Transcription
- Try to have a conversation that's without the-
- Yeah, I can try but he like, but I also feel like, Brock, you do, I feel like I have to fight so hard for like the validity of like my preferences and opinions because you devalue them. So it's just like I'm over here fighting for my life like trying to like-
- Listen, listen. I don't hear it exactly. It sounds to me like you have two different visions of how you want this one bedroom to feel like and look like.
- Yeah, apparently. (dramatic music)
- [Dr. Orna] And how are you two as a couple?
- We're-
- I think we're okay.
- Yeah, we're okay. We just weren't on the best terms when I left.
- Yeah.
- What happened?
- He was with his dad, he gave me a call and he was like, I'm on my way home with my dad. So I head home and no one was home, so I thought that was weird. Maybe they went out to eat or something, which, again, I thought that that was strange that he wouldn't even have called me to invite me or anything. So I went ahead and I ate by myself at home and then he ends up coming home and he's like, "Where's my dad?" And I was like, "Wait, you weren't with your dad?" And he is like, "No", I like went-
- I went to take care of something with the car before I left.
- He kind of like brushed it off, he was like, "Oh, I went to the mechanic." I knew that he had been drinking because I could smell it when he sat down next to me on the couch. He said what he said like, "Oh, I went there to like get my mom's tires rotated and, you know, I just stayed there to hang out" like this and that. I honestly didn't really believe it because why should I. It comes across like, you're hiding something. I just feel like the lack of effort just really shows me how he feels about me and it's not good. And I guess I have to see that because that's really who he is, you know?
- Hm-mm.
- So while he was away, I felt almost like a relief because I feel like I didn't have to worry about anything.
- Your face is saying a lot. What are you feeling when you're hearing Evelyn?
- It's just like, I feel like it's an overreaction. It's my buddy shop, I went there, he was doing me a favor. They had beers in the fridge, he knew I wasn't gonna be here for my birthday. He just said, "Oh, you know, like, hang out for a little bit." It was another, it was nothing, nothing but I get home and it's just immediate attitude. And then listening to her tell you, it's just like, oh, I don't know what he's doing. I don't know what he's doing. Like, why do you automatically assume that I'm doing something to you? She didn't call me, first of all. You know, she could've been like, "Hey, I didn't know where you were, like I didn't know what was going on. Like, I had this plan, like we were gonna do something for dinner." Like, I didn't know what we were doing. Like there's no plan and then I would've apo, it's a miscommunication.
- Why didn't you each call? Why didn't you call and why didn't you call? (Evelyn exhales)
- I just wasn't thinking. I really like didn't expect to be there as long as I was.
- But I'm just curious, why didn't you call?
- [Alan] I just didn't, it was a bad-
- But say, try to think about what was going on inside you.
- I didn't think I was gone for that long or that I needed to.
- Hm-mm. What are you thinking, Evelyn? Why not call or text?
- I guess because I thought he would've been home and then the fact that he wasn't and didn't say anything and I thought that he was with his dad, I was like, okay, they either went out to eat and they didn't invite me, so I'm just gonna do my own thing. And I let them kind of-
- So you started, but you started to go down a certain path of feeling insulted?
- Yeah, I guess, yeah.
- I'm sorry to interject, but like you see like all these things you could've just asked me, you could've just called?
- Like, I don't like to be looking for you. Like, I don't wanna be, oh, well, if you were interested or if you could, you know, if you were concerned then why didn't you just call me? Why do I have to be looking for you to do-
- I'm an adult, if I'm gone for two hours, it doesn't mean I'm off cheating on her and that's the vibe that she gives me. Like, I'm being dishonest or deceitful and it, frankly, it just, it pushes me away. And it's not like, even though we've been doing this and like, I don't feel like anything's changing.
- Hm-mm.
- I feel like things were getting better. Do you feel like you telling me and communicating with me because I feel like we were doing well for a while. Do you feel like that was not working for you? Was that difficult for you?
- Well, let's hear what Alan has to say.
- I did not have a problem with it but it's like the one time I don't, it's like the end of the world.
- But knowing that that's what's gonna happen, I mean we can all predict it already that that's the dynamic. Why go there?
- You mean go down that route?
- Yeah.
- I don't know.
- I don't understand how this is to be so much work, honestly.
- For you mediated?
- Yeah, I mean just going away for the week, why this to be so complicated?
- Because there are four people.
- Yeah, I don't know why I said yes to this.
- Do I say these things?
- What? I said, I don't know why I said yes to this trip, but you right it's-
- Why, but that's normal four people to-
- [Mathew] See I mean I want-
- What's normal?
- I wanna live with my boyfriend, I mean this feels like I don't have my boyfriend anymore. Like I'm-
- [Dr. Orna] Because he's opting out-
- Okay, get back on track and say why you got irritated. Let's get back to the point.
- Because see, because I don't want this to happen.
- You did just say you're opting out but it's, you're putting something in there that Gianni's gonna respond to.
- From the beginning of this conversation I said, you're projecting this, Matthew's not gonna be happy. I've gotta manage Matthew.
- But what are you unhappy now about?
- The whole thing? I'm just not happy now.
- But now you're totally showing up for what Gianni was expecting. How do you want this weekend to look? It's really easy to look at all of it and look for the thing that will trigger your fear or your resentment, or a memory of something in the past that annoyed you. It's very easy to do that but what's available to you are also really good things right there on the table. I see them. So what are you gonna do with that?
- I'm sure he is not gonna...
- He's not gonna?
- He is not gonna go.
- Yeah, you can always bolt and exit and-
- I know.
- Take it the easy way.
- [Dr. Orna] I don't know if it's the easy way.
- It is. It's a much easier way but then I'll get shit for that.
- You should get shit for that.
- I still have to find an excuse to go tomorrow.
- For what?
- For you not coming.
- I'm going.
- Yeah, but I don't want you to come and be like that.
- No, you projected this from the beginning.
- No, no it is not. This is about-
- No, you projected this, Mathew's gonna-
- This is exactly what-
- Gianni? Gianni? Let him be, let him be.
- It's so much. (Gianni cries)
- Oh it's just so hard to manage me.
- It's still lot to deal with, Jesus Christ.
- It's insane.
- I see.
- Why's everything has to be so hard every time. (Gianni cries)
- [Dr. Orna] See.
- This is exactly what I didn't wanted to happen, it's happened.
- Which is?
- This.
- Because you projected it from the beginning.
- Wait, wait.
- Did I project it?
- Yes you did.
- Wait one second.
- And I've been talking for weeks now about how you're not happy in this relationship and here you are. You have to be pushed to the point where you come out with your true feelings.
- [Dr. Orna] Which are?
- Because Matthew it's always, I can't deal with him anymore, his sobriety it's just-
- Because you don't-
- I always have to, you know.
- You don't seem happy, you don't, I don't look at you. You're not happy. It's hard to make you happy.
- Because you are constantly projecting that I am the reason and fault for everything. That you have to walk around on eggshells around Matthew and I can't drink around him at this certain time or he's gonna judge me for this. What do I care if you drink or your friends drink? You're just projecting, projecting, projecting. Matthew's sober, is that so hard? Is that such a bad thing?
- I got for our family, like a calendar, a whiteboard calendar so that we can really keep track because everyone's schedules is getting kind of crazy. And so everyone was, is a color. Okay.
- Nice.
- So I said, "Magnolia, pick your color, Vienna, pick your color." And then I said, "Josh, pick your color, you can be any color." "I don't know, should I be green?"
- This is Josh speaking?
- Yes. "Should I, I don't know, should I be blue? This is hard, it is hard for me to pick a color." And I said, "I just need you to pick a color so that I can do what I need to do for our family." And then he said, "Fine green." And then he excused himself to go downstairs and I went downstairs and I said, "Are you okay?" And he said, "I just needed a moment." (Molly laughs)
- [Dr. Orna] You're laughing?
- It's a fucking dry eraser color.
- Well, I know, I actually think I said I don't care whatever color you want, I think is what I said. And you were like, "No, I want you to choose." And then I was like-
- Because I don't wanna, that's extra work for me that I don't wanna have to do-
- Green or purple I'm thinking, green or purple.
- He should just-
- [Josh] But it's hard to choose between green and purple.
- Why can't you make a choice? (Molly laughs) Why? I mean, look where it got us when you couldn't make a decision about whether we should have a third child or not.
- Can you, I mean we can go back to the markers, but can you fill me in on this?
- We talked about if we should have a third child or not.
- Who was saying what?
- I was saying I wanted to, he was ambivalent but as we've talked about it further was afraid to tell me no or afraid to say we need more time to think about it. He just didn't make a choice.
- Wait, what's, tell me your version of the story?
- Well this is in, this also is when I, this is the, when I first got emotionally involved with this person about eight years ago, I think at that time I was very confused about a lot of things, and I've always worried about keeping you happy. I think probably at the time I knew it was something that was important to you. So it didn't feel like my question mark about it was stronger than how you were feeling.
- The one thing that I have asked for in our marriage that I have said will make me happy is to talk with me about what he wants or what he thinks so that we can do things together. I just want him to include me in his questions. I don't need him to make a decision, I just wanna be included. (Molly cries)
- But what you are asking for happens to be both difficult for Josh but also there's-
- But then he shouldn't have stayed in this marriage in the first place because I've been asking for it from the beginning.
- Right, but the solution to that in your mind is for Josh to-
- I don't know what the solution is. I need to, I want-
- I'm trying to talk to you.
- Okay. Okay.
- So you have a very clear, intense idea about what you need, which is to say you want there not to be kind of a side stream where Josh lives separately, maybe in a somewhat vague state while trying to make you happy, but the solution is not simply getting what you need. The solution has partially to do with you understanding how the intensity of your ask is affecting the field between the two of you.
- But when will it become a conversation of, okay, well, but you have to look at the way that Molly engages in conversation or what she needs, you know, I just feel like... (Molly cries)
- Meaning that you're being asked to adjust to Josh's rhythm.
- Yes.
- [Dr. Orna] But you don't feel like Josh is getting any kind of pressure to adjust to yours.
- Yes. I do not know if Josh feels this feeling that he needs to make changes, and the unfortunate thing is the way that I have chosen to scream and yell at him that he needs to do some fucking work himself has been by having my own relationships with other people. It's like my way of screaming at the top of my lungs.
- But the fact that you think that I haven't done anything and that I haven't done any work or grown at all, first of all like-
- But I have asked repeatedly the same thing and it ha, and every single time you, we, get to sit on a couch and I need to understand who you are and how you're sensitive, and this, and that.
- That's not true and it's not fair statement.
- Can I interrupt because what I feel like I'm doing with the two of you right now is actually putting pressure on Josh to articulate yourself much more clearly and to understand how your thriving by relying on Molly's intensity.
- I guarantee you he does not see it that way and until you just said that he did not realize that you were putting pressure on him to think that. I guarantee you. He is thinking, okay, she understands me. She really sees my authentic self and my authentic self is who I am, and to change that would be unauthentic. It's not like, she's not asking me to look at that and change it. She's really understanding it and now I get to say, see this is who I am. It's hard for me to make choices or blah blah blah blah blah. And I'm not supposed to not be my authentic self. Guarantee it.
- Would you like to respond to that, is that what's going on?
- No. No I, it seemed very clear to me at the beginning that as you were pressuring, asking Molly not to talk and continuing to ask me to go to try and figure out what was going on. Granted this is something that happened eight years ago and since then we've made a lot of tough choices together as a couple, together we've made choices.
- Josh, I was in a relationship for five years with someone else and a year and a half ago, I was in a relationship with an ex-girlfriend. I am still screaming.
- Yeah, but fuck that and fuck that to say that like, I mean the way you're just saying it is like if I had done something, you wouldn't have done those things.
- That's not what I'm saying.
- And that somehow, if I had just gotten it right-
- No, I'm not-
- You wouldn't have done those things, that's exactly what it sounds like.
- It's not about getting it right, there's not a right-
- I'm screaming at you to do what I'm asking you to do. Do it the way I want you to do it-
- What I'm asking you to do?
- Really? This is really an interrogation, is that how we're gonna do it?
- No Josh I'm not-
- Where you're saying where you're leading down the path to into-
- Josh I'm not interrogating-
- The answer that you're hoping for?
- No, I'm not interrogating you, I'm trying to see it-
- [Josh] It feels like it, it feels like it.
- I'm trying to see if you can repeat what I have been asking for years.
- I could've been more present, I could've talked to you more about all the things that I was feeling about the questions I was having.
- So why isn't that happening now?
- It is happening now. It hasn't happened for the past week, but we've been talking so much more deeply about everything for, it is happening. What do you mean it's not happening?
- I am like so bothered right now that you're sitting there like that with this attitude that like, I am being ridiculous and interrogating you when all I am saying to you is I don't think that you have been doing the work that you say you have.
- Okay, we're gonna have to stop because we've run out of time.
- Erica hasn't lost anywhere near as much as I have lost. I have children from a previous marriage that are much older. Their mother and I have a very toxic situation.
- [Dr. Orna] And how often do you see them?
- [Sean] I see them during the summer.
- [Dr. Orna] But not regularly?
- We live in different states.
- That's terrible.
- Yeah. So my focus has not been that of someone who is willing to put my wife, my child, and my other responsibilities second in and my priorities to the pursuit of wealth, the pursuit of financial gain. Because for me, my time and the time that I spend with my child and the time that I spend with my wife is more important to me than working 70 hours a week as you do.
- What's happening to you when you're listening to Sean right now?
- My temperature is actually going up, actually. Like my palms are sweating to be honest with you.
- Because what's happening? Well there's probably a bunch of stuff going on there.
- I'm just disconnecting with this conversation to be honest with you.
- Try to locate what's happening to you, listening to Sean.
- I feel frustrated and I feel like he downplays the true sacrifices that I have been making. Sean, you see how my parents live? I come from shit. So for me to have come out of that, I did have to put a lot of energies and efforts towards being successful, so don't sit there and downplay them. Like it's almost like a pedestal, I hate his pedestal talk. I don't wanna put such an emphasis on working or career accomplishments because I see the greater good in having relationships with people, but that doesn't pay a motherfucking bill. I've had a work God damn hard, Sean, God damn hard. And I feel like he just, he doesn't get it. He doesn't get the level of sacrifice but yet, you know what? He pays me back from the sacrifice. Oh, he has sex with other women on me. Like I don't under, like I am not winning. I'm not winning. (Erica laughs) I'm the one that's getting cheated on, I'm the one that's not able to forge long-term relationships shit. Outside the COVID, I wasn't even having a good relationship with my own daughter. I beat myself up because I deserve better, I want better. Why does Sean beat, why aren't you not beating yourself up to be like, damn it I should be, I should, you know what I should apply for that job? I'm pissed about that I didn't get that opportunity like I want like I just-
- It's not true.
- Maybe that one is both-
- It's not true that?
- It's not true.
- Maybe I want his both of those-
- I just don't share it with her because every loss that I have had that I have shared with you, you've told me all of the ways that I messed up to make that loss happen. Who wants to hear that?
- [Erica] It is a criticism, not a critique, Awardo, we need to help you.
- [Sean] I'm my own biggest critic, I don't need your help in the criticism department. I don't need it.
- We've totally run out of time.
- [Erica] Okay. (Erica laughs)
- We finally got to the good stuff for me.
- We did get to some good stuff. Yes. I think I'm getting closer to where the two of you really live.
- [Erica] Okay.
- So that's good.
- [Erica] Okay.
- So I'm gonna have to let you go and we will continue talking.
- I just come here and realize how little you listen to anything that I say and the fact that you feel like I don't champion in your success.
- We should go back to that, I have some thoughts on that.
- Okay. I need, I want you to champion yourself. That's the problem.
- I do champion myself. You just don't hear me when I say my priorities have been-
- [Erica] I don't think that you think-
- Please remember this, we should go back to that.
- [Erica] I'll, have a good one, thank you. I just don't feel like you-
- [Sean] Your feelings don't have to do with facts. That's the problem. You go with your feelings and your feelings are wrong a lot of the times.
- [Erica] Oh, man. (indistinct chattering)
- We were arguing yesterday because I really wanted a Murphy bed. I want a bed that I can pull down and it's my bed, right?
- But it's still one bedroom, it's still not a ton of space. Like, I don't know if I want a Murphy bed, taking up a quarter of the one living, shared living space. And I was kind of envisioning that like we sleep in the same bed again. Like if you don't wanna live with me, then why are we getting this one bedroom apartment like?
- Well, I do wanna live with you, but I don't really see a problem with having a separate bed space.
- Yeah, I don't know.
- Well, are you open to being flexible on that or is it I can only sign the lease if were-
- No, I just don't think that makes a lot of, I don't know, I just don't, that just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Like, are we coming together or not?
- Are you, can you tell us something about how you're feeling about what Brock is saying? That he's suggesting that you sleep separately? How are you feeling about it?
- I'm feeling sad that like you're not excited. It sounds like this is gonna be like what? You plugging your nose and swallowing this decision down like I didn't think that it would be this like huge negotiation to like sleep in the same fucking bed.
- Well, try, I mean, you're getting mad but you're saying that underneath it sounds like you're hurt.
- Yeah.
- Because you're understanding it as a statement that Brock is?
- I mean it definitely feels like a rejection obviously.
- [Dr. Orna] A rejection of?
- Being with me, loving me, wanting to be in partnership with me.
- I understand that when you interpret something as rejecting, it can make you kind of tight and protective of yourself but I don't know if that's what's going on. So, maybe you can ask openly if that's what it's about.
- I, yeah. Is I know, it feels stupid to even ask because I know you're gonna say that's not what it's about. That you literally, it's so surface level for you that you just wanna sleep in your own space.
- Well, wait, ask.
- Damn girl.
- Okay.
- That's quite an assumption.
- Is that what's it about?
- No, but what it is about is like the last couple years, like I have, I feel like I've grown so much as an individual and I know that you have too in our own spaces. And part of it is me kind of just being afraid of like losing that, and so it's not a rejection of you like, I'm trying to like, I'm really trying to preserve like that part. Does that make sense?
- Yeah, it makes sense, it's what I, yeah. But I'm saying like moving into a one bedroom apartment with me, feels like us both compromising, us both agreeing to give up our individual spaces to come together and it feels like I'm willing to do that, but you are not. And so I'm like here now being like, what gives, I'm just confused.
- Wait, do you feel like you're giving up autonomy too?
- Yes, yes. Willingly.
- But do you, would you like to have that because-
- No, I'm giving some up to move into an apartment with you and it feels like you don't wanna do that same thing.
- Because we don't have to make that sacrifice, so I don't really see it as a sacrifice because it's not something we have to make.
- Oh, my God.
- I don't, I have a really hard time understanding because it's like...
- Well I wish you would've thought of this before we went through-
- I did.
- Hold on a second.
- I did think about it.
- Hold on a second, hold on a second. Kristi, I wanna help you figure this out together but this contempt is defensive. It's not gonna help you. Try to have a conversation without-
- Yeah, I can try, but he like, but I also feel like, Brock, you do, I feel like I have to fight so hard for like the validity of like my preferences and opinions because you devalue them. So it's just like I'm over here fighting for my life like trying to like-
- Listen, listen. I don't hear it exactly, it sounds to me like you have two different visions of how you want this one bedroom to feel like and look like.
- Yeah, apparently.
- But that's this business of difference. What is difficult for you about what Brock is wanting for himself? It's something about the way the apartment will look and maybe something about the meaning of this?
- Yeah, basically... It is just hard to so not see this the same way. I'm thinking of like, the story of our life, as a couple, is in boxes above your bedroom right now. And I was so excited to like finally move into a space where we could bring that down and onto the walls. That's all up in boxes.
- Yeah.
- And so when I looked at that apartment, I was like, here's a space where we can, that can finally feel like home. Like finally feel like home. This is a coming together and it's making a home together, like it's going to feel like our first apartment.
- Do you kind of see it as a restart?
- Kind of.
- Yeah.
- It sounds like if you don't want that again, it feels like you don't want us.
- And now I get it.
- One thing I've learned through a lot of this therapy and a lot of us being here together is I guess I expect more than I'm getting.
- Expect, you're using a very particular word. You're not saying I long for, you're saying I expect, which means that sets up Rod to fail.
- Okay. Okay.
- You expect and then the person fails you. So that's already a dynamic that is toxic for the two of you.
- Because then I get a response-
- But what does you expect if you were expecting, what does you expect?
- I don't know what I want.
- That's important.
- I don't, I'm not sure what I want.
- But you know you're disappointed.
- Because right.
- And none of you even know what's missing.
- Not even close.
- Yeah. You don't know what you want, you don't know what is expected, both of you just know it fails.
- Correct.
- Meaning there's nothing there really, this is like some coverup for something else.
- Yes.
- Okay. But the reason I sometimes choose to avoid these conversations is-
- Yeah.
- Because they're difficult and dare I say anything about finances and that's it. That's-
- But it's not-
- Hold on.
- Okay, sorry.
- There's a lot of pressure on me if you wanted me, I want myself, it's not bad to kind of, you know, be more successful for a second. But when you deliver it with that, you know, jab, it feels ugh.
- It feels what?
- [Rod] It feels-
- Feels what? What does it feel?
- It feels like a jab.
- It feels like... Okay, but doesn't, but I'm asking you nicely.
- But the anger's manifesting right now. I mean, you can't-
- It's not, I'm not Rod, I'm really not.
- Okay.
- Well you sound angry.
- Okay.
- You sound frustrated.
- Because I feel like, okay, okay, because-
- You do not sound like you wanna hear what it feels like.
- I do wanna hear it.
- So just do something with your demeanor that invites that.
- You just witness it, she triggers so quickly and it's like, whoa, it's not, again-
- Well, did you see what I did?
- Yeah, you did, absolutely.
- You can do that.
- We need to tackle our issues.
- What does that mean?
- We need to talk about our finances. We need to get help and figure out what we need to do together.
- Do you wanna try talking about finances?
- Sure.
- Go ahead.
- [Rod] We know the answer.
- Okay.
- We need to make more income that's the answer. We can't cut back on anything because there's not nothing to cut back on. We need to bring in more, there are things you spend on and I don't and it's another X amount here and another X amount there. And just, we don't have conversations about that all of a sudden I see, well, $700 out in the bank. Where'd that go?
- What are you talking about?
- You went to get your eyes tested last couple weeks ago and you spent $700.
- But you know, it's once a year that I go and I get my eyes checked. I'm not gonna justify that.
- Okay.
- I'm not, and this is where I get angry because this is where, like that's the conversation we're having.
- It just came up, it wasn't even, it wasn't conscious I wasn't-
- What conversation do you wanna be having?
- You wanted to talk about money and there's a conversation about money. It just-
- So why didn't you talk to me about it then? Why did you have to wait? Like if there's something bothering you-
- So, if you want Rod to talk to you more, you have to make the conversations inviting.
- Okay.
- If you're gonna keep being angry, you're not gonna have that thing you want.
- What triggered the anger? That effects of wearing those classes.
- Because I've taken a lot of time away to be with our daughter and I don't regret one minute. I'm thrilled that I've been home, but we lost a lot of money when I was home. So now it's like, catch up.
- But it sounds like you're regretful for the last decade.
- And then when he says something like that, I just, I'm not interested to talk to him about it because like, because it is so condescending, you're in a job. So I'm frustrated. (inspiring music)