Transcription
[music] Hey everyone, welcome back to Make It Happen Mondays, where we talk about sales, business, entrepreneurship, personal growth, mental health, and everything in between with guests who I truly respect and I think make a positive [music] impact on the world around us.
Now, this one is all sales, all the time. We had a conversation with Tim [music] Castle, who is a negotiations expert. He's actually ranked in the world's top 30 negotiation professionals in 2025 by Global Gurus [music] and award-winning author of multiple bestsellers, including *The Art of Negotiations* and *The [music] Momentum Sales Model*. He's the founder of The Negotiations Edge Training Academy, which is the trusted partner for ambitious organizations that want [music] to win with integrity, trust, and build influence in an AI-centric world. [music]
So, if you're up for sales talk and negotiations and [music] tactics and frameworks and stuff like that, this is your podcast. This is one that you'll like. Although, we did explore a few things that I've been struggling with for a while. So, it was really good to hear his perspective on some stuff. But, as always, we talked about his background and he grew up, uh, actually his history, his family is a bunch of inventors. So, it [music] kind of put him in a unique position as a kid. He had it in his blood. But then he got into psychology and really took hold of negotiations at an early age and became really good at it.
Quite frankly, [music] one of the things I talked to him about, though, was the, you know, the fine line between influence and manipulation. And, you know, how good sales reps influence, bad sales reps manipulate [music] and the concept of the ends justifying the means. And this is one that I've always struggled with, right? I always say you have to believe in what you sell in order to be successful, right? But the caveat to that is that you believe in what you sell and it does good for other people, right? Um, and good is a subjective term because, you know, I could convince myself that selling you this stock is going to make you a millionaire, and I'm [music] going to manipulate you to get that stock, and, you know, because ultimately it'll be good for you, but it's probably not. So that was when I was really, really trying to understand [music] from his perspective what that line is.
So, we talked also about how to prep for negotiations, how to increase your liability, stuff like, you know, [music] in a world of AI, how do you build trust? And he's got a good framework around that. So, and actually super tactical stuff like [music] how'd you come up with your price? Like dealing with those type of objections. So, if you are looking for some perspective on negotiations and some good ideas and tips, you're going to love this one. Hope you enjoyed the conversation as much as I did. Let's make it happen.
>> Tim Castle, welcome to the Make It Happen Monday podcast, my friend. How you doing today?
>> I am doing great and thank you for for having me.
>> Yeah, thanks. We were just chatting. You're in Singapore. It's about 10:00 at night, so I appreciate you you're coming on late here, but uh, I want to get to how you got to Singapore. Um, but let's start with the origin story like I always start with and this is the stuff that I can't read on LinkedIn. So I know you're psych, I know we we'll dive into your psychology degree uh coming out of University of London. Uh, but I want to see how you got there. So talk about like parents, upbringing. How did you catch the bug for business, entrepreneurship, psychology, all that fun stuff. What shaped you as a child? And then let's get into your college and the way you got through today.
>> I like that, shaped me as a child. So, I come from a family of inventors. Actually, if you go right back to like the 18th century, I'm from England. I'm from the East Midlands. And my middle names are James Stevenson. And Stevenson sounds like a a second name because it actually is. It's George Stevenson, who was my great great uncle who invented the Stevenson's rocket, uh, which was one of the first steam trains. And the James, believe it or not, comes from James Beeching. And if you go back, it's like 1853 or something, he invented along with his friends the first self-writing lifeboat. So that in itself says I'm destined to be quite curious in that sense.
>> I was going to say it's in your DNA. But um, how we got or how I got to Singapore is I started off uh my career as a negotiator and doing what we call corporate barter. And about the time of the global financial crisis, the job market was terrible as you as you can imagine. And at the same time, marketing budgets were dwindling for big big clients, brands that had assets. So, for example, you can imagine a big auto dealership. They've got tons of cars already made sitting there in fields and just an asset that is depreciating and it's on their books. And what would happen is a barter company will come along and they will take whatever stock and it can can be distressed stock as well. So, it can be things like milk, it can be things like paint, can be anything. And you turn it into media spend. So you're negotiating between media agencies and media publishers. And at the time, the industry didn't have a good reputation because it's very easy to to cut corners and short change and not expand budgets like the promise. And so I got a firsthand kind of firsthand view of some of the best negotiators in the world doing multi multi-million, 100 million, huge deals that weren't always well-received. Yet, they always made it through. Right? It was it was this negative impression and you're just coming to take money from me. And then when they left, you would see that, no, we've created value. And so this really opened up my kind of flare for negotiation. I really enjoyed that. We were negotiating like 10, 20 deals a day just out with people building long-term relationships. And so that job took me to Australia and
>> Can I pause here for a second?
>> Yeah.
>> I want to I want to ask about that because because well, and I was going to get into like negotiation tactics and approaches and stuff like that, but there's one thing that I struggle with a lot. You know, you said that there were multi-million dollar deals and they, you know, didn't have the good feeling, but ultimately after they left, they realized it was in their favor, right? There's the ends justify the means is what I struggle with a lot in sales. And the balance between belief in what you do and the ends justifying the means. Cuz I always say the number one thing you need to be successful in sales is is a belief in what you do. Like, you got to believe that what you do. But there's a caveat to that in for me, which is that it makes a positive impact. Like that you believe that it makes a positive impact to people and it actually does. Because some people justify what they're doing with the thought process that the ends justify the means because ultimately, like all those sleazy, you know, Wolf of Wall Street, right? I guarantee you they, in their head, convince themselves that, hey, if this person, well, some of them, if this person buys this stock, eventually they're going to make a ton of money. So, I'm going to manipulate the [ __ ] out of them to get them to do this because ultimately they're going to make some money on this, right? And I think a lot of people in sales convince themselves that they what they're doing is right, even if it is or not, and and and use that to manipulate people and then say, "Okay, well, look, the ends justifies some things because eventually they're going to get this." And I struggle with that balance there, a belief in what you do, but a belief in what's right and really right. And then convincing versus helping. So, could I know that's a lot. Could you help me unpack a little bit from your perspective of what you learned there?
>> Yeah, I'd love to. And I I think that was that is the essence of what you've got to do when you're going into an industry that always already has a bad reputation or has been tarnished in some way. And some of these clients have actually been burned on all stages of the ecosystem and they've probably attracted the worst types of salespeople as well. So you've got these bad actors, these bad characters. The way that you break through that is to simplify the complex, to talk to people with respect so that they understand it. They just come and they sit down with you. We were doing back of the napkin math to show them this math is expanding the budget, you're getting incremental money. And the thing is is it can work for everybody as long as you're able to get to that transparent level of conversation, which really, if we break this down, has nothing to do with the value and belief. Like my motto is, believe it's possible, right? That's my motto in life. And I do only want to work for companies that I fully believe we've got value. I think everyone should. If you've got value it running through you, you can walk into any room and and sell properly because you you understand where it can fit in their problem statement. But the real thing comes down to trust and relationship building. And so that is really your authenticity. I think when people are trying to persuade or manipulate, what they're doing is is they're either leveraging a situation by basically manipulating and saying there's no way out of this. This is happening and you just have to jump on board. Whereas I think there's this respect element of, look, let me let me make you an expert in this because I want to show you how all the other sharks out there are going to pull the wool over your eyes and why this is different. And if you can do that, you've created an advocate, but you've also armed yourself against the rest of the industry. So, it's about actually changing the whole industry and upskilling and educating and not being afraid if the deal doesn't happen, right? That the deal is kind of second.
>> So, because this is what's interesting. I I've been So, I've mostly been in corporate sales my entire life, right? So corporate negotiations which, you know, there's there's some ethics to it in general, right? But now I'm getting a little bit into the B2C side, okay? Because I but I have an on-demand platform and, you know, I have a coaching that I'm launching, all this fun stuff. And I hate Grant Cardone, Gil Jordan Bell for like all those dudes, like ew, right? But I've been revisiting their content recently because they sell B2C solutions and some of their content is legit. And and there's this fine line between convincing and manipulating. And I look at it from that perspective of, for instance, me. If you don't close me in this, like if I'm looking for as you like a personal coach, right? Right now, and you tell me it's going to be $5,000 a month or whatever it is, right? I'm like, "Okay, you know, I've looked into this and let's talk." If you don't close me right now, the likelihood, and I probably need it, right, based on our conversation, but my my hey, I got to talk to my wife. This is a budget thing. I got to. And if you let me off the hook right there, the likelihood drops by 90% that I'm actually going to do this. And so a lot of the techniques that they use, cuz I I know you talk a lot about in your book like mindset over techniques, like 80% over over 20%. But those techniques work to get me to do something now. And and even though I kind of feel like, "Ah, [ __ ] man. You just asked that awkward question and I feel like you're doing this salesy thing, but I get it and fine, [ __ ] it, I'll do it right now." Right? So, I guess like in in corporate, how do you balance that like that the moment, right? Because as soon as you let somebody go, you lose a lot of control. you lose a lot of momentum. So, how do you balance the technique in the moment versus the authenticity of educating them through the process and all that fun stuff?
>> Absolutely. I think it comes down to intention, right? That's the biggest differentiator between whether it's manipulation or just influence. And you're the expert in the room. You're there to consult with them. You have absolutely have value to to offer and to give. You're there to serve. And so not everyone's going to be right. You shouldn't be trying to sell every single person. And that's what makes you you valuable because your time matters. So I think just understanding who who you're dealing with and where they're coming from way more than you think you you need to. If you're in a position where you can see that the prospect is going to walk and it's going to diminish your chance to close them by 50%, but this is like you said, something that they absolutely need. You step up and you abs you just lay it out. Th this is what this is what's going to happen. This is what we need to do and these are the outcomes. But it's it's totally like I I usually relate it a lot to the Navy Seals. They do this training exercise um where they float to the bottom of the the pool. It's called a drown pool, drown proofing exercise where they tie their arms and their their legs together. They say you've got to survive in the pool for 5 minutes. And obviously the paradox is the more you struggle, you think you're going to have to tread water, but you're sinking, you're burning oxygen. The way through is to actually let go completely and to to drop to the bottom of the pool and bounce back up and to get that air and then drop to the bottom of the pool and bounce back up. And it's the similar pattern in sales when you've got that rhythm of I know that you need this. I can sense that. But I've also and I think that's where you can bring the stories and the social proof to life. But it has to come from almost your heart. It has to come from a deep place of, look, I got you and I'm advising you like I would advise my best friend. And they have to feel that, right? That's that's probably the difference between the Cardones and the the Belffords. Like that it's I would be saying this to my best friend, but you're leveraging me for my expertise here. and and and that means that I'm not asking you necessarily to buy the highest thing on the wrong, but I am asking you to get involved and to to move with me.
>> To create momentum.
>> To create momentum.
>> Yeah, momentum is everything in sales, right? I mean, I think that the we have a I do a negotiation where we do this give scorecard, right? Where we map out all the gives, all the things our clients ask of us, information, discounts, proposals, all that fun stuff. And then all the gets, what we want, B, medic, whatever you want to put in there. And then we point score. And when somebody after five, after five in return, there's kind of a foundational component of an objective way to look at negotiations to then get to the art where we can ask the right questions and know how to ask. Um, and with that, you know, from a preparation standpoint, you talk a lot about in your book like, you know, preparing for the negotiations, understanding your walk away live, um, preparing for objections, uh, and and thinking through them. Let's talk about what kind of prep do you do? So like in a scenario, there's role plays, there's all these different things. But and and I think this is where we could potentially add AI because you talk a lot about how AI can help you prep, but it can't help you action, right? So what is the prep for a negotiation? Say you're going in to, you know, deliver a proposal or into a negotiations with a corporate client and you have your notes and you have your information about the business and everything else. What is the what is the checklist for you to prep?
>> I really want to know who who I'm dealing with as much as possible and and multiple stakeholders, right? It's it's typically there'll be multiple decision makers in the room. I want to understand the context, the leverage and have that foresight so that there's no fear leading the way and I can actually understand the pressures and the likely objections ahead of time. And that's absolutely where AI can help. It can streamline all of that in minutes to get that kind of counterparty intelligence from everything, right? You can dump all your emails in there, the LinkedIn, the public interviews, all of this. And you can ask them, right, based on this, like, what is the psychological state, the motivational profile, the disbehavioral profile, like who is this person? Because I'm looking to connect with them and I'm looking to identify areas of connection. So ahead of time, I want to be able to float those ideas of who I'm a bit like when we started this conversation. Hey, I'm from Nottingham. I'm from Sherwood Forest. Like maybe I support Nottingham Forest football team. Oh, which team do you support? Like, we get those moments of interaction because I'm lowering the boundaries and that that emotional temperature in the room. And then I'm able to increase likability, which is very important just from a relationship standpoint. So all of this to say that yes, I'll be leveraging AI as my sparring partner. I'll be getting it to do scenario planning. I'll ask it to be behave like a disgruntled CFO or someone that's going to pick apart my strategy and I'll plug it all in. Really, I think the biggest thing that most negotiators fail to do and and they will fail to do most of what we just said. They will listen to this and then not do any of this assuming that they can just wing it. [clears throat] And I know this because I've been there. I'm at the coalface. I've been there. I've seen it. And it's it's not pretty. And it it doesn't matter because people don't learn from that. So you want it to remove your emotional blind spots. You want AI to help you say, look, what are my emotional triggers? Which assumptions might be emotional and which might be biased? Which things in this email, things in the way I communicate is defensive? Like these are all things that if you can start to hone in your preparation, when it happens in the moment and you get that objection, the one you're expecting, you can instead of resistance, you can almost relax into it and know there's nothing here to push against. And then that's where the curiosity can lead.
>> The curiosity factor here when you talk about curiosity because a lot of times objections are surface level, right? We don't have the budget, this, you know, don't have time, don't have the resources, whatever.
>> No info. Yeah.
>> There's the approach, you know, there's techniques on how to handle objections, those type of things. And I think the techniques lead to I used to roll my eyes at techniques cuz I'm like, "Oh god, what are we 1985 all over again?" But the thing that I appreciate about the techniques, at least when I went through them, was I always did whatever it was. I just never knew the label of it, right? So when I took a training and they labeled the technique, I was like, "Oh, that's what that that is." And and therefore it was a lot easier for me to be proactive about thinking through how to address them based on that technique. And one of them is obviously the clarification technique, which is you just ask, "Can you help me understand like what do you mean by that?" Those type of things. So where does genuine curiosity hit? I guess it comes back to your authenticity and everything else, but there's asking questions just to ask questions to kind of use a technique to to hold back whatever is going like you said, kind of get contentious. And then there's the genuine factor of like, can we just talk about this? Like you would set up all these things. Where is the line for you of of the technique leading to the outcome that you're looking for, right? The the curiosity and that type of thing.
>> For me, I think you've got to manage your internal self-talk. Like it's very easy to sit on a podcast like this and we we go back and forth and have a nice conversation about the objections. And when it's happening to each one of us, it triggers us. And it's like we I can sit here and say, do this, do this, do this. And it so I've got to the first step is always to reframe, right? I've got to change the meaning of the objection that triggers me because it's specific to me. So it's it's annoyed me. It's got me. And in order to reframe that meaning, I want to be thinking about, well, this is, yeah, this is information. It's data. It's actually revealing what they care about. So, I also need to start to reduce my emotional response to that because I'm starting to if I don't, I'm giving away what I care about. And this isn't about being combative in negotiation. I don't believe in that. I believe in collaboration. I believe that you can expand the pie and that's exactly how you're going to create more value. But it's really important to take that distinction between this is an opportunity to lead by reframing the meaning of what their objection is. And so they're actually telling you what matters. At that point, you shift from emotion to strategy. So negotiation strategy. Then you can refocus and direct your attention and you can ask yourself [snorts] what matters most right now? Like what is the focal point? And so this is where I think the curiosity comes in that you match with the right tone. If you're just going to jump in and start asking questions like you say and peppering with questions, a a lot of people can sense that you're just digging because you don't know. And I think this is where you've got to actually balance this with the preparation that you've done to re to really hit home and go because you you really want to rebuild value at at the end of the day. If it's a cost objection or if it's an authority objection, I've got to get sign off from my boss. What whatever it is. Can you send all more information over? Like there's a time pressure. Like they're really fobbing you off in a polite way. What you need to do is step through that and rebuild the value. And the only way you can do that is if you actually uncover their real concern. And I think that's where you create curiosity. That's the exact moment. But you you've you your nervous system is centered. Your nervous system is unattached to the outcome. And you can focus on process, not outcome. So then you shift from this overwhelmed state to intention. And at that point, you can re-engage and lead that conversation forward.
>> You mentioned about the collaborative approach, right? The non-combative approach where I totally agree with you, right? The win-win and what makes sure there's value across the board. But what do you do with people who aren't like that, like that don't have a good intention? So, for instance, you have a great job with your champion, whatever it is, they're you're on the same page. And then they flip you over to the CFO or the procurement who's just going to beat the 111 [ __ ] out of you, has no interest in in a relationship with you, wants to do everything over email, uh, doesn't even give you the honor of having a conversation with them face to face because they know that that's relationship development. There's there's variables there that they can't control. So, how do you manage those negotiations?
>> Yeah, I I think you've got to be very careful and you've got to you've got to realize that they are going to manipulate you in ways that they of course are going to pick up the phone and tell you that what you put in front of them sucks and you need and everyone else is 20 points below you and you've got to come in if you ever want to see us again and if you want this business. So, it's about expecting the objection so that it's not a confrontation. And again, this is where it's important that you're building those relationships across the organization, but also leveraging AI, right? Because AI can help you predict those tailwinds, predict those headwinds, those challenges, and start forging a narrative that then allow you those moments to explore deeper. And I think again, going back to human connection because we all know they won't want to. So my tactical advice is to start showing up where they will show up. Start being at those conferences. Go go go to the things and the places where they will be. Create the moment to build that connection because human if you do that and if you can break through that almost facade of, I am a bully and I am the top dog here and I get my way. And then you can demonstrate value above and beyond because obviously just getting hit on price isn't always the best way to create the most value in any negotiation. And so you need the skill is then to be able to demonstrate that without needing it to happen, without being desperate.
>> So let's pair that with the the walk away line, like going in prepared, knowing kind of I I agree with some of the stuff that I read where you talk about knowing kind of when it when it's just not worth it, right? Just to walk away at a certain. The challenge I thought that then there's nuance with that, right? Because I watch Shark Tank here in the US and there's it in London as well. Um, and it's funny because it's the say it's the walk away line of, you know, whatever 20% for $200,000 with my business, right? Um, but then it get and and they start at 30 and you start at this and and 20 is your walk away line, but then it comes to 21. It comes or 23 and you're just like, [ __ ] it's right [ __ ] there. Like, h fine. You know, like if that's really what it's going to take, fine. So I guess what's your again philosophy on on the flexibility of that walk away line and should you because there are so many variables in in negotiations, should you come up with different flexible options if you will that don't necessarily have a hard deadline of below 20% or something like that?
>> I love that. I love that idea. I love that question the way you. Yeah. I and I do I love it because it's it's what it is. Negotiation is the art of possibility. And so therefore, if you're going to have these hard and fast rules that you stick by no matter what under even exceptional circumstances. It's not, yes, they're principles, but I think at the same time, I think principles, the skill and the art of negotiation is knowing when to to be flexible in that hard and fast rule. These are guidelines. So understanding your BATNA and then getting AI to start giving you creative options. That's the point, right? AI can help you now as a co-pilot to expand your creativity in what multi-year deals will look like in different volume tiers and give you those points where you maybe again, it's a trade. it's a trade and you may be able to build in to build in value if it's 1% over and I and this is something you need and there's like I would say you're definitely taking it, but you you've got to you've got to know why and you've got to be able to trust your gut in that because as long as you're centered in the fact that you've done this and you know the reasons why. I think it's when people get incongruent to that and then they get what we were talking about before where they're absolutely getting smashed because they they're getting moved all over the place and they're moving the dial on all the different levers and they don't know why and where and how and now they've lost control. That's that's a problem. So, it's definitely about mapping out that value and building out that value ladder, that concessions ladder that you would actually say, well, I actually rank giving away 1% more equity for this expertise and maybe we can get this is our ask in return. So that you know that ahead of time so you're not flustered. So that it's not so it's like a contingency, but it's it's it's more about if we're lucky enough, if this scenario presents itself because we're in the spirit of collaboration and building something awesome together, this is what we would ask for. This is what would make it magic for us. This is what would seal the deal. And so you can be confident in that because you've done the work. you've done the planning beforehand to understand your BATNA or your zone of, you know, I don't really like all these terms, but they're just good to anchor people in what you need to be thinking about.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think cuz the the walk away line was an interesting concept for me because it's funny that when you don't define it, you have we all have one, period. And and and it's and it's unfortunate that a lot of times it's subjective and it's subconscious. So, cuz we've all been in negotiations where it's like, okay, fine, I'll give you that, I'll give you that, I'll give you that. And then it kind of crosses this this imaginary line in our head where it stops it it starts feeling unfair, right? And and fair, like Chris Voss always said, the worst four-letter word that you know in negotiations. And and once it stops feeling fair, we actually start reacting poorly and it has a negative impact on the rest of the negotiations because now I'm getting short with you. I'm not, I'm not, you know, I'm responding, taking longer. So, I guess it's that defining the line so it doesn't happen anyways, but then having flexibility and options that you can present from a preparation standpoint. Is that what I'm hearing from you?
>> Oh, the way you and and fairness is is a great great thing to throw out there. The way you just articulated that is exactly how I how I think about it. You want to be you want to be a good deal for me and a good deal for you. It doesn't want to and that doesn't mean it is win-win in the exact proportions, but what it means is is you're not doing a bad deal that you end up resenting and you end up wishing you hadn't done. There's nothing worse. Like, it's much better to walk away than do that deal that you know basically cost cost you but also forced you to go against all of your principles and this uh this this imaginary line that that feels rubbish. So definitely start to to understand what your actual walk away line is is uh paramount. Do you feel so let's go back to the AI thing. It's a real interesting world right now with this because you can role play, you can, you know, from a sales standpoint, you can do a whole bunch of stuff. You got the best sales consultant out there. I'm sure with you. I don't know how long you've been putting your content online, but I've been doing it for 20 years. You can go on ChatGPT right now and say, coach me like John Barers and it will um, so that's, you know, and I think it's a superpower for sales reps. My and but everybody talks about AI and how it's replacing sales reps and all this. I'm not worried about all those tools or or all the claiming to replace sales reps. What I'm worried about is when the client wakes up and realizes they don't need us that much anymore because they can do just like we're talking about prep for this and all these other things. They can do the exact same thing and they can go out and say, you know, find pricing for other customers, whatever it is, leverage every single thing about your business. So, I guess have you come up against that yet? Like, how are you coaching against that? The preparation that the client's going to have for the negotiations and and does it come back to authenticity in that relationship?
>> Yeah. Know that's a really good point because the point there is that AI, it's AI plus human. If you don't start investing in getting into AI, you're going to get left behind. You you're going to be mediocre because the other party will have done exactly what we're suggesting on this call from their lens. So they're just going to be able to, I don't even like the word outmaneuver, but they're just going to have more more depth and more thought to their process at least more efficiently. Doesn't mean that it's necessarily stress-tested and right. The data that's gone into it is is correct. I always think that the biggest thing or needle-moving thing you can do in this age of disruption is go back to trust. And De Soto said there were four elements of trust building and I think this is the rarest commodity. So, I would say, great, they've done their research, they've done their, you've done yours. Great. We're going to have a great conversation here. But there's four elements of trust building. And the first is humanity. Does this salesperson, negotiator demonstrate empathy and kindness towards me? Then transparency. So, do they openly share information with me? Do I feel that? Reliability. Do they consistently deliver on their promises? and capability. Do they deliver quality products? And my belief is that reliability and capability, most organizations will have at least the top-tier organizations. If you're delivering solid value in an ethical way that's producing high ROI, you've you're going to do what you say you're going to do and you're going to develop some kick-ass products. Where we as negotiators, salespeople can really move the the needle is in the humanity piece. Do they understand me and my world? And the transparency piece, which I think is the bridge to everything right now. If you can master trust building right now, you can out-human AI. And you can I think this is going to be like like you said, you're not scared of AI replacing salespeople. Like that's not it. Like it's and human connection is all that's going to be left. So you better become a master at it. This is the time. If there was ever a time, it's actually now in this digital course, digital-centric world, in this AI-centric world, it's it's the time to double down and that's how you you win because you build the collaboration. But to know those four elements. So with transparency, let's talk about price. Um, there's a question that I have that about sales reps and empowering sales reps as an organization to know like where'd you get your price? So it comes from this like, okay, so how'd you get your pricing? You know, that type of thing. And and a lot of times it's better to have the rep not know and the price is the price and value. Let's focus on that. The other times it's the question is is should the rep know details of where the pricing and how it was generated and what they do with their investments so they can explain that? And because this brings up recently where a woman, you know, somebody was negotiating with me and it I wasn't negotiating with ultimate power, I was negotiating with kind of the go-betweens. And she immediately comes at me with starting to break down my hourly rate. And, you know, she's like, cuz I gave her a bundled package and she's like, "Well, you know, from my understanding, 6 hours and if we only did this and so we're only using 25%." And I just stopped. I go, "Look, I'm sorry. That's not how the price works. That that's not how my pricing works." And I use the analogy of she's like, "Well, then your hourly rate is, you know, $300 an hour." And I was like, or $3,000 an hour. And I was like, "That's not the way this I'm like, have you ever heard of the story of the guy who saved the town?" And she was like, "What?" I go, "The, you know, there was a nuclear reactor that was going to blow up, right? And there was one guy in town that they called to help fix it. And the guy shows up and everybody's panicking and he looks around for about 5 minutes and he walks over to a screw and he turns the screw and all of a sudden the nuclear reactor stops and everybody saves the town. And everybody's so thankful for him. And the person goes, 'Oh, thank you. How much do we owe you?' And he goes, 'A million dollars.' The guy's like, 'Are you [ __ ] me? Those five like five minutes that took you five minutes to turn that screw?' He's like, 'Yeah, I charge you 10 bucks to turn that screw. I charge you $999,990 for the 20 years of experience it took me to learn what screw to turn.'" And she was like, "I appreciate that." So, I I use that and and look, I'm I'm like, "I know what I bring to the table. I know what your needs are. I go, I can work and we can get flexible here, but please don't start to dissect this into an hourly rate conversation because it's just not the way it works."
>> That was
>> that and that that moved it through to the story.
>> Yeah. So, she she she kind of grinned because she was like, "Oh, I get I go, "Look, if you want any trainer like that that's just been doing this for a couple of years, by all means, they charge $500 an hour, $200 an hour. That's what you're looking for. You told me your outcome was this. The impact of the problem that we're trying to solve is this. I've been doing this for 30 years. I know the problem. I know the issue. Let's get creative and tell me and go going back to your point, what's the real problem here? Is the real problem that you can't afford this right now because it's end of year or whatever it is?" So, is it a payment term thing or is it like a doubt thing? You don't think I'm going to bring that type of value. Like, what is the issue here? And we started to unpack it a little bit more. So, that to me is, you know, the the I didn't give her details because none of your [ __ ] business about my price. Like, I came up with it. It's relatively industry standard. I'm not. So, I guess going all the way back to my original point of the question is, how much detail does a rep need to a rep need to know about pricing to address the transparency conversation as it relates to a CFO, you know, procurement using that like, how'd you come up with your price? I mean, it's software, it's SaaS, like one extra license isn't going to cost you anything. What the [ __ ]? Right? So, how do you how do you approach that or how do you sales team with that with that information?
>> I love that and I I can see why that worked because it was real, right? You you brought that back and you just like, let's let's stop this right now. Let me tell you what's real. And and she could feel that and then you brought it back and you you were confident in the way you can for 30 years I've done this. This is this is sort of this is what we're doing like I can help you. What I would say in for helping others here is to go back to the person that you're dealing with again, going back to that DISC profile. If you're dealing with a steadiness person and you start telling a long story that doesn't necessar not to your story. Work on me. I'm an influence type person like that story. J like I'm having that like let's go. You've just sold me. But for a steadiness type person, they're going to want guarantees. They're going to want the numbers. And I think that's where the skill of the salesperson can be to empower them. And that's that was a bit like when they go back to BA, right? Some people would want to understand the nuts and bolts. Others would just want to know at the macro level through a story what deals went wrong, what what are they doing with that and the dodgy like what's happened. And then what went right. And because they they want to own that story to tell it internally and to become the expert. So knowing who you're dealing with is an influence person. They want to build the relationship. They're optimistic. They want to make friends. Is it a dominance person? They just want to make as much profits. They they just want to get straight to the point. So they don't want any waffle. And again, being armed as a salesperson to adapt to each kind of personality type and knowing if you're outgoing or not or you're task-oriented, like being able to do that. I think having that adaptability in the moment on the fly and then knowing your numbers because if you are talking to a CFO and they probably are a steadiness or a compliance type person, you you want to be able to outline that if you have to if you get put in that position and then weave in the human, which is what you did. you weaved in that human to just zoom out a bit and go, hey,
>> what are we really talking about here?
>> I love that story. Let's go to let's so help me answer this question, right? The the procurement person that literally said, and because I think you and I, we've been around the block. We have business acumen, we have experience, we have some confidence, you know, we can do the nuance things of reading people because we understand NLP and DISC and all that fun stuff. But for that 22, 23-year-old kid, right? Who who is trying to negotiate with effectively a professional negotiator? Like there, how'd you come up with your price? Salesforce, you're $1,500 a license for your software. Like, it doesn't cost you a dime extra to give me an extra license. So, I I want 80% off. I want 50% off. So, how'd you come up with your price? What would you say to somebody who like punches you right in the mouth with, "How'd you come up with your price?" as a 22-year-old kid selling software to a CFO?
>> Yeah, that I I totally get it and it can be intimidating because I've been there and I was intimidated. I was in those rooms and that's exactly how they would come across knowing that you're 24 and just literally like, how are you going to answer this? And they'd almost do it to watch you squirm. I think that's why you've got to weave in your own flare, right? If you're literally you in that moment as a and you own it and you go, look, and you own the situation, it can actually weave in some humor there to start to break down the boundaries to then break through. Because ultimately that person, they're being a hard ass on purpose to try and leverage 80% off. And just that would be a deal you probably shouldn't do because it's going to feel bad and you're not going to get the high fives around the office that you think you're you everyone knows it's a bad deal. So principally, you know, that's not going to happen. But in doing that, in knowing that you anchor to those principles and use the principles to guide you through it. And you go, I don't want to be out of a job. I can't be. Look, are you going to hire me? Like, and in doing it that way, you actually start to impress them and get more respect from them rather than taking it for what it is and arcing up or being defensive about it or trying to justify with $1,500 and this is why. I think every like they know they've got to pay that if they want to play the game. They're just using the dominance that they have. So go the other way. What are the things? Right. Cool. If you want that, this is what it's going to look like. Be be that person. Be like, I I get it, John. I get it. Like if I was in your shoes, I'd be doing exactly the same thing. That's why like, let me take you out to like the scar here. Let me lay out to you the other stuff. What else is important to you in terms of criteria other than just price? And you find the thing that matters more to them than price. And then you lay
Everything you've got, you anchor to that to then start building. And they will, if they're decent, if they're not a manipulator, there's someone you actually want to do business with. They'll start to be impressed by you. You'll start to sell them because they'll start to believe in your belief. So, trans sales is the transfer of belief.
Yeah.
Yeah. I call it the transfer of enthusiasm, right? You believe that strongly in what you do, and I, and I, because I, going back to, I mean, we're here at, you know, we're recording this on the 2nd of December, and I can just hear profitability getting sucked out of organizations in the next 30 days here. Because professional, especially, forget about like the new deal business, it's the renewal coming up. It's the end of the, like that's the one that I, I, I think customer success, invest in account management needs a lot more skills on negotiation because they actually do have leverage in that scenario, unless their product is [ __ ]. Obviously, if there's tons of use case issues and all that other stuff, you're screwed. You're not, you're probably going to have to discount to keep that client. But again, they probably shouldn't be a client of yours if there's that many issues.
So, um, I guess let's think about like that, 'cause it's always the third party that comes in to negotiate. Not your friend, not your sponsor, not your champion, not your, you know, coat, whatever. It's always the black box, you know, Wizard of Oz guy behind the screen. And, and it's like [ __ ], where do you play hardball in, in an existing account that you, that you are, you are providing the value that, that you are providing, not too many issues. It's coming to the end of the year, and you get the email that goes out that says, across the board, all vendors, 30% off, or else we're not doing [ __ ]. And that happened like, I think it was around, I heard about this happening, I think it was COVID, I forget when it was, where CFOs would just arbitrarily send an email to every vendor that said, knock 30% off, or else we're not doing business with you anymore, and we're shutting everything off. It's like, what the [ __ ]? Like, how do you go back to your champion? Do you go back to, do the prep, all the research to justify all the value you've brought to them? How do you handle that [ __ ] off scenario there and be willing to walk away?
Yeah, I think, I think that's great. I think show them the cliff. They send the email there, you've got 30% to be knocked off. You're like, oh, that's interesting, because we were going up 30% this year. Let me, and you start to play that through. You start to show them, well, I've got other options. This is when knowing that having a full pipeline, having other clients, not having a whole book that's just stacked on one other client that you need. You need to start getting that diversification in your book of business. It's very, very important. And I think, of course, no, I think if we just break down what you said, knowing that those emails are going to come, knowing that there will be people in those roles in other companies that will fold and will accept the deal. They will panic at this time of year and they'll just need to clutch. You're not going to, if you are in that position, the best thing you can do is not be desperate. Not be then, 'cause they will chase you right down. Like, I would hold the line and wait longer so that those people that do accept, get that, gets filled, then he's done his job, then she's done her job, then they can rest easy and then close the deal at a higher rate. I think there's a lot to be said for knowing your value, knowing what you bring to the table, and just arming yourself with that information before you having one of those high stakes calls, because it's, it's not complicated. It's the emotions and the catastrophizing and the pressure and other voices and the what ifs that makes the negotiation feel like everyone's watching, and feel, and they, obviously, sometimes are.
It can.
Yeah. That when you have the information, when you're armed and you know what you bring, like in any situation, you're willing to ask for it. Ask for things you don't think you can get. Make it a habit to do that. Make it a habit to not oversell, not overjustify, not ask for validation and approval for that pricing, for to to say what you need to say. And I think that's where something I learned from the days in Barca was because it, it kind of had to be that way. You do have to hold the line, and you do have to be strong, and you do have to always stick to that line, because there really isn't much wiggle room. This is the deal that's there, and if you want to play ball, we're going to have to figure out a way to do that. So, let's talk about those solutions.
Yeah, I think it, and it's always comes down to the person, if they have genuine intent to to do good business. Like, I got no problem negotiating with people. It's the people that are nefarious, the people that are coming in with no context, with no, like, I'll tell you one of my favorite, I'm sure you'll appreciate this. It happened to me just recently, too. It was another story. My favorite thing is when a third party comes in at the end, CFO, procurement, whatever, uh, to be the heavy.
And negotiate the price of my training when I'm training negotiation training.
Yes.
This is literally how, and this is how.
They want to be harder on you because of that, right?
But this, but this is the beauty of it. Like, I don't even have to negotiate because I go like, yes. They, they're like, "Oh, all right, John. So, you know, looking forward to working with you, you know, so, so what kind of wiggle room do we got here?" And my direct answer is, none. And they're like, "What? Wow, come on, man. There's always wiggle room." I go, "Can I, can I ask you something? Do you know what you're buying from me?" And they'll be like, "Yeah, yeah, sales train." I go, "Do you know what kind of sales training you're buying from me?" And he's like, "Yeah, uh, negotiation." I go, "Exactly. So, if I gave you a discount right now, why the [ __ ] would you hire me?"
And it stops them dead in their tracks every time because they're like,
"Oh, fuck." Uh, yeah. I go, "Look, I could, I could cut 50% off right now, but that's what the training is going to be. I'm going to walk in and tell everybody, all right, take all your deals, cut 50% off, and make it rain, baby." And they're like, "Man, you're an asshole." I'm like, "Yeah, I know, but so are you." Because you're the person that you, that your reps are getting the [ __ ] kicked out of them for arbitrary, you don't know the details. You don't understand. You haven't been part of the process. Any of that stuff. And all you're trying to do is cut my price. That's it. So, I know I'm an [ __ ] for being direct with you about this, but so are you.
Right.
And a lot of times they like, sometimes that doesn't work. Sometimes that's like, big old [ __ ] off, whatever. And I only really do that when it's a deal that, to your point, worth losing. Like, like if I don't get it, it is what it is. I want to work with, I always say, I want your business. I don't need it.
Mhm.
Because if I need it, I do shady [ __ ]. If I want it, I sell the right way. So, I love that component of negotiations, but, but I, I have the luxury of doing that. You have the luxury of doing that. A lot of reps don't. And a lot of reps, unfortunately, leadership puts it on them that every deal is, is an important deal. Every renewal is an important renewal, and it's just not true. You know, we need to force rank these, and we need to see which ones are worth it and which ones aren't. Even if we have a bad pipeline, it sets the wrong psychology in motion completely. If there's this, um, this heightened emotion around every single deal and winning every single dollar. I love that though, because you and I do think reps out there can leverage that with the transparency piece. You just told them the reality of what this is. Like, how good would I be if I didn't, like, if I let you just negotiate with me just because of like, it, it, people can use that in their own business, like, and, and just take that transparency and then build trust through it because it builds credibility.
Have you ever read my friend Todd Capone's book called The Transparency Sale?
I haven't. No.
Oh, dude, you should pick it up. You'll love it, just based on what you're saying. Like, he has this great way of negotiating where it's, it's he presents the solution. So, basically, he says, "Look, here's the deal. Here's what you asked for. And here's rate card. Here's the price. Now, I know you're going to want some flexibility here. So, here's the levers that we can pull. Here's what's important to me. And what he says is what I'm willing to pay for, not willing to give a discount for. Here's what I'm willing to pay for." Um, longer term relationships, I'm willing to pay for. So, if you want a two, three, four year, we can get creative with that. Larger size deals, obviously, I'm willing to pay for. So, if you want instead of 50 licenses, you want to do 100 licenses, we can create that. Um, predictability of forecast, which is I think a really unique way of saying, can you close by the end of the month? He's like, we value our ability to predict revenue. So, if you can help me predict revenue, I'm willing to pay for that, right? And he goes through this process and he's like, cool. So, which ones do you want to play with here? And then it becomes this very transparent game of, what if we did three years instead of two, and what if we did this instead of that? And it's like, okay, well, based on that, here's your price. So, there's no like hiding behind the curtain here. It's like, this is my price, and these are the levers we have to pull, and I absolutely.
The frame, he's controlled the frame, right? It's.
I'm going to get that book.
Yeah, it's called Transparency Sale. He has Transparency Leader, and then he's just launching another one specifically on those four things. Transparency Sale is about the wholesale. He's launching a new one, I forget what it's called, but right on, like the four pillars of what's something out of it. But it's, it's a really cool book, and he's, and he's actually a great historian, too. You should check him out. He's got, uh, he does all this old school sales stuff, like history, like 1906, and, you know, how we're all like, oh my god, AI is going to change everything, and it's going to replace sales reps. And he pulls up an article from 1917 about how the printing press, everybody said, literally verbatim, the exact same thing, sales reps are never going to be used again. Your printing press is going to change everything, right? Or whatever. So, you should follow.
Okay, I'm gonna do that.
And speaking of books, Tim, we got to wrap things up because you got a new one. You got a few, you already have a couple written, but you have one coming out, right? That's, uh, coming up. Could you talk about, uh, talk about the books, where we can find, because I love this conversation. You could keep talking about it, but I want to leave some for people to go learn more from you. Uh, so talk to us about the books and where they can find out more information about you.
Totally. I run a training academy called The Negotiator's Edge. We train sales and negotiation professionals. I have a few different books, as you, as you mentioned. I've got The First Domino, and this is really how to become an opportunity magnet. So, really thinking about first clients, first products, first services, breaking through and getting that first flagship client that sets everything in motion. And then the.
Sorry, I, I, that title, I forgot. We could have a whole conversation around that one about getting your first. And then the next book is Magnetic Influence. It will come out next year, uh, halfway through next year. It's all about how to influence and maximize persuasion in, in the AI-centric world that we live, where really from the connection standpoint and the human levers that we can build.
I love it. Uh, on that note, and just coming all the way back to Singapore, how, how universal is negotiation? This is the last question I have for. How universal, like, how, how you negotiate here in the US versus Singapore versus, you know, like, if you were to give me a percentage of what's common across the board and what is different across the board, what would you say?
Culture, culture matters when it comes to negotiation.
There's a huge amount of nuance, uh, especially living out here.
Traveling into Manila, or Kuala Lumpur, or Jakarta, there's, there's.
The relationships are valued in different ways, and you show that value in different ways. So, I'd say there's at least 45% like difference, variation, nuance. There's always cultural nuance, and that means there's always skills that we can be learning. I, I think that's the biggest thing that I want people to take away is just, just get involved. Get the reps going, because if you're not objection handling every day, like, you can read all you want, you can listen. Like, you've got to get out there. And I, I, I've seen that example of the, the guy that split the class in two, and there was a pottery class, and they basically, look, you guys will get the best grade if you produce the highest quality pot. Like, one pot that's super high quality, exquisite, you're going to, that's who's going to get the best grade. The other side plus, like, this is just about volume and weight. Like, whoever makes the most pots, they're going to get the highest grade. And it was the guys that actually made the most pots, they also made the best pots because they were in clay all the time. They were usually, they were experimenting. They were doing weird stuff. They were inventing new ways. They were trying all these different ways. It's the same thing with negotiation, sales. Get out there and try. Do the reps. Fail and move on. Fail and adapt. It's the same thing.
I can't, I can't agree with you more on that one. Right. You can't, I mean, you can role play as much as you want. You can do, you know, you can practice, but unless you're out in the field and you're doing it. That's why, that's the last point. That's why sales to me is such a beautiful profession because it's the only profession that you can literally practice everywhere. Everywhere. You practice negotiations everywhere. You can go to the restaurant. You can go to the hotel and ask for an upgrade. You can go to the restaurant and ask for free dessert. You can, whatever it is. And you can, if you have kids, you negotiate with your kids every day, all day. And if you shift that mentality of, ew, sales, gross, to skill, life, proactive, all of a sudden, a lot of things change because you can start to see the pieces and then you can apply them to work.
Such a meta skill. Absolutely.
Love it. Awesome, Tim. Well, again, like I said, we could probably keep talking for hours here, but let's leave a little bit for the audience to to go read your book and find out more information about you. Where, where can they find you? LinkedIn. What's the easiest way to get in touch with you here?
Yeah, website, timjscastle.com. The JS is for the, the inventors in the family. And then, yeah, Instagram, same thing. Tim JS Castle.
Awesome, Tim. Well, thank you very much for coming on the show and appreciate you staying up a little late for me here, and, uh, I, uh, really enjoyed the conversation.
No, thank you. Much gratitude to you, and hope to stay in touch.
Yeah, likewise. And everybody, I hope you enjoy the conversation as much as I did. And like I always say at the end of all these podcasts, go out there and make somebody smile today, 'cause no matter how bad your day is going, or how bad you think it went, if you make somebody smile today, you know you had a good day. And the world needs a lot more of that right now. So, thank you all very much, and I will see you on the other side.
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