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For the last couple of years, we've heard a lot about artificial intelligence. It's going to make us more productive, create new industries, change the way we work.
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Singapore is currently one of the world's most AI ready economies.
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But there's another conversation happening much more quietly about the anxiety and insecurity people are feeling.
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So today, we're putting the technology to one side and talking about us. the people. I'm Clarissa [music] Montero and this is Lens on Singapore. Joining me today are two guests who see this transformation from very different perspectives.
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Dr. Christopher Chuk is assistant chairman of the medical board for digital health at the Institute [music] of Mental Health and David Leong is managing director of people worldwide consulting advising organizations as they navigate workforce [music] transformation. Gentlemen, welcome to the show.
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I'd like to start with you, Chris. Singapore is one of the countries best prepared for AI. But are you seeing people who feel unprepared and anxious because of it?
>> There is a certain level of anxiety in the working population because right now the full impact of the AI disruption is not clear yet. But a lot of things have been written in the media about tech companies laying off staff and some of our uh fellow workers have also been impacted in Singapore. We have not seen that many cases uh specifically targeting AI but when we speak to uh our patients they do tell us it's a concern for them.
>> It's the the uncertainty. uh is the uncertainty, the fear of the unknown, what's to come and how they'll be impacted.
>> David, you've been speaking to employers.
>> That's right.
>> What has changed in say the last 12 months?
>> I think it will be the tension that is in the workplace. Um every day, almost every day, you will read about news about retrenchment. the employee at the present moment would feel unsure of how they going to position themselves. AI is very new. So job and career reconstitution is the key in in this current era. But increasingly we are seeing a lot of graduates who are coming up to the workforce finding themselves at a loss because a lot of jobs are now replaced with AI agents. And this kind of happened while they were still in school.
>> That's right. So our university therefore have to look at this very seriously because at in the beginning the the university take a very adverse look at AI says you can't use AI to do this this this this. So there's a very long exclusion list. So I think increasingly university have to take a serious look to see how they can incorporate AI into teaching pedagoguy to make sure that every one of us will be comfortable using AI.
>> It's interesting you said that because I've had a previous conversation where someone was saying it is going to be very crucial for all of us to become AI bilingual which means it needs to be in the schools. Definitely I because I teach a module in N US um in agile leadership. One of the major trust of my uh teaching is to enable students to be agile and responsive to their environment. And now the whole ground beneath us are all changing. So we need to look at how we can teach the student to use AI to do their presentation. But the problem is we put the students in front to do a presentation. Most of them cannot articulate. AI can't articulate for you. You have to do the expression yourself. So in in today's context, education must teach a student to stitch ideas from a different part, synthesize it with AI and then stand up like yourself to be able to present it to persuade people to consume, buy or subscribe and that's the end game.
>> So the human that is the human
>> the human part the human premium part.
>> I'm going to come back to you Chris. No, he's talking about anxiety and uncertainty as well.
>> Yep.
>> So, I'm wondering is what people are are worried about. Are they worrying about losing their job or are they actually worried about whether they'll matter anymore? You know, it's it's a different nuance.
>> I I think AI will impact um the different industries in different ways and it will be uneven and different levels of the organization. I think right now the uh junior jobs are at at risk and maybe the more senior jobs like management may be less at risk because it requires more judgment, more human, less transaction. Um I was just telling my student just now that anything that's man-made, any industry that's man-made is higher at higher risk because AI can replicate some of these more human type processes whereas anything that's more human uh interaction and relational will be less impacted in the in the near term. And even for mental health, uh many of our patients, even though we give them digital tools and uh digital self-help, they still want to talk to us. There's this intrinsic need to relate to a healer.
>> Yes, absolutely. I I don't want an email from my doctor. I want my doctor to tell me, especially if it's not good news.
>> Yes.
>> Face to face. I'm wondering do businesses actually understand business leaders actually understand you know rather than looking at the human aspects of it they're just looking at the numbers and how can I be more productive I don't need 10 people I can have five people and and the rest of it can be AI
>> for for businesses whether is it old time or uh today's context they would always be looking to cut cost in any case right whether is it 10 people doing the job because at At that point in time, you need really 10 people to do the job. But with the today's technology, you can do the job with two people and maybe 15 AI agents, right? AI agents are predictable. They work continuously.
>> Okay. Now, here's what I like to call my Claris coffee question. Everyone assumes AI is mainly threatening, and you've said that to some extent, lower skilled jobs. Is that actually the truth? because of what we've just talked about or are we looking in the wrong place and is I want to add a nuance to that is it really that jobs are threatened at all in terms of humans being threatened or is it just functions the same human just needs to change functions and they're fine or are we actually looking at numbers
>> you ask a very good question the job would seriously be redundant and the role would change. It is not just the numbers coming down that means retrenchment are going up. Um graduate employment will be getting lower because those job can be easily done by AI agent. So for a progressive job seeker they would learn to use the AI tool and make sure that they internalize those skills into their performance of job
>> and become AI bilingual.
>> Yes. I give an example. We used to spend a lot of time in school to tell the student to do projects. They would do PowerPoint. And if you look at students today, they still use PowerPoint. Nothing changed. But today with um notebook LM, you can put in the script, right? The whole presentation is done by AI and they are beautifully constructed. All you need to do is to look at the ideas, the salient points to be able to narrate and persuade people to have a buy in. If you can't present, then that's the end of you. then you don't have the human part at all because all cognitive function can can be done by the computer can be done by EI.
>> One of the um things that has crept into medical practice over the last 20 years is the administrative duties of a doctor. Uh we have insurance forms to fill up uh reports to do KPIs to meet uh and all these things. Uh we we actually welcome AI to help us with all these things. bad.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Because these are not the it's not the practice of medicine. It's the business of medicine.
>> The admin
>> the admin of medicine. And
>> uh when do we have uh AI uh helping us in in this respect is it gives us more time with uh the patient. But essentially it converts our conversations with our patients into uh into text and then it summarizes it for us. We can spend one/ird of our patient time entering information into our computer systems.
>> But if we can give a patient more eye eyeball time, uh more relationship time, I think they'll appreciate it.
>> I I speaking as a patient, I would love it.
>> I would love my doctor looking at me. Yes.
>> Instead of the computer screen when we're discussing a diagnosis or
>> Yeah.
>> or or treatment. But if you are worried um you if you do feel impacted now there's a lot of talk about upskilling reskilling I I'm wondering if that's enough I I'd like to hear both of your perspectives
>> I think um we have a very proactive progressive government who put funds into training job seekers should take this opportunity to go for all kind of training now um AI is not just a tool um it is an error that would change your entire life. I wrote a recent paper and published it and um within it I I define a methodology which I call rewire r e w i r e. So first they have to recognize that um this is a phenomenal right now AI phenomenon. Then we have to engage that phenomenon which is the AI shifted reality. Then we have to weaken the habit that we are currently having, the old way of thinking, the old way of doing work. Then we have to relate.
>> You say we need a reboot.
>> Really need a reboot. That's why it's called rewiring of the mind. And then relate and then you embed it as part of your life because this is going to change the way we lived.
>> Chris,
>> AI is just one of the disruptions we've had over the decades. I I really practiced for three decades and I've seen waves of technology take uh and all this impact
>> I can tell you the last time now now it's AI but 20 years ago it was switching from the overhead projector remember something called the OP
>> I want to say no but yes I do
>> so for the teaching industry it was a switch from the OP to Microsoft Word and PowerPoint and uh the shift from the psycho style machine if you remember that uh into Microsoft Word that period of change uh because they some there will be a portion of people that could not adapt
>> right
>> yeah the English speaking ones did adapt but when you had to start keying in Mandrin using the keystrokes on a computer uh some of them couldn't adapt so no seeing all these things we know that in this AI disruption period there will be some people who can pivot and there will be some uh that who As to exact proportion, we haven't we don't know. But as with um all new things, some people's uh brain can't rewire as quickly as others and they feel that they're just not made for it. And maybe if they cannot find jobs within the industry, uh maybe they should may want to consider switching industries. Um and of course, you will know that uh there are many opportunities in healthcare. It's a growth industry because of our aging population and we need workers in the in healthcare.
>> Now we've as a country and and you've both talked about it in different ways. As a country, we've invested very heavily in preparing the economy for AI. I am asking the both of you from your respective industries and perspectives, do you think we've invested just as much in preparing the people for it? I think we are probably putting a lot of effort into preparing the next generation of of workers and students for the for what they have to face in new in the new world. Um I know in my organization we talk about AI a lot even in healthcare. So in this way we are actually at least in my industry socializing the our staff that AI is going to be part of us even even in healthcare. You you would think that uh it wouldn't touch us so early but uh it already has in many ways. Well, I'm seeing that that you would not be unhappy if your admin work was taken.
>> Certainly, if they can, right?
>> If you can give me something aic that can fill up all the insurance forms, I would love it.
>> What about you, David?
>> Um um for whatever he has mentioned, I I totally agree. The question is for all the time that we save, what do we do with them? So, this is the part where work life balance come into play. We always clamor for work life balance. Way before AI was um popular in 2022 because in my conversation with the press in the newspaper journalists always ask me how do we deal with candidates who come and ask about work life balance even before um they complete the interview. I says if the candidate would ask you about work life balance you better drop them because they are not focused and motivated to work. So AI actually allows you the freer time to do what you want to do. The question is what you going to do after you save all the time in the world?
>> I would be a better golfer.
>> Yep.
>> Yeah.
>> Now [laughter] back to the question when you ask about more senior people like for instance if you would to have come to me to say that David I want to repivot to a job. If I talk to you a few things I would have noticed I noticed that you're a very confident person. You have a very good voice strong mellow and uh you can generate trust with that voice on hearing it. So I would say is that you'll be a very good counselor. You can go and do your masters in counseling within the next 12 months. If you get your master in counseling, you can sit down on a social setting.
>> Go and ask Chris for a job. I think I am very lucky because I speak to gentlemen like yourselves quite often and I get advice like this or guidance like this but there aren't this isn't an an opportunity for everyone and there are people who are very anxious because they're worried that they're seeing restructuring happening in their jobs in their companies for you Chris if someone is is watching this and they are genuinely anxious is because of the uncertainty and it might not have anything to do with not wanting to reskill or maybe not even being able to reskill in in in some situations just it's just uncertainty. What kind of practical advice can you give this individual?
>> I think that to to make an assessment of how their industry or their role in the company uh will be affected by AI. uh I said earlier that different positions in a organization will be impacted uh differently and different industries will be affected uh differently. So if um they can make an assessment or at least a a good guess as to how they'll be impacted then hopefully they can use that information to assuage their anxiety. if they can reach out to friends to just have a chat about it and have a conversation about it. May maybe their friends can give them practical support to tell them that maybe you're overthinking things. Yeah. And uh you should maybe just uh wait and see. But if they see that it's already happening in their industry then may they may want to be more proactive and basically feel that they are in control and have choices to make rather than be uh subject to the whims and fancies of their their organization.
>> If you can see [snorts] uh retrenchment or out uh coming then maybe you may want to think about what's your plan plan B. Don't wait to be told. Start thinking about
>> unless you get a good exit package. Yeah. But still have a plan B.
>> Still have a plan B.
>> David, what about you?
>> Um I think we have to look at it from the perspective of what kind of job we're talking about. Is it um uh white collar job or blue collar job? Um before 2022 when AI became such pervasive force um we are talking about automation and robots replacing blue collar workers right but for blue collar worker job loss today they are at a slower pace than the white collar
>> the white collar workers yeah
>> so it it is an inversion that we have to recognize in today's AI world all white collar job at the analyst level um at the structured task level routine level where they can be codified they are replaced with AI. So it means to say that the people at the white collar job has to elevate themselves to a higher level mean to says they have make decision on contextual basis. Now AI do not have eyes to see right now they only work based on whatever you input into it. Now AI is now restricted. It is like our extended brain.
>> Mhm. If we are all trained to use AI as an extended brain to do our job and we free our time to do more intimate things between human and human, I think that is the kind of work environment we want to be in.
>> I want to be challenged at work and then be challenged on the golf course
>> and then go and get your masters in. [clears throat]
>> This is my Singapore dream
>> and go and get your masters in counseling.
>> And I go get my counseling.
>> All hospitality.
>> All hospitality.
>> Dr. Christopher Chop, David Leong, thank you very much for your sharing. I appreciate it. We've heard it time and time again. AI will change the way we work. It already is. Today's conversation is a reminder that AI may also change how we see ourselves and how that makes us feel. I'm Clarissa Montero. Thank you for watching Lens on Singapore. We'll see you next time. Heat.
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Heat.