Robert Moore: Seven Elements of Spiritual Transformation

All right, so today we will continue with Dr. Robert Moore's terrifying [Laughter] material. The thing that terrifies me the most is that this is that the it wishes to be treated respectfully; that is a that that is something that feels to me exactly right. And when it comes forward, um, in the midst of these disentangled, chaotic, uh, racial connections and broken connections with Europe and various countries, we are nuts, and so we're not liable to treat the it with respect. That right, Robert? So I said I I would open the frame to uh, spiritual Reflections, Reflections on spiritual transformation. And um, let me just say this, that um, when you're when you're speaking uh, scientifically, uh, you're using a certain very limited kind of language. I mean, uh, um, you're you're seeking to uh, to base what you what you're saying on things that that uh, have a lot of empirical evidence of some kind, uh, uh, um, research evidence, clinical evidence, uh, various uh, evidence based on uh, uh, interdisciplinary research. But you're you're self-consciously trying to be uh, aware that you're uh, limiting what you're talking about to to stuff that that other folks can work with and uh, see, verify, work with you on, trying to tell based on evidence and so forth whether what you're talking whe whether your theory of something is is false or correct or false based on actual uh, testing.

In this uh, discussion, we have to understand that when you begin speaking of spiritual things, you enter just by virtue of when you begin speaking about spiritual things, you are already in the realm of the Mythic imagination and the symbolic discourse. So in in other words, the language we have to use about these things is language that's uh, stretched language and uh, let me just share a couple of assumptions you have to have uh, to be uh, using Mythic uh, the Mythic of imagination and symbolic language and and talking about spiritual things. But there are some things that I assume about this. I assume that all uh, Mythic and symbolic formulations are imperfect, all of them. All language is inadequate really to talk about spiritual things. I think you heard some of that in the songs I mean we've been singing. I mean there's an acknowledgement that language is inadequate through that, but we're humans, we we have we try talk about these things and uh, so so um, I like to even say that all uh, spiritual assertions are in some way idolatrous. All spiritual assertions are in some way idolatrous because it's not possible for a human uh, to speak things perfectly about Divine things. And uh, um, so uh, the this is just some of the assumptions. If you think you can speak perfectly about Divine things, that would be in my view an example of grandiosity. See? And so so uh, that that is my some of my fundamental assumptions. In other words, uh, we come from a lot of different spiritual tribes here and uh, and my assumption about any spiritual tribes languaging of of the things of the spirit, they're all flawed and all limited. And uh, my basic feeling is we should spend a lot more time asking how our own are flawed and limited rather than uh, how someone else's are flawed and limited. Um, and that's uh, Shadow work we call that uh, that that that religious and tribal spiritual Traditions find it very hard to do.

So this is just I'm just laying out some assumptions, but what I want to do uh, uh, fairly quickly is to is to uh, just lay out for you what I believe to be uh, seven key elements of spiritual transformation, and I want to go through that uh, fairly fast. And I will say this and have to invite you um, uh, to uh, where your spiritual reflection hats here, but from my point of view, when you move to spiritual reflection, I don't think it cancels out scientific reflection. In my view, uh, integrative science and integrative spirituality have to be partners. H They have to have mutual respect, but I'm going to talk about seven elements that I think are very important and time anyone is involved in a in a spiritual transformation process. Now I'm going to present these these in my view are are interrelated, so they're not necessarily linear. I could order these in a different way, but uh, but I think that each one of us here um, is struggling with each of these elements at some level. So let me just get started, uh, um, if one is going to be spiritually transformed, uh, and I'm a person that believes in uh, huge possibilities for Spiritual transformation, huge possibilities, one needs a vision of what is possible. And I say you need a vision of what is possible for your spiritual transformation. That does not mean you may have one, and uh, I'd like to just have you think about why that may be, and you can ask yourself, do I have a vision of what is really possible for my spiritual transformation, for my spiritual attainment? Yeah, excuse me. So you need a vision because if you don't have a vision, you may think that the place you are is the place you have to be, you know, and there are a lot of people who really cannot see beyond sort of the Horizon that they're looking out of, and they in in short they have little hope. So one needs a vision, whether one has one or not, and uh, because if you have a vision, then you can then you can uh, uh, strive toward that with whatever energy uh, you can muster that sort of thing.

The second thing you need is a kind of a diagnosis of what's wrong that's keeping you from moving toward that. Not only may I not have a vision of where I might move what I might move toward, I may not have a clue about what is happening in me that is uh, stunting my development or slowing me down. If you don't have an assess of what is wrong, then it's awfully hard to address the problem, right? Uh, and so there are a lot of folks that are sort of in a a very bad place; they're in a very they're in a very bad place spiritually, and uh, and they haven't been helped by anyone to try to get some sense of uh, from any Mythic perspective what is wrong. A lot of things can be blocking you, and unfortunately they're usually very multi-dimensional and complex. But third, you need e even if you had those two things, you need courage to face what might be possible for you. As I have worked with people over the years, it's become very evident to me that if one is flagging in Courage, you will go to denial because it's too overwhelming. But a lot of folks have a tremendous uh, difficulty in having courage, and I thought and thought of thought about this a long time, trying to figure out why don't people have courage, and then it began to be more and more clear to me that uh, there's another element you have to have: energy, or you will not have courage. And so if you don't have energy and therefore you don't have courage, you won't be able to face either what's possible for you, and you certainly won't be able to face what's wrong.

Now how does one have energy here? I agree uh, with um, the great Paul Tillich. I think you have you get energy through faith. Now Faith um, I also use I use this the way uh, that Tillich used it, so you sort of either have it or you don't. It doesn't mean you believe something; it doesn't mean you feel a certain way; it doesn't even mean you will a certain thing. Faith means that in fact discernably you're hooked up to something that pulls you together, that has juice. You're hooked up to something we can say this that mediates juice. I like to say. So there's a kind of a phenomenological thing about faith, that is to say, if you see, everyone has some Faith or they would be dead; all of their systems would be fragmented Ed and and quiescent. Faith is that phenomenon of yourself being pulled together; there is something pulling you together, pulling you together against the forces that would try to destroy you. And so it pulls you together and enables you to stand into your life. So it's not not a question of do you have faith. By the virtue of the fact that you're sitting here, you have faith. The issue is how powerful is this. If I really look carefully at myself, is what I'm hooked up to, am I getting enough juice through this pulling me pulling me into integration that I can resist the fragmenting forces that are coming at me from without and within? So all of us at any particular time are somewhere uh, on a kind of a Continuum. You will notice that uh, some days you actually have more faith than others, and it's something you just simply can look at it: am I am I being pulled together so that I can step into my life with courage and face my possibilities and face uh, those things which are uh, trying to kill me. You know, does that make sense? Okay. And one of the things to do when you know I always do when I'm uh, teaching people uh, about you know, U spiritual direction or spiritual leadership, as I say what you do with with with anyone is you simply try to look and see what the state of faith in this person is, and then you look at what their faith is in. In other words, you you put it this way: what is mediating their faith? Because they may think their religion is religion A, and they may have very hard very P passionate commitment to this dogma of this religion, but if you look close at [Music] them, they may be hooked up and be connected to the juice through a person; it may be coming in through a person; it may be coming in through an image of themselves. You folks that are really wonderful uh, you know uh, you know your faith can actually be in an image of yourself, and the interesting thing is that if you're getting the juice that's pulling you together and enabling you to stand against the destructive forces in your life, it is working somewhat. And I started out by saying there's a way in which all faiths are idolatrous to some degree, so uh, even idolatrous faiths are faiths, and because they mediate power, they mediate juice that pulls a person together to some degree or the other. So as you're looking at yourself on this spiritual issue, you can ask yourself, well, how how is my faith am you know am I am I accessing energy that's pulling me together so I can step into my life, resist the forces of Destruction that are trying to destroy me? What is mediating it to me? Where am I connecting with it? Maybe a woman, you know, maybe a a career fantasy, follow me, uh, but if you look closely, there is there is some place where you're hooked in, where you're plugged in. I like to say you're plugged in somewhere. See, it's very important to look at that because uh, a faith can be in something uh, that is really going to disappoint you later. Yeah, see? And U and uh, so but but the fifth thing is is faith, the element of Faith, because if you have no faith, even idolatrous Faith, it's you can say like this: idolatrous faith is better than no faith at all, see, because without ad without faith, I mean it you know uh, then you're in real danger of uh, of dis having your despair kill you.

One of the things we all struggle with is Despair, and you can tell when your faith is low, your despair is rising; that's a rule. And you know, despair is not you know, a lot of people treat despair like it's a back ache, chronic back problem or something, sciatica, but unfortunately despair is not like sciatica; it's like melanoma. If if you didn't get anything else what I'm talking about today than that, it's that's important to get: despair is aggressive like melanoma, and if if you are noticing despair in your life, you have got to attend to your faith, faithing ASAP, because if you don't attend into your faith ASAP, there's a certain finite period of time that you have before that despair will metastasize and take you down, and it has a lot of different forms of taking you down; you could probably write each of you write write your own book about what how despair affects you. Now our forebears in all these different tribes understood that there was another element in spiritual transformation, uh, and I say our forebears because uh, modern folk have gone real sort of brain dead on this one and uh, begun to act this out unconsciously, and that is sacrifice. Sacrifice is always a part of authentic spiritual transformation. Now what was it that our ancestors knew, and I don't mean just the darara, although they knew it, um, if you've studied with Martin, you know that the I knew it well, the Jews knew it, and the Zoroastrians knew it and so on. What is it that they knew? Well, there is something great; it wants something from me. If I want the resources I need for life, I'm going to have to offer it what it wants, and if I offer it something worthy, maybe it will return something back to me that will enable me to live, me and my family, me and my community, me and my Village, me in my world. Do you follow that? Now so that that is I just recently uh, did a seminar on the archetype of sacrifice and uh, and in the course of studying this, doing cross-cultural studies of sacrifice uh, th those are the elements. This sacrifice element we've now learned, you know, it can be either conscious or unconscious. So in other words, here's the situation: you will sacrifice, period. I may know I may feel deeply in my bones that that uh, that there needs to be a sacrifice, and uh, I may well decide it's you that needs to be sacrificed. Human beings have had a long history of that, but we're going to sacrifice you in order that the world continue to work. There's always sacrifice; it's whether you know you're sacrificing or not, you're going to sacrifice. Okay, so that's number six. Now if sacrifice is done consciously, it is possible to enter into an ongoing communion with the great Primal other uh, in which the flow between you and it gets to be a sort of beneficent flow. When that flow is established, if you can get into this communion consciously, then a lot of things are possible; that is to say, you will not have an energy shortage, and your courage will be better, and your susceptibility to despair will go way down, and that is when you you you actually can it is actually possible for you to experience Radiance. This is when what has been called indwelling occurs; this is when what has been called illumination occurs. Some of you have told me that you're very serious about your own uh, realization of the God within you. Our ancestors witness that it's usually accompanied by by a kind of uh, a new kind a new level of Love, uh, a new level of Peace, uh, you and I could say that uh, then you can have passion, and you can have the kind of passion that you would need if to really care about Justice in the world. So those seven elements I think um, are the last two: conscious sacrifice, conscious offering, the power of conscious offering uh, and entering into communion with the Primal other, the great other, however your tribe conceives it um, those take you to sort of the farther reaches of uh, spiritual realization, and uh, but there all of these elements are present if you you study any any uh, tradition of spirituality and you look closely, uh, these elements are present.

Well, there's this story in the New Testament, and uh, it's about the feeding of the 5000, and uh, and all these folks, these hungry, tired folks that have been following Jesus, uh, it's getting toward Nightfall, and they're they're really tired and they're hungry, and there's not anything for them. You all know this story, most most of you do. And when they kind of asked, well, what have we got? Well, we got Five Loaves and two fishes. And so um, Jesus asked that they be brought to him, and he took them, and he blessed them, these very imperfect resources, and lo and behold um, suddenly there was enough to feed all of these people. And after everyone dined um, they picked up all these baskets of things left over, all, and that's about offering; that's about what happens when you bring an imperfect, fragmentary offering authentically to the great one; that is, you know, I'm not Roman Catholic, but that's acted out every time the mass is celebrated; that's why Jung was so fascinated by the transformation symbolism in the mass, and that's why Jung believed that if you look deeply Into the Heart of alchemy, you will see a inner sacrifice ice that is modeled on the mass uh, in the heart of alchemy. So in any case, offering, and it's not that that's true in Christianity, but it's not just true in Christianity; it is that bringing, see, some traditions thought you had to bring the perfect offering, but you know that's a little grandiose. You have to bring authentically your fragmented offering, but if you bring it authentically um, uh, the great one can multiply and give it back to you in a form you can receive and use to fuel your life. So let me stop there and let me just open it up. I was thinking earlier about energy, and I don't know if this fits in for you. I want throw it out there, but for me, inspiration has a lot to do with energy, and that's from a great teacher or a great work of art or to inspire me to start spiritual path. Can you say more about that or you think that's part of if a great teacher, a great work of art, you know, that that is what's mediating that you're having a faith experience in relationship to that? Sure, I mean, I mean, see, repeat again, to the extent that that helped you pull yourself together and go forward, you got faith out of it; it was faith. And uh, it's it's important, you know, I think spiritually to to think you know consciously about, well, was it really that painting that did this, or was it something behind the painting? Was it something under the painting? Was there something beyond the painting? Well, you know, but uh, but uh, that's what the genius of merch ilot idolatrous Faith or idolatry, right? Yeah, if you really thought that it was the song that gave you the energy, that's faith. If it's thought about in some sort of simplistic literal way, it's idolatrous, but it still pulls you together and enables you to go forward. Yeah, that's right. And and so you have to understand, I I I'm too old to be perfectionistic, so so you know, I'm just happy that you have faith, the faith you have, you know, I'm happy that you have the faith you have because I would rather you have that than be uh, eaten by the dogs of Despair. You follow me? Does that make sense? But it is, if you want to really grow spiritually, then you have to actually, you know, contrary to a lot of new age stuff, I mean you actually do need to think, you know, you know, you know the mind, the Mind should not be seen to be the enemy of your Spiritual Development, uh, you know, the mind can help you reflect upon uh, where you may be um, uh, depending upon things that are going to really disappoint you cruy later and uh, might help you to start trying trying to go deeper in terms of uh, getting a more solid grounding. Yeah, or barriers to to coming up with a vision or even knowing you have a vision. Well, if I had time, what are the blocks of coming up again? Well, you know, the I from just working with people, uh, the biggest block is your Despair, and it's you know, if I had a lot of time, I would talk to a more about despair. I i'd talk to you a lot more about how how do you know when how would you recognize your despair, uh, uh, but but we all experience despair to some degree, and it's that it's that undertoe that you feel in yourself that tell that sort of drags you back and tells you you can't go forward; you can't you can't really pull yourself together; you can't really uh, become more powerful spiritually, all that that that drag, that undertoe, and I think you all have experienced that, I mean to some degree. Yeah, back here, back the safest and the best place to plug in because I get a sense from what you were saying earlier that there are some dangerous spots and that ultimately it could let you down. Well, first thing you know, look, I'm not perfectionistic; first, look at where you're plugged in honestly; look at where you're plugged in because wherever you're really getting juice, that's your dragon connection; see, that is actually what that that is actually it, and uh, and don't pathologize it; first appreciate it, be grateful for it. You know, if you're if you're a musician and

That's what you know the music uh is your where you plug in. Fantastic. See what Iotti says is that human beings, they they they can plug in anywhere and have and you study Iotti's work. He describes how people have plugged in everywhere and so so first you you see where you're plugged in. You're thankful for that, and then you I like to say then you kind of want to diversify your portfolio. You think about that, you kind of need to diversify that spiritual portfolio a little bit, you know, because some of these Investments may turn out to be really bad. It may be inran, you know, you get me, you get my drift. Totally something I never had ever experienced before. I'm just having complete thought changes as everybody talks.

And you started labeling addiction, for example. Most people, when they think they're addicted, think it's a bad thing. You're putting a face on it that actually has a face of survival. Absolutely. It gives you a sensor. I am many people do it, but the people that do it, I think, feel helpless because the word generally thrown about is that you're a bad person because you're addicted. And if you were anybody but an addicted person, be normal. You're putting a face on it that actually makes a person have a sense, I think, of feeling, I'm not so bad. This just isn't the right thing that I need to be doing. You put a better face on it than the faces that are usually thrown around. It's yeah, when you put you when you when you think spiritually, then everything you look at you have to see spiritually, everything everything, because it's all spirituality whether you know it or not.

Yeah, yeah, uh and and so the the crime of an addict is that they need Faith. Well, here we say in the mankind project, you know, I do too, and I'm addicted to some things, and uh and my job is to uh is to is to look at the sort of demonic sacrifices I'm making unconsciously, because I'll guarantee you I making demonic unconscious sacrifices. And uh one of my prayers is for for help and understanding where that is. Something killing you in in the mankind project, one of you know kind of thing that that uh one of the subtext in uh in working with with men is uh sort of the question, how are you killing yourself? You you know, in what way are you destroying your life and relationships? Let's just cut the and talk about that because it's never are you; it is how are you, period.

Yeah, back here, but at first it wasn't that way. At first it wasn't that way. In most cases, there's an old AA aphorism that says at first we drank to live, yeah, and then we live to drink. It turns there's a point in which in many of these they turn; it turns on. Yeah, that's that's what happens when when the uh when the god fails you, you know, whatever it is. Yeah, I care. I have to disagree with you right now. Maybe I have different Faith, you see, but addiction is the false consciousness; it's despair appearing as fate; despair covering God; thinking you have faith because eventually the go that addiction that these guys are talking about is going, and I'm thinking from that's a that is a different view from what I have.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I I think that there certainly is despair in it. Absolutely, absolutely. There's a lot of Despair in it, and uh but I wouldn't want you to get the idea that uh there's not despair in your faith. I mean, you got you got to understand that's an equal opportunity Scourge. Back here, one of the uh kind of new age group I ran into, their their term for sacrifice, they they didn't the sacrifice kind of gets cutting animals heads off and stuff; we don't really do that here. They call it consideration, and it's in kind of the legalistic sense, and that scares people too, because that's legalistic, not spiritual, but the the legalistic sense of consideration. There are as many versions of uh of sacrifices There Are Spiritual tribes. And so what all I'm suggesting to you is that you try to think about think about sacrifice in your life, think about what sacrifices that you're making unconsciously, and uh and if you were to become more conscious about your fragmented imperfect offering, uh how would that look? You know, if you were uh if you were to become more conscious about uh offering that imperfect uh offering.

Yeah, back here. One thing that a word that stuck out from what you said in talking about the sacrifice is that and I guess I'm more familiar with the Christian tribe, and um I think it comes out in Bur a little bit, and I know Joe cell talked about you actually those who touch the Divine; it's more like this, you know, flaming ball of fire which will probably engulf you, and but this word that stuck out for me was perhaps I think me of what I see in New Age stuff is that they it's like they form a spiritual technology, and if you follow this step then you get there, but it doesn't always happen. Was in sorcery uh that's your fantasy; your fantasy is if I do this the other is compelled to do that, and uh and uh uh in uh you know, in my view an an authentic uh uh attempt to be in communion uh you know, my responsibility has however poorly I meet it is in making the most authentic best offering I can. I'm not in charge of outcomes, you know.

Uh you're not grandiose to try to make the most authentic imperfect fragmented offering you can make. That's not grandiose at all; that is appropriate; your appropriate uh contribution uh uh you know, some of you building our ritual space, you may have felt that you weren't as good as some of the other guys, and and and what and and working on this, but you made your offering; you you've made an as authentic an offering and trying to contribute to the community as you can. Uh uh you're not in charge of the outcome of the ritual, you know. So so when when you get kind of being in charge of outcomes, that's grandiosity, you know, in my view. Somebody back here. Yeah. Everything you talked about so far, the one that grabs me in my guts this morning is we talked about Despair and how the less Faith the more Despair, and the more despair the less Faith, right, and metastasizes, and it's also contagious. Very important to understand that our forbears, our tribal forbears of all these different tribes, they knew it was contagious, and uh that's why they they were so careful about insulation uh from it. Yeah, go ahead, finish your thought.

My heart is hammering right now cuz when I I been walk looking around the cafeteria at me and I last winter I was in the depths of Despair, and I and I can look back now and realize that because there was times when I I'm realizing I didn't care if I died. I went out for a walk in the snowstorm and sat down and figured I'll just keep sitting here, and a truck was coming in an intersection, and I figured maybe I should just sit here, and and I'm looking back right now realizing I was that close to being dead because of the Despair, and it scares me to look back and realize how close I was. And when I've been looking around the lunchroom and you know at meals, I don't know if I'm the only one who sees this, but I I've seen a lot of Despair and a lot of eyes here this week, and there's despair in all of them just that because of my left experience in the last year or two that I can see it more clearly, but I see a lot of it here. I feel a lot of it here. It's very important spiritually to get to where you can see it, because if you can see it you can fight it, and uh I'm going to I'm going to stop now; I'm running out of time here, but I would say this, I want to just uh do I I want to I want to pluck I want to pluck one more string of fierceness again, okay, because one thing that I I I I want you to know about this this stuff is that you have to be fierce in the face of despair.

So in other words, if you're really flagging right now, you know, and I was your spiritual director, I would be trying to help you pray for juice to fuel your courage so you could actually fight fiercely. See, and that's another thing I wanted to make clear, and that fits with what we were talking about the last time I was talking. Your eye does not have any energy of its own, period. It may have a an image of itself that it elevates to Divinity which temporarily can fuel you, but it's really Divine energy you're hijacking through that narcissistic image. You follow me? Your eye really has no energy of its own, and this is uh uh how that the kiry guard Kirky guard understood that the little as self cannot establish itself, and that when the little L self tries to establish itself without the other, the the Primal other uh it is always going to be despair. So uh so you got to have fierceness, but you got to have juice to feel your fierceness, and if you can identify where the despair is biting you, you know, you got despair bites on you, you know, all of us do; you got you got to pay attention to where they are and how it's getting into you, and uh and then you've got to really, and I just speak, a wise man will pray; a wise man will pray, and and you don't have to know the name of the great other, because even if you did you'd probably be wrong.

What what a couple more, and then we got to stop. Yes, yes. I'm I'm interested in hearing what you said sacrifice personally and how you learned which sacrifices to make, what what your path was in that, maybe something about sacrifices that you made that were fighting off more than you could CH or mistakes you had to make. That's that's a that's a good what what sacrific have I made? That's why I emphasize unconscious sacrifice a lot, you know. Um, unconscious grandiosity Y and unconscious sacrifice, and uh uh I have unconsciously uh uh sacrificed a lot of my relational life to the grandiosity of my own mind, see. So you might say I have made an ey out of the magician archetype, you see, and uh and uh Danny's term I was talking to Danny uh um I find his term the pious uh extremely powerful because when it comes to uh my feelings about my own life, I have been a Pious in my relationality and still am in some ways, and I said to Danny, you know, I'm probably going to die a Pious uh in my relationality compared to what I know uh was possible for a human being. So I have made enormous horrific unconscious sacrifices uh that I cannot get back. Do you know what I mean? You know, and so uh when when when you talk about grief uh I have a lot of grief about that.

One more. Earlier you were um talking about sacrifice, and I felt this jolt, and I realized that I had uh sacrificed my music uh over the last decade, pretty much my family, and then I thought a little bit longer and realized it was fairly conscious, so I'm grateful for that; it was a fairly deliberate thing, but uh the kids are growing up; I just sent my daughter away, and it's time to reclaim that, and I'm interested in you know, you just said something about you can't get these things back, but you can't get those. What's the dynamic of of uh I have to find something else the offer, I suppose. You your authentic offering is what you have now, and uh and I really do believe, you know, I I believe in miracles; I really believe in miracles. I believe that life is miraculous, you know. I mean, I mean the great one has done miraculous things with me, and uh and uh and in terms of sacrifice I I pray to know what to sacrifice, you know, and now and to to try to make an offering of what time I have left and what what resources I have.

How do you feel about the sacrifice of the Lamb? How do you feel about the sacrifice of a lamb? What I feel about the sacrifice of a lamb? Any act can be undertaken from all kinds of uh of points of view and understandings, you know, so you can't tell about the authenticity of a sacrificial act uh from the outside uh you know, I mean uh I mean it's true; you can't you can't tell, and uh because this is where this inner temp if I had longer to talk I'd talk about the importance of of your trying to consciously to create your inner Temple where where it's uh where where the challenge is for you to to be able to really attain authenticity in Your Capacity to offer, and uh uh if that lamb uh is is utilized uh in in in some way that is extremely authentic, you know, I it could be a it could be a very powerful genuine spiritual act, but uh it also could be an act of sorcery and uh which I'm trying to manipulate the Divine. So uh so you couldn't watch me from the outside and tell what what it really was. Okay, I've got to stop; you stop. So anyway, I I hope you're thinking; I hope you're thinking about about how this relates, you see. If I'm speaking as a psychoanalyst, you see, um uh I am trying to deal with what presents in the psyche, and uh many many of these these same realities present, and they can be talked about in scientific language uh but uh in my personal view unless you can open up the brackets and uh face the possibility uh that that that great thing in you actually might be God, I mean uh and the fact that you don't know anything about the great other or that you don't know anything about anything Divine does not change one with the fact that that great thing in you is God, and the only thing is that your ego can uh Channel it that energy in a way that makes it hell energy. So as I agree again, I mean I have Paul till sitting here by me in this chair, I mean somebody that I deeply admire, and uh he would tell us all that uh all the energy is divine; it's even Divine when we hijack it and make it monstrous; it's still Divine energy, but we have done an evil Alchemy with our egos. So anyway, a couple one more.

Yeah, yeah, than you me um my question is you if you let's say if you're not sure where you're plugged in or maybe you're plugging into different places all the time, you have no no solid connection anywhere, but you're always plugging into something different cuz you're always plugged into something y um is it possible to still have some sort of communion when you're not sure where you're plugged in or you're constantly plugging into something? Well, you're in a kind of communion; you're in a kind of communion, but we're talking about Spiritual Development here, right? And so uh the goal would be to try to get more conscious about that, more intentional about about that communion, and uh and to realize that all those different things you're plugging into to uh you got to you got to see that there is a a capital S Source behind all those places you're plugging in; plugging in the same thing just in different places. My that my understanding is that any juice, any real juice you're getting uh is coming from a very primordial source, and uh and it's kind of important to I believe it's very important to to think about that consciously, because if you don't think about that consciously uh then you can be awfully confused about the way uh you know the particular Source you're getting it out of, and you can get real you can be real um um misled about the dependability of that Source. You know, back here abah is scenario.

Yeah, I think if you try to take a try to uh um you know, you could talk about that is uh a remnant of uh Human Sacrifice if you wanted to; some people do uh but if you were to try to take some kind of U you know, Mythic meaning out of that instead of Simply a historical phenomenon of human sacrifice, if you were to try to look at that mythologically uh it would be it would be a modeling of the seriousness with which one's intentionality has to be brought to one's offering. It would be it would be a a sort of a teaching story about intentionality about about the the U intention of of bringing uh uh One's best offering to the great other, and uh excuse me, RA yeah uh uh it's it's presented as a kind of a test in that sense, you know. Yeah, I think that's the that's the Mythic meaning I think of the story. Um, we all have got something that we don't want to offer, see, and uh and it probably is an idol, see, and um and so you know, I mean, we have a moderns have a kind of a fantasy if I if I offer I will have less; less that a modern has a moderns have the sort of a um scarcity fantasy; if I offer I will have less, when our forebears knew the only way I will have what I need and in fact in abundance is if I offer with authenticity and with authentic intention. And I just would add simply it doesn't have to be something shining and perfect; just needs to be the best you have. Right. Thank you very much; that's that's it.