A Theological History of Twelver Shiism From the Time of the Companions to the Iranian Revolution

Hello everyone, and welcome to Blogging Theology. And today, I'm delighted to welcome back Sheikh Hamza Karamali. You're most welcome, sir.

Salaam, pleasure as always, Paul. Thanks for having me.

It's great to see you again. And Hamza, for those who don't know, is a traditionally trained theologian who specializes in arguments for the existence of God and the truth of Islam. He is the founder of "Why Islam Is True," an online course, a textbook, and a teacher training program that has trained literally hundreds of teachers in 21 different countries. And you can learn about Hamza and his work by visiting his website at www.hamzacaramali.com, and the link is in the description below. Thank you.

Now, as we all know, Iran is much in the news at the moment. But today, Hamza will give an overview of the theological history of 12er Shiism from the time of the companions to the Islamic Revolution in Iran in 1979. He will present this theological history from both the Sunni and the Shiite perspectives and occasionally mention the arguments from both sides. Now, the goal of the presentation is for both Sunnis and Shiites, as well as any casual observers, to understand the theological perspectives of each side to better understand what's happening in the world today. You won't read much about this in the Western press in terms of the theological history of 12er Shiism. A lot of what Hamza will talk about is based on the historical methods of the Muslim scholarly tradition.

Now, he's teaching a course on the foundations and scholarly rigor of the Hadith sciences and the Muslim historical method, as opposed to the Western historical critical method. He'll focus on the differences between the Muslim historical method and the methods of modern secular historians, and will also investigate the differences between the Sunni and Shiite approaches to Hadith. If you'd like to join the course, you can express your interest by clicking on the link in the description below. So, without more ado, over to you, Sheikh Hamza Karamali.

Thank you. Thanks for the intro. Um, so let's get right into it. Um, uh, so we're the topic today is on Sunniism and Shiism. We want to gain a deeper theological understanding, historical as well, of both sides. So if we step back just for a moment and look at the big picture, 90% of Muslims in the world today are Sunni Muslims. Um, about 10% are Shiite. I'm a Sunni Muslim, just, you know, uh, full disclosure. Um, but, uh, I don't, uh, I'm not fond of polemics, and so my goal today is going to be to give a factual, uh, presentation of, um, the historical development of 12er Shiism. I'm going to mention the Sunni perspective on things because it's often not mentioned. Um, so it's a way for everybody to understand, um, where both sides come from and, uh, what their perspectives and arguments are.

So, um, majority of Muslims in the world are Sunni, and majority of Muslim countries are Sunni majority countries. There's three countries in the world that have Shiite majorities, most prominently Iran, uh, which is in the news, as as you mentioned, Paul. Um, and the other two countries are Bahrain and Azerbaijan. Um, there are significant Shiite minorities in these regions, in the surrounding regions. So there's significant Shiite minorities in Kuwait, in Eastern Saudi Arabia, in Pakistan, in Afghanistan, in Lebanon, in Yemen too. But we're going to see that that Shiism in Yemen is actually quite close to Sunniism. It's a different kind of Shiism. Um, so these two terms, Sunni and Shiite. In Arabic, we say for, uh, someone who who who's Shiite, we say, "This is a self-identifying term." So the Shiites, they they self-identify as as Shi'a. It means the supporters of, and it goes back to the supporters of Ali, may Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala be pleased with him. So the, the Shia of Ali, um, and they self-identify with this term. The Sunnis often refer to them negatively as Rafidi, means somebody who rejects. So as those who reject, um, the legitimacy of the caliphate of Abu Bakr and Omar. Uh, so they refer to them as Rafidi. The Shiites don't self-identify using that term. Um, the Sunnis, they self-identify as Ahl al-Sunnah wa al-Jama'ah. So it means the people of Sunnah and Jama'ah means group. And this means the group of the companions. So, um, this it distinguishes the Sunnis from the Shiites because the Sunnis, they accept the, they believe in the uprightness of the of all of the companions of the Prophet sallallahu alaihi wa sallam, um, whereas the the Shia don't. And we're going to look at, you know, where this disagreement comes from, what the origin is. And so they emphasize versus, we're going to see that the Shiites, they, um, also follow the, they want to, they aim to follow the Sunnah of the Prophet sallallahu alaihi wa sallam, but they do it through, um, a chain of Imams, infallible Imams. So, it's a distinguishing, uh, term that distinguishes the Sunnis from the Shiites. And the Shiites are, uh, sorry, the Sunnis, in the books of the Shiites, the early Shiites, they are referred to as al-Ammah. Al-Ammah means the generality, um, it can be like the masses, um, and so this comes from, so their books of Hadith will mention, will mention this. The, the Shiite books of Hadith, they'll say that this is the position of, of the Imams, and the generality of the, of the Muslims. And this is a pejorative reference to the, the Sunnis, um, their, their position is, um, is such and such. So, uh, so these are just some terms. And, uh, and then where, what's the origin? Um, so Shiism actually originated in Iraq, in, uh, and so, uh, and it, and it happened during the reign of the fourth Caliph, Ali ibn Abi Talib, may Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala be pleased with him. Um, and so what we're going to do is just to put things into context, we'll start with, um, the succession to the Prophet sallallahu alaihi wa sallam, the political succession to the Prophet sallallahu alaihi wa sallam.

So, um, Shiism is often classified by Muslim scholars as a, uh, the Sunni-Shiite disagreement. It, it has origins in a political disagreement. There's other disagreements between groups of Muslims, like for example, the Mu'tazilites. The disagreement with the Mu'tazilites, the Mu'tazilites, they're called, uh, you know, they're, although later on, it it became politicized, but it's from, which means you go and you be alone. So they're, they were actually their founders, they separated themselves from politics, and they were intellectuals. So the nature of the disagreement with the Mu'tazilites is not a political disagreement. But the nature of the different disagreement between the, the, the Sunnis and the Shiites, it, its origin is in a political disagreement, and then this has a theological backing, uh, to each side.

So when the Prophet sallallahu alaihi wa sallam passed away, uh, he was a prophet and messenger, and in his capacity as prophet and messenger, he was a guide. So he would tell people, this is how you should live your life, fear God, um, live a moral life. So this is, this was his capacity as a prophet and messenger. But he also had another capacity, which was he was the head of government. And so he was actually the political leader in Medina. And so when the Prophet sallallahu alaihi wa sallam passed away, there was political succession. So Abu Bakr was elected unanimously as the political successor of the Prophet Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wa sallam. So, uh, when he, this is not like the Pope, you know, the, it's not a, the Abu Bakr was not considered by the Sunnis, um, and by the companions, he was not considered to be infallible. Um, he was considered to be a fallible political leader who was upheld, who was, uh, responsible for upholding the teaching of the Prophet sallallahu alaihi wa sallam. And if he did something wrong, it was the responsibility of the Muslims to stand up and correct him. And that was actually his opening speech when he, he said that he said that if I, uh, if, if I make a mistake, then correct me. Um, so that was Abu Bakr was, was the, was the successor. And both Sunnis and Shiites will agree that there was no political struggle. Um, and they'll both agree that the, uh, companions all gave allegiance to him. And they'll also both agree that Ali ibn Abi Talib also gave allegiance to him, although it was a bit late.

So there was a disagreement between, um, Abu Bakr and Fatima, the daughter of the Prophet sallallahu alaihi wa sallam. When the Prophet sallallahu alaihi wa sallam passed away, he didn't leave behind anything of value, it's come in the Hadith, except, um, except his, um, his weapons, his armor, and his, uh, his, his sword and his helmet, and these kinds of things, and, uh, and, uh, and his donkey. He had, he had a white mule whose name was Duldul, and there was some land that he, that he, that he left behind. Um, this land. Uh, so there was, after the Prophet sallallahu alaihi wa sallam passed away, Sayyida Fatima, she said that I have the right to inherit. And S Abu Bakr and other companions, they quoted the Hadith of the Prophet sallallahu alaihi wa sallam in which the Prophet said, "We prophets are not inherited from. Everything that we leave behind is charity." So, um, in another Hadith, the Prophet mentioned that the things that the prophets and messengers leave behind are not, so this would apply not just to the Prophet Muhammad, but to Moses, to Jesus. They leave behind knowledge, not physical possessions. And that's why we find that when you look at the history, you see that, uh, the Romans, the Persians, all of these ancient civilizations, they built big monuments, big castles. You don't see these kinds of, um, monuments being built by, uh, by Moses, by Jesus, by Muhammad, because they, they came to guide, and, and they're, they, they didn't come to amass wealth and power. And, and so when they die, their possessions are also given in charity. And, but this, this was a disagreement. So Sayyida Fatima, she understood that the Prophet sallallahu alaihi wa sallam, um, did want her to inherit. And there was, there was a disagreement between her and Abu Bakr. And so she was upset at him. And then, uh, and so because in view of, uh, the fact that she was upset at him, Ali, who was his, who was her husband, he did not give his allegiance to Abu Bakr while she was alive. But he didn't oppose. He never, he never opposed. He never said that allegiance should be given to me. And when Fatima passed away, Ali, he gave his allegiance to, to Abu Bakr. And so Abu Bakr ruled for two years. And in this time, there is no, there's no Shiism. There's no supporters of Ali, because there's no, there's no conflict, nothing has happened yet.

Um, then Abu Bakr passes away after two years, and then Omar becomes the second Caliph. And he became Caliph by, uh, by appointment of Abu Bakr during his lifetime, and everybody accepted it, and there was again a unanimous consensus, and everybody, they gave their allegiance to him, including Ali.

Supposed to say, including Ali. Yes. Yes. They all gave allegiance to him. And this lasted until, uh, he was, this was like the golden age of the, the early caliphate. Um, and it lasted for 10 years, and then Omar was assassinated. Um, and then, and then Uthman became the Caliph. Now, Uthman, when he became the Caliph, he appointed a committee of six companions who had to choose among them who would be the Caliph. And it was reduced to, you know, they had discussions, and, and, uh, and at the end, it was reduced to, um, an option between Uthman, who was the son-in-law, uh, of the Prophet Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wa sallam, as well. So Ali is the son-in-law of the Prophet Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wa sallam, and Uthman was also the son-in-law of the Prophet Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wa sallam. In fact, Uthman, he had married two of the daughters of the Prophet sallallahu alaihi wa sallam. One passed away, and then he married another, and that's why he's known amongst the Sunnis as the one of two lights. So, um, there was a, it, it came to them, and at the end, um, the, the decision was made to make Uthman the third Caliph. And, uh, and, uh, and, and so, and then he was appointed as Caliph. And again, after that decision was made, there was an initial, um, discussion, disagreement. And disagreements are, are good because they point to the fact that everybody has the opportunity to freely express their positions. And so all of these things, they were expressed, and then he became the third Caliph. And again, it was, um, everybody gave allegiance to him, including, um, Ali. And this is all agreed upon.

Um, and then at the end of the reign, he reigned for 12 years. And at the end of his reign, um, there were, uh, this is when the conflicts began. So, uh, from a, there's two perspectives here. So there's the Sunni perspective, and then there is the, the Shiite perspective. So from the Sunni perspective, the Sunni perspective, uh, what happened was that during the reign of Omar, there was rapid expansion, and the, the power centers of Islam, they moved outside of Medina to garrison towns. So, say Omar, because there's this rapid expansion, um, he needed, um, the armies, he needed to establish army bases, you know, to, you know, we have bases now where countries, they establish a foothold to control areas that are far away from them geographically. So, uh, the Muslims, they did the same, and they established bases, and there were three bases, garrison towns, um, Kufa and Basra in Iraq, and then the predecessor of modern-day Cairo, Fustat in in Egypt. So what happened was that there were large numbers of army of soldiers that were, they began living there, and they settled there. Their families came, and they, these became their towns. And so if there was a need to, to conduct a military campaign, they could, this is closer to the borders of the Muslim lands now, they can easily go, there's supply lines, uh, are there, there's water, there's food, um, there's a thriving economy. And so he established these, these bases. And what happened was that during the reign of Uthman, there was a power shift. So the, the many of the companions, particularly the older ones, the prominent ones, they passed away, and the companions were now in a minority. And the people who were commanding armies, holding positions of leadership, authority, influence, were now, um, were now, they weren't companions anymore, and many of them were new Muslims, and they had political interests, and they were, uh, based in these, in these towns. So there was a, there was a rebellion against Uthman, and people came, armies came from these three towns, and they besieged his house in Medina. Now, from the Sunni perspective, what the Sunnis say is that there are, there's many Hadith where the Prophet sallallahu alaihi wa sallam, he predicted and foretold that this would happen, and he told Uthman that this would happen, and he told him that, uh, that people will try to, uh, to make you step down, don't step down. In like the wording of the Hadith is, they'll try to make you take off your garment, and don't take it off. And so Uthman didn't step down. And he, but at the same time, he didn't, he told the companions not to defend him. So he didn't want any blood to be shed, any Muslim blood to be shed because of him. So, uh, he was in his house, and he sent his, the people away. He said, let them come, let them do what they want, and they killed him. Um, and then, and this is where, um, this is where all of the confusion began. So after, after he was killed, uh, so after, so according to both Sunni and Shiite sources, um, Ali ibn Abi Talib was not involved in his killing, and he, uh, was opposed to the actions of the people who were trying to kill him, and he was trying to bring about, uh, reconciliation. But after, after Uthman, he died, um, now there was a problem of succession. And this is, there was a very large number of companions in Medina who, uh, who gave their allegiance to Ali ibn Abi Talib, and he became the fourth, fourth Caliph. But there was also a very large number of companions, not a very large, there was a smaller number of companions, primarily, um, led by Mu'awiyah ibn Abi Sufyan in Damascus. Mu'awiyah had been appointed as the governor of Damascus by Uthman, and he was his kinsman, um, and he was a capable ruler, and he was, uh, for about 12 years, he'd been, he'd been the governor of Damascus, which was another power center, and he refused to give allegiance to Ali until Ali brought the killers of Uthman to justice.

So, um, so from the Sunni perspective, what Mu'awiyah and others around him, what they're doing is that they are, they, they believe that Ali has to bring the killers of Uthman to justice. Um, and Ali, his perspective is that I can't, because there's so many of them, and they're scattered amongst the ranks of the army. I need to establish my political power first, and then I'll bring them to justice. And they said, "No, you have to bring them to justice immediately. Until you do, we won't give you allegiance." And so from the Sunni perspective, um, Mu'awiyah was not claiming, was not seeking to be the next Caliph, um, but he was organizing a moral, a moral revolt against Ali, viewing Ali as a fallible human being who's done something wrong, whose actions need to be corrected. From the Shiite perspective, uh, what's happening is that Mu'awiyah wants power, and he wants to be the Caliph, and he is now vying with Ali for power, and the companions, and the companions who are around him, gathering around him, are also, they are enemies of of Ali, and they don't want him to take power. So it's a political power struggle. Um, now, so there were, during the reign of Ali ibn Abi Talib, which was short-lived, there was, um, a number, there were two battles between the companions. The first battle was the battle, it's called the Battle of the Camel, and, um, this battle, it happened between, um, Aisha on one side, and Zubayr. The reason why, and Zubayr are mentioned specifically is because, um, they are two of the companions, companions, two of the 10 companions who were promised paradise by Prophet sallallahu alaihi wa sallam by name. So in the Sunni ranking of the companions, they say that the best of the companions are, uh, it's Abu Bakr, then then Omar, then Ali, and then the rest of the of the six companions who were promised paradise by name. There's a Hadith of the Prophet sallallahu alaihi wa sallam in which he names, um, 10 companions by name, and he says that they are in paradise, and Zubayr was among them. So the fact that they are, so that's why they're mentioned because significant companion. Um, there, uh, the, from the Sunni perspective, the way that these events transpired was that they initially went out to make peace between the two sides, um, but they, they were driven to war. Kind of like, um, you know, like in the news, we read, you know, right, Israel wants to bring the Muslim countries into war, drag them into war by doing all these kinds of things. So the way that the, uh, that the Sunni sources describe what happened was that the, um, there were elements within the armies that did the same thing, and they brought these two, these two, um, armies, the army of Ali, and the army of Aisha, and, and but then into, to battle, there were companions that were killed, but then it stopped very quickly, and she was honored, Aisha was honored, uh, by Ali, and escorted back, um, back home. Um, so, um, there's one actually thing that I want to mention, which is that Ali, he moved the capital, he moved the capital of, of, of the Muslims from Medina to Kufa. And he did this because for political reasons, because now Kufa was the power center. Medina was like the religious, um, heart, but Kufa is the power center. So this is, so they're coming from Medina, and this battle happens. So this is how the Sunnis would understand it. And the Shiites, they would understand it as a, um, as something that's against the, the leadership of, of of Ali ibn Abi Talib, a power struggle. Um, and then there was another battle that happened with Mu'awiyah in the following years. It's called the Battle of Siffin. Um, and they have, so the Sunnis understand this as a moral objection to, uh, to a political decision made by Ali ibn Abi Talib. And Sunnis, they all believe that Ali was right, Mu'awiyah was wrong. So, uh, so Sunnis are, are on the, they're on the side of Ali. And I, and I think this is important for everyone to understand. Right? So, we're on the side of Ali. Um, but, uh, but, uh, but, but we, but we say that Mu'awiyah, he was well-intentioned, and, and so he, and so there was, there was a battle that happened, and it ended in arbitration. And then for the rest of the reign of Ali ibn Abi Talib, there was kind of like, Mu'awiyah had his, you know, he, he was the de facto ruler, ruler over a particular portion of, um, of the Muslim lands, and Ali was, was in the other, was in the other, other region, until Ali ibn Abi Talib was also, um, assassinated, and he died.

Then, um, after that, uh, the son of Ali ibn Abi Talib, so Ali ibn Abi Talib, he had a number of children with, uh, with the daughter of the Prophet sallallahu alaihi wa sallam, Fatima, but two of those children are particularly important: Hassan and Hussein. Hassan is the older, uh, one. He's a grandson of the Prophet sallallahu alaihi wa sallam. And Hussein is the younger one. And they were both like around six, seven years old when the Prophet sallallahu alaihi wa sallam passed away. And the Prophet loved them very much. And the companions remembered how he used to play with them, how he used to kiss them. And so out of, um, their love for the Prophet sallallahu alaihi wa sallam, all of the companions, they loved the children of the Prophet sallallahu alaihi wa sallam. So the Prophet sallallahu alaihi wa sallam, he, from the Sunni perspective, what they say is that he had made a prophecy. He had looked at his son Hassan, uh, as a child, and he had said, the Hadith is in Bukhari, he said, he said, "This son of mine, grandson of mine, is a great leader, and it may be that through him, Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala will bring peace and reconciliation between two great groups of Muslims." So this is what happened in the year 41 after the Hijrah, after the Hijrah. What happened was that that after, um, Ali ibn Abi Talib was assassinated, his son Hassan, who was the older of the two grandchildren, he gathered the people, uh, who supported Ali ibn Abi Talib, and he said, "Give me your allegiance," and he took allegiance. He became his successor. And then he went and he met Mu'awiyah, and he abdicated, and he said, "I stepped down, and I want all of you to follow Mu'awiyah." And, uh, and so, and so, and then this was called, it's called the Year of Unity. And then after that, Mu'awiyah became the Caliph. And so both, um, Sunni and Shiite sources will both agree that this abdication happened. But the Sunnis will present it as a, something that was voluntarily done by Hassan from a position of strength, as a, um, as a, as a selfless act. And the Shiites, they will say that he was compelled. So, uh, that he was compelled by force of circumstance, and Mu'awiyah arrested power, power from him. Um, so this is, this is the history is playing out now. Um, now, it's still Shiism as we know it today has still not developed. And this is an important idea that I want to, that I want us to take away.

Um, because the, the, the key idea of modern-day Shiism, the key idea is that is as follows: It's that when the Prophet sallallahu alaihi wa sallam, before he left this world, he appointed an infallible successor. He appointed Ali ibn Abi Talib to be his infallible successor, and he told all his companions about this. So, so Ali was supposed to succeed him in matters of government, but also in religious matters. And so, and, and his, so if anybody, so in Sunni Islam, we have, we have like the four schools of, um, of, of thought, where, you know, the Hanafi, and the Shafi'i, and the Maliki, um, and the Hanbali. They have disagreements about the details of, um, of Islamic law. And this, this is well, this is, it's, um, accepted by everybody as scholarly disagreement. Um, and, uh, there is, there's like an academic community there, and nobody's regarded as infallible. But from the Shiite perspective, what would happen is that this would not occur. What would happen is that you would have an, you would have one figure, a Pope-like figure, who is an infallible interpreter, who decides all legal questions, and everybody has to follow him religiously and politically. So the, so there is a, so this is the Imamate, the Shiite Imamate. And they, um, they say that they say that when the Prophet sallallahu alaihi wa sallam passed away, he left a, um, he, he appointed Ali as as this successor, and that the, the rightful successor after him, uh, was, uh, was was Hassan, his grandson, who abdicated, and then after him Hussein, and then there's a line of Imams, there's a father-son succession. And so what happens is that there are, um, so I want to say, like, a number, a number of things. So the first thing is that is that these Imams that are mentioned that we're going to go through, there's going to be 12 that we're going to go through very quickly. This is where 12er Shiism comes from. 12er Imam. There's Fiver and Sevener and 12er Shiism. I'll explain where, where this, where this all comes from. But, uh, but the, the Imams, the 11 Imams of the of the 12er Shiites, the Sunnis regard them as their own. They revere them, and they revere them as, um, good, righteous, upright people. They love them. Um, and they, so, you know, I have, I teach the Matn here in Istanbul, the Matn of Imam Malik, every week. I have a class, and we go through chains of transmission. We've gone through many Hadith. Imam Malik narrates from Ja'far. Ja'far is one of the 12 Imams, right? And, and Ja'far narrates from his father, Muhammad al-Baqir, who narrates from his father, Ali Zayn al-Abidin, who narrates, uh, who, uh, narrates from Hussein, or from Ali ibn Abi Talib. And this is a chain of transmission that's found in the Muwatta of Malik, because all of these people, they lived in Medina. They didn't live in Kufa. They lived in Medina, and their knowledge was sought, and they were, uh, uh, they were revered. They were learned from, things were transmitted from them. And, um, but what we, what we find is that in the Sunni tradition, there is no, we don't find them claiming to be the Imam.

You don't find them claiming to be the infallible successor of the Prophet sallallahu alaihi wa sallam, even though they're living amongst the, um, the other companions. And this reality, this reality is something that the, uh, that that the Shiites will also accept. They will accept that they lived amongst the Sunnis, and that they didn't claim to be Imams. And, and so there's a, what they say is, um, they say that all of these Imams, they were doing Taqqiyah. So this is a term that Islamophobes use, right?

Yeah. Unfortunately. Yeah. I was accused of that the other day. I thought, excuse me, where did that come from? Uh, yeah, I mean, by Christians.

Yeah. Yeah. They, they say, they say that you're just pretending to be nice, but really you hate us. You're just, you're just like,

Something, something like that, right? But that's actually not, that's not the, that is that the Shiites intend here, right? So, but the, the Shiites intend here is they say that, um, is that all of these, they say that all of the companions, they knew that these people were infallible Imams, but they were, they said that if you, if you ever say it, and if you ever claim it, and if you ever tell people to follow, follow you, we're going to kill you. We're going to persecute you. We're going to do all of these other things. And so what they did was they, uh, they presented a different face to what they really, uh, believed to be the case, out of fear of, um, of harm. And this is, this is, and this is, I mean, everybody accepts it. I mean, you don't even have to be Muslim to, to, to accept it. I mean, it's just, any, any rational person who whose life is in danger, and somebody says that pretend to be like this, otherwise I'm going to cause you great, great harm, they'll say, okay, fine, in order to protect themselves from harm. It's a totally legitimate thing to do. So, um, so in and of itself, in this, in this meaning, there's nothing negative about it. That this is something that I think that Sunnis also need to understand, because when, uh, when, when the, when the Shiites, they say that the, that the Imams, they did Taqqiyah, there's nothing, this is what it means. Um, now, the question is not whether it's good or bad, the question is, was it happening or was it not happening? So we have to put, like, the, the all of the emotions around this word aside. But what the question is, were they doing? Did they have a secret, um, different belief that they only told a few of their followers, or was their position really what they were telling the majority of the people around them? And that is the, that's the difference between, um, the Sunnis and the Shiites. So the Sunnis will say that they will say that no, like what, what they appear to be saying is what they're saying, and, uh, and all the evidence points to this, and there's hundreds, thousands of of Sunnis who had relations with them, who revered them, who visited them, you know, like there was even this, even goes down late, you know, there's, there's a, who's the grandson of, um, Ibn Abi Shaybah? Ibn Abi Shaybah is a famous Sunni compiler of Hadith, and his student was Ibn Majah, also a famous Sunni compiler of Hadith. They mention that they used to visit his grave, they used to visit his grave in present-day Iran, um, and make dua there, and their duas used to be answered. Um, so the, Imam Shafi'i, he has a famous, um, line of poetry in which he said, "If it is, if, um, if, if loving the family of the Prophet sallallahu alaihi wa sallam means you're Rafidi, is like the pejorative term for Shi'a, um, then let the, everybody in existence, the jinn and mankind, bear witness that I am Rafidi, because this is." So they, so these all of these Imams, they were, they're, they're grandchildren of the Prophet sallallahu alaihi wa sallam. They're righteous people. I mean, like you would, you would revere them out of your love for the Prophet sallallahu alaihi wa sallam. Any, any Muslim would do that, and all of the, and all of the Sunnis, they do, um, the Sunnis, the scholars of scholarship, they do. But this is the, this is the disagreement. The disagreement is this Imamate. And so what I want us to, what I want us to understand is that, um, is that the disagreements, the political disagreements between Ali and Mu'awiyah, even if for the sake of argument, even if someone were to believe that, uh, that the other companions were engaged in a power struggle, the belief in the Shiite Imamate does not follow from that.

Mhm. Right. Uh, so this is a, it's a, it's a different, it's a different issue. Right. And it's a different issue. And what the, what the Sunnis will say, the Sunnis will say is that, uh, so I have a book here. It's actually found in the books of, um, in the books of Usul, in the chapter of, of historical transmission of the Sunnah. It's actually, like, I wanted to do, one of my teachers recently passed away in the month of Ramadan. I studied this book with him. So I, uh, I have my notes here. Um, may Allah have mercy on him. But they talk about this in the chapter of Tawatur, mass testimony. And what they say is, they say that whenever, whenever there is a, there's a historical claim that something happened, and the nature of the historical claim is such that if it were true, everyone would be saying it, but nobody's saying it, or one person is saying it, then you know it's fabricated. So they say that if it were the case that Ali ibn Abi Talib, that all the companions knew that Ali ibn Abi Talib is the infallible Imam successor, then someone would have mentioned it.

When Abu Bakr is being elected, someone would have mentioned it.

And not just somebody, they said that women in the households would be talking about it, everybody would be talking about it. So the, the nature, and, and Ali himself would have said it, right? And, and he had all of these, but you don't find any of that. And so this is, this is evidence that it's not the case. And, uh, and that it's not, you know, this is, it was, it was a, a later, a later invention. So Shiism,

Well, can I, sorry, just pause you there, if I may. Uh, Western historians, who, who obviously are not normally Muslim, uh, when they look at this evidence, and I know they can be Orientalists and so on, they don't, they don't really have a horse in the race, do they, when it comes to the Sunni-Shiite thing? How, how do they view this question of, uh, the succession, political authority? Do they see evidence, or do they agree with the Sunni position? How do they assess it?

So Western historians will, uh, will understand the, the conflicts between the companions as power struggles. They will, they will, because they, when you look at, when you look at, any kind of political struggle throughout human history, it's always about vying for power. So they will assume it's the same thing amongst the conflicts between the companions, that they're vying for power. And, uh, they won't view things as, as the companions being like a special generation. So that there being a special generation, that this is something that is, it is actually, it is historically established, and you can historically establish it by studying their lives. Um, and there's actually many, many good books, a good popular book that I'd recommend everybody read is called "The Companions of the Prophet" by Abdul Rahman Ra'fat al-Basha. It's a two-volume work. Uh, it's very beautiful. Uh, and, uh, and so just to understand, uh, how the companions are understood. And the Prophet sallallahu alaihi wa sallam, he said that "The best of generations is my generation, and then the one after that, and then the one after that." So from the, from a Sunni perspective, because we understand historically and also based on revelation that this is a special generation, we interpret the conflicts in a different way. But a Western, uh, secular historian, they will just interpret it as a power struggle, um, in the same way as the, as the.

Indeed, I'm sure that's the case. But I mean, in terms of the historical evidence, uh, because there is a, a contested claim here about exactly what happened, is there a view, is there a consensus of Western historians about what really happened based on the historical evidence? In terms of Ali, what did Ali have a very good claim? Was there in fact evidence that he saw himself, or others saw him, as the infallible Imam? Or in fact, is that not the case, and that's a later belief? For example.

So I think the infallible Imam part of it is, um, Western historians agree that it's a later, it's a later belief. But they will, they will argue that he believed himself to have a stronger claim, and they will, they will mention it. But the infallible Imam is, is a later thing. So, because what happened was, even if you look at, and there's very, you know, there's a, you can read Western sources, I can give you a couple that you can put in the description for for people who want to read. But the, what happened was that there is a, you have these Imams, and there's, uh, there's, uh, there's 11, there's 11 of them. There's 11 of them. And then what happens is that the 11th one, whose name is Hassan al-Askari, he dies, and, and then there's no one to succeed him. So, so now what happens is that the, the, the Shiites, so from the Sunnis, they say that there's nobody to succeed him, and that's what causes the confusion. The Shiites still say that he did have a son. His son's name was Muhammad al-Mahdi, and he was a child, and he went into hiding. He went into occultation. They call it occultation in Arabic. We call it, and this is foundational for understanding 12er Shiism today. So what they, they say he went into hiding, which means that he is still alive, but nobody can see him. So he's still alive, literally centuries after he was born, literally.

And still, he's still alive. And so, and then, and then what, what happened was that that after, um, after he, after he went into, into hiding, according to the, to the Shiites, there was a period which was called the period of, in Arabic, we say the minor occultation, where there were deputies. There were four deputies who said to people that, "We're in communication with the hidden Imam. Nobody can see him, but we know who he is, and he's talking to us, and this is what he's saying." And, and this happened. There were four deputies. And then after the fourth deputy, he went, the fourth deputy, before he died, they say he said that, "Okay, now he's not going to talk to anybody else." And so now he's, he's gone, but he'll come back towards the end of time. And so it's, it's this period, it's this period where the doctrines of the Imamate, according to the Shiites, was really developed. And so when you, when you look at it from a secular academic perspective, it doesn't seem, um, um, it doesn't seem historically that that that this is really historically what's happening. Uh, but it, it, and so it's not, it's not something that's, um, a secular historian would easily believe in. So, so that's why the, the, the doctrine of the Imamate in this way is, is not, uh, is not, uh, is not accepted, uh, by, it's, it's a very, it's a, I don't know how to say, like a supernatural claim that also, it, it doesn't really have that much evidence for it.

Well, that's the point, isn't it? Because you could be a Muslim or a secular person. The question is, was there widespread mutual evidence in the earliest times for belief in the Imamate and Ali's premier claim on it and so on? And you're saying there is no evidence, basically, whether secular historians look at the evidence or Muslims look at the evidence, Sunni Muslims, there's simply no evidence, right?

Okay. What, what the, what the secular historians will do is that they will point to, there's actually, what happened was that, so if you just kind of continue the story a little bit, so, um, so after Mu'awiyah, after Uthman, Mu'awiyah, after when he passed away, um, just before he passed away, he appointed his son Yazid as his successor. And, um, and this was, this caused, um, great opposition amongst in Medina. And the reason why was because his son Yazid was not a companion. And there were, there were many companions of the Prophet sallallahu alaihi wa sallam who were still alive. And Hussein, the grandson of the Prophet sallallahu alaihi wa sallam, is still alive. So how can you, the companions are still here? There's many knowledgeable righteous ones of them. How can the son of Mu'awiyah, who's not a companion, be, uh, made the Caliph? And so his caliphate was not accepted, and, and people did not, uh, there's many companions who refused to give allegiance to him. And this is where, um, Hussein, he was, um, he was called by people in Kufa, the supporters of Ali. He was called by them. They said, "Come to Kufa. We'll fight with you. We'll support you." And, um, and he, so he went, and he was advised against going by many companions, but he went, and they didn't support him, and he was killed. And his killing, it is a huge stain in Muslim history. Right? You know, imagine the grandson of the Prophet sallallahu alaihi wa sallam, who was in the lap of the Prophet sallallahu alaihi wa sallam, who he loved and he kissed, being killed. I mean, it's, how can any, how can a Muslim do that, you know? So, so this, this event, he was killed at Karbala, it, it shook the Muslim world. And, um, and so, and it shook everybody. And the Sunnis, they, they're totally, like, it's terrible, it's a terrible tragedy. But what, what it did was that it, um, it set in motion throughout the, um, so after Mu'awiyah, his son Yazid became the Caliph, um, by force. And then there were others. There's a story of, there's a history of succession, the Umayyad dynasty. And throughout this period, there were people who were upset there, who had political grievances, and they rallied around a, some kind of a descendant of the Prophet sallallahu alaihi wa sallam as their leader in opposition. So there were many, many revolts. So they were actually many, many different kinds of Shiism that emerged, and there were many different beliefs. But they were all revolving around the fact that the family of the Prophet sallallahu alaihi wa sallam, um, should rule. And there were many righteous people amongst them. One of them, his name was, um, was Zayd. So Zayd, Zayd is, uh, I'll just, uh, so Zayd is the, um, brother of Muhammad al-Baqir. So if we go, if we look at the Imams, Ali, Hassan, Hussein, Ali Zayn al-Abidin, and then there's Ali Zayn al-Abidin, and then after that, you have Ja'far al-Sadiq, he is the one who, Imam Malik narrates from. Ja'far al-Sadiq has a brother, his name was Zayd. No, Ja'far had an uncle, sorry. After Ali Zayn al-Abidin, there's Muhammad al-Baqir, and then there's Ja'far. And so Muhammad al-Baqir has a brother whose name is Zayd. And Zayd led a rebellion against the Umayyads. And Imam Abu Hanifa supported him. Right? And so he's the fifth Imam. And so the Zaydis, the Zaydis in Yemen, they ascribe themselves to Zayd. It's an ascription to Zayd. So these are like the Fivers. And then, so they have the line continues after there. So they branch from them here. Then after the seventh Imam is Musa al-Kazim, and he had a brother, his name is Isma'il. And so the Seveners, who are the Isma'ilis, they branch from him.

And so the Isma'ilis have a continuous line of living Imams down to the present age.

Who is the Aga Khan, famously?

Al-Hussayni, there's Al-Hussayni is one branch, and there's another branch called the Bohras. Um, they're in India. Um, they're more conservative. But Al-Hussayni is the famous one. Yeah. Mhm.

Uh, and then, and then, so, and then it goes down after that to, to the line of the 12er, to the 12th one who went into occultation. Um, but there were many others. Um, and this is another reason why, um, you can, it's looks like the, the doctrine of the Imamate was developed in various different ways, and there were political historical reasons why, um, certain sects ended up having certain beliefs.

You just surprised me. Sorry, if I could just add my inevitable Christian comparison here, that the, in in Catholicism, going back to the early church, we have the idea of, you find it in Irenaeus in the second century AD, of the charism of infallibility, which is, uh, passed down through apostolic succession. So the, the bishops, who succeed one after the other after the other in communion with the Bishop of Rome, have this charism, this like gift of infallibility. And this idea was there in the second century. I'm not saying every Christian believed it, but at least it was mentioned there. And that's part of Catholic doctrine, to do with apostolic succession of succession of people who could be infallible or whatever were kept and preserved in faith. And there's a certain similarity, being the first person to notice this, between that and the Shiite doctrine of the Imamate, which also is infallible, and gives a kind of contemporary hermeneutic. They can interpret the, the faith to ongoing ages, you know, and the same with apostolic succession. So the church then has a kind of, you know, it believes it has the mind of Christ somehow, and, and it can infallibly pronounce on doctrine and faith and morals throughout the, the succeeding ages. And there is a parallel there. Because Protestants, evangelicals particularly, usually reject that, and they're more like the Sunnis, and that they just focus on. Anyway, I don't want to draw too many parallels, but there are some.

It's actually a very useful comparison because what's going to happen is, is what's, we're going to look at now is that there is a, that with the, this idea of the occultation, where the 12th Imam went into hiding, that's actually, it's a break. There's a slight difference that is introduced.

Now, um, to the other sects, like the Isma'ilis and also Catholicism. They have a living imam. The Isma'ilis have a living imam. Of course, there's a new one now because the old one died about a year ago, and there's now a new, younger, uh, imam who carries on the succession of the imams. Yeah.

But the Twelvers, since the uh, you know, for for for like for for over a thousand years, for over a thousand years, um, I think 1,200, for like almost 1,200 years, they haven't had an imam, and their imam has been in hiding. So it seems, it appears. Why has he been in hiding? I mean, you'd think by now he'd be a bit bored, but I mean, it sounds very irreverent, but I mean, you know, why is he still in hiding? Why doesn't he come out and do things?

He, they believe that he is going to be the Mahdi, according to them. So, the end of times, the end of times. So they have a, um, they have a messianic belief, uh, kind of like, um, you know, the the messianic, um, beliefs of, uh, of some, um, Jews and Christians, of an infallible figure appearing at the end of time. So they're waiting for an infallible figure to appear at the end of time, which is, um, which, which is concerning. Um, and I'll, uh, explain why in, so let's, let me get to that in a second.

So, but the, the, the fact that he went into hiding actually historically had a moderating effect. So, um, so now, uh, so the Twelver Shiites, they have historically been moderate, very moderate Shiites. They, they've lived alongside the Sunnis, um, and, uh, and there's, uh, there's been intermarriage. And, and so, because there's no living infallible successor, um, and they, um, so they, the affairs have been regulated by their scholars, who they believe are fallible. Um, and what they did was, is that they, they believed they were critical of the Sunnis. They used, they viewed the Sunnis as, they said, they used to believe that anyone who holds political office is usurping the right of the hidden imam. So it was, it's, um, impermissible to hold political office because if you hold political office in the presence of the hidden imam, who's still alive, you are doing the same thing that everybody was doing to the, to, to the previous imams. So they were, uh, they were historically, they were not involved in politics. And, uh, as a result of that, and then things changed. And what happened in the Islamic Revolution in Iran is a, uh, 19, is a culmination of that, is a culmination of that change.

So let me just describe the change, right? So the change, it began, um, it began with the, uh, Safavids in the 16th century. So the Safavid, um, this was a competing caliphate to the Ottomans, um, and they, they established themselves in Iran, and they were actually originally Sunnis. They were originally Sunnis, but they adopted Twelver Shiism as a way, uh, to, to, as a way to, uh, to make a political identity where you can have an Islamic polity, um, that gives them legitimacy that's, you know, otherwise belongs to the Ottomans, because the Ottomans are like the Sunni, the Sunni, they have legitimacy amongst the Sunnis. So the Safavids, they established themselves in Iran. Iran historically has been Sunni. Um, it's been Shafi, like the, it's been a seat of Imami, um, from Iran. You know, Razi is from Iran and the Shafi school. Um, a major branch of, of the, um, we have, we have, like the, they, they, a huge number of them, they're, they're, they're from Iran. They were, they were Shafi, they were Ash'ari. And they, um, after the Safavids came to power, over a period of 200 years, there was forcible conversion of large numbers of Sunnis to, to Shiism, and there was repression of, of the Sunnis. Um, they weren't permitted to publicly practice their religion, um, and, uh, and so they, they adopted a, uh, a Shiite Islam. And so, um, they, they, the Ottomans and the Safavids, they were competing, like, political, um, centers, um, in the Muslim world.

So that's why it's actually interesting. Like, you go to an Ottoman mosque here in Istanbul, and you look at the dome, it's, you look at the dome, you have the domes have the names of the four caliphs on the dome, and it has the name of the ten companions that are promised paradise. This is Sunni, Sunni identity against a, um, against a Shiite state. But they also have the grandchildren of the Prophet, sallallahu alaihi wa sallam. They'll have Hassan, Hussein there as well. Um, so, so they will, um, so that is, um, you know, you can see remnants of that. So that was the, that was that was the Safavid Empire. That's when Shiism it became established. The Safavids were also, um, the ones who established, which is now, uh, one of the centers of learning in Shiite Islam. The most influential seminaries are in Qom. So they were the ones who, um, who established, established that area, and it became a center for, for, um, Shiite scholarship. Um, an early Shiite scholar who was very influential even in the Muslim world, his name is Mulla Sadra. Mulla Sadra is someone who, who was from, he lived and taught there, and his books are studied by Sunnis down to the present age. So the Deobandis in, um, in India and Pakistan, they would study, they used to study the works of Sadra in Salafiyyah. Um, so he's a major figure. It is a city of Qom. Um, so there was, uh, so it was Shiism was established as, as the state religion, and they claimed to be, um, they claimed to be descendants of the Prophet, sallallahu alaihi wa sallam. But there was no formal, uh, formal reconciliation of political power in the, in the, in the presence of the hidden imam. And that's that formal, uh, reconciliation merger, that's what, um, that's what he did, um, in the events that led up to the Islamic Revolution, um, in Iran.

So he had a doctrine, he has a book, it's called *Velayat-e Faqih*, which means, uh, the leadership of the jurist. So he, he, he said he argued that in the absence of, uh, while the imam is still hidden, it is the responsibility. So instead of it being impermissible to hold political office, he argued that it is the responsibility of the jurists amongst the Shiites to hold, to govern on behalf of the hidden imam, to use their knowledge and govern in behalf of the hidden imam. And he established a religious hierarchy, and then you had a supreme leader.

And this is what we've been reading about in the news, um, in the news recently. And the, the supreme leader, um, is somebody who is, um, appointed by a council, by a council of scholars. They appoint him.

Council in the media as a council of experts. It's funny, you even hear like the BBC or Fox News talking about the council of experts as if they know what they're talking about anyway. Yeah. Experts. Yeah. Yeah.

So, so there's, they appoint the supreme leader, and then when the supreme leader is appointed, he becomes a, a, a, um, jurist who rules in lieu of the hidden imam, and it becomes religiously binding on everybody to obey him.

Wow. So, so what, so it's a, it's a clerical hierarchy, a scholarly hierarchy that is politically empowered. And then, uh, and so, so the jurist is politically. So not all, um, Twelver Shiites agree with this. There's actually, there's two.

A new doctrine is a bid'ah, to use. Are they, uh, are they considered infallible by the people who support the idea? They're not considered infallible, but on religious matters, uh, everybody has to obey them, uh, because otherwise, there's like the political structure, there's danger to the political, uh, stability of the state. So, um, in effect, like it has, um, they're not infallible, but they have a lot of power.

And it's, Paul, sorry to interrupt you. I think it's such an important point you're making here in terms of the consequences for understanding the current situation. You know, Trump and all, I'm not going to get into the war, be controversial about this, but I just want to just remark that the idea that he initially thought it would seem that you could just decapitate or remove the leader and suddenly, you know, Iran would be free and, and, you know, like removing Saddam Hussein from Iraq. But if the, if the religion itself is so constituted that the supreme leader and the Ayatollah, whatever, are, is obliged to follow them on religious matters, you know, and Iran is overwhelmingly Shia, um, then you're not, it doesn't, you can decapitate who you like, you're not going to, the regime is not going to collapse because it is, and I understand people who've been, who know about Iran, Iran, most Iranians are devout people, you know, these are not, it's not like secular politics. People follow their leaders religiously, literally and metaphorically. So there might be a fundamental misunderstanding here by certain people, like Trump and others, to think you can just re, you know, decapitate the leadership and everything will blossom into a secular democracy. And this is to misunderstand Shia, the Shia faith, arguably.

Yeah, there's a system in place. Um, although I would, I'm not, um, there is a very large, uh, there's a very large population of Iranians that are highly secular, um, and, uh, anti-religious. And, and that, that's actually, it's an unfortunate result of, um, the combining of religion and politics in this way, um, which creates a system where people's personal freedoms are repressed. So not just the secular people, but even the Sunnis, like the Sunnis, they don't have, they don't have freedom in, um, in, uh, in Iran. Um, so, uh, that leads to a, um, it leads to a reaction against religion as a whole, which is why I think it's important to emphasize a number of things.

One of them, one of them is that the doctrine of, there's actually, there's two centers of learning in Twelverism. There's one in Qom, and there's one in Najaf. Najaf is in Iraq, and Najaf is where the Shiites believe that Ali is buried. The Sunnis don't believe he's buried there, but they believe that he's buried there. So it has, it's visited, there's a shrine there. And many of the scholars of, of Najaf, down to recent times, they disagreed with, um, Khomeini's doctrine of, and about the political empowerment of the, of the, of the Shiites, and they have a very large following. So Twelver Shiism, even today, it's not uniform. There is this, uh, there's this theological disagreement, um, amongst them. Yeah.

Um, uh, so that was, um, I think like the final thing that I wanted to, I wanted to mention was that, um, is that the, uh, this, um, the hierarchy, the religious, the religious hierarchy in Sunni Islam, we don't have a history of that. Um, so, so in, in Sunni Islam, scholars, the scholars, they're very decentralized. Um, they're all over the world. Um, there's an academic community. They engage with each other. They disagree with each other. And there's a natural, they're amongst the people, aren't they? They're quite, not low-level, but they are amongst the people. Uh, and they're not like above the people looking down on them, like kind of clerics or popes. Uh, and, uh, they're quite localized, as you say. It's not like this hierarchical structure of clerical class. This is not a feature of Sunnism.

Yeah. Yeah. So, so since, um, so after, um, for, for basically after the, actually, even like throughout, throughout our history, we've never had, uh, the, we've never had politically empowered religious doctrine imposed upon the masses. But the, there's been a, in Sunni Islam, the leader is a fallible political leader, and there is a moral, uh, education that scholars have, and the Muslim masses are responsible to hold the leader to account, to follow these moral, these moral commands.

And, can I just recommend, this is not something I'm not expecting you to, but this is, uh, Wael Hallaq, his professor at Columbia University, *The Radical Separation of Powers Has a History of Islamic Constitutionalism*. Now, he's one of the world's leading experts on Islamic history and Islamic law and so on. Uh, that this is very much germane to that. And just looking through this, everything you're saying is absolutely, is absolutely right. And that this is the latest work from Wael Hallaq, which I highly recommend.

That's like, um, that was, so I think like those were the, those were the main things that I wanted to, Oh, right. Um, I wanted to go over. And I thought that it's, um, just one, thank you, just one final point. The word Ayatollah, Ayah, Ayah is like a sign, and sign of God, isn't it? What's the relationship between an Ayatollah and a supreme leader then, or are they the same?

So, and, uh, there's a, there's a religious hierarchy. There's names and titles that are given to, uh, there's names and titles that are given to scholars by the, by the scholarly establishment. So, um, so this is interesting because just, it kind of goes from what you were just mentioning right now, is that in a Sunni tradition, you can't really do that because things are so decentralized and there's so many different nodes. You can't, you can't like come together and say that, okay, everybody agrees that the rank of this scholar is this, is like a level one scholar, and this is level two scholar. And it, it, there is a, these are, um, it, there's an academic community, kind of like in the western, um, academic tradition. Einstein is recognized as an authority by virtue of the fact that there are so many different scientists that have confirmed his work and found them to be valuable. So in the same way, that's the same way in which scholarly authority emerges in the Sunni tradition. But in the, over here, there's a lot of, there's politicization and there's scholarly ranks that are given. And so, so the Ayatollah is the highest, um, highest scholarly rank. There's, there's a rank below that, um, there's ranks below that, um, and then the supreme leader is somebody who's chosen, um, to be, to have this political authority.

Nor, so, right, okay. No, that's great. Well, uh, that's fantastic. Thank you so much, Hamza Karami. This is such an important subject that we, uh, do a deep dive on on Iran, which is under sustained attack at the moment, obviously, um, that going into all those issues, but to understand the unique, uh, features of that country and its Twelver Shiism, um, and, and, you know, arguably that's not been sufficiently appreciated by many in the West in their, uh, political machinations on Iran. At least that's my view. Um, so thank you very much. Do, do everyone have a look at the links in the, uh, description below, the course we mentioned, and other links as well, to follow up on this. So thank you very much, Sheikh Hamza, and, um, looking forward to have you back another time.