Transcription
Hey Sherry, hey Lorna. Thanks for taking time to meet with me. Um, so again, the reason why I was coming by today is we were talking last time about something called a psychiatric advance directive and I was seeing if you would be interested in hearing a little bit more about it. And it sounds like you're okay with having a little bit more discussion around that, so that's what brings me here today.
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So, I want to talk to you about what this is. It's basically, in North Carolina, we have two tools that are both referred to as a psychiatric advance directive, and they're to help you with, if you were to experience a really significant crisis, they can help you in making sure that people know what your preferences are around treatment if you're in a really bad crisis.
One tool is called an advanced instruction for mental health treatment. This is where you write down instructions basically about the things you want, don't want, in terms of the care that you're getting. And it's something that, um, really would only serve as your voice if you were so sick that somebody felt like you weren't able to speak for yourself. So, it's something called incapacitated in that moment.
So, the other tool, though, is also called something called a healthcare power of attorney or a healthcare agent. And what this is, is where you select somebody who would serve as your voice. So, you pick somebody you trust that essentially would stand in and speak for you in terms of your decisions and preferences. So, people can choose to do both of those, an advanced instruction and a healthcare agent, or they choose to do one or the other if they want to create a PAD.
Um, if I had a PAD, what would be the point of having a healthcare pathway? Good question. So, if you had advanced instruction, so those instructions that we were just talking about, um, the benefit of having somebody speak for you is that sometimes the instructions aren't covering everything that you may want that may come up that has a question and somebody needs to make a decision. And also, a healthcare agent can also speak in regards to healthcare concerns, not just mental healthcare concerns. So, they cover you more fully in case there were some kind of accident. So, those are reasons why sometimes it's helpful to have that person standing in versus just having written instructions.
Okay. Um, so if you're okay with hearing a little bit about those, I'd like to talk more and maybe first ask a few questions about some of your treatment experiences in the past. So, when you think back about the outpatient treatment you've received, do you think there's ways in which it could have gone even better?
Um, yes, because I had a hard time getting in contact with anybody. People, they wouldn't return my calls. I couldn't get in when I felt I needed to see somebody. Nobody would call me back. Like, I was kind of out there on my own.
Okay, so it sounds like communication was a big problem. And also, just to make sure you're including us too. So, without patient treatment, we as an ACT team are also your outpatient provider. So, do you find that that's been a struggle too with us, with communication?
Well, a little bit, because I'm just working with so many people and I don't feel like anybody really knows me, okay? Or I'm just comfortable with anybody yet, okay? Have different people working with me.
Okay. Us or any other outpatient mental health provider, um, did we have all the information that would be needed to provide you with the best care? What else would be helpful for us or other providers to know, you think?
Well, I think if, if I was in the hospital for a crisis, it would be good if that staff communicated with my ACT team to just know what I'm like when I'm not in a crisis and what meds work for me, because I feel like all my meds get changed when I'm in the hospital and I have to start over from scratch. That's frustrating.
Okay, so I'm hearing a couple of things from you. So, as you were saying before, communication is a big piece of this. So, being able to make sure that people are hearing the information that's important to providing with the best care, what it's like for you when you're feeling okay versus when things are not going okay. And then also knowing what is current with the medications.
Okay. What about with, um, so you're just referring to the treatment you've received in, in the hospital, and it sounds like a way it could have gone better is that communication between inpatient and outpatient staff. Is there anything else that you can think of about your experience with being in a hospital that could have gone even better?
Well, yes, again, that goes back to if they know what I'm like when I'm feeling manic. You know, I like to be around people and I don't necessarily know personal boundaries. I don't, you know, respect those so much when, um, manic, and some people interpret that as me being aggressive, and it's not okay. And so I've been, you know, isolated or put in seclusion before, and I'm claustrophobic, and that just makes things worse.
Yeah. Okay, so having kind of a reference point in terms of how you are when, again, when you're not feeling good, so people understand where those behaviors are coming from. That, as you're saying, that they may see it as aggression, but it's really not aggression from where you're thinking and your thoughts are at, right? Okay. And being put in seclusion restraints is really bad for you because it's bad for anybody, but even worse when you have problems with claustrophobia, it sounds like. Okay.
Have you ever been involuntarily committed to the hospital?
Yes.
Okay. How, what was that experience like for you?
Well, at the time it was terrible. My mother, um, committed me and I was very angry and it caused some problems with us for a while, but since, you know, kind of realized where she was coming from by doing that and we've worked through it.
Okay. Is there anything you can think that would have prevented that unrolling in the way that it did, leading to the commitment?
Probably if somebody had been checking in with me at home, coming by, you know, to check on my house and what it was looking like and how I was acting at the time, making sure I was taking my meds. Okay. Which hopefully now, with being with the ACT team, that's helping with, we're doing a little bit more of that.
That's good to know. And so it sounds like, um, you know, as I was just talking about a few minutes ago, that a psychiatric advance directive really is a place for you to put down your preferences and instructions in some ways around what you want when you are feeling really bad and in a crisis, in case that you can't speak for yourself. And with a lot of things that you were just sharing, it sounds like those are things that would be really helpful to put in some psychiatric advance directive, either in the form of those instructions or appointing somebody who can serve as a representative for you and make sure that they know those instructions. Which creating both would help with that. So, wondering if it may be something to be interested in, because we can use it to document the medications you find to be helpful, the people you want to have contacted if you're in an emergency, your psychiatrist specifically, if you think that would be helpful, ways you want to be treated. So, you can even put in there instructions around, "I have claustrophobia and seclusion really aggravates my symptoms more than anything." You know, you can put those things in there too. Does it sound like something you'd be interested in?
Yeah. Great. Um, and just so you know, we will help you through all this. Um, and at the end, we will get some witnesses to have witnesses sign it, somebody does something called notarizing it, which basically they just confirm that you are you and that they stamp it to show that. Um, and also help with making sure that the places that you may encounter if you were sick have a copy of it, because it won't help you if they don't have access to the PADs. We'll help with getting those copies out to everyone too.
We want to cover a few things in terms of just letting you know that as much as we think these things are good and have a lot of potential to make sure that your wishes are being heard, they're not foolproof in terms of things won't necessarily go your way with the psychiatric advance directive. So, there's a few limitations I'd like to just comment on. Um, one is that if you change your mind over time with what you want to happen and we don't update the PAD along the way, then the PAD won't always reflect your current wishes unless we try to keep up with making sure it's current. Okay.
Um, also, the person you may pick to be a healthcare agent may not follow everything that you would want to do. So, there's some trust there and, and making sure that they know what your preferences are. Um, and they may also choose not to serve in that role too. And we'll talk more about that. So, there's nothing that legally binds them to having to have to be your healthcare agent, but you're identifying somebody who could serve in that role if it comes up. Okay. Some preferences you put in there may not be followed for different reasons. So, you can put in there preferences around hospitals, but if there's no bed available or if it doesn't accept your insurance, then you have to, they'd be looking for a different option. And also, there's times where you may put in there things about medications and the doctor may choose to go a different route with what they end up giving you. So, there's times where they won't follow everything that's necessarily in a psychiatric advance directive.
What if I say that I don't want a medicine? Will they still give me that medicine?
That's a good question. Um, our sense is that if you are stating that you don't want a specific medication and you put the reason why, it would be unlikely that they would give that particular medication. They would look at alternative medication. So, it's unlikely for them to go directly against your explicit wishes of saying, "I do not want something." I think sometimes when you say you want a certain medication and they're finding that that medication probably wouldn't help you and could potentially create more harm with side effects, that they would use their best clinical judgment and basically give something else. So, it'd be more of giving you, not giving you something you may have wanted, versus forcing you to try to, trying to get you to take something that you don't want. And as you know, um, they can't force medications on you unless they were to go through a lot of legal steps to ever do that anyway. So, it's a big deal to give somebody medication they're saying that they don't want. Okay.
Okay. Also, doctors can still seek out an involuntary commitment even if you have a psychiatric advance directive. So, this isn't something that necessarily keeps you out of being committed again if you met the criteria for commitment. Okay.
So, moving forward with this, sounds like you're interested in hearing more about it. Nothing commits you to doing it. If we go through it, you feel like there's something you actually don't want, that's okay. We can move it to the side and see if you want the other piece of it, the healthcare agent. So, we'll start with the advanced instructions part. Any questions at all?
All right. So, I'm going to take out, this is the actual legal document that we're going to be filling out. You can choose to read through this yourself, or I can help with paraphrasing it.
I want you to help with that. You want me to paraphrase it?
Okay. And then also, if you want to do the writing in it yourself, here you can do that, or I can write for you.
You do it.
Okay. So, just to kind of hit some points in here, because it's a legal document, and the legal document part of it, again, isn't that they are legally bound to follow everything in here, but they are legally required to look at it and consider your wishes and preferences. So, it's basically just putting a little bit more oomph in making sure that people are really hearing you in terms of what you're wanting.
So, this front part is essentially saying that you're doing this because you're choosing to, nobody's forcing you to do it. Um, and that it is that legal document. So, we'll write your name in here. But then it asks that if you were having crisis symptoms, what would those look like? So, what does it look like for you when you're experiencing a crisis? What symptoms do you experience?
Well, first I spend a lot of money on household things. So, you come by my house and see bags and bags of stuff sitting around and probably no food in the future.
Okay. Anything like that? Um, again, probably when I came here to, you know, for my appointments or whatever, I would be talking to people, hugging them. Yeah, kind of loud.
Loud hugging. Yes. So, as you were mentioning earlier, it's almost like you're excited to see people and it's coming from a friendly place, but perhaps there isn't a recognition of the boundaries and so you're touching more and engaging in that kind of way, right? Maybe a little more intensity to you. Okay. And then, as you're saying, going to your house, we would see the evidence of that necessities aren't being taken care of for, and instead you're doing a lot of shopping for things and there'd be bags accumulating, right?
Okay. Okay. Anything else that comes to mind in terms of crisis symptoms where things are kind of falling apart?
All right. Okay. This next section is that's about medications and everything. I'm jotting down here for my notes. I'm going to cleanly write up or type and I, I would not try to seek out us getting it signed and notarized until we make sure that we capture truly what you wanted, just so you know. So, I'm just going to take notes here for now.
So, for medications, this section is asking about, is there any psychiatric medications that you'd like to request when you experience a crisis? So, these may be things you're currently on or things that you find to be helpful only at times when you're really sick.
Okay. Zyprexa and Ativan.
Okay. And would you want your psychiatrist to be contacted to just double check on current medications?
Yes.
Okay. Okay. Any medications you do not want to receive when experiencing a crisis?
So, no lithium.
Can you explain why?
Because I became toxic and I had to go on dialysis.
Oh, wow. Okay. So, we would include that. Juice. We would say the reasons why you do not want lithium. Okay. And as we talked about earlier, even though you're saying Ativan and Zyprexa, they may have reasons why they don't feel like those are appropriate at the time. Ativan, sometimes they're cautious with because it's a medication that people can abuse. And there's a place later in here that we can even write a little bit about more about that in terms of what your substance abuse history is or anything related to these drugs. Okay. And we want to put that in there. That's good information for them to know. Okay.
So, the next one's about where you would want to go and receive treatment from in terms of hospitals. Um, so would you like to consent in advance to being admitted to a hospital or other facility in case you cannot decide for yourself? So, you, this would be used as actual consent or admission to a hospital.
I do.
You want to put, so sounds like yes, and you want to specify Duke, right? So, what that means is that you would give advanced consent to admission to Duke. It doesn't necessarily mean that it's advancing consent to any place, but you're specifying that you would give advanced consent to Duke. Okay. Um, so that's a preference for Duke. Is there any place that you want to specifically say that you don't give consent to be admitted to?
Central Regional.
Central Regional. Okay. Okay. So, if, if they felt like, um, you needed to go in the hospital, Duke did not have any beds, and say UNC did, because UNC isn't listed here, you saying you give advanced consent could be that thing that allows them to get you in the door. Just making sure you're okay with that. But it wouldn't give consent to Central Regional. Okay.
Okay. And again, like we talked about earlier, if you were so sick and outright saying, "I don't want to go to the hospital," that's the point where they have to explore involuntary commitment procedures. They can't use this to force you in the hospital, which is a good thing because it protects your rights.
So, now we're moving on to some other instructions, particularly around emergency contacts and people that you would want to be notified. So, what would be some people that you want to have in your emergency contact list?
Could you go in there? Yeah. And if you're okay, if I can put the whole ACT team, but I'll specify myself and then also maybe the psychiatrist.
Okay. Okay. And then anyone else in terms of family or mother?
So, we'll get all that phone number information in here.
Now you're asking about crisis symptoms earlier. This next question is about anything that may cause you to experience a mental health crisis. So, things that basically are kind of like leading up to you getting sick that may be kind of fueling the fire a little bit. What would be those things?
Well, mainly as I'll stop taking my meds.
So, you stop taking medications? Yeah. That's, that's about the, the only one.
Okay. That's a big one for you. Yeah. Okay. Is there anything that you have found that helps you avoid hospitalizations? Are there things that kind of protect you or help with kind of keeping things pretty stable or good?
Well, just taking that to be one. Yeah. Okay. And, you know, contact with my family.
And contact with you guys. How often are you in touch with your family?
Again, like how often are you talking? Talk to my mom every day.
Every day. Is when you start, um, getting more manic, do you still talk to mom daily?
So, you kind of communication starts cutting off too. We may want to add that to that earlier section. Okay. So, not taking, you're so protective factors or taking medications, staying in contact with family, with the ACT team. Anything else?
That's about it.
Okay. Okay. Sometimes for people, too, um, having a good sleep schedule can help too with regulating mood.
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When you are hospitalized, how do people typically experience you? Like, what does it look like for you when you go in the hospital?
Well, I'm excited because there's lots of people to talk to and make friends.
Do you have any sense of how others experience you when you're like that? So, you mentioned that sometimes they see it as aggression, right? Okay. And then one's touching them and hugging them, and then that sometimes turns into them acting out, right? Okay. They feel afraid, and then sometimes it's happened where you've gone into seclusion. Okay. How have you found it to be helpful for people to interact with you when they're in the hospital? So, how can they help you in terms of their own interactions and what they're offering?
Well, the staff could try to distract me by giving me some magazines, certificates. I like fashion magazines, or they could offer me an Ativan. And that's a quick way to some anxiety, maybe exacerbating the symptoms that you're presenting with too. Okay. And helping distract a little bit may take attention off of the attention of trying to befriend everybody and be blessed with. And also, I think this would be a good place to maybe make note of the claustrophobia, that that really makes things worse for you. Okay.
Anyone you want to seek out or want to make statements around being okay that they come and visit you in the hospital, or people that you don't want visiting?
Could you come with it? Yes. So, the ACT, sounds like family is important. So, anyway, anyone you don't want?
No.
Okay. Okay. So, are we doing okay? Do you feel like we've missed anything with the questions?
Okay. Um, so the next one is asking about any specific instructions you want to put down regarding medical interventions and, and specifically calling out something called electroconvulsive treatment or shock therapy. So, sounds like you've already thought about that before. So, we can just explicitly put in there, "Do not, never, under no circumstances." So, we'll be strong in our wording there. Okay.
Um, how about with any other medical interventions? Is there anything that you think it's important for them to know about you and your care? So, anything related to high blood pressure or diabetes or anything that you want to put in there about preferences for males versus females, and anything like that?
No.
It sounds like nothing else that you thought of in terms of other healthcare stuff we want to put in here, because again, these instructions are a place that we can pretty much put anything we want. I'm not only any other company.
Okay. Um, any instructions you think that would be helpful for helping life outside the hospital stay pretty okay with employers or households?
Yes, just make sure my dog is taken care of and my bills are getting paid because I've lost my apartment before.
Do you have anyone in mind that you think can help with that?
Mom.
Okay. Does Mom have a key to your place?
Yes.
Okay. And we, with your consent, can also work with Mom to help with those things too. Okay.
All right. We're almost done with this part of it with the advanced instructions. Anything that you want to specifically instruct your inpatient health providers to be talking with your outpatient providers about?
So, I want them to tell you, well, everything that's going on.
So, you want a lot of close coordination? Yes. They have treatment team meetings in the hospital. So, we can specifically say that you want the out, plus the ACT team part of those treatment team meetings. Yes. Okay. And then, as people just restated again, about communicating around medications in particular, since they've changed them in the hospital before. Anything else you feel like we're missing?
You did mention earlier about because of Ativan sometimes raises concerns with people abusing. Do you want to put in here that you do not have any history of substance abuse?
No substance abuse history. You've been taking Ativan for about how long, you think?
Now, five years.
Okay. All right. Just went on, yeah, as needed. Yeah. Okay. All right. So, that's it for there. We're going to stop at this part because the rest of it is about getting it signed and stuff. Um, do you need a break at all? Are you doing all right?
Okay. So, the next section is, um, about the healthcare power of attorney or healthcare agent. Do you think there's anybody you'd want to appoint in that role?
So, again, so you're already, all right. So, you wanted to be somebody you trust, somebody who knows you well, um, somebody you think who would be willing to serve in that role. We can help, um, we can help you in talking with Mom to make sure that she understands what this role entails and what your wishes are too.
Could she have a copy of my advanced instruction?
That's a great question. We really encourage you to make sure she has a copy because it's the best way for her to really understand what those preferences are, and the two can work together basically in terms of the healthcare providers who are seeing and hearing your wishes.
Um, so again, with this one, so this will put aside. I'll type that up based on the notes I have here and just take out the healthcare power of attorney. So, I'm guessing, like the other one, you're okay with me summarizing this?
Yes.
All right. So, just like the other one, it's stating that you're doing this of your own will, no one's forcing you to, that it is something that serves as appointing somebody to speak on your behalf when you're in a crisis and unable to speak for yourself. Um, it only goes into effect during those times. So, you may have a crisis, but you can still speak for yourself. You haven't lost the ability to make decisions like that. So, in that case, Mom doesn't step in, you still speak for yourself. It's only in that time-limited time when you can't speak for yourself.
If I put my Mom down and she's kind of a soft-spoken person, and somebody else comes in during that time and tries to speak to how they want me to be treated, can they override her just because they are more forceful than she is?
Not if, not if they're not somebody who's listed on here. But even if they're listed on here, they, they go in the order of, if you can, you can put down more than one person to potentially serve as your healthcare agent. They start with the first person, they get in contact with that first person, and they're willing to serve that role, they then are your voice and nobody else trumps that. So, um, even if she is soft-spoken, and maybe that's something you want to talk to Mom about is about how to be able to assert herself on your behalf, or just say she always needs to have this document with her. Yeah. We can talk about ways in which there's ways we can upload it to a safe, secure place, um, that the state maintains, and then you guys get a password. And that way, you don't have to physically feel like you always have to have a copy with you. Okay. So, that's another thing we can have as an option to make sure you have full access to it.
So, what this entails then is Mom only steps in temporarily as your healthcare agent at the time you can't speak for yourself. As you'll see, this is actually a little different than the advanced instructions because it covers both the mental health part of treatment and also physical healthcare part. So, if you were to have a significant accident, we're in a coma, present, you know, as an example, then that would be when during that moment Mom would be stepping in and speaking for you in terms of healthcare needs.
So, we'll go through the powers that the healthcare agent has. They have broadened sweeping powers until you limit them. So, you can choose to say, "I actually don't want Mom to have the power to speak on my behalf for this thing." We just cross that out and make a note of it. Okay. So, we'll get Mom's contact information and put it down here. And do you have anyone else in mind that you'd want to list because you can list more than one?
Okay. And just to be clear, because sometimes this comes up too, we cannot serve as a healthcare power of attorney because it's seen as a conflict of interest. If somebody is seen as more of a care provider, they can't serve as your healthcare agent. If you had previously appointed anybody in this role, this trumps those previous appointments.
It sounds like you probably have it. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Um, the other legal summary part here is to say that again, the healthcare agent, in this case, Mom, will do her best to speak on your behalf, but she's not legally liable if she misspeaks on things that actually you wouldn't have preferred. So, we'll touch on that again towards the end, but there's a lot of safety coverage for healthcare agents around not having to be perfect and speaking on your behalf. Okay. In her having a copy of your advanced instructions will help with making sure that she knows, again, what your wishes are.
So, now digging into this piece. So, we have Mom's information down. Another one thing that we can do is somebody has to evaluate you and deem you incapacitated. So, basically, you can't make decisions for yourself in that moment. That has to be a physician or a psychologist or psychiatrist that does that. Anybody who's available can do it. Do you want to specify that you want a certain doctor, psychiatrist, or physician who first sees you and does that assessment, if possible?
I'm a doctor here.
Okay. So, we'll put the doctor's information. So, if they can get a hold of Dr. Brandeshwag and she can come in and do that, then she would do it. But otherwise, if they can't reach her, somebody else would end up doing that.
Now, here is what I was referring to earlier. These are the list of powers that they have. We can read through these fully, or you can read through them, or I can try to do summary statements for each of them for you.
Summaries. Okay.
All right. And again, the list includes mental health related stuff and stuff that's more specific to physical health. And there's two sections where we can speak to each of those in terms of, you want to set any limits. Again, so starting with healthcare decisions. With the first one, it's basically saying that you're okay with Mom exchanging information for the sake of your treatment. So, is that okay?
Okay.
How about with hiring and firing any kind of doctor or provider for the sake of healthcare? Can you have that more?
Okay.
Next one is admitting you to a facility. So, she can stand in for your voice and give consent to admission for healthcare. You're okay with that?
Yes.
All right. Next one would be giving consent to any kind of assessment or treatment of physical concerns, which can include surgery. Are you okay with her speaking on your behalf for that?
Yes.
All right. And then the next one is around withholding of life-sustaining procedures. If you were to have some very, very serious thing happen where you're terminally ill, permanently in a coma, very severe dementia, so things that are very serious. Are you okay with her speaking on your behalf to talk about that?
So, yeah. Oh, good. Good. So, you've had those conversations before around wishes. Good.
Um, and then also making decisions around what to do with your remains and body, if something like that were to happen to you. And again, having her know what your preferences are. Yeah. Important. So, it sounds like in terms of physical healthcare stuff, you're okay with the powers that are already listed here.
Yes.
No limitations. All right. Next one is the mental healthcare part of it. So, again, are you okay with her exchanging information for the sake of mental health stuff?
Yes.
Treatment, hiring, firing providers?
Yes.
All right. How about with admitting to mental health facilities?
Yes.
Now, the advanced instructions, you explicitly said you preferred Duke and did not want Central Regional. Are you okay with Mom speaking on your behalf to admit to Central Regional?
Well, she knows that I don't want to go there.
Should we, do you want to make a note of that?
Yes.
You don't necessarily give her, okay. Yes. And we'll put in here, there's a way in which you alert them reading this that they know that there's that advanced instructions too, but we'd like them to both read the same. Okay. So, no consent to CR by Mom with regard to her giving consent for mental health treatment, which would include ECT, because you've said no ECT before, so strongly. This would be a place we want to restate it again that Mom cannot give consent. Okay. ECT. Any, uh, any other restrictions you'd like to put on her in terms of giving consent for certain mental health treatments at all?
All right. Okay. That's it for the mental health portion of this. Um, we will make a note in here in a section that asks to make sure that they know that you do have an advanced instruction. And there's also a question in here or comments that we can respond to around, if, if things were to really get bad, where somebody who, um, is really sick and they can't make decisions for themselves, it's no longer considered just incapacity, but they also lack competence by the law. Guardianship could be sought out for somebody who's in that situation, which is basically a long-term healthcare agent. Would you want Mom considered to be a guardian if that were to come up?
Okay.
Okay. And as we said before, if you had any other previous healthcare agents, this one would replace that one. You want to keep us up to date if things were to change and you didn't want Mom to be the healthcare agent. And also with, um, I want to make sure that with some of these points at the end here, that you understand that she would be doing her best to represent your wishes and preferences, and that is not liable to you necessarily. However, there's exceptions to that around wording like willful misconduct or gross negligence. So, it's not that you could never have a situation where a healthcare agent does really, really wrong by the person that they're being serving as a healthcare agent for, but for the most part, they're protected because if there was a risk of them being sued for everything, then nobody would ever want to be a healthcare agent, right? Also, if, if Mom were to say, "Go ahead, doctor, do X, Y, Z," doctor does X, Y, Z, and you come back to having your capacity and being able to make decisions again, and you get mad because the doctor did that, you can't necessarily sue the doctor either because he's protected by the law around following what your healthcare agent did.
We're all done with this. And I'm going to take these notes. I'm going to type everything back up. We're going to take, we're going to take a look at what I typed to make sure I didn't get anything wrong, or we don't want to add anything. And then we will go in front of two witnesses that are familiar with you and a notary and get these signed up, stamped. And I'll talk to you more about this registry that's available that we can help with getting that uploaded if you want to, and you get a password, and it's just easier access to it. And then also help with getting copies out to the hospitals that you want to have in your medical chart.
I'll get a copy of it.
Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. We want you to have a copy. You're the most important person to have the copyright.