Transcription
Welcome to Opening Bid Unfiltered. I'm Yahoo Finance executive editor Brian Sazi, and I am so pumped to speak to our next guest. I don't know how we got him into Yahoo Finance headquarters because it's the holiday season. He's busy. He's working a big company. Maybe it's because we were, uh, one of the first people that talked to him before the company's IPO, when he was just getting started, that Circle, uh, founder, co-founder, and CEO, Jeremy Lair. Good to see you again. It's been a while.
>> Yeah, great to see you, Brian. Absolutely. This has been this has been a tremendous year for your company. Have you had any, before we get into the business, have you, business and and what you're up to, have you had any time to reflect on anything you've done? IPO, uh, new partnerships? Do you take a breather at all?
>> Well, you know, I, I, uh, I, I tried to take a little bit of a breather at the end of the summer. [laughter] It was a, probably one of the most, uh, wild spring and summers of, uh, of my life. Uh, so, t-taking a moment there and, um, and obviously hoping to take a little bit of a breather, uh, here at the end of the year. Um, but I think, um, I'm always trying to reflect and, you know, I think, um, with with all of the things that have been going on for Circle, um, you know, there, there's always this kind of juxtaposition, you know, sort of where, where were we a year ago, two years ago, you know, three years ago, right? And and then constantly reflecting on just the dramatic change and evolution that's there. So, um, it's been, it's been, um, a very reflective year in some respects, all the way through, uh, each, each of these kind of milestones and moments.
>> Uh, one of the benefits of doing a podcast, we can like let conversations breathe a little bit. So, back in those early days when we were talking to you, I, six, seven years ago, whatever it was, um, and then now you IPOed this year. What was that, if anything I've learned about you, you've always, you seem calm, measured, and focused, but what was that like, day of IPO for you?
>> Well, you know, there's a lot of, uh, there's some videos and pictures and other stuff that that have like circulate around from, you know, various, uh, uh, media outlets, and they, they, I think capture, uh, the energy, uh, pretty well, which was, I was extremely energized. I was just thrilled. Um, and, you know, I think, um, it was, it was a, it was a, a massive expression of, um, of, of pride and, and, and excitement and, um, gratitude and, um, you know, in some ways, vindication as well, right? Um, because I think when I started the company, co-founding it, uh, almost 12, well, 12 and a half years ago now, um, you know, the, the, the amount of skepticism that I have faced, uh, over, uh, over the decade plus.
>> None of this existed.
>> Yes. None, none have existed. And, and, you know, we, we, we had a very clear vision of what could come into existence, and, and we've, we've made that happen. And, um, so, yeah, a lot of, a lot of that, um, and, uh, and, you know, really incredible for, um, you know, as, as a moment, very joyful for, for all of the stakeholders, um, that have helped build the company, uh, over this, this whole, this whole time as well.
So, 12 years ago, you co-found Circle and you want to do something called stablecoin, and you have regulators, all these other folks. We don't really know what stablecoin is. How, how, how did you deal with that resistance to something that was so, and is so innovative?
>> Yeah. So, uh, the, the, the word stablecoin didn't exist, uh, 12 and a half years ago. Um, but we, we, we talked about, um, you know, dollar digital currency. We talked about this idea that you could create a, uh, a protocol for dollars on the internet that you could connect dollars and other currencies as well, dollars, euros, etc. Uh, you could connect those, uh, make them function as digital currencies, and, and make them, uh, you know, circulate and be used on the public internet, just like we have other types of data and information on the public internet. And that was the idea we had 12 and a half years ago. And, um, and, you know, I think from really actually 12 years ago in November, actually, was the first time I testified on Capitol Hill to the Senate, um, in the very first hearing, public major hearing on, in Congress about virtual currency, as it was called back then. Um, and, um, you know, that the testimony and sort of what I talked about then is sort of the same stuff that I talked about over and over and over again, all the way through getting the Genius Act signed, which is like, an internet-based model for money is here. It has tremendous opportunity to change how value can be exchanged. It can unlock incredible new utility for money. Uh, it can do for the financial system what the internet has done for information and communications and commerce and, and software and, and so many other things. And, um, we need to be able to, uh, have it be regulated because there's a kind of social contract between those that issue money and, and manage money and, and, and society as a whole around dealing with fraud or crime or other, other, uh, you know, financial risks. Um, but we also need to be open-minded that there's a new model. It's an internet-based model, and that's very different than the model we've had in the past. And, you know, really the message was always like, um, we can build on this new technology. Even in those early days, it was very nent technology, barely worked, right? Um, but, but we could build on this technology and, and do it safely and, and do it compliantly. And there are ways to do that. And, um, that's, that's been the message, continues to be the message. And, um, and I think we're, we're entering a very different era now in terms of the, the change that can happen from this technology, uh, in society and the economy as a whole. Um, but we continue to have that discussion with governments everywhere, right? Because this is now, it's sort of like when the internet got commercialized and then got rolled out and ISPs opened up all around the world, and people started building, you know, web hosting businesses and communications on the internet, and Yahoo, obviously being a pioneer, one of, one of the biggest pioneers in, in, in that era, um, that's happening now. And, and governments around the world are all having to, uh, you know, work this out. And, um, and so it's a, you know, a lot of people have sort of said, you have the Genius Act done, you know, now, now what? I'm like, well, now, now this is actually every government in the world's business. And in fact, what the US has done with the Genius Act, it is, it has created a model, much like the Telecommunications Act of 1996, which then opened up the commercial, the broad commercialization, competitive internet, um, that's happening with this change in the financial system. And so everybody's got to figure it out.
>> I didn't get to tell you at the time of the IPO, but I, I will tell you now, I went back and I reread the prospectus, um, for your IPO, and you had, it was, it was probably one of the best shareholder letters that I've read on a prospectus. It's like, for real. I'm not, I felt your connection to the topic. I felt your purpose, your passion for, for Circle, but you made a couple good points. You said, quote, "We don't fit in a box." For those not familiar with Circle, like, what is Circle today, and what will Circle be next year?
>> Yeah. You know, um, it's, it's really, it's really important, and I'm glad you picked that up. Um, and, and thank you. Uh, you know, this concept of, we don't fit in a box. It, it's, um, it's one of these things where, you know, to, to the average person, uh, or, or a really sophisticated person, whatever, uh, who, who's looking at a company, it's very easy to say, "Oh, you're like a bank," or, "Oh, you're like a payment company. Oh, you're, no, you're more like an, an enterprise technology company, or you're more like, you know," they, they want to put you in a box, right? And, um, we don't fit in a box. Um, we, uh, you know, we describe ourselves now as an internet financial platform company. And, uh, and actually, what's interesting, uh, just a quick tangent, is the company's name, uh, you know, originally, and it still has, that was, uh, in some cases, was Circle Internet Financial. And this idea of an internet financial system was in the founding of the company. And so, an internet financial platform company. Well, we have internet platform companies. We have, uh, communications-oriented internet platform companies like a Facebook. We have commerce-focused internet platform companies like Amazon. On, we have information discovery, uh, platforms like, uh, Google. Um, and, you know, we, we have, uh, device and mobile platform internet platform companies like Apple. And we think there there are going to be, um, over the next 5 to 10 years, fairly sizable internet financial platform companies that are built. And, and what that means is that we're operating, um, fundamental, uh, low-level infrastructure. So, we have a, a kind of, uh, operating system business that we're building called ARC, and we're building, kind of the fundamental operating system technology that's needed to bring economic activity natively onto the internet. We're a digital asset, uh, issuer. We're a money, we have a money layer that we have, and a stablecoin network that is this money layer of dollars and euros. And we also have one of the fastest growing tokenized, uh, um, treasury and, and, and, and repo money market products. Um, and, and then we have, uh, you know, applications that we're building as well. So, we're getting in the application space. We have an application to support, uh, international money movement, uh, between, you know, uh, all kinds of businesses and people. We have an application that we're releasing to, uh, unlock how, uh, currencies can be exchanged around the world. And we have a lot of ideas. And so, um, you know, we have a lot of the things that we do are, are software infrastructure that's just generally available on the public internet. It's just open software infrastructure on the internet. You don't have a contract with us. You just go build and integrate to our protocols. And then, of course, we have, you know, USDC, which is very well known, and individuals know it and use it, and institutions know it and use it, and governments regulate it. And so, that's, that's there. But this, this concept of an internet financial platform, I think, is, is here to stay. And, um, is really who we are today. And, you know, I would, I would just give as an example, right? Um, you know, is Google an advertising company? Are they an operating system company? Are they a device company? Like, what? Well, they're all those, right? They don't fit in a box. Is, is Facebook, uh, a communications company? Are they a hardware company? AI? Are they? Are they an AI company? [laughter] Right. So, so I think as, as you, as you, as you've sort of seen in the, the various, kind of evolving epics of the internet, um, you know, I, I think that there are companies that emerge that can kind of span a few key areas. And we're, we're in some ways, we're narrowly focused, right? We're not trying to build an app for, like, social stuff. Uh, I mean, there are companies in crypto doing that, right? Um, we're not, we're not trying to build an everything exchange, right? We're, we're a little bit more narrowly focused on the infrastructure that's needed to bring the economic system onto the internet, to bring the economic and financial system onto the internet. And that's narrow in that, like, there's a lot of other things that.
>> Well, I don't want, I don't want to put you in a box, but if I had to make a, a comparison, let's just say it's 2026, and I need to compare your company to others at this point. Are you more comparable to Coinbase, more comparable to JP Morgan, or more comparable to a Visa?
>> You know, um, the, there's not one easy company to map us to. I, I really mean that, right? Because, you know, for example, um, we don't, uh, we don't sign up, you know, merchants, uh, we don't have consumer products, right? Um, you know, we depend on others to do that. In fact, just earlier this week, we had a big announcement with Visa about how Visa is now rolling out USDC settlement to all US issuers, all for banks in the US to now settle with USDC. It's a big thing. They piloted with us for a while. They started doing, you know, billions of dollars of of USDC settlement, and now they're rolling it out to to all of the bank customers in the US. And that's great, right? So, you know, we're supporting a Visa. We're an infrastructure in inside of what a Visa can do. Um, and, um, you know, and, and I, I think, um, look, I, there are, there are definitely companies that are working on the infrastructure layer. Um, you know, uh, Coinbase has Base, uh, Stripe has Tempo, uh, you know, Circle has ARC. Um, so there's infrastructure areas. But, you know, like a lot of things, um, you know, we, we, um, we collaborate across every layer of what we do. In fact, you know, earlier this week was another great example. JP Morgan, uh, announced they're, they're launching a new, uh, uh, tokenized money market fund, which can be used on blockchains called M O N Y, money.
>> Clever.
>> And you can, you know, the, the, the onchain way to purchase and redeem that is USDC. And so, you know, now, you know, a JP Morgan is enabling their products with USDC. And a week before JP Morgan issued one of the first, uh, corporate commercial papers as a digital token that was sold on chain. And the, and the purchase of that corporate commercial paper, uh, was all done with USDC. And the proceeds of it were distributed to the issuer in USD DC, which is really cool. So, an investment bank selling a bond, doing it with USDC. So, we, um, we're an enabler. And, and I think, um, great market neutral infrastructure and platform companies, they do that and, and become enablers for so many other firms. Um, and that's what we want to do. We want to help every institution in the world build great products that bring economic activity on the internet. And we want to make sure that we build the infrastructure so that people can have great experiences, whether you're a person or a business or a financial institution, that you can have a great experience with this new financial system.
>> All right, hang with us, Jeremy. We're going to go out for a quick break. We'll be right back on Opening Bid Unfiltered. [music]
>> All right, welcome back to Opening Bid Unfiltered. Having a great chat here with Circle Co-founder and CEO, Jeremy Aair. What is, so when you hear folks talk about rising debt levels in the US, uh, and where the country is going, and it all might undermine the dollar. Does that, does that support what you're doing on stablecoin?
>> You know, um, there's sort of like long-term kind of monetary system discussions that are that are very valid today. You know, I travel around the world a lot, and, you know, we all, we all remember when when Liberation Day happened, and there were all these tariffs, and there was a sort of sell the dollar, you know, move, and people getting out of dollar assets because it's all going to going to hell. Well, that's obviously wasn't the case, and that's largely reversed. But I think it underscored an actual underlying tension that's there. We've seen, for example, uh, for mostly geopolitical reasons, we've seen large central banks, um, acquire more gold, you know, hold less US government obligations. Now, is that because gold is better than US treasuries, because the US government has this massive, uh, uh, amount of debt? Maybe. I think that's a perhaps, uh, a justification. Um, but it's also geopolitical, which is sort of, you know, in a, in a, if the world fragmented further from where it is today, as opposed to more normalized, which right now, at least we feel like we're, we're moving more towards normalization, if I had to read the tea leaves for 2026. But, um, you know, there are these kind of, uh, geopolitical, geoeconomic questions now, without a doubt. Uh, so, so for us, look, uh, the dollar accounts for the overwhelming majority of transactions in the world today, whether that's international trade or other transactions, uh, capital markets transactions, commerce, and other. And, uh, a, a digital dollar that is programmable and works on the public internet and takes advantage of all this technology disruption is just a killer app. And it is. And that's not going to change anytime soon, right? That, that is a killer app that is there. And I think, um, to bet against the US economy, I think is, is challenging. There is no better economic system in the world right now than the US system. And, uh, and so the, the real question is, is the debt sustainable? That's a, you know, that's a re, a reasonable question. And look, I, I, I'm, I'm very much of the view that you have to deal with both issues. Meaning, you have to deal with the, the amount of spending, and you have to deal with the amount of tax, uh, tax receipts. And actually, the fastest way to grow tax receipts is to grow the economy. Um, and so I think a focus on growth in the economy and on bringing in investment into the country, and on investing in the strategic industries that are going to fuel that growth, um, is, is critical. And I think we're seeing that happen. Um, it's a, it's a timing question, right? If you, if you, if you were talking to Secretary Besson, I think he'd say something similar, which is, you know, we're going to get productivity gains out of this incredible investment that's happening in AI. And, and this is sort of the AI bubble discussion as well, which is, you know, when does that happen? But me sitting here as a technologist looking at it, it seems very clear that over the next decade, we will see extraordinary productivity increases in the global economy. Yes, the US economy as well, and, and, and, and US-based companies will will benefit from this massively. But we, we're going to see these productivity gains, and productivity gains drive real growth.
>> It doesn't sound like you're worried about an AI bubble. If we're going to get this much productivity because of AI, those don't bubble.
>> Well, I, I don't know. Well, I mean, look, um, bubbles are a, a natural phenomenon, uh, in, in, in markets and in technology cycles.
>> And tulips.
>> Well, in, in, in, in the industrialization of the, of the, of the world economy over the past, you know, couple hundred years, right? There were many, many bubbles. Bubbles in railroads, bubbles in electricity, bubbles in, uh, in, in, in so many other things. And, um, look, uh, the, the, the amount of investment that's happening for these five to seven to 10 companies, if you count China and everything else, right? Is, um, not everyone's going to win, right? So, you're going to have some winners, you're going to have some losers, etc. But the, the real question is, how quickly does the infrastructure unlock economic velocity? And so, I'm very focused on that, and, and we're very focused on that. In fact, it's critical to Circle's strategy because we believe that economic oss, like what we're building with ARC, are, we're designing those for the agentic economy. We're designing those with the assumption that in over the next three to five years, a huge amount of the economic activity, the, the work, the labor, the coordination, the, the, the, the value exchange that's happening in the world will be executing, will be executed by AI, and will be executed by AI agents. And we need a different paradigm, a different economic infrastructure paradigm for that. We're designing for that. Um, and, you know, three to five years, you could have a bubble burst before that. You know, I mean, Yahoo, uh, has lived through multiple bubbles as well.
>> And now we're rocking. We're rocking here.
>> Yeah. No, that's great. And, you know, the, the internet bubble, uh, you know, kind of, there was overspend on capex, and then it got absorbed as, as the technology got better, and you could, you could do a lot of the things that people thought you could do in 1998 that you actually couldn't do. You could do them in 2004. I look, you've been doing this, you founded the company 12 years ago, clearly you saw something happening down the line. Where is, maybe I end it on this, where is Circle 10 years from now? Where, what is your vision?
>> Well, I think, um, I hope that we're, um, you know, part of, uh, operating, you know, a, a major new infrastructure layer of the internet, um, that, uh, you know, we, we are building and operating. But I, I view what we're doing as something that is, it involves a lot of stakeholders, that involves a lot of, of whether it's developers or infrastructure companies or financial companies, like that, that we're building something that is running a substantial portion of this new economy. Um, that the, the new economic activity that is natively running on the internet, and is natively running powered by AI, and is this extremely high velocity economic system, that we are foundational to the infrastructure of that. And, um, you know, I, I really would love to see that. And, and I believe that in 10 years, that, um, these new forms of money that we've been involved with, stablecoin, Um, and now the sort of these tokenization more broadly, but that these new forms of money and assets are a much larger part of the total amount of value, financial value in the economic system. And ultimately, you know, we, we want to help create applications and utilities that, um, make the, the, the financial world, at least, um, safer, more global, more innovative, more inclusive, um, and higher velocity. Like, I think our, our mission is to increase global economic prosperity through the frictionless exchange of value. And, um, exchange of value is, is a concept that people often hear, and they think, "Oh, you're talking about payments." Well, no, I'm actually not. Like, value exchange is, I'm, I am in a labor contract with you, and I'm going to work for you, and I'm going to give you my labor, and you're going to give me income. Or value exchange is, I'm going to sell you this product that you need to build your product, and there's value exchange, right? Value exchange is, uh, I, I want to borrow from you, and, and you're going to lend to me. There's so many types of value exchange. Where value exchange is, I'm going to invest in your project and be a stakeholder in your project, and as the project generates returns, I'm going to get a return as well. So, there's so many types of value exchange. We want to see, you know, frictionless value exchange at a scale that we have frictionless information exchange, and frictionless communications, and frictionless commerce, and frictionless software distribution. We want frictionless value exchange. And that can happen in 10 years. And be, because I think that can happen, and it can have the same kind of, like, in these other areas of the internet, these sort of, like, millionx increases in, in the output of the thing, the amount of communication in the world, the amount of information in the world, the amount of software in the world, it's like a million times larger than it was before the internet transformed it. So, the amount of value exchange that can happen in the world, I think, can, like, millionx. I don't know exactly what that looks like, but it can, like, millionx. And, and that, what that should mean is that global prosperity has increased. That we have played a role in driving economic velocity. And as I, as I like to say, economic velocity is the lifeblood. It is the, it is the, the, the core of of growing prosperity. And so, that's what we're trying to do. There's a, we want to be, we want to play a big role. And, and I, and I, I view Circle as a company that we, we really, we really want to work with everyone. Um, and, um, and so, hopefully, uh, hopefully something like that will emerge.
>> Well, I will, uh, I will just say this before I let you go. I encourage all viewers and listeners of this, uh, podcast or vlog, whatever you want to call it, go back and read the Jeremy's, uh, letter on the prospectus. These are the types of founders you want to get to know, the ones you want to trust and bet on. I mean, Jeremy is one of the most trusted people in this industry. Go back and read that letter. Take notes. Hit me with some comments. I'm curious on your thoughts after you read something like that. Jeremy Lar, thank you for joining us here. I appreciate it.
>> Thank you, Brian.
>> Thank you. All right, that's it for the, uh, Opening Bid Unfiltered podcast. Like I always say, hit me with those comments on the, uh, major platforms, YouTube, podcast, you name it. I love all the feedback. It makes me better at doing these interviews. We'll talk to you soon.