like defending it one way or another. Um, but I think one of the problems that we're running into now is people think genetics are black and white.

They think like, oh, it's either this or it's that.

And shed shed testing has like obviously made it so that people are like, "This is a clown. This is not a clown. This is a you know, you can this is exactly what you have." But

a lot of the way we talked about stuff before, not to cut you off, but a lot of the ways we talked about stuff before was like oversimplified kind of like bro science.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it is. And like there I understand that like it it's it's like potentially like worrisome, but to me I'm sort of like, man, I think that's kind of exciting. Like

it's

Yeah, it's harder to make, but is that not kind of a good thing? Like that's kind of what we want. We kind of want that. And I know Justin just hashed this out, so I'm not going to repeat a lot of the stuff he said, but like

I think they're genetic like at the end of the day when we don't have tests and we're when you're on the ground floor and you're starting to try and figure out what this gene's capable of and what combos does it work with and then like it is not a uh it is not going to be black and white. there are going to be surprises and like like Justin said like the guys who talk the loudest are the ones who don't have it and it's like yeah I that kind of resonated because it's just sort of like yeah man I mean it's we're working with animals and you think everything's going to be predictable you think everything's going to be like exactly what you you know there's no surprises ever like oh yeah dude

part of what we're doing is like getting to see all this stuff get figured figure it out.

Guys who have done this for a while understand that under understand there's going to be like it's not always as it seems. But it's like even with like the jeans that we have in our collections now when you're looking at like somebody like if you look at somebody's clowns over here and somebody else's clowns over here and the clowns don't look the same. It's like well one of them's got something else but you're not going to be able to you can't pinpoint what that is that's making it. So like once shed testing opens it up be like hey Charlie's like hey this thing has another gene in it. It's like oh well you know this is a her gene it might not be anything game changer but it just makes the snake a little that 10% better.

So I think well I think we're going to be in for a lot of that stuff in the coming years. What do you think?

I agree.

Yeah

I agree. I

did the thing again. I think it does it like based off like

hand.

Yeah,

you can't justiculate at all. It's just got be rigid. [laughter]

So, yeah. I mean, yeah, I agree. Like there are so many like what there's so many genetics in ball pythons that we don't like account for. Like there could be like a even just like a slight 10% color boost that could be a gene on its own,

right?

Not visible to our eye in a clutch of normals. You don't pick it out, but when you layer orange dream on it, boom, it pops a little bit extra, right? And that could be a gene,

but we just don't

look at it,

right? And nobody labels it as anything.

Yeah.

And yeah, I think that's

I I'd say that's pretty common. I I would I don't think that's unheard of at all. Like that's we're we're gonna see lots more of that.

Yeah. Especially like with so much work being done in the shed testing space and technology and kind of all that all those things getting better and then resources getting pumped into it. I feel like we gonna learn a lot over the next several years about about these genetics and kind of like what's going on with these snakes.

For sure.

You talk about granit though. I see uh I see Ash is in the chat here. He's got a nice one.

Yeah,

that mouse

that's I got my eye on that stuff. That's impressive. [laughter]

I've been I've been talking to him for a while and I was like, man, you're all you got something there. Like he's got something there for sure.

Yeah. Yeah. Did you see his post uh he made either was it today or was it yesterday? sometime this week. But, uh, the post he made where he was showing the different expressions of the malice and kind of how they look different.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

It's like, man, that's something that has to get done. You gotta do that homework and that leg work and like, oh, these are all the same gene, but they express slightly differently. And there's so many examples of that. Like, you can look at like hurricane for an example. You can get hurricanes that are like perfect swirls. You can get hurricanes that don't have swirls at all, but are double dots. You can get hurricanes that just have like the Yeah, exactly. Like there's all of those will test hurricane. So we also have to use like shed testing and our eyes, not just shed testing, not just like, well, it's hurricane. It's like, yeah, but it's a good one or is it is it is it the expression that I'm looking for to incorporate in these projects,

right? And like I think we got to be a little more um like I I said it before a bit more like uh understanding rather than just like these are the hot jeans on the market right now. Put them in DG clown. Put them in a DJ's Antic Clown. Like that's sort of what people are doing. Not not everybody obviously not everyone. But I think the more that we learn to understand what are this gene's strengths and what are its weaknesses, what does it work well with and what does it not work well with and work that gene based on its strengths. And so like you can use desert ghost and hypo as an example. Like they're two genes. They're kind of similar in a lot of ways but they're very different in a lot of ways. Hypo, one of its real strength is like popping oranges. Like it really can like bring those saturated oranges in where Desert Ghost's real strength is like contrast. You're going to get that black and white that it has the ability especially with athic to give you that true black to white like ratio. And you we need to like build a combo based on the like that information, right? rather than just like, "Oh, I'll just put these together and something will be cool." That works. Sometimes you throw enough [ __ ] at the wall, something will stick, right? But, you know, if you're a little more like um like direct and calculated about it, I think you can make more um headway in projects. Yeah. Even Pastel. Even Pastel, man. I was telling Dorian, I was like, "Man, all these guys that are like, "Oh, Pastel's dead. pastel [ __ ] It's like, yeah, maybe yours are if you got pastel antie clowns. Yeah, dude. They're probably not the nicest adults, but some of my prettiest adults are pastel combos. Just use those

and you can make pastel a crazy looking jean if used correctly.

Indel cypress lace downstairs. This is one of the prettiest animals I've ever seen.

Pastel cypress lace. Yeah, it's so nice. Like really nice.

Yeah. Oh, she's nice. I didn't show you what

super vanilla pastel puzzle. It's yellow, bro.

Oh, I can imagine.

Yeah, it's nice. It's uh Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, dude. Everyone wants to say they're the same thing. They both are great. They're like peanut butter and jello. Like, exactly. Not I mean, everything that PB and PB and J go really well together. DJ and Hypo really well together.

Really well together. Yeah.

Yeah. But yeah, it's a You know what's nice as adult? Monarchs.

Ultra males are nice.

Yeah, monarchs are really nice adults. [laughter]

Ultra males. Say it with me. [laughter]

But yeah. Yeah, they really are. They really are. I just we we have a running thing where I I make fun of Herbert and he makes fun of me. So,

really pushing my Ultram stuff uh pretty heavy this year. I'm looking forward to it.

Ultram. Yeah.

Do I ship to Canada? Yeah, I can.

Yeah. You know the cost. [laughter]

You paying us now, buddy.

Els Monarch Canadian.

Okay. [laughter]

Yeah. Okay.

I I actually do like Herbert makes some really nice ultram stuff and I've seen some that's like

really really nice. So I'll give I'll give ultra meal flowers. There's the T positive stuff in general. There's some some pretty stink coming out of that line of stuff.

Yeah. And and I like the Monarch stuff too. I'm not gonna lie. We uh we joke about it all the time though. But I I do like it.

I like them both. I really do. I really do. Um,

I don't have them both, but I like them both.

We're fair. I actually have some downstairs that are uh double hat uh ultra male monarch. So, I'm going to put them together.

You are?

Yeah, why not?

Yeah,

I made them.

That' be interesting to see like what they look like.

Probably like a ultramar monarch to be honest. But watch it be like

watch crazy. Yeah. Who knows, right? It's just you never know.

Then you look like a genius. [laughter]

Like, what the [ __ ] is this? Yeah.

Yeah. You I I like that kind of breeding. Like I 90% of people be like, "That's the stupidest pairing ever." And 90% of the time, those people are also correct. Uh, but that 10% of the time where something crazy happens, you know, there's lots of gene interactions where you would not think they were going to be crazy and they are. Look at freeways. Yellow belly and gravel. Put that [ __ ] together or basketball. They look like two yellow bellies. Put them together. Boom. What the hell is that? You know that stuff.

THOSE ARE TWO SIMILAR LOOKING SNAKES. Like very very similar looking snakes.

Yeah. Some comos just

my crazy reaction.

We're going to talk about gravel.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

How how's your gravel stuff doing, man? I know you was working it real hard.

Oh, that's going it's going real good.

You need to post more of that stuff, by the way.

I just was trying to wait to see what I was going to keep and what I'm

holding back. I get a little selfish

when they start popping out the head.

Those super gravel clowns are some of those combos are hot. Really hot. Yeah, I finally got my uh super gravel clown male this year. So, I got all these girls that I've been growing up that I made next year. They're gonna be rocking and rolling. It's gonna be gravel super gravel everywhere. So, it's gonna be super cool.

Yeah. Um, you definitely got to post some of that stuff up.

Yeah, I know. I just I just haven't done it. Um, we we hit a good amount of them this year. I think I I think I hit like six or so this year. Um, so like we're really rocking

super gravel clown combos.

Six super gravel clown combos and then the two adult females. Like my first one that I hatched, I finally got her on a clutch of eggs. So then uh so now the stuff's really starting to roll. So, next year [snorts] we'll have a couple like super gravel females going and then we'll have, you know, a lot of gravel hat

Clowns, uh, that I got growing up, and highway hat clowns and stuff. So, I can run super gravel back to all of that and make some crazy, crazy stuff.

"What, uh, what other jeans you got in there?"

"Um, leopard, spot nose, pastel. The pastels are just insane. And I hatched a a pastel, uh, spot nose, super gravel clown. That thing's nuts. Um, did you sell the Superman?"

"You got Cypress stuff in there too, right? In your gravel clown stuff?"

"No, you haven't joined."

"No. What'd you say in your gravel clown stuff? Like you hit something?"

"Yeah."

"Yeah. I got a, um, she's a leopard spotnose cypress highway clown. She'll be ready to go this year."

"Okay. Um, next year she'll be ready to go next year for sure. Um, so yeah, we'll run a super gravel clown to her and it'll just be a clutch of highways and super gravels. There'll be cypers for spot those and it's going to be pretty cool."

"Heck yeah. Heck yeah. Yeah. All I love that yellow belly complex stuff. Gravel's, uh, and yellow belly. Those the only two you working or you working any of the other ones?"

"Nope. Just those two. And I'm trying to get the yellow belly out."

"Trying to get the yellow belly out?"

"Yeah. I just want just straight gravels. Um, I'll like I've been looking at some of the Spectre stuff."

"Um, and then I'm not opposed to working asphalt. It's just I don't really want to mix them up because I don't want to have to spend all that money on shed. Yeah."

"Like there's nothing wrong with it."

"I just would rather just pick my lane, stay in it. You looking for gravel? I got it. So, yeah, I agree. Spectre is one that people forget about a lot."

"It is. That's it. Spectre's a cool gene."

"Yeah, Spectre is real cool."

"I also think what, uh, Dorian's doing is something that a lot of other people should do is instead of trying to be like a master, like jack of all trades, be master of master of one or two. Uh, like pick a project and especially if you're like a smaller collection, right? Like it's easy to, when you like look at Justin's or Bob's collection, there's hundreds and hundreds of snakes. Sure, you can work a gajillion different projects if you want to. Um, but when most people are confined by confined by space. Oh, this stupid tracking thing, man. So annoying."

"It's cool when you buy it and you're like, 'Oh, it'll just follow me around until it actually starts following you around.' You're like, 'Stop.'"

"Uh, but when you have a big collection, you can work a bunch of stuff, but most people are confined, let's say, a bedroom, maybe maybe a little bit bigger than that, but most people are in a smaller, smaller space. Instead of trying to work like dream skulls and clown pies and, uh, super gravel clowns and DG puzzles and lavender clowns. You're you're doing like a little bit of each one. You're doing them well, but you're not making enough of a of a step in each one. You're getting one, two clutches out of each little project for your 12, 15, 20 clutches a season. Whereas if you were like, 'I'm gonna work three specific projects like Super Gravel Clown, DJ Puzzle, and Lavender Clowns or whatever you pick,' you're now able to be like, 'I'm going to do like seven clutches in Supergra Clown.' And now you're taking like meaningful, excuse me, meaningful steps forward in each project rather than having one or two clutches. You know what I mean?"

"Say, 'I'm going to do hypo clowns' or 'I'm going to do DG clowns' or whatever it is. Two clutches of hypo clowns, great. Nine clutches of hypo clowns, you, you're hitting odds."

"You're hitting enough stuff to also sell and you're actually like taking steps forward in the hypo clown project rather than a lot of smaller breeders always feel like they're spinning their wheels. They're kind of like, 'I I'm right there. I'm making that cool stuff. I'm just not there to sell it. I gotta keep this. I gotta keep this.' It's because they're they're spread out too far. Like pick a project and like one that you just like love and and run that one. Who's Oh, Tom. What's up, Tom? Appreciate it, man. Yeah, I mean Tom's an OG, dude. Tom's been around forever. Way longer than I have. And I I I think it's right. I think I think some of you know, a a smaller collection, you're trying to do seven different double recessives and triple recessives and all this. It's just it's going to be tough. It's going to be tough to to make any meaningful progress in the project. Whereas, if you say, 'I'm going to drop these two and really focus on my super gravel clowns or my hypo puzzles or a line of black pastel,' you know, then you're going to like really, really start to like gain ground and and uh and make a splash in the project. And what ends up happening is you become the guy for that project. It takes a little while, but eventually you become the guy for that project, right? Like if you said, 'Who, if you're going to look for a hypo puzzle right now, where are you going?'"

"Barry Swope right there, right? Barry's got a small collection. He stays in it, but he's done his thing with that. In a couple years, man, you're looking for a super gravel clown. I know where you're going to go right there. You know, like I know that's that's what's coming. And I I think that's a I I think that's a a way to go, you know. I think that's a really uh competitive approach for a smaller breeder confined to space and time. You know, not everybody wants to spend all weekend cleaning snakes. I get it. People got families. People got [ __ ] they want to do, you know."

"Yeah. Yeah, cuz when you have like all those projects and you don't got the numbers, um, to go deep in those projects, you're like a mile long but just a foot deep."

"Also, what happens is you're like, 'Okay, you hit, let's say you have like seven different projects in a, you know, certain smaller, smaller collection and you hit a good, you hit a good male.' Well, okay, now I have to sell this male, but then I sell this male, but I have to buy another male for my other project. And I, and you're always like bouncing from project to project and allocating funds in a certain spot. And you know, not everybody has an, you know, actually I would say most people don't have an unlimited bankroll to just keep buying snakes, whatever they want, right? I wish, wish we did, but, um, but that's not reality."

"But if you stay in that project, your funds always go back into that project. You're always like, 'Okay, I just need to upgrade the genetics here. I just need to upgrade that male.' Rather than, 'I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna put the hypo clown on the back burner because I really need a new male for my lavender clown.' And then once I hit that, my hypo clown and lavender are on the back burner because I need a new male for my dream circle. And it's like it's, yeah, you see what I mean? You're always kind of like, 'Oh, which one's more important?' Whereas if you had two or three projects that you worked really well, and I also recommend projects that merge well. So like if you're going to do like super gravel clown, hypo clown alongside, that's not a bad option because then they can kind of merge together and eventually you go super gravel hypo clown or, you know, whatever you choose. But Mandarin, Mandarin, yeah, Mandarin. There's a test for that now."

"Test? Yeah, it's about to be."

"It's about to get nuts."

"[clears throat] That's be one of the next big stories. Yeah, that's gonna be one of the next big stories."

"Yeah."

"Yeah. So, um, so yeah, I think I think people need to, you know, try and focus a little little more tightly on their projects rather than trying to do everything because it's easy to want to do it all. It's easy, right? We, we, I want to do it all, but I, it has taken me what, damn close to 20 years to like reign myself in and been like, 'No, I'm not working Lavender Clown.' As much as I want to, I see, I see combos. I'm going to throw this [ __ ] webcam out the window. Uh, as much as I want to and I see combos that, uh, I, I really like and I'm like, 'Ah, should I get one of those?' I'm just like, 'No, it doesn't tie into what I'm doing.' Just will admire it from afar. It's great to have a buddy that has really cool ones. I can see them at his place. He can send me pictures of them. I can be hyped for him to hit them. I gotta keep doing what I'm doing."

"Yeah."

"You know."

"Welcome to [snorts] our cut talk."

"Advice you can use. Bros, it's been, uh, good having y'all on the show tonight, man. Definitely, man. Uh, was stoked when I hop on and I see Dorian there too. Like, big surprise, man. So, I appreciate you coming on, man. Been a special guest. Uh, always appreciate y'all having, um, y'all coming on. Always an invitation to come on for sure. Uh, anything you guys want to let people know before we get out of here tonight? Look like, uh, Matt, uh, said he came in at the right time because he needed to hear this. I know we, we've been talking about like his projects and stuff too and him kind of shaving some stuff off and I need to shave some stuff off myself to be honest. Um, it's, it's hard for me to pick which one I want to stop working."

"It's hard."

"And you know what where it gets really tough is like you drop a project and then you see somebody make something really cool in that project. You're like, 'No.' But you have to like just be learn to be like, 'Hype for them and be like, I'll get my chance. I'll make something cool. Let me put my spin on it. Let me cook over here,' you know? And, uh, yeah, I just think it's a, it's one of those things that just don't have to do it all, you know? It's actually, I'm not doing any Super Gravel Clown because he's doing tons of it. You know what I mean? We don't need to, 'Oh, get mine. Don't get his.' No, somebody comes to me for a Super Gra, I'm like, 'Dude, here's his number. Just call him.' You know, we don't have to like be at each other's throats competing for sales and this whole thing. I, you know, people want puzzle stuff, you know, my number, it'll be here, you know, you want super gravel clowns, it'll be there. It's, and if you want hypo pies, they'll be at, or sorry, hypopides, hypo puzzles, they'll be with Barry, you know, it's just kind of as you kind of carve out your little spot and market, stick to it and and that's when you can get creative."

"100%. 100%. Yeah, man."

"So, uh, appreciate everybody sliding through tonight in the live chat, man. The comments been going crazy. Uh, if you hadn't hit that like button, now is a great opportunity to hit that like button. Uh, appreciate everybody who comes through on the replay game. Make sure y'all drop a comment. Let us know, uh, how you like the show. Uh, big shout out to the audio only folks. That's going to do it for tonight. Can you, uh, can y'all hang back for a few minutes?"

"Absolutely."

"Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Uh, that's it for tonight, man. For Clutch Conversations. I'm Mike. It's the homie Dorian, the homie Will, the lovely lady behind the scenes. It's the car. Thank y'all for coming out. Be blessed. Peace."

[music]

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EP192 – Will Moroz: New Country, Still Grinding

Transcription